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vinsight4u8
Dec 9th 2011, 05:07 AM
If so, then Rev. 12 would have Satan chasing those in Rev. 14:12.

The ones who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev. 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev. 14:16
...and the earth was reaped.

vinsight4u8
Dec 9th 2011, 05:10 AM
I'm wanting people to see if they think Rev. 14:16 is the scene where John saw the rapture take place. This part is listed along with the martyrs that were written about a few verses earlier -that Satan comes down with his wrath time on. It also shows the time of the Rev. 13 beast, because it refers to the patience of the saints. I want to use this to help show the order to the middle part of Revelation.

Such as -the temple in heaven opens in Rev. 15, so Rev. 14 can't have any angels coming out it, till after that point in time.

Rev. 12 shows Satan will chase those of Rev. 14, and then the earth is reaped.
Rev. 14:17
And another angel came out of the temple in heaven...

/This is impossible for John to see, unless the temple opened first in Rev. 15:5.

"And after that I looked, and behold, the temple...in heaven was opened."

summary
Rev. 12 -appeared a great wonder
appeared another wonder
a great red dragon

wonders/signs part over
John sees a war going on in heaven.

Rev. 13
...the dragon...
Rev. 15
another sign

15:5
..the temple...in heaven was opened.
15:6
And the seven angels came out of the temple...

14:17
And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven...

Rev. 12,13,15,14, 8:1,11:19a,16-22.

Rev. 14 eventually heads back in time to show when the ones will be punished that persecuted the saints that had patince and faith in Jesus. They were to have patience (ch 13) in knowing that those who kill with the sword will be killed with the sword, etc. God would punish the wicked after the time of persecuting the saints was over. Rev. 14 shows that time is over, and it leads up to the opening of the 7th seal, which leads to the seven used to be trumpet angels show up, the plague list goes out at the end of Rev. 11:19, and soon the vials of God's wrath will begin in chapter 16.

Diggindeeper
Dec 9th 2011, 06:28 AM
For a long time I have seen that as when the earth is reaped. It also fits with Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

It also shows the separating of the wicked from the saints.

Also, Jesus said, "No man knows the day nor the hour, not even the angels." Notice the angels come out of the temple in heaven to TELL him when 'It is time for the earth to be reaped!" (As soon as they learn 'Its time', they run out to announce it to the one wearing golden crown, 'sitting on a cloud'.)

Notice also that first, the saints are gathered, then it appears that immediately afterward, the wicked are taken and put in the 'winepress of the wrath of God'! At the harvest time.

So, yes, to me it answers your question in the title Is the earth being reaped time in Rev. 14 - the rapture?

vinsight4u8
Dec 9th 2011, 07:43 AM
For a long time I have seen that as when the earth is reaped. It also fits with Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

It also shows the separating of the wicked from the saints.

Also, Jesus said, "No man knows the day nor the hour, not even the angels." Notice the angels come out of the temple in heaven to TELL him when 'It is time for the earth to be reaped!" (As soon as they learn 'Its time', they run out to announce it to the one wearing golden crown, 'sitting on a cloud'.)

Notice also that first, the saints are gathered, then it appears that immediately afterward, the wicked are taken and put in the 'winepress of the wrath of God'! At the harvest time.

So, yes, to me it answers your question in the title Is the earth being reaped time in Rev. 14 - the rapture?

Hi Judy,

Thanks for replying. I agree that it is the rapture. Rather than go into each of your thoughts yet, let's see if we can agree about what kills the saints just a bit ahead of the Rev. 14 time of the earth is reaped.

Rev. 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints {{So the time of Rev. 13:5-10 has to take place before the earth is reaped/v5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things...to continue forty and} two months. v 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints...v10 Here is the patience of the saints}}...they that keep the commandments of God...{{Rev. 12:17 And the dragon..went to make war with...keep the commandments of God..}}

So the dragon comes down from heaven, and the beast makes war against the saints before the earth is reaped in Rev. 14.

When the dragon comes down from heaven, what kind of woes are coming then?

Rev. 12:12
...Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down...

//We find this as to the final three trumpets.

Rev. 8:13
...Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels which are yet to sound!

//Would you say that these three final trumpets sound bringing the devil's times of woe to the earth inhabitants?
5th trumpet -an earth plague
6th trumpet- an earth plague
7th trumpet - an earth plague

//So the devil came down ahead of these, as it was woe to the sea inhabitants also, told about in Rev 12.
Do the seven trumpets bring all seven plagues before the earth is reaped in Rev. 14?
The plagues of the seven trumpets being against the >
trees, and the sea, and the final three to the earth.

Would you say that Satan's time of wrath ends before the earth is reaped in Rev. 14?

You mentioned that He is in Rev. 14 wearing one crown.
In Rev. 19 then does Jesus Christ come again as the Rider - wearing many crowns?

This means that after the trumpets end as to Satan's woes, Jesus will return wearing one crown and reap the earth?

There was nothing in Rev. 14:12-13 that showed God's wrath was yet killing anybody?
Rev. 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying, to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God...

Diggindeeper
Dec 9th 2011, 04:53 PM
Vinsight, I offer that we must also take into consideration verses 6 through 11:

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, (Reminder: the gospel shall be preached to all nations, then shall the end come.)

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. (The HOUR of his judgment IS come)

8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. (All nations...)

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Don't you agree that the wine of the wrath of God is fatal, bringing the torment of 'fire and brimstone')

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (The torment apparantly last forever.)

Then, there is this:
Rev. 14:17-19
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


Can anyone survive the 'winepress of the wrath of God'? Has anyone in all the Bible ever survived when the 'wrath of God' was sent to earth?

vinsight4u8
Dec 11th 2011, 12:07 AM
Vinsight, I offer that we must also take into consideration verses 6 through 11:

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, (Reminder: the gospel shall be preached to all nations, then shall the end come.)

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. (The HOUR of his judgment IS come)

8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. (All nations...)

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Don't you agree that the wine of the wrath of God is fatal, bringing the torment of 'fire and brimstone')

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (The torment apparantly last forever.)

Then, there is this:
Rev. 14:17-19
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


Can anyone survive the 'winepress of the wrath of God'? Has anyone in all the Bible ever survived when the 'wrath of God' was sent to earth?

Hi Judy,
You have good depth going here. I see the winepress part as to the amount of blood that is owed by the wicked for killing the saints and Israel. It is trodden outside the city, which I guess is a normal place for a winepress. I haven't thought about this part very much as many many years ago I just figured it is about what it says in Deuteronomy 32 as to showing a nation is a vine., and when God sees that Israel's power is gone, and none shut up or left, He will take vengeance against the nations for the blood of His servants. Now, you have given me something to look at more.

At the 7th trumpet time, it shows in Rev. 11:18 that the nations were angry.
They are to blame for destroying the earth. This is the trumpet where the wrath of God will start.

Before Armageddon/
Rev 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almigthy God.
v17
...an angel...to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
v18
That ye may eat the flesh of kings..captains...mighty men...

/Rev. 14 is not where the great trib scenes actually are, but it is a lead-in to show the earth is reaped and the blood of the martrys will be paid for by the wicked. They had been told in chapter 13 that here is the patience, and they were to know that those that kill with the sword will be killed with by the sword. Rev. 14 is when John finally saw the rapture take place. In Rev. 7 he had seen the martyrs out of great tribulation, yet when asked, he didn't know where they had come from. It seems that elder realized John was wondering about it, so he asked him about them, and then told him -these are they which came out of great tribulation.They had not yet been seen in their eternal life outfits of fine linen as in Rev. 19. The seen great multitude had not yet put on eternal life. The rapture had not happened.

We can look at how the middle part of Rev. has been jumbled, if you want to.

One thing to note about the first part of Rev. 14 is that a new vision did not begin, but "a" new Lamb story did. This is not the same Lamb pictured in Rev. 5. John will run two Lamb stories in the book of Revelation.
In Rev. 14:13 we can tell that the saints/church is not reaped off of the earth, until she has kept the patience (while under the Rev. 13 beast), and kept the commandments of God (as those the dragon of Rev 12 wars against), and the 7th trumpet plague has come. Rev. 12 shows that the dragon goes after the brethren to kill them. The 5th seal martyrs are resting till their brethren come in killed as they were.
Rev. 12 shows the kingdom of God comes after the time of the brethren love not their lives unto the death, and Rev. 11 shows the kingdoms don't become His till the 7th trumpet time.
So the 5th seal is on-going in Rev. 14.
The dragon and the beast are warring against the saints.
The 5th seal martyrs are resting, as they wait for their brethren to come in slain.
The trumpets are sounding.
The nations are angry.
The 7th trumpet starts the wrath of God.

Another thing you might want to consider as to Rev. 14 is, did it come after chapter 15, when John saw it?
Why?
For several reasons.
1 - The temple was never shown open to John until chapter 15, so how could angels come out of it in chapter 14?

15:5 And after that I looked, and behold, the temple...in heaven was opened.
15:6 and the seven angels came out of the temple...

14:17
And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven...

I'll stop for now, and just tell you that I believe the seven thunders told John to make his writings hidden. They were not for his day, so jumble the events around.
I believe that is why we then hear of "the mystery of God".
John had to make things obscure in the middle part of Revelation.

Rev. 7:1
And after these things...
/So we can tell this is the proper order.

Rev. 7:9
After this...
/See the difference?
John could not say "these", as parts here are hidden.

Rev. 18:1
And after these things...
19:1
And after these things....

/Chapters 16-22 have no missing parts. Nothing from chapter 16-22 has been sealed, hidden. Every vision has been given to the readers in the same order that John had them revealed to him.

Okay, now looking at Rev. 15:5.
And after that...
/We saw that chapter 14 is out of place.