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VerticalReality
Dec 13th 2011, 07:55 PM
2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. (Emphasis Added) -- 1 Corinthians 12:2-3

This topic is really in reference to the bolded portion above. How should that passage be interpreted? What I mean is, I know all sorts of people who confess Jesus as Lord, but does that really mean they have the Holy Spirit?

markedward
Dec 13th 2011, 08:25 PM
First, I think it's obvious that the passage cannot be interpreted 100% literally. Imagine a Roman judge questioning Paul in a trial: 'So, Paul of Tarsus, do you believe that Jesus is Lord?' To which Paul responds: 'Aaaahhhahha! You said "Jesus is Lord"! You must be a Christian too!'

Simply saying the phrase 'Jesus is Lord' did not mean a person was saved. Paul's point is that those who say (i.e. confess, profess, proclaim, trust, believe) that Jesus is 'Lord' must be doing so by means of revelation from God's spirit. As in, the holy spirit has worked in that person so that they have come to the point where they trust that 'Jesus is Lord'.

But...

Within the context of the Corinthians (I'm referring to the first-century group of Christians in Corinth, not the letter itself), Paul's usage of the word 'Lord' had a very specific meaning. In the Roman perspective, to call Jesus 'Lord' meant that he was the sole ruler of the world instead of Caesar. In the Christian perspective, to call Jesus 'Lord' was virtually synonymous to calling him 'Christ', 'Messiah', 'King', 'Son of David', or 'Son of God', pointing to his role as the King of Israel and Lord of the Nations predicted in the Prophets.

Beyond that first-century context, it is terribly difficult to use Paul's statement as simply as it appears to be, because his concept of 'Lord' has been diluted and lost.

Would Mormons say that Jesus is 'Lord'? Sure. But they contradict several of Paul's teachings that were absolutely fundamental to his whole theology. Paul was adamantly monotheist; Mormons are polytheists. Paul taught that God was the eternally existent creator of all things; Mormons believe God is himself a creature, coming into existence long after creation had come to be, and that he ascended to godhood. While Mormons may say 'Jesus is Lord', they don't come even remotely close to what Paul meant by 'Jesus is Lord'.

VerticalReality
Dec 13th 2011, 09:02 PM
First, I think it's obvious that the passage cannot be interpreted 100% literally. Imagine a Roman judge questioning Paul in a trial: 'So, Paul of Tarsus, do you believe that Jesus is Lord?' To which Paul responds: 'Aaaahhhahha! You said "Jesus is Lord"! You must be a Christian too!'

Yes, I would agree it's certainly not speaking in that context. I think Paul is referring to those who genuinely believe that Jesus Christ is Lord.


Would Mormons say that Jesus is 'Lord'? Sure. But they contradict several of Paul's teachings that were absolutely fundamental to his whole theology. Paul was adamantly monotheist; Mormons are polytheists. Paul taught that God was the eternally existent creator of all things; Mormons believe God is himself a creature, coming into existence long after creation had come to be, and that he ascended to godhood. While Mormons may say 'Jesus is Lord', they don't come even remotely close to what Paul meant by 'Jesus is Lord'.

Personally, on this note I would say that Mormons are not believing on the true Christ. They are preaching a different Jesus.

I think I'm referring more in this thread toward those who believe the same things that mainstream Christianity teaches, i.e., that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He died for our sin, and that on the third day He rose from the dead, but their lifestyles wouldn't exactly be described as those such as, let's say, Jesus' disciples, for example.

Slug1
Dec 13th 2011, 09:15 PM
Well, the verse does specifically point out that the speaker is speaking "BY" the Holy Spirit and in context, Paul is about to explain the Gift of different kinds of tongues in GREAT detail.

So Paul begins to assure all the Gentiles who will be speaking in tongues as being a part of the Body of Christ, that they have no fear in that anyone WHO IS speaking BY the Holy Spirit can call Jesus, "accursed" or in other words, those who are speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit... CANNOT blasphemy Jesus. As for those who are speaking BY the Holy Spirit... can only say that Jesus is Lord.

As for the issue of Mormons... there are too many refs in the Bible about doctrines of the devil and all who have faith and belief through such doctrines are stating their profession of Christ by the flesh and not by the Holy Spirit. The demons we read about in scripture profess Jesus as the Christ... but NOT "by" the Holy Spirit do they speak this. The demons do it by their flesh, just as the judge in Mark's example, just as anyone who is not IN Christ... even though many who follow a false faith in God, are deceived into thinking that they are IN Christ.

david
Dec 13th 2011, 09:22 PM
Well, the verse does specifically point out that the speaker is speaking "BY" the Holy Spirit and in context, Paul is about to explain the Gift of different kinds of tongues in GREAT detail.

So Paul begins to assure all the Gentiles who will be speaking in tongues as being a part of the Body of Christ, that they have no fear in that anyone WHO IS speaking BY the Holy Spirit can call Jesus, "accursed" or in other words, those who are speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit... CANNOT blasphemy Jesus. As for those who are speaking BY the Holy Spirit... can only say that Jesus is Lord.

As for the issue of Mormons... there are too many refs in the Bible about doctrines of the devil and all who have faith and belief through such doctrines are stating their profession of Christ by the flesh and not by the Holy Spirit. The demons we read about in scripture profess Jesus as the Christ... but NOT "by" the Holy Spirit do they speak this. The demons do it by their flesh, just as the judge in Mark's example, just as anyone who is not IN Christ... even though many who follow a false faith in God, are deceived into thinking that they are IN Christ.

Yes, in other words, unless you were in the Spirit, you cannot truly proclaim that Jesus is Lord. It complements the statement in the same verse "no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed." Related passage is this:
“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? Romans 10:13-14

This shows that unless you believed in the Lord, you can't call on his name. If you doubt (disbelieve) while calling or asking the Lord for something, you will not receive what you ask for.
"But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways." James 1:6-8

Some Jewish exorcists tried to cast of demons, but apparently they didn't believe in Jesus so their exorcism failed.
Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists undertook to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “I adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul proclaims.” Seven sons of a Jewish high priest named Sceva were doing this. But the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I recognize, but who are you?” And the man in whom was the evil spirit leaped on them, mastered all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. Acts 19:13-16

If you believe in the Lord, your saying "Jesus is Lord" should be genuine.

Bandit
Dec 13th 2011, 09:27 PM
2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. (Emphasis Added) -- 1 Corinthians 12:2-3

This topic is really in reference to the bolded portion above. How should that passage be interpreted? What I mean is, I know all sorts of people who confess Jesus as Lord, but does that really mean they have the Holy Spirit?

I think we have to read between the lines here by incorporating what we know of Paul form his other writings. Paul does not have in mind here one who is merely giving lip-service, but one who has a sincere belief that Jesus is Lord which is reflected in how the person lives.

david
Dec 15th 2011, 12:50 AM
Some people called Jesus Lord, yet apparently they weren't calling by the Holy Spirit:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:21-23

“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? Everyone who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. But the one who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the stream broke against it, immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49

Caleb
Dec 15th 2011, 03:06 PM
So what does it mean that Jesus is ‘Lord’?

mikebr
Dec 17th 2011, 01:22 AM
How do you know whether or not people have the Holy Spirit?

ewq1938
Dec 17th 2011, 07:29 AM
2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. (Emphasis Added) -- 1 Corinthians 12:2-3

This topic is really in reference to the bolded portion above. How should that passage be interpreted? What I mean is, I know all sorts of people who confess Jesus as Lord, but does that really mean they have the Holy Spirit?

This means to not simply say the words but believe in them and accept Jesus as your Lord. Jesus is God, the son of God the Father, so Lord related to God means divine, literally God. No one can believe or truly confess that Jesus is Lord/God/Divine without the Holy Spirit.

Watchman
Dec 17th 2011, 11:31 AM
How do you know whether or not people have the Holy Spirit?
By their love...

mailmandan
Dec 17th 2011, 12:21 PM
Because of their background in pagan worship services (v. 2), some Corinthians may have had concerns about gifts empowered by the Holy Spirit in the church. Paul first assures them that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed" and also that no one can say that "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit (and therefore all who are truly born again have the Holy Spirit within them, and none should be excluded, for they all have valuable gifts for the benefit of the church). Apart from the Holy Spirit’s working, a lost man is not able to genuinely acknowledge Jesus as Lord, even though he may give "lip service" to the words.

mikebr
Dec 17th 2011, 08:15 PM
By their love...

I agree.........................:hug:

Butch5
Dec 18th 2011, 08:41 PM
2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. (Emphasis Added) -- 1 Corinthians 12:2-3

This topic is really in reference to the bolded portion above. How should that passage be interpreted? What I mean is, I know all sorts of people who confess Jesus as Lord, but does that really mean they have the Holy Spirit?

Hi VR,

I think the key here is to keep in mind that Paul is referring to a person who is speaking in the Spirit. He's not talking about someone who just says Jesus is Lord. If someone was speaking through God's Spirit, he cannot condemn Christ. Likewise if someone was speaking as a demon he could not acknowledge Jesus is Lord. So, I think the passage is to be taken very literally.