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divaD
Dec 18th 2011, 04:11 PM
Zechariah 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.
9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.

Zechariah 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
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The following is what the OP is in regards to.

Zechariah 2:8....After the glory hath he(the LORD of hosts I'm thinking) sent me(Who would this be then?) unto the nations which spoiled you

Zechariah 2:9.......and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me(Who would this be then?) .

Zechariah 2:11....and I(Who would this be referring to?) will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me(Who would this be referring to?) unto thee.

Verse 11 seems to be the more puzzling verse. It says...and I will dwell in the midst of thee. Is this meaning the one the LORD of hosts has sent, or is this meaning that it is the LORD of hosts that will dwell in the midst of thee?

Another thing I'm getting at, a lot of folks use the following and say this is speaking of more than one person.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Some claim that the LORD the King of Israel, and that his redeemer the LORD of hosts, that these are two different persons. With that in mind then, how do we square that with what Zech 2 seems to be saying? What I'm getting at, if the one the LORD of hosts has sent in Zech 2 is the Messiah, and that this wouldn't be the LORD of hosts, and if there are 2 separate persons in Isaiah 44:6, one being the Father, the other being the Son, then which is which?

quiet dove
Dec 18th 2011, 04:56 PM
This is how it seems to me...

Zec 2:8 For thus says the LORD of hosts(God the Father): "He(God the Father) sent Me(God the Son) after glory, to the nations(Gentiles) which plunder you(Israel); for he(Gentiles) who touches you(Israel) touches the apple of His(God the Father) eye. 9 For surely I(God the Son) will shake My(God the Son) hand against them(Gentiles), and they(Gentiles)shall become spoil for their servants(Israel). Then you will know that the LORD of hosts(God the Father)has sent Me(God the Son). 10 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion!(Israel) For behold, I(God the Son) am coming and I(God the Son) will dwell in your(Israel) midst," says the LORD(God the Father**), 11 "Many nations(Gentiles) shall be joined to the LORD(God the Father) in that day, and they shall become My(God the Son) people. And I(God the Son) will dwell in your(Israel) midst. Then you(Israel) will know that the LORD of hosts(God the Father) has sent Me(God the Son) to you(Israel). 12 And the LORD(God the Father) will take possession of Judah as His(God the Father) inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all flesh, before the LORD(God the Father), for He(God the Father) is aroused from His(God the Father) holy habitation!"

(v9) seems that we can see Christs obedience to His Fathers will in terms of God the Father, will indeed, give command for God the Son to "shake His hand against".....
(v10)**Zechariah is here, IMHO, saying that these are the words of the LORD, in other words, it sounds as if the LORD is the "I", but that is misleading in that Zechariah is saying, this is what the LORD God has said to you(Israel). He is clarifying that God is indeed, via prophecy, giving these words to Israel

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer(God the Son), the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

I believe Isaiah here to be a beautiful expression of the Trinity, well, the Father and the Son, they are both saying "I am the First and I am the Last". And a declaration of one true God though.

the interlinear reads
"thus he says YAHWEH king of Israel and one redeeming of him YAHWEH hosts I first and I last and apart from me there is no Elohim"

Anyway...my :2cents:

divaD
Dec 18th 2011, 05:42 PM
This is how it seems to me...

Zec 2:8 For thus says the LORD of hosts(God the Father): "He(God the Father) sent Me(God the Son) after glory, to the nations(Gentiles) which plunder you(Israel); for he(Gentiles) who touches you(Israel) touches the apple of His(God the Father) eye. 9 For surely I(God the Son) will shake My(God the Son) hand against them(Gentiles), and they(Gentiles)shall become spoil for their servants(Israel). Then you will know that the LORD of hosts(God the Father)has sent Me(God the Son). 10 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion!(Israel) For behold, I(God the Son) am coming and I(God the Son) will dwell in your(Israel) midst," says the LORD(God the Father**), 11 "Many nations(Gentiles) shall be joined to the LORD(God the Father) in that day, and they shall become My(God the Son) people. And I(God the Son) will dwell in your(Israel) midst. Then you(Israel) will know that the LORD of hosts(God the Father) has sent Me(God the Son) to you(Israel). 12 And the LORD(God the Father) will take possession of Judah as His(God the Father) inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all flesh, before the LORD(God the Father), for He(God the Father) is aroused from His(God the Father) holy habitation!"

(v9) seems that we can see Christs obedience to His Fathers will in terms of God the Father, will indeed, give command for God the Son to "shake His hand against".....
(v10)**Zechariah is here, IMHO, saying that these are the words of the LORD, in other words, it sounds as if the LORD is the "I", but that is misleading in that Zechariah is saying, this is what the LORD God has said to you(Israel). He is clarifying that God is indeed, via prophecy, giving these words to Israel

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer(God the Son), the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

I believe Isaiah here to be a beautiful expression of the Trinity, well, the Father and the Son, they are both saying "I am the First and I am the Last". And a declaration of one true God though.

the interlinear reads
"thus he says YAHWEH king of Israel and one redeeming of him YAHWEH hosts I first and I last and apart from me there is no Elohim"

Anyway...my :2cents:




QD, but isn't that a contradiction, if you are correct? Here's what Isaiah 44:6 states.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

This says that the LORD of hosts is his redeemer, correct? You then conclude this is meaning the Son...the LORD of hosts that is.

But when it comes to Zech 2, you now seem to be saying the LORD of hosts is the Father, and not the Son. I would think the only way to square this, in Isaiah 44:6, there is only one person in view here, and not two. Here's how I think it could be understood.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel(God the Father), and his(Israel's) redeemer the LORD of hosts(God the Father); I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

So in other words, these are two titles referring to just one person, and according to the surrounding context, the 'his' would be meaning Israel, plus that was also established in the preceding title of 'the LORD the King of Israel'. Here we're told that the LORD is the King of Israel. I would think that would mean He is his, meaning Israel, redeemer as well.

quiet dove
Dec 18th 2011, 10:05 PM
QD, but isn't that a contradiction, if you are correct? Here's what Isaiah 44:6 states.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

This says that the LORD of hosts is his redeemer, correct? You then conclude this is meaning the Son...the LORD of hosts that is.

But when it comes to Zech 2, you now seem to be saying the LORD of hosts is the Father, and not the Son. I would think the only way to square this, in Isaiah 44:6, there is only one person in view here, and not two. Here's how I think it could be understood.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel(God the Father), and his(Israel's) redeemer the LORD of hosts(God the Father); I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

So in other words, these are two titles referring to just one person, and according to the surrounding context, the 'his' would be meaning Israel, plus that was also established in the preceding title of 'the LORD the King of Israel'. Here we're told that the LORD is the King of Israel. I would think that would mean He is his, meaning Israel, redeemer as well.

Oh, I see what you are saying, the "his" would be Israel, and I think that is correct. I definitely read it wrong. But if I am not mistaken, God always called Himself Israel's Redeemer, that is also something to consider.

Do you use a Bible software, like maybe e-sword. If so, search 'Redeemer' in the OT. What came up for me was God not only as Redeemer, but Savior, husband, the one who pleads their case.

The thing is, we have plenty of passages that foretell of the Messiah, and we have Jesus having fulfilled those prophecies. And we should also consider that not all was revealed in those prophecies. They understood they had been promised the Messiah, and that God was their Redeemer. But they didn't understand, which is obvious judging by the reaction to Jesus claim of being God. Since Jesus is indeed God, God the Son, when in the OT, God being the Redeemer of Israel really is not a contradiction, it is just not the complete revelation, at least not in those particular passages. It is like the Messianic prophecies and the passages of God being Israel's Redeemer were not together maybe...Idk, I didn't look for that yet. I need to look at it from this perspective more and see what is there.

quiet dove
Dec 18th 2011, 10:18 PM
Isa 49:7 Thus says the LORD, The Redeemer of Israel, their Holy One, To Him whom man despises, To Him whom the nation abhors, To the Servant of rulers: "Kings shall see and arise, Princes also shall worship, Because of the LORD who is faithful, The Holy One of Israel; And He has chosen You."

Isa 49:26 I will feed those who oppress you with their own flesh, And they shall be drunk with their own blood as with sweet wine. All flesh shall know That I, the LORD, am your Savior, And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."

I think, not sure how to say it. God will indeed be glorified in that Israel will know her Savior, Jesus Christ. They will know it was God who Redeemed them, but they will know that Jesus is indeed God the Son.

Read chapter 49 see what comes to ya there

divaD
Dec 18th 2011, 11:16 PM
Oh, I see what you are saying, the "his" would be Israel, and I think that is correct. I definitely read it wrong. But if I am not mistaken, God always called Himself Israel's Redeemer, that is also something to consider.

Do you use a Bible software, like maybe e-sword. If so, search 'Redeemer' in the OT. What came up for me was God not only as Redeemer, but Savior, husband, the one who pleads their case.

The thing is, we have plenty of passages that foretell of the Messiah, and we have Jesus having fulfilled those prophecies. And we should also consider that not all was revealed in those prophecies. They understood they had been promised the Messiah, and that God was their Redeemer. But they didn't understand, which is obvious judging by the reaction to Jesus claim of being God. Since Jesus is indeed God, God the Son, when in the OT, God being the Redeemer of Israel really is not a contradiction, it is just not the complete revelation, at least not in those particular passages. It is like the Messianic prophecies and the passages of God being Israel's Redeemer were not together maybe...Idk, I didn't look for that yet. I need to look at it from this perspective more and see what is there.



Let me ask this then, since I agree with you that in the OT not all was revealed in those prophecies. When it is speaking of the LORD of hosts for instance, wouldn't the LORD of hosts always be referring to the same person throughout? So if it were meaning the Son in Isaiah 44:6, then it would have to mean the Son in Zechariah 2 as well, wouldn't it? But then we're back where we started from, since in Zech 2 there is the LORD of hosts, and there is one sent by the LORD of hosts, and that these 2 aren't the same person.

When Fenris returns, I'm hoping he'll weigh in here as well. It's always interesting to see a Jewish perspective on things. I wonder who he sees this one sent by the LORD of hosts as being?

divaD
Dec 18th 2011, 11:25 PM
Isa 49:7 Thus says the LORD, The Redeemer of Israel, their Holy One, To Him whom man despises, To Him whom the nation abhors, To the Servant of rulers: "Kings shall see and arise, Princes also shall worship, Because of the LORD who is faithful, The Holy One of Israel; And He has chosen You."

Isa 49:26 I will feed those who oppress you with their own flesh, And they shall be drunk with their own blood as with sweet wine. All flesh shall know That I, the LORD, am your Savior, And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."

I think, not sure how to say it. God will indeed be glorified in that Israel will know her Savior, Jesus Christ. They will know it was God who Redeemed them, but they will know that Jesus is indeed God the Son.

Read chapter 49 see what comes to ya there



Isaiah 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.


Isaiah 47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

Here we are told that the LORD of hosts is the Holy One of Israel. In Isaiah 49:7 it appears there are 2 persons, but are there? Getting back to what I asked in my prev post then...wouldn't the LORD of hosts always be referring to the same person throughout?

quiet dove
Dec 18th 2011, 11:45 PM
Isaiah 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.


Isaiah 47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

Here we are told that the LORD of hosts is the Holy One of Israel. In Isaiah 49:7 it appears there are 2 persons, but are there? Getting back to what I asked in my prev post then...wouldn't the LORD of hosts always be referring to the same person throughout?

I think in 49:7 you are doing what I did. The his, would be Israel? Actuall, and this does not necessarily make it correct, but when I looked at my NKJV it has it like this

Isa 49:7 Thus says the LORD, The Redeemer of Israel, their Holy One, To Him whom man despises, To Him whom the nation abhors, To the Servant of rulers: "Kings shall see and arise, Princes also shall worship, Because of the LORD who is faithful, The Holy One of Israel; And He has chosen You."

So 'his' could be Israel?

I think that when LORD is the way it is written, it is God the Father. And I would think that consistent but have not actually really studied it to see. But I would think so.

I think the only way to get more understanding is with what is further revealed in the NT

Joh 10:30 I and My Father are one."

For Israel, we can see what presented some with refusal to believe the claims Jesus was making, but at the same time, looking back, we can see the prophecies were there.