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Slug1
Dec 29th 2011, 01:49 AM
During the "Old" Covenant with God, He laid it out specifically what sin was and what to do (various sacrifices) when you did sin, even if you didn't know you were sinning.

Leviticus 5:17 “If a person sins, and commits any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD, though he does not know it, yet he is guilty and shall bear his iniquity.

So my question is concerning the Body of Christ during the "New" Covenant with God, through Jesus.

What are "unintentional" sin(s) that we can commit?

Please include all the scripture you'd like!!!

david
Dec 29th 2011, 01:59 AM
During the "Old" Covenant with God, He laid it out specifically what sin was and what to do (various sacrifices) when you did sin, even if you didn't know you were sinning.

Leviticus 5:17 “If a person sins, and commits any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD, though he does not know it, yet he is guilty and shall bear his iniquity.

So my question is concerning the Body of Christ during the "New" Covenant with God, through Jesus.

What are "unintentional" sin(s) that we can commit?

Please include all the scripture you'd like!!!

One example I can think of on the top of my head is: I sometimes forget to give back a pencil that I borrowed from someone.

Slug1
Dec 29th 2011, 02:16 AM
One example I can think of on the top of my head is: I sometimes forget to give back a pencil that I borrowed from someone.So when did the sin happen?

When you put the pencil in your pocket and went home, or when you are home and you realize the pencil is in your pocket?

If you intent to give the pencil back, is there a sin involved compared to the person who finds the pencil in their pocket and doesn't plan to return the pencil??

david
Dec 29th 2011, 02:38 AM
So when did the sin happen?

When you put the pencil in your pocket and went home, or when you are home and you realize the pencil is in your pocket?

If you intent to give the pencil back, is there a sin involved compared to the person who finds the pencil in their pocket and doesn't plan to return the pencil??
Yes, if you don't plan to return the pencil after you realized you forgot to give it back then it should be an intentional sin.
"whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin." James 4:17

but while it still isn't in your knowledge that you had forgotten to return it, it should be an unintentional sin.

Slug1
Dec 29th 2011, 02:44 AM
Yes, if you don't plan to return the pencil after you realized you forgot to give it back then it should be an intentional sin.
"whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin." James 4:17
Based on the context of that scripture... if a person knows what the right thing is and doesn't do it... then they are not committing "UNintentional" sin... they fail to do good, thus they sin... "INtentionally".

They KNOW what is right and make the choice not to do it... so the sin is intentional.

So, we agree with that.

So when was any UNintentional sin committed??


but while it still isn't in your knowledge that you had forgotten to return it, it should be an unintentional sin.So, on the way home and before the discovery of the pencil in the pocket, UNintentional sin is being committed?

david
Dec 29th 2011, 03:04 AM
Based on the context of that scripture... if a person knows what the right thing is and doesn't do it... then they are not committing "UNintentional" sin... they fail to do good, thus they sin... "INtentionally".

They KNOW what is right and make the choice not to do it... so the sin is intentional.

So, we agree with that.

So when was any UNintentional sin committed??

So, on the way home and before the discovery of the pencil in the pocket, UNintentional sin is being committed?

well, let's say at school that you made an agreement with the person that you'd give back the pencil at the end of the class. but you forgot to give it back at the end, and as you drive home from school (At this point it is an unintentional sin) you realize it's still in your pocket. If you resolve to give it back and you do, there's no intentional sin. But if you don't, then there's intentional sin (because even after realizing it, you don't take action which is against the verse I posted).

PJW
Dec 29th 2011, 03:17 AM
James writes, "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (Ja 1:14-15)
There must be a lust, and a tempting, before there is sin. There is no "accidental" sin. All sins are on purpose.

david
Dec 29th 2011, 03:41 AM
James writes, "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (Ja 1:14-15)
There must be a lust, and a tempting, before there is sin. There is no "accidental" sin. All sins are on purpose.
Is not james talking about unintentional sin here? If we didn't, as he says, "stumble," then would we not be perfect?
For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body. James 3:2

Is not psalm 19:12 talking about unintentional sin?
Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults. Psalm 19:12

jayne
Dec 29th 2011, 03:43 AM
Hmmm....:hmm:

Would it be something like this? Suppose you are hammering a picture frame on the wall and you accidentally WHACK your thumb!!! Really HARD! Suddenly and without warning, your mouth opens and out pops a very profane word - may two or three of them!! :eek::eek:

You hadn't planned on cussing like sailor when you woke up that morning. You hadn't even entertained the THOUGHT of vile speech even a nanosecond before it happened.

But all of a sudden - you did. And now your thumb hurts and your conscience is convicted and you have to repent.

We are not allowed to sweep unintentional sins like that under the rug merely because they were not pre-meditated.

ClayInHisHands
Dec 29th 2011, 04:36 AM
One example I can think of on the top of my head is: I sometimes forget to give back a pencil that I borrowed from someone.


I mean this in all seriousness....you've got to give some more examples...at least a good handfulthat are practical. Because from my first impression of your pencil example....my life as a Christian should just be a few occasionsal..."oops, silly me I forgot to do this or that and/or didn't realize that I failed to do this or that". Peter knew what he was doing when he excluded himself from the Gentiles when he was in the presence of Jewish believers...he was full of pride and was being selfish. My intention is not to make light of your example but to say what are some other practical examples of UNintentional sin and what does it mean for someone like me who struggles with my anger and just panic in tight circumstances at home? Yes! I know I am to STOP!...easier said than done. Anger can be an addiction just like alcohol. See this is where I get stuck...where I stress and anxiety lashes out because then I am scared to death that I gotta do more and if I don't do it enough or quick enough and I die...I'm lost. Then the real and same question always pops up...."Do I really believe? Nope, I bet not or else I would stop doing what I do and not ever intentionally sin...ever.



Thanks,
ClayInHisHands

Slug1
Dec 29th 2011, 04:55 AM
Here is an example of what I feel was an unintentional sin in my life... somewhere I have a post in a thread about this, maybe a whole thread. They begin to blur over time :P

While I was a soldier in the Army, my platoon was deployed to Iraq for our first time. During that tour, my men gave me a nick-name that I thought was cool. Every once in awhile I'd bring it up in conversation. This year, several months ago (the name was given to me in 2003 and I retired in 07), God reminded me about that nick-name. I was on the way to church to pray at 5:30am. God was leading me to do prayer very early some mornings and I was obedient to the promptings I felt in my spirit. So on the way in, I simply asked God why He woke me up and His answer was to bring up that name.

Once at church, I text my pastor and told him about what God reminded me of and I was wondering why, as I had driven in.

So, I knelt at the altar and began to pray and God led me through a prayer that pointed out some pride that was in my heart concerning that nick-name.

NEVER knew that the "bragging" I did in conversation just several times since 2003... was pride in my heart that was causing distance between me and God's will for my life. I repented of it all, rejected the words I had spoke and severed all soul-ties to that name and what it meant.

So... for about 8 years, I had "Unintentional" sin in my heart and didn't realize the sin till God pointed it out that morning to me.

So this is an example that I will toss onto the table for this discussion.

david
Dec 29th 2011, 05:00 AM
I mean this in all seriousness....you've got to give some more examples...at least a good handfulthat are practical. Because from my first impression of your pencil example....my life as a Christian should just be a few occasionsal..."oops, silly me I forgot to do this or that and/or didn't realize that I failed to do this or that". Peter knew what he was doing when he excluded himself from the Gentiles when he was in the presence of Jewish believers...he was full of pride and was being selfish. My intention is not to make light of your example but to say what are some other practical examples of UNintentional sin and what does it mean for someone like me who struggles with my anger and just panic in tight circumstances at home? Yes! I know I am to STOP!...easier said than done. Anger can be an addiction just like alcohol. See this is where I get stuck...where I stress and anxiety lashes out because then I am scared to death that I gotta do more and if I don't do it enough or quick enough and I die...I'm lost. Then the real and same question always pops up...."Do I really believe? Nope, I bet not or else I would stop doing what I do and not ever intentionally sin...ever.



Thanks,
ClayInHisHands

I believe James 3:2 is addressing your very dillemma now. If everyone was able to control their tongues perfectly, everyone would be perfect men and women. However this is not the case. James says that it is actually impossible to tame the tongue.
For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body. If we put bits into the mouths of horses so that they obey us, we guide their whole bodies as well. Look at the ships also: though they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are guided by a very small rudder wherever the will of the pilot directs. So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire! And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by mankind, but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. James 3:2-8

If it is impossible to tame the tongue, why is he telling us to control it? Because we can control it to a certain extent, but not to the fullest extent. We can stop intentionally sinning with our tongues. If we can stop doing that, I believe that's enough. That's all God requires of us, as spoken through James. He doesn't expect us to be perfect men by controlling our tongues to the fullest extent, but only that we do the best we can with it. Don't beat yourself up for slipping with your tongue. It is the hardest thing in the world to tame the tongue. Simply ask for forgiveness and ask for self-control. Am I saying we should neglect to take care of our unintentional sins? No, we should take care of those also, because psalmists say we should take care of both unintentional and intentional sins in order to please god.
Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults (unintentional sin). Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins (intentional sin); let them not have dominion over me! Then I shall be blameless, and innocent of great transgression. Psalm 19:12-13
Keep steady my steps according to your promise, and let no iniquity get dominion over me. Psalm 119:133
Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Matthew 6:9-13

John 8:32
Dec 29th 2011, 02:21 PM
Here is an example of what I feel was an unintentional sin in my life... somewhere I have a post in a thread about this, maybe a whole thread. They begin to blur over time :P

While I was a soldier in the Army, my platoon was deployed to Iraq for our first time. During that tour, my men gave me a nick-name that I thought was cool. Every once in awhile I'd bring it up in conversation. This year, several months ago (the name was given to me in 2003 and I retired in 07), God reminded me about that nick-name. I was on the way to church to pray at 5:30am. God was leading me to do prayer very early some mornings and I was obedient to the promptings I felt in my spirit. So on the way in, I simply asked God why He woke me up and His answer was to bring up that name.

Once at church, I text my pastor and told him about what God reminded me of and I was wondering why, as I had driven in.

So, I knelt at the altar and began to pray and God led me through a prayer that pointed out some pride that was in my heart concerning that nick-name.

NEVER knew that the "bragging" I did in conversation just several times since 2003... was pride in my heart that was causing distance between me and God's will for my life. I repented of it all, rejected the words I had spoke and severed all soul-ties to that name and what it meant.

So... for about 8 years, I had "Unintentional" sin in my heart and didn't realize the sin till God pointed it out that morning to me.

So this is an example that I will toss onto the table for this discussion.

This is an excellent post and I would have added...


I believe James 3:2 is addressing your very dillemma now. If everyone was able to control their tongues perfectly, everyone would be perfect men and women. However this is not the case. James says that it is actually impossible to tame the tongue.
For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body. If we put bits into the mouths of horses so that they obey us, we guide their whole bodies as well. Look at the ships also: though they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are guided by a very small rudder wherever the will of the pilot directs. So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire! And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by mankind, but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. James 3:2-8

If it is impossible to tame the tongue, why is he telling us to control it? Because we can control it to a certain extent, but not to the fullest extent. We can stop intentionally sinning with our tongues. If we can stop doing that, I believe that's enough. That's all God requires of us, as spoken through James. He doesn't expect us to be perfect men by controlling our tongues to the fullest extent, but only that we do the best we can with it. Don't beat yourself up for slipping with your tongue. It is the hardest thing in the world to tame the tongue. Simply ask for forgiveness and ask for self-control. Am I saying we should neglect to take care of our unintentional sins? No, we should take care of those also, because psalmists say we should take care of both unintentional and intentional sins in order to please god.
Who can discern his errors? Declare me innocent from hidden faults (unintentional sin). Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins (intentional sin); let them not have dominion over me! Then I shall be blameless, and innocent of great transgression. Psalm 19:12-13
Keep steady my steps according to your promise, and let no iniquity get dominion over me. Psalm 119:133
Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Matthew 6:9-13

but david has said it so well that I have nothing to add other than this is an excellent thread topic and thread.

ClayInHisHands
Dec 29th 2011, 02:50 PM
What about when in the midst of my anger when there is panic and anxiety and I feel the strong desire to control the situation anyway I can because from a child to now I have learned and seen that lashing out in anger and cursing is a way of coping in the midst of a stressful situation. Of course, I know it's wrong behavior and not the right reaction. But as I said, in the midst of it I am overwhelmed in my anger and have even thought while in the midst that I should stop...sometimes I have...other times it's as if I can't, iand I feed off of the anger and lose control. When I'm thinking about it in the midst of it and let it overcome me and my anger continues am I then intentionally sinning? I think so, what then when it becomes a daily thing...not walking around in anger every moment of the day, but at least some episode everyday?What does that say about my faith and my belief and trust in the promises of God and in Christ Jesus my Lord and savior? I confess that I have sinned and believe He is faithful and just to forgive. But if I keep doing this so often am I not really repenting and simply committing intentional sin and thus PRACTICING sin?Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to decieve ourselves to compromise and justify our behavior and lay in the pool of self sufficiency and self gratification and tell ourselves everyday....it's okay, get up and move and try again.

Indueseason
Dec 29th 2011, 02:55 PM
Greetings Slug1 :) Great topic!

Yesterday I gave someone information based on what I believed to be true.As it turned out, my information was wrong, which did cause problems for that person. I spoke honestly, but the information was untrue. Did I unintentionally lie? Maybe, but I also spoke honestly without any desire to deceive. Do we have a duty to make sure our information is accurate before we pass it on?

blessings to you :hug:

david
Dec 29th 2011, 06:24 PM
What about when in the midst of my anger when there is panic and anxiety and I feel the strong desire to control the situation anyway I can because from a child to now I have learned and seen that lashing out in anger and cursing is a way of coping in the midst of a stressful situation. Of course, I know it's wrong behavior and not the right reaction. But as I said, in the midst of it I am overwhelmed in my anger and have even thought while in the midst that I should stop...sometimes I have...other times it's as if I can't, iand I feed off of the anger and lose control. When I'm thinking about it in the midst of it and let it overcome me and my anger continues am I then intentionally sinning? I think so, what then when it becomes a daily thing...not walking around in anger every moment of the day, but at least some episode everyday?What does that say about my faith and my belief and trust in the promises of God and in Christ Jesus my Lord and savior? I confess that I have sinned and believe He is faithful and just to forgive. But if I keep doing this so often am I not really repenting and simply committing intentional sin and thus PRACTICING sin?Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to decieve ourselves to compromise and justify our behavior and lay in the pool of self sufficiency and self gratification and tell ourselves everyday....it's okay, get up and move and try again.

Clayinhishands,

Have you tried praying? Like a lot? I find that when I spend hours praying my anxiety on all issues tend to lessen. Jesus himself prayed a lot. There's one time when he went to pray "all night" by himself (Luke 6:12). "The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working (James 5:16)." I myself will pray for you because I had these issues with anger before. They are quite hard to control. But asking for self-control from God helped me out. Praying and worshipping God is like "fuel" to help you go through life's trials. There's no limit to when you can pray for it says "pray unceasingly (1th 5.17)." I pray as I walk around, as I lie in bed, as I eat food, etc. There's a definite difference between not doing it and doing it. I get my prayers answered seconds after I pray them. And perhaps this will work too if you pray for self-control as you feel like you are losing self-control. So I would suggest praying often.

PJW
Dec 30th 2011, 05:02 AM
Jesus said, "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make free." (Jo 8:32) Jesus then said, "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (Jo 8:34) If you are still committing sin, you are not free and you don't know, or obey, the truth.
The truth is you can live without sin. Repentance of sin means turning away from the things, and people that cause you to turn away from God's will.
Jesus said, "No man can serve two masters. For he will love the one and hate the other. (Matt 6:24) Decide who who love!
Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matt 5:48) Obey Jesus!
God said, "Be ye holy, for I am holy." (I Peter 1:16), {from Lev 11:44}. Choose God and heaven, not a temporary, false joy, and damnation!
Remember, "God heareth not sinners." (Jo 9:31) If you have to repent "every day", you aren't repenting at all. "Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of." (I Cor 7:10) If you're sorry for sinning against God, THEN STOP DOING IT! Or...are you a pretender?
"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement to be punished." (I Peter 2:9) All sins are by choice.

fewarechosen
Dec 30th 2011, 05:29 AM
if you rent a car in a different country and you break a law while driving even though you didnt know that law youre still guilty.

the term "unintentional" i do not like i would say its more along lines of "ignorant of"

Indueseason
Dec 30th 2011, 11:31 AM
I mean this in all seriousness....you've got to give some more examples...at least a good handfulthat are practical. Because from my first impression of your pencil example....my life as a Christian should just be a few occasionsal..."oops, silly me I forgot to do this or that and/or didn't realize that I failed to do this or that". Peter knew what he was doing when he excluded himself from the Gentiles when he was in the presence of Jewish believers...he was full of pride and was being selfish. My intention is not to make light of your example but to say what are some other practical examples of UNintentional sin and what does it mean for someone like me who struggles with my anger and just panic in tight circumstances at home? Yes! I know I am to STOP!...easier said than done. Anger can be an addiction just like alcohol. See this is where I get stuck...where I stress and anxiety lashes out because then I am scared to death that I gotta do more and if I don't do it enough or quick enough and I die...I'm lost. Then the real and same question always pops up...."Do I really believe? Nope, I bet not or else I would stop doing what I do and not ever intentionally sin...ever.



Thanks,
ClayInHisHands

Dear brother, I hear your struggle and God does too. Your problem is a matter of the heart. Not a heart that is rebellious to God, a heart that needs healing and restoration. Your right, anger can be an addiction, something we need delivered from. I used to be where you are, and although I desperately wanted to stop lashing out, I just couldn't.While my heart was growing leaps and bounds in other areas, my anger didn't budge. I felt like a fake, especially when I read about how meek and gentle I was supposed to be in Christ! I struggled and struggled, crying out to God, and the whole struggle just made the problem worse! I was caught in a trap that only God could get me out of, and when I finally gave up that fight(it was as if He allowed all the stress,fear and guilt to take me to that point) God healed my heart!

Your caught in a trap ClayinHISHANDS There's a part of your heart that needs restored.Your struggling to control actions that stem from that place. When you fail, guilt and fear( satan is so quick to work!) adds fuel to make your anger even worse.You fear losing control, but you don't even have it to start with. As your name says, you are clay in His hands,and He just needs you to surrender that fight, that He may finish the job!

I pray this makes sense to you.I do not see you as a rebellious person, but a broken one,in need of the Lord's healing balm.

May the Lord truly bless 2012 for you! :hug:

Slug1
Dec 30th 2011, 11:45 AM
I mean this in all seriousness....you've got to give some more examples...at least a good handfulthat are practical. Because from my first impression of your pencil example....my life as a Christian should just be a few occasionsal..."oops, silly me I forgot to do this or that and/or didn't realize that I failed to do this or that". Peter knew what he was doing when he excluded himself from the Gentiles when he was in the presence of Jewish believers...he was full of pride and was being selfish. My intention is not to make light of your example but to say what are some other practical examples of UNintentional sin and what does it mean for someone like me who struggles with my anger and just panic in tight circumstances at home? Yes! I know I am to STOP!...easier said than done. Anger can be an addiction just like alcohol. See this is where I get stuck...where I stress and anxiety lashes out because then I am scared to death that I gotta do more and if I don't do it enough or quick enough and I die...I'm lost. Then the real and same question always pops up...."Do I really believe? Nope, I bet not or else I would stop doing what I do and not ever intentionally sin...ever.
Thanks,
ClayInHisHandsGonna ask you a strange question... How many know of this "anger" issue that you have?

Slug1
Dec 30th 2011, 11:50 AM
Greetings Slug1 :) Great topic!

Yesterday I gave someone information based on what I believed to be true.As it turned out, my information was wrong, which did cause problems for that person. I spoke honestly, but the information was untrue. Did I unintentionally lie? Maybe, but I also spoke honestly without any desire to deceive. Do we have a duty to make sure our information is accurate before we pass it on?

blessings to you :hug:Do you know how many times I've given heartfelt advice that had a maximum effective range of ZERO meters??

PLENTY!

All I can do is learn from my mistakes and this helps others not make mistakes or be hurt, from my mistakes. This is my initial thought(s) concerning the situation you raise.

Also... pray more. When I receive confirmation, then I make the time to advise even when they don't want to hear it.

Slug1
Dec 30th 2011, 11:55 AM
Question to toss into the mix of discussion... what about CONVICTION?

I was never convicted of my pride concerning that "nick-name" until after I pursued what God put on my spirit, in prayer. Even on the way to the church (28 mile drive), I wasn't convicted, on the way in I was only wondering why God placed that upon my spirit. It wasn't until after the prayer began, was the reason clear and the conviction was an element that led the prayer that morning.

Indueseason
Dec 30th 2011, 12:07 PM
Do you know how many times I've given heartfelt advice that had a maximum effective range of ZERO meters??

PLENTY!

All I can do is learn from my mistakes and this helps others not make mistakes or be hurt, from my mistakes. This is my initial thought(s) concerning the situation you raise.

Also... pray more. When I receive confirmation, then I make the time to advise even when they don't want to hear it.

Agreed! It was only information about a bus timetable, but the schedule had changed unbeknown to me, and caused problems for the other person.I now have a new timetable:yes:

As for conviction? What a glorious thing it is! Sometime it comes long after the event, sometimes (much preferable) as soon as the thought enters our mind, either way it is a loving Father showing you a better way!!

May your 2012 be filled with blessings! :hug:

Slug1
Dec 30th 2011, 12:15 PM
As for conviction? What a glorious thing it is! Sometime it comes long after the event, sometimes (much preferable) as soon as the thought enters our mind, either way it is a loving Father showing you a better way!!

Yeah... we all expect conviction to hit at the same time while the temptation is hitting. Kinda like the devil on the left shoulder and an angel on the right shoulder, cartoon image. Each is whispering in an ear and which do we listen to and follow through with?

Seems that as we draw closer to God, there may be elements within us that once didn't convict us but as we grow closer, we begin to be convicted and as we surrender it over, or stop it, or whatever the conviction is... we grow even closer to God.

Indueseason
Dec 30th 2011, 12:33 PM
Yeah... we all expect conviction to hit at the same time while the temptation is hitting. Kinda like the devil on the left shoulder and an angel on the right shoulder, cartoon image. Each is whispering in an ear and which do we listen to and follow through with?

Seems that as we draw closer to God, there may be elements within us that once didn't convict us but as we grow closer, we begin to be convicted and as we surrender it over, or stop it, or whatever the conviction is... we grow even closer to God.

It seem like we move from being convicted of external sin, to God revealing the sins of our heart. Just as things moved from the eternal sins of the OT, to the internal of the NT. As we draw closer our inward motives and desires are revealed to us. I find it fascinating! It encompasses so much more! I may do something good, that world sees as good, but the Lord sees that my motive was self motivated! The Lord is a wonderful cardiologist! :lol:

blessings to you :hug:

tango
Dec 30th 2011, 02:35 PM
One example I can think of on the top of my head is: I sometimes forget to give back a pencil that I borrowed from someone.

I'm not sure I'd class that as a sin under the new covenant. If you borrowed the pencil in good faith fully intending to give it back but truly forgot then you always have the potential to give it back later.

If you took the pencil claiming you were "borrowing" it but had no intention of ever returning it then you've got an issue (the value of the pencil is obviously trivial, it's about where your heart is). If you borrowed the pencil and realised six months later you still had it but made a conscious decision not to return it then you could say there's an issue there, although in the specific case of a pencil it's easy to argue that the time and cost associated with returning it make the process rather pointless.


In terms of the original question I guess we need to consider whether something we do in a moment of being carried away (be it cursing because we hit our thumb, giving the finger to a driver who cuts us up in traffic, leaving the shop quickly when they gave us change for a $50 when we know we only handed over a $20 or whatever else) is unintentional on the basis if we had stopped for a moment to think we might not have done it, or intentional because it involves a specific action that we chose to take regardless of what was influencing us at the time. The example of forgetting to return something seems very different insofar as it involves an unintentional omission rather than a commission.

John 8:32
Dec 30th 2011, 04:59 PM
I'm not sure I'd class that as a sin under the new covenant. If you borrowed the pencil in good faith fully intending to give it back but truly forgot then you always have the potential to give it back later.

If you took the pencil claiming you were "borrowing" it but had no intention of ever returning it then you've got an issue (the value of the pencil is obviously trivial, it's about where your heart is). If you borrowed the pencil and realised six months later you still had it but made a conscious decision not to return it then you could say there's an issue there, although in the specific case of a pencil it's easy to argue that the time and cost associated with returning it make the process rather pointless.


In terms of the original question I guess we need to consider whether something we do in a moment of being carried away (be it cursing because we hit our thumb, giving the finger to a driver who cuts us up in traffic, leaving the shop quickly when they gave us change for a $50 when we know we only handed over a $20 or whatever else) is unintentional on the basis if we had stopped for a moment to think we might not have done it, or intentional because it involves a specific action that we chose to take regardless of what was influencing us at the time. The example of forgetting to return something seems very different insofar as it involves an unintentional omission rather than a commission.

I think your definition of unintentional sin is generous to say the least. Extrapolate that twenty dollar bill to killing someone on the spur of the moment in an argument.

Slug1
Dec 30th 2011, 06:44 PM
Let me elaborate on something I touched on already.

A person accepts Christ and about 3 years into that relationship the person understands that all the rated R movies they "ENJOY" due to the sex and the violence, as actually not aligned with the work that God is doing in their heart. It takes another full year of struggling with letting go of the enjoyment of those movies and they finally GET RID of them all from their collection of DVD's they bought over the years. They literally throw away, $2000 worth of DVDs they purchased and collected.

Once this is done, the work takes a turn and the conviction leads them to not even enjoying those types of movies, leads them to reject that portion of their past, and they sever all ties. They don't go over to any friends homes if invited to watch a "movie" that is of the type they reject, they don't go to the theaters with friends to see any of those types of movies... and as they do this, they feel closer to God.

SO... was it "UNintentional sin" from the moment they accepted Christ and ALL DURING the 3 years that they continued to be in the world (being Double-Minded) concerning watching and enjoying those movies... they were committing an UNintentional sin???

Was it INtentional sin or UNintentional sin during that year of struggle to separate themselves from such movies?

Indueseason
Dec 30th 2011, 07:40 PM
Let me elaborate on something I touched on already.

A person accepts Christ and about 3 years into that relationship the person understands that all the rated R movies they "ENJOY" due to the sex and the violence, as actually not aligned with the work that God is doing in their heart. It takes another full year of struggling with letting go of the enjoyment of those movies and they finally GET RID of them all from their collection of DVD's they bought over the years. They literally throw away, $2000 worth of DVDs they purchased and collected.

Once this is done, the work takes a turn and the conviction leads them to not even enjoying those types of movies, leads them to reject that portion of their past, and they sever all ties. They don't go over to any friends homes if invited to watch a "movie" that is of the type they reject, they don't go to the theaters with friends to see any of those types of movies... and as they do this, they feel closer to God.

SO... was it "UNintentional sin" from the moment they accepted Christ and ALL DURING the 3 years that they continued to be in the world (being Double-Minded) concerning watching and enjoying those movies... they were committing an UNintentional sin???

Was it INtentional sin or UNintentional sin during that year of struggle to separate themselves from such movies?

My family was bound by the occult when I came to Christ. Very early on, the Lord made it clear to me ,that I was to have nothing to do with magic,horoscopes,witchcraft and the likes, not even in movies. I couldn't even have kids movies like hocus pocus in my home. There were times when it was difficult, like when my niece chose to go see Harry Potter for her birthday and I couldn't go. She and her mom were very upset with me. To me, it felt like I didn't have a choice, but I know I did. I could have put my nieces desires before God's, but I couldn't even consider that without feeling convicted!

Once the Lord had told me what I couldn't do, I was responsible for obeying. I still am, so if I run off and watch one of those movies, it is definitely intentional disobedience.

blessings to you :hug:

Slug1
Dec 30th 2011, 07:45 PM
My family was bound by the occult when I came to Christ. Very early on, the Lord made it clear to me ,that I was to have nothing to do with magic,horoscopes,witchcraft and the likes, not even in movies. I couldn't even have kids movies like hocus pocus in my home. There were times when it was difficult, like when my niece chose to go see Harry Potter for her birthday and I couldn't go. She and her mom were very upset with me. To me, it felt like I didn't have a choice, but I know I did. I could have put my nieces desires before God's, but I couldn't even consider that without feeling convicted!

Once the Lord had told me what I couldn't do, I was responsible for obeying. I still am, so if I run off and watch one of those movies, it is definitely intentional disobedience.

blessings to you :hug:I was going to touch on "occult" related media. According to statistics, occult related media makes up about 75-80% of all that is either read or watched today by the young AND adult of the USA.

Scary... and I wonder what percentage of those who watch all that 75-80% occult related media are, Christians??

ClayInHisHands
Dec 30th 2011, 07:46 PM
Common sense says it would be INtentional sin. Over that year you gave into temptation and failed miserably....this is akin to my struggle with anger. What I panic and stress about so much is what if I don't resist temptation and keep trusting the promise of God that he has made an escape and I keep letting anger control me and my circumstances, will I not inherit eternal life. I am exactly the same as I was when I first joined this site 3 years ago, if not worse. I am a sinner and I have spit in the face of God and I deserve death. God has NOT failed anything.....I have.

Indueseason
Dec 30th 2011, 08:03 PM
I was going to touch on "occult" related media. According to statistics, occult related media makes up about 75-80% of all that is either read or watched today by the young AND adult of the USA.

Scary... and I wonder what percentage of those who watch all that 75-80% occult related media are, Christians??

Yip and the books and movies just keep coming! My daughter has never seen any of these movies or read the books, but most of her friends have, and they are Christians! :( They are all falling around and fantasising they are a part of the twilight saga! My daughter can see the damage these things cause, her friends no longer have the same awareness of evil, they once had, and one of them even mentioned going to a fortune teller! Be sure, satan is using everything you watch and read like this!

There wasn't all this stuff when I came to Christ, but now I am so grateful that the Lord warned me in advance and so is my daughter!

blessings to you :hug:

Indueseason
Dec 30th 2011, 08:18 PM
Common sense says it would be INtentional sin. Over that year you gave into temptation and failed miserably....this is akin to my struggle with anger. What I panic and stress about so much is what if I don't resist temptation and keep trusting the promise of God that he has made an escape and I keep letting anger control me and my circumstances, will I not inherit eternal life. I am exactly the same as I was when I first joined this site 3 years ago, if not worse. I am a sinner and I have spit in the face of God and I deserve death. God has NOT failed anything.....I have.

Brother ask the Lord to show you what triggers this anger. You need to understand it before you can change it. Fear was the driving factor for me, that and the need to be in control. As I've said already, I struggled for years with it, until I felt so disgusted with myself, that I couldn't do as He would want me to.Seriously, it brought me to despair, but our glorious Lord, didn't come with conviction and judgement, He came with gentleness and love! He lifted me up, so that I could stand again. It left, all that anger, it was just gone. I had surrendered the part of my heart I needed to,and that's all He wanted.He did the rest, and I stand in awe of a God so awesome that He could transform a wretch like me!

May 2012 be filled with blessings for you :hug:

Slug1
Dec 30th 2011, 08:21 PM
Here is another question...

Based on scripture and our knowledge of scripture as we read the Bible. Concerning all the Bible says about the "occult" and how God is against any occult practice...

Is a Christian committing UNintentional sin or INtentional sin based on their knowledge of what they read in the Bible and they are continuing to partake of occult related media?

Or ONLY once they are convicted by what they read in the Bible and know that any involvement of the occult is sinful... only "after" the conviction and then "if" a person continues to watch occult related media, is it INtentional sin?

ClayInHisHands
Dec 30th 2011, 08:43 PM
First my phone is frustrating so please excuse not multi-quoting.

Than you Induseason, I have began seeking to find answers to the hopes and desires I have and why I continue to let anger control my life and my circumstances. He has revealed some things and probably all and I must continue seeking answers because my desires and hopes have not changed obviously because of an unchanged heart and attitude. You're words were comforting.




Slug1, woould you, in your opinion consider Star Wars films equal to Harry Potter and Twilight, etc.? I don't see them as equal, but curious what your opinion of it is. Thanks

Indueseason
Dec 30th 2011, 08:49 PM
Here is another question...

Based on scripture and our knowledge of scripture as we read the Bible. Concerning all the Bible says about the "occult" and how God is against any occult practice...

Is a Christian committing UNintentional sin or INtentional sin based on their knowledge of what they read in the Bible and they are continuing to partake of occult related media?

Or ONLY once they are convicted by what they read in the Bible and know that any involvement of the occult is sinful... only "after" the conviction and then "if" a person continues to watch occult related media, is it INtentional sin?

We all know pretty quickly that the Lord wants us to stay away from the occult, but to what degree is that meant to be? We shouldn't visit a fortune teller, but watching a movie about one, or reading a book about one, seems different to many Christians. Witchcraft is wrong, magic spells and potions, but what harm does it do to watch a movie with it in it? It's all just fantasy they say.Reading our horoscope in the newspaper, how bad can that be, since we know it's all made up anyway?

I think we need to seek the Lord on what His word actually means, and to what extent we should avoid this stuff. The Lord spoke to me early on, and I know I can have nothing to do with any of it. That made it easy to accept, as I don't have to decide what is ok and what is not!

blessings to you :hug:

david
Dec 31st 2011, 12:14 AM
Would this be called unintentional sin, since Paul is doing what he does not want to do?
Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. Romans 7:13-20

ClayInHisHands
Dec 31st 2011, 12:22 AM
Clayinhishands,

Have you tried praying? Like a lot? I find that when I spend hours praying my anxiety on all issues tend to lessen. Jesus himself prayed a lot. There's one time when he went to pray "all night" by himself (Luke 6:12). "The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working (James 5:16)." I myself will pray for you because I had these issues with anger before. They are quite hard to control. But asking for self-control from God helped me out. Praying and worshipping God is like "fuel" to help you go through life's trials. There's no limit to when you can pray for it says "pray unceasingly (1th 5.17)." I pray as I walk around, as I lie in bed, as I eat food, etc. There's a definite difference between not doing it and doing it. I get my prayers answered seconds after I pray them. And perhaps this will work too if you pray for self-control as you feel like you are losing self-control. So I would suggest praying often.






Thankk you for your prayers in advance. I will take your words of wisdom and apply them.

ClayInHisHands
Dec 31st 2011, 12:32 AM
[QUOTE=Slug1;2787066]Gonna ask you a strange question... How many know of this "anger" issue that you have?[/QUOTE




My wife and 4 children, and a friend who is helping me with this issue. Also my Father, Mother and sister know of this too.

tango
Jan 1st 2012, 02:36 PM
I think your definition of unintentional sin is generous to say the least. Extrapolate that twenty dollar bill to killing someone on the spur of the moment in an argument.

Even there, there's a big difference in possibilities. If in the heat of the moment you punch someone only for them to fall backwards, hit their head and die that's a very different situation to if you'd gone out spoiling for a fight and armed to the teeth, killing them with a weapon you'd taken along for the express purpose of harming them.

I'm looking at intention rather than outcome.

To take a loosely comparable example if I am holding a cricket ball and burning with hatred towards you, throw the cricket ball at you intending to hurt you with it but miss leaving you unharmed, have I committed less sin than if you and I are good friends, I throw the cricket ball to you at your request intending for you to catch it only to throw it awkwardly and break your nose with it?

Slug1
Jan 2nd 2012, 02:44 AM
[QUOTE=Slug1;2787066]Gonna ask you a strange question... How many know of this "anger" issue that you have?[/QUOTE




My wife and 4 children, and a friend who is helping me with this issue. Also my Father, Mother and sister know of this too.Are these people faithful in fulfilling James 5:16 as the fervent prayer warriors for you when you confess? That way... so you may be healed and free of this anger issue?

Here is an excerpt of a Bible Study I sent out during last week:


So, this is what is ministered to me as I write… Imagine if “we”, as a Body of Christ didn’t pray for ourselves at all for a period of one month. All we prayed for… was others in our church, family, work place, school, etc. To facilitate this YOU ACTUALLY had to reveal YOUR weaknesses to others, YOUR DEEP DARK SECRETS and active SIN in YOUR life, to others… so that “they” could pray for what YOU are actually struggling with.

Two things would happen… our walk, the TRUE walk we are doing would be exposed and I’ll be honest, many, NO… ALL of us would be ashamed. The other thing… find a prayer partner and do this for a single day, then a week, then a month… and by the end of that month, I would bet that your walk would be MUCH straighter and aligned on a road that leads to a NARROW Gate (Matthew 7:13-14; Luke 13:24)!

You want to be healed and walk as a new creation in Christ… then CONFESS:

James 5: 16 Confess your trespasses[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James 5:16&version=NKJV;#fen-NKJV-30367a)] to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

Race Runner
Jan 2nd 2012, 04:21 AM
Leviticus 5:17 “If a person sins, and commits any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD, though he does not know it, yet he is guilty and shall bear his iniquity.

So my question is concerning the Body of Christ during the "New" Covenant with God, through Jesus.

What are "unintentional" sin(s) that we can commit?

Please include all the scripture you'd like!!!

Hrm...I went back and read this again, and then I read it again. Just to make sure I read it again. As far as I know there is only one sin, broken down into two types with many sub categories.
Sin is an archery term for missing the mark. Unless the arrow hits a perfect bulls-eye...it sins in a direction. Can you imagine how difficult it is to hit the perfect bulls-eye, say the size of a pin prick at 50 paces? There are those who wouldn't even try (sins of Omission) and there are those who might let their pride get the best of them and give it a shot (sins of commission) though they have never practiced that shot before. If you are lucky, there might be one out of a thousand who has studied shots like that and can pull it off.

Did the ones who had not practiced know or realize that they were being prideful? That can be hard for me to identify myself, so I would have to say PRIDE is my best example of an "unintentional" sin. It seems to precede all of my other sins which may or may not be intentional.

If I let my foul mouth spat off, I sin...did I correct it immediately? Sinned again. Did I confess it? Sinned again. Was I broken about it? Sinned again. Thank God he is a loving and forgiving God.

So what am I to say…that I am doomed before I begin? Not at all. What I can do though is make a promise that I will do my best to improve.

I was teaching a child this the other day. “It is like cleaning your room,” I said. “If you go in and your room is a mess and just clean it up, chances are it won’t be long until the room is a mess again. But if you make a decision to improve on your room, even if it is just ever so slightly, then you will one day see a clean room and it is more likely to stay that way.” I added, “But what if you decide you want to play with your LEGOs and get them all over the place? And all you did was just pick up the LEGOs, did you improve on your room? No, it remained the same, so even though you messed it up, and then cleaned up what you did, you still would need to do something else to be able to say that the room has improved.”

When I read the Old Testament, I like to think of it like this…
In a parts manifest it describes a bolt, a chassis, a lug nut, a drive shaft, and many other various parts.
The fulfillment of the manifest is the car, just as Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament.

Sorry if I didn't give you a list of scriptures, but here is one you might like and find useful.

2 Corinthians 3:3 New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Race Runner
Jan 2nd 2012, 05:11 AM
I mean this in all seriousness....you've got to give some more examples...at least a good handfulthat are practical. Because from my first impression of your pencil example....my life as a Christian should just be a few occasionsal..."oops, silly me I forgot to do this or that and/or didn't realize that I failed to do this or that". Peter knew what he was doing when he excluded himself from the Gentiles when he was in the presence of Jewish believers...he was full of pride and was being selfish. My intention is not to make light of your example but to say what are some other practical examples of UNintentional sin and what does it mean for someone like me who struggles with my anger and just panic in tight circumstances at home? Yes! I know I am to STOP!...easier said than done. Anger can be an addiction just like alcohol. See this is where I get stuck...where I stress and anxiety lashes out because then I am scared to death that I gotta do more and if I don't do it enough or quick enough and I die...I'm lost. Then the real and same question always pops up...."Do I really believe? Nope, I bet not or else I would stop doing what I do and not ever intentionally sin...ever.



Thanks,
ClayInHisHands


I like that name...Clay in his hands. Are you? I am going to offer you a pearl here. I use to have the same issue and I got over it. Want to know how? Sure you do or you wouldn't still be reading.

John 8:31-32
New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Hold to his teachings. I don’t mean put them into practice. I mean hold to them like they mean more than life itself. I started studying the bible, not just reading it. Can you quote the 23rd Psalm from memory? You could, if you wanted too. I made the decision to break away and read the bible, and then I decided to study it. I started memorizing the simple stuff, then I moved on to the important stuff. I don’t know when it happened, but one day I discovered that I had faith. Faith brings Joy. Worldly things bring happiness, but only faith can bring JOY! The problem with worldly things is that they break and when I put my heart on those things, I get upset when I lose them or even worse, the fear of losing them causes me to chase them away.
Luke 14:25-27
New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. 27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

After reading the above I had to see that even my relationships could not take first place. I had to let Jesus be #1, and if everyone else didn’t like that, too bad.

Then one day I realized a truth. I didn’t even need them to like me anymore. Because of my faith, my prayers started getting answered. It was like God himself came down and said, “My friend, I love you…here, I got this for you.” With love like that, who needs anyone else?

The cool thing is that to this day it works. I am living with my sister in a family of eight people. Some of them don't like me, but all of them have good things to say about me. God made that happen, but only after I took the first step.

There is a bunch more too it, but this is someone else's post and I don't want to turn it into a counseling session, but if you want to PM me, I would be more than happy to cover all the details. Just know, from a person who has had that monkey on his back, my heart bleeds for you and your pain.

Indueseason
Jan 2nd 2012, 12:37 PM
Are these people faithful in fulfilling James 5:16 as the fervent prayer warriors for you when you confess?

Here is an excerpt of a Bible Study I sent out during last week:

My old church sent it's elders on a retreat to do this very thing!! It's awesome!!! :pp The first day was all about team work and trust. The second day was about confession, accountability and prayer! That evening we rendered heaven come down, not much sleep that night, nor was it needed!! :pp

This is a matter of laying down our pride to take up what God has destined us for!! We all changed as the the yolk of sin was taken away!! We met or called our accountability partner every day, to share how we were doing in overcoming that sin in our lives.We knew that we had the fervent prayers of all the elders, and the power to overcome was just there!! :pp

Happy New year and blessings to you :hug:

keck553
Jan 3rd 2012, 08:30 PM
Though Paul's actions against the Messianic sect following Jesus were intentional, he assumed he was acting on the behalf of the LORD, and I doubt he considered his zealous behaviour as sin. That all changed of course after his conversion, which probably caused him to believe he was chief of sinners.

Is that unintentional sin?

Slug1
Jan 3rd 2012, 09:05 PM
Though Paul's actions against the Messianic sect following Jesus were intentional, he assumed he was acting on the behalf of the LORD, and I doubt he considered his zealous behaviour as sin. That all changed of course after his conversion, which probably caused him to believe he was chief of sinners.

Is that unintentional sin?You mean the acts he did before he was in Christ?

Well, after his conversion... did "God" convict him of those acts before his conversion or did he "himself" hold himself to those acts before his conversion while he was out and about spreading the Gospel???

keck553
Jan 4th 2012, 12:23 AM
You mean the acts he did before he was in Christ?

Well, after his conversion... did "God" convict him of those acts before his conversion or did he "himself" hold himself to those acts before his conversion while he was out and about spreading the Gospel???

Yes, his persecution of the followers of Jesus. I think after his conversion he realized he was against God during this time, and his intentions didn't count for squat. That should convict any believer.

Personally I think the Word of God convicts anyone who reads it, Holy Spirit notwithstanding. Believers repent when convicted and unbelievers when convicted stiffen their necks and scoff and rebel. I think unbelievers are mostly made up of people who don't want to give up their sense of control and dominion over their lives and their actions, and thier doctrine isn't as much based on unbelief as it is rebellion. I've seen this many times, even in myself (previously).

Slug1
Jan 4th 2012, 01:35 AM
Yes, his persecution of the followers of Jesus. I think after his conversion he realized he was against God during this time, and his intentions didn't count for squat. That should convict any believer.

Personally I think the Word of God convicts anyone who reads it, Holy Spirit notwithstanding. Believers repent when convicted and unbelievers when convicted stiffen their necks and scoff and rebel. I think unbelievers are mostly made up of people who don't want to give up their sense of control and dominion over their lives and their actions, and thier doctrine isn't as much based on unbelief as it is rebellion. I've seen this many times, even in myself (previously).Hooah, I agree with this!! I recall many a rebellion period to include those while IN CHRIST and I was being double-minded.

notuptome
Jan 4th 2012, 02:26 AM
Yes, his persecution of the followers of Jesus. I think after his conversion he realized he was against God during this time, and his intentions didn't count for squat. That should convict any believer.

Personally I think the Word of God convicts anyone who reads it, Holy Spirit notwithstanding. Believers repent when convicted and unbelievers when convicted stiffen their necks and scoff and rebel. I think unbelievers are mostly made up of people who don't want to give up their sense of control and dominion over their lives and their actions, and thier doctrine isn't as much based on unbelief as it is rebellion. I've seen this many times, even in myself (previously).
Unintentional sin is pretty much an OT doctrine and is based on the corrupt high preists not killing the blood sacrifices that were brought to them as offerings for sin. The one who brought the offering and did not witness the killing of the sacrifice but trusted the preists to do it left assuming that the sacrifice had been made when it was not.

NT the action of the Holy Spirit makes mainfest sin in mans heart. Conviction of sin for the unbeliever to bring them to Christ and conviction in the heart of the believer to bring them closer to Christ. All sin according to James comes from lust in mans heart. Rom 1 speaks of those who know they are sinning and the judgment for sin yet continue to sin without any intention to change.

For a NT believer to chase unintentional sin soon runs afoul of legalism and meritorious effort in salvation which is opposed to grace. Rebellion is intent and nothing in the way of sin escapes the convicting power of the Holy Spirit operating through the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

keck553
Jan 4th 2012, 07:13 PM
Unintentional sin is pretty much an OT doctrine and is based on the corrupt high preists not killing the blood sacrifices that were brought to them as offerings for sin. The one who brought the offering and did not witness the killing of the sacrifice but trusted the preists to do it left assuming that the sacrifice had been made when it was not.

That's not what the Bible says....

Numbers 15:27

“‘But if just one person sins unintentionally, that person must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. 28 The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made, that person will be forgiven. 29 One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you.



NT the action of the Holy Spirit makes mainfest sin in mans heart. Conviction of sin for the unbeliever to bring them to Christ and conviction in the heart of the believer to bring them closer to Christ. All sin according to James comes from lust in mans heart. Rom 1 speaks of those who know they are sinning and the judgment for sin yet continue to sin without any intention to change.

That's not entirely true either. you know what is sin because your Bible tells you what is sin. It's not a magical osmosis event. The Holy Spirit convicts a person who already knows they are sinning because he's been told or read in the Bible what a sin is. Many people feel convicted for doing something that isn't even defined as sin in the Bible, like drinking a glass of wine or dancing. Many non-Christians feel as convicted as Christians for doing something taught as bad behaviour by their religion.

One can't run around just chasing their feelings. We need God's Word to define what is pleasing to God and what is not pleasing to God.

notuptome
Jan 5th 2012, 09:35 PM
That's not what the Bible says....

Numbers 15:27

“‘But if just one person sins unintentionally, that person must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. 28 The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made, that person will be forgiven. 29 One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you.
Does the law of Moses require intent in order to be transgressed?

That's not entirely true either. you know what is sin because your Bible tells you what is sin. It's not a magical osmosis event. The Holy Spirit convicts a person who already knows they are sinning because he's been told or read in the Bible what a sin is. Many people feel convicted for doing something that isn't even defined as sin in the Bible, like drinking a glass of wine or dancing. Many non-Christians feel as convicted as Christians for doing something taught as bad behaviour by their religion.

One can't run around just chasing their feelings. We need God's Word to define what is pleasing to God and what is not pleasing to God.
Well I agree about not chasing feelings and following the word of God.

God has written upon the hearts of His people His commandments so they are ever present with us. The Holy Spirit is our teacher leading us into the truth of what God has written in our lives. Sinners according to Gods word are convicted of sin that they might be drawn to Christ and saved. While sinners may wrestle with sin especially religious sinners they are powerless to overcome sin. James tells us that we sin when we lust and that is intent. One can sin against the law without intent because the law has no wiggle room. Break one part of the law had you have broken all of the law.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

david
Jan 6th 2012, 07:52 AM
Sin is an archery term for missing the mark. Unless the arrow hits a perfect bulls-eye...it sins in a direction. Can you imagine how difficult it is to hit the perfect bulls-eye, say the size of a pin prick at 50 paces? There are those who wouldn't even try (sins of Omission) and there are those who might let their pride get the best of them and give it a shot (sins of commission) though they have never practiced that shot before. If you are lucky, there might be one out of a thousand who has studied shots like that and can pull it off.


I think this is an important point. Sin by definition means missing the mark. It does not always mean intentional error which many people might assume to be. In fact the Bible itself mentions "unintentional sin" in many passages (Hebrews 9:7, Leviticus 4:2, 13, 22, 27, 5:15, Numbers 15:22, 24, 27, 28). Sin cannot possibly mean intentional error if it is written in that form, because then it would read "unintentional intentional error." That kind of error doesn't exist. Either make it intentional or unintentional error. "Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil." Matthew 5:37

Paul once said that there could have been sin that is beyond his awareness:
"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me." 1 Corinthians 4:3-4

Yet he doesn't acquit himself for not being aware of his sins, because he's not confident enough to say that he's guiltless. Either this is about unintentional or intentional sin, up to you all to judge.

david
Jan 6th 2012, 07:53 AM
Put these two verses together and decide whether there is a perfect man on earth:
"if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man." James 3:2
"no human being can tame the tongue." James 3:8

Since there's apparently no perfect man on earth, then the OT proverb holds true still:
"Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins." Ecclesiastes 7:20
“there is no one who does not sin—" 1 Kings 8:46

But if that's true, then why would Jesus tell us to stop sinning?
“See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.” John 5:14
“Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.” John 8:11

The answer is that it means stop sinning in your heart. Intentional sins occur in the heart (Mark 7:21); but unintentional sins occur in the flesh (Romans 7:25). The former comes from within; the latter comes from without. When one is pure in heart, that means he has ceased from sinning from within. One does not need to be pure in the flesh to go to heaven. James already proved there is no perfect man on earth. You can't be perfect in your flesh (at least not in this life), but you can be perfect in your heart. Indeed, only the pure in heart shall see God (Matthew 5:8). And you can be perfect at this very moment if you so choose. Choose in your heart to stop sinning forever and ever. Then you will find out eventually that unintentional sins come from your flesh, from without, not from within yourself. Then you will stop condemning yourself for unintentional sins.

To choose in your heart to stop sinning forever is to consider yourself as dead to sin and alive to God. Paul said, "So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus (Romans 6:11)." If you don't consider yourself dead to sin, then you are still living in your sins. Even worse scenario is if you do consider yourself dead to sin and yet live in sin. This is lying to yourself. You can't live in sin and yet say you are not living in sin. Either you are dead to sin, or you aren't. Be true to yourself. "Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil (Matthew 5:37)."