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fewarechosen
Jan 9th 2012, 11:17 PM
this mainly spawns from another thread.

in that thread i said God does no evil. perhaps i need to think on that longer.

in the other thread we were debating/discussing about evil and if God created it.

some are of opinion he didnt, i was of opinion he did.

i then looked into the topic of evil in scripture and started to read around, because by no means do i think i know it all and i wanted to learn more, and this is what i stumbled upon.


all words for evil are h7451 in quoted scripture to follow

the first mention of evil in scripture.

Gen_2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

this scripture about God creating evil.
Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these {i things.

now scripture below speaks thoughts of mans heart and how they are evil

Gen_6:5And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


Jer_44:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah; and, behold, this day they are a desolation, and no man dwelleth therein,

Jer_44:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will set my face against you for evil, and to cut off all Judah.

Jer_44:27 Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.

Jer_45:5 And seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not: for, behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD: but thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Lam 3:39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
Lam 3:40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.

Jer 52:2 And he did that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD, according to all that Jehoiakim had done.

fewarechosen
Jan 9th 2012, 11:23 PM
so now earlier i said God did no evil
after lookin in scripture more it appears he does.

the same evil he told people not to do - he himself said it comes from his mouth and he would subject people to and has done.

by all means read all these in context, I dont want to think i just randomly grabbed scripture, and all these "evil" are same in concordence, and many more that i did not post.

can you find any scripture saying God does no evil ?

lets find scripture First - it is fine to have an opinion but i would like scripture listed first

rejoice44
Jan 10th 2012, 12:26 AM
so now earlier i said God did no evil
after lookin in scripture more it appears he does.

the same evil he told people not to do - he himself said it comes from his mouth and he would subject people to and has done.

by all means read all these in context, I dont want to think i just randomly grabbed scripture, and all these "evil" are same in concordence, and many more that i did not post.

can you find any scripture saying God does no evil ?

lets find scripture First - it is fine to have an opinion but i would like scripture listed first

Evil does not necessarily equate to sin. When God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah that was evil, but it was also just. God is good, and only God is good.

Slug1
Jan 10th 2012, 12:33 AM
Evil does not necessarily equate to sin. When God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah that was evil, but it was also just. God is good, and only God is good.I don't think we can comprehend a true definition of exactly what evil is??

I mean, if the act of destroying those cities can be considered evil, then God does a whole BUNCH of evil.

Is man evil if they are obedient to God when they are told to slaughter human life and they do it?

It's a sin to be disobedient to God's commands... so when God says to go into a city and slaughter all life to include the men, women and children and also the livestock... does man sin for doing evil in destroying the life of a city, or in saying NO to God?

We need to define "evil" because God doesn't do anything that is evil.

Protective Angel
Jan 10th 2012, 12:50 AM
Seems like most references are of Gods punishments

The one I think concerns me is Isa 45:7 saying God created evil.

Second, notice that the tree of knowledge contains both GOOD AND EVIL. We know the evil that Adam and Eve recieved, but did any GOOD come from eating?

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 01:15 AM
i am not speaking of sin only evil

and i agree slug, i am trying to see what scripture says is evil.

i think in the terms i have seen in these scriptures - he would indeed be doing a bunch of evil
slug i would think if the person was told from God to kill and didnt then that would be a sin and would be evil of that person. example i can think of was moses i think where they divided the people as to who stood with him and against (paraphrase).


now im not saying hes sinning or doing something wrong, but from the concepts laid forth in scripture it appears he says he did create and does evil, not saying that as a character flaw of God or something like that, just trying to figure out his definition so when things are spoken of as evil i have a solid understanding.

and by all means i am open to any scripture that says something to speak against this idea or flesh it out further because i am trying to form more solid thoughts myself.

in my mind if God says he created evil and uses it he is just to do so and its up to me to come to grips with it.

Slug1
Jan 10th 2012, 01:22 AM
in my mind if God says he created evil and uses it he is just to do so and its up to me to come to grips with it.Seems that it's "our" perception of evil that helps us OR hinders us in understanding and coming to grips with "what" is evil.

If we determine that killing is evil... then we serve an "evil" God.

Since that isn't true... then we need to perceive and understand "evil" the same way that God does.

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 01:46 AM
i find no account in scripture that it would be correct to say - God is evil

i do find account in scripture that it would be correct to say - God does evil

would anyone agree with statement - God does evil ?

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

good proceeds from his mouth and so does evil

david
Jan 10th 2012, 02:08 AM
i find no account in scripture that it would be correct to say - God is evil

i do find account in scripture that it would be correct to say - God does evil

would anyone agree with statement - God does evil ?

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

good proceeds from his mouth and so does evil
In my opinion, he brings evil upon all flesh to discipline them.
And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:5-11
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol. Proverbs 23:13-14
And they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him. Job 42:11

would you be convinced that bringing evil upon all flesh (jer 45.5) is not the same as doing sin?
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21
He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. 1 Peter 2:22

LookingUp
Jan 10th 2012, 02:10 AM
NO! GOD DOES NOT DO EVIL!


this mainly spawns from another thread.

in that thread i said God does no evil. perhaps i need to think on that longer.Is God perfectly good? Are good and evil opposites? How can a perfectly good God BE/DO evil?


in the other thread we were debating/discussing about evil and if God created it.

some are of opinion he didnt, i was of opinion he did.Did God create existence?


i then looked into the topic of evil in scripture and started to read around, because by no means do i think i know it all and i wanted to learn more, and this is what i stumbled upon.


all words for evil are h7451 in quoted scripture to follow

the first mention of evil in scripture.

Gen_2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.Are you willing to believe that God created an actual tree that had the ability to produce fruit that would give knowledge of good and evil? And if so, does that “knowledge” of evil mean that God created evil? If not, how does this Scripture support the idea that God “created” evil?


this scripture about God creating evil.
Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these {i things.This passage is addressing the future deliverance of the children of Israel out of Babylon (Isa. 45:1-6). The “light” and “darkness” refer to “liberation” and “captivity” (as in Isa. 9:1; Lam. 3:2). The “evil” refers to the “disaster” with which God plans to curse Babylon. God’s “creating” here is not ex nihilo but an action which gives specific shape to a situation of historical judgment (Terrence Fretheim). In other words, God does not cause or ordain evil. This passage is not related to God’s “cosmic sovereign activity” but specifically relates to prophecy regarding what will take place on the nation who chooses to oppose the Almighty God.


now scripture below speaks thoughts of mans heart and how they are evil

Gen_6:5And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.In context, we see this is related to the sexual perversion that was rampant in those days (Gen. 6:1-4). Does God struggle with this same kind of sexual perversion? Does He create it?


Jer_44:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah; and, behold, this day they are a desolation, and no man dwelleth therein,What kind of “evil” do you suppose this is? Sexual evil? Murderous evil? Or could it possibly be another word for disaster? Is it at all possible that we have one word—evil—used to describe more than one kind of act?

Or do you even consider that the phrase used “I have brought” means that He has allowed this evil to come upon them? God takes responsibility in the sense that He has allowed/brought it but He never is the causer of it.


Jer_44:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will set my face against you for evil, and to cut off all Judah.

Jer_44:27 Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.

Jer_45:5 And seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not: for, behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD: but thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Lam 3:39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
Lam 3:40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.

Jer 52:2 And he did that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD, according to all that Jehoiakim had done.
Think about this. Those actually and physically committing the evil are persons/people with the free will to choose to do so. It is not God taking hold of their hands and feet and MAKING them commit such acts. He ALLOWS it and He, being the great and wonderful God He is actually assumes some responsibility because He allows it to take place. Don’t you see? That doesn’t mean HE DOES IT. He doesn’t create it or do it or take part in it. He allows us to create and take part in our own evil ways and desires. When He allows it, Scripture speaks as if He brings it. He, personally and literally, does not bring it. We BRING it. We are responsible! We are the ones who choose to commit these atrocities! Not God. But our precious, beautiful, incomprehensibly loving God takes the fall. He takes the fall when He is the One who is flawless.

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 02:18 AM
In my opinion, he brings evil upon all flesh to discipline them.
And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:5-11
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol. Proverbs 23:13-14
And they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him. Job 42:11

would you be convinced that bringing evil upon all flesh (jer 45.5) is not the same as doing sin?
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21
He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. 1 Peter 2:22

i am only speaking of evil, not speaking of sin at all, not relating sin to evil in any way that a different discussion.

david
Jan 10th 2012, 02:37 AM
i am only speaking of evil, not speaking of sin at all, not relating sin to evil in any way that a different discussion.


Thing is, evil can be spoken of as sin and also as disaster in general.
There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Romans 2:9-11
because of his sins that he committed, doing evil in the sight of the LORD, walking in the way of Jeroboam, and for his sin which he committed, making Israel to sin. 1 Kings 16:19
So Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD and did not wholly follow the LORD, as David his father had done. 1 Kings 11:6


It says "all unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17)." If God did not do unrighteousness, and evil is not unrighteousness, what is it then? There must be two kinds of evil.

Silvermist
Jan 10th 2012, 04:42 AM
Maybe evil is destructiveness and God uses destructiveness to destroy destructiveness, which is a good thing. Only God knows whether people will eventually repent or not, therefor He can use destructiveness to bring about good. A minus and a minus is a plus. Does that make sense?

david
Jan 10th 2012, 04:48 AM
Maybe evil is destructiveness and God uses destructiveness to destroy destructiveness, which is a good thing. Only God knows whether people will eventually repent or not, therefor He can use destructiveness to bring about good. A minus and a minus is a plus. Does that make sense?

yea that does make sense.
Folly (evil) is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it (evil) far from him. Proverbs 22:15 = good

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 03:36 PM
Maybe evil is destructiveness and God uses destructiveness to destroy destructiveness, which is a good thing. Only God knows whether people will eventually repent or not, therefor He can use destructiveness to bring about good. A minus and a minus is a plus. Does that make sense?

i am thinking along these lines, if i recall right he speaks of the sword, famine,plague that he will unleash on some.

i also note scriptures like david last posted and how that applies.

i recall this
and im only speaking to those who feel God might make evil and he might do evil

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.


lets go along the lines of evil being destructiveness to see if it gels with scripture.

satan wanted God to allow him to do (evil)(destroy jobs things) to Job
God said ok (not judging his reasons,im sure he did it to prove a point to satan and job and his friends)- and let evil befall Job

other examples i can think of -rains on just and unjust- and explains why destructive things(cancer/murder)evil befalls us all.

so in the story it would appear satan had no power to do evil(destructive) to anyone unless God gives him the ok and it would appear he oks it.

the concept of "destructiveness" i think is a good start to consider

it gels with him making evil, using evil

the negative negative makes sense to me as well as davids post about -rod and child it seems to fit

as a side note i dont tie this to sin at all, cause Gods doing evil but he sure aint sinning

i think of putting a sick pet to sleep, you are destroying it and you feel bad, but your doing it for their own good if they are suffering. so you feel bad cause its "destructive" yet you will do it to do good and spare them.

if God uses evil to strip the ground so good things can be planted it would be for good.

thank you for your thoughts silvermist

rejoice44
Jan 10th 2012, 04:05 PM
satan wanted God to allow him to do (evil)(destroy jobs things) to Job
God said ok (not judging his reasons,im sure he did it to prove a point to satan and job and his friends)- and let evil befall Job

God allowed chaos to come into Job's life that Job might repent and be converted.

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 04:14 PM
God allowed chaos to come into Job's life that Job might repent and be converted.

i disagree thats what Jobs friends told him

this is what scripture says

Job_1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.


job didnt have to repent of anything this is also noted

Job_2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job 10:7 Thou knowest that I am not wicked; and there is none that can deliver out of thine hand.

God never said Job did any sin, after job spoke God comes to him says he spoke right and his friends spoke wrong.

scripture says he was perfect so you know its not as punishment to correct him.

Fenris
Jan 10th 2012, 04:15 PM
God allowed chaos to come into Job's life that Job might repent and be converted.
I thought Job was a good guy at the beginning of the book too...

Also, "chaos"? lol.

keyzer soze
Jan 10th 2012, 04:36 PM
i don't have time or a second hand to operate a mouse so i am going to post a few thoughts that i do get from scripture to paint the picture as i see it:

- who creates all life? God
- who do we have to thank for every blessing we have? God
- what blessings do we deserve on our own merit? none
- does God have the right to do with his creation as he wishes for his pleasure including taking it away for reasons totally hidden from us? i say yes and so does Job

18 While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, “Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, 19 when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:

“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
and naked I will depart.
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised.”

22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

Silvermist
Jan 10th 2012, 04:46 PM
God is good. It is the motive behind the use of evil that matters. God's motives are pure.

rejoice44
Jan 10th 2012, 04:55 PM
i disagree thats what Jobs friends told him

this is what scripture says

Job_1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.


job didnt have to repent of anything this is also noted

Job_2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job 10:7 Thou knowest that I am not wicked; and there is none that can deliver out of thine hand.

God never said Job did any sin, after job spoke God comes to him says he spoke right and his friends spoke wrong.

scripture says he was perfect so you know its not as punishment to correct him.

I don't want to dis-rail this thread, but God showed kindness to Job by what he did.

rejoice44
Jan 10th 2012, 04:56 PM
I thought Job was a good guy at the beginning of the book too...

Also, "chaos"? lol.

And God is the bad guy, right?

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 05:11 PM
And God is the bad guy, right?

no one said anything about him being bad

we are discussing what he says in scripture

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 05:13 PM
God is good. It is the motive behind the use of evil that matters. God's motives are pure.

i agree, would you feel it correct to say

God does evil ?

not saying he is evil or sins or anything like that

but created it and is just to use it because he knows all mens hearts.

Fenris
Jan 10th 2012, 05:15 PM
And God is the bad guy, right?
God does evil. Not "chaos".

It's in the bible.

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 05:15 PM
I don't want to dis-rail this thread, but God showed kindness to Job by what he did.

please show scripture that say as much in Job if you say something like that. where is anything that befalls him described as kind in scripture.

rejoice44
Jan 10th 2012, 05:21 PM
please show scripture that say as much in Job if you say something like that. where is anything that befalls him described as kind in scripture.

To bring someone to repentance and conversion is not kindness?

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 05:21 PM
i think the story of job is fitting in this case for a few reasons.

i said in the other thread God does no evil.

it would appear i was speaking a mistruth, a lie, i was ignorant of the lie, but it was still a lie and contrary to God.

i was speaking and saying something that is contrary to what Gods nature was, i was speaking as Jobs friends.

if i say God does no evil, and someone believes me did i not just draw them away from light and towards darkness ?

i ponder such things because i know im accountable for every word from my mouth.

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 05:25 PM
To bring someone to repentance and conversion is not kindness?

where is the scripture ?

scripture posted above said he was perfect. i dont want to get bogged down if someone does not think perfect is faultless and get dragged into the definition of every word.

i do not see someone who is perfect needing to repent, no where in that scripture to my knowledge does God tell Job to repent. if you see someone who is perfect needing to repent i think that is a gap in a agreement that we could not come to any terms.

again please post scripture backing such an opinion.

rejoice44
Jan 10th 2012, 05:44 PM
where is the scripture ?

scripture posted above said he was perfect. i dont want to get bogged down if someone does not think perfect is faultless and get dragged into the definition of every word.

i do not see someone who is perfect needing to repent, no where in that scripture to my knowledge does God tell Job to repent. if you see someone who is perfect needing to repent i think that is a gap in a agreement that we could not come to any terms.

again please post scripture backing such an opinion.

I ask you to think on the first words that God spoke to Job and consider that they are nearly identical to the words of Elihu.

God said to Job, "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" (Job 38:2)

Elihu said to Job, "Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom." (Job 34:5)

God said to Job, "Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me." (Job 38:3)

Elihu said to Job, "If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up." (Job 33:5)

God said to Job, "Then will I confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee." (Job 40:14)

Elihu said to Job, "But thou hast fulfilled the judgment of the wicked: judgment and justice take hold on thee. (Job 36:17)

turtledove
Jan 10th 2012, 05:54 PM
God is good and, therefore, it follows that God does not "do" evil. The source of evil is the devil and it is through the devil and the power he has that evil has entered the world. Originally the devil chose to rebell against God. And Adam and Eve chose to listen to the devil instead of obeying God and so also chose to rebell. Evil exists because of that fall into sin and because of that the orignial state of mankind was lost. Thus as Dante said: "paradise lost." See the first few chapters of Genesis.

The Good News is that God has made a way for a fallen mankind to overcome evil by sending His Son to die for our sins and so that those who believe and accept that salvation through Jesus may have everlasting life. Through Christ paradise lost can be paradise regained. Others have rightly quoted scriptures here so I am sayin only that John 3:16..(quoted often) sums this up for me.

This does not mean that bad things don't happen. We are not in paradise regained( the heavenly city) yet. And it is humbling to realize that despite our salvation we can still chose to sin and experience the effects of our own sins. So, too, the sins of others and evil in the world can influence and affect our lives. Because God is sovereign this is permitted and out of it God can bring good and often does..like in, as mentioned on this thread, the restoration of Job.

We walk by faith in the goodness of a loving God. A God who is merciful as well as just, a God who sees beyond our focus..who sees a bigger picture. A God who is Love as well as Good.

In the end it will all be much clearer to us now than it is now.

"Praise ye the LORD. O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever." (Psalm 106:1) (KJV) :)




my 2 cents.

peace..:saint:

LookingUp
Jan 10th 2012, 05:59 PM
i don't have time or a second hand to operate a mouse so i am going to post a few thoughts that i do get from scripture to paint the picture as i see it:

- who creates all life? God
- who do we have to thank for every blessing we have? God
- what blessings do we deserve on our own merit? none
- does God have the right to do with his creation as he wishes for his pleasure including taking it away for reasons totally hidden from us? i say yes and so does Job

18 While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, “Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, 19 when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:

“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
and naked I will depart.
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised.”

22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.It's not a sin to have an incorrect theology. Job's theology was flawed, but he didn't sin.

LookingUp
Jan 10th 2012, 06:06 PM
I ask you to think on the first words that God spoke to Job and consider that they are nearly identical to the words of Elihu.

God said to Job, "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" (Job 38:2)

Elihu said to Job, "Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom." (Job 34:5)

God said to Job, "Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me." (Job 38:3)

Elihu said to Job, "If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up." (Job 33:5)

God said to Job, "Then will I confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee." (Job 40:14)

Elihu said to Job, "But thou hast fulfilled the judgment of the wicked: judgment and justice take hold on thee. (Job 36:17)Nice. And Job did repent. "Therefore now I retract, and I repent in dust and ashes." I, personally, don't think Job intentionally sinned. He was speaking out of ignorance, God enlightened him, and he repented of his foolish words.

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 06:07 PM
i wanted to find some more scripture supporting God doing evil.

i notice no scripture posted yet saying he doesnt.

again this is the same concordence def

he told them he was going to do evil, rips them up with it, then says those that remain will know i am the Lord

i will take scriptures word that he does evil and created it so far i have seen no scripture to refute it and only more that support it.

Eze 6:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 6:2 Son of man, set thy face toward the mountains of Israel, and prophesy against them,
Eze 6:3 And say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places.
Eze 6:4 And your altars shall be desolate, and your images shall be broken: and I will cast down your slain men before your idols.
Eze 6:5 And I will lay the dead carcases of the children of Israel before their idols; and I will scatter your bones round about your altars.
Eze 6:6 In all your dwellingplaces the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places shall be desolate; that your altars may be laid waste and made desolate, and your idols may be broken and cease, and your images may be cut down, and your works may be abolished.
Eze 6:7 And the slain shall fall in the midst of you, and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 6:8 Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries.
Eze 6:9 And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captives, because I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a whoring after their idols: and they shall lothe themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations.
Eze 6:10 And they shall know that I am the LORD, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them.

LookingUp
Jan 10th 2012, 06:10 PM
i wanted to find some more scripture supporting God doing evil.

i notice no scripture posted yet saying he doesnt.

again this is the same concordence def

he told them he was going to do evil, rips them up with it, then says those that remain will know i am the Lord

i will take scriptures word that he does evil and created it so far i have seen no scripture to refute it and only more that support it.

Eze 6:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 6:2 Son of man, set thy face toward the mountains of Israel, and prophesy against them,
Eze 6:3 And say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places.
Eze 6:4 And your altars shall be desolate, and your images shall be broken: and I will cast down your slain men before your idols.
Eze 6:5 And I will lay the dead carcases of the children of Israel before their idols; and I will scatter your bones round about your altars.
Eze 6:6 In all your dwellingplaces the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places shall be desolate; that your altars may be laid waste and made desolate, and your idols may be broken and cease, and your images may be cut down, and your works may be abolished.
Eze 6:7 And the slain shall fall in the midst of you, and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 6:8 Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries.
Eze 6:9 And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captives, because I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a whoring after their idols: and they shall lothe themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations.
Eze 6:10 And they shall know that I am the LORD, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them.
Why do you insist that when some translator uses the word "evil" for disaster or calamity that God must commit evil? If you want to define punishment by God as evil, then do it. But you're being misleading.

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 06:11 PM
I ask you to think on the first words that God spoke to Job and consider that they are nearly identical to the words of Elihu.

God said to Job, "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" (Job 38:2)

Elihu said to Job, "Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom." (Job 34:5)

God said to Job, "Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me." (Job 38:3)

Elihu said to Job, "If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up." (Job 33:5)

God said to Job, "Then will I confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee." (Job 40:14)

Elihu said to Job, "But thou hast fulfilled the judgment of the wicked: judgment and justice take hold on thee. (Job 36:17)

i could not disagree more,

elihu spoke in error - so dotn quote a person who spoke in error as proof of Gods will

did you see who spoke for 2 chapters right when God came to Job and asked Job "who is this that darkens" he was speaking of elihu that was the person who just got done speaking.

Job_42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

Job spoke right and the others spoke wrong, God said so. elihu spoke in error not truth.

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 06:12 PM
this mainly spawns from another thread.

in that thread i said God does no evil. perhaps i need to think on that longer.

in the other thread we were debating/discussing about evil and if God created it.

some are of opinion he didnt, i was of opinion he did.

i then looked into the topic of evil in scripture and started to read around, because by no means do i think i know it all and i wanted to learn more, and this is what i stumbled upon.


all words for evil are h7451 in quoted scripture to follow

the first mention of evil in scripture.

Gen_2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

this scripture about God creating evil.
Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these {i things.

now scripture below speaks thoughts of mans heart and how they are evil

Gen_6:5And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


Jer_44:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah; and, behold, this day they are a desolation, and no man dwelleth therein,

Jer_44:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will set my face against you for evil, and to cut off all Judah.

Jer_44:27 Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.

Jer_45:5 And seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not: for, behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD: but thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Lam 3:39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
Lam 3:40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.

Jer 52:2 And he did that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD, according to all that Jehoiakim had done.
You don't seem to understand what the word evil means. To do evil is to do wrong. To be evil is to be bad. It is the opposite of good. Evil is anything done against God's will. So, how could God do something against His own will? How could God do anything wrong or bad? He can't. The answer to your question about whether God does evil is an emphatic NO.

Fenris
Jan 10th 2012, 06:15 PM
Why do you insist that when some translator uses the word "evil" for disaster or calamity that God must commit evil?
The word in Hebrew actually means "evil".

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 06:19 PM
Why do you insist that when some translator uses the word "evil" for disaster or calamity that God must commit evil? If you want to define punishment by God as evil, then do it. But you're being misleading.

why would insist that the very same word for evil in all those cases changes ?

i am showing scripture.

if we start going down translation route then i can say every word was translated by a translater and can come to all sorts of conclusions, many do.

you can say this same evil mentioned here is different from the very same definition spoken of that is in mens heart. h7451

scripture says he created it and does it, I think i will stick with that.

Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these {i things.

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 06:23 PM
i find no account in scripture that it would be correct to say - God is evil

i do find account in scripture that it would be correct to say - God does evil

would anyone agree with statement - God does evil ?Absolutely not.


Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

good proceeds from his mouth and so does evilDefine the word "evil" then. The Hebrew word translated as "evil" there can mean calamity or destruction. He certainly does bring destruction and calamity on people as punishment but that doesn't mean it's evil, as in wicked. His judgments and punishments are just, not evil. The word "evil" means wicked, bad, wrong, etc. and is the opposite of holiness and righteousness. God is only good/righteous and not evil/wicked at all. If you're going to claim that God does evil then you need to clarify the definition of the word that you're using because it should be clear that God doesn't cause or do wickedness.

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 06:26 PM
The word in Hebrew actually means "evil".That's one of the definitions of the word but it can also mean calamity, distress or adversity. If someone is going to claim that God does "evil" then they need to clarify which definition of the Hebrew word they are using.

Fenris
Jan 10th 2012, 06:26 PM
The Hebrew word translated as "evil" there can mean calamity or destruction.
There are other Hebrew words for "calamity" or "destruction" or "disaster" or whatever.

The words means "evil".

People don't see anything wrong with shopping around for a translation that fits their theology?

Fenris
Jan 10th 2012, 06:28 PM
That's one of the definitions of the word but it can also mean calamity, distress or adversity. It means "evil".


If someone is going to claim that God does "evil" then they need to clarify which definition of the Hebrew word they are using.Or maybe it means what it says. That it's all from God, the good things and the bad things too. Our tiny minds just don't understand how, and it's the challenge of the believer to accept it.

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 06:29 PM
You don't seem to understand what the word evil means. To do evil is to do wrong. To be evil is to be bad. It is the opposite of good. Evil is anything done against God's will. So, how could God do something against His own will? How could God do anything wrong or bad? He can't. The answer to your question about whether God does evil is an emphatic NO.

that is the definition you are using, that doesnt gel with me in scripture.

he doesnt say anything in there about evil is bad that i can find.

he speaks of creating it and using it then uses that exact same word and says mens thoughts/hearts are on it.

he never says evil is anything against Gods will - please find scrupture
he never says him doing evil is wrong or bad - please find scripture

just because the world says evil is bad doesnt mean God says so, i defer to scripture, he made it he uses it.

i see that it seems i will be disagreeing with most on this aspect, I have not seen any scripture refuting the scripture above that says God created evil and uses it. all i am seeing is what people want to define evil as without the use of scripture.

but we are all free to see what we see, i judge no one

Brother Mark
Jan 10th 2012, 06:31 PM
If one does an evil action, does that mean he has an evil heart? God did evil things in the scriptures. We see that over and over again. When he brought judgment on folks he called it evil. God even talks of repenting of the evil he was going to do to someone.

Jer 26:3

3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.
KJV

Calamity and destruction are evil! But if God does those things, his purpose is right in doing them. there are things God reserves for himself that we cannot do and if we do them, then we are being evil and committing evil. When God does them, he is not being evil, even if what he does is evil.

Having wrote all that, I still think one of our biggest issues with scripture is not that we don't understand it, but rather, we don't believe it. If scripture says that God does evil, then shouldn't we believe it? Perhaps we may need to understand better what God is saying or that our understanding of the word is wrong, or something else about it is wrong. For scripture doesn't teach that God is evil. But it does say he has done evil.

For instance, could God be using the word evil in one place concerning man and be talking about his course of life? While using evil in another place to describe the calamity that God would bring down in judgement because of a man's course of life?

Grace and peace,

Mark

Fenris
Jan 10th 2012, 06:33 PM
Having wrote all that, I still think one of our biggest issues with scripture is not that we don't understand it, but rather, we don't believe it. If scripture says that God does evil, then shouldn't we believe it?
Or you can just shop around for another translation that doesn't say "evil".

Presto, problem solved!

LookingUp
Jan 10th 2012, 06:34 PM
why would insist that the very same word for evil in all those cases changes ?

i am showing scripture.

if we start going down translation route then i can say every word was translated by a translater and can come to all sorts of conclusions, many do.

you can say this same evil mentioned here is different from the very same definition spoken of that is in mens heart. h7451

scripture says he created it and does it, I think i will stick with that.

Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these {i things.I already replied to the Isaiah verse a couple times, as you know. Read it in context. God isn't committing evil (i.e. acting wickedly) against Babylon, He is committing evil (i.e. punishing, causing disaster & calamity) against Babylon because of their wickedness. HUGE difference. The problem isn't necessarily with the word, but what you're insinuating when you use the word without defining it properly within its context. The word takes on completely different meanings in each context. Surely you understand that? Surely you know God doesn't commit the same kinds of evil (i.e. rape, murder, theft) that we do?

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 06:34 PM
There are other Hebrew words for "calamity" or "destruction" or "disaster" or whatever.

The words means "evil". It also can mean calamity or destruction.


People don't see anything wrong with shopping around for a translation that fits their theology?You mean like you do?

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 06:35 PM
It means "evil". It can also mean calamity or destruction. I can do this all day if you want.


Or maybe it means what it says. That it's all from God, the good things and the bad things too. Our tiny minds just don't understand how, and it's the challenge of the believer to accept it.Are you claiming that God does wickedness then?

Fenris
Jan 10th 2012, 06:36 PM
It also can mean calamity or destruction.No, there are different words for that.


You mean like you do?:hmm: I don't think so. Where have I done that?

Fenris
Jan 10th 2012, 06:39 PM
Are you claiming that God does wickedness then?

Is everything that happens in this world, the good and the bad, God's will? Yes.

Was the First Temple's destruction God's will? Yes, the bible even says so.

Was the ingathering of the exiles and the building of the Second Temple also God's will? Yes.

Was the Destruction of the Second Temple God's will? Yes

Was the Holocaust God's will? Yes.

Was the building of the modern state of Israel God's will? Yes.

It's all from God.

Rullion Green
Jan 10th 2012, 06:43 PM
To answer the question i think terms have to be defined, i 'll define Evil / sin as breaking Gods order and laws. Laws are self explanatory, i would try to explain order as the nature of things as God intended... man was made to be with a woman this is Gods order and to break it is sin imo.

For God to be evil would be a non sequiter as they are His laws and He is immutable in Character He is the same today yesterday and will be the same tomorrow, His laws reflect His character... He is perfectly good. BUT ! He is not under His laws, He is Ex lex (not bound by laws). This seems to be overlooked because we as humans seem to think God should do what we have to do and play by the same rules as we do. Rom 9:20 would be fitting for an answer imo.

who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"

Granted this view does nothing for human self esteem and pride, and brings us down a few notches.

If this is so, it seems to me God is well able to use evil as He sees fit, be it for judgement in the case of the Amelakites or for any other purpose, we may never understand like in the case of Job. For me this is where the attributes of God are so essential to trusting Him.

EX 34:6

The LORD passed in front of Moses, calling out, "Yahweh! The LORD! The God of compassion and mercy! I am slow to anger and filled with unfailing love and faithfulness.[/B]

Abraham was tested and Abraham trusted in God as a God of Faithfulness and Goodness despite the bad situation he was put in by God....Abraham trusted the Goodness of God believing that even if his cherished son was to be sacrificed God would be faithful to His promise. I pray i come close to Abraham's faith to believe in the goodness of God even in the bad times !

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 06:44 PM
It can also mean calamity or destruction. I can do this all day if you want.

Are you claiming that God does wickedness then?

wickedness is a different word, i have never seen that used in context with God to my knowledge as having done or doing.

if wickedness was evil the word evil would be used, but there is a dif between evil and wickedness.

Brother Mark
Jan 10th 2012, 06:45 PM
Or you can just shop around for another translation that doesn't say "evil".

Presto, problem solved!

LOL! Well, there's always that. :) Nice to talk to you again Fenris.

LookingUp
Jan 10th 2012, 06:45 PM
If one does an evil action, does that mean he has an evil heart?Yes, it is out of the heart that goodness or evil flows.


God did evil things in the scriptures. We see that over and over again. When he brought judgment on folks he called it evil. God even talks of repenting of the evil he was going to do to someone.

Jer 26:3

3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.
KJVOK, if we bring on disaster or calamity, it's wicked. If God does it, it's just. Call them both evil if you want to, but one is wicked and one is just. Because we have no right to judge and give out punishment. Only the just Judge does. His punishments are not evil.


Calamity and destruction are evil!Does our judge commit evil when he throws someone in jail for wrongdoing?


But if God does those things, his purpose is right in doing them. there are things God reserves for himself that we cannot do and if we do them, then we are being evil and committing evil. When God does them, he is not being evil, even if what he does is evil.So, if God chose to rape, it'd be evil but right?


Having wrote all that, I still think one of our biggest issues with scripture is not that we don't understand it, but rather, we don't believe it.It has nothing to do with belief, it has everything to do with common sense.


If scripture says that God does evil, then shouldn't we believe it?Put it in context! You can't just pull a couple Scriptures out of context and then "poof"--that's how you get yourselves some scary cults.

Fenris
Jan 10th 2012, 06:46 PM
LOL! Well, there's always that. :) Nice to talk to you again Fenris.The pleasure is all mine. :hug:

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 06:47 PM
that is the definition you are using, that doesnt gel with me in scripture.

he doesnt say anything in there about evil is bad that i can find.

he speaks of creating it and using it then uses that exact same word and says mens thoughts/hearts are on it.The word "evil" is obviously an English word. We're talking about things that were written in Hebrew. So, you're talking about verses where the Hebrew word is used to mean something different than evil/wickedness and instead means calamity or something similar. So, it would be best to use an English word besides "evil" to describe those things since the English word evil means wicked, bad, wrong, etc.


he never says evil is anything against Gods will - please find scrupture
he never says him doing evil is wrong or bad - please find scriptureI'm talking about the definition of the English word "evil". God doesn't do that since evil is wickedness.


just because the world says evil is bad doesnt mean God says so, i defer to scripture, he made it he uses it.

i see that it seems i will be disagreeing with most on this aspect, I have not seen any scripture refuting the scripture above that says God created evil and uses it. all i am seeing is what people want to define evil as without the use of scripture.You don't seem to understand that the Hebrew word translated sometimes as "evil" also has other definitions like calamity, adversity or distress. You seem to think the word can only have one definition, which is not the case.

LookingUp
Jan 10th 2012, 06:47 PM
wickedness is a different word, i have never seen that used in context with God to my knowledge as having done or doing.

if wickedness was evil the word evil would be used, but there is a dif between evil and wickedness.Not in our culture and not the unbelievers who want to know if God's evil. Another excuse to deny God! Great! As soon as an unbeliever pulls a quote out of context like you're doing and says, "See, why in the world would I want to serve a God who commits evil?" you'll have to agree with him. The word means different things in different contexts.

Brother Mark
Jan 10th 2012, 06:48 PM
A question for you guys.... can there be "natural evil" that is different from "moral evil"?

markedward
Jan 10th 2012, 06:50 PM
It can also mean calamity or destruction. I can do this all day if you want.Just curious: how fluent in Hebrew are you?

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 06:52 PM
If one does an evil action, does that mean he has an evil heart? God did evil things in the scriptures. We see that over and over again. When he brought judgment on folks he called it evil. God even talks of repenting of the evil he was going to do to someone.

Jer 26:3

3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.
KJV

Calamity and destruction are evil! But if God does those things, his purpose is right in doing them. there are things God reserves for himself that we cannot do and if we do them, then we are being evil and committing evil. When God does them, he is not being evil, even if what he does is evil.

Having wrote all that, I still think one of our biggest issues with scripture is not that we don't understand it, but rather, we don't believe it. If scripture says that God does evil, then shouldn't we believe it? Perhaps we may need to understand better what God is saying or that our understanding of the word is wrong, or something else about it is wrong. For scripture doesn't teach that God is evil. But it does say he has done evil.

For instance, could God be using the word evil in one place concerning man and be talking about his course of life? While using evil in another place to describe the calamity that God would bring down in judgement because of a man's course of life?

Grace and peace,

MarkIt all depends on which definition of the word you're using. If someone is going to try to say that God does wickedness than I have a serious issue with that because I know that He does not do wickedness. He is good, not wicked. Does He cause calamity and destruction? Sure. But it's not wicked when He does it.

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 06:54 PM
Just curious: how fluent in Hebrew are you?Just as much as you, probably. Why do you ask? Are you going to claim that God does wicked things? The whole problem with this issue is that no one is defining anything and acting like there is only one definition for the Hebrew word in question and that gives the impression that people are trying to say that God does wicked things. But He doesn't. Do you see my point? We have to clarify exactly what we're claiming here instead of just making a blanket statement that God does evil.

LookingUp
Jan 10th 2012, 06:56 PM
Just as much as you, probably. Why do you ask? Are you going to claim that God does wicked things? The whole problem with this issue is that no one is defining anything and acting like there is only one definition for the Hebrew word in question and that gives the impression that people are trying to say that God does wicked things. But He doesn't. Do you see my point? We have to clarify exactly what we're claiming here instead of just making a blanket statement that God does evil.Yes, exactly! :-)

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 06:56 PM
It all depends on which definition of the word you're using. If someone is going to try to say that God does wickedness than I have a serious issue with that because I know that He does not do wickedness. He is good, not wicked. Does He cause calamity and destruction? Sure. But it's not wicked when He does it.

i am only speaking of evil, if you notice wickedness in scripture it never speaks of God doing such.

i dont care what english version is i care about what Gods version is when he spoke it.

you can say they are interchangable and how we use them today and all taht, but in scripture they are not interchangable because God is not spoken of as having done wickedness.

I am only speaking of evil not wickedness.

Fenris
Jan 10th 2012, 06:57 PM
The whole problem with this issue is that no one is defining anything and acting like there is only one definition for the Hebrew word in question and that gives the impression that people are trying to say that God does wicked things. But He doesn't.
Why are you allowing your theology to determine the meaning of a word?

It means whatever it means. Adapt your theology to the text, not the text to your theology.

LookingUp
Jan 10th 2012, 06:58 PM
Why are you allowing your theology to determine the meaning of a word?

It means whatever it means. Adapt your theology to the text, not the text to your theology.It means whatever it means? Seriously? Meaning is found within the context. Words have many meanings outside of context. Sigh...

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 06:59 PM
A question for you guys.... can there be "natural evil" that is different from "moral evil"?It depends on what you mean by that so can you clarify what you mean? Since the OT scripture being referenced was written in Hebrew the question we should be asking is can the Hebrew word ra` mean more than one thing? And I believe it certainly can. According to Strong's Hebrew Lexicon the word can mean bad or wicked but also can mean distress, calamity, adversity, or injury. So, which of those definitions do you think applies when it comes to the verses that speak about God doing ra`?

Fenris
Jan 10th 2012, 07:01 PM
It means whatever it means? Seriously?
The word "evil" means "evil". Not "disaster". not "calamity".

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 07:01 PM
Why are you allowing your theology to determine the meaning of a word? I'm not. Thanks for playing.


It means whatever it means. Adapt your theology to the text, not the text to your theology.I'm taking the text in the proper context. If you want to believe that a holy God does wickedness then so be it but I know that He does not. He creates calamity and adversity for His purposes but that doesn't mean it's wicked when He does it.

keck553
Jan 10th 2012, 07:02 PM
The word "evil" means "evil". Not "disaster". not "calamity".

This is a true statement.

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 07:07 PM
I will be bowing out of this thread for awhile it has wandered far and is in run around mode i think. i appreciate all your input it was helpful. it seems to turn into taking battle lines and trying to defend a point, i am not interested in such things. i am not worried about defending what i know i am worried about learning what i dont.

markedward
Jan 10th 2012, 07:08 PM
Just as much as you, probably. Why do you ask?Well, between someone who isn't fluent and someone who is, I would rather trust the person who can actually speak it, and not the person who uses a concordance and then thinks they have the credibility to contradict the person who is fluent.

My point is: shape your theology around accurate translation... not forcibly translate to fit your already-existing theology. I find it telling that you haven't used any Scripture to validate your position... only the use of contradicting the people who actually knows Hebrew about what a Hebrew word means (and I'm not referring to solely Fenris).

I humbly suggest that you read back through your own posts, and see that perhaps you need some humility, considering in the way you're talking down to the people who disagree with you.

LookingUp
Jan 10th 2012, 07:09 PM
The word "evil" means "evil". Not "disaster". not "calamity".OK. And "evil" can mean wicked act or just act.

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 07:09 PM
The word "evil" means "evil". Not "disaster". not "calamity".But the Hebrew word ra` can mean evil or it can mean disaster, calamity, adversity or distress. In the following verse it would be hard to try to claim that it should mean "evil" or "wicked" rather than trouble or distress:

Jeremiah 2:27 Saying to a stock, Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth: for they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us.

Are you going to say that this verse should say "in the time of their evil they will say, Arise, and save us?

Psalm 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts. 5His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them. 6He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in adversity.

Should Psalm 10:6 say "He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in evil"?

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 07:13 PM
Well, between someone who isn't fluent and someone who is, I would rather trust the person who can actually speak it, and not the person who uses a concordance and then thinks they have the credibility to contradict the person who is fluent.You'd rather trust the non-Christian than the Christian. I see.


My point is: shape your theology around accurate translation... not forcibly translate to fit your already-existing theology.I am.


I find it telling that you haven't used any Scripture to validate your position... only the use of contradicting the people who actually knows Hebrew about what a Hebrew word means (and I'm not referring to solely Fenris).I just did in post #74. Maybe you should be more patient?


I humbly suggest that you read back through your own posts, and see that perhaps you need some humility, considering in the way you're talking down to the people who disagree with you.You are reading me wrong. I am confident about my view. You can be confident and humble at the same time. I'm not talking down to anyone I'm stating what I believe. I'm sorry if you don't like it that I have a strong opinion on this and am confident about my opinion but I don't believe I need to apologize for that. God's character is being brought into question here and I'm passionate about that. I know that God does not do wickedness and I will defend that passionately with no apologies.

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 07:15 PM
i am only speaking of evil, if you notice wickedness in scripture it never speaks of God doing such.

i dont care what english version is i care about what Gods version is when he spoke it.

you can say they are interchangable and how we use them today and all taht, but in scripture they are not interchangable because God is not spoken of as having done wickedness.

I am only speaking of evil not wickedness.But evil is wickedness if we're going to talk purely of the English word "evil". What other definition does the English word "evil" have except for being related to wickedness and immorality?

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 07:21 PM
No, there are different words for that. Sure, there are different words that also mean that but so does the word in question. Yes, the word usually means evil/wicked but not always as I showed in post #74. I'm sure you're aware that many words have more than one definition and this is one of those words.

Fenris
Jan 10th 2012, 07:30 PM
But the Hebrew word ra` can mean evil or it can mean disaster, calamity, adversity or distress. In the following verse it would be hard to try to claim that it should mean "evil" or "wicked" rather than trouble or distress:

It can be read as "evil" in both those instances. And that's what the word means.

Brother Mark
Jan 10th 2012, 07:31 PM
Why are you allowing your theology to determine the meaning of a word?

It means whatever it means. Adapt your theology to the text, not the text to your theology.

Ah yes. Something that can be very difficult to do, but oh so rewarding!

markedward
Jan 10th 2012, 07:43 PM
You'd rather trust the non-Christian than the Christian. I see.This isn't what I said. I'm not talking about just Fenris. Consider the teams of Christian translators who work on Bible translations and agree over the course of several years of working that the word 'evil' is the most accurate translation of the word.


I just did in post #74. Maybe you should be more patient?(After... something was said about your lack of Scriptural appeal...?) I patiently waited 70+ posts. You repeated the same thing a half-dozen times up to that point. If it is a lack of patience when I see someone say the same thing multiple times without offering anything new to ground their opinion, then I sincerely apologize.


You are reading me wrong. I am confident about my view. You can be confident and humble at the same time. I'm not talking down to anyone I'm stating what I believe. I'm sorry if you don't like it that I have a strong opinion on this and am confident about my opinion but I don't believe I need to apologize for that. God's character is being brought into question here and I'm passionate about that. I know that God does not do wickedness and I will defend that passionately with no apologies.I'm not saying you can't be passionate, and I'm not saying you can't have confidence. I'm suggesting you need humility when you disagree with others. Reading your posts, I don't see just confidence; I see arrogance and condescension. But, I've already said what I think needed to be said. I ask that you please just pause yourself to consider what I've said before your inevitable retort.

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 07:52 PM
It can be read as "evil" in both those instances. And that's what the word means.The English word "evil" means wicked, bad, wrong. Do you think God does wicked/bad/wrong things? Doesn't He define what is evil/wicked? To do evil is to do something against God's will, isn't it? He wouldn't do something against His own will, right? God could kill someone and be completely justified in doing so without it being evil or wrong. But if we do that we would be doing something evil or wrong (unless God told us to do it). It's important to define exactly what we're talking about here to avoid confusion, wouldn't you agree? Otherwise, by saying God does evil it gives the impression that you're saying God does bad or wicked things, which doesn't make any sense.

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 07:58 PM
This isn't what I said. I'm not talking about just Fenris. Consider the teams of Christian translators who work on Bible translations and agree over the course of several years of working that the word 'evil' is the most accurate translation of the word.I think they did a great job overall but in this case not so much. Though some translations do have "calamity" in Isaiah 45:7 rather than "evil". While I believe the original authors were inspired by God and their writings are infallible I can't say the same about all of the English translators. Again, I believe they did a great job overall and most of them tried to be objective and not let biases influence them but the fact is that nothing says they were infallible.


(After... something was said about your lack of Scriptural appeal...?) I patiently waited 70+ posts. You repeated the same thing a half-dozen times up to that point. If it is a lack of patience when I see someone say the same thing multiple times without offering anything new to ground their opinion, then I sincerely apologize.No need to apologize. I don't need to apologize, either. Let's try to not be overly sensitive here. We're adults. We can handle disagreement without being offended, right? I didn't think scriptural support was necessary but I did end up giving some once I realized it was necessary, after all.


I'm not saying you can't be passionate, and I'm not saying you can't have confidence. I'm suggesting you need humility when you disagree with others. Reading your posts, I don't see just confidence; I see arrogance and condescension.I'm sorry you see it that way because that's not my intention and I know that's not what is in my heart. I apologize for offending you and maybe I need to word things differently and I'll consider that, but I can assure you that was not my intention.

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 08:04 PM
It can be read as "evil" in both those instances.Not without making those verses read very awkwardly. This means you are saying that Psalm 10:6 should read something like this: "He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in evil." with "evil" replacing "adversity". What would that even mean? I shall never be in evil? That's an awkward statement, to say the least.

keyzer soze
Jan 10th 2012, 08:14 PM
i believe that God always has a good motive but can certainly use what looks like evil, and even feels like evil, for the greater good. God told Abraham to sacrifice his son.... we have to trust that God's intent in the end is never evil otherwise Abraham should NOT have been deemed righteous to follow through with murder.

i believe the entire story of Job in a whole shows this. during trials we are called on to trust God in all things.
- And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

we know that we can not define evil as wrong doing if we claim God creates it because that is the very point of Job's story.
- In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

rejoice44
Jan 10th 2012, 08:39 PM
Nice. And Job did repent. "Therefore now I retract, and I repent in dust and ashes." I, personally, don't think Job intentionally sinned. He was speaking out of ignorance, God enlightened him, and he repented of his foolish words.

I agree that Job sinned in ignorance otherwise God would not have said Job was perfect and upright, but Job was still a sinner that needed salvation. Job repented and was taken from darkness into light, all things became new, including his flesh, that is called being born again.

rejoice44
Jan 10th 2012, 08:45 PM
i could not disagree more,

elihu spoke in error - so dotn quote a person who spoke in error as proof of Gods will

did you see who spoke for 2 chapters right when God came to Job and asked Job "who is this that darkens" he was speaking of elihu that was the person who just got done speaking.

Job_42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

Job spoke right and the others spoke wrong, God said so. elihu spoke in error not truth.

God neither spoke to or about Elihu, read the context of the chapter. God tells Job he is without knowledge throughout that chapter.

Job condemned God for being unjust because Job said God did not care about the trial of the innocent. Was Job right?

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 08:48 PM
i believe that God always has a good motive but can certainly use what looks like evil, and even feels like evil, for the greater good. God told Abraham to sacrifice his son.... we have to trust that God's intent in the end is never evil otherwise Abraham should NOT have been deemed righteous to follow through with murder.

i believe the entire story of Job in a whole shows this. during trials we are called on to trust God in all things.
- And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

we know that we can not define evil as wrong doing if we claim God creates it because that is the very point of Job's story.
- In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.Right. If he had charged God with wrongdoing then it would have been a sin since God does no wrong/evil.

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 08:48 PM
I agree that Job sinned in ignorance otherwise God would not have said Job was perfect and upright, but Job was still a sinner that needed salvation. Job repented and was taken from darkness into light, all things became new, including his flesh, that is called being born again.

where is the scripture saying he sinned and where is the scripture saying he repented or the scripture saying he needed to repent or God saying he spoke anything wrong.

where does it say he repented and was taken from darkness to light ? where does it say he was born again ?

where does it say he sinned in ignorance ?

sinning in ignorance is sinning - that means non perfect

please post scripture.

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 08:59 PM
God neither spoke to or about Elihu, read the context of the chapter. God tells Job he is without knowledge throughout that chapter.

Job condemned God for being unjust because Job said God did not care about the trial of the innocent. Was Job right?

Job_42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.


Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

above he is speaking to jobs friends, so you could not be more wrong that God did not speak about him. it says his wrath was kindled against him.

Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.
Job 32:2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.
Job 32:3 Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.
Job 32:4 Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they were elder than he.
Job 32:5 When Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of these three men, then his wrath was kindled.

scripture states clearly Job spoke correctly and his friends all four of them spoke in error. these are the four above who spoke incorrectly.

yet you want to say Job spoke wrong and agree with elihu - you are free to do so

i will agree with the one who God said spoke correctly

LookingUp
Jan 10th 2012, 09:01 PM
Scripture defines for us what evil means.

wicked men = evil men:

Do not enter the path of the wicked and do not proceed the way of evil men (Proverbs 4:14).

the evil = the wicked:

The evil will bow down before the good, and the wicked at the gates of the righteous (Proverbs 14:19).

evil things come out of the wicked:

The heart of the righteous ponders how to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things (Proverbs 15:18)

the wicked desires evil:

The soul of the wicked desires evil (Proverbs 21:10)

the evil man = the wicked man:

For there will be no future for the evil man; the lamp of the wicked will be put out (Proverbs 24:20)

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 09:08 PM
Scripture defines for us what evil means.

wicked men = evil men:

Do not enter the path of the wicked and do not proceed the way of evil men (Proverbs 4:14).

the evil = the wicked:

The evil will bow down before the good, and the wicked at the gates of the righteous (Proverbs 14:19).

evil things come out of the wicked:

The heart of the righteous ponders how to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things (Proverbs 15:18)

the wicked desires evil:

The soul of the wicked desires evil (Proverbs 21:10)

For there will be no future for the evil man; the lamp of the wicked will be put out (Proverbs 24:20)

all applied to men and not God i agree

nothing denotes God doing a wicked act, or saying he will do a wicked thing

and notice the scriptures do not read

the soul of the evil desires evil
the mouth of the evil pours out evil things
and so on

they are 2 different words for a reason

now try to find a scripture of God doing wickedness

LookingUp
Jan 10th 2012, 09:09 PM
where is the scripture saying he sinned and where is the scripture saying he repented...post #33... it seems you miss a lot of posts.

fewarechosen
Jan 10th 2012, 09:11 PM
post #33... it seems you miss a lot of posts.

no i addressed that.

you quoted the person who God said was wrong. Sorry but i cant agree with him.

by the way it was post 36 that i responded.

it may not be me who missed the post since i quoted you in it.

rejoice44
Jan 10th 2012, 09:15 PM
[QUOTE=fewarechosen;2791022]where is the scripture saying he sinned

Job said, "Why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity?--." (Job 7:21)


and where is the scripture saying he repented or the scripture saying he needed to repent or God saying he spoke anything wrong.

Job said, "Behold I am vile, what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth." (Job 40:4)

Job said, "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:6)

God said, "Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. (Job 40:2)

God said, "Will you disannul my judgment? Will you condemn me that you may be righteous." (Job 40:8)


where does it say he repented and was taken from darkness to light ?

Job said, "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:5-6)


where does it say he was born again ?

Elihu said, "Then he is gracious unto him and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth. He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness. He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not: He will deliver his soull from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light." (Job 33:24-28) This is what happened to Job.


where does it say he sinned in ignorance ?

Job said it over and over again when he said he was innocent and God was unjust.


sinning in ignorance is sinning - that means non perfect

True sinning in ignorance is sinning, but if you read the law you will find that God made a distinction.

John146
Jan 10th 2012, 09:42 PM
Scripture defines for us what evil means.

wicked men = evil men:

Do not enter the path of the wicked and do not proceed the way of evil men (Proverbs 4:14).

the evil = the wicked:

The evil will bow down before the good, and the wicked at the gates of the righteous (Proverbs 14:19).

evil things come out of the wicked:

The heart of the righteous ponders how to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things (Proverbs 15:18)

the wicked desires evil:

The soul of the wicked desires evil (Proverbs 21:10)

the evil man = the wicked man:

For there will be no future for the evil man; the lamp of the wicked will be put out (Proverbs 24:20)Well said. I can't imagine how anyone can say that God has done evil in the same sense that those verses are speaking about. God does evil/wicked things? No, God is good and holy and not evil/wicked at all. A holy God does not do evil/wicked things.

rejoice44
Jan 10th 2012, 09:58 PM
[QUOTE=fewarechosen;2791032]Job_42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

What Job said that was right was that he was vile and abhorred himself and repented in dust ashes. The three friends, and this does not include Elihu, never repented and acknowledged their sin, this is what they did not say, and what Job did say.



Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

above he is speaking to jobs friends, so you could not be more wrong that God did not speak about him. it says his wrath was kindled against him.

Elihu represented Job's mediator, you need to dig into the book of Job deeper.

Job requested to God a mediator, and set qualifications for that mediator.

One qualification was that he be a man such as Job. "For he is not a man, as I am that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment." (Job 9:32) God's answer was to send Elihu who said, "Behold I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay." (Job 33:6)

Another qualification that Job announced to God two times has two parts, "(Let him take his rod away from me,) (and let not his fear terrify me" Job 9:34

The second time that Job announced the request, "Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid." (Job 13:21) Two parts to the request twice requested, and then we have God's answer to Job,

"Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon you." (Job 33:7)

Also note Job's comment after making the request, "Then would I speak, and not fear him: but it is not so with me." (Job 9:35) And again, Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me." (Job 13:22)

Now listen to Elihu requesting Job speak, "If you can answer me, set your words in order before me, stand up." (Job 33:5) Job never answers Elihu, and then God demands that Job answers. "Gird up thy loins like a man: for I will demand of you, and answer thou me." (Job 38:3)


scripture states clearly Job spoke correctly and his friends all four of them spoke in error. these are the four above who spoke incorrectly.

Job didn't have four friends, Job had three friends and a judge.

LookingUp
Jan 11th 2012, 01:13 AM
no i addressed that.

you quoted the person who God said was wrong. Sorry but i cant agree with him.

by the way it was post 36 that i responded.

it may not be me who missed the post since i quoted you in it.You didn't address me personally. Actually, you didn't quote me in that reply to rejoice44 either. But never mind, these threads do get busy and I miss posts all the time. OK, in response to your reply to rejoice44 in post #36... even IF you believe that it is about Elihu when its written, "Who is that that hides counsel without knowledge" rather than Job, Job REPENTS in verse 6. Why did Job repent? What did Job repent of?

keyzer soze
Jan 11th 2012, 03:27 AM
found these links on the matter
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/does_god_repent.html

otis lilly
Jan 11th 2012, 03:28 AM
I am a simpleton, complex things confuse me, bouncing around scripture, taking only peices we want.
God made everything. GOD made creation. if there is evil, he made it period.
#1 God makes no mistakes,
#2 God made satan himself. he knew what he was making when he did it.
#3 we cant believe in one without the other
#4 satan is evil, and God knew everything he was to do before he created him.
#5 god created pain, suffering, confusion, death. God created Hell.
#6 I would not be a good christian if I thought someone else COULD create anything from nothing.
#7 Since God made Evil, and knew what he would do, and could stop it, he made evil happen, aka God does evil
#8 we might not understand why, but that is on us.


I respect all opinions, these are just mine, and I may be wrong. but 97 posts of it. lets get to the meat. this is as simple as I know to make it. please tell me what number you dont agree with.

Protective Angel
Jan 11th 2012, 04:29 AM
yea that does make sense.
Folly (evil) is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it (evil) far from him. Proverbs 22:15 = good

So it's bible OK to whip your kids?:pp

Eyelog
Jan 11th 2012, 04:56 AM
I am a simpleton, complex things confuse me, bouncing around scripture, taking only peices we want.
God made everything. GOD made creation. if there is evil, he made it period.
#1 God makes no mistakes,
#2 God made satan himself. he knew what he was making when he did it.
#3 we cant believe in one without the other
#4 satan is evil, and God knew everything he was to do before he created him.
#5 god created pain, suffering, confusion, death. God created Hell.
#6 I would not be a good christian if I thought someone else COULD create anything from nothing.
#7 Since God made Evil, and knew what he would do, and could stop it, he made evil happen, aka God does evil
#8 we might not understand why, but that is on us.


I respect all opinions, these are just mine, and I may be wrong. but 97 posts of it. lets get to the meat. this is as simple as I know to make it. please tell me what number you dont agree with.

I like your honesty. Here's the logic of it all:

1. God knows all.
2. God is all powerful.
3. God allowed the serpent to deceive Eve about the fruit of the tree He placed in the Garden and gave a command regarding.
4. God both knew the serpent would deceive Eve and had the power to stop the serpent.
5. God both knew the deception of Eve would lead to the fall of mankind and subject mankind to death, corruption, suffering, separation from God, and Hell.
6. God not only allowed all that, but He orchestrated all that, including subjecting the Creation itself to frustration, as Romans 8:20-21 has it. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

So, yes, God created pain, suffering, confusion, death and Hell, and also set us up to fall on purpose.

So far as why, we can understand why if we will open our eyes, read the Word, and stop listening to the bleeding hearts and sentimentalists, including those who think when Jesus came to earth as a man He retained His deific powers. I don't know any men with deific powers, but I do know men who have exercised one or more gifts of the Spirit and are Spirit filled and walk in the Spirit, as Jesus did.

The answer is too simple: Surely you can guess at it, and maybe even cite the Scripture.

But if we keep denying we can become like Him, we will continue to miss the point, and continue to be in denial, and continue to need excuses for why there is evil if God is so good, and we will keep failing to become like Him. Won't we.

... One thing is for sure, if God wanted a world without sin, evil, cruelty, pain, loss, despair and a broad road to hell, He coulda given us one. That means something is of greater value to God than having us avoid having to experience 'evil'. Gee, what could that be?

+++++++++++++++++++++
Edited point:

Of course, it is highly ironic He commands A&E not to eat of the very tree He wanted them to eat of, that they would gain knowledge of what He really wanted them to have knowledge and training in. But, He is the author and perfecter or reverse psychology. Everyone knows that.

Eyelog
Jan 11th 2012, 05:06 AM
I agree that Job sinned in ignorance otherwise God would not have said Job was perfect and upright, but Job was still a sinner that needed salvation. Job repented and was taken from darkness into light, all things became new, including his flesh, that is called being born again.

Do you think Job was guilty of intentional sin at all at any point in the Job narrative?

rejoice44
Jan 11th 2012, 01:14 PM
Do you think Job was guilty of intentional sin at all at any point in the Job narrative?

No more than I would think Fenris would be guilty of intentional sin.

Can you say God is unjust and still not be guilty of intentional sin? Perhaps so, I don't know.

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 01:29 PM
The English word "evil" means wicked, bad, wrong. Do you think God does wicked/bad/wrong things?
God does things that appear to be evil/wicked/bad, yes.

rejoice44
Jan 11th 2012, 01:37 PM
God does things that appear to be evil/wicked/bad, yes.

Are any of these things unjust?

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 01:46 PM
Are any of these things unjust?
To our puny minds they may seem unjust, yes.

This is the challenge of the believer.

otis lilly
Jan 11th 2012, 01:50 PM
Fenris, you tiptoe, Things do not apear, they are yes or they are no. there is no grey in it. what is your opinion of this post



I am a simpleton, complex things confuse me, bouncing around scripture, taking only peices we want.
God made everything. GOD made creation. if there is evil, he made it period.
#1 God makes no mistakes,
#2 God made satan himself. he knew what he was making when he did it.
#3 we cant believe in one without the other
#4 satan is evil, and God knew everything he was to do before he created him.
#5 god created pain, suffering, confusion, death. God created Hell.
#6 I would not be a good christian if I thought someone else COULD create anything from nothing.
#7 Since God made Evil, and knew what he would do, and could stop it, he made evil happen, aka God does evil
#8 we might not understand why, but that is on us.


I respect all opinions, these are just mine, and I may be wrong. but 97 posts of it. lets get to the meat. this is as simple as I know to make it. please tell me what number you dont agree with.

keyzer soze
Jan 11th 2012, 02:02 PM
I am a simpleton, complex things confuse me, bouncing around scripture, taking only peices we want.
God made everything. GOD made creation. if there is evil, he made it period.
#1 God makes no mistakes,
#2 God made satan himself. he knew what he was making when he did it.
#3 we cant believe in one without the other
#4 satan is evil, and God knew everything he was to do before he created him.
#5 god created pain, suffering, confusion, death. God created Hell.
#6 I would not be a good christian if I thought someone else COULD create anything from nothing.
#7 Since God made Evil, and knew what he would do, and could stop it, he made evil happen, aka God does evil
#8 we might not understand why, but that is on us.


I respect all opinions, these are just mine, and I may be wrong. but 97 posts of it. lets get to the meat. this is as simple as I know to make it. please tell me what number you dont agree with.

i am down with all but 7... i feel uncomfortable saying yes to that without qualifying it. while God might look to do evil from our perspective i don't believe he does from his. his ways are perfect and righteous. so the ends of his means are perfect and righteous, never evil. hell itself will be used to glorify God's perfect justice and hell has to be as close to evil as you can get and God will sentence souls there for eternity.

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 02:03 PM
#1 God makes no mistakes,Correct


#2 God made satan himself. he knew what he was making when he did it.
#3 we cant believe in one without the other
#4 satan is evil, and God knew everything he was to do before he created him.Hmm. Under Jewish theology, Satan is not an independent being with free will and Satan is not responsible for evil i the world.


#5 god created pain, suffering, confusion, death. Yes.


#6 I would not be a good christian if I thought someone else COULD create anything from nothing.I am not a Christian and won't comment on what makes on e "good Christian" vs a "bad Christian".


#7 Since God made Evil, and knew what he would do, and could stop it, he made evil happen, aka God does evil
#8 we might not understand why, but that is on us.Yes.

fewarechosen
Jan 11th 2012, 02:43 PM
I am a simpleton, complex things confuse me, bouncing around scripture, taking only peices we want.
God made everything. GOD made creation. if there is evil, he made it period.
#1 God makes no mistakes,
#2 God made satan himself. he knew what he was making when he did it.
#3 we cant believe in one without the other
#4 satan is evil, and God knew everything he was to do before he created him.
#5 god created pain, suffering, confusion, death. God created Hell.
#6 I would not be a good christian if I thought someone else COULD create anything from nothing.
#7 Since God made Evil, and knew what he would do, and could stop it, he made evil happen, aka God does evil
#8 we might not understand why, but that is on us.


I respect all opinions, these are just mine, and I may be wrong. but 97 posts of it. lets get to the meat. this is as simple as I know to make it. please tell me what number you dont agree with.

i agree with all points.

Thanks for your post, i appreciate it, didnt know if i was the only one who saw it that way.

rejoice44
Jan 11th 2012, 02:46 PM
To our puny minds they may seem unjust, yes.

This is the challenge of the believer.

In your mind your God is unjust?

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 02:51 PM
In your mind your God is unjust?

How many times do I have to say the same thing? really.

Should I do it in caps and bold, as though I'm shouting?

Fine.

TO OUR LIMITED MORTAL MINDS, GOD DOES THINGS THAT MAY SEEM UNJUST. THE CHALLENGE OF THE BELIEVER IS TO HAVE FAITH THAT EVERYTHING GOD DOES IS JUST.

that better?

rejoice44
Jan 11th 2012, 02:59 PM
How many times do I have to say the same thing? really.

Should I do it in caps and bold, as though I'm shouting?

Fine.

TO OUR LIMITED MORTAL MINDS, GOD DOES THINGS THAT MAY SEEM UNJUST. THE CHALLENGE OF THE BELIEVER IS TO HAVE FAITH THAT EVERYTHING GOD DOES IS JUST.

that better?

You were not clear the last time. It could have been taken either way.

So we have a sort of oxymoron, God is evil-God is just, but justice is not evil-justice is good.

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 03:02 PM
So we have a sort of oxymoron
You don't really understand what I am saying, do you.

rejoice44
Jan 11th 2012, 03:05 PM
You don't really understand what I am saying, do you.

Well I thought I did.

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 03:07 PM
Well I thought I did.if you think it's an oxymoron then you aren't getting it.

fewarechosen
Jan 11th 2012, 03:12 PM
You were not clear the last time. It could have been taken either way.

So we have a sort of oxymoron, God is evil-God is just, but justice is not evil-justice is good.

no one said God is evil, you keep trying to attach that to him to make your point.

there is a difference between creating and being

if i make soup am i soup ?

rejoice44
Jan 11th 2012, 03:19 PM
if you think it's an oxymoron then you aren't getting it.

In post 104 you were asked, "Do you think God does wicked/bad/wrong things?"


Your answer was ambiguous as you finished with a "---,yes."

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 03:20 PM
In post 104 you were asked, "Do you think God does wicked/bad/wrong things?"


Your answer was ambiguous as you finished with a "---,yes."
Yes, God does things that SEEM evil.

Brother Mark
Jan 11th 2012, 03:23 PM
Food for thought...

God raised up the Chaldeans. He brought them down on Israel. He did it to chastise Israel. Even Israel had a very hard time with this thing we are discussing in this thread. Look at what God told them.

Hab 1:5 5 " Look among the nations! Observe! Be astonished! Wonder! Because I am doing something in your days — You would not believe if you were told. NASU God said he was about to do something that Israel won't believe even though God himself is telling them. (The same thing holds true today for many of us. Sometimes, God can be hard for us to believe!)

What was it God was about to do?

Hab 1:6-10 6 "For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans, That fierce and impetuous people Who march throughout the earth To seize dwelling places which are not theirs. 7 "They are dreaded and feared; Their justice and authority originate with themselves. 8 "Their horses are swifter than leopards And keener than wolves in the evening. Their horsemen come galloping, Their horsemen come from afar; They fly like an eagle swooping down to devour. 9 "All of them come for violence. Their horde of faces moves forward. They collect captives like sand. 10 "They mock at kings And rulers are a laughing matter to them. They laugh at every fortress And heap up rubble to capture it. NASU

Woa! They were going to take Israel into slavery. Is this a good thing? What they were going to do was a harsh, harsh thing to endure. But an even bigger question might be, why would God do such a thing? Habakkuk asked the same thing.

Hab 1:13 13 Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You can not look on wickedness with favor. Why do You look with favor On those who deal treacherously? Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up Those more righteous than they? NASU

But God also answered Habakkuk and he understood.

Hab 1:12 12 Are You not from everlasting, O Lord, my God, my Holy One? We will not die. You, O Lord, have appointed them to judge; And You, O Rock, have established them to correct. NASU

God appointed the Chaldeans to judge Israel. They had gone 490 years or so without keeping the Sabbath years and this was their chastisement. But in reality, God wanted something else from them! Something more important. As human parents, we often punish our children only over their behavior as seems good to us. But God, he's different in this. In the end, was keeping the Sabbath years important? Sure! However, what he really wanted was for Israel to have a heart for him and to seek him. He prophesied this in Jeremiah concerning the heart of Israel and what would happen after they were taken into captivity. (BTW, Moses also prophesied it as well.)

Jer 24:4-7 4 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 5 "Thus says the Lord God of Israel, 'Like these good figs, so I will regard as good the captives of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans. 6 'For I will set My eyes on them for good, and I will bring them again to this land; and I will build them up and not overthrow them, and I will plant them and not pluck them up. 7 'I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart. NASU

God, in his grace, used this experience to give Israel a heart to know God and to seek him. Now, here's question, when God raised up the Chaldeans, was that evil? Was it evil when thy killed babies? Was it evil when they took slaves? Was it evil when they robbed the temple? Yet, God raised them up! God was the one who initiated it! And what does God do with the Chaldeans after they do their evil deed?

Hab 1:11 11 "Then they will sweep through like the wind and pass on. But they will be held guilty, They whose strength is their god."
NASU

He holds them guilty for what they did. He breaks the rod he used. We no longer talk about Chaldeans. But we still talk about Israel. God protected his people and destroyed the people he raised up as a rod of correction.

God can do things that we cannot. Those things appear (or may appear) to be evil to us. But when God does them, they are done for righteous reasons. He raised up an evil people to judge and correct his righteous people. (A lot of people from Israel died when He raised up the Chaldeans to correct Israel.) Then he judged and broke the evil people He raised up and ultimately destroyed them. God is just. He knows what he is doing. We can argue semantics forever, but some things God does are flat out challenging to us as believers.

Grace to you all.

Mark

Rullion Green
Jan 11th 2012, 03:29 PM
Afew days ago i was reading about all the OT instances when God is responsible for things that are sort of uncomfortable i.e Sending evil spirit to Saul, sending lying Spirits to entice Ahab, provoking King David to take a census. Anyway James 1:13 came to mind

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

I looked up Calvin's commentaries and you may be surprised by Calvin's response depending on how well you think you know Calvin. anyway ....hope it's useful to somebody.

-------------

Let no man, when he is tempted. Here, no doubt, he speaks of another kind of temptation. It is abundantly evident that the external temptations, hitherto mentioned, are sent to us by God. In this way God tempted Abraham, (Genesis 22:1 (http://niv.scripturetext.com/genesis/22-1.htm),) and daily tempts us, that is, he tries us as to what are we by laying before us an occasion by which our hearts are made known. But to draw out what is hid in our hearts is a far different thing from inwardly alluring our hearts by wicked lusts.He then treats here of inward temptations which are nothing else than the inordinate desires which entice to sin. He justly denies that God is the author of these, because they flow from the corruption of our nature.


This warning is very necessary, for nothing is more common among men than to transfer to another the blame of the evils they commit; and they then especially seem to free themselves, when they ascribe it to God himself. This kind of evasion we constantly imitate, delivered down to us as it is from the first man. For this reason James calls us to confess our own guilt, and not to implicate God, as though he compelled us to sin.


But the whole doctrine of scripture seems to be inconsistent with this passage; for it teaches us that men are blinded by God, are given up to a reprobate mind, and delivered over to filthy and shameful lusts. To this I answer, that probably James was induced to deny that we are tempted by God by this reason, because the ungodly, in order to form an excuse, armed themselves with testimonies of Scripture. But there are two things to be noticed here: when Scripture ascribes blindness or hardness of heart to God, it does not assign to him the beginning of this blindness, nor does it make him the author of sin, so as to ascribe to him the blame: and on these two things only does James dwell.


Scripture asserts that the reprobate are delivered up to depraved lusts; but is it because the Lord depraves or corrupts their hearts? By no means; for their hearts are subjected to depraved lusts, because they are already corrupt and vicious.

But since God blinds or hardens, is he not the author or minister of evil? Nay, but in this manner he punishes sins, and renders a just reward to the ungodly, who have refused to be ruled by his Spirit. (Romans 1:26 (http://bible.cc/romans/1-26.htm).) It hence follows that the origin of sin is not in God, and no blame can be imputed to him as though he took pleasure in evils. (Genesis 6:6 (http://bible.cc/genesis/6-6.htm).)


The meaning is, that man in vain evades, who attempts to cast the blame of his vices on God, because every evil proceeds from no other fountain than from the wicked lust of man. And the fact really is, that we are not otherwise led astray, except that every one has his own inclination as his leader and impeller. But that God tempts no one, he proves by this, because he is not tempted with evils [105] For it is the devil who allures us to sin, and for this reason, because he wholly burns with the mad lust of sinning. But God does not desire what is evil: he is not, therefore, the author of doing evil in us.

rejoice44
Jan 11th 2012, 03:33 PM
Yes, God does things that SEEM evil.

The poster never asked what does it seem like, his question was more to the point; "what do you think?"

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 03:33 PM
Food for thought...

How about Psalm 44?


11. You make us retreat from the adversary, and our enemies plunder for themselves;
12. You deliver us as sheep to be eaten, and You scatter us among the nations.
13. You sell Your people without gain, and You did not increase their price;
14. You make us a reproach to our neighbors, a scorn and a derision to those around us;
15. You make us a byword among the nations, a [cause for] shaking the head among the kingdoms.
16. All day long, my disgrace is before me, and the shame of my face has covered me.
17. From the voice of the one who taunts and blasphemes, because of an enemy and an avenger.
18. All this has befallen us and we have not forgotten You, neither have we betrayed Your covenant.
Bad things are happening to those who did not forget God, nor betray His covenant. How can this be?

This is the challenge of the believer.

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 03:35 PM
The poster never asked what does it seem like, his question was more to the point; "what do you think?"
I told you what I think, but you seem inclined to argue rather than ponder it.

Brother Mark
Jan 11th 2012, 03:42 PM
How about Psalm 44?


Bad things are happening to those who did not forget God, nor betray His covenant. How can this be?

This is the challenge of the believer.

I think part of the answer can be found in Deut. 8.

Deut 8:2-3
2 " You shall remember all the way which the Lord your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not. 3 "He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord.
NASU

Almost every great man of God in the scriptures went through a severe desert experience. Israel was tested in the wilderness. David, after being anointed to be king, lived in caves for years before Saul was removed. Joseph, hearing from God concerning his lot in life to be a ruler, was summarily sold into slavery and thrown into prison. That trial for him lasted 17 years (I think. Or was it 13?). Moses, knowing God had called him to be a deliverer of his nation, killed a man and then ran into the desert. He was there for 40 years being humbled by God in order to fulfill his calling. There are other examples as well, but in my opinion, this is a way of God.

For Christians, Christ himself is an example. If God's own son was allowed to suffer, why do we expect we will not suffer? These are things that happen in the life of men for a reason.

I would also give Psalms 73 as an example, though not as good an example as you gave. There too is another question to ask, is it evil for me to have the power to do good and not do it? Yes! How can the love of God reside in me, and me not help my neighbor? Yet, God himself helps in ways we don't understand. Instead of moving someone out of the desert, ,he gives manna. Instead of instantly making Joseph king, he leaves him in prison. God didn't remind the wine bearer (or was the butler) of Joseph until a few years had passed. Why not? Because he is using those circumstances to work things in our hearts that otherwise would likely not be there.

Just as Deuteronomy 8 answers it, I think too Psalms 105 answers it.

Ps 105:17-19
17 He sent a man before them,
Joseph, who was sold as a slave.
18 They afflicted hisfeet with fetters,
He himself was laid in irons;
19 Until the time that his word came to pass,
The word of the Lord tested him.
NASU

And finally, even Psalms 44 offers an answer though not directly.

Ps 44:26
26 Rise up, be our help,
And redeem us for the sake of Your lovingkindness.
NASU

In the end, the Psalmist still believed God would deliver! That is amazing faith and evidence that he indeed did know God and the heart of God. He didn't appeal to his own righteousness there, but rather, to the loving kindness of the Father.

Grace and peace,

Mark

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 03:51 PM
I think part of the answer can be found in Deut. 8.

So then God makes bad things happen to good people.

How...evil.

fewarechosen
Jan 11th 2012, 03:52 PM
hello nobunaga

a quote below from you followed by my thoughts

"Afew days ago i was reading about all the OT instances when God is responsible for things that are sort of uncomfortable i.e Sending evil spirit to Saul, sending lying Spirits to entice Ahab, provoking King David to take a census. Anyway James 1:13 came to mind

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"

i see those as different one is punishment the other is temptation, in the garden serpent tempted, in desert satan tempted Christ. God created satan and let him get all up in Christs face, but it was not God that tempted Christ.

i dont see God sending a evil spirit into you as a temptation nor do i see it a temptation if he hardens your heart.

if scripture says let no man say he is tempted by God - i say no man is tempted by God

i have never read calvin but in what he says above the first thing i note is he tries to explain away temptation, God never speaks of another kind of temptation, seems like calvin is tryin to rationalize his way out with his mind.

"he speaks of another kind of temptation. It is abundantly evident that the external temptations, hitherto mentioned, are sent to us by God. In this way God tempted Abraham"

i couldnt disagree more with his statement above - he says "in this way God tempted abraham" - huge red flag goes up for me he just said what scripture said that no man should say, i try to always defer to scripture. abundantly evident is the fact that an apostle said let no man say God tempted him yet he goes and says it. I dont think thats wise.

and i appreciate your thoughts i am not assuming you are saying these are correct or anything or trying to put words in your mouth i know you just offered them as thoughts, which i do appreciate, i just never read any calvin so it seems the first thing i read from him sounded off to me so i commented.

Brother Mark
Jan 11th 2012, 03:54 PM
So then God makes bad things happen to good people.

How...evil.

Well, we've been singing a similar song for most of the thread. ;) Could we also agree that His ways are not our ways and he is just, kind, and loving in all he is and does? For even in the Psalm you quoted, the son's of Korah still appealed to the lovingkindness of God in the midst of their trial.

Eyelog
Jan 11th 2012, 03:55 PM
Food for thought...

God raised up the Chaldeans. ...
God appointed the Chaldeans to judge Israel. They had gone 490 years or so without keeping the Sabbath years and this was their chastisement. But in reality, God wanted something else from them! Something more important. ... However, what he really wanted was for Israel to have a heart for him and to seek him. ...

God, in his grace, used this experience to give Israel a heart to know God and to seek him. Now, here's question, when God raised up the Chaldeans, was that evil? Was it evil when thy killed babies? Was it evil when they took slaves? Was it evil when they robbed the temple? Yet, God raised them up! God was the one who initiated it! And what does God do with the Chaldeans after they do their evil deed?

Hab 1:11 11 "Then they will sweep through like the wind and pass on. But they will be held guilty, They whose strength is their god."
NASU

He holds them guilty for what they did. He breaks the rod he used. We no longer talk about Chaldeans. But we still talk about Israel. God protected his people and destroyed the people he raised up as a rod of correction.

God can do things that we cannot. Those things appear (or may appear) to be evil to us. But when God does them, they are done for righteous reasons. He raised up an evil people to judge and correct his righteous people. (A lot of people from Israel died when He raised up the Chaldeans to correct Israel.) Then he judged and broke the evil people He raised up and ultimately destroyed them. God is just. He knows what he is doing. We can argue semantics forever, but some things God does are flat out challenging to us as believers.

Grace to you all.

Mark

Brilliant analysis. I agree completely. You've got it going on. :)

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 04:03 PM
Could we also agree that His ways are not our ways and he is just, kind, and loving in all he is and does?
Yes. Even though it is sometimes difficult to understand how.

Rullion Green
Jan 11th 2012, 04:04 PM
hello nobunaga

a quote below from you followed by my thoughts

"Afew days ago i was reading about all the OT instances when God is responsible for things that are sort of uncomfortable i.e Sending evil spirit to Saul, sending lying Spirits to entice Ahab, provoking King David to take a census. Anyway James 1:13 came to mind

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"

i see those as different one is punishment the other is temptation, in the garden serpent tempted, in desert satan tempted Christ. God created satan and let him get all up in Christs face, but it was not God that tempted Christ.

i dont see God sending a evil spirit into you as a temptation nor do i see it a temptation if he hardens your heart.

if scripture says let no man say he is tempted by God - i say no man is tempted by God

i have never read calvin but in what he says above the first thing i note is he tries to explain away temptation, God never speaks of another kind of temptation, seems like calvin is tryin to rationalize his way out with his mind.

"he speaks of another kind of temptation. It is abundantly evident that the external temptations, hitherto mentioned, are sent to us by God. In this way God tempted Abraham"

i couldnt disagree more with his statement above - he says "in this way God tempted abraham" - huge red flag goes up for me he just said what scripture said that no man should say, i try to always defer to scripture. abundantly evident is the fact that an apostle said let no man say God tempted him yet he goes and says it. I dont think thats wise.

and i appreciate your thoughts i am not assuming you are saying these are correct or anything or trying to put words in your mouth i know you just offered them as thoughts, which i do appreciate, i just never read any calvin so it seems the first thing i read from him sounded off to me so i commented.


The word tempted can and is used by older writers to refer to a test, so it could be read as Abraham was tested. He covered this earlier and distinguished the two. But i'm not here to defend Calvin take it or leave it my friend.

Eyelog
Jan 11th 2012, 04:06 PM
But God does not desire what is evil: he is not, therefore, the author of doing evil in us.


Greetings, Nobunaga. I like your analysis. I think you are focusing primarily on the so-called problem of evil, in terms of whether God can be good if He created or even allows evil in the world. As I read you, you are saying that those actions of God which have negative consequences are in response to human choices, either in the distant past or in the present.

I think that is true. Even as God orchestrated the fall of mankind, which effectively plunged all of mankind into sin, suffering, loss, degradation, corruption and death, Adam was free to choose. And we remain free to choose. He constantly holds out His offer of grace to those who would repent and seek Him.


22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. Romans 9.

I see all of the evil God orchestrated and continues to orchestrate to be for His greater good: To purify for Himself a people of His very own, zealous to do good. Titus 2:14.

As you and Brother Mark and others point out, those who cannot stomach evil have a choice: Seek God, or endure it meaninglessly.

God bless. :)

Brother Mark
Jan 11th 2012, 04:07 PM
...those who cannot stomach evil have a choice: Seek God, or endure it meaninglessly.

God bless. :)

Very good summary! Very good! Thanks for posting that.

Brother Mark
Jan 11th 2012, 04:11 PM
Yes. Even though it is sometimes difficult to understand how.

Yes it can. However, to a man, the great men of God praised God after they had gone through their trials. They praised him for who he was. The outcome of such testing must be very good for the one who is being tested.

fewarechosen
Jan 11th 2012, 04:15 PM
The word tempted can and is used by older writers to refer to a test, so it could be read as Abraham was tested. He covered this earlier and distinguished the two. But i'm not here to defend Calvin take it or leave it my friend.

the trials that he puts men through I could agree with,i see scripture saying as much, but in those trials i see it is not God tempting us to do evil.

it makes me think of abraham - God says go kill your son as a sacrifice to me, you know as soon as that happened satan must have tried to move into abrahams mind to say "dude thats not cool-how could God want you to kill your son" "thats just evil man" "dont do that" but abraham resisted and did go to offer him. the test would be put forth by God but the temptation by satan.

i appreciate your thoughts they help me see my own, im sort of just thinking outloud, not pushing some agenda or tryin to force people to think like me and i dont get that feeling from you either so thanks.

Rullion Green
Jan 11th 2012, 04:18 PM
Greetings, Nobunaga. I like your analysis. I think you are focusing primarily on the so-called problem of evil, in terms of whether God can be good if He created or even allows evil in the world. As I read you, you are saying that those actions of God which have negative consequences are in response to human choices, either in the distant past or in the present.

I think that is true. Even as God orchestrated the fall of mankind, which effectively plunged all of mankind into sin, suffering, loss, degradation, corruption and death, Adam was free to choose. And we remain free to choose. He constantly holds out His offer of grace to those who would repent and seek Him.



I see all of the evil God orchestrated and continues to orchestrate to be for His greater good: To purify for Himself a people of His very own, zealous to do good. Titus 2:14.

As you and Brother Mark and others point out, those who cannot stomach evil have a choice: Seek God, or endure it meaninglessly.

God bless. :)

Yes i agree, i think this is the deep end of Theology and it can be scary in the deep dark waters but one thing i hope in is Psalm 25:8

Good and upright is the Lord therefore He instructs sinners in His way.

If this wasn't so i'd be dead in the water.

God Bless you, and it's nice to meet you !

Rullion Green
Jan 11th 2012, 04:25 PM
the trials that he puts men through I could agree with,i see scripture saying as much, but in those trials i see it is not God tempting us to do evil.

I agree



it makes me think of abraham - God says go kill your son as a sacrifice to me, you know as soon as that happened satan must have tried to move into abrahams mind to say "dude thats not cool-how could God want you to kill your son" "thats just evil man" "dont do that" but abraham resisted and did go to offer him. the test would be put forth by God but the temptation by satan.

i appreciate your thoughts they help me see my own, im sort of just thinking outloud, not pushing some agenda or tryin to force people to think like me and i dont get that feeling from you either so thanks.

Yeah thats fine my friend, your very respectful and kind and i dont mind if you disagree with me at all. Your thought are helping me also, it's a great topic to get into, i've been fascinated by it for years, and no doubt i'll still be in years to come (God willing).

LookingUp
Jan 11th 2012, 05:50 PM
no one said God is evil, you keep trying to attach that to him to make your point.

there is a difference between creating and being

if i make soup am i soup ?If you commit evil such as rape, you aren't rape but what you did was a wicked thing that came out of your wicked heart. If God commits what in Scripture is called "evil" such as bring disaster on a wicked nation, that doesn't make God evil but what he did was a just things that came out of a perfectly just heart.

LookingUp
Jan 11th 2012, 05:59 PM
Food for thought...

God raised up the Chaldeans. He brought them down on Israel. He did it to chastise Israel. Even Israel had a very hard time with this thing we are discussing in this thread. Look at what God told them.

Hab 1:5 5 " Look among the nations! Observe! Be astonished! Wonder! Because I am doing something in your days — You would not believe if you were told. NASU God said he was about to do something that Israel won't believe even though God himself is telling them. (The same thing holds true today for many of us. Sometimes, God can be hard for us to believe!)

What was it God was about to do?

Hab 1:6-10 6 "For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans, That fierce and impetuous people Who march throughout the earth To seize dwelling places which are not theirs. 7 "They are dreaded and feared; Their justice and authority originate with themselves. 8 "Their horses are swifter than leopards And keener than wolves in the evening. Their horsemen come galloping, Their horsemen come from afar; They fly like an eagle swooping down to devour. 9 "All of them come for violence. Their horde of faces moves forward. They collect captives like sand. 10 "They mock at kings And rulers are a laughing matter to them. They laugh at every fortress And heap up rubble to capture it. NASU

Woa! They were going to take Israel into slavery. Is this a good thing? What they were going to do was a harsh, harsh thing to endure. But an even bigger question might be, why would God do such a thing? Habakkuk asked the same thing.

Hab 1:13 13 Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You can not look on wickedness with favor. Why do You look with favor On those who deal treacherously? Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up Those more righteous than they? NASU

But God also answered Habakkuk and he understood.

Hab 1:12 12 Are You not from everlasting, O Lord, my God, my Holy One? We will not die. You, O Lord, have appointed them to judge; And You, O Rock, have established them to correct. NASU

God appointed the Chaldeans to judge Israel. They had gone 490 years or so without keeping the Sabbath years and this was their chastisement. But in reality, God wanted something else from them! Something more important. As human parents, we often punish our children only over their behavior as seems good to us. But God, he's different in this. In the end, was keeping the Sabbath years important? Sure! However, what he really wanted was for Israel to have a heart for him and to seek him. He prophesied this in Jeremiah concerning the heart of Israel and what would happen after they were taken into captivity. (BTW, Moses also prophesied it as well.)

Jer 24:4-7 4 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 5 "Thus says the Lord God of Israel, 'Like these good figs, so I will regard as good the captives of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans. 6 'For I will set My eyes on them for good, and I will bring them again to this land; and I will build them up and not overthrow them, and I will plant them and not pluck them up. 7 'I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart. NASU

God, in his grace, used this experience to give Israel a heart to know God and to seek him. Now, here's question, when God raised up the Chaldeans, was that evil? Was it evil when thy killed babies? Was it evil when they took slaves? Was it evil when they robbed the temple? Yet, God raised them up! God was the one who initiated it! And what does God do with the Chaldeans after they do their evil deed?

Hab 1:11 11 "Then they will sweep through like the wind and pass on. But they will be held guilty, They whose strength is their god."
NASU

He holds them guilty for what they did. He breaks the rod he used. We no longer talk about Chaldeans. But we still talk about Israel. God protected his people and destroyed the people he raised up as a rod of correction.

God can do things that we cannot. Those things appear (or may appear) to be evil to us. But when God does them, they are done for righteous reasons. He raised up an evil people to judge and correct his righteous people. (A lot of people from Israel died when He raised up the Chaldeans to correct Israel.) Then he judged and broke the evil people He raised up and ultimately destroyed them. God is just. He knows what he is doing. We can argue semantics forever, but some things God does are flat out challenging to us as believers.

Grace to you all.

MarkYou wrote, "God raised up an evil people" and that is correct. God allowed an ALREADY EVIL people to have power over Israel. God didn't MAKE them evil or raise them TO BE evil. God used an evil nation to discipline Israel. There is NOTHING evil about that. And because THEY are the ones who chose to commit the evil, of course, they are held responsible for the EVIL THEY COMMITTED -- killing babies, taking slaves, robbing the temple. God DID NOT INITIATE anything. He took His protective hand off of Israel and allowed the Chaldeans do to Israel what they were already doing -- acting out their evil ways.

Eyelog
Jan 11th 2012, 06:07 PM
You wrote, "God raised up an evil people" and that is correct. God allowed an ALREADY EVIL people to have power over Israel. God didn't MAKE them evil or raise them TO BE evil. God used an evil nation to discipline Israel. There is NOTHING evil about that. And because THEY are the ones who chose to commit the evil, of course, they are held responsible for the EVIL THEY COMMITTED -- killing babies, taking slaves, robbing the temple. God DID NOT INITIATE anything. He took His protective hand off of Israel and allowed the Chaldeans do to Israel what they were already doing -- acting out their evil ways.

I won't speak for BroMark,but I will say you are correct without changing the conclusion overall, mostly becasue your description is incomplete. Raising up the Chaldeans was to empower them, and God certainly uses His agents of evil to incite the evil to do evil. there is no doubt about that.

God is good, but that does not mean He is not into tough love, as you are yourself demonstrating. There is no point in trying to soften it, though. At best, under our American laws, God would be an accessory to the fact, or crime, and he would get the same punishment as the murderers. Here, he not only drove the get away car, but he hired the hit men, and then had them knocked off too. :spin:

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 06:08 PM
God does things that appear to be evil/wicked/bad, yes.That wasn't the question. The question is in regarding to how things actually are, not how they seem. Do you believe those things actually are evil/wicked/bad? If man did them then they would be evil/wicked/bad but not if God does them. His actions can be justified but man's cannot if man does something against God's will. God can kill someone and be completely justified for it. Man can't kill someone and be justified for doing so unless God tells him to do it. So, for man killing someone is evil/wicked/bad but for God it is not.

LookingUp
Jan 11th 2012, 06:16 PM
Yes it can. However, to a man, the great men of God praised God after they had gone through their trials. They praised him for who he was. The outcome of such testing must be very good for the one who is being tested.God ALLOWS things. He doesn't cause them. Because of God, the outcome can be very good. That is why we praise Him. We don't praise Him for the sin or the evil or the catastrophes, we praise Him because it is only due to His love and tenderness, always looking to bring good out of ugly, that good can come out of these things.

Eyelog
Jan 11th 2012, 06:21 PM
If you commit evil such as rape, you aren't rape but what you did was a wicked thing that came out of your wicked heart. If God commits what in Scripture is called "evil" such as bring disaster on a wicked nation, that doesn't make God evil but what he did was a just things that came out of a perfectly just heart.

Absolutely.

God is the only one who is Good, as Jesus Himself said to the rich young ruler.

He not only is above all judgment of man about Him, and above all judgment by the heavenly host, leaving no one else to judge but He Himself, but He is in fact Good, righteous, just, true, and not in the least bit the opposite of any of that. Praise God, the only true and just and good God. Amen.

But He has revealed in the Word how He has operated, and it gives man a choice: Submit because you agree with Him or submit because He is God, and able to thow your soul and body into hell, or both. But submit. If we don't make that choice, then, "he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18.

So, I openly admit the hand of God in orchestrating the conditions under which evil exists in the world. However, I stridently deny that this makes God evil, in any way.

Moreover, the whole purpose o the creation was not man's happiness. Nor was the Savior provided to restore man's happiness. Rather, the creation, the fall, the atonement and the opportunityh to earn treasure in heaven are all the means by which God was/is creating a very unique creation: A people for His very own, zealous in their free will to do good. Titus 2:14, which in the context of the entire Bible's teachings, is the number one most teleologically revelatory verse in the Bible, because it explains the ultimate end of God's plan, not just the means.

LookingUp
Jan 11th 2012, 06:32 PM
I won't speak for BroMark,but I will say you are correct without changing the conclusion overall, mostly becasue your description is incomplete. Raising up the Chaldeans was to empower them, and God certainly uses His agents of evil to incite the evil to do evil. there is no doubt about that.

God is good, but that does not mean He is not into tough love, as you are yourself demonstrating. There is no point in trying to soften it, though. At best, under our American laws, God would be an accessory to the fact, or crime, and he would get the same punishment as the murderers. Here, he not only drove the get away car, but he hired the hit men, and then had them knocked off too. :spin:God did not make the Chaldeans into an evil nation. He hardens an already wicked nation into the type of people their hearts have continually sought (Jer. 18). If they spoil in His hands (i.e. they initiate it) and resist the goodness He wants to bring out of them, He will harden them. That’s how God works according to His own Word. I think it’s foolish to compare God to a criminal the way you have. There is no comparison. God is the Potter. He watches, intervenes to guide us to good, ultimately allows us to choose our own way, and then gives US the last say and hardens us into what we’ve set out to become. There’s simply no comparison—“God is like a criminal”—but I suppose it sounds convincing for your view to those who think it’s okay to compare Him that way.

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 06:32 PM
You wrote, "God raised up an evil people" and that is correct. God allowed an ALREADY EVIL people to have power over Israel. God didn't MAKE them evil or raise them TO BE evil. God used an evil nation to discipline Israel. There is NOTHING evil about that. And because THEY are the ones who chose to commit the evil, of course, they are held responsible for the EVIL THEY COMMITTED -- killing babies, taking slaves, robbing the temple. God DID NOT INITIATE anything. He took His protective hand off of Israel and allowed the Chaldeans do to Israel what they were already doing -- acting out their evil ways.Exactly. Well said. It isn't as if God purposely changed who they were and then made them attack Israel. No, He just allowed them to be who they already were and allowed them to do the kind of things they had already done many times before as a punishment to Israel for the purpose of correcting them and getting them to change their ways.

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 06:35 PM
I won't speak for BroMark,but I will say you are correct without changing the conclusion overall, mostly becasue your description is incomplete. Raising up the Chaldeans was to empower them, and God certainly uses His agents of evil to incite the evil to do evil. there is no doubt about that.

God is good, but that does not mean He is not into tough love, as you are yourself demonstrating. There is no point in trying to soften it, though. At best, under our American laws, God would be an accessory to the fact, or crime, and he would get the same punishment as the murderers. Here, he not only drove the get away car, but he hired the hit men, and then had them knocked off too. :spin:Why are you comparing God to a human accessory to a crime? That's a very bad analogy. God can do whatever He wants and be justified for it without having done anything evil or wrong. But man can't do that. Man is obligated to act according to the standards God has set for us. God has no such obligations since He is, you know, God.

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 06:43 PM
That wasn't the question. The question is in regarding to how things actually are, not how they seem. Do you believe those things actually are evil/wicked/bad? If man did them then they would be evil/wicked/bad but not if God does them.

God uses human agents that may do evil things at His bidding.

Eyelog
Jan 11th 2012, 06:47 PM
No more than I would think Fenris would be guilty of intentional sin.

Can you say God is unjust and still not be guilty of intentional sin? Perhaps so, I don't know.

I just now made a blog post on this subject, arguing that Job was intentionally sinful during the narrative. http://bibleforums.org/entry.php/3111-Satan-s-Sifting-Found-Iniquity-in-quot-Righteous-quot-Job-What-s-That-Say-We-Are-In-For

LookingUp
Jan 11th 2012, 06:50 PM
Absolutely.

Good is the only one who is Good, as Jesus Himself said to the rich young ruler.

He not only is above all judgment of man about Him, and above all judgment by the heavenly host, leaving no one else to judge but He Himself, but He is in fact Good, righteous, just, true, and not in the least bit the opposite of any of that. Praise God, the only true and just and good God. Amen.

But He has revealed in the Word how He has operated, and it gives man a choice: Submit because you agree with Him or submit because He is God,It doesn’t have to be either or. I submit to Him whether I understand all His ways or not. But I also happen to agree with Him in these cases we are discussing. I happen to agree with His choice to take His protective hand off of a nation who turns their back on Him. I agree with His choice to do this even though He knows that wicked nation “B” will come against nation “A” who turned from Him. I know that His punishment of nation “A” is in an effort to get them to turn back to Him (i.e. to BLESS them). His punishments will bring great blessing for those who ultimately fear and love God, and His punishments will bring great pain for those who resist Him. But I do believe His punishments are meant to be corrective.


and able to thow your soul and body into hell, or both. But submit. If we don't make that choice, then, "he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18.By the way, one can submit and obey without agreeing to everything God chooses to do.


So, I openly admit the hand of God in orchestrating the conditions under which evil exists in the world. However, I stridently deny that this makes God evil, in any way.Orchestrating some conditions on occasion is quite different than orchestrating the evil that may or may not arise out of the conditions. When God wants His plans to be accomplished, He will most certainly orchestrate what is necessary to get it done. “My purpose will be established and I will accomplish all My good pleasure…truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it. Surely I will do it” (Isa. 46).


Moreover, the whole purpose o the creation was not man's happiness. Nor was the Savior provided to restore man's happiness. Rather, the creation, the fall, the atonement and the opportunityh to earn treasure in heaven are all the means by which God was creating a very unique creation: A people for His very own, zealous in their free will to do good. Titus 2:14, which in the context of the entire Bible's teachings, is the number one most teleologically revelatory verse in the Bible, because it explains the ultimate end of God's plan, not just the means.I agree. But I also believe that it was God’s desire that we didn’t always have to learn the hard way.

Brother Mark
Jan 11th 2012, 06:54 PM
God did not make the Chaldeans into an evil nation. He hardens an already wicked nation into the type of people their hearts have continually sought (Jer. 18). If they spoil in His hands (i.e. they initiate it) and resist the goodness He wants to bring out of them, He will harden them. That’s how God works according to His own Word. I think it’s foolish to compare God to a criminal the way you have. There is no comparison. God is the Potter. He watches, intervenes to guide us to good, ultimately allows us to choose our own way, and then gives US the last say and hardens us into what we’ve set out to become. There’s simply no comparison—“God is like a criminal”—but I suppose it sounds convincing for your view to those who think it’s okay to compare Him that way.

and


God ALLOWS things. He doesn't cause them. Because of God, the outcome can be very good. That is why we praise Him. We don't praise Him for the sin or the evil or the catastrophes, we praise Him because it is only due to His love and tenderness, always looking to bring good out of ugly, that good can come out of these things.

I didn't say he made them that way. I said he used them (i.e. raised them up) to do things to Israel and then punished them (the Chaldeans) for what they did. God is good, kind, full of mercy. His lovingkindness knows no bounds. He does things that are difficult for us to understand.

He put an evil spirit on Saul. He didn't "allow it" to happen. He did it himself. Did he make the spirit evil? No. But he sure used it. The spirit did evil things and God put him there. Does that make God evil? No way! God uses evil to bring about good in the heart of his people. It's a pattern that is in scripture both the new and old testaments.

Hope that clarified some of where I am coming from.

Grace to you!

Mark

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 06:57 PM
God uses human agents that may do evil things at His bidding.You still aren't really answering my question. Do you think God Himself does evil things? Yes or no? He does use humans who do evil things for His purposes but the question is whether or not He Himself does anything evil, which would mean He could be accused of wrongdoing? From His perspective it is not Him doing something evil because those things are serving His purposes (punishment, correction, etc.). So, He is completely justified in using evil people for His purposes. He allows evil things to occur but He doesn't do evil things.

The bottom line is this. God always does what is right and never does what is wrong. Would you agree with that?

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 07:01 PM
The bottom line is this. God always does what is right and never does what is wrong. Would you agree with that?

Yes.

But remember, it's all from God. You can't point so one thing and say "this is good, this is from God" and point to something else and say "this is evil, this is from Satan".

Eyelog
Jan 11th 2012, 07:05 PM
It doesn’t have to be either or. I submit to Him whether I understand all His ways or not. But I also happen to agree with Him in these cases we are discussing. By the way, one can submit and obey without agreeing to everything God chooses to do.

Not sure why you cut in half my statement by quoting the first part, commenting, and then quoting the second part, only to accuse me of offering a false dilemma.

I said:


a choice: Submit because you agree with Him or submit because He is God, and able to thow your soul and body into hell, or both. But submit. If we don't make that choice, then, "he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18.


Anyhow, I appreciate your sincere piety toward the Lord, whih I share. You and I,in our different ways, are able to accept the whole counsel on this subject without stumbling over it. But i will tell you. Those who have less faith than we, or none, do stumble, because of what they see in Scrdipture and what they see in life itself. We must be honest, and avoid the cop out that His ways are above our ways. He shows us and explains it in Scdripture. the so-called problem of evil is not a problem at all. It is a virtue!!! God ordained it in order to create us into the image of His Son.

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 07:07 PM
God uses evil to bring about good in the heart of his people.This sums it up well. Since the end result is something good then God using evil is a good thing. With that being the case I don't know how people can conclude that God using evil is a case of God doing evil. No, God using evil is a case of God doing good because good things result from it. This thread is about whether or not God does evil. No, He does not. He only does what is good. Does He use evil for good purposes? Yes. Do He do evil? No.

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 07:16 PM
Yes.

But remember, it's all from God. You can't point so one thing and say "this is good, this is from God" and point to something else and say "this is evil, this is from Satan"."Yes. But...". Couldn't you have just agreed and left it at that? ;)

As far as you saying "it's all from God" what do you mean exactly? Obviously, not all evil things that occur are things that God wants to occur such as the example of God wanting the Chaldeans to attack Israel in order to punish and correct them. I think it would be quite farfetched to think that every rape, murder and so on that occurs is something God orchestrated. So, I believe we can point to one thing and say "this is good, this is from God" and point to something else and say "this is evil, this is from Satan".

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 07:22 PM
"Yes. But...". Couldn't you have just agreed and left it at that? ;)You know me better than that.


As far as you saying "it's all from God" what do you mean exactly? Obviously, not all evil things that occur are things that God wants to occur such as the example of God wanting the Chaldeans to attack Israel in order to punish and correct them.Why not? Isn't God all-powerful?


I think it would be quite farfetched to think that every rape, murder and so on that occurs is something God orchestrated. Why not? Just because something "looks evil" doesn't mean that it is evil. Isn't that what you just said?


So, I believe we can point to one thing and say "this is good, this is from God" and point to something else and say "this is evil, this is from Satan".
How do we know which is which?

How can you support this from scripture?

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 07:29 PM
You know me better than that.I do. That's why I put the winking smiley face there because I knew you couldn't actually do that (agree and leave it at that) :)


Why not? Isn't God all-powerful?Yes, He is all-powerful but that doesn't mean He directly controls everything that happens. He can be all-powerful and allow people to make their own free will choices, right?


Why not? Just because something "looks evil" doesn't mean that it is evil. Isn't that what you just said?If nothing is actually evil and everything only looks evil then why would God punish anyone for their wickedness? Does He punish people only for how things seem or for how things actually are?


How do we know which is which?Scripture usually spells that out for us. Such as the example of the Chaldeans. It's made clear to us that God orchestrated that situation.


How can you support this from scripture?Like this...

Gen 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Now, if the vast wickedness that was occurring on the earth in Noah's day was all from God why would it have grieved Him and made Him angry enough to destroy everyone but Noah and his family? That wouldn't make any sense. Clearly, the vast wickedness on the earth at that time was not God's doing. If it was then there would have been no reason for Him to grieve and be angry about it and no reason to destroy everyone but Noah and his family.

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 07:40 PM
I do. That's why I put the winking smiley face there because I knew you couldn't actually do that (agree and leave it at that) No.


Yes, He is all-powerful but that doesn't mean He directly controls everything that happens. He can be all-powerful and allow people to make their own free will choices, right?Of course.

Why did God punish the Egyptians for enslaving the Jews? Didn't God already tell Abraham that his descendants would be slaves? Weren't the Egyptians just carrying out God's will?

Of course.

So why did God punish the Egyptians?

Because God didn't make the Egyptians enslave the Jews. He allowed them to select themselves for a bad mission.

Just as God allowed the Babylonians to select their mission, or the Nazis to select theirs. Or, conversely, the Americans to select their good mission to defeat the Nazis. And so on.


If nothing is actually evil and everything only looks evil then why would God punish anyone for their wickedness? Everyone does God's will. Everyone furthers His plans. But when a person carries out God's plans, does that person grow closer to God or further from Him? That's the difference.


Scripture usually spells that out for us. No scripture for 2000 years.



Now, if the vast wickedness that was occurring on the earth in Noah's day was all from God why would it have grieved Him and made Him angry enough to destroy everyone but Noah and his family? That wouldn't make any sense. Clearly, the vast wickedness on the earth at that time was not God's doing. If it was then there would have been no reason for Him to grieve and be angry about it and no reason to destroy everyone but Noah and his family.God can give man free will, and have man carry out His plans, and still be unhappy at the choices people make. God used the Assyrians as the rod of His wrath, but that doesn't mean He was happy with what they did.

fewarechosen
Jan 11th 2012, 07:44 PM
Father has a weapon he made.

its not for Children to play with.

children went and looked into knowledge of the weapon now we want to play with it, we sneak in and take the weapon and play with it even if we arent supposed to, because we dont know how to handle it properly or who is worthy to have it used against, we are children.

he is just to make it and use it, we arent. the sin is us touching what we arent supposed to.

KingFisher
Jan 11th 2012, 07:45 PM
The word in Hebrew actually means "evil".

Hey Fenris, :wave:

I wouldn't agree that the word "actually means evil". What I mean by that is, it can be translated as evil...but
It can and is also translated as other words such as calamity just to name one.

I don’t know Hebrew. So I have to lean on others who have studied the language. I use and respect Strong’s as a reliable source.

The Isaiah 45: 7 passage is a good starting point to address the discussion of evil as used in this thread.


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Obviously the passage is contrasting terms utilizing the opposite…ie light to darkness. To contrast peace with evil I want to look at how stong’s defines the words.

Strong defines peace as used in Isaiah 45 as:

Strong's H7965 – shalowm
1) completeness, soundness, welfare, peace
a) completeness (in number)
b) safety, soundness (in body)
c) welfare, health, prosperity
d) peace, quiet, tranquillity, contentment
e) peace, friendship
1) of human relationships
2) with God especially in covenant relationship
f) peace (from war)
g) peace (as adjective)

In the Authorized Version it was used 236 times. Of those uses of shalowm it was translated as peace 175 times, well 14, peaceably 9, welfare 5, salute + 07592 4, prosperity 4, did 3, safe 3, health 2, peaceable 2, misc 15

This is how Strong’s defines the word translated as evil used in Isaiah 45:

Strong's H7451 - ra`
adj
1) bad, evil
a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
c) evil, displeasing
d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
e) bad (of value)
f) worse than, worst (comparison)
g) sad, unhappy
h) evil (hurtful)
i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
2) deeds, actions
n m
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
a) evil, distress, adversity
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)
n f
3) evil, misery, distress, injury
a) evil, misery, distress
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)

In the Authorized Version it was used 663 times. Of those uses of ra` it was translated as evil 442 times, wickedness 59, wicked 25, mischief 21, hurt 20, bad 13, trouble 10, sore 9, affliction 6, ill 5, adversity 4, favoured 3, harm 3, naught 3, noisome 2, grievous 2, sad 2, misc 34

So contrasting peace as defined above, IMO calamity or trouble could be used here correctly.

Agree?
KingFisher

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 07:50 PM
Hey Fenris, :wave:Hi hi hi!


Agree?
KingFisher

Been back and forth with this already. No, I don't agree. I think people's visceral reaction here is "No way, God can't be evil" and so they're struggling to find an alternate translation for the word.

fewarechosen
Jan 11th 2012, 08:08 PM
6 degrees of biblical bacon ?

i bet if you took a concordence word and took all the submeanings you could pretty much connect every word to every other

i pick sad from list above
i can now use evil for sad wherever i want to fit, we arent doing evil we are doing sad things, God didnt make evil he made sad. so we never do evil it can all be translated as sad. so we only do sad things, that doesnt sound evil to me at all only sad.

and now wait since evil clearly means sad and sad means evil what else does sad mean ? oh its heavy ? so if you want you can say something is sad, evil, or heavy all same thing just however you want to use it. it can all be translated the same.

From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]

i will pick evil out of those so anytime scripture says someone is sad we can say evil if we want or if they are sad we can say they are evil.

heck ill pick heavy this time, so hes not saying anything is evil hes saying its heavy. no worries God doesent create evil he creates heavy. but then we can switch it to man does evil right when that fits.

that is what this is word play is looking like to me.

nzyr
Jan 11th 2012, 08:08 PM
Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? (John 8:46)

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (James 1:13)

KingFisher
Jan 11th 2012, 08:08 PM
Been back and forth with this already. No, I don't agree. I think people's visceral reaction here is "No way, God can't be evil" and so they're struggling to find an alternate translation for the word.

IMO that's a strawman and ad hominem though. I mean your attacking character and dismissing the arguments made. There's no visceral reaction or struggling to find an alternative translation. All that was done in my post was use common use of the word and context of what was being contrasted to aid in understanding. As has been shown, is can be translated as calamity.

KingFisher

KingFisher
Jan 11th 2012, 08:19 PM
6 degrees of biblical bacon ?

i bet if you took a concordence word and took all the submeanings you could pretty much connect every word to every other

i pick sad from list above
i can now use evil for sad wherever i want to fit, we arent doing evil we are doing sad things, God didnt make evil he made sad. so we never do evil it can all be translated as sad. so we only do sad things, that doesnt sound evil to me at all only sad.

and now wait since evil clearly means sad and sad means evil what else does sad mean ? oh its heavy ? so if you want you can say something is sad, evil, or heavy all same thing just however you want to use it. it can all be translated the same.

From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]

i will pick evil out of those so anytime scripture says someone is sad we can say evil if we want or if they are sad we can say they are evil.

heck ill pick heavy this time, so hes not saying anything is evil hes saying its heavy. no worries God doesent create evil he creates heavy. but then we can switch it to man does evil right when that fits.

that is what this is word play is looking like to me.

Yet, the men who carefully translated the scripture we have now used these tools...not as creatively haphazard as you've made it seem though.

KingFisher

fewarechosen
Jan 11th 2012, 08:23 PM
Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? (John 8:46)

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (James 1:13)

peirazō
pi-rad'-zo
From G3984; to test (objectively), that is, endeavor, scrutinize, entice, discipline: - assay, examine, go about, prove, tempt (-er), try.

i wonder if this reads.

let no man say when he is scrutinized, i am scrutinized of God: for God cannot be scrutinized with sad(i realized i can say sad for evil so edited), neither scrutinize he any man.

so if i dont want this to be about temptation i can just switch it out ? he was clearly not saying he would not tempt us he was saying he wouldnt scrutinize us. i dont think i want to be scrutinized so maybe i should pick that.

Saved7
Jan 11th 2012, 08:26 PM
Ok, this is a huge thread and I'll admit, I haven't read it all the way through. But I just thought that since we are talking about God doing evil, we should see what the concordance says is "evil".

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H7451&t=KJV
1) bad, evil

a) bad, disagreeable, malignant

b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)

c) evil, displeasing

d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)

e) bad (of value)

f) worse than, worst (comparison)

g) sad, unhappy

h) evil (hurtful)

i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)

j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)

1) in general, of persons, of thoughts

2) deeds, actions

n m

2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity

a) evil, distress, adversity

b) evil, injury, wrong

c) evil (ethical)

n f

3) evil, misery, distress, injury

a) evil, misery, distress

b) evil, injury, wrong

c) evil (ethical)

Knowing these things, then we can look at a scripture in Jeremiah and determine just what evil is when used in reference to what God does or doesn't do.

Jeremiah 18: 9And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

10If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

11Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

Doing evil isn't necessarily equated with wickedness, especially when it comes to God. God will use suffering as a form of "judgement", which is often seen as an "evil" in our eyes because it's painful in some way. But it often refines the survivors who believe God. ;)

Just thought I'd throw in my :2cents:

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 08:33 PM
Everyone does God's will.Um, no. Was it God's will in Noah's day for everyone in the world but Noah and his family to be wicked and turn against Him? Clearly not or else He wouldn't have grieved over having made them. If they were doing what He wanted them to do why would He grieve over it?


No scripture for 2000 years.Okay, I thought you were specifically referring to events recorded in scripture. How do we know which is which now? Well, it's not easy to tell and sometimes we just don't know, but I believe the Holy Spirit can reveal things like that to us.


God can give man free will, and have man carry out His plans, and still be unhappy at the choices people make. God used the Assyrians as the rod of His wrath, but that doesn't mean He was happy with what they did.Just because there are times when God will use the evil things that people do for His purposes doesn't mean that He is doing that every time people do evil things. When evil things happen it is not always for the purpose of them being punished or for the purpose of correcting their behavior. When a woman is raped she is not being punished by God and He is not looking to correct her behavior. There's nothing good about it. How can you think it's God's will every time a woman is raped or every time someone is killed?

KingFisher
Jan 11th 2012, 08:36 PM
so if i dont want this to be about temptation i can just switch it out ? he was clearly not saying he would not tempt us he was saying he wouldnt scrutinize us. i dont think i want to be scrutinized so maybe i should pick that.

Is this honestly what you think is being done with the discussion on the word translated as evil?

KingFisher

LookingUp
Jan 11th 2012, 08:42 PM
and



I didn't say he made them that way. I said he used them (i.e. raised them up) to do things to Israel and then punished them (the Chaldeans) for what they did. God is good, kind, full of mercy. His lovingkindness knows no bounds. He does things that are difficult for us to understand.

He put an evil spirit on Saul. He didn't "allow it" to happen. He did it himself. Did he make the spirit evil? No. But he sure used it. The spirit did evil things and God put him there. Does that make God evil? No way! God uses evil to bring about good in the heart of his people. It's a pattern that is in scripture both the new and old testaments.

Hope that clarified some of where I am coming from.

Grace to you!

MarkThank you for the clarification. God can use evil to punish evil. But in regards to the evil spirit and as to whether God "put" or "allowed," when the Bible says that the “distressing spirit” that troubled Saul was “from the Lord,” the writer was using an idiom to indicate that the Lord allowed or permitted the distressing spirit to come upon Saul. What God permits, He is stated in the bible to perform. If you question this, look it up and discover for yourself, if you’d like. But, the conclusion remains that God can and has used evil to punish evil.

fewarechosen
Jan 11th 2012, 08:51 PM
Is this honestly what you think is being done with the discussion on the word translated as evil?

KingFisher

in all honesty yes.

lets take the evil/wicked

i look in scripture and read i see lots of counts of him doing evil, i cant recall one of him doing something wicked.

so if biblicly someone wants to make me tie the two together they have to give me scripture not opinion about scripture.

so if i see other counts of him saying - this wickedness will i bring upon you - or something along those lines.

but as it stands in my mind reading scripture God is just to use and create evil we are wicked if we use evil.

Jas_1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

his own lust draws him away - but what is he lusting after ? ....evil

God didnt tempt him just like scripture said

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 08:53 PM
Been back and forth with this already. No, I don't agree. I think people's visceral reaction here is "No way, God can't be evil" and so they're struggling to find an alternate translation for the word.This is simply false. There's no struggle to find that the Hebrew word ra` has more definitions than just "evil". Why can you not acknowledge that? Plenty of people who can read Hebrew acknowledge it, so why can't you? Are you going to try to tell me that in the following verse David is saying that his soul was full of evil?

Psalm 88:3 For my soul is full of troubles (ra`): and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.

The soul of the guy who repeatedly praised God and poured his heart out to God while asking for deliverance from his enemies was full of evil? No, it was not. Was it full of trouble and distress? Yes, because of his enemies.

How about this one:

Psalm 34:19 Many are the afflictions (ra`) of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.

Do you think this should read "many are the evil of the righteous"? I would hope not because that would make no sense whatsoever. It is translated as "afflictions" for good reason.

Jeremiah 48:15 Moab is plundered and gone up from her cities; Her chosen young men have gone down to the slaughter,” says the King, Whose name is the LORD of hosts. 16 The calamity of Moab is near at hand, And his affliction(ra`) comes quickly.

Is this saying Moab's evil would come quickly? This is regarding the calamity and destruction that was coming upon Moab so it is correctly translated as "affliction" since that fits the context.

These are just a few examples where the Hebrew word ra` clearly means something besides evil, but if you want to continue trying to claim that the word can only mean evil, so be it. But there is plenty of scriptural support to show otherwise.

ewq1938
Jan 11th 2012, 08:58 PM
Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The key to this entire thread is contained in this one verse. I read all 12 pages just now and I am surprised that the key issue hasn't been discussed. There is a way to prove without any doubt that this word RA does in fact mean literal evil in this verse.

ewq1938
Jan 11th 2012, 08:59 PM
This is simply false. There's no struggle to find that the Hebrew word ra` has more definitions than just "evil". Why can you not acknowledge that? Plenty of people who can read Hebrew acknowledge it, so why can't you?

Yes the word can mean more than just literal evil...but don't you think there is a way to determine that rather than just applying whatever definition is more desired?

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 09:01 PM
Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The key to this entire thread is contained in this one verse. I read all 12 pages just now and I am surprised that the key issue hasn't been discussed. There is a way to prove without any doubt that this word RA does in fact mean literal evil in this verse.And? Prove it then. Notice that "evil" is being contrasted with peace there just like darkness is contrasted with light. What contrasts with peace? Evil? No. Evil contrasts with good. But calamity does contrast with peace. That's why some translations have the word "calamity" rather than "evil" since it fits the context much better.

fewarechosen
Jan 11th 2012, 09:01 PM
Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The key to this entire thread is contained in this one verse. I read all 12 pages just now and I am surprised that the key issue hasn't been discussed. There is a way to prove without any doubt that this word RA does in fact mean literal evil in this verse.

oh that was covered lol second quoted scripture in my first post here.

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 09:01 PM
Yes the word can mean more than just literal evil...but don't you think there is a way to determine that rather than just applying whatever definition is more desired?I don't apply whatever definition I desire, I look at the context to determine what definition is appropriate. Did you read my post #172?

ewq1938
Jan 11th 2012, 09:02 PM
And? Prove it then.

My pleasure:



H7451
??? ??
ra? ra^?a^h
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]

Essentially the word means literal evil when it's in the masculine form, or can mean "turmoil" if it's in the feminine form.

Guess what form the word is in John146?

LookingUp
Jan 11th 2012, 09:10 PM
Not sure why you cut in half my statement by quoting the first part, commenting, and then quoting the second part, only to accuse me of offering a false dilemma.

I said:
Anyhow, I appreciate your sincere piety toward the Lord, whih I share. You and I,in our different ways, are able to accept the whole counsel on this subject without stumbling over it. But i will tell you. Those who have less faith than we, or none, do stumble, because of what they see in Scrdipture and what they see in life itself. We must be honest, and avoid the cop out that His ways are above our ways. He shows us and explains it in Scdripture. the so-called problem of evil is not a problem at all. It is a virtue!!! God ordained it in order to create us into the image of His Son.Ah, I see. Yes, I agree. But I’m not sure about the word “ordained.” I believe God allowed evil knowing that He would be able to bring blessing to us in spite of it, not because of it.

ewq1938
Jan 11th 2012, 09:10 PM
I don't apply whatever definition I desire, I look at the context to determine what definition is appropriate. Did you read my post #172?

Yes. All well and good but that is not the correct way to determine which definition applies.

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 09:13 PM
My pleasure:



H7451
??? ??
ra? ra^?a^h
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]

Essentially the word means literal evil when it's in the masculine form, or can mean "turmoil" if it's in the feminine form.

Guess what form the word is in John?I'm not seeing where it says what you're saying anywhere within the definitions given for the word. Can you tell me exactly where you are seeing that? In Isaiah 45:7 the word can't mean evil as in "moral wickedness" because that doesn't fit the context as I pointed out in post #175.

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 09:15 PM
Yes. All well and good but that is not the correct way to determine which definition applies.It's not the only way, but it is one way to determine which definition applies.

KingFisher
Jan 11th 2012, 09:18 PM
in all honesty yes.

lets take the evil/wicked

i look in scripture and read i see lots of counts of him doing evil, i cant recall one of him doing something wicked.

so if biblicly someone wants to make me tie the two together they have to give me scripture not opinion about scripture.

so if i see other counts of him saying - this wickedness will i bring upon you - or something along those lines.

but as it stands in my mind reading scripture God is just to use and create evil we are wicked if we use evil.

Jas_1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

his own lust draws him away - but what is he lusting after ? ....evil

God didnt tempt him just like scripture said

I don't have a problem with the word translated as evil. As the Lexicons show ethical evil can be translated from ra`.
What I have a problem with is when moral evil (sin) is used. That doesn't fit with the use of the word or the context of contrasting with peace.

KingFisher

ewq1938
Jan 11th 2012, 09:18 PM
I'm not seeing where it says what you're saying anywhere within the definitions given for the word. Can you tell me exactly where you are seeing that? In Isaiah 45:7 the word can't mean evil as in "moral wickedness" because that doesn't fit the context.


It doesn't fit your context but again, that is not how one determines the meaning. The word RA is spelled two different ways in the manuscripts. You have to be able to read Hebrew at least in a beginners sense to be able to recognize between the masculine form and the feminine. Which form it is in determines the meaning, not our idea of context. These are fixed, unchangeable and unarguable rules of hebrew grammar.

The masculine form means literal evil, the feminine form means "turmoil" and "adversity" etc etc.

In this verse the word is in the masculine form which means God is declaring he creates literal evil.

ewq1938
Jan 11th 2012, 09:19 PM
It's not the only way, but it is one way to determine which definition applies.


No it's not. The Hebrew has strict rules for these things. Being educated in those rules would prevent one from saying such things.

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 09:20 PM
Um, no. Was it God's will in Noah's day for everyone in the world but Noah and his family to be wicked and turn against Him? Clearly not or else He wouldn't have grieved over having made them. It all furthered God's plan.


Okay, I thought you were specifically referring to events recorded in scripture. How do we know which is which now? Well, it's not easy to tell and sometimes we just don't know, but I believe the Holy Spirit can reveal things like that to us.
So we don't really know...


How can you think it's God's will every time a woman is raped or every time someone is killed?Because it's all from God, the good and the bad.

That doesn't mean it comes with the divine seal of approval. But it furthers His plans.

fewarechosen
Jan 11th 2012, 09:24 PM
I don't have a problem with the word translated as evil. As the Lexicons show ethical evil can be translated from ra`.
What I have a problem with is when moral evil (sin) is used. That doesn't fit with the use of the word or the context of contrasting with peace.

KingFisher

i dont have a problem with that at all actualy, but for me its a matter of scripture didnt read he created sin. so that seperates those for me.

and apologies if i came off petty with last couple posts, but it is in essence what i saw going on. perhaps not presented the best way, looking back it looks a lil mocking, but i dont think that was my intent.

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 09:25 PM
I don't have a problem with the word translated as evil. As the Lexicons show ethical evil can be translated from ra`.What is "ethical evil"?


What I have a problem with is when moral evil (sin) is used. That doesn't fit with the use of the word or the context of contrasting with peace.That's the point I've been trying to make as well. I can't understand at all how anyone can think that Isaiah 45:7 is saying that God created moral evil (wickedness) and that He does moral evil. How? Isn't moral evil the act of purposely rebelling and going against God's will? How can He do something against His own will? And, like you said, that definition doesn't fit the context of being contrasted with peace. So, I think "calamity" is a good translation of the word in that case since that word does contrast with peace.

LookingUp
Jan 11th 2012, 09:26 PM
Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The key to this entire thread is contained in this one verse. I read all 12 pages just now and I am surprised that the key issue hasn't been discussed. There is a way to prove without any doubt that this word RA does in fact mean literal evil in this verse.God creates rape?

ewq1938
Jan 11th 2012, 09:27 PM
God creates rape?

God says he creates evil. Do you really think rape is the kind of evil he creates?

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 09:27 PM
No it's not. The Hebrew has strict rules for these things.Then show me those rules. Talk is cheap.


Being educated in those rules would prevent one from saying such things.Wow, you really got me there. I guess you've "proven" your point. Now all you need to do is explain how the word "evil" fits the context of the verse. Good luck! ;)

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 09:29 PM
God says he creates evil. Do you really think rape is the kind of evil he creates?So, what kind of evil does He create then?

ewq1938
Jan 11th 2012, 09:29 PM
Then show me those rules. Talk is cheap.


I already have. I posted the full definition and highlighted how there is a definitional difference between the masculine and fem. form. All that is left to do is prove it's in the masculine. I assume you have no tools or ways to figure that out, correct?

ewq1938
Jan 11th 2012, 09:31 PM
So, what kind of evil does He create then?

He simply states he creates evil. He doesn't get into specifics in that verse as to what form of evil.

My point is simply to prove God creates literal evil, not to discuss each individual account of the times he does it.

fewarechosen
Jan 11th 2012, 09:33 PM
Then show me those rules. Talk is cheap.

Wow, you really got me there. I guess you've "proven" your point. Now all you need to do is explain how the word "evil" fits the context of the verse. Good luck! ;)

i doubt we can prove anything.

Christ couldnt prove he was right to many and if he couldnt i dont think i have much a shot.

LookingUp
Jan 11th 2012, 09:35 PM
God says he creates evil. Do you really think rape is the kind of evil he creates?Name the kinds of evil He creates. Can we show some examples from Scripture? How about the "evil" that is contrasted with "peace"? Does that give us an example of the kind of evil God creates?

KingFisher
Jan 11th 2012, 09:36 PM
What is "ethical evil"? It's subjective and undefinable from person to person. Obviously moral evil for Christians is objective and defined by scripture.

KingFisher

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 09:37 PM
It doesn't fit your context but again, that is not how one determines the meaning. The word RA is spelled two different ways in the manuscripts. You have to be able to read Hebrew at least in a beginners sense to be able to recognize between the masculine form and the feminine. Which form it is in determines the meaning, not our idea of context. These are fixed, unchangeable and unarguable rules of hebrew grammar.

The masculine form means literal evil, the feminine form means "turmoil" and "adversity" etc etc.

In this verse the word is in the masculine form which means God is declaring he creates literal evil.Where are you getting this information? I have seen where the masculine form can mean evil, distress, misery, injury, and calamity so I want to know where you are getting your information from.

fewarechosen
Jan 11th 2012, 09:37 PM
Name the kinds of evil He creates.

where in scripture does it say there are different kinds of evil ?

not saying there isnt just none i recall.

LookingUp
Jan 11th 2012, 09:38 PM
where in scripture does it say there are different kinds of evil ?

not saying there isnt just none i recall.It relates to the poster's question.

ewq1938
Jan 11th 2012, 09:40 PM
Name the kinds of evil He creates. Can we show some examples from Scripture? How about the "evil" that is contrasted with "peace"? Does that give us an example of the kind of evil God creates?

I have no interest in doing that. I am simply proving that God said exactly what he said and that the translation is correct in that one particular verse. Once this is finished and accepted, then it is appropriate to move onto the examples of Him doing this.

LookingUp
Jan 11th 2012, 09:42 PM
I have no interest in doing that. I am simply proving that God said exactly what he said and that the translation is correct in that one particular verse. Once this is finished and accepted, then it is appropriate to move onto the examples of Him doing this.I don't think anyone is arguing with the choice of word "evil" in that verse. They're arguing about what it actually means (i.e. moral or ethical evil). If we all agree that God does not create or commit moral evil, then we're done.

ewq1938
Jan 11th 2012, 09:43 PM
Where are you getting this information? I have seen where the masculine form can mean evil, distress, misery, injury, and calamity so I want to know where you are getting your information from.


I have already posted it lol

One last time:

H7451
??? ??
ra? ra^?a^h
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]

See how the feminine form has a different meaning? A lesser meaning of evil? If the word RA was in that form in the verse, then your opinion would be correct but since it's in the masculine, your opinion is incorrect.

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 09:44 PM
It all furthered God's plan.Are you saying you believe that God wanted everyone but Noah and his family to rebel against Him? If so why would He have grieved over having made them? Please answer these questions specifically.


So we don't really know...We can know that much evil goes against God's will since He punishes people for their evil actions. If they were just doing His will why punish them? Just because He can use their actions for good doesn't mean He always does and also doesn't mean He wanted them to be evil in the first place.


Because it's all from God, the good and the bad.

That doesn't mean it comes with the divine seal of approval. But it furthers His plans.So, He might not approve of something but it's still His plan? I don't see how that makes any sense. For example, He didn't approve of Sodom and Gomorrah's wickedness and He proved that by destroying them but you think it was His plan for them to be wicked so that He could destroy them? Is that what you think?

ewq1938
Jan 11th 2012, 09:45 PM
I don't think anyone is arguing with the choice of word "evil" in that verse. They're arguing about what it actually means (i.e. moral or ethical evil). If we all agree that God does not create or commit moral evil, then we're done.



But that's the whole issue. Too much ignorance about the rules of Hebrew is causing incorrect opinions about what the word means in that verse. It means literal evil. I wouldn't say it's moral evil because God is justified to create this kind of evil when he chooses to, but it is not speaking of turmoil etc in that verse but evil.

fewarechosen
Jan 11th 2012, 09:47 PM
by the way thanks for general input on topic of hebrew, im ignorant of such things so it helps me get more knowledge i appreciate it.

LookingUp
Jan 11th 2012, 09:48 PM
But that's the whole issue. Too much ignorance about the rules of Hebrew is causing incorrect opinions about what the word means in that verse. It means literal evil. I wouldn't say it's moral evil because God is justified to create this kind of evil when he chooses to, but it is not speaking of turmoil etc in that verse but evil.What are some examples of "literal evil"?

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 09:49 PM
I have already posted it lol

H7451
??? ??
ra? ra^?a^h
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]

See how the feminine form has a different meaning? A lesser meaning of evil? If the word RA was in that form in the verse, then your opinion would be correct but since it's in the masculine, your opinion is incorrect.Dude. Come on. I'm asking where did you get what you posted here from? What is the source? Good grief, man. This is not rocket science. Is it Strong's, Thayer's...what? Man, oh man.

By the way, it's bad practice to copy and paste something like that without giving the source.

KingFisher
Jan 11th 2012, 09:58 PM
Dude. Come on. I'm asking where did you get what you posted here from? What is the source? Good grief, man. This is not rocket science. Is it Strong's, Thayer's...what? Man, oh man.

And along those lines please provide sources stating that the Isaiah 45:7 ra' is in the masculine form.

Thanks,
KingFisher

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 10:09 PM
But that's the whole issue. Too much ignorance about the rules of Hebrew is causing incorrect opinions about what the word means in that verse. It means literal evil. I wouldn't say it's moral evil because God is justified to create this kind of evil when he chooses to, but it is not speaking of turmoil etc in that verse but evil.What kind of evil? Explain in detail what kind of evil you think God created. To just say He created evil only creates confusion because people tend to automatically assume that means He created moral evil/wickedness.

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 10:11 PM
Are you saying you believe that God wanted everyone but Noah and his family to rebel against Him?
God wanted the world to be the way it is today. And that could only happen if those events in the bible happened the way they did.



If so why would He have grieved over having made them? Do you think it made God happy to have the Babylonians destroy His Temple and murder, enslave, and uproot His people?




We can know that much evil goes against God's will since He punishes people for their evil actions. And we get to see this? Not usually.



So, He might not approve of something but it's still His plan?Again, did God approve of the Egyptians enslaving the Jews? Did He reward them for it? No and no. But it was part of His plan, as He said to Abraham.

John146
Jan 11th 2012, 10:21 PM
God wanted the world to be the way it is today. And that could only happen if those events in the bible happened the way they did.What I'm asking is if you believe that God wanted everyone in the world except Noah and his family to rebel against Him? Yes or no? If man has free will as I believe then that is how God wanted it to be but that doesn't mean that man always chooses to do what God wants him to do.


Do you think it made God happy to have the Babylonians destroy His Temple and murder, enslave, and uproot His people? Why did God do that to His people? Because they weren't behaving the way He wanted them to, right? Yet you are trying to say everyone always does God's will? How can that be when He punishes people for not doing His will?


And we get to see this? Not usually. So what? We know He has punished people for their evil actions so why would He punish people for doing what He wanted them to do? Again, He can use them for His purposes but that doesn't mean He wanted them to be evil in the first place.


Again, did God approve of the Egyptians enslaving the Jews? Did He reward them for it? No and no. But it was part of His plan, as He said to Abraham.It's never His plan for people to be wicked but He can use that and turn it into something good. Just because He does that sometimes doesn't mean that His His plan from the beginning. Do you think when those who die in their wickedness without ever repenting that it was God's plan? If so then how can it be that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and instead wants them to repent (Eze 18:23)? Not everything that happens is according to God's will. Otherwise, there'd be no reason for Him to punish anyone. People could just say "Well, I just did what you wanted me to do so why should I be punished?" and they'd have that excuse.

Fenris
Jan 11th 2012, 10:30 PM
What I'm asking is if you believe that God wanted everyone in the world except Noah and his family to rebel against Him? Yes or no? Eh, God would no doubt prefer that we were all good boys and girls. But He uses our actions regardless.


Why did God do that to His people? Because they weren't behaving the way He wanted them to, right? Yet you are trying to say everyone always does God's will?Everyone always carries out God's plans, regardless of what they do.


So what? So we can't know what comes from God and what comes from Satan, if you are correct.


People could just say "Well, I just did what you wanted me to do so why should I be punished?" and they'd have that excuse.Right, and I discussed this above already. No one forced the Egyptians to enslave the Jews. They chose to do it. Mind you, God never told Abraham who would enslave his descendants.

Saved7
Jan 11th 2012, 10:31 PM
So, just to clarify things for me....is anybody here suggesting that when God does evil, that He is committing sin or being wicked? Because if not, then would it be correct to assume we all agree that whatever God does is just and righteous? And if so then what's all the hub bub about?

fewarechosen
Jan 11th 2012, 10:33 PM
So, just to clarify things for me....is anybody here suggesting that when God does evil, that He is committing sin or being wicked? Because if not, then would it be correct to assume we all agree that whatever God does is just and righteous? And if so then what's all the hub bub about?

No not I at all, and to me they are three different things.

no where in scripture do i see God being wicked or sinful. i do see creating and using evil.

Saved7
Jan 11th 2012, 10:38 PM
No not I at all, and to me they are three different things.

no where in scripture do i see God being wicked or sinful. i do see creating and using evil.

WEll, alrighty then! We're all on the same page then.:D

Ooops, new mod privelges I accidently edited your post instead of quoting it! :lol: :blush: Hopefully I fixed it before too many people saw it.

Brother Mark
Jan 11th 2012, 11:14 PM
Eh, God would no doubt prefer that we were all good boys and girls. But He uses our actions regardless.

Agreed


Everyone always carries out God's plans, regardless of what they do.

Why do you say that? Are you sure that's not a philosophical thought instead of a doctrinal one? For instance, there are times we know for sure it is God's will for things to happen (i.e. Babylonians murdering Israel). But how do we know it was the will of God for Adam to eat the fruit that God specifically forbade Adam to eat? Would God "will" a man to go against God's stated will?

Is not more accurate to say that God uses evil than wills it? For instance, Babylon was quite willing to be used by God. But in the end, God punished them for what they did. Was it his plan for Israel to disobey and not keep the Sabbaths? I don't know of any scripture to suggest that. But we do know that Moses warned Israel about it happening as did Jeremiah, Isaiah, Habakkuk and others. God raised up Babylon for his purposes. But I don't find anywhere that he placed the evil that was in their hearts there. It seems to me he used what was already there to further his plans.


Right, and I discussed this above already. No one forced the Egyptians to enslave the Jews. They chose to do it. Mind you, God never told Abraham who would enslave his descendants.

Is a prophesy of what will happen the same thing as a plan for it to happen?

Grace to you,

Mark

KingFisher
Jan 11th 2012, 11:18 PM
WEll, alrighty then! We're all on the same page then.:D[/SIZE]
YEA!!!:pp

Although it still would help if we could get the masculine/feminine usage thing cleared up with sources...opps :spin:

It's been stated that calamity or trouble can't be used(they still fit best within the contrasting context) because ra' is used in a masculine tense. If this is the case I'd like to read about it from those sources.

KingFisher

Eyelog
Jan 11th 2012, 11:24 PM
WEll, alrighty then! We're all on the same page then.:D

Ooops, new mod privelges I accidently edited your post instead of quoting it! :lol: :blush: Hopefully I fixed it before too many people saw it.

And the problem of evil is solved forever and ever! Hoorah! No one will ever question God on that again! Hip hip hooray. :)

Saved7
Jan 11th 2012, 11:26 PM
YEA!!!:pp

Although it still would help if we could get the masculine/feminine usage thing cleared up with sources...opps :spin:

It's been stated that calamity or trouble can't be used(they still fit best within the contrasting context) because ra' is used in a masculine tense. If this is the case I'd like to read about it from those sources.

KingFisher


aaah yes, to be a scholar of Hebrew, indeed it would be nice to understand these things. So who ever does, then please explain away. :D

ewq1938
Jan 11th 2012, 11:46 PM
Dude. Come on. I'm asking where did you get what you posted here from? What is the source? Good grief, man. This is not rocket science. Is it Strong's, Thayer's...what? Man, oh man.

By the way, it's bad practice to copy and paste something like that without giving the source.

It's from the Strong's. All you had to do is Google it.

ewq1938
Jan 11th 2012, 11:46 PM
And along those lines please provide sources stating that the Isaiah 45:7 ra' is in the masculine form.

Thanks,
KingFisher

First you go here and see the word and what form it's in:

(http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa45.pdf)http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

Then click on Isaiah 45, then scroll to verse 7.

To know how to tell feminine from masculine you go here:

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Four/Feminine_Nouns/feminine_nouns.html

ewq1938
Jan 12th 2012, 12:02 AM
This is the masculine form of RA:

10385

And the feminine form, note the extra character as that is what makes it feminine:

10386

rejoice44
Jan 12th 2012, 01:45 AM
I just now made a blog post on this subject, arguing that Job was intentionally sinful during the narrative. http://bibleforums.org/entry.php/3111-Satan-s-Sifting-Found-Iniquity-in-quot-Righteous-quot-Job-What-s-That-Say-We-Are-In-For

I would disagree with a number of your premises. 1. That Job called his three friends as witnesses against God. Job claimed they were God's witnesses against him.

Job never realized that he was sinning against God, rather he was in a wrestling match with God, much like Jacob.

ewq1938
Jan 12th 2012, 01:47 AM
Job never realized that he was sinning against God, rather he was in a wrestling match with God, much like Jacob.

Oh he realized it after God confronted him.

rejoice44
Jan 12th 2012, 01:54 AM
Oh he realized it after God confronted him.

Yes, and his heart did reproach him.

LookingUp
Jan 12th 2012, 02:18 AM
But that's the whole issue. Too much ignorance about the rules of Hebrew is causing incorrect opinions about what the word means in that verse. It means literal evil. I wouldn't say it's moral evil because God is justified to create this kind of evil when he chooses to, but it is not speaking of turmoil etc in that verse but evil.But the definition you gave DOES say "moral" evil.
My pleasure:
H7451
??? ??
ra? ra^?a^h
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]

Essentially the word means literal evil when it's in the masculine form, or can mean "turmoil" if it's in the feminine form.

Guess what form the word is in John?And what form is in “John”? I thought we were talking about Isaiah. Do you see your definition above that the masculine form includes “moral” evil? Why do you say, then, that you wouldn’t say it’s moral evil?

If not "moral" evil, then what do you mean by "literal" evil?

And...what's the point you're trying to make if you admit it's not "moral" evil that God creates? You say it's "literal" evil that He creates but admit it's not "moral" evil...so what's your point exactly?

ewq1938
Jan 12th 2012, 02:25 AM
But the definition you gave DOES say "moral" evil.

It is one of two options and since it is God we are speaking of, he does not commit moral evil because that is sinful. God creates "natural evil" or like I said "literal evil"...evil not just turmoil.


And what form is in “John”? I thought we were talking about Isaiah.

We are only speaking about one verse in Isaiah.

LookingUp
Jan 12th 2012, 02:56 AM
It is one of two options and since it is God we are speaking of, he does not commit moral evil because that is sinful. God creates "natural evil" or like I said "literal evil"...evil not just turmoil.You wrote, "Essentially the word means literal evil when it's in the masculine form, or can mean "turmoil" if it's in the feminine form." I understand what turmoil is.

Is "turmoil" moral evil?
Is "turmoil" natural evil?
Is "turmoil" literal evil?

Give me an example of "literal" evil.


We are only speaking about one verse in Isaiah.That's what I thought. Why did you write "John"? Was that a mistake or is the word "evil" in John somewhere too?

ewq1938
Jan 12th 2012, 03:02 AM
That's what I thought. Why did you write "John"? Was that a mistake or is the word "evil" in John somewhere too?

I was talking to John.



Is "turmoil" moral evil?
Is "turmoil" natural evil?
Is "turmoil" literal evil?

Turmoil is not the same as evil. It's related but to a lesser extent which is why turmoil etc is part of the feminine form.

LookingUp
Jan 12th 2012, 03:44 AM
I was talking to John.Oh! You didn't write out the 146..."John146." And I believe you're supposed to use a comma before the name of a person directly addressed. It would look like the following. Guess what form the word is in, John146? But why worry about grammar, right? LOL! Just kiddin' with ya.


Turmoil is not the same as evil. It's related but to a lesser extent which is why turmoil etc is part of the feminine form.Give me an example of what you call "literal" evil.

ewq1938
Jan 12th 2012, 03:50 AM
Oh! You didn't write out the 146..."John146." And I believe you're supposed to use a comma before the name of a person directly addressed. It would like like the following. Guess what form the word is in, John146? But why worry about grammar, right? LOL! Just kiddin' with ya.

Yeah yeah... :)



Give me an example of what you call "literal" evil.

Killing 42 children because they taunted someone about being bald:

2 Kings 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

LookingUp
Jan 12th 2012, 04:49 AM
Yeah yeah... :) Killing 42 children because they taunted someone about being bald: 2 Kings 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.Why was that "literal" evil?

First of all, why do you say it was “children”? The word “naar” was used for Joseph when he was thirst years old (cf. Genesis 41:12, 40,46). Joshua was a “naar” when he was forty-five years of age (Exodus 33:11; Johshua 24:29). Second of all, what makes you think they were killed because they taunted Elisha?

Can you give an example of “literal” evil?

Eyelog
Jan 12th 2012, 06:48 AM
I would disagree with a number of your premises. 1. That Job called his three friends as witnesses against God. Job claimed they were God's witnesses against him.

Job never realized that he was sinning against God, rather he was in a wrestling match with God, much like Jacob.

Hi, Redeemed. Thanks for taking the time to read my blog post. I think your response is very interesting.

However, you appear to be interpreting my comments in my post in a way I did not intend. I was using an analogy to MT 18, and I admitted right there it was primarily in jest. My point was that his friends heard Job say things that were complaining about God. That's not the way we are supposed to deal with our concerns about God. To the extent those complaints were unfounded, or untrue, they were defamatory toward God. Job should have first taken his concerns directly to the Lord, but he didn't.

So far as him never realizing he was sinning against God, the only thing Job was self-deceived about was that he was unjustified in letting God have it. But, Job intentionally let God have it. He dished it out, preferring to die than to live under a God who was willing to afflict him only to strain out a gnat of iniquity. As a good friend pointed out to me, Job says:



Job 10:4 Hast thou eyes of flesh? or seest thou as man seeth?
Job 10:5 Are thy days as the days of man? are thy years as man's days,
Job 10:6 That thou enquirest after mine iniquity, and searchest after my sin?

So far as a wrestling match with God, did Job hold God down until He blessed Job? I think not.

God greatly chastised Job and forced him to repent of his self-righteousness and demands upon God.

When we sin, we usually know exactly what we are doing. We often justify it in our own minds, and Satan is always at hand to lead us down that path of self-justification and rationalization. That does not make our sins any less intentional. But here, there is no question. Job is shaking his fist at God. One could argue he is cursing God, though i would not say he cursed God to his face. When God began to speak, Job stopped complaining, and began repenting.

Please help me to see it if I am missing your point. :)

LookingUp
Jan 12th 2012, 06:51 AM
Good news, guys, my friend who's a scholar in Hebrew shared the following:

Right off the bat, anything taken form Strong's Dictionary is of very little value. No one who knows the languages takes anything from Strong's seriously. (Besides, even Strong admits that the masculine form can denote evil "naturally" as well as "morally".)

Second, it's doubtful that any pair of Hebrew forms carry different senses based on their grammatical gender. With the ra root, it's often difficult to tell whether a particular form is a noun or an adjective (or an adjective functioning as a noun). So even isolating the masculine noun from the feminine noun and their respective adjectives is tricky, much less positing different meanings for one against the other.

The form which occurs in Isaiah 45:7 is רָע — presumably a noun (or, again, an adj. functioning as a noun) since the corresponding parallel is a noun. This form also occurs in Leviticus 27:10-12, speaking of good and bad animals (obviously referring to their quality, not their morality). Of course, there are many situations where 'harm' and 'moral evil' coincide, which is presumably where the polyvalence of the word originates. Numerous examples of this form in the sense of 'harm' could be stretched into 'moral evil' (e.g., Ecclesiastes 9:3; Psalm 49:5; Jeremiah 39:12) if the interpreter wants to go that route. But none of the dictionaries I consulted propose that the masculine form is restricted to moral evil; they all include 'harm' or such in their definition of the masculine noun. One could propose that the masculine form more often tends to 'moral evil' than the feminine, but as a linguist I can't imagine there's anything inherent in the forms that drives that.

As usual, context informs meaning, not grammatical gender. Your observation about the sense of the antithetic parallel — peace rather than righteousness or such — is spot on.
And the sense of 'moral evil' is no more "literal" than the sense of 'harm, damage' — both are entirely literal.

Rullion Green
Jan 12th 2012, 01:11 PM
Woe saying strong's is of very little value is an exaggeration ! there are better modern ones which include new knowledge of Hebrew due to Archeological finds... but still.

As an interested lurker the problem i see happening in this discussion is people are talking past each other due to the fact they have differing definitions of evil. Major problem because evil is so multifaceted and as such it is very difficult to pin down what specific type of evil is being discussed, and as a result there are a lot of pages flying by without any answers, which as a lurker is starting to annoy me and my mouse finger lol.

I tried to define evil in a previous post as "That which goes against God's created order and laws". This definition can be seen in the Bible as Choas it is often depicted as the enemy of God, this can also be seen in ANE sea monster motifs which has chaos depicted as a dragon or sea monster Leviathan, this ANE theme is replete in the OT and can also be seen in the NT no prizes for guessing who the sea monster/dragon is.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. Rev21:1

No more agents of chaos human or angelic breaking Gods order and laws?...... sounds like heaven.

Perhaps a better definition can be given, but someone has to define the term, for the sake of my mouse finger.

fewarechosen
Jan 12th 2012, 01:20 PM
you ever notice if you say

God said he created evil - you will get a bombard of concordence guessing games and refutes

now say

God said he is love - you wont get those word games

no one will say well he doesnt really mean love he means affection, he doesnt mean love he means kidness,well wait is it natural love,moral love,literal love,love love, puppy love, yadda.. yadda..

so interesting everyone has a perfect grasp of love, but not so much evil. do you think that is really the case ?

or do you think because the idea of God creating evil like he said he did is more challenging to some so they dont want to accept it as easy as God is love.

the Holy Spirit answers that question for me

Fenris
Jan 12th 2012, 01:28 PM
Why do you say that? Are you sure that's not a philosophical thought instead of a doctrinal one? For instance, there are times we know for sure it is God's will for things to happen (i.e. Babylonians murdering Israel). But how do we know it was the will of God for Adam to eat the fruit that God specifically forbade Adam to eat? God made the serpent the wisest animal in the garden on purpose- so that it could tempt Adam and Eve into eating the fruit of knowledge. God wants man to have free will, otherwise He ouwld have made robots to serve Him.


Is not more accurate to say that God uses evil than wills it? You could put it like that.



Is a prophesy of what will happen the same thing as a plan for it to happen?God's statement to Abraham about his descendants being enslaved doesn't seem to be a prophesy. More like a condition of a covenant?

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 12th 2012, 01:56 PM
why would insist that the very same word for evil in all those cases changes ?

i am showing scripture.

if we start going down translation route then i can say every word was translated by a translater and can come to all sorts of conclusions, many do.

you can say this same evil mentioned here is different from the very same definition spoken of that is in mens heart. h7451

scripture says he created it and does it, I think i will stick with that.

Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these {i things.

Hi Fewarechosen...

As I skim through the thread from the beginning, I note that you are quoting verses that call out God and evil, which I personally see as a bit dangerous to do but OK, it is now out there. So to my question. I'm assuming that you are saying that in God creating all things, thus 'evil' has to be included within all things, as well as sin for that matter, correct?

So when the Pharisees declared that Jesus was of Beelzebub, would you say Beelzebub represents evilness?

Matthew 12:22 Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw. 23 All the crowds were amazed, and were saying, "This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?" 24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons." 25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.

26 "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? 27 "If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges. 28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 "Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You.

My comments are that I believe in a sovereign God, so all things are under His will and thus control. I also believe that God is Holy. Period... Never evil, and also never in sin. I do believe He uses the sin of man to accomplish His will, yet Man is 100% and fully accountable for his actions. God used the sin of Sarah and Jacob in lying and tricking Isaac for the blessing.... even in sin, God used it according to His will.

God however judges and thus punishes evilness. God washed away the first world because of evilness was continual within their heart.


Sin is an action... Evil is a mindset... Sins are forgiven through Christ. Evilness is judged and punished.

Hebrews 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.


FOR....


1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death. 18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.


God Judges evil.... God never, repeating never does evil!!!!!


For His glory...

fewarechosen
Jan 12th 2012, 02:08 PM
Woe saying strong's is of very little value is an exaggeration ! there are better modern ones which include new knowledge of Hebrew due to Archeological finds... but still.

As an interested lurker the problem i see happening in this discussion is people are talking past each other due to the fact they have differing definitions of evil. Major problem because evil is so multifaceted and as such it is very difficult to pin down what specific type of evil is being discussed, and as a result there are a lot of pages flying by without any answers, which as a lurker is starting to annoy me and my mouse finger lol.

I tried to define evil in a previous post as "That which goes against God's created order and laws". This definition can be seen in the Bible as Choas it is often depicted as the enemy of God, this can also be seen in ANE sea monster motifs which has chaos depicted as a dragon or sea monster Leviathan, this ANE theme is replete in the OT and can also be seen in the NT no prizes for guessing who the sea monster/dragon is.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. Rev21:1

No more agents of chaos human or angelic breaking Gods order and laws?...... sounds like heaven.

Perhaps a better definition can be given, but someone has to define the term, for the sake of my mouse finger.

hello nobunaga,

i would be uncertain of what definition to give, as of now i know i dont fully understand the meaning in scripture. I know he determines the definition we are trying to seek.

one concept that comes up is picture like a weapon.

father created a weapon and he is just to use it and knows for what purpose and who to use it against.
we are children and we got knowledge of that weapon now we are enticed to play with it
we sneak in and use that weapon on eachother/ourselves ignorantly and in so doing we sin and are wicked.

much like a child sneaking and playing with a fathers matches/gun/knife/ in physical life. dad knows all about it and how dangerous it is and how to use it but kids dont. so to him its not sin to use but for us it is.

so if we are enticed away by watching cool shows on tv and we go pick up dads knife that we saw and start dancing around playing and we cut one another/ourselves, you know hes gonna spank you for it.

God can rip up, starve, burn who he wants, but we sure cant because we are no mans judge, so we dont touch that destructive force/weapon we are told to leave it alone.

just food for thought,

fewarechosen
Jan 12th 2012, 02:13 PM
Hi Fewarechosen...

As I skim through the thread from the beginning, I note that you are quoting verses that call out God and evil, which I personally see as a bit dangerous to do but OK, it is now out there. So to my question. I'm assuming that you are saying that in God creating all things, thus 'evil' has to be included within all things, as well as sin for that matter, correct?So when the Pharisees declared that Jesus was of Beelzebub, would you say Beelzebub represents evilness?

Matthew 12:22 Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw. 23 All the crowds were amazed, and were saying, "This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?" 24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons." 25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.

26 "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? 27 "If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges. 28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 "Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You.

My comments are that I believe in a sovereign God, so all things are under His will and thus control. I also believe that God is Holy. Period... Never evil, and also never in sin. I do believe He uses the sin of man to accomplish His will, yet Man is 100% and fully accountable for his actions. God used the sin of Sarah and Jacob in lying and tricking Isaac for the blessing.... even in sin, God used it according to His will.

God however judges and thus punishes evilness. God washed away the first world because of evilness was continual within their heart.


Sin is an action... Evil is a mindset... Sins are forgiven through Christ. Evilness is judged and punished.

Hebrews 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.


FOR....


1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death. 18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.


God Judges evil.... God never, repeating never does evil!!!!!


For His glory...
as soon as i read to this underlined part i stopped, i have said multiple times in this thread i do not say he created sin in and for some reason people keep trying to make the two the same.

scripture says he created evil not me

my mind notes a difference in the two (so does scripture, says god does evil and created it but not sin), it appears most dont see the same, im ok with that but its hard for me to have a discussion when people keep inferring i am saying he created sin.

many have tried to attach "wicked" now "sin" and all kinds of other words to evil to then use that argument to try and defeat the fact that scripture clearly says he created evil. but notice many have to try to attach those words to it beause no scripture states he doesnt create or do evil.

somehow many equate that to God sinning or being evil- i dont at all.

no where do i find in scripture God created sin

i can quote a direct quote from God himself that he created evil, i think its dangerous to not aknowledge he did make it when he said he did. but again everyone is free to their opinion.

how does it call out God and evil ? he wrote it, im not calling him out, im looking at what he wrote. i accept scripture and i look below. he said he would do evil and he did, i am trying to understand it. i respect your opinion but i will defer to scripture.
Eze 6:10 And they shall know that I am the LORD, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them.

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 12th 2012, 02:31 PM
as soon as i read to this underlined part i stopped, i have said multiple times in this thread i do not say he created sin in and for some reason people keep trying to make the two the same.


Be patient with me Fewarechosen... As I stated I am reading from the beginning and haven't seen all the replies yet. Now I would declare that Sin is something within God's will that He uses, thus He is not the author of sin, but has allowed for sin to travel within the world. [I would offer a bit stronger reply that all things are because of God's will, but that will get lost here, I'm sure]


my mind notes a difference in the two, it appears most dont see the same, im ok with that but its hard for me to have a discussion when people keep inferring i am saying he created sin.

Again, I agree that God is not behind sin, but He did allow for it, thus planned within His will. So i don't think with regards to sin, if you declared that God uses sin within His will, you be wrong.



no where do i find in scripture God created sin

So were did sin come from then? Do you see the sin against Joseph by his brothers being used by God for good, when they purposed it for evil?
Create is an interesting word.... I'd say that God purposes.... thus sin is within His purpose, thus Jesus Came as a man to defeat sin.



i can quote a direct quote from God himself that he created evil, i think its dangerous to not aknowledge he did make it when he said he did. but again everyone is free to their opinion.

Agree that you [and I can].... However the sum of thy word is truth, so I also quoted that there is no evil within God.... so how would you reconcile both of these verses.... one say He created evil, another declare evil is not of Him. Thus there has to be a deeper understanding to his creating evil then.



how does it call out God and evil ? he wrote it, im not calling him out, im looking at what he wrote.

I agree as to what He wrote, but challenge as to what it means.



So please, don't give up and go back and finish reading my 1st reply...

fewarechosen
Jan 12th 2012, 02:48 PM
hello redeemed,

i am going to withdraw from this conversation, it has reached an impass. it is not a personal point of contention but the discussion has wandered way far from logic and reason and what is clearly defined in scripture and i can see it has become about defending doctrine and as such i have no interest in that.

"Be patient with me Fewarechosen... As I stated I am reading from the beginning and haven't seen all the replies yet. Now I would declare that Sin is something within God's will that He uses"

look at your quote above, you declare that then use your declaration to determine what ?
you declare it so its right ?
lots of people declare lots of things

did you not play 6 degrees of biblical bacon with us ?

if the whole world shouts sin is something within Gods will that he uses, i would ask where is scripture ? i head what God declares not man.

i see him creating evil, i see him doing evil, i never see him sin or cause one to sin.

Brother Mark
Jan 12th 2012, 02:49 PM
God made the serpent the wisest animal in the garden on purpose- so that it could tempt Adam and Eve into eating the fruit of knowledge. God wants man to have free will, otherwise He ouwld have made robots to serve Him.

He could have had that without Adam eating the fruit could he not? Adam's choice is no different than ours "Will you love, follow and obey me or not?" I have no problem with God putting the serpent in the garden for testing purposes. I am just not convinced he willed/caused/desired for Adam to eat the fruit. I don't see the Lord God as someone who would willfully sicken his child in order to redeem his child or to save his child or to gain some greater good from his child. I think the sickness was man's doing but didn't change God's ultimate plan one bit but the plan could have been accomplished without the fall or with it, either way.


You could put it like that.

OK. That's really more how I see it.


God's statement to Abraham about his descendants being enslaved doesn't seem to be a prophesy. More like a condition of a covenant?

Here's the problem I have with that. Covenants do have conditions. They have blessings and curses if one keeps or breaks the covenant. But Abraham didn't walk through the animals with God (the walk of death). Instead, a Smoking Oven and a Flaming Torch, walked the walk of death. God made the covenant with Abraham, but he held Himself responsible for fulfilling it. For that particular covenant, I don't see where God required anything from Abraham. This is one reason I don't see it as a condition of the covenant but rather a prophetic word about what would happen, similar to what God did with Abraham concerning Sodom.

Fenris
Jan 12th 2012, 03:00 PM
He could have had that without Adam eating the fruit could he not?Obviously not.


Adam's choice is no different than ours "Will you love, follow and obey me or not?" I'm not sure that is true. Adam did not have true "free will" in the same sense that we did until after he ate.


I have no problem with God putting the serpent in the garden for testing purposes. I am just not convinced he willed/caused/desired for Adam to eat the fruit. Shrug.


I don't see the Lord God as someone who would willfully sicken his child in order to redeem his child or to save his child or to gain some greater good from his child. Ok, let me ask you a question. Why did God have the Jews enslaved in Egypt?






Here's the problem I have with that. Covenants do have conditions. They have blessings and curses if one keeps or breaks the covenant. But Abraham didn't walk through the animals with God (the walk of death). Instead, a Smoking Oven and a Flaming Torch, walked the walk of death. God made the covenant with Abraham, but he held Himself responsible for fulfilling it. For that particular covenant, I don't see where God required anything from Abraham. This is one reason I don't see it as a condition of the covenant but rather a prophetic word about what would happen, similar to what God did with Abraham concerning Sodom.I don't see how it changes anything.

Redeemed by Grace
Jan 12th 2012, 03:14 PM
hello redeemed,

i am going to withdraw from this conversation, it has reached an impass. it is not a personal point of contention but the discussion has wandered way far from logic and reason and what is clearly defined in scripture and i can see it has become about defending doctrine and as such i have no interest in that.

"Be patient with me Fewarechosen... As I stated I am reading from the beginning and haven't seen all the replies yet. Now I would declare that Sin is something within God's will that He uses"

look at your quote above, you declare that then use your declaration to determine what ?
you declare it so its right ?
lots of people declare lots of things

did you not play 6 degrees of biblical bacon with us ?

if the whole world shouts sin is something within Gods will that he uses, i would ask where is scripture ? i head what God declares not man.

i see him creating evil, i see him doing evil, i never see him sin or cause one to sin.

Take care then if you are stopping...

But as you go, God creating evil is a way of saying that God is sovereign in all things, which I agree that evil is not God's equal, nor is evil eternal, only God can declare that He was is and always will be. I don't see God doing evil though, you do, so I differ that a holy and righteous God as doing evil acts... thus being evil.... now before you argue,,, one who lies is a liar... One who steals is a thief... thus one who does evil is thus evil. Evil is from the heart of man, not of God, thus God does not do evil

Brother Mark
Jan 12th 2012, 03:20 PM
Obviously not.

Why not?


I'm not sure that is true. Adam did not have true "free will" in the same sense that we did until after he ate.
Shrug.

Again, why not? Did he not have free will to choose not to eat? Is one's will free only when he chooses to eat? Could Adam not have chosen eaten instead of the Tree of Life and obeyed God?


Ok, let me ask you a question. Why did God have the Jews enslaved in Egypt?

Many reasons, IMO. He had them go to Egypt because the "iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete." Until the people's of Canaan had become so evil God wanted them removed, he was willing to wait.

Another reason, I think he wanted to give hope to enslaved people everywhere that he is a God who delivers! Just as Pharoah would not let Israel go, I too was once in bondage to sin and to the enemy and he would not let me go. But God intervened, I believed Him, and he set me free. People have been encouraged throughout history because of the things God was willing to do for Abraham and Israel because they trusted Him. IMO, spiritual life of every believer is similar to the physical walk of Israel. We are in bondage. We get set free. We have to conquer the land of our heart and all that is in it that is against God. We wonder about in the desert because we don't trust him we don't believe him and we refuse to honor and obey him. We have victory when we are living in purity before him but have defeat when we hide the forbidden things in our own tents.

I know he puts us through difficult times to test us. He did so with Joseph. He did so with David. We've talked about that before. But I am not convinced he wills others to sin so much as he uses the sin they do to further his plans. Why would the nation of Israel be any different than Joseph or David? God tests all those he has great plans for.


I don't see how it changes anything.

Because prophesy is different than requiring something and making it happen.

Eyelog
Jan 12th 2012, 03:45 PM
hello redeemed,

i am going to withdraw from this conversation, it has reached an impass. it is not a personal point of contention but the discussion has wandered way far from logic and reason and what is clearly defined in scripture and i can see it has become about defending doctrine and as such i have no interest in that.

"Be patient with me Fewarechosen... As I stated I am reading from the beginning and haven't seen all the replies yet. Now I would declare that Sin is something within God's will that He uses"

look at your quote above, you declare that then use your declaration to determine what ?
you declare it so its right ?
lots of people declare lots of things

did you not play 6 degrees of biblical bacon with us ?

if the whole world shouts sin is something within Gods will that he uses, i would ask where is scripture ? i head what God declares not man.

i see him creating evil, i see him doing evil, i never see him sin or cause one to sin.

I agree that when we try to tell each other there were not really just 3 wise men, for instance, and we don't know how many, if we grew up believing that was part of the Gospel, we immediately become defensive. We are concerned that others are attempting to corrupt true doctrine, and to introduce heresy. We want to take every thought captive, which makes us want to take the poster captive, and maybe kick him a little bit -- get him to shut up.

However, I have found that at least 85% of the views I have seen expressed on this site are not radical, and have some rational basis in Scripture. It is just that those who have not read the Word with honesty and probed to understand some of the odd things we see in there, are surprised by what others say. This God creates evil thing is one of those topics. The idea God intended the Fall even as He commanded Adam against what caused it seems counter-intuitive. But as we probe and look at the entire counsel of God, we can see, for instance, that God planned the atonement from before the foundation of the earth, well before Adam was created. This proves God foresaw the need for the savior, and ordained His earthly ministry, and did not do so merely just in case, but for a designed plan A purpose. :)

Then, there is the fact in Hebrews that we oughta get our senses trained to discern good from evil. ... thought He didn't want us to know that difference? ... well, now that we blew it, he might as well let us know the whole story -- sort of the argument for why condoms should be distributed in grade school....

No, God intended it all, because no one or thing resists His ultimate will, and He foresaw it. -- He intended the Fall into the knowledge of good and evil, ... for our own good!

I could go on with the context for these things, but we see that any well-worn doctrine which is contrary to the whole counsel of God is indeed on the rocks. We see that truisms about God are on the rocks -- like that God did not create evil.

The arguments here about Him creating evil have focused on that single verse and its contexts. Some of the arguments have discussed reconciling the plain read of the verse with God being 'good' and 'just', etc. But in the end we have to look to see what God's purpose is in making mankind and dealing with Him as He has and does and will. The design or end or teleology of God creating mankind, orchestrating the Fall, giving the promises, giving the Law, giving the Savior, giving the church and its gifts, allowing the persecution of the church and then pouring out His wrath, the millennial kingdom, the bema seat of Christ, the great white throne final judgment, eternity future with a new heaven and earth, a new Jerusalem and translucent gold streets in a giant cube and so on -- it all has to be taken into account, as does every verse of Scripture.

But if we can figure out the reasons why God is doing all this, we then have a sort of Rosetta Stone with which to interpret the many unclear passages and actions of our Lord. What we find, instead, is that we all have certain presuppositions, not only about who God is and His character, but what His purposes are. But who has it right?

God bless this thread, and those who are striving to understand our Lord. He loves it when we seek Him in discovering more and more of His progressively revealed Truth. :)

Fenris
Jan 12th 2012, 04:02 PM
Why not?because God made the serpent clever intentionally.




Again, why not? Wasn't it the "fruit of knowledge"? You mean nothing changed after Adam ate it?


Many reasons, IMO. He had them go to Egypt because the "iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete." Until the people's of Canaan had become so evil God wanted them removed, he was willing to wait.Right, so they had to wait in crushing slavery? he couldn't have them wait at some pleasant oasis or soemthing?


Another reason, I think he wanted to give hope to enslaved people everywhere that he is a God who delivers! So again, he had to crush them in slavery for 400 years?


God tests all those he has great plans for.How was the slavery a 'test'?

We thank God that He took our ancestors out of Egypt. Fine. But wasn't it also God who sent them to Egypt?

What are we really thanking Him for?




Because prophesy is different than requiring something and making it happen.

In either case, it was inevitable. But why.

Brother Mark
Jan 12th 2012, 04:25 PM
because God made the serpent clever intentionally.

But Adam wasn't deceived.


Wasn't it the "fruit of knowledge"? You mean nothing changed after Adam ate it?

I don't think God's purpose for man depended on whether Adam ate the forbidden fruit or not. Did something change? Of course it did! Man changed and the world around him changed. But God's ultimate purpose for man didn't change.


Right, so they had to wait in crushing slavery? he couldn't have them wait at some pleasant oasis or soemthing?
So again, he had to crush them in slavery for 400 years?

Even in the garden man was to be tested. Adam could have said no to his flesh, and endured that kind of pain instead of eating the fruit. When the forbidden fruit was eaten, testing involved more than just saying no to our desires because death, sin, sickness, wickedness, etc. all entered into man's realm. The concept of the cross is even in the garden. The idea of death to have life is found in seeds and they were there. Man was always meant to serve and love God. To do so meant to be dead to one's "carnal desires" and alive to God. The fruit of this kind of relationship was very positive for God and man as can be seen in the writings of David. When God tested Job, there was death and destruction. It didn't have to be this way. Adam could have eaten from the Tree of Life and been given a greater test to say no too, and thus had his character developed without the suffering that we see today. IMO, Enoch is what life could have been like. The 7th from Adam, i.e. a complete Adam, walked with God and was not because God took him. He pleased God. But when Adam ate the fruit, while the plan/purpose of God didn't change, the amount of suffering required to bring it about greatly increased because there is sin, there is suffering. In order to get rid of suffering, God would have to eliminate sin. To eliminate sin, he has to eliminate the sinner. Desiring that all should repent, God is patient and merciful and allows sinners time to repent.

Said another way, the iniquity of the Amorites was not complete and God waited. He waited on Sodom but eventually moved. He waited in Noah's day but eventually had to move. The patience and mercy of God is such that he even allows his own people to suffer so that others may come to know Him.

As for Israel being in bondage, it was because their rose up a Pharoah who did not know Joseph or God. And those are the kind of people that do cruel things!


How was the slavery a 'test'?

I don't know a good answer to that. I do know that Moses was given a choice between the riches of Egypt and the suffering of Israel and he chose God and to suffer with Israel over the riches the "world" had to offer.


We thank God that He took our ancestors out of Egypt. Fine. But wasn't it also God who sent them to Egypt?

Joseph said his brothers meant it for evil but God meant it for good. So yea. God sent them there.


What are we really thanking Him for?

For who He is.


In either case it was inevitable. But why.

I don't know all the reasons of why it was going to happen. But I do know this, God used it as an example. As I wrote above, many of us are enslaved to things that torment and destroy us such as drugs, illicit sex, alcohol, etc. They have power over us because a "king rises up that does not know God" in our hearts, namely ourselves. Like Adam, we desire to be our own God. Like Adam, that ultimately leads to death and slavery. But just as God delivered Israel in their time of bondage and need, so he will deliver us if we will but believe Him.