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t1mlew1s
Jan 16th 2012, 08:12 PM
Hey ya'll. I posted this question in my introduction thread. I guess this is a more appropriate place for it.
I would like some thoughts as to what is meant by this verse. I have always 'leaned' toward the once saved, always saved notion. But I would like your thoughts.

episkopos
Jan 16th 2012, 08:23 PM
Howdy! :)

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You'd think we would have more fear of the Lord when confronted with passages like these.

t1mlew1s
Jan 16th 2012, 08:29 PM
I agree. But is this meant for the believer who 'slides back' into a sinful lifestyle? Or is it meant for those who did believe and then choose to not believe? Falling back into sin woud be less grevious, I would think, than completely turning one's back on God.

John146
Jan 16th 2012, 10:05 PM
I agree. But is this meant for the believer who 'slides back' into a sinful lifestyle? Or is it meant for those who did believe and then choose to not believe? Falling back into sin woud be less grevious, I would think, than completely turning one's back on God.If someone is sinning willfully then aren't they turning their back on God? As Christians we all sin but that doesn't mean we sin in willful disobedience and rebellion against God.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

If we are not consciously making the effort to submit to the Spirit and allowing Him to lead us then we are vulnerable to "the lust of the flesh" which can lead to us not doing the things that we want to do. We don't want to sin but since our flesh is still weak we still do sin if we don't put in the effort to submit to the Spirit and allow Him to help us overcome the desires of our flesh/sin nature. But not doing "the things that ye would" must be different than sinning willfully. It seems to me that sinning willfully means you are consciously rebelling and disobeying God and it's what you want to do. That's obviously a serious problem but Heb 10:26 indicates that it can happen if we're not careful. The author says "if we sin willfully..." so he is including himself in the warning, which means it's a warning for believers.

Butch5
Jan 16th 2012, 10:40 PM
Hey ya'll. I posted this question in my introduction thread. I guess this is a more appropriate place for it.
I would like some thoughts as to what is meant by this verse. I have always 'leaned' toward the once saved, always saved notion. But I would like your thoughts.

Hi t1,

It's talking about Christians turning away from Christ and being lost. OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) is a modern invention that was unknown in the church prior to the Refomation in the 1500."

Butch5
Jan 16th 2012, 10:45 PM
I agree. But is this meant for the believer who 'slides back' into a sinful lifestyle? Or is it meant for those who did believe and then choose to not believe? Falling back into sin woud be less grevious, I would think, than completely turning one's back on God.

Back sliding is hte process of turning away.

Hebrews 3:11-15(KJV)
11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

John146
Jan 16th 2012, 10:48 PM
Back sliding is hte process of turning away.

Hebrews 3:11-15(KJV)
11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.Right. If someone continues back sliding they will eventually fall away and develop "an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God". That passage is a clear warning to believers to be careful to avoid being "hardened through the deceitfulness of sin" and developing "an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God".

Caleb
Jan 16th 2012, 11:26 PM
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Is the writer saying that we won't draw back, or that if any do draw back, though he shall have no pleasure in him, it will not be a drawn back to perdition.

david
Jan 16th 2012, 11:33 PM
I agree. But is this meant for the believer who 'slides back' into a sinful lifestyle? Or is it meant for those who did believe and then choose to not believe? Falling back into sin woud be less grevious, I would think, than completely turning one's back on God.
no one who knows God sins. therefore, it would most definitely be "turning your back on God" if you sinned against him.
"And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, (1John 2:3-4)"

Caleb
Jan 17th 2012, 12:21 AM
Right. If someone continues back sliding they will eventually fall away and develop "an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God". That passage is a clear warning to believers to be careful to avoid being "hardened through the deceitfulness of sin" and developing "an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God".

"That passage is a clear warning to believers"
I might disagree.

Are they unbelieving because they have backslidden?

I don't think that these 'possible' unbelieving have yet truly believed and entered into His rest.

The Jews (natural branches) were already in the olive tree, but were broken off because of unbelief. Is it not probable that there were yet some among these Hebrew brethren, who may were still not truly believing, and they are told to exhort one another while it is called today, or they would as a natural branch be broken off?

Haz
Jan 17th 2012, 12:12 PM
Hi t1,

Heb 10:26 is speaking to those who have received the knowledge of the truth (Christ Jesus) but they suppressed it in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18).
They "sin wilfully" by remaining under the law of sin and death and thereby are judged a transgressor (Gal 2:17-21). They seek to establish their own righteousness and refuse to submit to the righteousness of God (Rom 10:3).

Remember Rom 8:2. "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death"

We should use God's definitions of sin as man's definitons are ambiguous and only cause confusion. In Heb 10:26 the sin it speaks of is transgression of the law (1John3:4).
But the law is not made for Christians (1Tim 1:9). Instead it is made for the ungodly and sinner.

If you believe you are saved by grace then Heb 10:26 does not speak to you.

t1mlew1s
Jan 17th 2012, 01:28 PM
Thank you everyone for these great responses. I am less doubtful than I was before. I am reminded that "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8. And I am reminded that Peter 'willfully' denied Christ three times. I will have to study more about OSAS. Of course, I don't intend to test whether or not it is true! I realize that I will continue to sin, not willfully as before, but when I do, I will seek forgiveness. I think the only way to know for sure if OSAS is true, you would have to die in your sins.

Butch5
Jan 17th 2012, 04:06 PM
Hi t1,

Heb 10:26 is speaking to those who have received the knowledge of the truth (Christ Jesus) but they suppressed it in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18).
They "sin wilfully" by remaining under the law of sin and death and thereby are judged a transgressor (Gal 2:17-21). They seek to establish their own righteousness and refuse to submit to the righteousness of God (Rom 10:3).

Remember Rom 8:2. "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death"

We should use God's definitions of sin as man's definitons are ambiguous and only cause confusion. In Heb 10:26 the sin it speaks of is transgression of the law (1John3:4).
But the law is not made for Christians (1Tim 1:9). Instead it is made for the ungodly and sinner.

If you believe you are saved by grace then Heb 10:26 does not speak to you.

Hi Haz,

Heb. 10:26 is speaking to believing Christians who have been saved by grace.

Butch5
Jan 17th 2012, 04:08 PM
Thank you everyone for these great responses. I am less doubtful than I was before. I am reminded that "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8. And I am reminded that Peter 'willfully' denied Christ three times. I will have to study more about OSAS. Of course, I don't intend to test whether or not it is true! I realize that I will continue to sin, not willfully as before, but when I do, I will seek forgiveness. I think the only way to know for sure if OSAS is true, you would have to die in your sins.

Hi t1,

Here is a well reasoned argument dealing with the OSAS issue. Make sure to read the links on the left also.

http://www.pfrs.org/osas/index.html

Lone Arranger
Jan 17th 2012, 04:10 PM
I will be answering this and all the other challenge versus soon in a long blog. PSB.

John146
Jan 17th 2012, 04:50 PM
"That passage is a clear warning to believers"
I might disagree.

Are they unbelieving because they have backslidden?

I don't think that these 'possible' unbelieving have yet truly believed and entered into His rest.

The Jews (natural branches) were already in the olive tree, but were broken off because of unbelief. Is it not probable that there were yet some among these Hebrew brethren, who may were still not truly believing, and they are told to exhort one another while it is called today, or they would as a natural branch be broken off?I'm not really following you here. The author was speaking to his "brethren". Earlier in the chapter he referred to them like this:

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

He calls them "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling". That looks like a description of believers to me. And the "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" are the ones he was addressing in Heb 3:12-15.

Raybob
Jan 17th 2012, 05:14 PM
Right. If someone continues back sliding they will eventually fall away and develop "an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God". That passage is a clear warning to believers to be careful to avoid being "hardened through the deceitfulness of sin" and developing "an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God".

My wife's brother is a perfect example of this. He 'claimed' to be a born-again Christian, yet never repented from his worldly ways. Three years ago, he was very mad about something, drank a lot of beer, took off on his motorcycle, and crashed it into a tree, went into coma, and died 24 hours later. From what Galations 5 says, He isn't able to enter the kingdom of God, on a few counts at least: "hatred", "variance", "wrath", "drunkenness", "revellings".

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
(Gal 5:20-21)

We can claim to be Christian and even believe we are but God knows our heart. Others can 'see' our heart ('s desire) in our "fruit". If we are part of the vine, we will produce good fruit (good works). If we are not of the vine, our fruit is rotten.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(Mat 7:16-20)

Jemand
Jan 17th 2012, 08:32 PM
My wife's brother is a perfect example of this. He 'claimed' to be a born-again Christian, yet never repented from his worldly ways. Three years ago, he was very mad about something, drank a lot of beer, took off on his motorcycle, and crashed it into a tree, went into coma, and died 24 hours later. From what Galations 5 says, He isn't able to enter the kingdom of God, on a few counts at least: "hatred", "variance", "wrath", "drunkenness", "revellings".

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
(Gal 5:20-21)

We can claim to be Christian and even believe we are but God knows our heart. Others can 'see' our heart ('s desire) in our "fruit". If we are part of the vine, we will produce good fruit (good works). If we are not of the vine, our fruit is rotten.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(Mat 7:16-20)

Heb. 10:19. Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
20. by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21. and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22. let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
24. and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
25. not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
Christ or Judgment
26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

There is no mention in Hebrews 10:19-30 of people who are merely claiming to be saved; this passage speaks only of Christians who are faithful and those are not. Notice especially v. 29,

29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

People who are merely claiming to be saved have not been sanctified by the blood of Christ Jesus. Therefore, we know for a fact from this passage of Scripture that a man who has been both saved and sanctified has the potential of,

trampling under foot the Son of God
regarding as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified
insulting the Spirit of grace.

And for doing these sinful things, the reward is NOT continued salvation; the reward is the VENGEANCE of God.

30. For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.”

31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Up until the 16th century, this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Are we to suppose that the men whom it pleased God to use to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity and to establish the New Testament Canon were such poor readers that they were unable to understand what the Bible teaches about salvation?


(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)

Raybob
Jan 17th 2012, 08:39 PM
There is no mention in Hebrews 10:19-30 of people who are merely claiming to be saved; this passage speaks only of Christians who are faithful and those are not. Notice especially v. 29, ..

Unfaithful Christian? That's an oxymoron. Quite impossible. Christians are saved 'by' faith. If they had no faith, they have no salvation in Christ.

Bandit
Jan 17th 2012, 08:45 PM
Unfaithful Christian? That's an oxymoron. Quite impossible. Christians are saved 'by' faith. If they had no faith, they have no salvation in Christ.

It really is kind of hard to argue with that, though I am sure many will.

Jemand
Jan 17th 2012, 09:46 PM
Unfaithful Christian? That's an oxymoron. Quite impossible. Christians are saved 'by' faith. If they had no faith, they have no salvation in Christ.

Matt. 24:1313. "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”

Luke 22:31. "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
32. but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

Acts 14:21. After they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch,
22. strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, "Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God."

Colossians 21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

1 Timothy 1:18. This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight,
19. keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
20. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme. (NASB, 1995)

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)

Haz
Jan 17th 2012, 10:37 PM
Hi Haz,

Heb. 10:26 is speaking to believing Christians who have been saved by grace.

Hi,

Maybe you misunderstood me.
Heb 10:26 includes Christians who turn back to the law. The Galatians were warned against this path. They begun in the Spirit but then sought to be made perfect by the flesh (Gal 3). So if someone starts out as a Christian but then rebuilds the law in their lives to establish their own righteousness (Gal 2:18) then they make themselves a transgressor (sinner). To continue on this path is wilful sin after having the knowledge of the truth.

As I said before, if you continue to believe you are saved by grace then 10:26 does not apply to you.

blessings

Butch5
Jan 17th 2012, 11:38 PM
Hi,

Maybe you misunderstood me.
Heb 10:26 includes Christians who turn back to the law. The Galatians were warned against this path. They begun in the Spirit but then sought to be made perfect by the flesh (Gal 3). So if someone starts out as a Christian but then rebuilds the law in their lives to establish their own righteousness (Gal 2:18) then they make themselves a transgressor (sinner). To continue on this path is wilful sin after having the knowledge of the truth.

As I said before, if you continue to believe you are saved by grace then 10:26 does not apply to you.

blessings

Gotcha, sorry for the misunderstanding.

t1mlew1s
Jan 18th 2012, 02:44 PM
From Butch5
http://www.pfrs.org/osas/index.html

This is a great tool. Loads of information here. I plan on sharing this with some friends. Thank you.

Butch5
Jan 18th 2012, 04:59 PM
From Butch5

This is a great tool. Loads of information here. I plan on sharing this with some friends. Thank you.

You're welcome my friend.

Raybob
Jan 18th 2012, 08:02 PM
Matt. 24:1313. "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”

Luke 22:31. "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
32. but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

Acts 14:21. After they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch,
22. strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, "Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God."

Colossians 21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

1 Timothy 1:18. This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight,
19. keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
20. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme. (NASB, 1995)

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)

AMEN. God knows only the true Christians are the ones who endure to the end. He never really knew all the others.

Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
(Luk 13:26-28)

John146
Jan 18th 2012, 08:20 PM
AMEN. God knows only the true Christians are the ones who endure to the end. He never really knew all the others.

Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
(Luk 13:26-28)But in the following passage true Christians are being warned about keeping their faith to the end rather than developing "an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God".

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

We know this is a warning given to Christians because it speaks of the possibility of "departing from the living God". How can someone depart from God if they don't have a relationship with Him in the first place? Also, notice that he talks about the necessity of holding "the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end". How can one "hold the beginning of" their "confidence stedfast unto the end" if they don't have confidence/faith in the first place?

Raybob
Jan 18th 2012, 08:38 PM
But in the following passage true Christians are being warned about keeping their faith to the end rather than developing "an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God".

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

We know this is a warning given to Christians because it speaks of the possibility of "departing from the living God". How can someone depart from God if they don't have a relationship with Him in the first place? Also, notice that he talks about the necessity of holding "the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end". How can one "hold the beginning of" their "confidence stedfast unto the end" if they don't have confidence/faith in the first place?

Yes, he was addressing "Christians" but I had been speaking of "true Christians". The key to what is said is " lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief." Just like you can't say any nation is a 100% "Christian" nation, you can't really say any "church" is all 100% Christian. Before, I was speaking of "True Christians".

There are many pretenders in most groups of people that say they are Christian. I was one in the past. I first learned about Jesus in '82, gave my heart and life to Him, yet soon after, 'fell away' into living for self again, because I was being led away from the cult-ish fellowship I was in. I fell away, then studied bible more, then came back but giving 100% of me to Him that time, in '96. Before, I was probably 50/50, not 100%, because in my life, most things I did to please Him, but in some ways, I still lived for 'me', not yielding to Jesus totally. I was not 100% living for Him. The seed had fallen on the rocky ground of my heart, I fell, then years later, God softened my soil, so to speak.

Saved7
Jan 18th 2012, 08:47 PM
You may want to check out this thread, it's got a lot of good information that will help answer your question on that same subject. It's called, "Unintentional vs. intentional sin", and here's the link.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/234587-Unintentional-vs-intentional-sin-Num-15

John146
Jan 18th 2012, 09:36 PM
Yes, he was addressing "Christians" but I had been speaking of "true Christians".There are no fake Christians or true Christians. There are just Christians. A person is either a Christian or they are not. There are people who think they are Christians but are not. They are not Christians in any sense. A person is either for Christ or against Him (Matt 12:30) so they are either a Christian or they are not.


The key to what is said is " lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief." Just like you can't say any nation is a 100% "Christian" nation, you can't really say any "church" is all 100% Christian. Before, I was speaking of "True Christians". I am saying he was addressing what you are calling true Christians for the reasons I stated. Can a non-true Christian "hold the beginning of" their "confidence stedfast unto the end" if they don't have confidence/faith in the first place? If they do have confidence/faith in Christ then doesn't that mean they are what you call true Christians?


There are many pretenders in most groups of people that say they are Christian. I was one in the past. I first learned about Jesus in '82, gave my heart and life to Him, yet soon after, 'fell away' into living for self again, because I was being led away from the cult-ish fellowship I was in. I fell away, then studied bible more, then came back but giving 100% of me to Him that time, in '96. Before, I was probably 50/50, not 100%, because in my life, most things I did to please Him, but in some ways, I still lived for 'me', not yielding to Jesus totally. I was not 100% living for Him. The seed had fallen on the rocky ground of my heart, I fell, then years later, God softened my soil, so to speak.I understand all of that, but I don't believe what you're talking about here has anything to do with what Heb 3:12-14 is about. It seems clear to me that he is addressing what you call true Christians in that passage because in order to "hold the beginning of" their "confidence stedfast unto the end" they'd need to have confidence/faith in Christ in the first place.

Raybob
Jan 18th 2012, 10:14 PM
There are no fake Christians or true Christians. There are just Christians. A person is either a Christian or they are not. There are people who think they are Christians but are not. They are not Christians in any sense. A person is either for Christ or against Him (Matt 12:30) so they are either a Christian or they are not.

I am saying he was addressing what you are calling true Christians for the reasons I stated. Can a non-true Christian "hold the beginning of" their "confidence stedfast unto the end" if they don't have confidence/faith in the first place? If they do have confidence/faith in Christ then doesn't that mean they are what you call true Christians?

I understand all of that, but I don't believe what you're talking about here has anything to do with what Heb 3:12-14 is about. It seems clear to me that he is addressing what you call true Christians in that passage because in order to "hold the beginning of" their "confidence stedfast unto the end" they'd need to have confidence/faith in Christ in the first place.

Just curious. When in Luke 13:27, and Matt 7:23, Jesus spoke of "ye workers of iniquity", was He speaking about Christians?

John146
Jan 18th 2012, 10:20 PM
Just curious. When in Luke 13:27, and Matt 7:23, Jesus addressed "ye workers of iniquity", was He speaking about Christians?No. Christians would not be described that way. He tells them He never knew them so they were not Christians and never were Christians. He is speaking specifically to people who thought they could earn salvation by their own righteousness, which is not the case. But what does this have to do with Heb 3:12-14 or Heb 10:26? Can you give me your thoughts on what I said in my previous post (#30)?

Raybob
Jan 18th 2012, 10:33 PM
No. Christians would not be described that way. He tells them He never knew them so they were not Christians and never were Christians. He is speaking specifically to people who thought they could earn salvation by their own righteousness, which is not the case. But what does this have to do with Heb 3:12-14 or Heb 10:26? Maybe a better word for me to use than "Christian" is "the church", which would include thise that never wore Christians. Our Hebrew references apply to the same 'church'.


Can you give me your thoughts on what I said in my previous post (#30)?
I don't know that we can assume he was speaking to only "Christians" at the time, but also was speaking to many "Christian wanna bees, or 'carnal Christians', or those that say they are but are not.

mailmandan
Jan 19th 2012, 01:04 PM
But in the following passage true Christians are being warned about keeping their faith to the end rather than developing "an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God".

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

We know this is a warning given to Christians because it speaks of the possibility of "departing from the living God". How can someone depart from God if they don't have a relationship with Him in the first place? Also, notice that he talks about the necessity of holding "the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end". How can one "hold the beginning of" their "confidence stedfast unto the end" if they don't have confidence/faith in the first place?

In Hebrews 3:14, we read: For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. The wording of this verse is not - "and you will be saved (future indicative) if you (future indicative) persevere." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, really saved, if in the future you hold fast to Christ." Future perseverance would be proof of genuine conversion. Not holding our confidence stedfast unto the end indicates a flaw in our confidence from the start. Anyone can profess to have confidence and be a Christian, but failing to hold that confidence stedfast unto the end proves otherwise.

In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read: For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have BELIEVED do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between "us" who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and "them" who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

Departing from God would be a manifestation of unbelief. If someone is still in the process of becoming a partaker of Christ and are among genuine believers and have received the knowledge of the truth and are still in the process of considering the truth, but then decide to draw back to perdition instead of believing to the saving of the soul, didn't this person still turn away and depart from God? God revealed Himself to them through the truth, yet they turned away from Him. You can't turn away from the truth if you have not yet heard or had the chance to consider the truth, but that does not mean that you have to fully accept it before you can turn away from it. If I decide to walk across the Brooklyn bridge and I walk right up to it without stepping onto it, but then turn and walk away from it, does that mean I didn't turn away and depart from the bridge just because I wasn't actually on the bridge?

Caleb
Jan 19th 2012, 02:38 PM
I'm not really following you here. The author was speaking to his "brethren". Earlier in the chapter he referred to them like this:

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

He calls them "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling". That looks like a description of believers to me. And the "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" are the ones he was addressing in Heb 3:12-15.

In the main, yes he was speaking to all the Hebrew brethren, but he then says that ‘if there be any among you with an unbelieving heart’

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

For the Hebrews, partakers in the heavenly calling was theirs to lose by birth right, but for the Gentiles it was theirs to gain.

Like Esau, the inheritance to come was theirs (the Hebrews) by birth right, but for those branches that did not believe, they were broken off.

Uncle Bud
Jan 19th 2012, 02:59 PM
At first glance, there appears to be multiple unpardonable sins, not just one like Jesus said. King Saul and Esau being other examples. In Esau's case, Paul wasn't referring specificallt to selling the birthright as an unpardonable sin, but whatever one the Hebrews were in danger of in 12:16-17.

John146
Jan 19th 2012, 06:18 PM
I don't know that we can assume he was speaking to only "Christians" at the time, but also was speaking to many "Christian wanna bees, or 'carnal Christians', or those that say they are but are not.The term "Christian" applies to anyone who is saved and follows Christ so I'm not sure why you have to make the term so mysterious and complicated. If I use the term you can assume I'm talking about someone who is saved, okay? Do you think the "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" could include Christian wannabes? That seems like a description of people who truly are Christians to me.

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

If you're going to claim that some of those he was addressing weren't actually Christians then I'd like to see some evidence to back that up.

John146
Jan 19th 2012, 06:25 PM
In Hebrews 3:14, we read: For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. The wording of this verse is not - "and you will be saved (future indicative) if you (future indicative) persevere." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, really saved, if in the future you hold fast to Christ." Future perseverance would be proof of genuine conversion. Not holding our confidence stedfast unto the end indicates a flaw in our confidence from the start. Anyone can profess to have confidence and be a Christian, but failing to hold that confidence stedfast unto the end proves otherwise. I disagree. I believe it is saying that you must maintain the confident/faith in Christ that you have now unto the end in order to be a partaker of Christ in the end. I believe the passage implies that this is no guarantee because it speaks of the possibility of departing from God. In order to depart from God you need to have a relationship with Him first.


In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read: For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have BELIEVED do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between "us" who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and "them" who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF. In Heb 3:14 I believe he was talking about people who actually did believe at the time and he was saying that they must continue to believe unto the end. Where is the scripture that says if you believe now then you are guaranteed to continue believing unto the end?


Departing from God would be a manifestation of unbelief. If someone is still in the process of becoming a partaker of Christ and are among genuine believers and have received the knowledge of the truth and are still in the process of considering the truth, but then decide to draw back to perdition instead of believing to the saving of the soul, didn't this person still turn away and depart from God?I suppose that could be one way of someone not being saved and still departing from God but I don't believe that fits the context of Heb 3:12-14. What is see there is a warning given to people who believe that they need to continue believing unto the end and be careful about developing an evil heart of unbelief and departing from the living God. I see that passage as being quite similar to Heb 6:4-6. Do you think Heb 6:4 is not describing Christians?

John146
Jan 19th 2012, 06:31 PM
In the main, yes he was speaking to all the Hebrew brethren, but he then says that ‘if there be any among you with an unbelieving heart’That doesn't mean they always had an unbelieving heart. If they did then why would it speak of them departing from the living God? How can they depart from Him if they didn't have any kind of relationship with Him in the first place?


Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

For the Hebrews, partakers in the heavenly calling was theirs to lose by birth right, but for the Gentiles it was theirs to gain.

Like Esau, the inheritance to come was theirs (the Hebrews) by birth right, but for those branches that did not believe, they were broken off.I don't think that's the context of Heb 3:1. In that verse he calls them "holy brethren". Who else but believers would be called "holy"? I would say those who were partakers in the heavenly calling would be the same as those who are described here:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

I don't see how this could be describing anyone but believers. I believe Heb 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6 and Heb 10:26-27 are all similar to each other and each give warnings to believers.

mailmandan
Jan 20th 2012, 12:58 PM
I disagree. I believe it is saying that you must maintain the confident/faith in Christ that you have now unto the end in order to be a partaker of Christ in the end.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The point is that not all Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah. And of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held onto their original boldness, confidence, and boasting in Messiah as their salvation firm until the end. These faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.


In Heb 3:14 I believe he was talking about people who actually did believe at the time and he was saying that they must continue to believe unto the end. Where is the scripture that says if you believe now then you are guaranteed to continue believing unto the end?

I believe that future perseverance would be proof of genuine conversion. A superficial faith that has no root would fail to persevere. In a large group of professing believers it's not hard to find counterfeits. In Ephesians 1:13-14, we read: In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 4:30 says that we are sealed in Him unto the day of redemption. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 reads: Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 1 Corinthians 1:8 says: who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. Where does the Bible say that we can become UN-sealed by the Holy Spirit or "lose our salvation"? If a genuine believer can stop believing and lose their salvation, then why confirm us to the end, preserve us forever and guarantee our inheritance?


I suppose that could be one way of someone not being saved and still departing from God but I don't believe that fits the context of Heb 3:12-14. What is see there is a warning given to people who believe that they need to continue believing unto the end and be careful about developing an evil heart of unbelief and departing from the living God.

An evil heart of unbelief falls short of genuine belief. Notice in Hebrews 10:39, But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition. Hebrews 3:12 - lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Those who depart are manifesting an evil heart of unbelief and demonstrate that they have not become partakers of Christ. Those who hold the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end are manifesting their faith and demonstrate that they have become partakers of Christ.


I see that passage as being quite similar to Heb 6:4-6. Do you think Heb 6:4 is not describing Christians?

Replace the word enlightened in verse 4 with "saved" or "born again" and we would know for sure that it was describing Christians. The arguments for this passage are, 1. Saved person fell away and lost their salvation 2. The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: "IF a Christian were to fall away" it would be impossible to renew them to repentance. The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) 3. The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith. The argument for "once enlightened" does not necessarily mean these people were saved. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. This interpretation also sees the phrase "tasted the heavenly gift" (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ "tasting" death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation, but receiving the knowledge of the truth, but then rejecting it. This interpretation also see's the "falling away" (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given." This arguments concludes with greater evidence of the fact that these people were not saved is given in verse 9. Things change in this verse, for now He is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that accompany SALVATION. In other words, the people he was talking about in verses 4-8 didn’t have salvation (and their open rejection testifies to this as well). There is a quickening short of regeneration. In other words, this passage speaks of the work of the Holy Spirit within the lives of these people that occurs before and leading up to salvation. But these people do not receive salvation, and openly rejecting it, they go back to the mud even if for a while they looked like the real thing. Judas Iscariot was an extreme example of this. He knew all there was to know having followed Jesus for three years. He had experienced the Holy Spirit’s power having been among the twelve sent out, two by two, to cast out demons and heal the sick. Yet he was never truly saved (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11). A genuine believer is not an unclean devil.

John146
Jan 20th 2012, 05:46 PM
Replace the word enlightened in verse 4 with "saved" or "born again" and we would know for sure that it was describing Christians. The arguments for this passage are, 1. Saved person fell away and lost their salvation 2. The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: "IF a Christian were to fall away" it would be impossible to renew them to repentance. The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) 3. The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith. The argument for "once enlightened" does not necessarily mean these people were saved. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. This interpretation also sees the phrase "tasted the heavenly gift" (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ "tasting" death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation, but receiving the knowledge of the truth, but then rejecting it. This interpretation also see's the "falling away" (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given." This arguments concludes with greater evidence of the fact that these people were not saved is given in verse 9. Things change in this verse, for now He is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that accompany SALVATION. In other words, the people he was talking about in verses 4-8 didn’t have salvation (and their open rejection testifies to this as well). There is a quickening short of regeneration. In other words, this passage speaks of the work of the Holy Spirit within the lives of these people that occurs before and leading up to salvation. But these people do not receive salvation, and openly rejecting it, they go back to the mud even if for a while they looked like the real thing. Judas Iscariot was an extreme example of this. He knew all there was to know having followed Jesus for three years. He had experienced the Holy Spirit’s power having been among the twelve sent out, two by two, to cast out demons and heal the sick. Yet he was never truly saved (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11). A genuine believer is not an unclean devil.I appreciate the time you took to share your thought but I still disagree. Notice in Heb 6:4-6 that it says it would be impossible for someone who has fallen away "to renew them again unto repentance". In order to renew someone "again unto repentance" it seems to me that they would have had to have repented in the first place. And I just don't see Heb 6:4 as describing anyone but a Christian. I don't see how anyone but a Christian could be a partaker of the Holy Spirit. Can anyone but a Christian be a partaker of Christ (Heb 3:14)? I would say definitely not so if not then then how can a non-Christian be a partaker of the Holy Spirit?

mailmandan
Jan 21st 2012, 01:13 PM
I appreciate the time you took to share your thought but I still disagree. Notice in Heb 6:4-6 that it says it would be impossible for someone who has fallen away "to renew them again unto repentance". In order to renew someone "again unto repentance" it seems to me that they would have had to have repented in the first place. And I just don't see Heb 6:4 as describing anyone but a Christian. I don't see how anyone but a Christian could be a partaker of the Holy Spirit. Can anyone but a Christian be a partaker of Christ (Heb 3:14)? I would say definitely not so if not then then how can a non-Christian be a partaker of the Holy Spirit?

As we’ve seen, the Book of Hebrews was written to a group of Jewish believers in Christ (which not everyone in the group was necessarily a genuine believer) who were tempted under the threat of persecution to return to Judaism. The author is arguing for the superiority of the person and work of Jesus Christ. To abandon Christ for the old Jewish system is to turn from God’s supreme and final provision in His Son to that which is inferior.

The view which holds to the author is speaking of those who are associated with the church and its blessings, but are not truly saved, says that the people described in Heb 6:4-6 are in the Hebrew church and appear to be saved. But at some point, usually a crisis, their true colors come through. They repudiate their faith in Christ, go back either to Judaism or to the world, and side with those who crucified the Son of God. In so doing, they put Christ to open shame. There are many other biblical texts that talk about insincere repentance. Balaam seemingly repented when the angel confronted him, but it was not a repentance unto salvation (Nu 22:34; 31:16; compare 2Pe 2:15-note; Jude 11). Judas felt remorse for betraying Jesus and even returned the silver, but his “repentance” was not unto salvation (Mt 27:3, 4, 5). Peter condemned the apostates who, “after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them” (2Pe 2:20-note, 2Pe 2:21-note).

To fall away here means deliberately to reject and repudiate the substantial light that they have been given about Christ and the gospel. In so doing, repentance becomes impossible. It is morally impossible because by this deliberate rejection of the truth, they harden their hearts and place themselves beyond repentance. Thus we can sum up the main idea of our text:

Repentance becomes impossible when a person has been fully exposed to the blessings of God’s people, but falls away through deliberate unbelief and denial of Christ.

After knowing and being convinced of the truth, they willfully reject it. We can repent "change our mind" enough to be convicted of and know the truth, but if we reject it, this would not be repentance unto life. Renew them once again unto salvation would be a definitive statement.

Partakers (3353) (metochos from metecho = have with, describing participation with another in common blessings) describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an enterprise or undertaking. It speaks of those who are participators in something. Business partner, companion. Participating in. Accomplice in. Comrade.

Metochos is used 6 times in the NT...

Luke 5:7 and they signaled to their partners in the other boat, for them to come and help them. And they came, and filled both of the boats, so that they began to sink.

Hebrews 1:9 "Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee With the oil of gladness above Thy companions."

Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession.

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end;

Hebrews 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Hebrews 12:8 (note) But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews in the context of believers (Hebrews 3:1 "holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling,"; Hebrews 3:14 "For we have become partakers of Christ") and thus the statement that the readers have been made sharers of the Holy Spirit seems at first glance to be strong support that true believers are being addressed. Paul’s admonition in (Romans 8:9 - see note) that “If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ” identifies the indwelling presence of the Spirit as the seal of a regenerated life.

But there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the indwelling of believers. It is very plausible to envision an individual becoming a sharer in or partaker of the Spirit (and his pre-salvation ministry - e.g., convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment to come) by responding for a time to His drawing power intended to lead sinners to Christ. The translation “shared” implies something done in company with others and before salvation all believers shared in the convicting ministry of the Spirit Who drew them to salvation.

Note what Hebrews 6:4-8 does not say. There are no definitive terms which uniquely describe salvation. In other words there are no terms that can only be used to describe a saved person -- justification, regeneration, new creature in Christ, etc. Stated another way "those who...them...those" (Group 2) are not spoken of as born again, or accounted as righteous. On the other hand, none of the descriptions of Group 2 is ever used elsewhere in NT as a definite synonym for a saved person. And this even includes "partakers of the Holy Spirit". Now if he had stated something like they are "those who possess the seal of the Spirit" or "those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit", etc, then we would know beyond a shadow of doubt that he was describing genuine believers.

Are there any examples of "Group 2" individuals seen anywhere in Scripture? Clearly, the answer is yes, the prime example being Judas Iscariot, who even his fellow disciples did not suspect. Was Judas not enlightened? Absolutely, for he traveled for 3 years in the company of the very One Who described Himself as the Light of the World (John 8:12). Judas Iscariot was like "those who" were not in darkness concerning the way of salvation. He had been enlightened but he rejected the light and he gave the Son of God over to be crucified by evil men (compare verse 6 "...since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.")

Wall
Jan 21st 2012, 11:57 PM
I agree. But is this meant for the believer who 'slides back' into a sinful lifestyle? Or is it meant for those who did believe and then choose to not believe? Falling back into sin woud be less grevious, I would think, than completely turning one's back on God.

Hello to all 4 of yas.

ZEPH. 1 [3] I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the Lord. [4] I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests; [5] And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the Lord, and that swear by Malcham; [6] And THEM THAT ARE TURNED BACK FROM THE LORD; AND THOSE THAT HAVE NOT SOUGHT THE LORD, nor enquired for him. [7] Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God: for the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

Seems to be no difference. Those who have turned their back to the Lord? Doesnt that imply that they once claimed they believed in the Lord, then turned their back to Him? They recieve the same as one that never sought the Lord.

Butch5
Jan 22nd 2012, 03:29 AM
I appreciate the time you took to share your thought but I still disagree. Notice in Heb 6:4-6 that it says it would be impossible for someone who has fallen away "to renew them again unto repentance". In order to renew someone "again unto repentance" it seems to me that they would have had to have repented in the first place. And I just don't see Heb 6:4 as describing anyone but a Christian. I don't see how anyone but a Christian could be a partaker of the Holy Spirit. Can anyone but a Christian be a partaker of Christ (Heb 3:14)? I would say definitely not so if not then then how can a non-Christian be a partaker of the Holy Spirit?

Hi Eric,

There is not doubt that these were Christians. Paul also makes that abundantly clear when he says,
Hebrews 5:12(KJV)
12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Surely Paul is not telling unbelievers they ought to be teachers in the church.

mailmandan
Jan 22nd 2012, 01:03 PM
Hebrews 10:26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21 not the righteous, who have been born of God - 1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9.


Notice especially v. 29, How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in v. 29 seems to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is a term often applied to Christians; it is the verb form of the adjective "holy") really just means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation. In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it several times to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "made holy" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" and from other non-Christians and sinful things without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant salvation, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with scripture.

In v. 39, the author sets up the contrast that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition. So after considering the context, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of believers, but who has subsequently committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and by repudiating the work and the person of Christ himself. Such a person’s apostasy is thus evidence that his identification with the Christian community was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.


Up until the 16th century, this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Are we to suppose that the men whom it pleased God to use to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity and to establish the New Testament Canon were such poor readers that they were unable to understand what the Bible teaches about salvation?

This was "universally" interpreted? Did the entire body of Christ worldwide come together and 100% of them agreed on this? So NOBODY before the 16th century taught eternal security of the believer? I've heard this same argument from the Roman Catholic church, which teaches all kinds of error, so I can't base my decision on this type of logic. The Roman Catholic church also wants you to believe that prior to the 16th century, nobody taught salvation through faith in Christ alone. Yet we read otherwise:

Clement of Rome: "We also, being called through God's will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith" (Epistle to Corinthians).

Polycarp: "I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).

Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."
Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."

Chrysostom: "Again, they said that he who adhered to Faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to Faith alone, is blessed."

Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God."

Augustine: "Grace is given to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."

"Now, having duly considered and weighed all these circumstances and testimonies, we conclude that a man is not justified by the precepts of a holy life, but by faith in Jesus Christ,--in a word, not by the law of works, but by the law of faith; not by the letter, but by the spirit; not by the merits of deeds, but by free grace."

glad4mercy
Feb 9th 2012, 03:12 PM
Thank you everyone for these great responses. I am less doubtful than I was before. I am reminded that "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8. And I am reminded that Peter 'willfully' denied Christ three times. I will have to study more about OSAS. Of course, I don't intend to test whether or not it is true! I realize that I will continue to sin, not willfully as before, but when I do, I will seek forgiveness. I think the only way to know for sure if OSAS is true, you would have to die in your sins.

Hey, brother! I do not believe in OSAS, but I do believe in the security of the believer, ie if we abide in Christ through living faith, He preserves us. Of ourselves, we are prone to wander, that's why we need to stay near to Him in prayer and study and meditation on His Word, in the fellowship of other believers, etc. We must not lose heart when we go through trials, and we must not let the cares and pleasures of this world cause us to become unfruitful. Faith is not a one and done thing. It is a daily need.

1 John 5: 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

God Bless

RollTide21
Feb 9th 2012, 05:11 PM
If a person, in humility and with a contrite heart, has received Christ fully and with complete surrender, He will respond in kind with Grace, strength, and Faithfulness to overcome. The one who has submitted themselves to Christ in this way will NOT be overcome. An example is "Blandina" from Foxe's Book Of Martyrs. She is described as "A Christian lady with a weak constitution":

A.D. 162

"Blandina, on the day when she and the three other champions were first
brought into the amphitheater, she was suspended on a piece of wood fixed in the ground, and exposed as
food for the wild beasts; at which time, by her earnest prayers, she encouraged others. But none of the wild
beasts would touch her, so that she was remanded to prison. When she was again produced for the third and
last time, she was accompanied by Ponticus, a youth of fifteen, and the constancy of their faith so enraged
the multitude that neither the sex of the one nor the youth of the other were respected, being exposed to all
manner of punishments and tortures. Being strengthened by Blandina, he persevered unto death; and she,
after enduring all the torments heretofore mentioned, was at length slain with the sword."

Unwillingness to surrender and to offer our entire lives in sacrifice results in:

A.D. 249

"Nichomachus, being brought before the proconsul as a Christian, was ordered to sacrifice to the pagan idols.
Nichomachus replied, "I cannot pay that respect to devils, which is only due to the Almighty." This speech
so much enraged the proconsul that Nichomachus was put to the rack. After enduring the torments for a time,
he recanted; but scarcely had he given this proof of his frailty, than he fell into the greatest agonies, dropped
down on the ground, and expired immediately."

keyzer soze
Feb 9th 2012, 08:13 PM
1 john 2:5 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.