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Jemand
Jan 29th 2012, 07:55 PM
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—who are they?

ewq1938
Jan 29th 2012, 09:36 PM
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—who are they?

The Father is the God and Father of Jesus Christ:

Eph_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:



The Son is the literal only begotten son of God the Father:

Joh_3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



The Holy Spirit is the actual, personal spirit of God the Father:

Mat_10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

markedward
Jan 30th 2012, 04:56 AM
The Father is Yahweh, the one true God.

The Son of God is Jesus, Yahweh as a man.

The holy spirit is the spirit of Yahweh.

notuptome
Jan 30th 2012, 03:58 PM
They are all the One God Who is God. Beside Him there is no other.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jemand
Jan 30th 2012, 05:49 PM
The Father is Yahweh, the one true God.

The Son of God is Jesus, Yahweh as a man.

The holy spirit is the spirit of Yahweh.

Who, then, is the Spirit of Christ?

1 Peter 1:10. As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11. seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. (NASB, 1995)

Romans 8:9. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (NASB, 1995)

keck553
Jan 30th 2012, 05:52 PM
Who, then, is the Spirit of Christ?

1 Peter 1:10. As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11. seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. (NASB, 1995)

Romans 8:9. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (NASB, 1995)

The spirit of God.

markedward
Jan 30th 2012, 05:52 PM
The Christ is Jesus, Yahweh as a man. The spirit of the Christ is the spirit of Yahweh.

Jemand
Jan 30th 2012, 06:46 PM
The Christ is Jesus, Yahweh as a man. The spirit of the Christ is the spirit of Yahweh.

In 1 Peter 1:10, we read of the “Spirit of Christ” indwelling people long before the incarnation of Jesus the man. In Roman 8:9, we read of both the “Spirit of God” and the “Spirit of Christ.”

keck553
Jan 30th 2012, 06:50 PM
In 1 Peter 1:10, we read of the “Spirit of Christ” indwelling people long before the incarnation of Jesus the man. In Roman 8:9, we read of both the “Spirit of God” and the “Spirit of Christ.”

We don't read 'both' - we read "the Spirit of God" and in another author's book "the Spirit of Christ." Both authors are speaking to the same Holy Spirit; God is one.

markedward
Jan 30th 2012, 07:28 PM
In 1 Peter 1:10, we read of the “Spirit of Christ” indwelling people long before the incarnation of Jesus the man. In Roman 8:9, we read of both the “Spirit of God” and the “Spirit of Christ.”They refer to the same thing. Paul is using the two phrases interchangeably.

ewq1938
Jan 30th 2012, 09:30 PM
Who, then, is the Spirit of Christ?

That's like me asking who your spirit is Jemand.

ewq1938
Jan 30th 2012, 09:32 PM
They refer to the same thing. Paul is using the two phrases interchangeably.


Christ has a spirit and a soul, the Father has a spirit and a soul. They are not the same things.

markedward
Jan 30th 2012, 09:51 PM
Not looking for a debate, but I will say this: I adamantly disagree with your literalization of anthropomorphic language that is used of God; it effectively turns God and Jesus into two entirely separate entities (i.e. bitheism). Maybe you don't see it that way. I do.

So, address your points to the OP's questions, not to me, please.

keck553
Jan 30th 2012, 11:45 PM
Christ has a spirit and a soul, the Father has a spirit and a soul. They are not the same things.

Yes they are .

ewq1938
Jan 31st 2012, 12:06 AM
Not looking for a debate, but I will say this: I adamantly disagree with your literalization of
anthropomorphic language that is used of God; it effectively turns God and Jesus into two entirely separate entities (i.e. bitheism). Maybe you don't see it that way. I do.



The language is not anthropomorphic. The scriptures say the Father has a form and that people have seen his form.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping
thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The word "likeness" here is demu^th meaning resemblance, or shape.

H1823
??????
demu^th
dem-ooth'
From H1819; resemblance; concretely model, shape; adverbially like: - fashion, like (-ness, as), manner, similitude.


So, if our physical image is after God's then we should not be surprised that the Father also has a body, as does his Son and Angels etc.



Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:


Here we see the same exact words and wording. The meaning is exactly the same: someone who physically resembled their parent.


Gill


man being the principal part of the creation, and for the sake of whom the world, and all things in it were made, and which being finished, he is introduced into it as into an house ready prepared and furnished for him; a consultation is held among the divine Persons about the formation of him; not because of any difficulty attending it, but as expressive of his honour and dignity; it being proposed he should be made not in the likeness of any of the creatures already made, but as near as could be in the likeness and image of God.


Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image,.... Which consisted both in the form of his body, and the erect stature of it, different from all other creatures



Here are some scriptures which show that the Father does have hands and arms and a head and hair....and....well you get the idea...he is not a spirit according to what Christ said, "a spirit hath not flesh and bones"

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have hair or clothes, but the Father does.

Clarke:


The Ancient of days - God Almighty; and this is the only place in the sacred writings where God the Father is represented in a human form.


Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have hands, but the Father does.


See, there is this view, as seen in the above scriptures and then there is another view that holds the Father is nothing more than "a bodiless spirit". This view would then suggest when we stand before God in heaven, there's only going to be one person there who is God. In my opinion this view of God is inaccurate and contradicts a great deal of scriptures.

I fully believe Jesus will be there as well as his Father and we will see the both of them just as we see in the above scriptures.

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Here Jacob not only wrestles with God physically, he also was allowed to see His face and live.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't arms and hands and a face and certainly couldn't physically wrestle a human being, but the Father does and did.

Gill:


though he had wrestled with one so vastly superior to himself, who could have easily crushed this worm Jacob to pieces, as he is sometimes called; and though he had had such a sight of God as face to faces referring, as is thought, to a notion that obtained early, even among good men, that upon sight of God a man instantly died; though we have no example of that kind: but perhaps he observed this for his encouragement; that whereas he had met with God himself, and wrestled with him in the form of a man, and yet was preserved, he doubted not that, when he should meet with his brother and debate matters with him, he should be safe and unhurt.


(note: M.H. here believe this is Jesus Christ not the Father but the basic concept is still the same, God in a physical form. I believe it was the Father.)

Mathew Henry:


This was doubtless the Lord Jesus Christ, who, among the patriarchs, assumed that human form, which in the fullness of time he really took of a woman, and in which he dwelt thirty-three years among men. He is here styled an angel, because he was µe?a??? ß????? ???e???, (see the Septuagint, Isa_9:7), the Messenger of the great counsel or design to redeem fallen man from death, and bring him to eternal glory; see Gen_16:7.
But it may be asked, Had he here a real human body, or only its form? The latter, doubtless.

Barnes:


There are, then, three acts in this dramatic scene: first, Jacob wrestling with the Omnipresent in the form of a man, in which he is signally defeated; second, Jacob importunately supplicating Yahweh, in which he prevails as a prince of God; third, Jacob receiving the blessing of a new name, a new development of spiritual life, and a new capacity for bodily action.
Gen_32:31-32
Peniel - the face of God. The reason of this name is assigned in the sentence, “I have seen God face to face.” He is at first called a man. Hosea terms him the angel (Hos_12:4-5 (3, 4). And here Jacob names him God. Hence, some men, deeply penetrated with the ineffable grandeur of the divine nature, are disposed to resolve the first act at least into an impression on the imagination. We do not pretend to define with undue nicety the mode of this wrestling. And we are far from saying that every sentence of Scripture is to be understood in a literal sense. But until some cogent reason be assigned, we do not feel at liberty to depart from the literal sense in this instance. The whole theory of a revelation from God to man is founded upon the principle that God can adapt himself to the apprehension of the being whom he has made in his own image. This principle we accept, and we dare not limit its application “further than the demonstrative laws of reason and conscience demand.” If God walk in the garden with Adam, expostulate with Cain, give a specification of the ark to Noah, partake of the hospitality of Abraham, take Lot by the hand to deliver him from Sodom, we cannot affirm that he may not, for a worthy end, enter into a bodily conflict with Jacob.




Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit and he was able to see what normally is not visible to us. He saw Jesus standing next to the Father. He saw two individuals, the same two we can see in many other scriptures. It is incorrect to erase the Father from all these scriptures and replace him with Jesus alone as a real visible "person".

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" yet Stephen actually saw his body, recognizing the Father visually as well as the Son.


1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Many have seen God, the LORD, literally sitting on a literal throne. That is simply because God has a literal body and form and sits upon a literal throne.


2Pet 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The Father not only has a real body just as Christ does, but he is also fully capable of speaking audibly even though Christ is the Word of God. That doesn't mean the Father cannot speak for himself.



Exo_31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Deu_9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have fingers, but the Father does.


Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


Here we see that he does have a face, has a hand, and has "back parts" of a body. Moses was not allowed to see his face, but he saw his hand and saw his "back parts".


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have a face, and a hand, and "back parts", but the Father does.


Exo 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
Exo 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't a visible body with feet, but the Father does.

Gill:


and there was under his feet; which shows that there was a visible form

Clarke:


The seventy elders, who were representatives of the whole congregation, were chosen to witness the manifestation of God




it effectively turns God and Jesus into two entirely separate entities (i.e. bitheism)


More than one "entity" or "person" is always accused of that but it is not true. There is one God, and as you teach it is more of a title than an identity. More than one person is the one God.




So, address your points to the OP's questions, not to me, please.


If you address a post to me I will address a response to you.

markedward
Jan 31st 2012, 12:39 AM
Clearly, you missed my point.

PneumaPsucheSoma
Jan 31st 2012, 07:22 AM
Clearly, you missed my point.

Get used to it. ROFLOL. :-)

David Taylor
Jan 31st 2012, 06:50 PM
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—who are they?

They are the I AM, YHWH, the eternal divine perfect uncreated God.

John146
Feb 1st 2012, 09:57 PM
Exo 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
Exo 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't a visible body with feet, but the Father does.How big are His feet and where are His feet resting right now on the earth? I'd like to know so I can go look at them.

Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

So, if He has physical feet and rests them on the earth then that would mean He physically sits upon heaven while doing so. Is heaven shaped like a chair then?

ewq1938
Feb 2nd 2012, 03:00 AM
How big are His feet and where are His feet resting right now on the earth? I'd like to know so I can go look at them.

Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

So, if He has physical feet and rests them on the earth then that would mean He physically sits upon heaven while doing so. Is heaven shaped like a chair then?

I don't answer questions that aren't sincerely asked.

John146
Feb 2nd 2012, 04:45 PM
I don't answer questions that aren't sincerely asked.Okay, then here is a sincere question. How do you interpret Isaiah 66:1?

Diggindeeper
Feb 2nd 2012, 07:07 PM
How big are His feet and where are His feet resting right now on the earth? I'd like to know so I can go look at them.

Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

So, if He has physical feet and rests them on the earth then that would mean He physically sits upon heaven while doing so. Is heaven shaped like a chair then?


I don't answer questions that aren't sincerely asked.

Seems like its as reasonable as your post, here, which was posted PRIOR to the question put here by John146:


Posted by ewq1938
Exo 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
Exo 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't a visible body with feet, but the Father does.

ewq1938
Feb 2nd 2012, 10:15 PM
Okay, then here is a sincere question. How do you interpret Isaiah 66:1?

Here the heavens symbolize his literal throne and the Earth symbolizes his literal footstool.

ewq1938
Feb 2nd 2012, 10:24 PM
Seems like its as reasonable as your post, here, which was posted PRIOR to the question put here by John146:

What John employed, and often employs, is a logical fallacy known as Exaggeration, and sometimes mixes it with another known as An appeal to ridicule rather than to just deal with the subject in a more positive fashion.

The issue is that God describes himself in his own scripture as a male with a male form but many people's personal tradition's have come to deny these things over time.

John146
Feb 2nd 2012, 10:43 PM
Here the heavens symbolize his literal throne and the Earth symbolizes his literal footstool.Why do you understand that verse in a symbolic sense but not the other verses that speak of His feet and such? Why couldn't the other verses that speak of His feet and so on be symbolic as well?

John146
Feb 2nd 2012, 10:50 PM
What John employed, and often employs, is a logical fallacy known as ExaggerationI do not often employ exaggeration. That statement in itself is an exaggeration. Maybe regarding this particular issue I have done that, but not overall when you include all the other issues I've discussed. But if it offended you, I apologize. I just think that if you are going to read one passage literally as talking about Him having physical feet and so on then in order to be consistent you should read a verse like Isaiah 66:1 literally as well. But by reading that verse literally it would lead one to draw some pretty silly conclusions.

ewq1938
Feb 2nd 2012, 10:52 PM
Why do you understand that verse in a symbolic sense but not the other verses that speak of His feet and such?

Because I recognize figurative language and recognize literal language.



Why couldn't the other verses that speak of His feet and so on be symbolic as well?

Because the Father is a literal person with a form that people have seen.

John146
Feb 2nd 2012, 10:58 PM
Because I recognize figurative language and recognize literal language.I believe I do as well and yet I come to different conclusions than you do.


Because the Father is a literal person with a form that people have seen.How do you know that? You could say scripture says that but then I could use that same logic and say that scripture says He uses the earth as a footstool for His feet so that proves He has huge physical feet. I guess it's just a matter of opinion and a matter of who can discern when the language is figurative and when it is literal and who can't. Part of discerning that is looking at what scripture teaches as a whole and it teaches that the Father is spirit so that has to be taken into consideration. Anyway, we've been over all this before so we can just agree to disagree without repeating that whole discussion all over again.

ewq1938
Feb 2nd 2012, 11:01 PM
Maybe regarding this particular issue I have done that, but not overall when you include all the other issues I've discussed. But if it offended you, I apologize.

That's what I meant. In this topic you have constantly employed exaggeration to mock my position.


I just think that if you are going to read one passage literally as talking about Him having physical feet and so on then in order to be consistent you should read a verse like Isaiah 66:1 literally as well.

Just because something is used in a figurative way does not mean we must use it figuratively in every instance. Water is written both in a figurative way and a literal way but if I was to do as you suggest, then it would have to always be figurative. That doesn't make sense. When Moses was told he couldn't look upon God's face, it's literal. God has a face that man usually isn't allowed to see. God also used his hand to hide his face from Moses also proving he has a hand, and what Moses did see was his back side also proving he has a backside that can be seen. There is nothing weird or unusual about this, at least not for me. God has a form. One might argue it's only used at times rather than as the norm but I find any arguments against what is plainly described in that interaction as being weak and without merit.


But by reading that verse literally it would lead one to draw some pretty silly conclusions.

Yes, as well as silly and immature taunts like that I believe in some giant on a beanstalk...not by you but others. These types of fallacies cause harm and make true Christian discussions impossible.

ewq1938
Feb 2nd 2012, 11:09 PM
I believe I do as well and yet I come to different conclusions than you do.

Nothing wrong with that. I just want you to understand and recognize what portions of scripture have lead me to believe as I do as well as I would like to see why those same scriptures do not affect you the same way.




How do you know that?

Let's start with the encounter Moses had with God.


Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Does God have a face? Can that face be seen? (a man will die but the face can be seen according to this)


Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

Does God have a hand? Did Moses see this hand which was used by God to block his face from being seen? Ever seen something bad on tv and you don't want your kids to see it so you put your hand in front of their eyes so they can't see it? The child can see your hand but not what you didn't want them to see.

Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Again, both the hand and the face is mentioned as well as what Moses can safely see, the back side of God's body. Surely he was clothed since other descriptions of Him show him wearing a robe.

God clearly has a real form/body here. Why would anyone argue these things away unless they are defending a deep seated preconceived belief about God not having a literal form?

Diggindeeper
Feb 2nd 2012, 11:32 PM
Because I recognize figurative language and recognize literal language.



Because the Father is a literal person with a form that people have seen.

That is taught all the time in Mormonism.........

PneumaPsucheSoma
Feb 2nd 2012, 11:40 PM
I've had to deal with EWQ a number of times and think he's Toucan Sam on this and other issues; but he's not even vaguely close to espousing Mormonism.

ewq1938
Feb 3rd 2012, 12:14 AM
That is taught all the time in Mormonism.........

So ?

Diggindeeper
Feb 3rd 2012, 12:17 AM
So ?

For one thing, Mormonism belongs in Areopagus, not in Bible Chat.

ewq1938
Feb 3rd 2012, 12:22 AM
For one thing, Mormonism belongs in Areopagus, not in Bible Chat.

Naturally but no one here has espoused Mormonism. Just because they teach something that is biblically accurate doesn't mean someone outside of Mormonism, who happens to see the same thing in the bible, doesn't make that person a Mormon.

PneumaPsucheSoma
Feb 3rd 2012, 12:22 AM
For one thing, Mormonism belongs in Areopagus, not in Bible Chat.

Mormonism is a man becoming God. EWQ is saying the one true God as Spirit has some kind of literal form. Not even close.

(I can't believe I was just an advocate for EWQ.)

ewq1938
Feb 3rd 2012, 12:25 AM
Mormonism is a man becoming God. EWQ is saying the one true God as Spirit has some kind of literal form. Not even close.

(I can't believe I was just an advocate for EWQ.)


haha :)

Yes, from what I have read they believe God was originally a human being who somehow ascended to Godhood and that's why he has a physical form. Naturally God the Father was never human and has always been God. I simply read where his physical body is described in the scriptures. (KJV not the Mormon add on writings)

Jemand
Feb 3rd 2012, 06:58 PM
Let's start with the encounter Moses had with God.


Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Does God have a face? Can that face be seen? (a man will die but the face can be seen according to this)


Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

Does God have a hand? Did Moses see this hand which was used by God to block his face from being seen? Ever seen something bad on tv and you don't want your kids to see it so you put your hand in front of their eyes so they can't see it? The child can see your hand but not what you didn't want them to see.

Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Again, both the hand and the face is mentioned as well as what Moses can safely see, the back side of God's body. Surely he was clothed since other descriptions of Him show him wearing a robe.

God clearly has a real form/body here. Why would anyone argue these things away unless they are defending a deep seated preconceived belief about God not having a literal form?

John 4:24. “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”


Isa. 66:1. Thus says the LORD, “Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?
2. “For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being,” declares the LORD. “But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.”

Acts 7:46. “David found favor in God’s sight, and asked that he might find a dwelling place for the God of Jacob.
47. “But it was Solomon who built a house for Him.
48. “However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands; as the prophet says:
49. ‘HEAVEN IS MY THRONE, AND EARTH IS THE FOOTSTOOL OF MY FEET; WHAT KIND OF HOUSE WILL YOU BUILD FOR ME?’ says the Lord, ‘OR WHAT PLACE IS THERE FOR MY REPOSE?
50. ‘WAS IT NOT MY HAND WHICH MADE ALL THESE THINGS?’
51. “You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.”

In Isa. 66:1-2 and the quotation from it in Acts 7:46-51, we have God declaring His infinite majesty using figurative language. He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords and He reigns over the earth from heaven, the earth being totally in subjection to Him.

Ex. 33:7. Now Moses used to take the tent and pitch it outside the camp, a good distance from the camp, and he called it the tent of meeting. And everyone who sought the LORD would go out to the tent of meeting which was outside the camp.
8. And it came about, whenever Moses went out to the tent, that all the people would arise and stand, each at the entrance of his tent, and gaze after Moses until he entered the tent.
9. Whenever Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the entrance of the tent; and the LORD would speak with Moses.
10. When all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent, all the people would arise and worship, each at the entrance of his tent.
11. Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses returned to the camp, his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.
12. Then Moses said to the LORD, “See, You say to me, ‘Bring up this people!’ But You Yourself have not let me know whom You will send with me. Moreover, You have said, ‘I have known you by name, and you have also found favor in My sight.’
13. “Now therefore, I pray You, if I have found favor in Your sight, let me know Your ways that I may know You, so that I may find favor in Your sight. Consider too, that this nation is Your people.”
14. And He said, “My presence shall go with you, and I will give you rest.”
15. Then he said to Him, “If Your presence does not go with us, do not lead us up from here.
16. “For how then can it be known that I have found favor in Your sight, I and Your people? Is it not by Your going with us, so that we, I and Your people, may be distinguished from all the other people who are upon the face of the earth?”
17. The LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing of which you have spoken; for you have found favor in My sight and I have known you by name.”
18. Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!”
19. And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.”
20. But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”
21. Then the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock;
22. and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by.
23. “Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.”

God is a spiritual rather than a physical being. However, being God, He has the ability to manifest Himself in human form when it is appropriate for Him to do so, as we see above in Exodus 33:7-23.

In the seventh chapter of Daniel and the fifth chapter of Revelation, we have visions full of symbolism rather than sightings of God Himself.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)

ewq1938
Feb 3rd 2012, 08:32 PM
John 4:24. “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

This refers to the Holy Spirit as God. The only part of God which is spirit.



God is a spiritual rather than a physical being. However, being God, He has the ability to manifest Himself in human form when it is appropriate for Him to do so, as we see above in Exodus 33:7-23.

God is spiritual and physical as I can name Christ as physical and the Holy Spirit as only spirit. However, that doesn't address God the Father who is described in the scriptures as being physical. But, I am happy to see that you at least admit the Father has manifested himself physically. While you might assume this is a rare occasion, it is not.

John146
Feb 3rd 2012, 10:21 PM
That's what I meant. In this topic you have constantly employed exaggeration to mock my position.I think you are exaggerating a bit by saying I've done it "constantly" but nonetheless, I apologize for doing that and will try not to do it again since I can see it offends you. Sometimes exaggeration can be used for emphasis to illustrate a point and that was my intention but it's not worth it if it offends you. I don't intend to offend.

ewq1938
Feb 3rd 2012, 10:24 PM
I think you are exaggerating a bit by saying I've done it "constantly" but nonetheless, I apologize for doing that and will try not to do it again since I can see it offended you.

I appreciate that. God is not a huge giant, although he could take that form if he wanted. All the descriptions of him describe a normal sized man with grey hair, robes, etc. Whether this is shown to us for our benefit, or it's his normal appearance we don't know. Times when his throne is heaven I feel is clearly figurative but when Ezekiel saw God's throne in a whirlwind, I believe it's literal.

John146
Feb 3rd 2012, 10:26 PM
Let's start with the encounter Moses had with God.


Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Does God have a face? Can that face be seen? (a man will die but the face can be seen according to this)Even if He has a face that can be seen that doesn't mean it has to be a physical face just like ours (with a physical nose, mouth, eyes and ears and so on). He also has feet with which He rests on His footstool, the earth (Isa 66:1), but that doesn't mean He has physical feet that He physically rests on the earth. So, as we already discussed it's just a matter of opinion on whether you think any particular passage is literal or figurative and we just disagree on that.

ewq1938
Feb 3rd 2012, 10:30 PM
Even if He has a face that can be seen that doesn't mean it has to be a physical face just like ours (with a physical nose, mouth, eyes and ears and so on). He also has feet with which He rests on His footstool, the earth (Isa 66:1), but that doesn't mean He has physical feet that He physically rests on the earth. So, as we already discussed it's just a matter of opinion on whether you think any particular passage is literal or figurative and we just disagree on that.

He says he has a face...what else could he mean? What about the rest of the verses? What of his hand? Not a real hand covering a not real face?

What of what Moses saw concerning the back parts of God? Clearly God was in some physical, visible form as opposed to invisible spirit.

Can we at least agree for this one encounter God was in a visible, physical manifestation? I'd be happy with that.

John146
Feb 3rd 2012, 10:35 PM
This refers to the Holy Spirit as God. The only part of God which is spirit.The problem with that is you don't appear to be taking the verse in context. Is it really saying we should worship the Holy Spirit in spirit and truth? How does that fit the context of the surrounding verses?

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So, in verses 21-23 Jesus is teaching the woman at the well that the time had come for people to worship the Father in spirit and in truth. That establishes the context. He's talking about worshiping the Father in spirit and in truth. So, when verse 24 says "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth" it should be clear that Jesus was talking about the Father since it is the Father that we must worship in spirit and in truth, as Jesus taught throughout the passage.

ewq1938
Feb 3rd 2012, 10:37 PM
The problem with that is you don't appear to be taking the verse in context. Is it really saying we should worship the Holy Spirit in spirit and truth? How does that fit the context of the surrounding verses?

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So, in verses 21-23 Jesus is teaching the woman at the well that the time had come for people to worship the Father in spirit and in truth. That establishes the context. He's talking about worshiping the Father in spirit and in truth. So, when verse 24 says "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth" it should be clear that Jesus was talking about the Father since it is the Father that we must worship in spirit and in truth, as Jesus taught throughout the passage.


The holy spirit is the spirit of the Father. To worship his spirit is to worship him.

John146
Feb 3rd 2012, 10:38 PM
He says he has a face...what else could he mean?Why does it have to be a physical face like you and I have? Again, Isa 66:1 speaks of Him having feet since it talks about the earth being His footstool. Does that mean He must have physical feet like we have? Of course not.


What about the rest of the verses? What of his hand? Not a real hand covering a not real face?Sure, why not? You acknowledge that there are other verses that speak of Him having feet and a throne and so on only in a figurative sense so why not those as well?


What of what Moses saw concerning the back parts of God? Clearly God was in some physical, visible form as opposed to invisible spirit.Visible, yes, but not necessarily physical. Light is visible but can you touch it?


Can we at least agree for this one encounter God was in a visible, physical manifestation? I'd be happy with that.Sorry, but we can't. But that's okay. This issue isn't that important as long as you don't believe God was ever created or anything like that.

John146
Feb 3rd 2012, 10:39 PM
The holy spirit is the spirit of the Father. To worship his spirit is to worship him.But as I showed Jesus was specifically speaking of worshiping the Father in that passage, not the Holy Spirit. I think that is very clear.

ewq1938
Feb 3rd 2012, 10:46 PM
Why does it have to be a physical face like you and I have? Again, Isa 66:1 speaks of Him having feet since it talks about the earth being His footstool. Does that mean He must have physical feet like we have? Of course not.

Not from that verse which I have already commented on but Moses saw him walking so yes he has feet and legs too. We are created in his image.




Sure, why not? You acknowledge that there are other verses that speak of Him having feet and a throne and so on only in a figurative sense so why not those as well?

Because it is obvious figurative language in yours. In the rest of the verses which I have posted, he is not described as a giant.



Visible, yes, but not necessarily physical. Light is visible but can you touch it?

We aren't talking about light but a person other people have seen. There are witnesses that have seen God.


Sorry, but we can't. But that's okay. This issue isn't that important as long as you don't believe God was ever created or anything like that.

Why would anyone believe that?

ewq1938
Feb 3rd 2012, 10:48 PM
But as I showed Jesus was specifically speaking of worshiping the Father in that passage, not the Holy Spirit. I think that is very clear.

The Holy Spirit is the Father's spirit. The passage is speaking of the Father but covers both the literal and the spiritual.

John146
Feb 3rd 2012, 11:19 PM
Why would anyone believe that?I can't tell you exactly why people believe what they do but in case you didn't notice people believe all sorts of things that are not true.

Jemand
Feb 4th 2012, 06:48 PM
John 4:24. “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”


This refers to the Holy Spirit as God. The only part of God which is spirit.

John 4:22. “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
23. “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
24. “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
25. The woman *said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.”
26. Jesus *said to her, “I who speak to you am He."

In this passage, we read of the Father and of Jesus as the Messiah; the Holy Spirit is neither mentioned nor in view. The antecedent of the title “God” in verse 24 is “The Father” in verse 23. Therefore, it is grammatically impossible for your interpretation to be correct.


[COLOR="#000080"] God is a spiritual rather than a physical being. However, being God, He has the ability to manifest Himself in human form when it is appropriate for Him to do so, as we see above in Exodus 33:7-23.


God is spiritual and physical as I can name Christ as physical and the Holy Spirit as only spirit. However, that doesn't address God the Father who is described in the scriptures as being physical. But, I am happy to see that you at least admit the Father has manifested himself physically. While you might assume this is a rare occasion, it is not.

No, verse 24, in the Greek text, reads, “πνευμα ο θεος….” (Pneuma ho Theos….) These words do not mean that “God is spiritual and physical,” or even “God is spiritual;” they mean, “God is spirit.” Moreover, the Scriptures never describe God the Father as a physical being having mass; they describe Him as He is, a spirit, a spiritual being who, in a very few instances in the Scriptures, is said to have manifested Himself in human form, but never in physical, human substance.

Some will argue that God wrestled with Jacob in Gen. 32:24-30. However, verse 24 specifically says that it was “a man” with whom Jacob wrestled and the entire passage must be interpreted in accord with that expressly stated fact rather than Jacob’s perception of the event.

ewq1938
Feb 4th 2012, 11:08 PM
John 4:22. “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
23. “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
24. “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
25. The woman *said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.”
26. Jesus *said to her, “I who speak to you am He."

In this passage, we read of the Father and of Jesus as the Messiah; the Holy Spirit is neither mentioned nor in view. The antecedent of the title “God” in verse 24 is “The Father” in verse 23.


Incorrect. Never does it say "The Father is spirit" because the Father is not spirit. Only the Father's spirit is spirit.




Moreover, the Scriptures never describe God the Father as a physical being having mass; they describe Him as He is, a spirit, a spiritual being who, in a very few instances in the Scriptures, is said to have manifested Himself in human form, but never in physical, human substance.

Incorrect, the Father is always described in a physical being having mass:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping
thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The word "likeness" here is demu^th meaning resemblance, or shape.

H1823
??????
demu^th
dem-ooth'
From H1819; resemblance; concretely model, shape; adverbially like: - fashion, like (-ness, as), manner, similitude.


So, if our physical image is after God's then we should not be surprised that the Father also has a body, as does his Son and Angels etc.



Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:


Here we see the same exact words and wording. The meaning is exactly the same: someone who physically resembled their parent.


Gill


man being the principal part of the creation, and for the sake of whom the world, and all things in it were made, and which being finished, he is introduced into it as into an house ready prepared and furnished for him; a consultation is held among the divine Persons about the formation of him; not because of any difficulty attending it, but as expressive of his honour and dignity; it being proposed he should be made not in the likeness of any of the creatures already made, but as near as could be in the likeness and image of God.


Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image,.... Which consisted both in the form of his body, and the erect stature of it, different from all other creatures



Here are some scriptures which show that the Father does have hands and arms and a head and hair....and....well you get the idea...he is not a spirit according to what Christ said, "a spirit hath not flesh and bones"

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have hair or clothes, but the Father does.

Clarke:


The Ancient of days - God Almighty; and this is the only place in the sacred writings where God the Father is represented in a human form.


Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have hands, but the Father does.


See, there is this view, as seen in the above scriptures and then there is another view that holds the Father is nothing more than "a bodiless spirit". This view would then suggest when we stand before God in heaven, there's only going to be one person there who is God. In my opinion this view of God is inaccurate and contradicts a great deal of scriptures.

I fully believe Jesus will be there as well as his Father and we will see the both of them just as we see in the above scriptures.

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Here Jacob not only wrestles with God physically, he also was allowed to see His face and live.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't arms and hands and a face and certainly couldn't physically wrestle a human being, but the Father does and did.

Gill:


though he had wrestled with one so vastly superior to himself, who could have easily crushed this worm Jacob to pieces, as he is sometimes called; and though he had had such a sight of God as face to faces referring, as is thought, to a notion that obtained early, even among good men, that upon sight of God a man instantly died; though we have no example of that kind: but perhaps he observed this for his encouragement; that whereas he had met with God himself, and wrestled with him in the form of a man, and yet was preserved, he doubted not that, when he should meet with his brother and debate matters with him, he should be safe and unhurt.


(note: M.H. here believe this is Jesus Christ not the Father but the basic concept is still the same, God in a physical form. I believe it was the Father.)

Mathew Henry:


This was doubtless the Lord Jesus Christ, who, among the patriarchs, assumed that human form, which in the fullness of time he really took of a woman, and in which he dwelt thirty-three years among men. He is here styled an angel, because he was µe?a??? ß????? ???e???, (see the Septuagint, Isa_9:7), the Messenger of the great counsel or design to redeem fallen man from death, and bring him to eternal glory; see Gen_16:7.
But it may be asked, Had he here a real human body, or only its form? The latter, doubtless.

Barnes:


There are, then, three acts in this dramatic scene: first, Jacob wrestling with the Omnipresent in the form of a man, in which he is signally defeated; second, Jacob importunately supplicating Yahweh, in which he prevails as a prince of God; third, Jacob receiving the blessing of a new name, a new development of spiritual life, and a new capacity for bodily action.
Gen_32:31-32
Peniel - the face of God. The reason of this name is assigned in the sentence, “I have seen God face to face.” He is at first called a man. Hosea terms him the angel (Hos_12:4-5 (3, 4). And here Jacob names him God. Hence, some men, deeply penetrated with the ineffable grandeur of the divine nature, are disposed to resolve the first act at least into an impression on the imagination. We do not pretend to define with undue nicety the mode of this wrestling. And we are far from saying that every sentence of Scripture is to be understood in a literal sense. But until some cogent reason be assigned, we do not feel at liberty to depart from the literal sense in this instance. The whole theory of a revelation from God to man is founded upon the principle that God can adapt himself to the apprehension of the being whom he has made in his own image. This principle we accept, and we dare not limit its application “further than the demonstrative laws of reason and conscience demand.” If God walk in the garden with Adam, expostulate with Cain, give a specification of the ark to Noah, partake of the hospitality of Abraham, take Lot by the hand to deliver him from Sodom, we cannot affirm that he may not, for a worthy end, enter into a bodily conflict with Jacob.




Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit and he was able to see what normally is not visible to us. He saw Jesus standing next to the Father. He saw two individuals, the same two we can see in many other scriptures. It is incorrect to erase the Father from all these scriptures and replace him with Jesus alone as a real visible "person".

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" yet Stephen actually saw his body, recognizing the Father visually as well as the Son.


1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Many have seen God, the LORD, literally sitting on a literal throne. That is simply because God has a literal body and form and sits upon a literal throne.


2Pet 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The Father not only has a real body just as Christ does, but he is also fully capable of speaking audibly even though Christ is the Word of God. That doesn't mean the Father cannot speak for himself.



Exo_31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Deu_9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have fingers, but the Father does.


Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


Here we see that he does have a face, has a hand, and has "back parts" of a body. Moses was not allowed to see his face, but he saw his hand and saw his "back parts".


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have a face, and a hand, and "back parts", but the Father does.


Exo 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
Exo 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have a visible body with feet, but the Father does.

Gill:


and there was under his feet; which shows that there was a visible form

Clarke:


The seventy elders, who were representatives of the whole congregation, were chosen to witness the manifestation of God





Some will argue that God wrestled with Jacob in Gen. 32:24-30. However, verse 24 specifically says that it was “a man” with whom Jacob wrestled and the entire passage must be interpreted in accord with that expressly stated fact rather than Jacob’s perception of the event.

I agree with Jacob since Jacob was the one there.

PneumaPsucheSoma
Feb 5th 2012, 12:24 AM
Well... At least you're not a Mormon. :-P

ewq1938
Feb 5th 2012, 01:42 AM
Well... At least you're not a Mormon. :-P

Apparently I might as well be. Shoot, at least they can have more than one wife lol. I have none currently!