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keyzer soze
Feb 16th 2012, 02:24 AM
So in my quest to read the bible from cover to cover I read through the end of Judges today and I have to say, I was dumbfounded when I read Judges 19... What is the deal with this? The story starts off just like Lot with "the good guys" offering up their women when they are threatened of being homo-sexually raped by townspeople. And this was the town that the Levite PREFERRED to stop at because it was populated by Israelites! What in the WORLD would have happened had they stopped at Jebus instead, I can only shudder when I imagine if the "friendly" town brings gang rapers to your door.

Does anyone else read this and wonder what in the heck are we to make of this? Do husbands just view their women as luggage back then? I mean, did the old man and Levite get a good night sleep while his woman was being raped and killed all night long? Then when he wakes up all he has to say is "Get up and lets go." Are you serious?!?!?!?! Then throws her on the donkey and takes her home to slice her up and ship her around the country.... WOW! I actually PINCHED myself after reading this to verify that I was indeed awake and not dreaming that I was reading the bible because the story seemed to similar to Lot's story up until women are being sliced into pieces instead of turned into pillars of salt.

Is the general message simply that humanity is 100% broken and without God we are capable of any and every type of horror?

IMINXTC
Feb 16th 2012, 02:38 AM
Lot"s offering his virgin daughters in defense of those who had come under his roof as guests, denotes his fierce commitment to Godly hospitality and in so doing, entertained angels unaware.

Many see Lot's actions as those of a bumbling compromiser, torn between his allegiance to the world and his conscience, while others see a depth, in Sodom, of abomination not even comparable to the offering of one's daughters.

"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;" 2 Pe 2:6-8

TrustGzus
Feb 16th 2012, 02:59 AM
Is the general message simply that humanity is 100% broken and without God we are capable of any and every type of horror?

I think you are correct with this question.

I don't buy the hospitality bit with Lot. You don't offer your virgin daughter(s) to town perverts. Lot lost his head, conscience and all common sense. He wasn't walking with God and his actions reflect this.

And yes, we are capable of incredible amounts of garbage. I know a cold case detective who is a Christian. He thinks anyone is capable of murder if the right buttons are pushed. I tend to agree with him. The people he arrests are one-time murderers who murdered someone 20-40 years ago. Something in each case pushed them too far and they murdered one person for various reasons. Then they were always other people's neighbors and everyone is shocked because "he would never do that!". But he did.

Look at David --- a man after God's heart. Adultery and murder. If he could do it, who am I to say that I am above that?

I think all too often Christians don't have a thorough enough appreciation for our depravity. And I am not a Calvinist, by the way, as I say that.

teddyv
Feb 16th 2012, 05:54 AM
The whole book of Judges is a story of a death spiral of depravity of Israel, culminating in this final story.

StevenC
Feb 16th 2012, 06:54 AM
I am a bit surprised by the question, but the answer is simple. Like the story of Lot and Sodom, it is clear there that Lot considered it the lesser of two evils. To allow a man to lay with a man was considered a more vile offense than for a man to lay with a woman. In OT law if a man lay with another man they would both be put to death, but if a women were taken advantage of only the men would be put to death. While we might be appalled that Lot would make such an offer in the first place, the point perhaps is that Lot was trying to appeal to the men not to lay with another man and if it were necessary take his daughters instead.

It is a ghastly scenario all the way around, men running rampant, trying to mate with anything that moves. Fortunately nowadays we have firearms to deal with such things...I am joking of course, but seriously you know if people were acting like that now, there would be others who wouldn't put up with it. So I thank God that he gave me life in a better time than that of Lot. To judge Lot or the Levite is really silly though. We can't really even fathom what must have been going through their minds. They were both clearly very desperate to make such an offer.

Adstars
Feb 16th 2012, 11:54 AM
So in my quest to read the bible from cover to cover I read through the end of Judges today and I have to say, I was dumbfounded when I read Judges 19... What is the deal with this? The story starts off just like Lot with "the good guys" offering up their women when they are threatened of being homo-sexually raped by townspeople. And this was the town that the Levite PREFERRED to stop at because it was populated by Israelites! What in the WORLD would have happened had they stopped at Jebus instead, I can only shudder when I imagine if the "friendly" town brings gang rapers to your door.

Does anyone else read this and wonder what in the heck are we to make of this? Do husbands just view their women as luggage back then? I mean, did the old man and Levite get a good night sleep while his woman was being raped and killed all night long? Then when he wakes up all he has to say is "Get up and lets go." Are you serious?!?!?!?! Then throws her on the donkey and takes her home to slice her up and ship her around the country.... WOW! I actually PINCHED myself after reading this to verify that I was indeed awake and not dreaming that I was reading the bible because the story seemed to similar to Lot's story up until women are being sliced into pieces instead of turned into pillars of salt.

The name is Jesus. Do not mock our Lord in this forum.

Get this message. Lot was a Human being. thus a faulty person who under extreme pressure made an big mistake. He was focused on saving the angels from being raped, He might have feared what would happen if they where raped. But in the Story the Angels intervened themselves and stopped the mob from either raping them or defiling the woman. So NO rape took place.




Then throws her on the donkey and takes her home to slice her up and ship her around the country...

What story is this a part of? Did you read the account or did you get this off an anti-christ website?




Is the general message simply that humanity is 100% broken and without God we are capable of any and every type of horror?

Cheer... Good to see some accurate assessments being made in your post. Gives one hope.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

jayne
Feb 16th 2012, 12:09 PM
I am a bit surprised by the question, but the answer is simple. Like the story of Lot and Sodom, it is clear there that Lot considered it the lesser of two evils. To allow a man to lay with a man was considered a more vile offense than for a man to lay with a woman. In OT law if a man lay with another man they would both be put to death, but if a women were taken advantage of only the men would be put to death. While we might be appalled that Lot would make such an offer in the first place, the point perhaps is that Lot was trying to appeal to the men not to lay with another man and if it were necessary take his daughters instead.

Brother, in this story of Genesis 19, there was no "Old Testament Law". The Levitical Law had not been written. It woud not come until centuries later. If Lot were so offended at the thought of men committing homosexual acts, then he would not have lived in Sodom and Gomorrah in the first place.

His decision to allow these wicked men to do to his daughers "whatever they wanted to" - as was his exact words - proves that he was not choosing between a lesser of two evils. In fact, according to that thinking, it would have been the greater of two evils to unleash the crowd of rapists on the two unmarried daughters as opposed to the grown men because the two young girls would have been more helpless to fight back than two grown men.

The simple anwer is that there is no justification for Lot's decision to allow the rapists to do "whatever they wanted" to his daughters.

He put both himself and his family in spiritual and moral jeopardy by living there in the first place. He "pitched his tent" towards Sodom - so says the Bible. And with his reluctance to leave after the angels told him to (they had to physically drag him out), his wife's yearning for what was behind, and his daughters' choice to have sex with a drunken father ..... it would appear that the entire family's HEART was pitched towards Sodom.

Peter, in the New Testament, calls Lot a righteous man. We have to accept that. But what is also evident is that even righteous people can do the most HEINOUS things when their minds and hearts are surrounded by evil and they don't purge themselves from it.

jayne
Feb 16th 2012, 12:25 PM
What story is this a part of? Did you read the account or did you get this off an anti-christ website?

Adstars, read Judges 19. The concubine ran away from the Levite to her father. The Levite went and found her to bring her home and they spent the night along the way at someone's house. The rapists came to the door for the Levite, but the host offerred the his daughter and the Levite's concubine for them instead. The concubine is gang-raped and killed. The Levite sees her in the morning lying by the threshhold of the door and says, "Get up. Let's go." So much for any affection he had for her.

He cuts her up into pieces and send her body parts to the 12 tribes desiring them to punish the offenders. Towards the end of Judges, it says "In those days Israel had no King and everyone did what was right in his own eyes."

This was a HORRIBLY Godless time in the life of the nation of Israel.

The tribes do send soldiers to the town where this happened and a battle goes on.

Where is the real tragedy? It's that fact that no one cared about this woman while she was alive. The only offense in the eyes of anyone was that the Levite was offended that she was dead. Not that she was given to a group of gang-rapists intending on raping him.

It's a picture of how wicked people can think, believe, and act when God is not the center of their thoughts, beliefs, and actions.

keyzer soze
Feb 16th 2012, 03:32 PM
The name is Jesus. Do not mock our Lord in this forum.

Get this message. Lot was a Human being. thus a faulty person who under extreme pressure made an big mistake. He was focused on saving the angels from being raped, He might have feared what would happen if they where raped. But in the Story the Angels intervened themselves and stopped the mob from either raping them or defiling the woman. So NO rape took place.





What story is this a part of? Did you read the account or did you get this off an anti-christ website?





Cheer... Good to see some accurate assessments being made in your post. Gives one hope.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Why don't you open your bible and read JUDGES Chapter 19 and then rejoin the thread and apologize to me instead of simply coming here not knowing the bible and trying to imply that I am making this up from the story of Lot which isn't even in the book of Judges. And make sure you read the name of the town, it is JEBUS not JESUS. Jesus is our savior not the name of a town in this chapter. Perhaps your time would be better spent READING THE BIBLE vs. posting on forums claiming that people are of the anti-Christ.

Adstars
Feb 17th 2012, 01:32 PM
I apologize for the misunderstanding i had about your reference to Jebus. I often see a lot of people use the term as a form of mockery against Jesus and his followers.



But i will not retract from my point that no rape occurred in Sodom on the daughters of Lot.

Genesis 19
19 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. 2 And he said, “Here now, my lords, please turn in to your servant’s house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.”

And they said, “No, but we will spend the night in the open square.”

3 But he insisted strongly; so they turned in to him and entered his house. Then he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.

4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.”

6 So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him, 7 and said, “Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly! 8 See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof.”

9 And they said, “Stand back!” Then they said, “This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them.” So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door. 10 But the men reached out their hands and pulled Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. 11 And they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door.

Lot did offer His daughters but the crowd wanted the Angels. So the Angels fixed the situation by striking them with blindness. So again No rape took place.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Brother Mark
Feb 17th 2012, 01:54 PM
Brother, in this story of Genesis 19, there was no "Old Testament Law". The Levitical Law had not been written. It woud not come until centuries later. If Lot were so offended at the thought of men committing homosexual acts, then he would not have lived in Sodom and Gomorrah in the first place.

He was troubled by the homosexual acts. This is what Peter says.

2 Peter 2:7-8
7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men 8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
NASU

It's one way we know he was saved. Even though he lived outwardly in a bad place, inwardly, it troubled him greatly. His soul was tormented day by day because of the sensual conduct of the men.

He was troubled by the acts, and chose to live there anyway. He was so greatly offended, that scripture says his soul was tormented every day. That's strong words.


His decision to allow these wicked men to do to his daughers "whatever they wanted to" - as was his exact words - proves that he was not choosing between a lesser of two evils. In fact, according to that thinking, it would have been the greater of two evils to unleash the crowd of rapists on the two unmarried daughters as opposed to the grown men because the two young girls would have been more helpless to fight back than two grown men.

The simple anwer is that there is no justification for Lot's decision to allow the rapists to do "whatever they wanted" to his daughters.

There's no justifying what he offered. I am amazed they grew up virgins in the society, for that we give him credit. But to offer them to the crowd is beyond belief! He was clearly wrong in doing this. Thank God the angels would have none of it.


He put both himself and his family in spiritual and moral jeopardy by living there in the first place. He "pitched his tent" towards Sodom - so says the Bible. And with his reluctance to leave after the angels told him to (they had to physically drag him out), his wife's yearning for what was behind, and his daughters' choice to have sex with a drunken father ..... it would appear that the entire family's HEART was pitched towards Sodom.

Indeed. That fateful decision long ago impacted his entire family. It should serve as a warning to every head of household everywhere, and everywhen.


Peter, in the New Testament, calls Lot a righteous man. We have to accept that. But what is also evident is that even righteous people can do the most HEINOUS things when their minds and hearts are surrounded by evil and they don't purge themselves from it.

Lot is not the only one. We could add to that many of God's other Godly men and women in the scriptures. Though I think a strong case can be made that Lot wasted his life while many of the others did not.

Adstars
Feb 17th 2012, 01:58 PM
I have just read again Judges19 and 20

If you read the chapters you will see that what was done was Not justified by God or by the other tribes of Israel. And 400,000 Israelites went to war against the tribe of Benjamin over this event. And many thousands of Israelite s including Benjamen where killed in this conflict.

So stating that the bible says this happened does not mean that God approved of what happened. God did not approve and many men died because of what happened.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Theophilus
Feb 17th 2012, 02:01 PM
The Bible is full of stories that take an unflinching look at things that are abhorrent to us, just as they are abhorrent to God. This very candidness lends credence to the fact that the Bible is true.

King David causes a man to be, for all intents and purposes, murdered, so he can "get away with" having impregnated his wife.

Jepthah makes a vow, and ends up sacrificing his daughter.

God told Jeremiah to say this (Jeremiah 19) Say: Hear the word of the LORD, kings of Judah and residents of Jerusalem. This is what the LORD of Hosts, the God of Israel, says: I am going to bring such disaster on this place that everyone who hears about it will shudder because they have abandoned Me and made this a foreign place. They have burned incense in it to other gods that they, their fathers, and the kings of Judah have never known. They have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. They have built high places to Baal on which to burn their children in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, something I have never commanded or mentioned; I never entertained the thought.

...and I think that last verse is a key. Men do many things that God does not condone...things He has never even considered. What men do cannot detract, however, from who God is and what He does. He is perfect in righteousness, holiness, and justice. He is love personified. Many things that are done in His name due not bear His "stamp of approval".

What I take away from such stories is that there are consequences to wrongful actions, but there is hope for forgiveness, even after the commission of the most heinous acts. Additionally, always look to God/Jesus as our example, never to men.

steelcurtain76
Feb 17th 2012, 02:08 PM
I apologize for the misunderstanding i had about your reference to Jebus. I often see a lot of people use the term as a form of mockery against Jesus and his followers.



But i will not retract from my point that no rape occurred in Sodom on the daughters of Lot.

Genesis 19
19 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. 2 And he said, “Here now, my lords, please turn in to your servant’s house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.”

And they said, “No, but we will spend the night in the open square.”

3 But he insisted strongly; so they turned in to him and entered his house. Then he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.

4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.”

6 So Lot went out to them through thie doorway, shut the door behind him, 7 and said, “Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly! 8 See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof.”

9 And they said, “Stand back!” Then they said, “This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them.” So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door. 10 But the men reached out their hands and pulled Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. 11 And they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door.

Lot did offer His daughters but the crowd wanted the Angels. So the Angels fixed the situation by striking them with blindness. So again No rape took place.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

The OP is correct and you do owe him a retraction on your accusation that he dug up his thoughts from anti-Christ website.

He is referring to a story in Judges which did take place. You're referring to a different story.

keyzer soze
Feb 17th 2012, 02:33 PM
I think I simply understate the cultural differences at times between O.T. time and now. In Judges 19 it seems odd to me that the Levite and the old man's conscious wouldn't eventually get the best of them and force them to go outside of the house and try to save the woman. I am left wondering if they didn't get a good night sleep...

Then you have a few stories of men claiming their wives are their sisters because they are beautiful and fear for their lives because of their wives beauty. This puts their wives in positions of likely having sex with others but this doesn't seem to stop them from doing this even when their ancestors made this exact same mistake before them.

For the record, I don't think that everything in the bible is "justifiable by God" as some people seem to think that I am stating above. I don't know how you jump to that conclusion but regardless, this is not so. Just as I don't believe the story of Cain killing his brother Abel is God's way of condoning murder, I don't believe these stories to be God condoning giving your women over to be raped... I never thought I would have to spell that out but maybe I should.

Brother Mark
Feb 17th 2012, 03:37 PM
I think I simply understate the cultural differences at times between O.T. time and now. In Judges 19 it seems odd to me that the Levite and the old man's conscious wouldn't eventually get the best of them and force them to go outside of the house and try to save the woman. I am left wondering if they didn't get a good night sleep...

Then you have a few stories of men claiming their wives are their sisters because they are beautiful and fear for their lives because of their wives beauty. This puts their wives in positions of likely having sex with others but this doesn't seem to stop them from doing this even when their ancestors made this exact same mistake before them.

For the record, I don't think that everything in the bible is "justifiable by God" as some people seem to think that I am stating above. I don't know how you jump to that conclusion but regardless, this is not so. Just as I don't believe the story of Cain killing his brother Abel is God's way of condoning murder, I don't believe these stories to be God condoning giving your women over to be raped... I never thought I would have to spell that out but maybe I should.

There was a turning point in Judges, IMO, with the people of Israel. The book ends on a sad note.

Judg 21:25

25 In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes. NASU

I think after Samson died, the country turned. Check out Judges 17 concerning Micah's idolatry. One of the greatest messages I have ever heard was preached on this passage and it was called "Ten Shekels and a Shirt" by Paris Reedhead. I may have misspelled his name but man, if you can google that message and hear it, it is AWESOME!

keyzer soze
Feb 17th 2012, 03:56 PM
Yeah, I believe the whole book of Judges is basically that same theme and shows what men do when they answer only to themselves.... very, very dark. Guess God is telling us why they needed a king in a bad way!

After reading this book I am confused if Samson would fit as a Judge? He seems about as fleshly as they come where at least some of the other Judges seem more Godly. Any thoughts on this?


Judg 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

Judg 18:1 In those days there was no king in Israel. And in those days the tribe of the people of Dan was seeking for itself an inheritance to dwell in, for until then no inheritance among the tribes of Israel had fallen to them.

Judg 19:1 In those days, when there was no king in Israel, a certain Levite was sojourning in the remote parts of the hill country of Ephraim, who took to himself a concubine from Bethlehem in Judah.

Judg 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

keck553
Feb 17th 2012, 08:13 PM
The Bible is unapologetic regarding bad choices by righteous people.

divaD
Feb 17th 2012, 10:03 PM
Lot did offer His daughters but the crowd wanted the Angels. So the Angels fixed the situation by striking them with blindness. So again No rape took place.





But that wouldn't be the point tho, right? Lot had no way of knowing what the angels we're going to do. So that infers he would have gone thru with it if that's what it took to get these men not to do wickedly to his guests. If these townsfolk were indeed homosexual men, and the fact they were Lot's guests, then apparently LOT saw the men having their way with his 2 guests as the greater of the 2 evils.