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Dani H
Apr 16th 2012, 02:37 AM
From The Heavenly Man (page 233):


However, after a few years these same mission organizations started putting other books at the top of the bags of Bibles. These were books about one particular denomination's theology, or teaching that focused on certain aspects of God's Word.
This, I believe, was the start of disunity among many of China's house churches.
These booklets told us we must worship in a certain way, or that we must speak in tongues to be a true believer, or that only if we were baptized in Jesus' name (instead of in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) could we be saved. Other teachings focused on extreme faith, still others argued for or against the role of women in the church.
We read all these booklets and soon we were confused! The churches started to split into groups that believed one thing against groups that believed another. Instead of only speaking for Jesus, we also started speaking against other believers who didn't conform to our views.

2 Cor 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

-SEEKING-
Apr 16th 2012, 02:41 AM
Could you imagine what could be done if we were all truly one?

PJW
Apr 16th 2012, 02:52 AM
God is in no wise throttled because there are only a few who are obedient to Him.
How many times was the nation of Israel victorious over larger armies and nations? Jesus doesn't need "numbers" to maintain His dominion on earth.

Dani H
Apr 16th 2012, 03:35 AM
Could you imagine what could be done if we were all truly one?

Yep! So can satan which is why he sows so much division!

LookingUp
Apr 16th 2012, 03:51 AM
From The Heavenly Man (page 233):



2 Cor 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.I read that book recently. Wow. Unity in Christ. Nice.

little watchman
Apr 16th 2012, 05:35 AM
D'ya know that Brother Yun (the Heavenly Man) is touring the United States this week? (http://backtojerusalem.com/v3/2012/04/back-to-jerusalem-april-2012-newsletter/) I rolled my eyes when I saw some of the organizations he's partnered with here, and I think he's smart enough to know they're not perfect. I don't go to many charismatic or "prophetic" churches because I'm not confident I can stand firm against deception. But Yun is tested and confident. Anywhere God leads he will go. I could use more of that confidence.

Amos_with_goats
Apr 16th 2012, 06:04 AM
Great thread Dani. :)


We will have unity one day... before the throne all the silly divisions will be forgotten.

Dani H
Apr 16th 2012, 02:39 PM
D'ya know that Brother Yun (the Heavenly Man) is touring the United States this week? (http://backtojerusalem.com/v3/2012/04/back-to-jerusalem-april-2012-newsletter/) I rolled my eyes when I saw some of the organizations he's partnered with here, and I think he's smart enough to know they're not perfect. I don't go to many charismatic or "prophetic" churches because I'm not confident I can stand firm against deception. But Yun is tested and confident. Anywhere God leads he will go. I could use more of that confidence.

That man can teach any of us about faith. I pray God uses him mightily to get people to understand what real faith in Christ is really all about.

I know that prayer for the persecuted believers is important, as is support. However, I do also believe that when it comes to faith ... they should be praying for the rest of us because they understand it, and have it, in a far greater measure than those of us who live in relative comfort and ease. They've already lived out what so many of us are (either secretly or overtly) terrified about.

I do believe we can have unity now. Why wait until we get to heaven? All we gotta do is make Jesus our priority and lay aside the secondary things that we disagree on.

So ... who's first? :)

Colight
Apr 16th 2012, 03:00 PM
Ever think separation is a Great thing?
It allows for the bad element to not infest the entire christian population.
Separation is also the essence of Freedom, when Christians tried to UNIFY last time, a thing called the INQUISITION occurred.

Also Separation Is part of the plan of God, he has pastors with only him self over them, running many different flocks.
When ever denominations or some power tries to place them self between the pastor and God... Corruption, tyranny, self righeouness, and crusader arrogance starts to occur.

Therefore Separation is wonderful.

little watchman
Apr 16th 2012, 03:12 PM
I hear that when you come together as a church there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. For there need to also be heresies among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. (1 Corinthians 11:18-19)

Dani H
Apr 16th 2012, 03:24 PM
Christ is not divided.

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2012, 04:07 PM
Yep! So can satan which is why he sows so much division!

1 Cor 11:18-20
18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.
NASU

God uses that division to show us who are approved. Paul said there must be factions. We won't ever change that. But what we can do, is allow God to make evident to us who is approved. Without the factions, it would not be as evident.

little watchman
Apr 16th 2012, 04:46 PM
A bit more about Brother Yun and the Chinese house churches. They also went through the struggle of defending the gospel against error while including as many as possible in the church, and because they did this mostly independently of the West, they produced a very interesting statement of faith. (http://www.backtojerusalem.com/Articles/Statement of Faith.pdf) When I started writing my own statement of faith, I leaned more on theirs than anyone else's.

Dani H
Apr 16th 2012, 10:12 PM
1 Cor 11:18-20
18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.
NASU

God uses that division to show us who are approved. Paul said there must be factions. We won't ever change that. But what we can do, is allow God to make evident to us who is approved. Without the factions, it would not be as evident.

I read that as a rebuke rather than a supportive statement. It basically means that the church was being divisive and that testing would come to bring truth out. Why would Paul preface that statement with him not being pleased with what he was about to say? Their behavior was harmful, and Paul didn't like it.

You can interpret that as you wish of course, but that's what I see, and in context it makes sense.

However, we'll agree to disagree and maintain unity that way, yes? :)

-SEEKING-
Apr 17th 2012, 02:18 AM
This came to mind today.

Philippians 1:27 "Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel" - NASB

And this one as well

Philippians 2:1-6 "1 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped"

Brother Mark
Apr 17th 2012, 02:51 PM
I read that as a rebuke rather than a supportive statement. It basically means that the church was being divisive and that testing would come to bring truth out. Why would Paul preface that statement with him not being pleased with what he was about to say? Their behavior was harmful, and Paul didn't like it.

You can interpret that as you wish of course, but that's what I see, and in context it makes sense.

However, we'll agree to disagree and maintain unity that way, yes? :)

Of course it was a rebuke. But that doesn't change the point. There must be factions so that we can see who is approved. That doesn't make it 'right' or 'good'. But it serves a purpose. There is a reason why God allows heresies to even exists in our sinful world and it's so we can see who is approved.

For instance, one gets up and teaches a teaching, then he is full of bitterness, and anger and malice. Someone who is unlearned may not know that it is a heresy. But they can recognize the fruit. In this way, they know he is not approved and should not be followed.

We will not rid the church of heresies and factions. However, there is this to be said for unity...

Ps 133

133 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
2 It is like the precious oil upon the head,
Coming down upon the beard,
Even Aaron's beard,
Coming down upon the edge of his robes.
3 It is like the dew of Hermon
Coming down upon the mountains of Zion;
For there the Lord commanded the blessing life forever.
NASU

There's a special anointing on a unified body. I would also add that unity does not mean uniformity.

Colight
Apr 17th 2012, 02:54 PM
I read that as a rebuke rather than a supportive statement. It basically means that the church was being divisive and that testing would come to bring truth out. Why would Paul preface that statement with him not being pleased with what he was about to say? Their behavior was harmful, and Paul didn't like it.

You can interpret that as you wish of course, but that's what I see, and in context it makes sense.

However, we'll agree to disagree and maintain unity that way, yes? :)

If there are divisions with in one Church, it is a sign of a weak pastor, he needs to start tossing the troublemakers to save the rest of the flock.

Divisions in line with different churches are not of the same mind, is a great thing. This allows for people to seek those that meet their need. We are each own own priest therefore our victory or defeat as a believer is upon us. Choose wisely.

Brother Mark
Apr 17th 2012, 03:05 PM
If there are divisions with in one Church, it is a sign of a weak pastor, he needs to start tossing the troublemakers to save the rest of the flock.

Divisions in line with different churches are not of the same mind, is a great thing. This allows for people to seek those that meet their need. We are each own own priest therefore our victory or defeat as a believer is upon us. Choose wisely.

Why didn't Jesus toss Judas from His church?

Dani H
Apr 17th 2012, 03:10 PM
Ps 133

133 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
2 It is like the precious oil upon the head,
Coming down upon the beard,
Even Aaron's beard,
Coming down upon the edge of his robes.
3 It is like the dew of Hermon
Coming down upon the mountains of Zion;
For there the Lord commanded the blessing life forever.
NASU

There's a special anointing on a unified body. I would also add that unity does not mean uniformity.

Yes! My husband and I are unified ... but we are definitely not the same! I believe unity happens when we come together over a common goal and set all other things aside that hinder this goal. It doesn't mean those things are not important; it just means they do not contribute to the goal and are therefore secondary. It means that in the name of the greater purpose, we put those secondary things in submission and we accept and respect that the other believes differently and let God decide what matters and what doesn't.

I think there is this thing about "believing right" that people get hung up on and try to push into every corner of every person's belief system.

We are called to believe in Jesus Himself. That is "believing right" far as I'm concerned. I also believe that He is well big enough to iron out the details if we join together over our faith in Christ alone.

Brother Mark
Apr 17th 2012, 03:25 PM
Yes! My husband and I are unified ... but we are definitely not the same! I believe unity happens when we come together over a common goal and set all other things aside that hinder this goal. It doesn't mean those things are not important; it just means they do not contribute to the goal and are therefore secondary. It means that in the name of the greater purpose, we put those secondary things in submission and we accept and respect that the other believes differently and let God decide what matters and what doesn't.

I think there is this thing about "believing right" that people get hung up on and try to push into every corner of every person's belief system.

We are called to believe in Jesus Himself. That is "believing right" far as I'm concerned. I also believe that He is well big enough to iron out the details if we join together over our faith in Christ alone.

I like the verse you have quoted about preaching Christ and Him crucified. Like you have said, that's not to say the rest of the truth that God gives us in unimportant.

I think your point is well illustrated with the adulterous woman. The pharisees loved the law more than her and were willing to use the law to kill her. Jesus, recognizing the law was given for our sake, handled it correctly.

That said, there is much room in the church for debate. For instance, Paul and Barnabas had serious disagreements and it broke up their fellowship. Paul took Silas and the church approved him and Silas and went on a missionary journey. Barnabas wasn't willing to leave John Mark behind and Paul wasn't willing to take him. Barnabas took John Mark and the church did not endorse them. But later, Paul wrote to "Send John Mark to me for he is useful to me in the ministry". Barnabas was a father in the faith. When few would help Paul, Barnabas did. When Paul would not trust John Mark again, Barnabas was willing to walk with him. However, Paul was called to be a missionary. Barnabas ministry was in raising up believers and fathering them. Each tried to work together and be faithful to their calling but they could not! This was a wise split and the kingdom of God benefited greatly from it.

We often get in trouble when we try to put our calling on other people. It causes conflict. Paul couldn't be Barnabas and vice versa. We are not brick makers! For that is what Israel did in bondage! We can't use our tools to make bricks out of stones. It defiles them!

Ex 20:25
25 'If you make an altar of stone for Me, you shall not build it of cut stones, for if you wield your tool on it, you will profane it.
NASU

Another time Jesus said something like "I would like to tell you more but you are not yet ready." Sometimes, people just aren't ready for other things. Paul recognized that with Corinth and spoke of preaching Christ and Him crucified. He also spoke about how we could be deceived, like Eve, away from the simplicity of devotion to Christ. But let's keep in mind these things were written to carnal believers.

Colight
Apr 17th 2012, 03:38 PM
Why didn't Jesus toss Judas from His church?

The Church started at Pentecost...

Judas was dead before that date.

Brother Mark
Apr 17th 2012, 03:45 PM
The Church started at Pentecost...

Judas was dead before that date.

Technicality. Why didn't Jesus throw out Judas from his group of believers who he was training? Judas was a thief and the others knew about it. Certainly Jesus was functioning as a pastor over his group of disciples.

Colight
Apr 19th 2012, 09:14 AM
Technicality. Why didn't Jesus throw out Judas from his group of believers who he was training? Judas was a thief and the others knew about it. Certainly Jesus was functioning as a pastor over his group of disciples.

What exactly is your point?
Christ had a reason to keep Judas, our pastors not being Christ.. need to toss the trouble makers..
Or do you want wolves among the sheep, under cutting the authority of the pastor and spreading other doctrines... is that your point?

This very Chat board will cast off those who make trouble... why is it not ok for a Church to do the same thing?