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SirToady
Apr 28th 2012, 12:32 AM
Prelude to the Rapture

Luke 21
24. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Romans 11
25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


Daniel 9:
24. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



Daniel 11: 36 And the king (antichrist) shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.


Isaiah 28: 22. Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.


2 Peter 3:
3. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


The Rapture of those in Christ occurs before, or at the time the Antichrist is revealed – perhaps even before the seven-year treaty is signed, and certainly prior to the time of the fullness of the Gentiles, when the desolations are determined, and the Day of the Lord is at hand.

Rapture: a catching away, a gathering together, the assembly.

Who are those in Christ?
1 Corinthians 15
1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


This is the foundation of Christian Faith (the Gospel) – either you truly believe (as with the faith of a child) unconditionally - or you do not.

In fact we have more than just the four Gospels:

Acts 1
2. Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3. To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

1 Corinthians 15
5. And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6. After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Why would all these people lie?

In 70 A.D. General Titus (future Emperor of Rome) did not covenant, negotiate, or confirm anything except the destruction of Jerusalem by cause of a Jewish rebellion beginning in 66 A.D.
Titus prevailed against the Jews – period, there was no Rapture, falling away, caught up together, assembling, no Son of Man appearing in the clouds, no Kingdom established, no 1000 year reign of Christ, no everlasting dominion, no two witnesses or satellites so that the whole world would know about and celebrate their deaths (Revelation 11:3-10), no Prince of Princes…. Our understanding may not be God’s understanding, but these things and much more will happen because God does not lie.

There had to be another Israel (Ezekiel 37:21-25), another Jerusalem, another prince (antichrist), another form of the Roman Empire (E.U.? – Daniel 7:7-8, 23), a reason for a seven-year peace, and yes at some point – there is another Temple (Revelation 11:1-2) prior to the 3 ½ year (42 month) midpoint of the Tribulation where it also will be eventually destroyed. This time however, in the Great Tribulation (last 3 ½ years) what has been determined shall be poured upon the (those who) desolate. Hallelujah!

Israel, among a lot of others is going to be suckered by the antichrist into believing that HE is the Messiah – by means of a peace treaty that establishes/expands the protective borders in the perceived new Kingdom guaranteeing their safety, peace, and permission to build and practice in the third Temple.

The Dome of the Rock will be obliterated either by;


Craft of the antichrist himself,
An act of God such as an earthquake, meteor, etc…
An enemy missile attack,
An overzealous Judaist, Christian, or a radical Islamist (a Judas of their faith).




The Rapture

I Thessalonians 4 – First of the letters that the Apostle Paul writes.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

the trump of God perhaps as Come up hither such as in Revelation 4:1.

17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

II Thessalonians 2
1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I Corinthians 15
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Ephesians 1
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times (Luke 21:24) he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Hebrews 10
25. Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Hebrews 11
5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 12
22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect (translated),

Acts 1
11. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Genesis 49
10. The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

jesse
Apr 28th 2012, 04:05 AM
For the most part I agree.

I would add that it is called the "time of Jacob's trouble" not the time of "the church's trouble".

quiet dove
Apr 28th 2012, 01:51 PM
Hi Sir Toady...nice post...but do bear in mind that those who disagree are not saying the Bible or anyone is lying, they just understand and interpret differently. :)

Love Fountain
May 1st 2012, 01:19 PM
Rapture: a catching away, a gathering together, the assembly.





The Rapture

I Thessalonians 4 – First of the letters that the Apostle Paul writes.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

the trump of God perhaps as Come up hither such as in Revelation 4:1.

17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

II Thessalonians 2
1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I Corinthians 15
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Ephesians 1
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times (Luke 21:24) he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Hebrews 10
25. Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Hebrews 11
5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 12
22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect (translated),

Acts 1
11. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Genesis 49
10. The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.



Imho there is no secret rapture and imho not one verse above even speaks about a secret rapture.

Did anyone know that Moses is a god?

Ex 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Moses is not a god but it sure looks like it in Exodus 7:1.

Same with the secret rapture theory in the quoted OP verses above being used to support a secret rapture theory. Imho not one single verse is about a secret rapture in the whole Bible.

Changing from the flesh body to the spiritual body is not a secret rapture, imho according to what is written!

Christians are to put on the armour of God to stand and fight as written in Eph 6! There are no wings in the armour of God!

Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Christians are to make their stand! No theories, no secret, no escape artist!! We are surrounded by the cloud of witnesses so that we learn how to stand! They are written of throughout the whole Bible of how they made their stand for an example to Christians of how to make a stand!

Heb 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.



Through faith Christians are to make a stand!!


Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Bless you,
Love Fountain

SirToady
May 1st 2012, 02:52 PM
The Christian program is different from the Jewish program.

quiet dove
May 1st 2012, 02:59 PM
Rapture is not "escape artist", it is a beautiful and glorious promise that none in Christ Jesus will suffer the wrath of God, not even in this life. The verses quoted do not disprove a rapture nor does the issue of standing strong in this life negate that those in Christ Jesus will not suffer the wrath of God. We do not stand strong against the wrath of God...know man can or will. We stand strong against the wiles of the Devil...the disobedience of the flesh and against sinful desires...the wrath of Satan....but we, nor anyone, will be standing strong against the wrath of God.

And God, our Father, the one we cry Abba Father to...because of who He is, not who we are....because He has made us, through His Son, to be heirs, and because His Son has already paid for our sins and thus the wrath we deserve...would be all contradicting to who God is, what God is...who His Son is, what His Son is, and what His Son has done....if God turned around and left those in His Son, to face His wrath.

Not to mention the "wrath of the Lamb" (Rev 6:16)...to think that Jesus would pour out wrath upon His Bride is, for me, not comprehensible. To trust Him enough, believe, and place faith in His having paid in full for sins...to create a new creature...born again....is also trusting that in Him we are cleansed and will not be at the receiving end of His wrath...not in the next life, not in this one.

We put on the armor of God to stand against the flesh...the devil...the world...but not to stand against the wrath of God.

Beloved65
May 24th 2012, 09:11 AM
No I don't believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

But most in my group think that Jesus fulfilled the 70 year prophecy of Daniel.
Daniel 9:27
And He shall confirm the Covenant with many for one week: and in midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations He shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Many non pre-trib, believe the He here is Jesus Christ.

For we read in the Old Testament how Christ will bring a new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Malachi 3:1; Isaiah 42:6-7; Zechariah 9:11). For Christ started His ministry at age 30 (Luke 3:23), this would be the beginning of the New Covenant for the seven years, ,solely with the nation of Israel/Judaea. So most scholars agree that Jesus ministry was 3 and a half years. So right in the middle of the 70th weeks, Christ announced His Blood offering confirming the New Testament--Covenant (Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:19-20; I Corinthians 11:24-25). The remainder of the week the gospel message was given only to the Jews. For Daniel 9:24 tells us these 70 weeks are upon the Jewish people.


So what happens at the end of the 70th weeks the gospel message was open up to the Gentiles. For Peter witness to Cornelius around 34AD, and what did the Jewish Believers say, will just look at Acts 11:18.

So many will say the OT sacrifice continued, but if one reads the Book of Hebrews especially Hebrews 10 you will see the abomination this had become to God, and the Jewish nation was given a nearly 40 years period to repent or even seal their wrath before the consummation of
Daniel 9:27. Paul spoke of this in I Thessalonians 2:14-16.

This the Historical view which was taught predominantily in churches until the last 200 years.

DurbanDude
May 24th 2012, 10:39 AM
No I don't believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

But most in my group think that Jesus fulfilled the 70 year prophecy of Daniel.
Daniel 9:27
And He shall confirm the Covenant with many for one week: and in midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations He shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Many non pre-trib, believe the He here is Jesus Christ.

For we read in the Old Testament how Christ will bring a new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Malachi 3:1; Isaiah 42:6-7; Zechariah 9:11). For Christ started His ministry at age 30 (Luke 3:23), this would be the beginning of the New Covenant for the seven years, ,solely with the nation of Israel/Judaea. So most scholars agree that Jesus ministry was 3 and a half years. So right in the middle of the 70th weeks, Christ announced His Blood offering confirming the New Testament--Covenant (Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:19-20; I Corinthians 11:24-25). The remainder of the week the gospel message was given only to the Jews. For Daniel 9:24 tells us these 70 weeks are upon the Jewish people.


So what happens at the end of the 70th weeks the gospel message was open up to the Gentiles. For Peter witness to Cornelius around 34AD, and what did the Jewish Believers say, will just look at Acts 11:18.

So many will say the OT sacrifice continued, but if one reads the Book of Hebrews especially Hebrews 10 you will see the abomination this had become to God, and the Jewish nation was given a nearly 40 years period to repent or even seal their wrath before the consummation of
Daniel 9:27. Paul spoke of this in I Thessalonians 2:14-16.

This the Historical view which was taught predominantily in churches until the last 200 years.

Despite the possibility that Daniel 9:27 has a historical fulfilment, the bible is full of verses elsewhere that point to a future 3.5 year period of tribulation. Not 7 years, but 3.5 years.These other 3.5 year periods do not have an easy historical interpretation, attempts to place Daniel 7, Daniel 12, Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13 into a complete historical context invariably fail. This period described by Jesus himself in Matthew 24 as a great tribulation period, starts with the abomination and ends with the second coming.

John 8:32
May 24th 2012, 10:48 AM
Despite the possibility that Daniel 9:27 has a historical fulfilment, the bible is full of verses elsewhere that point to a future 3.5 year period of tribulation. Not 7 years, but 3.5 years.These other 3.5 year periods do not have an easy historical interpretation, attempts to place Daniel 7, Daniel 12, Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13 into a complete historical context invariably fail. This period described by Jesus himself in Matthew 24 as a great tribulation period, starts with the abomination and ends with the second coming.

Exactly.

(15 characters)

the rookie
May 24th 2012, 06:53 PM
Rapture is not "escape artist", it is a beautiful and glorious promise that none in Christ Jesus will suffer the wrath of God, not even in this life. The verses quoted do not disprove a rapture nor does the issue of standing strong in this life negate that those in Christ Jesus will not suffer the wrath of God. We do not stand strong against the wrath of God...know man can or will. We stand strong against the wiles of the Devil...the disobedience of the flesh and against sinful desires...the wrath of Satan....but we, nor anyone, will be standing strong against the wrath of God.

This premise presupposes that we have to be "off-planet" when the wrath of God strikes the nations of the earth. The book of Revelation - particularly in the trumpet judgments of Rev. 8-9 - seem to parallel beautifully the plagues of Egypt. I don't recall Israelites, or Moses, being troubled by their geographical proximity to the judgments of God upon Egypt. In fact, when the most intense plague (angel of death) comes, the blood of the lamb causes that judgment to "pass over" them. They didn't need to be removed from the earth during that judgment; they needed to be "covered". Zephaniah 2:3 tells us to believe for the same thing during a future, comprehensive, global outpouring of God's wrath upon the nations: "it may be that you will be hidden (covered) in the day of the Lord's anger."

We are not appointed for wrath, yes - but that doesn't demand or necessitate that we are appointed for "removal from the earth" during the outpouring of that wrath. That would be unprecedented in redemptive history. "The just shall live by faith," as Yaweh spoke to the prophet Habbakuk - who was sure that the righteous would perish with the wicked during the outpouring of God's wrath upon Israel; this speaks of God's ability (as the prophet witnesses in the vision of Hab. 3) to apply His judgments with surgical precision, striking the wicked and sparing the righteous (thus the celebration of the righteous on the earth in Malachi 4:2-3.


Not to mention the "wrath of the Lamb" (Rev 6:16)...to think that Jesus would pour out wrath upon His Bride is, for me, not comprehensible. To trust Him enough, believe, and place faith in His having paid in full for sins...to create a new creature...born again....is also trusting that in Him we are cleansed and will not be at the receiving end of His wrath...not in the next life, not in this one.

Of course. But again, that doesn't demand removal from the earth, just divine protection. Revelation 3 - the Philadelphian believers are spared from the shaking, but not by being removed from the earth...by divine protection. The believers in Smyrna perish - but not by the wrath of God; but from the wrath of wicked and unreasonable men. The number of martyrs throughout the book of Revelation speak to a church that stands victoriously against darkness and oppression (Rev. 12:11) while also providing a context for God to righteously avenge their deaths (Rev. 6:9-11) and reward their stand (Rev. 20:4). There's great reward awaiting those who love Jesus who are on the earth during the great trouble (Rev. 14:13).

We put on the armor of God to stand against the flesh...the devil...the world...but not to stand against the wrath of God.[/QUOTE]

quiet dove
May 25th 2012, 12:01 AM
This premise presupposes that we have to be "off-planet" when the wrath of God strikes the nations of the earth. The book of Revelation - particularly in the trumpet judgments of Rev. 8-9 - seem to parallel beautifully the plagues of Egypt. I don't recall Israelites, or Moses, being troubled by their geographical proximity to the judgments of God upon Egypt. In fact, when the most intense plague (angel of death) comes, the blood of the lamb causes that judgment to "pass over" them. They didn't need to be removed from the earth during that judgment; they needed to be "covered". Zephaniah 2:3 tells us to believe for the same thing during a future, comprehensive, global outpouring of God's wrath upon the nations: "it may be that you will be hidden (covered) in the day of the Lord's anger."

We are not appointed for wrath, yes - but that doesn't demand or necessitate that we are appointed for "removal from the earth" during the outpouring of that wrath. That would be unprecedented in redemptive history. "The just shall live by faith," as Yaweh spoke to the prophet Habbakuk - who was sure that the righteous would perish with the wicked during the outpouring of God's wrath upon Israel; this speaks of God's ability (as the prophet witnesses in the vision of Hab. 3) to apply His judgments with surgical precision, striking the wicked and sparing the righteous (thus the celebration of the righteous on the earth in Malachi 4:2-3.

Of course. But again, that doesn't demand removal from the earth, just divine protection. Revelation 3 - the Philadelphian believers are spared from the shaking, but not by being removed from the earth...by divine protection. The believers in Smyrna perish - but not by the wrath of God; but from the wrath of wicked and unreasonable men. The number of martyrs throughout the book of Revelation speak to a church that stands victoriously against darkness and oppression (Rev. 12:11) while also providing a context for God to righteously avenge their deaths (Rev. 6:9-11) and reward their stand (Rev. 20:4). There's great reward awaiting those who love Jesus who are on the earth during the great trouble (Rev. 14:13).

I don't really think I am presupposing that the righteous must be removed from the earth to be protected. God has shown that He can protect the righteous in the midst of, or He can stick them in a big boat, or that He will grab them by the hand and drag them out of the way...But those methods don't mean that He also cannot remove them from the earth either...:spin:

My point was basically that God is awesome and the righteous have nothing to fear from God, which would include those, who after the rapture, come to Christ. So why would any of us in Christ now live in any fear of being at the receiving end of His wrath with or without a rapture...I just believe there will be a, before God's wrath starts, rapture. And that it is a glorious promise and hope....in other words, it is joy. ...God is awesome and such a promise should be something, amongst the other many reasons, that directs our hearts toward Him at all times, every moment of our lives.

The last days events are wrath, but the events also seem to start slow and then escalate...designed to bring men still on the earth to saving faith as opposed to just bringing about complete destruction of the men on earth, though that will happen to the unrighteous by the time it is all over. That process is not needed for the Bride because she already has saving faith in Christ.

the rookie
May 25th 2012, 12:16 AM
I don't really think I am presupposing that the righteous must be removed from the earth to be protected.

Technically, you are - since that was the reasoning you used to support the logic (or, the "why") of a rapture. Without that reasoning (and, with much evidence to the contrary that believers are in fact on the earth during the time of future shaking), it becomes really hard to evidentially support a pre-trouble "snatching away" of the saints.


God has shown that He can protect the righteous in the midst of, or He can stick them in a big boat, or that He will grab them by the hand and drag them out of the way...But those methods don't mean that He also cannot remove them from the earth either...:spin:

No, they don't mean that He can't. Technically, God the Sovereign One can do (almost) anything. He will not violate His nature or His word, and is constrained by His goodness - that's the "almost". Yet, when it comes to judgment and shaking, while He is free to do "anything", He actually tells us in advance what He is going to do (by scriptural pattern, scriptural precedent, and scriptural prophecy)...so that we can prepare in advance and come to full agreement with Him and his leadership / plan.

So, while God could snatch the Church away before the trouble comes, there really isn't much evidence that He has ever done that in the past (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Rome all serving as a pattern of His leadership over nations and peoples in times of trouble / wrath); the scriptural pattern is, as you noted, overwhelmingly in favor of believers being protected during times of shaking and even serving and partnering with Him in the execution of His plan (i.e., in the case of Moses). There is no pattern in redemptive history for God-induced abandonment of people under judgment. Neither is there any clear prophecy that tells us to expect this.

God's plan is much more astonishing - think Jim Eliot on a global level (martyrdom of believers that leads to mass conversion); think book of Acts on a global level (signs and wonders through believers that leads to mass conversion and persecution); think book of Exodus on a global level (confrontation between God and His enemies to deliver Israel). All three patterns of scripture demand our presence on the earth, not away from it.

the rookie
May 25th 2012, 12:22 AM
The last days events are wrath, but the events also seem to start slow and then escalate...designed to bring men still on the earth to saving faith as opposed to just bringing about complete destruction of the men on earth, though that will happen to the unrighteous by the time it is all over.

The last days aren't only wrath. There's also glory. Consider Revelation 14 - there's a harvest of souls for Jesus in there, not just a harvest of the grapes of wrath. Consider Revelation 12 - there's great victory in overcoming the evil one in his "finest" hour, whether one lives or dies. The theme of Revelation (repeated often in Rev. 2-3) is "overcoming" not "escaping".


That process is not needed for the Bride because she already has saving faith in Christ.

That process is not needed "for" the Bride; but it is necessary "that" the Bride participate fully (in full and joyful agreement and intercession) - not watch from a distance. The Bride is for Jesus...and, for the earth. Her victory is His glory; Her escape (besides being described nowhere in the book of Revelation or elsewhere) would bring Him no glory. It's our response in the midst of great peril and trouble that glorifies the Lamb (the theme of the book, interconnected with "overcoming") and shakes the earth.

claybevan
May 25th 2012, 12:30 AM
[QUOTE=SirToady;2838708]Prelude to the Rapture



[

The Dome of the Rock will be obliterated either by;


Craft of the antichrist himself,
An act of God such as an earthquake, meteor, etc…
An enemy missile attack,
An overzealous Judaist, Christian, or a radical Islamist (a Judas of their faith).


Sorry to have just picked out part of your thread but have you heard of the idea that there is enough room to build the New Temple without the destruction of the Dome on the Rock, it's an interesting thought and adds another possibility.

quiet dove
May 25th 2012, 12:49 AM
I just messed up and lost my post...got a start over...

claybevan
May 25th 2012, 12:53 AM
Technically, you are - since that was the reasoning you used to support the logic (or, the "why") of a rapture. Without that reasoning (and, with much evidence to the contrary that believers are in fact on the earth during the time of future shaking), it becomes really hard to evidentially support a pre-trouble "snatching away" of the saints.




No, they don't mean that He can't. Technically, God the Sovereign One can do (almost) anything. He will not violate His nature or His word, and is constrained by His goodness - that's the "almost". Yet, when it comes to judgment and shaking, while He is free to do "anything", He actually tells us in advance what He is going to do (by scriptural pattern, scriptural precedent, and scriptural prophecy)...so that we can prepare in advance and come to full agreement with Him and his leadership / plan.

So, while God could snatch the Church away before the trouble comes, there really isn't much evidence that He has ever done that in the past (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Rome all serving as a pattern of His leadership over nations and peoples in times of trouble / wrath); the scriptural pattern is, as you noted, overwhelmingly in favor of believers being protected during times of shaking and even serving and partnering with Him in the execution of His plan (i.e., in the case of Moses). There is no pattern in redemptive history for God-induced abandonment of people under judgment. Neither is there any clear prophecy that tells us to expect this.

God's plan is much more astonishing - think Jim Eliot on a global level (martyrdom of believers that leads to mass conversion); think book of Acts on a global level (signs and wonders through believers that leads to mass conversion and persecution); think book of Exodus on a global level (confrontation between God and His enemies to deliver Israel). All three patterns of scripture demand our presence on the earth, not away from it.

I agree and could never get my head around the fact that the 'catching away' wouldn't come before the apostasy and the revealing of the anti christ.
If we are out of it before then, who will be left to fall away and if the anti christ isn't revealed until 3 1/2 years in, we must at least be around until that time.
I think we are in it for the duration, that's why we have to be so well grounded in the word ( something that this site for me has been really valuable in, nothing like a good debate to make you do your homework]
If we are the last generation, what a privilege but God help us! we are sure going to need it.

quiet dove
May 25th 2012, 01:18 AM
Technically, you are - since that was the reasoning you used to support the logic (or, the "why") of a rapture. Without that reasoning (and, with much evidence to the contrary that believers are in fact on the earth during the time of future shaking), it becomes really hard to evidentially support a pre-trouble "snatching away" of the saints.
I don't believe it presupposing that the righteous, those in Christ, who have already been saved from the wrath of God, will suffer the wrath of God. How God removed the righteous from the place of His wrath is secondary to that He will remove them.



No, they don't mean that He can't. Technically, God the Sovereign One can do (almost) anything. He will not violate His nature or His word, and is constrained by His goodness - that's the "almost". Yet, when it comes to judgment and shaking, while He is free to do "anything", He actually tells us in advance what He is going to do (by scriptural pattern, scriptural precedent, and scriptural prophecy)...so that we can prepare in advance and come to full agreement with Him and his leadership / plan.
Agreed, but I disagree that Revelation speaks of a shaking of the righteous.



So, while God could snatch the Church away before the trouble comes, there really isn't much evidence that He has ever done that in the past (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Rome all serving as a pattern of His leadership over nations and peoples in times of trouble / wrath); the scriptural pattern is, as you noted, overwhelmingly in favor of believers being protected during times of shaking and even serving and partnering with Him in the execution of His plan (i.e., in the case of Moses). There is no pattern in redemptive history for God-induced abandonment of people under judgment. Neither is there any clear prophecy that tells us to expect this.
I don't believe Revelation speaks of anything less than God's wrath upon those who have rejected His Son. But still, in His mercy, any who come to His Son, will be saved. The removal of the righteous prior to His wrath is not saying He then abandons those under judgment...it is saying those in Christ will not be those under judgment. But Revelation seems to make clear, imho, that during that time of His wrath, He still presents the Gospel message to men....so He is not abandoning the lost, those under His judgment and/or wrath. The escalation of the severity of the events allows for the drawing of men to His Son, and then the protecting of those who respond from further wrath.


God's plan is much more astonishing - think Jim Eliot on a global level (martyrdom of believers that leads to mass conversion); think book of Acts on a global level (signs and wonders through believers that leads to mass conversion and persecution); think book of Exodus on a global level (confrontation between God and His enemies to deliver Israel). All three patterns of scripture demand our presence on the earth, not away from it.
Aren't these things to already be what the Bride is doing and on a global level? Are we to wait to do these things later, during the end events described in Revelation? While there isn't martyrdom on a global level, it is world wide with the exception of the West which may very well be rapidly approaching. But that still does not mean we have entered the time frame described in Revelation.

quiet dove
May 25th 2012, 01:24 AM
The last days aren't only wrath. There's also glory. Consider Revelation 14 - there's a harvest of souls for Jesus in there, not just a harvest of the grapes of wrath. Consider Revelation 12 - there's great victory in overcoming the evil one in his "finest" hour, whether one lives or dies. The theme of Revelation (repeated often in Rev. 2-3) is "overcoming" not "escaping".



That process is not needed "for" the Bride; but it is necessary "that" the Bride participate fully (in full and joyful agreement and intercession) - not watch from a distance. The Bride is for Jesus...and, for the earth. Her victory is His glory; Her escape (besides being described nowhere in the book of Revelation or elsewhere) would bring Him no glory. It's our response in the midst of great peril and trouble that glorifies the Lamb (the theme of the book, interconnected with "overcoming") and shakes the earth.

When it comes to over coming, are we not already, to daily, be overcoming? Why would this overcoming be something expected only during the events described in Revelation. Haven't many millions through out history, over come? Does over coming only apply to those who are martyred for their faith and if so, does that mean the many faithful who God did not cal on to die for their faith also did not over come? If you or I were killed in a car accident today and thus not be called upon to die for our faith, does that then mean we did not over come but we escaped?

Our response in the midst of great peril does not require the events of Revelation, but should be daily from the moment we are saved....as should our over coming. There is no over coming the wrath of God....only over coming the world, which we should be doing daily by the walking in the Spirit, in obedience.

quiet dove
May 25th 2012, 01:32 AM
that's why we have to be so well grounded in the word ( something that this site for me has been really valuable in, nothing like a good debate to make you do your homework]


Your exactly correct...and also disagreement/debate makes us dig and thus gain further understanding to be well grounded, knowing why we believe as we do

the rookie
May 25th 2012, 01:38 AM
I don't believe it presupposing that the righteous, those in Christ, who have already been saved from the wrath of God, will suffer the wrath of God. How God removed the righteous from the place of His wrath is secondary to that He will remove them.

You're making, in essence, two different arguments - which is making you argue a bit (accidentally) circularly. Argument #1 - those who have been saved from wrath will not suffer wrath. Argument #2 - they will not suffer wrath because they will be removed from it by rapture.

"That" He will protect them from His wrath is sure; "How" is the debate. The problem is, you can't simply assert that removing the church from the earth prior to the coming trouble is the only means of protection for the church from His wrath. You've already conceded that He doesn't need to remove us to protect us. Now that we've established that, we can look for examples from the past that demonstrate God's leadership over the elect during times of shaking. How were they protected? Were they ever wholly removed from it? The answer there is, again, "never". So yes, we have multiple options for how God can protect us during the outpouring of His wrath - but the pattern of redemptive history effectively removes one of the options from the table (removal from the earth). That leaves us with prophetic warning / promise - yet there as well, an option has been removed from the table. In fact, I could fill this thread with "the earth filled Gentiles worshipping / singing / praying" passages from the prophets that were directly connected to the Second Coming / Day of the Lord (Isa. 42 and Mal. 1:11 are two great passages).



Agreed, but I disagree that Revelation speaks of a shaking of the righteous.

Daniel 7 is pretty clear about it; Daniel 11:33-35 through 12:3 is as well; Revelation uses much of Daniel's prophecies. Revelation 12 is clear as well; Revelation 14 (which I referenced earlier) is also pretty straightforward; Rev. 7 couldn't be more clear about the righteous who come out of the Great Tribulation...


I don't believe Revelation speaks of anything less than God's wrath upon those who have rejected His Son. But still, in His mercy, any who come to His Son, will be saved. The removal of the righteous prior to His wrath is not saying He then abandons those under judgment...it is saying those in Christ will not be those under judgment. But Revelation seems to make clear, imho, that during that time of His wrath, He still presents the Gospel message to men....so He is not abandoning the lost, those under His judgment and/or wrath. The escalation of the severity of the events allows for the drawing of men to His Son, and then the protecting of those who respond from further wrath.

Yes, the "He" who presents the Gospel message to men is "we". It's the church's finest hour :)

We also pray as well (cf. Rev. 5:8; 8:1-5)

Isaiah 42 - we sing as well - from the islands, coastlands, mountains, etc.

Isaiah 24 tells us the song: "Glory to the Righteous One!"



Aren't these things to already be what the Bride is doing and on a global level? Are we to wait to do these things later, during the end events described in Revelation? While there isn't martyrdom on a global level, it is world wide with the exception of the West which may very well be rapidly approaching. But that still does not mean we have entered the time frame described in Revelation.


Yes, we're doing it already....sort of. The maturity of the Bride and the "fullness of the Gentiles" is the issue. The Bride that has "made herself ready" according to Rev. 19...we're just getting started, but there's a mature Bride coming (cf. Jn. 17, Eph. 4 - same love, same doctrine, same Jesus)

the rookie
May 25th 2012, 01:44 AM
When it comes to over coming, are we not already, to daily, be overcoming?

Of course. David killed lions and bears before taking on Goliath...then he had to take on Saul. Each stage prepares us for the next, more intense phase.



Why would this overcoming be something expected only during the events described in Revelation. Haven't many millions through out history, over come?

It's not. Didn't say that it did :)


Does over coming only apply to those who are martyred for their faith and if so, does that mean the many faithful who God did not cal on to die for their faith also did not over come?

Don't know. I know that Revelation 17 differentiates between "martyrs" and "saints" who die at the hands of the Harlot.


If you or I were killed in a car accident today and thus not be called upon to die for our faith, does that then mean we did not over come but we escaped?

Don't know. Now you're speculating, not necessarily breaking down Bible passages or concepts. There are rewards for overcoming internal and external pressure (Rev. 2-3) - he brings them with Him at His return (Rev. 22) - and we will be blessed if we make it to that point in history (Rev. 14).

The rewards for overcoming are available to every generation of faith. But the book of Revelation is primarily speaking to the generation of the Lord's return when it is most difficult to overcome.


Our response in the midst of great peril does not require the events of Revelation, but should be daily from the moment we are saved....as should our over coming. There is no over coming the wrath of God....only over coming the world, which we should be doing daily by the walking in the Spirit, in obedience.

Didn't say that it did :)

But if "overcoming" not "escaping" is true today; and that "overcoming" life is a witness to the lost in our day....why would the pattern of redemptive history so radically change in the last three and a half years...when the nations need an overcoming witness of love for Jesus most?

quiet dove
May 25th 2012, 02:36 AM
Of course. David killed lions and bears before taking on Goliath...then he had to take on Saul. Each stage prepares us for the next, more intense phase.
Agreed, but that does not mean we are being prepared to endure God's wrath, which is what I believe Revelation describes



It's not. Didn't say that it did :)
No, but also then being present on the earth then during the time of Revelation has nothing to do with believers, or the Church, overcoming, because as individuals we are to do that from the moment we are saved, being present on the earth for a time of God's wrath not required to say that the believer overcame.




Don't know. I know that Revelation 17 differentiates between "martyrs" and "saints" who die at the hands of the Harlot.
The saints and martyrs could be the same in that the Harlot was drunk with the blood of the saints as with the martyrs? Idk, and I hate getting into this word and that, but the word for saints is "holy ones" and the word for martyrs is "witnesses"...so maybe they are all of Christ and thus the Harlot is drunk on the blood of those who are in Christ, be they specifically "witnesses" or, (for lack of a better way of putting it), just saved. Maybe the martyrs and saints are both killed by the Harlot, but the martyrs were witnesses in some special way?

Idk, just pondering it.



Don't know. Now you're speculating, not necessarily breaking down Bible passages or concepts. There are rewards for overcoming internal and external pressure (Rev. 2-3) - he brings them with Him at His return (Rev. 22) - and we will be blessed if we make it to that point in history (Rev. 14).
I am just trying to define overcoming. Overcoming is overcoming, being martyred is being martyred.


The rewards for overcoming are available to every generation of faith. But the book of Revelation is primarily speaking to the generation of the Lord's return when it is most difficult to overcome.
Thats true, but at the same time, if we consider the persecution existing at present in different areas of the world, isn't being faced with death because of the name of Jesus ....facing death for the name of Jesus. No matter if it is during the time of Revelation or today? I mean, being killed is being killed. Why would we think Stephen any less a martyr(or any less blessed for being a martyr) than those who will die during the time of Revelation.

There is internal and external pressure...and many types of pressure within each. I believe the wrath of God starts with the opening of the seals...and if that is the case, then the letters to the churches would precede the beginning of God's wrath. Thus the Church/churches will be shaken/refined/tested....however you want to put it.




Didn't say that it did :)

But if "overcoming" not "escaping" is true today; and that "overcoming" life is a witness to the lost in our day....why would the pattern of redemptive history so radically change in the last three and a half years...when the nations need an overcoming witness of love for Jesus most?
The pattern is not changing...God still offers the Gospel, and calls witnesses, as we have described in the 144 thousand of Israel, the two witnesses, the angels flying across the sky...and the many more that as they come to salvation and then proclaim Christ.

If the events in Revelation were anything else(other than the wrath of God), then it would be different(as far as the Church is concerned). But I believe that Revelation, starting with the opening of the seals anyway, is the wrath of God, there fore, as we have seen in history, God does not pour out His wrath on the righteous. However, He does not abandon those under judgment and still offers mercy to all that will respond to His call....and in the midst of it all, He does call.

But now I would be the first to say that those in the West, or other places with religious freedom...are going to face what they have not faced...at least not in any recent generations over the last...what...several hundred years, or however long it has been. Christians anyway will....I mean, it is happening now. Jesus is mocked regularly on TV, Christians are maligned regularly on TV and other media....... Mocking Christ is just fine but other religions it is not just fine...we are "living on borrowed time/freedom" so to speak.

That is just the persecution to come, there is also the issue of God's shaking things up with whatever disaster He will allow to come, or even punishment. But that is still not, imho, the beginning of the opening of the seals of His wrath upon those who have rejected Christ....that is another matter, but He still offers mercy until the last one decides with following the false or turning to the True.

jpoole21
May 25th 2012, 02:51 AM
What gets me about those who say "we must go through the tribulation" and that it somehow "purifies and prepares us".......really? What about all those in Chrust that have already died or die tomorrow or the next day? They didn't have to go through it and somehow they are okay without having been here for it.

the rookie
May 25th 2012, 02:54 AM
Agreed, but that does not mean we are being prepared to endure God's wrath, which is what I believe Revelation describes

As I've said (feel free to address my points anytime :)) - there's more to Revelation (and the end-time plan of God) than wrath upon the nations.


No, but also then being present on the earth then during the time of Revelation has nothing to do with believers, or the Church, overcoming, because as individuals we are to do that from the moment we are saved, being present on the earth for a time of God's wrath not required to say that the believer overcame.

It is required if folks (and Israel) are going to get saved :)



The saints and martyrs could be the same in that the Harlot was drunk with the blood of the saints as with the martyrs? Idk, and I hate getting into this word and that, but the word for saints is "holy ones" and the word for martyrs is "witnesses"...so maybe they are all of Christ and thus the Harlot is drunk on the blood of those who are in Christ, be they specifically "witnesses" or, (for lack of a better way of putting it), just saved. Maybe the martyrs and saints are both killed by the Harlot, but the martyrs were witnesses in some special way?

Either way, they're "there" :)


I am just trying to define overcoming. Overcoming is overcoming, being martyred is being martyred.

Overcoming includes being martyred; also includes about six other ways in which the church will endure great pressure. All seven ways come with great reward. Again, (so that we can put this particular argument to bed) all seven highlighted in Rev. 2-3 apply to all believers in every generation; it just has particular application for the generation of the Lord's return because each of the seven issues will be at their most intense.



Thats true, but at the same time, if we consider the persecution existing at present in different areas of the world, isn't being faced with death because of the name of Jesus ....facing death for the name of Jesus. No matter if it is during the time of Revelation or today? I mean, being killed is being killed. Why would we think Stephen any less a martyr(or any less blessed for being a martyr) than those who will die during the time of Revelation.

We don't. I'm confused as to why you are conducting an argument around points that I'm not making while overlooking the points that I am making. I'm discussing what Revelation actually says (as well as many other passages) while you are addressing concepts that are, please forgive me, not relevant or germaine to the discussion. The need to overcome temptation and pressure now has nothing - absolutely nothing - to do with exegeting the passages of the book of Revelation. Like I said, the passages are pretty straightforward.

In other words, overcoming pressure now prepares us to overcome it then. We do push ups and run sprints now so that we can win the Super Bowl. Your argument here (which you are repeating) is, basically, "Why do we have to win the Super Bowl then? Don't we have to win games right now?" Um, yes :) We have to win games now so that we can be effective during the biggest game of all time.


There is internal and external pressure...and many types of pressure within each. I believe the wrath of God starts with the opening of the seals...and if that is the case, then the letters to the churches would precede the beginning of God's wrath. Thus the Church/churches will be shaken/refined/tested....however you want to put it.

Again, you're arguing in a circular manner - "assuming what you are trying to prove". You have to prove that we are gone before wrath before arguing that shaking precedes shaking and then we are gone for the shaking :)

I also believe that the wrath starts with the seals. But as I've been saying, that belief is irrelevant regarding the church and the trouble.


The pattern is not changing...God still offers the Gospel, and calls witnesses, as we have described in the 144 thousand of Israel, the two witnesses, the angels flying across the sky...and the many more that as they come to salvation and then proclaim Christ.

Why bring the church to maturity, remove it, and then start again with immature new believers...when we can't really even determine how they got saved (Rom. 10 - how will they hear if no one tells them?)? There's no verse in the Bible that describes that plan. AND, there's no proof that the 144K are saved ;)

AND in Revelation 11 it doesn't seem like the two witnesses are leading too many to Jesus ;)

AND it's not clear why the two witnesses weren't raptured with the rest of the faithful...?

AND it's not clear why the Lord would spare the righteous but then leave the....newly saved righteous?

Again...there are no verses that describe any of these scenarios.


If the events in Revelation were anything else(other than the wrath of God), then it would be different(as far as the Church is concerned). But I believe that Revelation, starting with the opening of the seals anyway, is the wrath of God, there fore, as we have seen in history, God does not pour out His wrath on the righteous. However, He does not abandon those under judgment and still offers mercy to all that will respond to His call....and in the midst of it all, He does call.

Again, you're arguing in a circular manner. We've already established that God's wrath poured out on the earth does not demand the removal of the righteous.

the rookie
May 25th 2012, 03:39 AM
What gets me about those who say "we must go through the tribulation" and that it somehow "purifies and prepares us".......really? What about all those in Chrust that have already died or die tomorrow or the next day? They didn't have to go through it and somehow they are okay without having been here for it.

I'm not saying "we" "must" go through the tribulation. I'm saying that the "generation alive at the time of the Second Coming" "will" go through the tribulation. No one would argue that the American church (which endures very little hardship, trials, or tribulations) is more mature than the Chinese Church (which has endured much trouble but is the most fervent and faithful of all of church history). Love usually isn't true until it's tested and proven :)

There's lots of verses that talk about the process of trials and troubles and the gold that they produce within us. There are lots of verses that encourage perseverance and patience and longsuffering. Again - it's logical that some trouble produces some gold, lots of pressure produces lots of gold.

The issue isn't "fairness" (which seems to be your argument). The issue is the kind of faith and witness (or, "faithful witness") that brings many into the kingdom during the most difficult time to get saved in history. Much trouble produces much faith which produces a glorious witness which produces a glorious harvest.

I'm not saying "we must"; again, I'm simply saying that the "church will". It's not a matter of what "we need"; it's a matter of "what will happen".

claybevan
May 25th 2012, 10:45 AM
What gets me about those who say "we must go through the tribulation" and that it somehow "purifies and prepares us".......really? What about all those in Chrust that have already died or die tomorrow or the next day? They didn't have to go through it and somehow they are okay without having been here for it.

I don't think it has anything to do with purification and preparation. I have never thought that being a christian exempts us from rough times [ bit of an understatement, sorry ] I guess it will sort the men from the boys and maybe that's what the apostasy is about, Some might say, " a tad unfair " but we know the Lord doesn't do unfair so if we are the ones that the Old Saints spoke of it's just a matter of timing, somebody had to be here, why not us and what a privilege that some of us might see him Coming in Glory.

John 8:32
May 25th 2012, 11:03 AM
This premise presupposes that we have to be "off-planet" when the wrath of God strikes the nations of the earth. The book of Revelation - particularly in the trumpet judgments of Rev. 8-9 - seem to parallel beautifully the plagues of Egypt. I don't recall Israelites, or Moses, being troubled by their geographical proximity to the judgments of God upon Egypt. In fact, when the most intense plague (angel of death) comes, the blood of the lamb causes that judgment to "pass over" them. They didn't need to be removed from the earth during that judgment; they needed to be "covered". Zephaniah 2:3 tells us to believe for the same thing during a future, comprehensive, global outpouring of God's wrath upon the nations: "it may be that you will be hidden (covered) in the day of the Lord's anger."

We are not appointed for wrath, yes - but that doesn't demand or necessitate that we are appointed for "removal from the earth" during the outpouring of that wrath. That would be unprecedented in redemptive history. "The just shall live by faith," as Yaweh spoke to the prophet Habbakuk - who was sure that the righteous would perish with the wicked during the outpouring of God's wrath upon Israel; this speaks of God's ability (as the prophet witnesses in the vision of Hab. 3) to apply His judgments with surgical precision, striking the wicked and sparing the righteous (thus the celebration of the righteous on the earth in Malachi 4:2-3.



Of course. But again, that doesn't demand removal from the earth, just divine protection. Revelation 3 - the Philadelphian believers are spared from the shaking, but not by being removed from the earth...by divine protection. The believers in Smyrna perish - but not by the wrath of God; but from the wrath of wicked and unreasonable men. The number of martyrs throughout the book of Revelation speak to a church that stands victoriously against darkness and oppression (Rev. 12:11) while also providing a context for God to righteously avenge their deaths (Rev. 6:9-11) and reward their stand (Rev. 20:4). There's great reward awaiting those who love Jesus who are on the earth during the great trouble (Rev. 14:13).

We put on the armor of God to stand against the flesh...the devil...the world...but not to stand against the wrath of God.

You are exactly correct about not being removed from the earth but receiving divine protection...

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

A rapture to heaven would never be called flying into the wilderness. Also, notice the timing, 3-1/2 years. The same amount of time of the final two witnesses and the same amount of time as the tribulation and day of the Lord.

Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

The Devil orchestrates this through the False Prophet and the great false church, the whore...

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

quiet dove
May 25th 2012, 03:27 PM
As I've said (feel free to address my points anytime :)) - there's more to Revelation (and the end-time plan of God) than wrath upon the nations.

It is required if folks (and Israel) are going to get saved :)

Either way, they're "there" :)

Overcoming includes being martyred; also includes about six other ways in which the church will endure great pressure. All seven ways come with great reward. Again, (so that we can put this particular argument to bed) all seven highlighted in Rev. 2-3 apply to all believers in every generation; it just has particular application for the generation of the Lord's return because each of the seven issues will be at their most intense.

We don't. I'm confused as to why you are conducting an argument around points that I'm not making while overlooking the points that I am making. I'm discussing what Revelation actually says (as well as many other passages) while you are addressing concepts that are, please forgive me, not relevant or germaine to the discussion. The need to overcome temptation and pressure now has nothing - absolutely nothing - to do with exegeting the passages of the book of Revelation. Like I said, the passages are pretty straightforward.

In other words, overcoming pressure now prepares us to overcome it then. We do push ups and run sprints now so that we can win the Super Bowl. Your argument here (which you are repeating) is, basically, "Why do we have to win the Super Bowl then? Don't we have to win games right now?" Um, yes :) We have to win games now so that we can be effective during the biggest game of all time.

Again, you're arguing in a circular manner - "assuming what you are trying to prove". You have to prove that we are gone before wrath before arguing that shaking precedes shaking and then we are gone for the shaking :)

I also believe that the wrath starts with the seals. But as I've been saying, that belief is irrelevant regarding the church and the trouble.

Then I won't go in circular motion any more. I believe there is precedence in scripture for God removing the righteous from the premises before His wrath...how He does it is secondary(Lot/Noah).

There is also precedence for for His protect of those who respond to Him in the midst of His wrath against those who will not. His very wrath being a witness of Himself along with His protection of those who have turned to Him in the midst of that wrath(Israel/Egypt)

There is a great deal to Revelation....but the point is, will the Church, who has been saved already from the wrath of God, be present on the earth for the wrath of God.



AND in Revelation 11 it doesn't seem like the two witnesses are leading too many to Jesus

AND it's not clear why the two witnesses weren't raptured with the rest of the faithful...?

AND it's not clear why the Lord would spare the righteous but then leave the....newly saved righteous?

Again...there are no verses that describe any of these scenarios.

You are speculating now regarding information we are not given.....and why God does what He does



Why bring the church to maturity, remove it, and then start again with immature new believers...when we can't really even determine how they got saved (Rom. 10 - how will they hear if no one tells them?)? There's no verse in the Bible that describes that plan. AND, there's no proof that the 144K are saved
What does bring the Church to maturity mean?

As far as push ups go, and being prepared for duty....the church in the West that you say is more mature, has for some time now, faced nothing in comparison to those who daily, as we speak, loose their jobs or can't get them, risk their lives having their homes burn, having their churches destroyed, are put in prison.... to follow Christ. For the most part a blind eye is turned to them regarding these things. And while the West has sent monetary support....that generally only comes after we are well satisfied, our needs more than met.

claybevan
May 25th 2012, 04:58 PM
I don't think it has anything to do with purification and preparation. I have never thought that being a christian exempts us from rough times [ bit of an understatement, sorry ] I guess it will sort the men from the boys and maybe that's what the apostasy is about, Some might say, " a tad unfair " but we know the Lord doesn't do unfair so if we are the ones that the Old Saints spoke of it's just a matter of timing, somebody had to be here, why not us and what a privilege that some of us might see him Coming in Glory.

There's me spouting off that it's got nothing to do with being purified and prepared, then I read:

“Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time. The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.” (Daniel 11:35,36)

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Daniel had more understanding than I! ( you're not going to, are you?)

John 8:32
May 25th 2012, 05:10 PM
You are exactly correct about not being removed from the earth but receiving divine protection...

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

A rapture to heaven would never be called flying into the wilderness. Also, notice the timing, 3-1/2 years. The same amount of time of the final two witnesses and the same amount of time as the tribulation and day of the Lord.

Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

The Devil orchestrates this through the False Prophet and the great false church, the whore...

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Just to add to this, around 66 AD, the church fled to Pella and escaped the attack on Jerusalem by Titus and his army. This was a type of Rev 12 and this information is readily available. I won't take up three pages here with C&P. Anyhoo, type and anti-type.

the rookie
May 25th 2012, 08:15 PM
Then I won't go in circular motion any more. I believe there is precedence in scripture for God removing the righteous from the premises before His wrath...how He does it is secondary(Lot/Noah).

None of the examples are "removal" - these two in particular are either "protection" or "direction" - meaning, God provides for and protects Noah in the midst of His judgment upon the wicked; He prophetically directs and leads Lot and His family out of the city before it is destroyed. I think that both are helpful patterns as it relates to God's leadership of the righteous as it relates to His judgment and wrath. But to extrapolate a "pre-trib rapture" is to press those examples beyond what they are communicating.


There is also precedence for for His protect of those who respond to Him in the midst of His wrath against those who will not. His very wrath being a witness of Himself along with His protection of those who have turned to Him in the midst of that wrath(Israel/Egypt)

Absolutely - much precedence for protection that does not necessitate wholesale removal. In fact, we can be protected and be "faithful witnesses" at the same exact time. A pre-trouble removal from the earth removes a "faithful witness".


There is a great deal to Revelation....but the point is, will the Church, who has been saved already from the wrath of God, be present on the earth for the wrath of God.

Yes :)


You are speculating now regarding information we are not given.....and why God does what He does

No, I'm asking questions based on pre-trib premises on key passages:

1. What is the role of the two witnesses? Are they spirit-filled believers? If so, why are they still on the earth during God's wrath?

2. Who are the 144,000? Are they spirit-filled believers? If so, why are they still on the earth during God's wrath?

3. Who is evangelizing the earth, leading to the great harvest of Rev. 7 and Rev. 14? Are they spirit-filled believers? If so, why are they still on the earth during God's wrath?

4. If all of the above are spirit-filled believers, who (or what) is the restrainer?

5. If all of the above get to be on the earth during the greatest hour for evangelism in all of church history, why can't we join them?



What does bring the Church to maturity mean?

Mature in love for Jesus. First commandment (love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength) restored to first place in the body of Christ, fully expressed from the moment we wake up till the moment we go to bed. The second commandment flows out of us with real humility and meekness. The church expresses in maturity the beatitudes of Christ (Matt. 5).

Also:

John 17 (same love in us as the Father and the Son have); Eph. 4 (unity in the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God); Eph. 3 (filled with the "fullness of God"); Eph. 5 (spotless & blameless in thought, word, and deed - sanctified and washed by the water of the word); Rev. 19 (the Bride has "made herself ready" for her wedding day corporately, fully, radically, deeply, and unshakably); Isa. 42 (unified worship adoring Jesus in singing from coastlands, islands, mountains, etc.); Mal. 1:11 (incense arising from "every place" - pure offering of worship); Rev. 8:1-5 (unified prayer / intercession contending for justice; cf. Lk. 18:7-8)


As far as push ups go, and being prepared for duty....the church in the West that you say is more mature, has for some time now, faced nothing in comparison to those who daily, as we speak, loose their jobs or can't get them, risk their lives having their homes burn, having their churches destroyed, are put in prison.... to follow Christ. For the most part a blind eye is turned to them regarding these things. And while the West has sent monetary support....that generally only comes after we are well satisfied, our needs more than met.

Right. Are you agreeing with me here? The church in China has much to teach the church of the Western world; the verses I referenced describe a globally unified church fully mature together, not one segment lagging behind the other.

quiet dove
May 26th 2012, 11:03 PM
None of the examples are "removal" - these two in particular are either "protection" or "direction" - meaning, God provides for and protects Noah in the midst of His judgment upon the wicked; He prophetically directs and leads Lot and His family out of the city before it is destroyed. I think that both are helpful patterns as it relates to God's leadership of the righteous as it relates to His judgment and wrath. But to extrapolate a "pre-trib rapture" is to press those examples beyond what they are communicating.

Absolutely - much precedence for protection that does not necessitate wholesale removal. In fact, we can be protected and be "faithful witnesses" at the same exact time. A pre-trouble removal from the earth removes a "faithful witness".
You say I am seeing what is not there, I guess I would have to say you are not seeing what is there? But we are not getting anywhere...we are both going in circles



No, I'm asking questions based on pre-trib premises on key passages:

1. What is the role of the two witnesses? Are they spirit-filled believers? If so, why are they still on the earth during God's wrath?

2. Who are the 144,000? Are they spirit-filled believers? If so, why are they still on the earth during God's wrath?

3. Who is evangelizing the earth, leading to the great harvest of Rev. 7 and Rev. 14? Are they spirit-filled believers? If so, why are they still on the earth during God's wrath?

4. If all of the above are spirit-filled believers, who (or what) is the restrainer?

5. If all of the above get to be on the earth during the greatest hour for evangelism in all of church history, why can't we join them?

It is clear that the 144 come from the tribes of Israel...not from within the Church. Distinction is clearly made here in Revelation that this particular 144 thousand are 12 thousand from each of the tribes of Israel, not the ranks of the Church, where there is no tribes of Israel and no distinction between Jew and Gentile. The two witnesses...clothed in sackcloth-prophets of Israel to Israel.

Placing the two witnesses as coming from the Church and the Church then being present on the earth, then with their resurrection would be the time of the rapture. And they are obviously not removed at the Second Advent.

The instruction, authority, and actions of these two are in line with the prophets of Israel, not the evangelist of the Church. These two not only devour those who try to harm them, but those who just want to.. They are killed in the same manner as they desire to harm these two witnesses. This is not the policy given to the Church. These two are not from within the Church, but from within Israel, prophets with the Gospel, but from Israel.

The greatest hour for any man/woman...is obedience, regardless of when that hour takes place for that man/woman. And if facing death in the face is desired, that can be accomplished today and go ahead and get started on ones greatest hour, why wait? I don't think maturity is an issue when it comes to dying for ones faith...many relatively new believers have done so.

I think that only the power of God can restrain deception or deliver from it. That restrainment is not only removed, but God Himself then sends deception to those who "do not love the truth". (2 Thess 2:10). I believe the Restrainer is God the Spirit because just as God can send the Spirit, He also will remove Him. ...regardless of the rapture...the Spirit is not limited to existence to within the believers anymore than God the Father or God the Son are. So regardless of what this may or may not have to do with the rapture, I believe that only God can be the Restrainer, God the Spirit, the one who can be sent, and thus removed.



Mature in love for Jesus. First commandment (love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength) restored to first place in the body of Christ, fully expressed from the moment we wake up till the moment we go to bed. The second commandment flows out of us with real humility and meekness. The church expresses in maturity the beatitudes of Christ (Matt. 5).

Also:

John 17 (same love in us as the Father and the Son have); Eph. 4 (unity in the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God); Eph. 3 (filled with the "fullness of God"); Eph. 5 (spotless & blameless in thought, word, and deed - sanctified and washed by the water of the word); Rev. 19 (the Bride has "made herself ready" for her wedding day corporately, fully, radically, deeply, and unshakably); Isa. 42 (unified worship adoring Jesus in singing from coastlands, islands, mountains, etc.); Mal. 1:11 (incense arising from "every place" - pure offering of worship); Rev. 8:1-5 (unified prayer / intercession contending for justice; cf. Lk. 18:7-8)


As far as push ups go, and being prepared for duty....the church in the West that you say is more mature, has for some time now, faced nothing in comparison to those who daily, as we speak, loose their jobs or can't get them, risk their lives having their homes burn, having their churches destroyed, are put in prison.... to follow Christ. For the most part a blind eye is turned to them regarding these things. And while the West has sent monetary support....that generally only comes after we are well satisfied, our needs more than met.
Right. Are you agreeing with me here? The church in China has much to teach the church of the Western world; the verses I referenced describe a globally unified church fully mature together, not one segment lagging behind the other.

I don't see scripture teaching a time of special unification or that things get better because of that unification. Christ ask, "will I find faith on the earth"(Luke 18:8).

The believers of this last generation are no more unifed or enabled than any other generation.

I agree, the verses teach that we should be, giving instruction to the believer of what they should be...but I don't see where they foretell of a global unified Church. Isaiah, Malachi, most of the prophets have prophecy about the time on the earth when Christ will reign, but that is after the He returns, not the time frame of the events in Revelation, which are prior to His return, for the most part anyway.

the rookie
May 27th 2012, 01:54 PM
You say I am seeing what is not there, I guess I would have to say you are not seeing what is there? But we are not getting anywhere...we are both going in circles

Hmmm - that's the first time that I can recall someone saying that I'm using circular reasoning :)

Circular reasoning is "assuming what you are trying to prove" - I've simply been trying to examine what the passages we've brought up say and describe. These passages have been referenced in light of the principle you have been pressing which is God's wrath poured out on the unrighteous, and what that means for the righteous. My point all along is that the principle is right (God's wrath is not poured out on the righteous) but the application lacks scriptural precedence (no scriptural example of a pre-trouble "removal to heaven" for saints) and it lacks scriptural prophecy (no scriptural prediction or description of a future removal). Therefore, it is logical to conclude that God will protect the righteous from His wrath in the same manner that He always has in ages past.

Technically, that's not circular reasoning, rather it's arguing from the available data.


It is clear that the 144 come from the tribes of Israel...not from within the Church. Distinction is clearly made here in Revelation that this particular 144 thousand are 12 thousand from each of the tribes of Israel, not the ranks of the Church, where there is no tribes of Israel and no distinction between Jew and Gentile. The two witnesses...clothed in sackcloth-prophets of Israel to Israel.

Typically, dispensationalists argue that the 144K get saved after the rapture of the saints (some argue that this happens after the removal of the Holy Spirit as the "restrainer" as well - a theological impossibility) - after they are saved they are the primary evangelists on the earth. I'm saying that the premise is illogical.


Placing the two witnesses as coming from the Church and the Church then being present on the earth, then with their resurrection would be the time of the rapture. And they are obviously not removed at the Second Advent.

The instruction, authority, and actions of these two are in line with the prophets of Israel, not the evangelist of the Church. These two not only devour those who try to harm them, but those who just want to.. They are killed in the same manner as they desire to harm these two witnesses. This is not the policy given to the Church. These two are not from within the Church, but from within Israel, prophets with the Gospel, but from Israel.

There is a difference in the New Covenant between "Church Prophets" and "Jewish Prophets"? Anything the two witnesses do has to be consistent with the New Covenant - there can't be a "reversion" to "Old Testament Jewish Prophets" before the Second Coming. Maybe you could explain that concept better...?


The greatest hour for any man/woman...is obedience, regardless of when that hour takes place for that man/woman. And if facing death in the face is desired, that can be accomplished today and go ahead and get started on ones greatest hour, why wait? I don't think maturity is an issue when it comes to dying for ones faith...many relatively new believers have done so.

You're arguing against something I'm not saying.


I think that only the power of God can restrain deception or deliver from it. That restrainment is not only removed, but God Himself then sends deception to those who "do not love the truth". (2 Thess 2:10). I believe the Restrainer is God the Spirit because just as God can send the Spirit, He also will remove Him. ...regardless of the rapture...the Spirit is not limited to existence to within the believers anymore than God the Father or God the Son are. So regardless of what this may or may not have to do with the rapture, I believe that only God can be the Restrainer, God the Spirit, the one who can be sent, and thus removed.

How can "God be removed"?


I don't see scripture teaching a time of special unification or that things get better because of that unification. Christ ask, "will I find faith on the earth"(Luke 18:8).

The believers of this last generation are no more unifed or enabled than any other generation.

Then you read through the scriptures I referenced that say the exact opposite?


I agree, the verses teach that we should be, giving instruction to the believer of what they should be...but I don't see where they foretell of a global unified Church. Isaiah, Malachi, most of the prophets have prophecy about the time on the earth when Christ will reign, but that is after the He returns, not the time frame of the events in Revelation, which are prior to His return, for the most part anyway.

I would suggest reading through those passages again :)

quiet dove
May 27th 2012, 02:36 PM
Hmmm - that's the first time that I can recall someone saying that I'm using circular reasoning :)
I just meant that we are not agreeing and will probably continue to just go in a circle of not agreeing, it was not really a comment about your reasoning...lol

I will read the rest here shortly but have some chores to see too so may be later today or tonight...not ignoring though

quiet dove
May 27th 2012, 08:00 PM
Circular reasoning is "assuming what you are trying to prove" - I've simply been trying to examine what the passages we've brought up say and describe. These passages have been referenced in light of the principle you have been pressing which is God's wrath poured out on the unrighteous, and what that means for the righteous. My point all along is that the principle is right (God's wrath is not poured out on the righteous) but the application lacks scriptural precedence (no scriptural example of a pre-trouble "removal to heaven" for saints) and it lacks scriptural prophecy (no scriptural prediction or description of a future removal). Therefore, it is logical to conclude that God will protect the righteous from His wrath in the same manner that He always has in ages past.
Are you not also "trying to prove"? Why is it circular reasoning for me to try and prove but the same does not apply to your trying to prove? Just curious about that...:spin:

If we say that God can only move as He has is past ages, or in a manner that there has been precedence, then where do we say past ages, or precedence begins...God never sent a flood before Noah....He never brought a nation out of slavery prior to bringing Israel out of Egypt..... He never singled out a man to bring forth a nation to serve Him prior to His calling out Abraham. I mean, if the logic is God cannot move but in ways He previously has, when does previously begin...where my logic determines, or yours?

I understand that God never removed the righteous to heaven prior to His wrath, but the fact is, He has removed the righteous from where His wrath was being dealt out. And He has removed righteous from the earth(Gen 5:24/Heb 11:15; 2 Ki 2:11). It has not always been a matter of preserving the righteous in the midst of...which has been my point.


Technically, that's not circular reasoning, rather it's arguing from the available data.
We are both arguing from what we believe the available data teaches. Why I am the one with circular reasoning, trying to prove what I assume to be true? Regardless of who is correct, I assume no less or no more than you are assuming about yourself being correct. Are we not both doing the same thing in putting forth(prove) to show what we assume to be correct?

Just askin......:spin:


Typically, dispensationalists argue that the 144K get saved after the rapture of the saints (some argue that this happens after the removal of the Holy Spirit as the "restrainer" as well - a theological impossibility) - after they are saved they are the primary evangelists on the earth. I'm saying that the premise is illogical.
If it is theologically impossible for God to remove the Holy Spirit, how is it theologically possible for God to have sent Him as Jesus said(John 16:7)
God says regarding the 144K
Rev 7:2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,

Why are they to be sealed by an angel with the seal of God upon their foreheads. You say they are part of the Church, and the Church has not been raptured.... ok. When is the Church sealed on the forehead by an angel with the seal of God? And what part of the Church constitutes the twelve tribes of Israel?

You are telling me my perspective is illogical, but you did not explain the Jewish tribes of the Church.


There is a difference in the New Covenant between "Church Prophets" and "Jewish Prophets"? Anything the two witnesses do has to be consistent with the New Covenant - there can't be a "reversion" to "Old Testament Jewish Prophets" before the Second Coming. Maybe you could explain that concept better...?

I did not say they were working under any other Covenant but the New when it comes to salvation....and I didn't say there was a reversion as in Covenants( just for the record). But I am saying that God is now working through Israel, or through Jewish prophets, and under the New Covenant, they are working to bring men to Jesus Christ. God clearly states that the 144 come from the tribes of Israel, and I am saying the same for these two witnesses.


You're arguing against something I'm not saying.
I understood you to say, and maybe I understood incorrectly...but that the time of Revelation would be the greatest time for witnessing, why would we want to miss that greatest hour? If I misunderstood I apologize.
What then is our greatest hour and why, maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying.


How can "God be removed"?
How could the Holy Spirit be sent? Thats just it, God will not be removing Himself, and while the Spirit is certainly God, we do know that God the Father sent God the Spirit. So if He can be sent, He can be removed.

But you disagree with me? Who/what do you believe the restrainer to be?


Then you read through the scriptures I referenced that say the exact opposite?
John 17
-- Speaks to all believers being one(v11, 21), being in Christ(v21) through out history, what portion of the chapter says that the portion of the Body alive on the earth during the end days events will reach a greater maturity and unity. What in those verses notes this special generation of believers who reach this maturity/unity?
There is one Body of Christ, there is one Spirit that indwells and thus connects, joins, makes one, and unites that Body. We can't get any more connected as a Body. Each individual must mature in Christ, so what you are proposing is a time when all the members of the Body will mature at once, unlike any previous time in history? Is that what you are proposing?


Eph. 3 (filled with the "fullness of God");
Eph 3:19
--The prayer seems for the Gentile believers he is speaking to. Certianly all believers should strive to be filled with the fulness of God..no argument on that, but where is a final, or end days portion of the Body singled out to reach a maturity/unity not previously attained to by the Body? Verse 21 specifically prays for the glory of God to be manifest within the Body "througout all generations".


Eph. 4 (unity in the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God);
Ehp 4:3, 13
-- Again, instruction to all believers, one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism.(v4,5). He has equipped the saints, all of them, from the beginning...is He equipping a special generation more than previous generations? The only thing you have to lean on is the word "until" in verse13and that says "we" all, isn't Paul speaking to this first generation of believers as part of the "we". If you are going to lean on this "until" then the entire Body becoming in unity is not limited to the portion of the Body still upon the earth during the end events. The only way the Body will, as a whole, attain to this unity is after we are clothed with our heavenly dwelling(2Co 5:4) the Bride having been taken to be with her Groom. It will only be then that we no longer see dimly(1Co 13:12).

Paul teaches us the only way that that the Body grows is when it is working properly(v16), but he does not single out an end days generation that will work more properly than their predecessors.


Eph. 5 (spotless & blameless in thought, word, and deed - sanctified and washed by the water of the word);
And this applies to a specific generation, or portion of the Body how? Isn't Christ sanctifying the entire Body, His entire Bride, cleansing the entire Bride, presenting the entire Bride? Where is a final generation of believers specified here? As I said, I do not see that these verses specify or fortell of a global unified Church of the end days events. After all have been clothed in their heavenly dwellings(resurrected/changed) yes, I would agree, but not until then. Not a singled out generation that achieves this while still upon the earth.


Rev. 8:1-5 (unified prayer / intercession contending for justice; cf. Lk. 18:7-8) "
It says the prayers of the saints went up before God, nothing about unified prayer of a global Church. I'm sure God hears all the prayer of all the saints upon the earth, who are all part of the one Body of Christ, no doubt...but it still says nothing about a special generation of a unified globally upon the earth part of that one Body.
We cannot limit those that God avenges to those upon the earth and thus apply it to a unified global earthly Church.(Rev 6:9)


Rev. 19 (the Bride has "made herself ready" for her wedding day corporately, fully, radically, deeply, and unshakably);
How does Revelation 19 speak of anything but the fully perfected entire Bride, clothed in her heavenly dwelling/bodies. I just don't see how it possibly speaks of global, as in earthly, unified Church. It does speak of the Church, the Bride, the Body of Christ, but the completed, not only a portion that is "global" as in on the earth. Maybe I am totally misunderstanding you...if I am, I'm apologize. I am responding based on this comment of mine regarding the passages including the ones from the OT, and your comment to my comments




"I agree, the verses teach that we should be, giving instruction to the believer of what they should be...but I don't see where they foretell of a global unified Church. Isaiah, Malachi, most of the prophets have prophecy about the time on the earth when Christ will reign, but that is after the He returns, not the time frame of the events in Revelation, which are prior to His return, for the most part anyway.


I would suggest reading through those passages again "

zoe4me
May 27th 2012, 08:29 PM
Where did you come up with this stupid SECRET RAPTURE idea. There is nothing secret about the last trumpet when we will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. It may be secret to you because you may not be in the removing of the Church. You could be a tare amoung the wheat and don't know it. You have to have the Spirit of God dwelling in you to understand. To the heathen it is secret. To the world all this is secret, so you may need to search your heart and see if you belong among the Chosen. My brother did a great job of explaining, what is known amoung the church as the rapture, the removal of the Church. Sure the word rapture is not found in scripture but the event is. The nature man can not understand spiritual things and religious people do not understand the truth. Christianity is not a religion.

the rookie
May 27th 2012, 09:01 PM
Are you not also "trying to prove"? Why is it circular reasoning for me to try and prove but the same does not apply to your trying to prove? Just curious about that...:spin:

Simple. I've proven that the righteous can be protected within the geographic vicinity of the outpouring of God's wrath. I've proven that a wholesale removal from the earth is not necessary to honor the covenantal seal of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:14) and God's appointment of mercy upon our lives (1 Thess. 5:9). Secondly, I've pointed out from scripture that the Exodus pattern and the Trumpet pattern of judgment parallel - which speaks more towards the deep involvement of the church with those events, not a "dimensional distance" because of a pre-trouble removal from the earth.

Secondly, I've shown that scripture lacks a historic pattern for an "other-dimension removal prior to wrath". There is a pattern for "protection" and "direction" but not "removal to heaven". Finally, lacking the historical pattern (seeing past localized judgments as a prototype or foreshadowing of future global and ultimate judgment) I've asked for some prophetic oracle that speaks to a change to the divine pattern. 100% of the time in scripture, God warns His people in advance that great trouble and shaking is coming so that they can be prepared for it; Paul re-emphasizes the importance of (and continuity of) that pattern in the New Covenant in 1 Thess. 5:1-8 and 2 Thess. 2:1-3.

God establishes the divine pattern in the past, emphasizes it through the prophets related to the future, and then commands us to watch and pray according to the established pattern of His leadership in redemptive history (Lk. 21:36).


If we say that God can only move as He has is past ages, or in a manner that there has been precedence, then where do we say past ages, or precedence begins...God never sent a flood before Noah....He never brought a nation out of slavery prior to bringing Israel out of Egypt..... He never singled out a man to bring forth a nation to serve Him prior to His calling out Abraham. I mean, if the logic is God cannot move but in ways He previously has, when does previously begin...where my logic determines, or yours?

Yes, but before each of those unprecedented moves of His hand, He spoke to His servants in advance. 100% of the time, they had forewarning and foreknowledge of exactly what was coming. I am not saying that God can't remove the church in advance of wrath and judgment upon the nations; it's just that the overwhelming corpus of scripture tells us that He won't - because of the amount of detail we have related to His plans for mercy in the midst of judgement, our part in that merciful plan, and our joy in His (and our) finest hour partnering together to see His plans come to their fullness.


I understand that God never removed the righteous to heaven prior to His wrath, but the fact is, He has removed the righteous from where His wrath was being dealt out. And He has removed righteous from the earth(Gen 5:24/Heb 11:15; 2 Ki 2:11). It has not always been a matter of preserving the righteous in the midst of...which has been my point.

Genesis 5:24 is a difficult verse to build doctrine from because (a) there is no context for wrath or protection; (b) it's not clear what "laqach" means in that passage.

Hebrews 11:15 requires some exegesis (explanation) on your part because it doesn't seem to say what you are saying it says :)

2 Ki. 2:11, therefore, is the only scriptural example of Yaweh taking a righteous man directly into the heavens. Again, I wouldn't pin the entire future of the church in the end-times on this verse. It proves that God "can"; but doesn't establish that He "will". We would need more scriptural proof than this to prove that He "will" remove the church prior to the great trouble.



If it is theologically impossible for God to remove the Holy Spirit, how is it theologically possible for God to have sent Him as Jesus said(John 16:7)

It's theologically impossible for the Lord to remove His Spirit from the earth and then have anyone get saved :)


Why are they to be sealed by an angel with the seal of God upon their foreheads. You say they are part of the Church, and the Church has not been raptured.... ok. When is the Church sealed on the forehead by an angel with the seal of God? And what part of the Church constitutes the twelve tribes of Israel?

I'm not saying that. Actually, I don't think they are believers at all. I'm saying that the pre-trib view says this. Is this not true? If they are not part of the church, how are they evangelizing (as some dispensationalists claim)? If they're not saved or evangelizing - then I'm all good with that interpretation. However, in the second part of Rev. 7, we see saved people "coming out of the great tribulation" into heaven and the sea of glass. How did they get saved? Who told them? Where is the Holy Spirit ("by grace, through faith, that none may boast")?


You are telling me my perspective is illogical, but you did not explain the Jewish tribes of the Church.

It's illogical to:

1. Insist that the church must be removed from the earth in order to be spared from the wrath to come;

2. Then to insist that the Holy Spirit is also removed with the church;

3. Then to correspondingly insist that people can get saved after this point with (a) no witness from the church and (b) no power or presence of the Holy Spirit.

The only logical option is to insist that people do not get saved after the rapture; I have a boatload of verses that say that they do :)

Once those verses are laid out; one has to hold to the illogical position that "Yes, people get saved after the rapture; but without the gospel witness from the church or the presence and power of the Holy Spirit". That violates the New Covenant. It violates what Paul laid out about the gospel and Jew and Gentile in Ephesians 2 and "one new man". So, I'm happy to repent for calling your viewpoint (or, somebody's viewpoint in the dispensational world as I understand it) "illogical" - but at some point you have to correct where I am seeing it wrong...with scriptures.


I did not say they were working under any other Covenant but the New when it comes to salvation....and I didn't say there was a reversion as in Covenants( just for the record). But I am saying that God is now working through Israel, or through Jewish prophets, and under the New Covenant, they are working to bring men to Jesus Christ. God clearly states that the 144 come from the tribes of Israel, and I am saying the same for these two witnesses.

1. How did they get saved apart from the witness of the church? (Rom. 10:14)

2. How does the "fullness of the Gentiles" (and what is the "fullness of the Gentiles") provoke Israel to jealousy (and salvation)? (Rom. 11:25)

3. How did they (including the "martyrs" of Rev. 6 & 20) get saved during that time without the Holy Spirit of God? (Eph. 1:13-14)

4. Why does the Lord command Gentiles to sing for Israel's salvation during Jacob's trouble? (Jer. 31:7)

5. Why does the Lord prophesy that the Gentiles will make His name "great amongst the nations" from "every place" - and when will this happen? (Mal. 1:11)

6. Who is protecting Israel in the wilderness during her darkest hour? (Rev. 12:16)

7.


I understood you to say, and maybe I understood incorrectly...but that the time of Revelation would be the greatest time for witnessing, why would we want to miss that greatest hour?

We wouldn't. I want to be here with all my heart :)


If I misunderstood I apologize.

No worries! This is fun :)


What then is our greatest hour and why, maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

I say "our finest hour" to mean that, while it may technically be "my grandchildren's finest hour" in terms of the time-frame, the whole church (on heaven and on the earth) labors together as the Bride with Jesus during those last hours of this age. The first century is, inarguably, one of the most unique time-frames in redemptive history. The Exodus was also an unusual time for the redeemed of God in relating to God - relating in a way that no other generation would ever relate to Him again. The Second Coming of Jesus will be the most unusual time in all of history for the church alive on the earth, no question about it.


But you disagree with me? Who/what do you believe the restrainer to be?

Has to be an "it" (neuter participle) and a "he". I've heard some claim that it could be Satan (cf. Rev. 12), actually. Doesn't have to be the Spirit - and, as I've said, it seems illogical that it would be the Spirit. Who or what restrains evil on the earth? Law restrains. The conscience restrains. God restrains. It's mysterious, for sure...


John 17
-- Speaks to all believers being one(v11, 21), being in Christ(v21) through out history, what portion of the chapter says that the portion of the Body alive on the earth during the end days events will reach a greater maturity and unity. What in those verses notes this special generation of believers who reach this maturity/unity?

Jesus is praying for something to happen. Has it happened yet?


There is one Body of Christ, there is one Spirit that indwells and thus connects, joins, makes one, and unites that Body. We can't get any more connected as a Body. Each individual must mature in Christ, so what you are proposing is a time when all the members of the Body will mature at once, unlike any previous time in history? Is that what you are proposing?

Yes.


Eph 3:19
--The prayer seems for the Gentile believers he is speaking to. Certianly all believers should strive to be filled with the fulness of God..no argument on that, but where is a final, or end days portion of the Body singled out to reach a maturity/unity not previously attained to by the Body? Verse 21 specifically prays for the glory of God to be manifest within the Body "througout all generations".

Verse 21 has moved on from Paul's prayer :)

Has the prayer that Paul prayed happened yet?


Ehp 4:3, 13
-- Again, instruction to all believers, one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism.(v4,5). He has equipped the saints, all of them, from the beginning...is He equipping a special generation more than previous generations? The only thing you have to lean on is the word "until" in verse13and that says "we" all, isn't Paul speaking to this first generation of believers as part of the "we". If you are going to lean on this "until" then the entire Body becoming in unity is not limited to the portion of the Body still upon the earth during the end events. The only way the Body will, as a whole, attain to this unity is after we are clothed with our heavenly dwelling(2Co 5:4) the Bride having been taken to be with her Groom. It will only be then that we no longer see dimly(1Co 13:12).

Why? The verses you are referencing are incidental to what I am saying. They don't negate the proposal that Paul is speaking of a time before the Second Coming. Remember, "the Bride has made herself ready" (Rev. 19) prior to His return; Malachi 4:6 speaks of comprehensive generational revival before the great and terrible day of the Lord or "there will be a curse in the land". Joel 2 speaks of an unprecedented Holy Spirit outpouring before the "great and terrible day of the Lord".


Paul teaches us the only way that that the Body grows is when it is working properly(v16), but he does not single out an end days generation that will work more properly than their predecessors.

Paul is giving post-revival Ephesus a vision (where God's plan is going) for the maturity of the Bride with practical instruction on how to get there. Has the church "gotten there"?


And this applies to a specific generation, or portion of the Body how? Isn't Christ sanctifying the entire Body, His entire Bride, cleansing the entire Bride, presenting the entire Bride? Where is a final generation of believers specified here? As I said, I do not see that these verses specify or fortell of a global unified Church of the end days events. After all have been clothed in their heavenly dwellings(resurrected/changed) yes, I would agree, but not until then. Not a singled out generation that achieves this while still upon the earth.

We have the prayer of Jesus and the stated vision / goal of God for the Bride - are you saying that this is impossible and will not happen prior to the Second Coming, or are you saying that it's already happened? Both seem like wrong answers to me :)

In other words, where did Paul get these ideas, and why does he point so emphatically to specific descriptives of the church's fullness (or maturity)?


It says the prayers of the saints went up before God, nothing about unified prayer of a global Church. I'm sure God hears all the prayer of all the saints upon the earth, who are all part of the one Body of Christ, no doubt...but it still says nothing about a special generation of a unified globally upon the earth part of that one Body.

That passage is a prophecy about the future, not a principle about prayer, my friend.


We cannot limit those that God avenges to those upon the earth and thus apply it to a unified global earthly Church.(Rev 6:9)

That passage is also a prophecy about the future and not a principle or teaching on justice.


How does Revelation 19 speak of anything but the fully perfected entire Bride, clothed in her heavenly dwelling/bodies. I just don't see how it possibly speaks of global, as in earthly, unified Church. It does speak of the Church, the Bride, the Body of Christ, but the completed, not only a portion that is "global" as in on the earth. Maybe I am totally misunderstanding you...if I am, I'm apologize. I am responding based on this comment of mine regarding the passages including the ones from the OT, and your comment to my comments

Rather than simply refuting me and saying, "it can't be", why not ask if it could be? In other words, is the fullness and maturity of the Bride - spotless, blameless, mature in love and holiness, unified in prayer, worship, and doctrine, filled with the Spirit and power, leading a global harvest at the end of the age as many "who instruct many...fall by the sword and flame" (Dan. 11:33-35) - is this something that God desires and is working towards in this age, before the Second Coming? Or are all these passages only about a "post-resurrection" life? If these aren't things the church can attain to prior to death / the Second Coming, why does scripture talk about them like we can...and will?

the rookie
May 27th 2012, 09:02 PM
Where did you come up with this stupid SECRET RAPTURE idea. There is nothing secret about the last trumpet when we will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. It may be secret to you because you may not be in the removing of the Church. You could be a tare amoung the wheat and don't know it. You have to have the Spirit of God dwelling in you to understand. To the heathen it is secret. To the world all this is secret, so you may need to search your heart and see if you belong among the Chosen. My brother did a great job of explaining, what is known amoung the church as the rapture, the removal of the Church. Sure the word rapture is not found in scripture but the event is. The nature man can not understand spiritual things and religious people do not understand the truth. Christianity is not a religion.

Please be respectful in here...or don't post at all. We can disagree, but we can be kind and loving in disagreement. Thanks for understanding.

zoe4me
May 27th 2012, 11:39 PM
Simple. I've proven that the righteous can be protected within the geographic vicinity of the outpouring of God's wrath. I've proven that a wholesale removal from the earth is not necessary to honor the covenantal seal of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:14) and God's appointment of mercy upon our lives (1 Thess. 5:9). Secondly, I've pointed out from scripture that the Exodus pattern and the Trumpet pattern of judgment parallel - which speaks more towards the deep involvement of the church with those events, not a "dimensional distance" because of a pre-trouble removal from the earth.

Secondly, I've shown that scripture lacks a historic pattern for an "other-dimension removal prior to wrath". There is a pattern for "protection" and "direction" but not "removal to heaven". Finally, lacking the historical pattern (seeing past localized judgments as a prototype or foreshadowing of future global and ultimate judgment) I've asked for some prophetic oracle that speaks to a change to the divine pattern. 100% of the time in scripture, God warns His people in advance that great trouble and shaking is coming so that they can be prepared for it; Paul re-emphasizes the importance of (and continuity of) that pattern in the New Covenant in 1 Thess. 5:1-8 and 2 Thess. 2:1-3.

God establishes the divine pattern in the past, emphasizes it through the prophets related to the future, and then commands us to watch and pray according to the established pattern of His leadership in redemptive history (Lk. 21:36).



Yes, but before each of those unprecedented moves of His hand, He spoke to His servants in advance. 100% of the time, they had forewarning and foreknowledge of exactly what was coming. I am not saying that God can't remove the church in advance of wrath and judgment upon the nations; it's just that the overwhelming corpus of scripture tells us that He won't - because of the amount of detail we have related to His plans for mercy in the midst of judgement, our part in that merciful plan, and our joy in His (and our) finest hour partnering together to see His plans come to their fullness.



Genesis 5:24 is a difficult verse to build doctrine from because (a) there is no context for wrath or protection; (b) it's not clear what "laqach" means in that passage.

Hebrews 11:15 requires some exegesis (explanation) on your part because it doesn't seem to say what you are saying it says :)

2 Ki. 2:11, therefore, is the only scriptural example of Yaweh taking a righteous man directly into the heavens. Again, I wouldn't pin the entire future of the church in the end-times on this verse. It proves that God "can"; but doesn't establish that He "will". We would need more scriptural proof than this to prove that He "will" remove the church prior to the great trouble.




It's theologically impossible for the Lord to remove His Spirit from the earth and then have anyone get saved :)



I'm not saying that. Actually, I don't think they are believers at all. I'm saying that the pre-trib view says this. Is this not true? If they are not part of the church, how are they evangelizing (as some dispensationalists claim)? If they're not saved or evangelizing - then I'm all good with that interpretation. However, in the second part of Rev. 7, we see saved people "coming out of the great tribulation" into heaven and the sea of glass. How did they get saved? Who told them? Where is the Holy Spirit ("by grace, through faith, that none may boast")?



It's illogical to:

1. Insist that the church must be removed from the earth in order to be spared from the wrath to come;

2. Then to insist that the Holy Spirit is also removed with the church;

3. Then to correspondingly insist that people can get saved after this point with (a) no witness from the church and (b) no power or presence of the Holy Spirit.

The only logical option is to insist that people do not get saved after the rapture; I have a boatload of verses that say that they do :)

Once those verses are laid out; one has to hold to the illogical position that "Yes, people get saved after the rapture; but without the gospel witness from the church or the presence and power of the Holy Spirit". That violates the New Covenant. It violates what Paul laid out about the gospel and Jew and Gentile in Ephesians 2 and "one new man". So, I'm happy to repent for calling your viewpoint (or, somebody's viewpoint in the dispensational world as I understand it) "illogical" - but at some point you have to correct where I am seeing it wrong...with scriptures.



1. How did they get saved apart from the witness of the church? (Rom. 10:14)

2. How does the "fullness of the Gentiles" (and what is the "fullness of the Gentiles") provoke Israel to jealousy (and salvation)? (Rom. 11:25)

3. How did they (including the "martyrs" of Rev. 6 & 20) get saved during that time without the Holy Spirit of God? (Eph. 1:13-14)

4. Why does the Lord command Gentiles to sing for Israel's salvation during Jacob's trouble? (Jer. 31:7)

5. Why does the Lord prophesy that the Gentiles will make His name "great amongst the nations" from "every place" - and when will this happen? (Mal. 1:11)

6. Who is protecting Israel in the wilderness during her darkest hour? (Rev. 12:16)

7.



We wouldn't. I want to be here with all my heart :)



No worries! This is fun :)



I say "our finest hour" to mean that, while it may technically be "my grandchildren's finest hour" in terms of the time-frame, the whole church (on heaven and on the earth) labors together as the Bride with Jesus during those last hours of this age. The first century is, inarguably, one of the most unique time-frames in redemptive history. The Exodus was also an unusual time for the redeemed of God in relating to God - relating in a way that no other generation would ever relate to Him again. The Second Coming of Jesus will be the most unusual time in all of history for the church alive on the earth, no question about it.



Has to be an "it" (neuter participle) and a "he". I've heard some claim that it could be Satan (cf. Rev. 12), actually. Doesn't have to be the Spirit - and, as I've said, it seems illogical that it would be the Spirit. Who or what restrains evil on the earth? Law restrains. The conscience restrains. God restrains. It's mysterious, for sure...



Jesus is praying for something to happen. Has it happened yet?



Yes.



Verse 21 has moved on from Paul's prayer :)

Has the prayer that Paul prayed happened yet?



Why? The verses you are referencing are incidental to what I am saying. They don't negate the proposal that Paul is speaking of a time before the Second Coming. Remember, "the Bride has made herself ready" (Rev. 19) prior to His return; Malachi 4:6 speaks of comprehensive generational revival before the great and terrible day of the Lord or "there will be a curse in the land". Joel 2 speaks of an unprecedented Holy Spirit outpouring before the "great and terrible day of the Lord".



Paul is giving post-revival Ephesus a vision (where God's plan is going) for the maturity of the Bride with practical instruction on how to get there. Has the church "gotten there"?



We have the prayer of Jesus and the stated vision / goal of God for the Bride - are you saying that this is impossible and will not happen prior to the Second Coming, or are you saying that it's already happened? Both seem like wrong answers to me :)

In other words, where did Paul get these ideas, and why does he point so emphatically to specific descriptives of the church's fullness (or maturity)?



That passage is a prophecy about the future, not a principle about prayer, my friend.



That passage is also a prophecy about the future and not a principle or teaching on justice.



Rather than simply refuting me and saying, "it can't be", why not ask if it could be? In other words, is the fullness and maturity of the Bride - spotless, blameless, mature in love and holiness, unified in prayer, worship, and doctrine, filled with the Spirit and power, leading a global harvest at the end of the age as many "who instruct many...fall by the sword and flame" (Dan. 11:33-35) - is this something that God desires and is working towards in this age, before the Second Coming? Or are all these passages only about a "post-resurrection" life? If these aren't things the church can attain to prior to death / the Second Coming, why does scripture talk about them like we can...and will?

You need to work on your Greek. in verse 7 the restrainer is masculine not neuter, it is a participle. But you missed the gender.

zoe4me
May 27th 2012, 11:41 PM
Sorry I understand.

Matthehitmanhart
May 28th 2012, 07:17 AM
You need to work on your Greek. in verse 7 the restrainer is masculine not neuter, it is a participle. But you missed the gender.

He didn't miss the masculine. He said the restrainer had to be both an "it" (v. 6) and a "he" (v. 7).

jpoole21
May 28th 2012, 02:01 PM
I disagree with you Rookie. I'm not going to write a college thesis on it because that's been done pro and against a million times on this forum and others. I'm not a Bible scholar and I can't quote 3/4 of it from memory, but I've seen the so called best teachers and their messages pro and against rapture and I believe the pro rapture argument makes more sense and seems more in line with what the scriptures say. Yes, I am aware you can post 100 scriptures that you're sure back your understanding and that's fine, but I disagree.

I also say while I do believe in a pre-trib rapture, I also say that if we are here for it ( if we are the generation that sees it...and I think we are ) then it is what it is and I'll do what I can to make what God has planned for me happen. Or rather, He will have me do what He will have me do. I'm not going to fall on my face and doubt God because the rapture didn't happen. I wouldn't lose faith and accept the mark because the rapture didn't happen. I'd just try to serve whatever purpose I have to serve.

zoe4me
May 28th 2012, 03:15 PM
He didn't miss the masculine. He said the restrainer had to be both an "it" (v. 6) and a "he" (v. 7).

You need to look at the case of the participles. In verse 6 it is in the accusative case speaking of the act of restraining him and of coarse it would be in the neuter. But verse 7 the participle is the subject of the sentence and it reads "He who now restrains it" This one is in the nominative case and the it is speaking of, is " the mystery of lawlessness" The restrainer is a He! This is speaking of the Holy Spirit restraining the revealing of the antichrist. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A HE AND IS THE THIRD PERSON OF THE TRINITY! A PERSON NOT AN IT AND HE IS NOT NEUTER.
Restraining is neuter but the one that does the restraining is Masculine. The Holy Spirit is only in the Christians and when the church is taken out of the way, we have what is referred to in Christianity as the rapture. Nothing secret about the taking away! All of your verses you quote are not in the context of these verses. They are just random quotes from the bible. This is how most cults are started. They quote things out of context like you have done. Sorry if this offends you but when you read the gospels Jesus was always offending the religious people with the TRUTH. These quotes out of context is serious. God is all about truth and the Holy Spirit will lead us into all TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you were in court none of these verses you quotes would be revealant.

Matthehitmanhart
May 28th 2012, 04:38 PM
Restraining is neuter but the one that does the restraining is Masculine. The Holy Spirit is only in the Christians and when the church is taken out of the way, we have what is referred to in Christianity as the rapture. Nothing secret about the taking away! All of your verses you quote are not in the context of these verses. They are just random quotes from the bible. This is how most cults are started. They quote things out of context like you have done. Sorry if this offends you but when you read the gospels Jesus was always offending the religious people with the TRUTH. These quotes out of context is serious. God is all about truth and the Holy Spirit will lead us into all TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you were in court none of these verses you quotes would be revealant.

What verses did I quote? I've only commented on this thread once, in an effort to clarify what Rookie said, but I haven't engaged in the debate or quoted any texts, let alone texts out of context.

Speaking of texts out of context, though... You appear confident in thinking that the restrainer refers to the Holy Spirit, but at best this can be only a plausible speculation, since Paul himself does not tell us this. But you infer beyond that: you say that when the restrainer is taken out of the way, this refers not to the Holy Spirit, but to the church, the dwelling place of the Spirit. Thus, for you: restrainer = Holy Spirit, but restrainer taken away = church raptured. This goes beyond plausible speculation to plain old eisegesis.

But not only does this view read into the text a scheme which appears to be foreign to Paul; it ignores the rest of the chapter in order to do so. While the pre-trib reading of this passage relies entirely upon inference, Paul is explicit that Christ's coming and our gathering together to him will not take place until two things happen first: the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin. It is the second of these two events to which Paul connects the activity of the restrainer. When the restrainer is taken out the way, then the man of sin will be revealed.

Thus, if you were right, and the restrainer referred to the Holy Spirit, and the restrainer being taken away referred to the rapture of the church, then Paul would be guilty of a simple contradiction, since he has just said that the gathering of the church to Christ would not take place until after the revealing of the man of sin. But again, Paul tells us neither (a) that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, nor (b) that his removal is the rapture of the church, and everything he does tell us weighs heavily against such extravagant speculations.

claybevan
May 28th 2012, 11:48 PM
What verses did I quote? I've only commented on this thread once, in an effort to clarify what Rookie said, but I haven't engaged in the debate or quoted any texts, let alone texts out of context.

Speaking of texts out of context, though... You appear confident in thinking that the restrainer refers to the Holy Spirit, but at best this can be only a plausible speculation, since Paul himself does not tell us this. But you infer beyond that: you say that when the restrainer is taken out of the way, this refers not to the Holy Spirit, but to the church, the dwelling place of the Spirit. Thus, for you: restrainer = Holy Spirit, but restrainer taken away = church raptured. This goes beyond plausible speculation to plain old eisegesis.

But not only does this view read into the text a scheme which appears to be foreign to Paul; it ignores the rest of the chapter in order to do so. While the pre-trib reading of this passage relies entirely upon inference, Paul is explicit that Christ's coming and our gathering together to him will not take place until two things happen first: the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin. It is the second of these two events to which Paul connects the activity of the restrainer. When the restrainer is taken out the way, then the man of sin will be revealed.

Thus, if you were right, and the restrainer referred to the Holy Spirit, and the restrainer being taken away referred to the rapture of the church, then Paul would be guilty of a simple contradiction, since he has just said that the gathering of the church to Christ would not take place until after the revealing of the man of sin. But again, Paul tells us neither (a) that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, nor (b) that his removal is the rapture of the church, and everything he does tell us weighs heavily against such extravagant speculations.

We can only speculate on who the restrainer is but could it be the archangel Michael? He is the protector of Israel. He is a 'He'. Or am I way off beam.:hmm:

zoe4me
May 29th 2012, 12:32 AM
You are confusing the second coming with the removal of the one that restrains. The Christian belief of a rapture is not the second coming. At the second coming He comes to the earth, at the rapture He only comes in the air and calls us out and we will meet the Lord in the air. You are confusing the two events.

Matthehitmanhart
May 29th 2012, 12:40 AM
We can only speculate on who the restrainer is but could it be the archangel Michael? He is the protector of Israel. He is a 'He'. Or am I way off beam.:hmm:

Could be. It definitely sits easier with the text than the awkward Holy-Spirit-and-the-church theory. Although, given that Paul alludes to the church's knowledge of the restrainer's identity, it seems strange that they would know that it was Michael who was restraining the man of sin. Seems a little out of left field.

Matthehitmanhart
May 29th 2012, 12:51 AM
You are confusing the second coming with the removal of the one that restrains. The Christian belief of a rapture is not the second coming. At the second coming He comes to the earth, at the rapture He only comes in the air and calls us out and we will meet the Lord in the air. You are confusing the two events.

I think you might have misunderstood my post. I didn't imply that the removal of the restrainer is synonymous with the second coming. Rather, I said that the removal of the restrainer is connected in the text with the revealing of the man of sin, which Paul says must take place before the gathering of the saints to Christ. Or, to put it otherwise: the rapture cannot take place until after the removal of the restrainer and the revealing of the man of sin.

claybevan
May 29th 2012, 01:41 AM
Could be. It definitely sits easier with the text than the awkward Holy-Spirit-and-the-church theory. Although, given that Paul alludes to the church's knowledge of the restrainer's identity, it seems strange that they would know that it was Michael who was restraining the man of sin. Seems a little out of left field.

Off beam and out of left, that'll be me! Not as wacky though as those that believe that God ordained the governments and it is they that with the help of our prayers are restraining, I think we need to pray harder:pray:
Tis intriguing, the best non fiction drama, historical, thriller, who is it, ever.:pp
Besides Gen 3: 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
are there any other refs to angels holding back or barring the way to anything?
It's 2am over here in blighty, night, night.

quiet dove
May 29th 2012, 06:34 AM
Simple. I've proven that the righteous can be protected within the geographic vicinity of the outpouring of God's wrath. I've proven that a wholesale removal from the earth is not necessary to honor the covenantal seal of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:14) and God's appointment of mercy upon our lives (1 Thess. 5:9). Secondly, I've pointed out from scripture that the Exodus pattern and the Trumpet pattern of judgment parallel - which speaks more towards the deep involvement of the church with those events, not a "dimensional distance" because of a pre-trouble removal from the earth.
Having proven it because it is what you believe is the correct understanding. And I appreciate the honesty that you have in what you believe is correct. But you have not proven it to be correct to me.

As we already discussed, I agree that men can be protected in the midst of God's wrath, however, what I disagree with is the premise that this final seven years is in regards to the Church. OT prophecy regarding the nation of Israel, has not been brought to pass, God still has unfinished business with the nation(; 43:1-8; Isa 41:1)

Revelation 12:6,15, the woman, Israel(vv1,2), is protected...however her offspring, we are told, the dragon makes war with.

The pattern of Exodus is a pattern with Israel, and the pattern of the trumpets more a pattern of the protected during the "time of Jacob's trouble"(Jer 30:7), and the nation being brought to the Messiah they rejected, to then serve the LORD their God, and David their King.(v9), the Millennial Kingdom. And imho, further support that the 144K and the two, are of Israel.

What is interesting is the word in Jeremiah 30:7 for trouble, it is feminine, and can be defined as "vexter, rival wife". From what I can find in study it reads some thing like this " a season of distress, she to Jacob, and from her he will be delivered". I just find that interesting..... And this would be different if it was a season of distress for Abraham descendents and thus possibly supporting the argument that those saved were grafted into Abrahams descendents(provided one is amil...lol), but it doesn't, it says Jacob, and Jacob is Israel(Gen 32:) and of course Jacob inherited the promises given to Abraham(Gen 28:13-14)

Eph 1:14 does say we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, but it says nothing one way or the other regarding removal. And 1 thess 5:9,we are not appointed to wrath, but again, not regarding removal one way or the other....


Secondly, I've shown that scripture lacks a historic pattern for an "other-dimension removal prior to wrath". There is a pattern for "protection" and "direction" but not "removal to heaven". Finally, lacking the historical pattern (seeing past localized judgments as a prototype or foreshadowing of future global and ultimate judgment) I've asked for some prophetic oracle that speaks to a change to the divine pattern. 100% of the time in scripture, God warns His people in advance that great trouble and shaking is coming so that they can be prepared for it; Paul re-emphasizes the importance of (and continuity of) that pattern in the New Covenant in 1 Thess. 5:1-8 and 2 Thess. 2:1-3.

God establishes the divine pattern in the past, emphasizes it through the prophets related to the future, and then commands us to watch and pray according to the established pattern of His leadership in redemptive history (Lk. 21:36).
And I have shown there is precedence for removal, regardless of how or where to. And there is precedence for the removal of one who is righteous from the earth without that one seeing mortal death. Saying that there is no historical pattern for removal from the earth does not equate to not being possible in that many of the things God has done were the first time He has done them.

And I agree, Godis merciful and warns men and has told us what the future holds regarding the end of this age. Even a pre-trib Rapture does not leave a person without need of those warnings. Even worse than what will happen in Revelation, or the worst of what will happen, is not what will kill the mortal man, but the deception that will cause him to loose his soul. That is the greatest warning we need to heed. We can't do anything about much of what is coming, but deception we, or any man, can avoid.


Yes, but before each of those unprecedented moves of His hand, He spoke to His servants in advance. 100% of the time, they had forewarning and foreknowledge of exactly what was coming. I am not saying that God can't remove the church in advance of wrath and judgment upon the nations; it's just that the overwhelming corpus of scripture tells us that He won't - because of the amount of detail we have related to His plans for mercy in the midst of judgement, our part in that merciful plan, and our joy in His (and our) finest hour partnering together to see His plans come to their fullness.
And for me, He has spoken of a Rapture in advance...you disagee I know, but to me, He has spoken of this unprecedented move. And not to just be argumentative, but I believe that what scripture teaches about God, a Rapture of the righteous before this unprecedented time of trouble is just what He would do...awesom mercy, from and awesome God the Father toward the Bride of the Groom. Before the "day of the Lord", yes...that is what I believe scripture teaches about our God. Because it is not about those raptured, it is about the One they are raptured to, and away from the day of the Lord, "darkness, and not light....with no brightness in it"(Amos 5:20)

It will not be our partnering together, it will be only by His power...The Beast makes war against the saints and overcomes them(Rev 13:7; Dan 7:21). Jesus returns and eliminates the unrighteous and brings in justice and peace.(Rev 19:17-21 ; Dan 7:22)


Genesis 5:24 is a difficult verse to build doctrine from because (a) there is no context for wrath or protection; (b) it's not clear what "laqach" means in that passage.
My intent was not to build a doctrine, but only to show that God has indeed removed mortal men from the earth without their seeing mortal death. And the word laquch may be difficult to define, but it is used many times and many times translated in some form of "took", "take", "taken".


Hebrews 11:15 requires some exegesis (explanation) on your part because it doesn't seem to say what you are saying it says
Thats because it was supposed to be 11:5, sorry about that. I read 11:15 and even I wondered what I was talking about...LOL!!


2 Ki. 2:11, therefore, is the only scriptural example of Yaweh taking a righteous man directly into the heavens. Again, I wouldn't pin the entire future of the church in the end-times on this verse. It proves that God "can"; but doesn't establish that He "will". We would need more scriptural proof than this to prove that He "will" remove the church prior to the great trouble.
Heb 11:5 is quoting about Enoch in Gen 5:24. And the word in question is a verb with wide application, but still with a basic meaning of "to take". though in the KJV it is used such as take, receive, fetch, bring, get, carry, marry, buy...but all those have a sense of, "to take", or "to get"

If it is theologically impossible for God to remove the Holy Spirit, how is it theologically possible for God to have sent Him as Jesus said(John 16:7)


It's theologically impossible for the Lord to remove His Spirit from the earth and then have anyone get saved
I disagree, God the Spirit being omnipresent is certainly not limited to existence within believers or working through believes. The Spirit convicts and works on men prior to them being saved.(John 16:8) He only indwells those who are saved. There fore, removing those who are indwelled has no bearing on whether or not the Spirit would then continue to convict unsaved men of their sin.


Why are they to be sealed by an angel with the seal of God upon their foreheads. You say they are part of the Church, and the Church has not been raptured.... ok. When is the Church sealed on the forehead by an angel with the seal of God? And what part of the Church constitutes the twelve tribes of Israel?


I'm not saying that. Actually, I don't think they are believers at all. I'm saying that the pre-trib view says this. Is this not true? If they are not part of the church, how are they evangelizing (as some dispensationalists claim)? If they're not saved or evangelizing - then I'm all good with that interpretation. However, in the second part of Rev. 7, we see saved people "coming out of the great tribulation" into heaven and the sea of glass. How did they get saved? Who told them? Where is the Holy Spirit ("by grace, through faith, that none may boast")?


If you don't think they(144K)are believers at all then what are they?
It's illogical to:
1. Insist that the church must be removed from the earth in order to be spared from the wrath to come;
2. Then to insist that the Holy Spirit is also removed with the church;
3. Then to correspondingly insist that people can get saved after this point with (a) no witness from the church and (b) no power or presence of the Holy Spirit.
I have been using scripture throught out my arguments, you may disagree with me, but I am using scripture and my lack of "proving" I am correct to you does not equate to me not being correct.

1) The Bride will be removed before the wrath of her Groom(1 Thes 1:10; Rev 6:16)
2) The God the Spirit, being omnipresent, is not limited to existence to within the indwelt believers. The Spirit convicts men of sin prior to their being indwelt, removing indwelt believers does not prevent the Spirit's ability to convict the unsaved of their sin(Jon 16:8) And the Spirit was very active regarding God's dealings with men through out the OT, prior to the NT. He is not unable to work if the Bride is removed
3)The Spirit will be present as He is omnipresent God. And the message of the Gospel will be upon the earth even if angels have to proclaim it. (14:6) The two witnesses and the 144K all witnesses of God. You seem to insist that without the Church God has no means of presenting the Gospel, the angel of 14:6 proves that that is not the case.


The only logical option is to insist that people do not get saved after the rapture; I have a boatload of verses that say that they do

Once those verses are laid out; one has to hold to the illogical position that "Yes, people get saved after the rapture; but without the gospel witness from the church or the presence and power of the Holy Spirit". That violates the New Covenant. It violates what Paul laid out about the gospel and Jew and Gentile in Ephesians 2 and "one new man". So, I'm happy to repent for calling your viewpoint (or, somebody's viewpoint in the dispensational world as I understand it) "illogical" - but at some point you have to correct where I am seeing it wrong...with scriptures.
I have said all along, and along with any pre tribber I know of, which of course is certainly not all of them, but safe to say that main stream pre trib would agree with you, many get saved after the rapture. I don't know about the rest of the pre tribbers out there but I have never said any differently.
I have corrected it...and as far as calling it illogical, that is not the worst I have been called so no worries...lol
I have not violated the New Covenant..I have shown that the Church is not God's only means of presenting the Gospel and that removing the Church does not equate then to the Spirit being unable to convict the sinner.

Ok, now answer my question, what are the twelve tribes of the Church?


I say "our finest hour" to mean that, while it may technically be "my grandchildren's finest hour" in terms of the time-frame, the whole church (on heaven and on the earth) labors together as the Bride with Jesus during those last hours of this age. The first century is, inarguably, one of the most unique time-frames in redemptive history. The Exodus was also an unusual time for the redeemed of God in relating to God - relating in a way that no other generation would ever relate to Him again. The Second Coming of Jesus will be the most unusual time in all of history for the church alive on the earth, no question about it.
Christ Second Advent will certainly be a glorious moment for all who love Him, no doubt. However, hypothetically speaking, were there a Rapture, that would be pretty darn glorious and a most unusual moment for all in Christ Jesus also...would it not?

I don't know where in scripture it teaches that the dead in Christ and the living in Christ labor together during those last hoursof this age. What are you basing that on?



Has to be an "it" (neuter participle) and a "he". I've heard some claim that it could be Satan (cf. Rev. 12), actually. Doesn't have to be the Spirit - and, as I've said, it seems illogical that it would be the Spirit. Who or what restrains evil on the earth? Law restrains. The conscience restrains. God restrains. It's mysterious, for sure...
So basically you have not come to a definite on that?

quiet dove
May 29th 2012, 06:45 AM
John 17
-- Speaks to all believers being one(v11, 21), being in Christ(v21) through out history, what portion of the chapter says that the portion of the Body alive on the earth during the end days events will reach a greater maturity and unity. What in those verses notes this special generation of believers who reach this maturity/unity?


Jesus is praying for something to happen. Has it happened yet?
It has been happening all along with all obedient believers. Are you saying the disciples or no other belivers have been included in that prayer? We are all members of the same one Body, my fingers and toes cannot be any more united in one body than they already are, regardless if my hands want to go left and my feet want to go right. They are united in my one body. Jesus prayer is for all who are part of His Body, not just a special last generation. Yes, it is fulfilled on a continuing basis as members are added to the Body.




There is one Body of Christ, there is one Spirit that indwells and thus connects, joins, makes one, and unites that Body. We can't get any more connected as a Body. Each individual must mature in Christ, so what you are proposing is a time when all the members of the Body will mature at once, unlike any previous time in history? Is that what you are proposing?


Yes.
I don't see anything you have put forth as supporting that concept




Eph 3:19
--The prayer seems for the Gentile believers he is speaking to. Certianly all believers should strive to be filled with the fulness of God..no argument on that, but where is a final, or end days portion of the Body singled out to reach a maturity/unity not previously attained to by the Body? Verse 21 specifically prays for the glory of God to be manifest within the Body "througout all generations".


Verse 21 has moved on from Paul's prayer

Has the prayer that Paul prayed happened yet?
Yes, those promises are for all believers...of all generations. Unity does not reach and achieve these promises...the willing heart of any individual believers recieves, through Christ, these promises



Ehp 4:3, 13
-- Again, instruction to all believers, one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism.(v4,5). He has equipped the saints, all of them, from the beginning...is He equipping a special generation more than previous generations? The only thing you have to lean on is the word "until" in verse13and that says "we" all, isn't Paul speaking to this first generation of believers as part of the "we". If you are going to lean on this "until" then the entire Body becoming in unity is not limited to the portion of the Body still upon the earth during the end events. The only way the Body will, as a whole, attain to this unity is after we are clothed with our heavenly dwelling(2Co 5:4) the Bride having been taken to be with her Groom. It will only be then that we no longer see dimly(1Co 13:12).


Why? The verses you are referencing are incidental to what I am saying. They don't negate the proposal that Paul is speaking of a time before the Second Coming. Remember, "the Bride has made herself ready" (Rev. 19) prior to His return; Malachi 4:6 speaks of comprehensive generational revival before the great and terrible day of the Lord or "there will be a curse in the land". Joel 2 speaks of an unprecedented Holy Spirit outpouring before the "great and terrible day of the Lord".
This ready Bride is in heaven preparing, or prepared, to return with Christ, not a unified Bride still upon the earth.

In past revivals, an outpouring of the Spirit was a building of members into the Church, not a special moment of a more unified Church. A pouring out of the Spirit toward the salvation of more men, not a specail pouring out that is for the purpose of an end days Church having something special that no previous generation possessed



Paul teaches us the only way that that the Body grows is when it is working properly(v16), but he does not single out an end days generation that will work more properly than their predecessors.



Paul is giving post-revival Ephesus a vision (where God's plan is going) for the maturity of the Bride with practical instruction on how to get there. Has the church "gotten there"?
Has the Church been growing since Pentecost?
And yes, the Church is full of mature, grounded and built up in love. Just as there has always been the true believers, mature believers built up in love.



And this applies to a specific generation, or portion of the Body how? Isn't Christ sanctifying the entire Body, His entire Bride, cleansing the entire Bride, presenting the entire Bride? Where is a final generation of believers specified here? As I said, I do not see that these verses specify or fortell of a global unified Church of the end days events. After all have been clothed in their heavenly dwellings(resurrected/changed) yes, I would agree, but not until then. Not a singled out generation that achieves this while still upon the earth.


We have the prayer of Jesus and the stated vision / goal of God for the Bride - are you saying that this is impossible and will not happen prior to the Second Coming, or are you saying that it's already happened? Both seem like wrong answers to me

In other words, where did Paul get these ideas, and why does he point so emphatically to specific descriptives of the church's fullness (or maturity)?
Christ sanctifies and is sanctifying every believer from the moment they become His.

Her perfection will not be completed and fully realized until she is clothed in heavenly bodies





That passage is a prophecy about the future, not a principle about prayer, my friend.
I didn't say it was a passage about the principle of prayer, I said it is the prayers of the saints and God hears all the prayers of the saints upon the earht, now and then. I agree, it is prophecy about those praying at that future time, it is a prophecy about saints who will be praying, but nothing about those saints being any more of less unified than any other saints have been

Believers are unified by the One Spirit into one Body. Any obedient member of that Body is going to be in aggrement with God's purpose. There is no more unified than what God has unifed by His indwelling Spirit. Be it one or a thousand obedient believers, God will accomplish His purpose...even if He has to accomplish Himself without any obedient believers. Obedience is commanded, but not required for God to accomplish what He has determined to accomplish. God will succeed with or without the obedience of men. Of course it is certainly to the benefit and blessing of men to be obedient.



That passage is also a prophecy about the future and not a principle or teaching on justice.
I was not saying it was a principle on the teaching of justice, my point is that those seen here are in heaven, are the martyred under the altar, not a global unified Church upon the earth.



Rather than simply refuting me and saying, "it can't be", why not ask if it could be? In other words, is the fullness and maturity of the Bride - spotless, blameless, mature in love and holiness, unified in prayer, worship, and doctrine, filled with the Spirit and power, leading a global harvest at the end of the age as many "who instruct many...fall by the sword and flame" (Dan. 11:33-35) - is this something that God desires and is working towards in this age, before the Second Coming? Or are all these passages only about a "post-resurrection" life? If these aren't things the church can attain to prior to death / the Second Coming, why does scripture talk about them like we can...and will?
I gave explanation of my understanding of the verses. However, typing "it can't be" would solve the problem of my long windedness...so it could have it's benefits...(haha-thats a joke)

The asking of ""could it be" is reasonable with any passage in considering interpretation...don't assume that I am not considering the arguments against my views.

Revelation 19, being of post-resurrection Bride, does not equate to God 'not' desiring..... The NT does not teach, imho, anywhere, that men, while still in these mortal corruptible bodies will reach their completed perfection. The fleshly bodies cannot be made so...(Matt 26:41; Rom 7:17-25; 1Pe 1:24)

The Beginner
May 29th 2012, 12:28 PM
Y
It is clear that the 144 come from the tribes of Israel...not from within the Church. Distinction is clearly made here in Revelation that this particular 144 thousand are 12 thousand from each of the tribes of Israel, not the ranks of the Church, where there is no tribes of Israel and no distinction between Jew and Gentile. The two witnesses...clothed in sackcloth-prophets of Israel to Israel.

Placing the two witnesses as coming from the Church and the Church then being present on the earth, then with their resurrection would be the time of the rapture. And they are obviously not removed at the Second Advent.

The instruction, authority, and actions of these two are in line with the prophets of Israel, not the evangelist of the Church. These two not only devour those who try to harm them, but those who just want to.. They are killed in the same manner as they desire to harm these two witnesses. This is not the policy given to the Church. These two are not from within the Church, but from within Israel, prophets with the Gospel, but from Israel.


Hey Quiet Dove,

Im am trying to understand your position on this piece a little better... I gather that you believe the 144K are prophets to Israel and since they are evangelizing I would assume you believe they are believers in Christ. What I haven't understood from you post is "when do they get saved"? In your opinion, when do the 144K become believers? Before or after the Rapture?

Thanks

David Taylor
May 29th 2012, 12:58 PM
For the most part I agree.

I would add that it is called the "time of Jacob's trouble" not the time of "the church's trouble".


Jacob's time of trouble, was the Babylonian captivity, circa 500 B.C.; it has nothing to do with the 21th century.

Jeremiah 1:3 "It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month."

Jeremiah 2:26 "As the thief is ashamed when he is found, so is the house of Israel ashamed; they, their kings, their princes, and their priests, and their prophets.
2:27 Saying to a stock, Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth: for they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah."

Jeremiah 8:10 Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them: for every one from the least even unto the greatest is given to covetousness, from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace. Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD. I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them. Why do we sit still? assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD. We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble! "

Jeremiah 11:10 "They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble. For according to the number of thy cities were thy gods, O Judah; and according to the number of the streets of Jerusalem have ye set up altars to that shameful thing, even altars to burn incense unto Baal. "

Jeremiah 13:17 "But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD's flock is carried away captive."

Jeremiah 14:7 "O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee.
14:8 O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night? "

Jeremiah 15:2 "And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity. "

Jeremiah 29:1 Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon;"

Jeremiah 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. "

Jeremiah 31:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.

Jeremiah 32:44 Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 51:1 "Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about. Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow, and against him that lifteth himself up in his brigandine: and spare ye not her young men; destroy ye utterly all her host. Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, and they that are thrust through in her streets. For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence. "

Jeremiah 52:27 And the king of Babylon smote them, and put them to death in Riblah in the land of Hamath. Thus Judah was carried away captive out of his own land. This is the people whom Nebuchadrezzar carried away captive: in the seventh year three thousand Jews and three and twenty:

quiet dove
May 29th 2012, 02:15 PM
Hey Quiet Dove,

Im am trying to understand your position on this piece a little better... I gather that you believe the 144K are prophets to Israel and since they are evangelizing I would assume you believe they are believers in Christ. What I haven't understood from you post is "when do they get saved"? In your opinion, when do the 144K become believers? Before or after the Rapture?

Thanks

It would have to be after, if they were saved prior to they would have been raptured and not be on the earth anyway.

quiet dove
May 29th 2012, 02:32 PM
When taken in full context, I believe this is speaking to Jacob, who is Israel...and has not been fulfilled, yet. All the prophets, in the midst of impending prophecies, also prophecy beyond and through out history.


Jer 30:7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.

Jer 30:8 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the LORD of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.

Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them.

Jer 30:10 'Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,' says the LORD, 'Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid.

Jer 30:11 For I am with you,' says the LORD, 'to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished.'

billy-brown 2
May 29th 2012, 07:33 PM
When taken in full context, I believe this is speaking to Jacob, who is Israel...and has not been fulfilled, yet. All the prophets, in the midst of impending prophecies, also prophecy beyond and through out history.


Jer 30:7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.

Jer 30:8 'For it shall come to pass in that day,' Says the LORD of hosts, 'That I will break his yoke from your neck, And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.

Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them.

Jer 30:10 'Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,' says the LORD, 'Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid.

Jer 30:11 For I am with you,' says the LORD, 'to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished.'

QD,

Does not the red text above refer to the captive exiles of Judah from of old?

DurbanDude
May 29th 2012, 08:47 PM
We can only speculate on who the restrainer is but could it be the archangel Michael? He is the protector of Israel. He is a 'He'. Or am I way off beam.:hmm:

I believe the restrainer is Satan, he does not readily lose his place and come to earth for his 3.5 years of wrath. Satan tries to stay in heaven but is forcibly thrown out to earth for his period of wrath. Rev 12 along with the gospels reveal that our testimony comes first , the gospel must first be preached to all nations, then the end will come. So we are trying to usher in the end, Satan is trying to delay the end. It is not the Holy Spirit that is delaying satan's wrath, Rev 12 reveals it is Satan himself who does not want to be cast down to earth.


12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Satan will be cast down, he doesn't want it, he is the delayer, the church is speeding the end, Satan fights to stay in heaven, knowing his short time on earth will precede his destruction. This is the more biblical approach rather than the church trying to delay the tribulation and satan trying to rush towards it as we are incorrectly taught.

SirToady
May 29th 2012, 10:48 PM
The restrainer is the Holy Ghost - whom after the Holy Ghost is removed, during the rapture - Satan and his ilk have free reign over the whole world.

People seem to forget the Jewish context in regards to the Tribulation. The church has NOTHING to do with the events of the Tribulation. You can't mix the Jewish and Christian programs.

quiet dove
May 29th 2012, 10:59 PM
QD,

Does not the red text above refer to the captive exiles of Judah from of old?

That one part does not change the fact that the rest has not ever come to pass. The land of their captivity could easily be any land they are in that is not their own. Like I said though...all the prophets went from present to future to last days future and often with not a lot of warning.

DurbanDude
May 30th 2012, 05:57 AM
The restrainer is the Holy Ghost - whom after the Holy Ghost is removed, during the rapture - Satan and his ilk have free reign over the whole world.

People seem to forget the Jewish context in regards to the Tribulation. The church has NOTHING to do with the events of the Tribulation. You can't mix the Jewish and Christian programs.


I wish you had a back-up verse to support your view :)

John 8:32
May 30th 2012, 10:57 AM
Jacob's time of trouble, was the Babylonian captivity, circa 500 B.C.; it has nothing to do with the 21th century.[/I]

Jer_30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

How many one off's are there?

Was this worse than 70 AD, The Bar Kokhba revolt 132-136 AD, WWII 1939-1945 AD? Is this the worst there has ever been or ever will be?

And when did this occur?

Jer 30:8For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
Jer 30:9But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
Jer 30:10Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 30:11For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

billy-brown 2
May 30th 2012, 11:03 AM
That one part does not change the fact that the rest has not ever come to pass. The land of their captivity could easily be any land they are in that is not their own. Like I said though...all the prophets went from present to future to last days future and often with not a lot of warning.

But QD,

Is not the context of the chapter is set from the verses below?

Jer. 30
1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2“Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book.
3‘For behold, days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.’ The LORD says, ‘I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it.’”
4Now these are the words which the LORD spoke concerning Israel and concerning Judah: . . .

I mean, Israel and Judah was in captivity when this was written, yes?

quiet dove
May 30th 2012, 01:05 PM
But QD,

Is not the context of the chapter is set from the verses below?

Jer. 30
1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2“Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book.
3‘For behold, days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.’ The LORD says, ‘I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it.’”
4Now these are the words which the LORD spoke concerning Israel and concerning Judah: . . .

I mean, Israel and Judah was in captivity when this was written, yes?

Their fortunes are not only to be restored, but more than restored. The Babylonian captivity ended in 70 years, however, that was not the end of the nation being under the thumb, and often very cruel thumb of Gentile nations, and it has been that way since the Babylonian captivity. They have not been restored to a state of living without concern serving their King. They have had brief moments of lesser domination by Gentile nations, but thats it. With the rejection of their promised Messiah, they remained without their restored kingdom and under the thumb of Gentile powers....the prophesies of restoration and blessing, under the rule of their King and serving Him has not happened. And Jacob is not the Church. Jacob is a singled out portion of Abraham's descendents brought forth to be a nation. The prophesies declare that that portion, will at some point, be in obedience to God, knowing their Messiah and serving Him, their promised King

The Beginner
May 30th 2012, 02:13 PM
Jacob's time of trouble, was the Babylonian captivity, circa 500 B.C.; it has nothing to do with the 21th century.


If the prophecy of Jeremiah 30-31 has nothing to do with future, then there are some problems with the text. There is information given within that prophecy that never saw fulfillment with the return of the captives from Babylon...

Lets look at the culmination of the prophecy

Jer 31:38-40 NKJV - [38] "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. [39] "The surveyor's line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. [40] "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever."

Jeremiah gives very specific geographical locations in the city of Jerusalem that will be rebuilt and will never be "plucked up or thrown down anymore forever". Yet we know from history that the city of Jerusalem was indeed "plucked up and thrown down" during the sieges of 70AD. Thus the "forever" part is either false or it is yet future in fulfillment...

IMO, this prophecy cannot simply be a symbolic representation of the church unless one can identify the proper symbolic meaning of the "horse gate, corner gate, tower of Hananel, the hill Gareb and the Goath" and their connection to the church...

Realist1981
May 30th 2012, 09:24 PM
Without hitting the Quote button and quoting virtually an entire page of text... This is in response to the Original Poster's original post when he wrote.....




"The Rapture of those in Christ occurs before, or at the time the Antichrist is revealed – perhaps even before the seven-year treaty is signed, and certainly prior to the time of the fullness of the Gentiles, when the desolations are determined, and the Day of the Lord is at hand.

Rapture: a catching away, a gathering together, the assembly.

Who are those in Christ?
1 Corinthians 15
1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:



"This is the foundation of Christian Faith (the Gospel) – either you truly believe (as with the faith of a child) unconditionally - or you do not
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________



So are you trying to say that "The foundation of the Christian Faith" is whether you believe in a pre tribulational rapture?

billy-brown 2
May 31st 2012, 08:46 PM
Their fortunes are not only to be restored, but more than restored. The Babylonian captivity ended in 70 years, however, that was not the end of the nation being under the thumb, and often very cruel thumb of Gentile nations, and it has been that way since the Babylonian captivity. They have not been restored to a state of living without concern serving their King. They have had brief moments of lesser domination by Gentile nations, but thats it. With the rejection of their promised Messiah, they remained without their restored kingdom and under the thumb of Gentile powers....the prophesies of restoration and blessing, under the rule of their King and serving Him has not happened. And Jacob is not the Church. Jacob is a singled out portion of Abraham's descendents brought forth to be a nation. The prophesies declare that that portion, will at some point, be in obedience to God, knowing their Messiah and serving Him, their promised King

QD,

But is there any instance where all of Israel acknowledged who the King is?

After all, the King is Jesus. :amen:

And some from Israel have rejected Him already, yes?

Acts 28:
23When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.
24Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.
25And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, “The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers,

26saying,
‘GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY,
“YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

27FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’

28“Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen.”

quiet dove
May 31st 2012, 10:16 PM
QD,

But is there any instance where all of Israel acknowledged who the King is?

After all, the King is Jesus. :amen:

And some from Israel have rejected Him already, yes?

Acts 28:
23When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.
24Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.
25And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, “The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers,

26saying,
‘GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY,
“YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

27FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’

28“Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen.”

Nope...but thats the whole point, there will be that time....the Millennial Kingdom when the sheep are separated from the goats and only the sheep enter in

Warrioroftheword
Jun 1st 2012, 10:07 AM
Some people believe in pre tribulation, post tribulation, and no rapture at all.

For a logically stand point I believe we will see part of the tribulation but not all. For the true children of the Lord we will be called up in the twinkling of an eye.

The reason I believe it will not be post or none at all is because Satan, or rather the anti Christ has to fool some people. Many will be swayed by him, but we must be removed from the picture when the anti Christ declares himself GOD inside the temple. The reason I say this is because the holy spirit will be removed from before him, if you are a child of the lord the holy spirit is inside of us. Thus you will be removed as well.

Another point to make is.... I mean seriously, HOW many of us know how the anti Christ will declare himself? and how many know how he is going to act for the most part? The second he goes in and declares himself GOD, EVERY christian in the world would point and say ANTI CHRIST ANTI CHRIST!. Thus he would lose a lot of credibility.

Another reason I believe this way is he, by he I mean the anti Christ needs to perform miracles. We all know Satan has no power to do things on such a grand scale as the father, so he lies and uses what the Lord has done.

I am sure he can perform small so called "miracles" but the biggest one he could ride on is the rapture. If he could flash a few miracles here and there and say he was the one that called them all up or hell he could say aliens did it (think of the alien movie where they say "dont look up") then he could persuaded people a lot easier.

Love Fountain
Jun 1st 2012, 02:33 PM
Some people believe in pre tribulation, post tribulation, and no rapture at all.

For a logically stand point I believe we will see part of the tribulation but not all. For the true children of the Lord we will be called up in the twinkling of an eye.

The reason I believe it will not be post or none at all is because Satan, or rather the anti Christ has to fool some people. Many will be swayed by him, but we must be removed from the picture when the anti Christ declares himself GOD inside the temple. The reason I say this is because the holy spirit will be removed from before him, if you are a child of the lord the holy spirit is inside of us. Thus you will be removed as well.

Another point to make is.... I mean seriously, HOW many of us know how the anti Christ will declare himself? and how many know how he is going to act for the most part? The second he goes in and declares himself GOD, EVERY christian in the world would point and say ANTI CHRIST ANTI CHRIST!. Thus he would lose a lot of credibility.

Another reason I believe this way is he, by he I mean the anti Christ needs to perform miracles. We all know Satan has no power to do things on such a grand scale as the father, so he lies and uses what the Lord has done.

I am sure he can perform small so called "miracles" but the biggest one he could ride on is the rapture. If he could flash a few miracles here and there and say he was the one that called them all up or hell he could say aliens did it (think of the alien movie where they say "dont look up") then he could persuaded people a lot easier.



There are two tribulations!

The first is the tribulation of satan, the copy cat pretending to be Christ! The falling away are those who are supposed to wait for the true Christ but fall away and follow the deceiver who transforms himself into a messenger/angel of light! They believe his supposed ministers of righteousness claiming to be righteous, who lead them right to satan because they are tossed to and fro by doctrines of men! There are none righteous except the true Christ himself!! It is written that the temple of God is the body of Christ! Yet how many are looking for a building of sticks and stones to be built again and don't even know they are the temple of God? It's very sad, but it is all written! Satan, pretending to be God will bring his wrath upon any that do not bow down to him and follow him! We have been warned over and over throughout the whole bible, from the serpent/shining one/satan in the garden of eden to the children in the book of Daniel being thrown in the fire, to the great book of Revelation of how it will all go down. Satan came for the bride in the garden and appeared as a messenger of light and he will do the same thing again! Stand against the devil and do everything you can to stand!!

The second tribulation is when the true Christ returns after satan is allowed to have his time.

2 Thes 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



Paul says we are to be virgins when the true Christ returns!


2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ


The secret rapture is making people not read for themselves and not be prepared for what is coming upon the earth for they have been fed error after error! Told that because they are Christians they will get rewards and be raptured away while Jews and the other people of the earth suffer Gods wrath! Time to wake up people, the alarm clock has been sounding for a long time! No more hitting that snooze button! Stop drinking the kool aid and read for yourselves!

2 Cor 11:11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.

11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


Don't believe them! They are bad for your health! Don't be one that hides when the true Christ returns just like when Adam and Eve try to hide from God in the garden after they had been seduced by the devil/serpent/messenger of light!


Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Why would they hide? Because they had followed the lie, the deceiver who transformed himself into a messenger of light! They were no longer the virgins for the true Christ who were supposed to wait! Oh so sad!!


In the name of Jesus/Yeshua!
Love Fountain

billy-brown 2
Jun 2nd 2012, 09:59 PM
Nope...but thats the whole point, there will be that time....the Millennial Kingdom when the sheep are separated from the goats and only the sheep enter in

Well, if the "kingdom indicated in bold above" is in our future from now, then that wouldn't that mean that the people represented in the verses below (in bold)
would get another shot at salvation after Christ came the second time?

Acts 28:
23When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.
24Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.

(I can't imagine that this is possible . . .)

quiet dove
Jun 3rd 2012, 04:41 AM
Well, if the "kingdom indicated in bold above" is in our future from now, then that wouldn't that mean that the people represented in the verses below (in bold)
would get another shot at salvation after Christ came the second time?

Acts 28:
23When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.
24Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.

(I can't imagine that this is possible . . .)

Only if those others are going to come back to mortal life. There is time to be born and a time to die, the decision of faith must be made in between the two by all. Only those who are alive at the time and make a decision for Christ will enter the Millennial Kingdom. And even after Christ is present in visible glory upon the earth reigning, Revelation makes it clear all men born must make that same decision regarding faith.

billy-brown 2
Jun 4th 2012, 02:12 AM
Only if those others are going to come back to mortal life. There is time to be born and a time to die, the decision of faith must be made in between the two by all. Only those who are alive at the time and make a decision for Christ will enter the Millennial Kingdom. And even after Christ is present in visible glory upon the earth reigning, Revelation makes it clear all men born must make that same decision regarding faith.

QD,

However, the dead--all of them--will hear the voice of the Son of God at "an hour":

John 5 (from Jesus)
25“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

And since those "others" have rejected Christ already from Acts 28:24; they will be condemned:

Mark 16 (from Jesus)
16“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

And of course, Christ is the Judge; He is equipped indeed to exercise judgment:

John 5 (from Jesus)
26“For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

And of course, Paul concurs--even indicating that it will occur on a day:

Acts 17 (from Paul)
30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

However, Christ will exercise judgment through resurrection; all men who are in the tombs will hear the voice of the Son of God and will experience a resurrection to life or judgment--and on a day:

John 5 (from Jesus)
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

And so, resurrection into life means "bodily immortality" for the faithful; the resurrection of judgment will be followed by condemnation--even a toss in the lake of fire:

Rev. 20 (from John)
12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

And the lake of fire is the furnace of fire from what Jesus indicated here:

Matt. 13 (from Jesus)
47“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And notice when that will happen: at the end of the age--indeed, the age that we currently live in.

So, I suppose that the "others" who do not believe of Acts 28:24 are waiting for judgment and the lake of fire only. But also (and this is even more critical), the "Millennium Kingdom" (as you would say) cannot have not people born during it. Why?

Because there will not be any marriage:

Luke 20 (from Jesus)
34Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

And those who are unworthy of "that" age have already been tossed in the furnace of fire already; this leaves only the righteous to "shine in the Kingdom" and so on:

Matt. 13
40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Of course, this means that the opportunity for faith is right now during our current age:

Acts 10
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
36“The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)—
37you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.
38“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
39“We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. 40“God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, 41not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
42“And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
43“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Does this make sense?

SirToady
Jun 4th 2012, 11:59 PM
Without hitting the Quote button and quoting virtually an entire page of text... This is in response to the Original Poster's original post when he wrote.....




"The Rapture of those in Christ occurs before, or at the time the Antichrist is revealed – perhaps even before the seven-year treaty is signed, and certainly prior to the time of the fullness of the Gentiles, when the desolations are determined, and the Day of the Lord is at hand.

Rapture: a catching away, a gathering together, the assembly.

Who are those in Christ?
1 Corinthians 15
1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:



"This is the foundation of Christian Faith (the Gospel) – either you truly believe (as with the faith of a child) unconditionally - or you do not
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________



So are you trying to say that "The foundation of the Christian Faith" is whether you believe in a pre tribulational rapture?




Absolutely Not! Who would dare do such a thing? I apologize if that was the impression you got from my post.

SirToady
Jun 9th 2012, 04:22 PM
I wish you had a back-up verse to support your view :)

II Thessalonians 2

3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6. And now ye know what (the Holy Spirit) withholdeth that he (Antichrist) might be revealed in his time.
7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Holy Spirit) who now letteth (restrains) will let (restrain), until he (Holy Spirit) be taken out of the way.

aftertheflood
Jun 9th 2012, 06:12 PM
I for one, reject all of the tenants of Dispensationalism as being unsupported by both scripture and historical church teaching. It is clear that none of the Early Church Father, and certainly none of the Apostolic Fathers held to a pre-trib view. And following the adage that it cannot mean to you what it did not mean to them as a general rule the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is called into insurmountable question. The views of the early church, and through curch history were either post tribulation moderate futurist or Amillinnial. Mine is that of a moderate futurist. An excellent discourse, in short form can be found here;

http://www.gospelpedlar.com/articles/last%20things/Eschat_for_Laymen/eschat_ladd.html

And a down to earth layman's study on the book of Revelation by my Advisor from Fuller is found here;

http://gen2rev.com/revelation/sessions/

billy-brown 2
Jun 10th 2012, 01:19 PM
The restrainer is the Holy Ghost - whom after the Holy Ghost is removed, during the rapture - Satan and his ilk have free reign over the whole world.

People seem to forget the Jewish context in regards to the Tribulation. The church has NOTHING to do with the events of the Tribulation. You can't mix the Jewish and Christian programs.


II Thessalonians 2

3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6. And now ye know what (the Holy Spirit) withholdeth that he (Antichrist) might be revealed in his time.
7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Holy Spirit) who now letteth (restrains) will let (restrain), until he (Holy Spirit) be taken out of the way.

Hi Toady,

Are you aware that Paul told the Thessalonians the things of II Thess. 2:3-4 while he was with them?

(And of course, this letter was written after he was with them--ca. 52 or so.)

Also, the Thessalonians knew what "withholdeth"--the language of II Thess. 2:6 is evident: "And now ye know . . ."

Would it not be useful to determine what the Thessalonians knew?

SirToady
Jun 10th 2012, 02:05 PM
Hi Toady,

Are you aware that Paul told the Thessalonians the things of II Thess. 2:3-4 while he was with them?

(And of course, this letter was written after he was with them--ca. 52 or so.)

Also, the Thessalonians knew what "withholdeth"--the language of II Thess. 2:6 is evident: "And now ye know . . ."

Would it not be useful to determine what the Thessalonians knew?

The Thessalonians, because of their persecutions - thought that they were in the last days, as did many of the early Christians.

billy-brown 2
Jun 10th 2012, 04:07 PM
The Thessalonians, because of their persecutions - thought that they were in the last days, as did many of the early Christians.

Yep.

But what did the Thessalonians know?

Well, they knew "what withholdeth" indeed, yes?

And apparently, Paul told them:


II Thess. II
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Yes?

KennethSam
Aug 1st 2013, 02:01 PM
Pre-Tribulation Rapture:
The most popularly taught view among Christian faiths is known as the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, or “Pre-Trib” theory. Those who accept this perspective believe the Rapture will happen just before the tribulation period, at the beginning of the seventieth week of Daniel. The Rapture will usher in the final seven years of this age. True followers of Jesus Christ will be transformed into their spiritual bodies in the Rapture and taken from the Earth to be in Heaven with God. Non-believers will be left behind to face severe tribulation as the antichrist prepares to take his place as the Beast half way through the seven year period. According to this view, non-believers will still come to accept Christ, in spite of the Church’s absence during this time, however, these new Christians will endure extreme persecution, to the point of death by beheading.

Mid-Tribulation Rapture:
A less popular view is known as the Mid-Tribulation Rapture, or “Mid-Trib” theory. Those who accept this perspective believe that Christians will be taken from the Earth to be in Heaven with God at some point during the middle of the seven year period of tribulation.

Post-Tribulation Rapture:
Another popular view is known as the Post-Tribulation Rapture, or “Post-Trib” theory. Those who accept this perspective believe that Christians will remain on the Earth as witnesses during the seven year tribulation period, until the very end of this age. According to this view, believers will be either removed or protected from the terrible wrath of God predicted toward the end of the seven years in the book of Revelation

Grace Alone
Oct 24th 2013, 01:47 PM
To save the Bride from the Gods judgment.

Vakeros
Oct 24th 2013, 08:18 PM
The rapture has only one purpose - it is to gather ALL believers (living and dead) together to meet with Jesus at His return.
This is what Jesus teaches in the Olivet discourse found in Matt, Mark and Luke. Paul affirms it in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4. John also confirms it through Rev 19.

The timing is what is more open to discussion. I hold a view that Jesus returns at the end of 3.5 years of Great Tribulation. We already are living in the time of tribulation today.

ISRAEL
Oct 27th 2013, 01:13 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=A5t3oN6byBk#t=4

ross3421
Oct 27th 2013, 08:15 AM
Prelude to the Rapture


I Thessalonians 4 – First of the letters that the Apostle Paul writes.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:




Ponder the verse you quoted......

The dead in Christ shall rise first.......

When does this happen? When does the resurrection happen? Before Christ returns? NO. Thus everything stated in the next verse is after Christ returns it must be..... So then the "living" cannot be some alive on earth but alive after being resurrected.

Ponder....

Banislam
Oct 27th 2013, 04:12 PM
Yep.
But what did the Thessalonians know?
Well, they knew "what withholdeth" indeed, yes?
And apparently, Paul told them:


What is it that withholdeth?

It's an apostasy that the man of sin is looking for. That apostasy is here today taking place in the Arab/Islamic world. The void created by this rebellion will be filled by the man of sin who brings unity to the region. What do the rebels across the Arab world want? They want....

Hasan A. Yahya, the Dean of Arab Writers in North America said,
"This article calls for wider scope of protest and revolutions in the Arab countries, otherwise, these revolutions and protests are incomplete and misguided. In his opinion, the revolution may satisfy one country, it does not satisfy all Arabs who aspire for unity, one currency, one economy, and one flag that covers a land with no borders between."

Sound familiar?
Read more: http://www.articlesbase.com/philosophy-articles/a-new-definition-of-apostasy-and-heretics-sociological-analysis-1387803.html#ixzz1EcNgMQnk


The rapture has only one purpose - it is to gather ALL believers (living and dead) together to meet with Jesus at His return.
WHY does He gather ALL believers (living and dead) together to meet with Jesus at His return.

Why does he remove Christians that are living at the time the righteous dead are raised?
Some people say there will be no physical battles at Armageddon. I say there are.

He removes the living to prevent friendly fire.


The timing is what is more open to discussion. I hold a view that Jesus returns at the end of 3.5 years of Great Tribulation. We already are living in the time of tribulation today.

I agree with the rapture happening at the end of tribulation. From that time on there's probably only one to three months left before Day one of the Millennium. But I doubt we are living in tribulation today. The next 911 maybe brings it on as it will far out do the first one. Tomorrow isn't a particularly good day.

SirToady
Nov 8th 2013, 05:54 PM
Ponder the verse you quoted......

The dead in Christ shall rise first.......

When does this happen? When does the resurrection happen? Before Christ returns? NO. Thus everything stated in the next verse is after Christ returns it must be..... So then the "living" cannot be some alive on earth but alive after being resurrected.

Ponder....

This happens at the rapture when both the dead and living believers are called up into the clouds to be with the Lord. Christ DOES NOT RETURN UPON THE EARTH until 7 years AFTER the rapture. The word rapture does not appear, but is understood to mean a gathering, a calling, etc...

Grace Alone
Nov 8th 2013, 06:01 PM
This happens at the rapture when both the dead and living believers are called up into the clouds to be with the Lord. Christ DOES NOT RETURN UPON THE EARTH until 7 years AFTER the rapture. The word rapture does not appear, but is understood to mean a gathering, a calling, etc...

AMEN! ---------------------------------------------------

ross3421
Nov 9th 2013, 03:20 AM
This happens at the rapture when both the dead and living believers are called up into the clouds to be with the Lord. Christ DOES NOT RETURN UPON THE EARTH until 7 years AFTER the rapture. The word rapture does not appear, but is understood to mean a gathering, a calling, etc...

Does the last day happen 7 years prior?? For it is in the LAST DAY when dead believers are raised. Not to mention on the SAME last day dead unbelievers are raised also.....Thus no time for a rapture of the living..

SirToady
Nov 11th 2013, 01:58 AM
Does the last day happen 7 years prior?? For it is in the LAST DAY when dead believers are raised. Not to mention on the SAME last day dead unbelievers are raised also.....Thus no time for a rapture of the living..

I think you are confusing the Throne Judgement with the rapture - Yes, the rapture occurs just before the 7 year tribulation begins. There will be billions upon the Earth AFTER the rapture that go through tribulation.

ross3421
Nov 11th 2013, 07:12 AM
I think you are confusing the Throne Judgement with the rapture - Yes, the rapture occurs just before the 7 year tribulation begins. There will be billions upon the Earth AFTER the rapture that go through tribulation.


Look what happens prior to the supposed rapture.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ rise prior to a supposed rapture. So when do the dead rise? Not 7 years before Christ returns but when Christ returns at the second coming thereby eliminating a possible pretrib rapture...agree?

Paco!
Nov 11th 2013, 07:26 AM
Not 7 years before Christ returns but when Christ returns at the second coming thereby eliminating a possible pretrib rapture...agree?you assume this Passage refers to the 2nd Coming -- those who ascribe to a pre-trib rapture would assert it does not -- as it's ancillary doctrine, you are free to disagree with this "supposed" tenet

i haven't read every post in this thread but wanted to comment that Luke 21:24 (see initial post) refers to 70 AD & not an event yet future -- 1 must be careful with Matt 24, Mark 13, & Luke 21 as there's much in common but not everything

ross3421
Nov 11th 2013, 07:40 AM
you assume this Passage refers to the 2nd Coming -- those who ascribe to a pre-trib rapture would assert it does not -- as it's ancillary doctrine, you are free to disagree with this "supposed" tenet

i haven't read every post in this thread but wanted to comment that Luke 21:24 (see initial post) refers to 70 AD & not an event yet future -- 1 must be careful with Matt 24, Mark 13, & Luke 21 as there's much in common but not everything

I am focusing on when the dead in Christ rise to set the time table for the alive and remain being caught up ...... in your opinion when does the dead in Christ rise up?

SirToady
Nov 11th 2013, 06:54 PM
Look what happens prior to the supposed rapture.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ rise prior to a supposed rapture. So when do the dead rise? Not 7 years before Christ returns but when Christ returns at the second coming thereby eliminating a possible pretrib rapture...agree?

No not prior to, but at the rapture. I think we can agree that there is one death for all. However, the Apostle Paul tells us that in the rapture (calling away, assembly,etc...):

I Corinthians 15
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Now, in Matthew we learn of the 1st resurrection:
Matthew 27
50. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52. And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

We also know that Enoch and Elijah did not die but were apparently (changed) called up to be with God.

According to Revelation 20, during the tribulation many will come to accept, and die for Christ.

Revelation 20
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So, the dead who were NOT resurrected do so during the Great White Throne for judgement.


Isn't it interesting that Rev 20:5 calls this the first resurrection when clearly Matthew 27:50 - 53 states the same thing.

Now, my salvation nor yours depends upon our debates and discussions over the rapture. We do this because we want understanding, we have curiosity and want clarity. It is simply my opinion the rapture will occur, there is much to support it - however, if it does not happen what difference does that make?

Banislam
Nov 13th 2013, 02:36 AM
It is simply my opinion the rapture will occur, there is much to support it - however, if it does not happen what difference does that make?

In 1 Thes. 5 Paul is telling the Thessalonians that he doesn't need to tell them that the day of the Lord comes as a theif in the night because they already know. And we already know too because we have a record of what is to come in Mathew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13.

One problem pre-tribbers will have since they don't believe they'll be here to endure tribulation is that they won't physically prepare for it. We have a pretty good idea how long tribulation will be and what the conditions will be like just prior to the Day of the Lord, so just like the Thessalonians we don't need to be told again of the conditions on earth at that time. We should all prepare for troublesome times ahead especially if we have children and grandchildren.

Another problem is when tribulation begins and everyone is still here then the entire pre-trib end-times scenario comes into question. Will pre-tribbers be in denial that we are in fact in the midst of tribulation just because they're still here? When the man of sin arrives, who they believe will be a world dictator, and there is none, will they be in denial of that? Will they fabricate even more stuff to counter their pre-trib mistakes?

Another problem. I seriously doubt that a persons fervor for Christ would be what it should be if they have no idea of the time of Christ return. One reason for the tribulation is to draw people to Christ and to purify believers. If we are not yet in tribulation and believe we could be raptured at any moment, then I doubt that ones fervor to serve Christ would be the same as one who knows.... and is living in the signs of the times just preceding Christ return as mentioned in Mathew 24. In the context of pre-tribulationism Christ does come like a thief in the night since there are no signs!

SirToady
Nov 14th 2013, 12:30 AM
In 1 Thes. 5 Paul is telling the Thessalonians that he doesn't need to tell them that the day of the Lord comes as a theif in the night because they already know. And we already know too because we have a record of what is to come in Mathew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13.

One problem pre-tribbers will have since they don't believe they'll be here to endure tribulation is that they won't physically prepare for it. We have a pretty good idea how long tribulation will be and what the conditions will be like just prior to the Day of the Lord, so just like the Thessalonians we don't need to be told again of the conditions on earth at that time. We should all prepare for troublesome times ahead especially if we have children and grandchildren.

Another problem is when tribulation begins and everyone is still here then the entire pre-trib end-times scenario comes into question. Will pre-tribbers be in denial that we are in fact in the midst of tribulation just because they're still here? When the man of sin arrives, who they believe will be a world dictator, and there is none, will they be in denial of that? Will they fabricate even more stuff to counter their pre-trib mistakes?

Another problem. I seriously doubt that a persons fervor for Christ would be what it should be if they have no idea of the time of Christ return. One reason for the tribulation is to draw people to Christ and to purify believers. If we are not yet in tribulation and believe we could be raptured at any moment, then I doubt that ones fervor to serve Christ would be the same as one who knows.... and is living in the signs of the times just preceding Christ return as mentioned in Mathew 24. In the context of pre-tribulationism Christ does come like a thief in the night since there are no signs!

I don't think ANYBODY will doubt when the tribulation is upon us. Again, in my OP there is much in scripture to support the rapture and frankly I care not who likes or dislikes it.

Banislam
Nov 14th 2013, 12:43 AM
I don't think ANYBODY will doubt when the tribulation is upon us. Again, in my OP there is much in scripture to support the rapture and frankly I care not who likes or dislikes it.

If your a pre-tribber and you're still here after the tribulation truly arrives, then pre-tribbers have a choice. They can admit they made a mistake and accept the fact we are in tribulation. Or they can deny we are in tribulation and the truth and fabricate more stuff to cover up their colossal blunders and contradictions.

Be honest. Would you change your mind about the rapture if the world did go into tribulation and you were still here?
Most of the scriptures you posted either had nothing to do with the rapture or they were taken out of context.

You said,


Why would all these people lie?


but these things and much more will happen because God does not lie.

That's the kind of comment that I consider offensive both to those who disagree with you and to our Lord Jesus.

SirToady
Nov 14th 2013, 12:56 AM
If your a pre-tribber and you're still here after the tribulation truly arrives, then pre-tribbers have a choice. They can admit they made a mistake and accept the fact we are in tribulation. Or they can deny we are in tribulation and the truth and fabricate more stuff to cover up their colossal blunders and contradictions.

Be honest. Would you change your mind about the rapture if the world did go into tribulation and you were still here?
Most of the scriptures you posted either had nothing to do with the rapture or they were taken out of context.

You said,


That's the kind of comment that I consider offensive both to those who disagree with you and to our Lord Jesus.

If you miss out in the rapture will you change your mind? Again, I support my position with scripture, and I do not care if that offends anybody. Consider that it may be you that is offending Christ, not me.

Banislam
Nov 14th 2013, 01:12 AM
If you miss out in the rapture will you change your mind? Again, I support my position with scripture, and I do not care if that offends anybody. Consider that it may be you that is offending Christ, not me.

First of all, I didn't say anyone was a liar. You did! It's not your position about the rapture that's offensive. It's that you infer that since we disagree with you we are saying an author of the bible is lying or that God is lying. That's an abomination.

Second. If there is a pre-trib rapture I'm going anyway even if I don't believe it will occur when you say it does. And the only thing you can say to me is, "I told you so!"
If there is no pre-trib rapture then you must come out of denial and admit a colossal blunder, change your mind, and accept the truth!

Third. Here is the rapture. It happens at the seventh and last trump.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

I won't miss out on the rapture regardless of when it occurs.

SirToady
Nov 14th 2013, 01:19 AM
First of all, I didn't say anyone was a liar. You did! It's not your position about the rapture that's offensive. It's that you infer that since we disagree with you we are saying an author of the bible is lying or that God is lying. That's an abomination.

Second. If there is a pre-trib rapture I'm going anyway even if I don't believe it will occur when you say it does. And the only thing you can say to me is, "I told you so!"
If there is no pre-trib rapture then you must come out of denial and admit a colossal blunder, change your mind, and accept the truth!

Third. Here is the rapture. It happens at the seventh and last trump.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

I won't miss out on the rapture regardless of when it occurs.

Please show me the quote that I called ANYBODY a liar, we then can go from there.

Banislam
Nov 14th 2013, 01:33 AM
You said,


Why would all these people lie?

Nobody is saying that any bible author is lying. You infer that because people disagree with you, we disagree with scripture therefore these authors are lying. You shouldn't even say such a thing!

And you insinuated the same thing here...


but these things and much more will happen because God does not lie.

You are indirectly insinuating because we believe different than you do we infer that God or the bibles authors are lying.

That's my last reply....

SirToady
Nov 14th 2013, 01:43 AM
You said,



Nobody is saying that any bible author is lying. You infer that because people disagree with you, we disagree with scripture therefore these authors are lying. You shouldn't even say such a thing!

And you insinuated the same thing here...



You are indirectly insinuating because we believe different than you do we infer that God or the bibles authors are lying.

That's my last reply....

You stirred this mess - not me. It is you that took out of context what my OP was - anybody can check that out. It is you that is offended because my position is different than yours and is supported with scripture.