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AndrewBaptistFL
Apr 29th 2012, 08:14 PM
Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Deuteronomy 4:16-18
Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Is it inappropriate for a Christian to have images (pictures or statues) of Christ in their homes?What about statues or likenesses of created things like sculptures of frogs, fish or people or stuffed animals used as children’s toys?

lovex
Apr 29th 2012, 08:51 PM
Hm.. when you ask about a picture of Christ in the home.. would it only become a idol if you were to sit there and worship that picture? If you put that picture above Christ Himself? Or what if it was hanging in your house, and you paid no attention to it... would it still be wrong?

AndrewBaptistFL
Apr 29th 2012, 08:59 PM
Hm.. when you ask about a picture of Christ in the home.. would it only become a idol if you were to sit there and worship that picture? If you put that picture above Christ Himself? Or what if it was hanging in your house, and you paid no attention to it... would it still be wrong?

For the sake of the discussion, I’d ask that the purpose (or lack of purpose) of the item or object remain irrelevant.

-SEEKING-
Apr 29th 2012, 10:08 PM
Is it inappropriate for a Christian to have images (pictures or statues) of Christ in their homes? What about statues or likenesses of created things like sculptures of frogs, fish or people or stuffed animals used as children’s toys?

Depends on the reason they have it. But more often than not, I'd say no, it's probably not inappropriate.

I think idolatry is one of the least understood principles in scripture. Most of the time when I see people teach on idolatry, it's to manipulate others, and make them feel guilty about something.

claybevan
Apr 29th 2012, 10:25 PM
Hm.. when you ask about a picture of Christ in the home.. would it only become a idol if you were to sit there and worship that picture? If you put that picture above Christ Himself? Or what if it was hanging in your house, and you paid no attention to it... would it still be wrong?

I haven't any pictures of Christ in my home and neither would I want any but I can't see that it should be a problem if it helps you to focus during a quiet time etc. I wear a cross, would that be considered in the same way?

amazzin
Apr 29th 2012, 10:33 PM
In the OT idols or images refers to a statue or something of human manufacture which people have substituted and submitted themselves to instead of the true and living God. The best definition of an idol is some thing, person, or structure that a person submits themselves to as a god - a ruling, dominant force or value in their life. It may not be a statue or a tree as in ancient times but it can be a system, a preference, or a pursuit that opposes God's rule and will in your life.

In the Gospels, there is virtually nothing about idolatry, but in the letters of Paul and the other NT books Christians are frequently warned against idolatry. In the NT period the term idolatry began to be used as a spiritual concept. idolatry became not the actual bowing down before a statue but the replacement of God in the heart or mind of the worshiper. "Put to death...covetousness, which is idolatry", etc.

Today, as believers we must understand the vicious nature of idolatry and the potential bondage inherent in submission to the spirit of the world. Besides material objects such as houses, land, and cars, idols can be people, popular hero's, or those whom we love. Objects of worship can include things like fame, reputation, hobbies, pride, and deeds done in the name of the Lord.

amazzin
Apr 29th 2012, 10:35 PM
It could if you worship Jesus on the cross as some do. Some will also kiss their cross which is idolatry. Remember, Jesus is resurrected and sitting at God's right hand. But if it is as an identity symbol, then I wouldn't refer to it as a idol.


I haven't any pictures of Christ in my home and neither would I want any but I can't see that it should be a problem if it helps you to focus during a quiet time etc. I wear a cross, would that be considered in the same way?

claybevan
Apr 29th 2012, 11:05 PM
It could if you worship Jesus on the cross as some do. Some will also kiss their cross which is idolatry. Remember, Jesus is resurrected and sitting at God's right hand. But if it is as an identity symbol, then I wouldn't refer to it as a idol.

Who worships Jesus on the cross? and why do you think that kissing the cross is idolatry, unless you know what's in their hearts how can you say that it's bad?
I'm not totally disagreeing with you but just interested in the thinking behind your reply.

amazzin
Apr 29th 2012, 11:10 PM
I can name one religion who worships a "Christ" on the cross. It seems that His resurrection and accession is completely forgotten.

What purpose does kissing a cross bring? Its placing ones faith on an image or object that has no power to it.

Why is what I said such a sore spot?

AndrewBaptistFL
Apr 30th 2012, 01:15 AM
So the mentioned scripture in the OP is to be understood as not prohibitive of the manufacture or acquisition of objects in the form of any created things? Examples could include children’s toys or home decor.

Toner44
Apr 30th 2012, 02:24 AM
I think also when you start believing there is a certain power or protection granted that is being emitting from said object; cross, bible, picture. . . LOL favorite socks.

Watchman
Apr 30th 2012, 02:37 AM
So the mentioned scripture in the OP is to be understood as not prohibitive of the manufacture or acquisition of objects in the form of any created things? Examples could include children’s toys or home decor.
That prohibition was to the Jews and was included in Moses' law...which Christians are not under. We do fulfill it, but we are not subject to rules and regulations contained therein. Even the scriptures, or ministry, can be an idol...

W :)

claybevan
Apr 30th 2012, 07:55 AM
I can name one religion who worships a "Christ" on the cross. It seems that His resurrection and accession is completely forgotten.

What purpose does kissing a cross bring? Its placing ones faith on an image or object that has no power to it.

Why is what I said such a sore spot?

It's not a sore spot at all, I was only asking what your thinking was behind your answer, I didn't know that they're were only people who believe in the Crucified Christ, and I kiss a lot of things if I'm happy or grateful, kids and husband included, doesn't mean I idolise them. Now if as Toner 44 says above, the footballer kisses his cross because he thinks it's the cross that helped him score that point then it's definitely a no no but if he's kissing it because he's grateful to the Lord for his skills then what's the problem? My point is idolatry is only an issue if what's in your heart is askew. Too many of us are so quick to condem others when we don't even know what's in their hearts. The original questioner was even asking about statues of dogs and frogs in the house, so they've obviously heard some weird advice about that sort of stuff. I think if your hearts right with God then you can have as many pictures as you like, you know what and who your worshipping! Our houses would be pretty boring without visual stimuli. So my picture of Steve Mcqueen is definitely staying on the wardrobe door!
So I am not sore! I thought what this site was about was discussion. Have a happy day! I'm off to the dentist.. doubt wether I will be kissing much by the end of the day:eek:

Michelle71
Apr 30th 2012, 12:14 PM
Isa 42:17 They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.

Who or what is the trust put in? The art form, or God. A picture can remind a person of a bible story, or an attribute of God, and that can lead to worship of God.
The kids toys can be used for demonstration of the same thing. To show a moral, or lesson of a story. It is where the faith and worship is placed that makes
it an idol.

If the mindset is such that God cannot be found other than through pictures, or carved statues, or prayer beads, then there is idolatry. Anything or anyone
confidence is placed in above God is idolatry of the heart. That can be any mammon, which is more than only money.

G3126
μαμμωνᾶς
mammōnas
mam-mo-nas'
Of Chaldee origin (confidence, that is, figuratively wealth, personified); mammonas, that is, avarice (deified): - mammon.

-SEEKING-
Apr 30th 2012, 02:22 PM
Too many of us are so quick to condem others when we don't even know what's in their hearts.

And THAT'S probably the biggest problem right there. And not just about idols, but about a great many things.

Well said.

MoreMercy
Apr 30th 2012, 05:33 PM
Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Deuteronomy 4:16-18
Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Is it inappropriate for a Christian to have images (pictures or statues) of Christ in their homes?What about statues or likenesses of created things like sculptures of frogs, fish or people or stuffed animals used as children’s toys?

Not inappropriate for me as long as long as I do not allow myself or mine to honor and love those things more than I honor and love God according to His definition of: honoring and loving Him.

(idol... idolatry)
idols are called idols for a reason.




Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

Indueseason
Apr 30th 2012, 05:52 PM
MOD NOTE: moved to BC, where the debate can continue.

amazzin
Apr 30th 2012, 07:05 PM
My point is what does God's word say about this? I am not condeming anyone. God's word can do that without me.



It's not a sore spot at all, I was only asking what your thinking was behind your answer, I didn't know that they're were only people who believe in the Crucified Christ, and I kiss a lot of things if I'm happy or grateful, kids and husband included, doesn't mean I idolise them. Now if as Toner 44 says above, the footballer kisses his cross because he thinks it's the cross that helped him score that point then it's definitely a no no but if he's kissing it because he's grateful to the Lord for his skills then what's the problem? My point is idolatry is only an issue if what's in your heart is askew. Too many of us are so quick to condem others when we don't even know what's in their hearts. The original questioner was even asking about statues of dogs and frogs in the house, so they've obviously heard some weird advice about that sort of stuff. I think if your hearts right with God then you can have as many pictures as you like, you know what and who your worshipping! Our houses would be pretty boring without visual stimuli. So my picture of Steve Mcqueen is definitely staying on the wardrobe door!
So I am not sore! I thought what this site was about was discussion. Have a happy day! I'm off to the dentist.. doubt wether I will be kissing much by the end of the day:eek:

AndrewBaptistFL
Apr 30th 2012, 11:26 PM
The basis of the question was that there are a significant number of people calling foul to children having stuffed bears and people having sculptures of whatever in their homes. It seems a far-fetched doctrine perhaps formed by taking one paragraph very literally without examining the preceding and succeeding text.

MoreMercy
May 6th 2012, 03:59 AM
The basis of the question was that there are a significant number of people calling foul to children having stuffed bears and people having sculptures of whatever in their homes. It seems a far-fetched doctrine perhaps formed by taking one paragraph very literally without examining the preceding and succeeding text.

God bless you and yours, andrew_no_one.

If someone in the same house/under-the-same-roof is offended by a child's toy or any other thing in that same house, then the stuffed-bear/toy or the offended person should be taken out of that house.

But if the bear/toy is taken out of that house then it should be made very, very clear and brought to the child's remembrance often that the toy was taken out of the house to keep peace and to demonstrate love in the house toward the first person offended by the toy.

The child is now offended, but that child takes that stripe for another person by and because the child will now know and practice love toward that person who was first offended, just as Christ Jesus did take stripes for us and not for Himself.

Mat 18:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=18&v=6&t=KJV#comm/6)
Mat 18:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=18&v=6&t=KJV#comm/7)
Mat 18:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=18&v=6&t=KJV#comm/9)




Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

claybevan
May 6th 2012, 04:17 AM
If someone in the same house/under-the-same-roof is offended by a child's toy in that same house, then the stuffed-bear/toy or the offended person should be taken out of that house. But if the bear/toy is taken out of that house then it should be made very, very clear and brought to the child's remembrance often that the toy was taken out of the house to keep peace and to demonstrate love in the house toward the first person offended by the toy.

The child is now offended, but that child takes that stripe for another person by and because the child will now know and practice love toward that person who was first offended, just as Christ Jesus did take stripes for us and not for Himself.

Mat 18:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=18&v=6&t=KJV#comm/6)
Mat 18:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=18&v=6&t=KJV#comm/7)
Mat 18:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=18&v=6&t=KJV#comm/9)




Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

That seems ridiculous to me, if someone who is offended by a stuffed teddy bear, then it is they that should should be explained to, my house would be nearly empty if i removed everything that i thought may offend people. More helpful to try to get them to lighten up. We're not talking upside down crosses here, were talking ' cuddly furry brown things '

MoreMercy
May 6th 2012, 04:20 AM
That seems ridiculous to me, if someone who is offended by a stuffed teddy bear, then it is they that should should be explained to, my house would be nearly empty if i removed everything that i thought may offend people. More helpful to try to get them to lighten up. We're not talking upside down crosses here, were talking ' cuddly furry brown things '

Then there is a reason that it seems ridiculous to you.
Maybe you should take that burden to Christ Jesus, and not take it to me ?

He will be more merciful to you than I can.

claybevan
May 6th 2012, 04:21 AM
The basis of the question was that there are a significant number of people calling foul to children having stuffed bears and people having sculptures of whatever in their homes. It seems a far-fetched doctrine perhaps formed by taking one paragraph very literally without examining the preceding and succeeding text.

some folk just don't get the the meaning of idolatry, it's what's in the heart that's in question, not the item.

claybevan
May 6th 2012, 04:25 AM
Then there is a reason that it seems ridiculous to you.
Maybe you should take that burden to Christ Jesus and not to me ?

come on, I wasn't having a go at you, nor is it a burden to me, I just think that some folk get obsessed with that sort of stuff. We all know that idol worship is to do with heart not the item. Please don't be offended at what I say, I just replied with my opinion to your post, it wasn't personal!!

claybevan
May 6th 2012, 04:28 AM
Then there is a reason that it seems ridiculous to you.
Maybe you should take that burden to Christ Jesus, and not take it to me ?

He will be more merciful to you than I can.

I see it's only you and me on this post. So hello, sorry we got off on the wrong foot.:)

MoreMercy
May 6th 2012, 04:32 AM
come on, I wasn't having a go at you, nor is it a burden to me, I just think that some folk get obsessed with that sort of stuff. We all know that idol worship is to do with heart not the item. Please don't be offended at what I say, I just replied with my opinion to your post, it wasn't personal!!

And we are to love them folk just as much as we love the child who will be offended by folk.
I think you overlooked or turned one eye blind to a portion of what you quoted of me to draw those words from you that keeps your posture on this issue in error.

I have colored the text green and bold in the said quote that I see you overlooked to approach me with the reply to me that you did:

If someone in the same house/under-the-same-roof is offended by a child's toy or any other thing in that same house, then the stuffed-bear/toy or the offended person should be taken out of that house.

But if the bear/toy is taken out of that house then it should be made very, very clear and brought to the child's remembrance often that the toy was taken out of the house to keep peace and to demonstrate love in the house toward the first person offended by the toy.

The child is now offended, but that child takes that stripe for another person by and because the child will now know and practice love toward that person who was first offended, just as Christ Jesus did take stripes for us and not for Himself.

Mat 18:6
Mat 18:7
Mat 18:9




Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

claybevan
May 6th 2012, 04:43 AM
And we are to love them folk just as much as we love the child who will be offended by folk.
I think you overlooked or turned one eye blind to a portion of what you quoted of me to draw those words from you that keeps your posture on this issue in error.

I have colored the text green and bold in the said quote that I see you overlooked to approach me with the reply to me that you did:





Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

I think my friend that we just have different views on the question and that's cool.

MaryFreeman
May 6th 2012, 04:45 AM
I don't let just anyone into my home anymore.... Precisely because of things like this.... I know what I believe.... And I don't have any symbols of worship hanging in my house except a wooden cross my daughter painted for me a few years back.... I don't worship it.... I hang my necklaces on it :lol:....

Your home is your safe haven.... Your own place to go when you need to step out of the world for a while.... If someone walks into your home and is offended by a teddy bear.... Gently show them to the door and bid them a good day.... Your children should be safe in their own home.... Lord knows they aren't anywhere else.... There is a lot to tolerate in this big bad world.... Why should they have to tolerate it in their own home? It is not the child who should be offended.... Never ever offend a child....

My pastor spoke once about removing a certain person from the church.... Apparently that person was trying to get the girls in the youth group to do inappropriate things with him.... And he was a grown adult! Some folks told our pastor that that wasn't walking in love....

He said it most certainly was.... It was walking in love towards those girls....

My point is that sometimes you must turn away from one person in order to walk in love toward another.... Especially if that other is a child in their own home.... The adult who was offended for some silly reason over a teddy bear can kick rocks....

GitRDunn
May 6th 2012, 04:45 AM
Just out of curiosity MoreMercy, if someone is offended by your Bible, do you remove that from the house as well?

MoreMercy
May 6th 2012, 04:46 AM
I don't let just anyone into my home anymore.... Precisely because of things like this.... I know what I believe.... And I don't have any symbols of worship hanging in my house except a wooden cross my daughter painted for me a few years back.... I don't worship it.... I hang my necklaces on it :LOL:....

Your home is your safe haven.... Your own place to go when you need to step out of the world for a while.... If someone walks into your home and is offended by a teddy bear.... Gently show them to the door and bid them a good day.... Your children should be safe in their own home.... Lord knows they aren't anywhere else.... There is a lot to tolerate in this big bad world.... Why should they have to tolerate it in their own home? It is not the child who should be offended.... Never ever offend a child....

My pastor spoke once about removing a certain person from the church.... Apparently that person was trying to get the girls in the youth group to do inappropriate things with him.... And he was a grown adult! Some folks told our pastor that that wasn't walking in love....

He said it most certainly was.... It was walking in love towards those girls....

My point is that sometimes you must turn away from one person in order to walk in love toward another.... Especially if that other is a child in their own home.... The adult who was offended for some silly reason over a teddy bear can kick rocks....

God bless you and your house more and more.

MaryFreeman
May 6th 2012, 04:50 AM
Just out of curiosity MoreMercy, if someone is offended by your Bible, do you remove that from the house as well?
Great gravy! Don't let 'em come to my house! There's bibles everywhere!

claybevan
May 6th 2012, 04:50 AM
I don't let just anyone into my home anymore.... Precisely because of things like this.... I know what I believe.... And I don't have any symbols of worship hanging in my house except a wooden cross my daughter painted for me a few years back.... I don't worship it.... I hang my necklaces on it :lol:....

Your home is your safe haven.... Your own place to go when you need to step out of the world for a while.... If someone walks into your home and is offended by a teddy bear.... Gently show them to the door and bid them a good day.... Your children should be safe in their own home.... Lord knows they aren't anywhere else.... There is a lot to tolerate in this big bad world.... Why should they have to tolerate it in their own home? It is not the child who should be offended.... Never ever offend a child....

My pastor spoke once about removing a certain person from the church.... Apparently that person was trying to get the girls in the youth group to do inappropriate things with him.... And he was a grown adult! Some folks told our pastor that that wasn't walking in love....

He said it most certainly was.... It was walking in love towards those girls....

My point is that sometimes you must turn away from one person in order to walk in love toward another.... Especially if that other is a child in their own home.... The adult who was offended for some silly reason over a teddy bear can kick rocks....

Kick rocks, not only am I learning more about the Hebrew language, the American lingo rocks as well.

MoreMercy
May 6th 2012, 04:52 AM
Just out of curiosity MoreMercy, if someone is offended by your Bible, do you remove that from the house as well?


Why do you willfully allow your eye blind:
This is the only hoop I will jump through for you:

If someone in the same house/under-the-same-roof is offended by a child's toy or any other thing in that same house, then the stuffed-bear/toy "or" the offended person should be taken out of that house.

But if the bear/toy is taken out of that house then it should be made very, very clear and brought to the child's remembrance often that the toy was taken out of the house to keep peace and to demonstrate love in the house toward the first person offended by the toy.

The child is now offended, but that child takes that stripe for another person by and because the child will now know and practice love toward that person who was first offended, just as Christ Jesus did take stripes for us and not for Himself.

Mat 18:6
Mat 18:7
Mat 18:9




Father have mercy on us.

claybevan
May 6th 2012, 04:53 AM
God bless you and your house more and more.

How comes Mary gets a God bless you and your house and I get's a ' you're in error'
Mary, what's the secret.;)

MoreMercy
May 6th 2012, 04:57 AM
How comes Mary gets a God bless you and your house and I get's a ' you're in error'
Mary, what's the secret.;)


Do you serve your god for blessings or for spoken blessings from men ?

There is evidence which speaks for its own truth which blesses the ones who walk in God's Spirit whether the blessing are or will be spoken by men or not.

I did not pronounce or proclaim a blessing upon Mary, I acknowledged the evidence which speaks for it's own truth of her blessings from God.

Light exposes error.

MaryFreeman
May 6th 2012, 04:59 AM
How comes Mary gets a God bless you and your house and I get's a ' you're in error'
Mary, what's the secret.;)
Greasy Grace.... :D :lol:

claybevan
May 6th 2012, 05:05 AM
Do you serve your god for blessings or for spoken blessings from men ?

There is evidence which speaks for its own truth which blesses the ones who walk in God's Spirit whether the blessing are or will be spoken by men or not.

I did not pronounce or proclaim a blessing upon Mary, I acknowledged her blessings from God.

Light exposes error.

Dear MoreMercy, it was meant in fun!

claybevan
May 6th 2012, 05:09 AM
Greasy Grace.... :D :lol:

I'll have some of that. :lol:

MoreMercy
May 6th 2012, 05:10 AM
Dear MoreMercy, it was meant in fun!
It was worked and produced from idle vanity/non-reverence toward the sanctity of truth and good.


Earlier for a good reason: I recommended that you take your burden to Christ Jesus, and not to me.

claybevan, I do take my burdens to my Master and He has His Father's ear, and has command of His Father's arm/strength so beware of my unshakable foundation because I take my burdens there.
You would do good and keep peace near you if keep silent in your idle. Or better yet, allow no idle.

claybevan
May 6th 2012, 05:13 AM
It was worked and produced from idle vanity/non-reverence to the sanctity of truth and good.



I do take my burdens to my Master and He has His Father's ear, and command of His Father's arm/strength.
You would do good and keep peace near you if keep silent.
:giveup:......................

MaryFreeman
May 6th 2012, 05:36 AM
:giveup:......................
Don't worry darling.... I love you :blushhap:....