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TheBibleExposed
Jul 5th 2012, 08:18 PM
http://youtu.be/b_B6QS4ypBg

This week being the week of the 4th of July celebrating our Independence from Great Britain. I decided to research what our country was founded on. Was is Christianity? Or was it just merely the concepts of freedom? Where was God in all of it? Also what did the PEOPLE from that era believe in? I am looking forward to your opinions to help me dive deepr into these concepts and the blessings God has for America based on the scripture.

Colight
Jul 6th 2012, 12:19 AM
This week being the week of the 4th of July celebrating our Independence from Great Britain. I decided to research what our country was founded on. Was is Christianity? Or was it just merely the concepts of freedom? Where was God in all of it? Also what did the PEOPLE from that era believe in? I am looking forward to your opinions to help me dive deepr into these concepts and the blessings God has for America based on the scripture.

It was not really a Godly nation, rather Godly people that formed a nation.
To make it a Godly nation is tyranny.
The issue with America today is its Godly people, no longer have a focus on doctrine.. rather emotion and experience is used to replace doctrine.
The resulting people who are not Godly for their thoughts are not Godly..therefore the blessings we once had... fade as they are replaced by divine judgement.

TheBibleExposed
Jul 6th 2012, 02:05 AM
It was not really a Godly nation, rather Godly people that formed a nation.
To make it a Godly nation is tyranny.
The issue with America today is its Godly people, no longer have a focus on doctrine.. rather emotion and experience is used to replace doctrine.
The resulting people who are not Godly for their thoughts are not Godly..therefore the blessings we once had... fade as they are replaced by divine judgement.

I think you make an excellent point. One that I make as well in the video. However I still think the only reason we are currently not a totally collapsed nation today is because of the fact that God has included us in His heritage like Israel. This is simply because of the people who founded this country made God their Lord.

teddyv
Jul 6th 2012, 02:57 AM
As it was put to me once, the western world is living on the remnants of the Middle Ages which was probably the foundational period for setting the Judeo-Christian morals and ethics of western society. As we move further and further away from that through modernity and post-modernity, we see less and less.

IMINXTC
Jul 6th 2012, 03:54 AM
The single, most important motivation in the founding was the zeal of men fleeing the persecution of state-church.

The wisdom exemplified by the framers of that first charter is what has, to a very large degree, preserved us to this day.

Watchman
Jul 6th 2012, 03:59 AM
It was not really a Godly nation, rather Godly people that formed a nation.
To make it a Godly nation is tyranny.
Senor Colight,

Something upon which we agree, other than things culinary!

Boo
Jul 6th 2012, 08:53 AM
It was not really a Godly nation, rather Godly people that formed a nation.
To make it a Godly nation is tyranny.
The issue with America today is its Godly people, no longer have a focus on doctrine.. rather emotion and experience is used to replace doctrine.
The resulting people who are not Godly for their thoughts are not Godly..therefore the blessings we once had... fade as they are replaced by divine judgement.

Since the term "godly" can imply different views, let's say that these early settlers formed their own denominational communes. They were each different in some degree and they did not necessarily love their neighbors. These early states actually had state churches, funded by the states, but people were free to move from state to state to determine how they wanted to live.

Yes, it was a place of religious freedom, but you might have to move to the correct one according to your own view.

It was a collection of "godly men" who formed our nation in the beginning, and God was the one in which the group in general place their trust - denomination aside. That each knew that the moral principles that God gave us should determine our laws.

They did not force their denominations on one another unless you wanted to live in their community.

AndrewBaptistFL
Jul 6th 2012, 10:33 AM
Regardless of our views on the United States regarding eschatology, throughout the Bible we see blessings and curses given based on our obedience to the Lord. If we think we are immune to curses if we rebel, we are mistaken as even Israel was punished over and over...we don’t even have the promises given to Israel as a nation.

TheBibleExposed
Jul 6th 2012, 12:14 PM
Not sure I agree with this. Christ was the beginning of all things new. Curses did not carry over from the old covenant under grace.

AndrewBaptistFL
Jul 6th 2012, 12:20 PM
Not sure I agree with this. Christ was the beginning of all things new. Curses did not carry over from the old covenant under grace.

Romans 2:9-11
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

Colight
Jul 6th 2012, 12:22 PM
I think you make an excellent point. One that I make as well in the video. However I still think the only reason we are currently not a totally collapsed nation today is because of the fact that God has included us in His heritage like Israel. This is simply because of the people who founded this country made God their Lord.

Well the founders are long dead now..

Rome fell and so will the USA.. The US is all ready in its death pangs.
Historically we are on our way out..
No manufacturing base.
The common lie is traded for the truth.. with the result of attacking the productive and making gods out of the non-productive.
The land is soaked with the blood of the innocent as we refuse to execute murder s, Rapists and drug pushers.
Those who do right are regarded as evil..
And the Christians are all caught up in false doctrines and emotion worship.

What is there for God to bless?
He destroyed his own nation, he will more so destroy a corrupt gentile one.

John 8:32
Jul 6th 2012, 12:37 PM
Well the founders are long dead now..

Rome fell and so will the USA.. The US is all ready in its death pangs.
Historically we are on our way out..
No manufacturing base.
The common lie is traded for the truth.. with the result of attacking the productive and making gods out of the non-productive.
The land is soaked with the blood of the innocent as we refuse to execute murder s, Rapists and drug pushers.
Those who do right are regarded as evil..
And the Christians are all caught up in false doctrines and emotion worship.

What is there for God to bless?
He destroyed his own nation, he will more so destroy a corrupt gentile one.

The United States is Manesseh, Britain is Ephraim. Together, we are modern day Israel (Gen 48:16). With this in mind, read Lev 26 and Deut 28.

AndrewBaptistFL
Jul 6th 2012, 12:41 PM
The United States is Manesseh, Britain is Ephraim. Together, we are modern day Israel (Gen 48:16). With this in mind, read Lev 26 and Deut 28.

How are we making this assumption?

TheBibleExposed
Jul 6th 2012, 01:12 PM
Romans 2:9-11
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

So you are saying because of this verse God will curse us? I disagree. Christ died on the cross for this exact reason. To allow redemption, mercy and grace. Will we all face judgement? Absolutely. However this text in no way implies a curse. This verse is talking about more to the glass half full.. Glory, honor and peace, to both sides of his body. It is setting the example that God is not showing favoritism to either the gentile or the Jew. Trouble and distress is the curse adam and eve brought into the world.. the results of sin. This has nothing to do with new covenant curses.

Psalm 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord,
the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!

This verse is a perfect example of how the new covenant grafts in the olive branch to God's Heritage.

The United States is in God's Favor because of the intentions of freedom and nation formed seeking God.

TheBibleExposed
Jul 6th 2012, 01:14 PM
Well the founders are long dead now..

Rome fell and so will the USA.. The US is all ready in its death pangs.
Historically we are on our way out..
No manufacturing base.
The common lie is traded for the truth.. with the result of attacking the productive and making gods out of the non-productive.
The land is soaked with the blood of the innocent as we refuse to execute murder s, Rapists and drug pushers.
Those who do right are regarded as evil..
And the Christians are all caught up in false doctrines and emotion worship.

What is there for God to bless?
He destroyed his own nation, he will more so destroy a corrupt gentile one.

Does anyone understand that God is not in the business of destruction anymore?

Slug1
Jul 6th 2012, 01:24 PM
Does anyone understand that God is not in the business of destruction anymore?Define destruction.

I ask because God even tells us all that He has to tie one of His own hands behind His back when He begins to bring destruction upon the whole world during the end-times. Otherwise NO one would live through it at all.

TheBibleExposed
Jul 6th 2012, 01:37 PM
Yes in the end times it's a different story. But at the present God will not destroy the US. More importantly. Israel themselves are still under Gods promises. When God promises a blessing it stays with you until he decides to take it away. Generation to generation Gods blessings stay with you despite your actions. Only when God chooses to remove a blessing is it taken away.

AndrewBaptistFL
Jul 6th 2012, 01:53 PM
So you are saying because of this verse God will curse us? I disagree. Christ died on the cross for this exact reason. To allow redemption, mercy and grace. Will we all face judgement? Absolutely. However this text in no way implies a curse. This verse is talking about more to the glass half full.. Glory, honor and peace, to both sides of his body. It is setting the example that God is not showing favoritism to either the gentile or the Jew. Trouble and distress is the curse adam and eve brought into the world.. the results of sin. This has nothing to do with new covenant curses.

Psalm 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord,
the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!

This verse is a perfect example of how the new covenant grafts in the olive branch to God's Heritage.

The United States is in God's Favor because of the intentions of freedom and nation formed seeking God.

Are you saying that an unrepentant nation is saved by grace and may continue unchecked in doing the very things the Lord said not to do?
Whomever founded the U.S. is long dead and whatever their policies and practices were, we've only become more depraved over the years to the point where we are "medically and sugercally" murdering babies in (and out of) the womb and calling evil good in the form of homosexual unions...corruption and greed have spred like wildfire, laziness is rewarded, lawyers pervert the legal system and let the guilty free.....and still as a collective we are under the unconditional grace of the God we've proven ourselves to be haters of (collectively)?

TheBibleExposed
Jul 6th 2012, 02:18 PM
Are you saying that an unrepentant nation is saved by grace and may continue unchecked in doing the very things the Lord said not to do?
Whomever founded the U.S. is long dead and whatever their policies and practices were, we've only become more depraved over the years to the point where we are "medically and sugercally" murdering babies in (and out of) the womb and calling evil good in the form of homosexual unions...corruption and greed have spred like wildfire, laziness is rewarded, lawyers pervert the legal system and let the guilty free.....and still as a collective we are under the unconditional grace of the God we've proven ourselves to be haters of (collectively)?


YES! That is exactly what I am saying. This country as a whole is made up of people. Jesus ministered to the least of the people. The SINNERS! Grace is grace, not only when you are ok with the brand of sin. God blessed this country as a whole of people... not the land or the government.. you should be grateful for those that are passed and gone. That blessing has carried through the generations of this country. Show me your scriptural back to where God says he will curse the redeemed. In the meantime here are a few verses to remind you of how jesus handled sinners

John 8:7-11
And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground.9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him.10 Jesus stood up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."

Colight
Jul 6th 2012, 04:58 PM
Does anyone understand that God is not in the business of destruction anymore?

Matthew 10
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and a man's enemies will be the members of his household.


Yep all peace and love..

TheBibleExposed
Jul 6th 2012, 05:14 PM
Matthew 10
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and a man's enemies will be the members of his household.


Yep all peace and love..

Wow that is sooooo irresponsible to use those verses without using the rest to keep it in context.

Matthew 10
37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

This is not talking about destruction... Jesus is speaking about the fact that salvation isnt a popular choice... Choosing to serve Christ/God will be an unpopular one at times. Even your father, mother, your own children may not agree with salvation. that destroys peace yes.. but it is sooooooo far from destruction.

AndrewBaptistFL
Jul 6th 2012, 07:28 PM
YES! That is exactly what I am saying. This country as a whole is made up of people. Jesus ministered to the least of the people. The SINNERS! Grace is grace, not only when you are ok with the brand of sin. God blessed this country as a whole of people... not the land or the government.. you should be grateful for those that are passed and gone. That blessing has carried through the generations of this country. Show me your scriptural back to where God says he will curse the redeemed. In the meantime here are a few verses to remind you of how jesus handled sinners

John 8:7-11
And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground.9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him.10 Jesus stood up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."

How is it that you consider the U.S. as a whole as redeemed? When did God bless this country as a whole of people forever?

Colight
Jul 7th 2012, 10:38 AM
Wow that is sooooo irresponsible to use those verses without using the rest to keep it in context.

Matthew 10
37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

This is not talking about destruction... Jesus is speaking about the fact that salvation isnt a popular choice... Choosing to serve Christ/God will be an unpopular one at times. Even your father, mother, your own children may not agree with salvation. that destroys peace yes.. but it is sooooooo far from destruction.

It is not salvation he is speaking about..
God has remained true .. those who reject his doctrine are in conflict with those who follow it.
This not just believer vs unbeliever..
this is also believer vs believer...
as one will follow truth vs the one who rejects doctrine and follows another doctrine.

Those who reject his truth ..God Will destroy thru discipline..even believers he will destroy when they reject his truth.

Boo
Jul 8th 2012, 12:16 PM
It is not salvation he is speaking about..
God has remained true .. those who reject his doctrine are in conflict with those who follow it.
This not just believer vs unbeliever..
this is also believer vs believer...
as one will follow truth vs the one who rejects doctrine and follows another doctrine.

Those who reject his truth ..God Will destroy thru discipline..even believers he will destroy when they reject his truth.

I see a possible problem here: people think that their doctrine IS truth. What is sad is that most people I speak to do not know WHY they should believe that the doctrine that they have been taught is true - it just is.

If we would all read the scriptures and, for ourselves, honestly look at all verses that speak of the issues concerning our doctrine, THEN we could explain why we believe what we do. If we did that honestly, I really think that there would not be as many conflicting doctrines.

It is easier to just accept what your pastor tells you. I'd bet that most pastors are simply repeating what they have been taught.

steelcurtain76
Jul 8th 2012, 07:38 PM
Well the founders are long dead now..

Rome fell and so will the USA.. The US is all ready in its death pangs.
Historically we are on our way out..
No manufacturing base.
The common lie is traded for the truth.. with the result of attacking the productive and making gods out of the non-productive.
The land is soaked with the blood of the innocent as we refuse to execute murder s, Rapists and drug pushers.
Those who do right are regarded as evil..
And the Christians are all caught up in false doctrines and emotion worship.

What is there for God to bless?
He destroyed his own nation, he will more so destroy a corrupt gentile one.

Great...GREAT...Post!!!!!

The United States is not the same United States it was when I was a child in the 70's. I'm sure the previous generation could say the same thing about the 70's. It's not about technology, but about...

- increased and accepted immorality,
- society calling sin an acceptable act now in many cases,
- people in leadership calling an unborn child a choice rather than a human being,
- increased intollerance toward anyone wanting to live according to the Bible,

I'm not even talking about the non-churched, I'm talking about those who say that they are Christians too. You can find this in many churches in the United States. It's funny to read what people call "Christian Polls"....because not all of the people polled are actually followers of Jesus. Just because people darken the door of a church building, doesn't make them a Believer.

steelcurtain76
Jul 8th 2012, 07:45 PM
Does anyone understand that God is not in the business of destruction anymore?

According to 2 Peter 3, the doors of destruction are still open for business.

steelcurtain76
Jul 8th 2012, 07:56 PM
YES! That is exactly what I am saying. This country as a whole is made up of people. Jesus ministered to the least of the people. The SINNERS! Grace is grace, not only when you are ok with the brand of sin. God blessed this country as a whole of people... not the land or the government.. you should be grateful for those that are passed and gone. That blessing has carried through the generations of this country. Show me your scriptural back to where God says he will curse the redeemed. In the meantime here are a few verses to remind you of how jesus handled sinners

John 8:7-11
And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground.9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him.10 Jesus stood up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."

This could very easily venture into a OSAS discussion again.

I will say this, all you have to do is watch an unrepentent Christian and the course his/her life takes on. The book of Hebrews says that the state of someone who knows the truth and turns their back on it is in worse condition than before they ever knew the truth. Look at once faithful Christians who left their families for another and tell me that God is not in the business of allowing that person's life to fall into destruction. You can't do it. As the Bible says, God disciplines those he loves. Sometimes, that discipline is the destruction of the person's life to bring them to repentence.

If God will allow an unrepentent Christian to fall into destruction, surely he will allow a nation to do the same.

TheBibleExposed
Jul 9th 2012, 12:27 AM
It is not salvation he is speaking about..
God has remained true .. those who reject his doctrine are in conflict with those who follow it.
This not just believer vs unbeliever..
this is also believer vs believer...
as one will follow truth vs the one who rejects doctrine and follows another doctrine.

Those who reject his truth ..God Will destroy thru discipline..even believers he will destroy when they reject his truth.

fair enough.. but salvation is the truth... and Jesus is the word... still is not = to destruction.



This could very easily venture into a OSAS discussion again.

I will say this, all you have to do is watch an unrepentent Christian and the course his/her life takes on. The book of Hebrews says that the state of someone who knows the truth and turns their back on it is in worse condition than before they ever knew the truth. Look at once faithful Christians who left their families for another and tell me that God is not in the business of allowing that person's life to fall into destruction. You can't do it. As the Bible says, God disciplines those he loves. Sometimes, that discipline is the destruction of the person's life to bring them to repentence.

If God will allow an unrepentent Christian to fall into destruction, surely he will allow a nation to do the same.

Allowing something to happen is not the same as raining fire from heaven or flooding the earth.. Do you want a God of destruction more than a God of mercy and grace?


Well the founders are long dead now..

Rome fell and so will the USA.. The US is all ready in its death pangs.
Historically we are on our way out..
No manufacturing base.
The common lie is traded for the truth.. with the result of attacking the productive and making gods out of the non-productive.
The land is soaked with the blood of the innocent as we refuse to execute murder s, Rapists and drug pushers.
Those who do right are regarded as evil..
And the Christians are all caught up in false doctrines and emotion worship.

What is there for God to bless?
He destroyed his own nation, he will more so destroy a corrupt gentile one.

I am not in the business of stating what God will do. I do know that God sent his Son to redeem us.. allow us a chance at eternal life. I tend to dwell in what the word says to be true, not what I think may be possible based on my interpretation



How is it that you consider the U.S. as a whole as redeemed? When did God bless this country as a whole of people forever?

you tend to take words and turn them into what you want i see.. I was referring to those that have found Christ in this country. That is why I asked for your scriptural references to show that God will destroy that which he sacrificed his own son to save. Why? A little counter intuitive don't you think? Let them hear the salvation message . .give them an opportunity for eternal life.. and when they except destroy the country they live in..

steelcurtain76
Jul 9th 2012, 01:07 AM
Allowing something to happen is not the same as raining fire from heaven or flooding the earth.. Do you want a God of destruction more than a God of mercy and grace?



You don't know that God doesn't "rain" anything down on people or nations today. I have seen evidence that He in fact just might do that to get that person's attention. Just because he does, doesn't make him not full of grace and mercy.

I want God to be God and me to worship him in Spirit and in Truth.

Colight
Jul 9th 2012, 01:28 AM
I see a possible problem here: people think that their doctrine IS truth. What is sad is that most people I speak to do not know WHY they should believe that the doctrine that they have been taught is true - it just is.

If we would all read the scriptures and, for ourselves, honestly look at all verses that speak of the issues concerning our doctrine, THEN we could explain why we believe what we do. If we did that honestly, I really think that there would not be as many conflicting doctrines.

It is easier to just accept what your pastor tells you. I'd bet that most pastors are simply repeating what they have been taught.

I think people also add their own flair..to doctrines they do not accept or find challenging.
How many times do we hear, for example
" I don't believe a loving God will send people to eternal Damnation.."

Colight
Jul 9th 2012, 01:31 AM
Great...GREAT...Post!!!!!

The United States is not the same United States it was when I was a child in the 70's. I'm sure the previous generation could say the same thing about the 70's. It's not about technology, but about...

- increased and accepted immorality,
- society calling sin an acceptable act now in many cases,
- people in leadership calling an unborn child a choice rather than a human being,
- increased intollerance toward anyone wanting to live according to the Bible,

I'm not even talking about the non-churched, I'm talking about those who say that they are Christians too. You can find this in many churches in the United States. It's funny to read what people call "Christian Polls"....because not all of the people polled are actually followers of Jesus. Just because people darken the door of a church building, doesn't make them a Believer.


Good points.
However they are the symptoms of the sickness not the sickness.'
Many Christians go on crusade on the symptoms and ignore the cause.

The sickness is rejection of Bible doctrine, to follow emotions or other doctrines.

Colight
Jul 9th 2012, 02:33 AM
The United States is Manesseh, Britain is Ephraim. Together, we are modern day Israel (Gen 48:16). With this in mind, read Lev 26 and Deut 28.


Well that is one way to look at things.

However we are gentile nations
The Promise to Abraham is based on race, that being his seed.
America is not the Jewish Nation of the seed of Abraham...
Therefore we are not the modern day Israel.

amazzin
Jul 9th 2012, 02:36 AM
The United States is Manesseh, Britain is Ephraim. Together, we are modern day Israel (Gen 48:16). With this in mind, read Lev 26 and Deut 28.

Sounds to me like stuff from the World Wide Church of God (Armstrongism) - a cult. Are you a member of this cult?

Colight
Jul 9th 2012, 02:42 AM
I am not in the business of stating what God will do. I do know that God sent his Son to redeem us.. allow us a chance at eternal life. I tend to dwell in what the word says to be true, not what I think may be possible based on my interpretation





Yet Romans 11
is quite Clear..



17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

These branches broken off refer to the Jews. If God would not spare his natural branches when they turned to unbelief, he will not spare the USA, when its believers turn to unbelief.

This is quite clear in scripture..
Do not turn to unbelief and you will be nourished by the vine.
In the USA the Believers no longer seek doctrine.. they have a unbelief when it comes to truth.
Therefore the USA will be cut off, because of the unbelief of its believers.