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Eyelog
Jul 11th 2012, 05:28 PM
Have you seen the poplular children's film, "All Dogs Go to HeaVen?"

Theologically challenged program, to say the least. LOL.

But what are we to make of these passages?


Psalm 49:11-13, 19-20

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11 Their inner thought is that their houses are forever
And their dwelling places to all generations;
They have called their lands after their own names.
12 But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.

13 This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words.
... 19 He shall go to the generation of his fathers;
They will never see the light.
20 Man in his pomp, yet without understanding,
Is like the beasts that perish.



2 Peter 2:12-16

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, 13 suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; 15 forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.

i don't get the sense the writers are speaking of the Beast from Revelation. :)

So, what is the fate of our pets and all animals?

I know that if they take a human life, they won't go unpunished.


Genesis 9
5 Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it.

Well, help me out here. :)

Walls
Jul 11th 2012, 06:54 PM
Have you seen the poplular children's film, "All Dogs Go to HeaVen?"

Theologically challenged program, to say the least. LOL.

But what are we to make of these passages?

........

i don't get the sense the writers are speaking of the Beast from Revelation. :)

So, what is the fate of our pets and all animals?

I know that if they take a human life, they won't go unpunished.

.....

Well, help me out here. :)

Man and the animal are tripartite beings. They have body, soul and spirit. The Body is the vessel or tent, the soul is the creature and the spirit is that part that enlivens or gives vitality. Man is different to the beast in that he is created in the image of God. So Ecclesiastes Chapters 3 and 12 give the sequence at death. Both the man and the animal's body go back to the earth. But at death the spirit of the beast goes to the earth whilst that of the man returns to God to wait resurrection. The soul of a man goes to place called Hades under the earth to wait resurrection when the body, soul and spirit are united (Eccl.3:19-21, 12:7; 1st Ki.17:22; Lk.8:55).

If you kill a beast willfully or accidentally you have not done anything in the grand scheme of things and the beast ceases to exist. Thus you may "kill and eat" at the command of God (Act.10:13). If you kill a man your blood is to be required of you because you struck a blow at the image of God (Gen.9:5-6).

By the way, there are approximately 293 verses in the New Testament containing the word "heaven", "heavens" and "heavenly." Not one of them says that man's destiny is heaven.

claybevan
Jul 11th 2012, 07:39 PM
Man and the animal are tripartite beings. They have body, soul and spirit. The Body is the vessel or tent, the soul is the creature and the spirit is that part that enlivens or gives vitality. Man is different to the beast in that he is created in the image of God. So Ecclesiastes Chapters 3 and 12 give the sequence at death. Both the man and the animal's body go back to the earth. But at death the spirit of the beast goes to the earth whilst that of the man returns to God to wait resurrection. The soul of a man goes to place called Hades under the earth to wait resurrection when the body, soul and spirit are united (Eccl.3:19-21, 12:7; 1st Ki.17:22; Lk.8:55).

If you kill a beast willfully or accidentally you have not done anything in the grand scheme of things and the beast ceases to exist. Thus you may "kill and eat" at the command of God (Act.10:13). If you kill a man your blood is to be required of you because you struck a blow at the image of God (Gen.9:5-6).

By the way, there are approximately 293 verses in the New Testament containing the word "heaven", "heavens" and "heavenly." Not one of them says that man's destiny is heaven.

Do animals have a spirit ?, I have alway thought that the difference was that unlike us they were only body and soul.

keck553
Jul 11th 2012, 07:56 PM
Horses are in heaven. Yeshua's coming back on one.

BrianW
Jul 11th 2012, 08:03 PM
The bible seems pretty clear that animals will exist in the new earth/the world to come but it does not say that, for example, my old dog Razor (Who was an excellent dog in every way) will be brought out from the grave to be there with me or not.
I've read discussions of this topic on many forums and heard it discussed by many Christians over the years and the final consensus is usually always pretty much the same.

There just isn't enough said in scripture to tell us one way or the other.

Free Indeed
Jul 11th 2012, 08:14 PM
Do animals have a spirit ?, I have alway thought that the difference was that unlike us they were only body and soul.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "spirit", "soul", and if these two words mean different things.

Outside of the human species, we see that the higher species, especially other mammals, have individual personalities and are sentient. If that's not "soul" or "spirit", I don't know what is.

amazzin
Jul 11th 2012, 08:20 PM
Not all dogs will be in heaven. I am particularly interceding ona few in my neck of teh woods to be excluded.

keck553
Jul 11th 2012, 08:20 PM
The bible seems pretty clear that animals will exist in the new earth/the world to come but it does not say that, for example, my old dog Razor (Who was an excellent dog in every way) will be brought out from the grave to be there with me or not.
I've read discussions of this topic on many forums and heard it discussed by many Christians over the years and the final consensus is usually always pretty much the same.

There just isn't enough said in scripture to tell us one way or the other.

It's one of those cool things you'll get to find out one day.

claybevan
Jul 11th 2012, 11:02 PM
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "spirit", "soul", and if these two words mean different things.

Outside of the human species, we see that the higher species, especially other mammals, have individual personalities and are sentient. If that's not "soul" or "spirit", I don't know what is.

I'm not brilliant at explaining what I think but it's what this guy says below.

The spirit is always referred to as the immaterial part of man. Man is not a spirit, he has a spirit. I believe the soul (psyche) is just what the greek word implies... the makeup of man. You are different from every other person. The thing that makes Raymond Raymond is the soul. The soul is how you relate to others and how you understand yourself. The spirit is how you relate to God. When you are reborn, you are born of spirit (John 3:5-6). The spirit is part of the soul, much like the mind is part of the soul. It is the soul, though, that comprises who you are.

Animals don't have a spirit per se- they don't seek God. Plants have a body, animals have a body and soul (they are capable of relating to man and other animals), but only man has a spirit. Both the soul and spirit pass when man dies, thus you will be recognizable as Raymond in the coming resurrection (ref Matt 17:3) and you will as a believer forever be able to fellowship with God. You will be given a new body (1 Cor 15:51-55), but you will be you.

Read more: http://www.comereason.org/theo_issues/theo070.asp#ixzz20MEx3Zmq

Walls
Jul 12th 2012, 04:13 AM
Do animals have a spirit ?, I have alway thought that the difference was that unlike us they were only body and soul.

I realize many posters belong to that small percentage of the world's population that, for their pleasure, keep, feed and give animals medical benefits over and above what the rest of peoples of the world get for themselves. And the interest among this small percentage of the world's population, having invested so much emotionally and fiscally, is great, especially when it comes to their pet's death. But as this is "Bible Chat" we observe from the bible (verses given above) that after the flood God gave man EVERY MOVING THING THAT LIVES to eat except their blood. We also observe that if God says that the SPIRIT of a beast goes to the earth in the same verse as He deals with the SPIRIT of a man, that (a) these two are similar, and (b) they are different from the body which goes to the earth. Thus the question of a beast having a spirit similar to a human is answered for us. So is its destiny. It might be nice to speculate that your favorite poodle or horse went to heaven, but the fact of the matter, at least in that grand Book, the bible, is that dear poodle has no more future than the lamb or calf that is being slaughtered right now for human consumption.

The answer that there must be horses in heaven as Christ comes upon a horse in the Book of Revelation was the only answer from the bible and as such a good one. But consider this. The very first verse of Revelation tells us that what John was shown was "signified". Vine tells us that this word means "shown by signs." Thus, the horse, being a sign of strength in other parts of the bible (Job.39:19; Ps.33:17), is most likely a sign. Strength to this argument is added when we see that the other horses carrying famine and death and even Hades (Rev.6:8) also were observed from or in heaven.

Realist1981
Jul 12th 2012, 01:01 PM
Isaiah 11 (NIV)

11 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him—
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of might,
the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the Lord—
3 and he will delight in the fear of the Lord.He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,
or decide by what he hears with his ears;
4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.
5 Righteousness will be his belt
and faithfulness the sash around his waist.

6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling[a (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NIV-17891a)] together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.

10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious. 11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush,[b (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NIV-17896b)] from Elam, from Babylonia,[c (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NIV-17896c)] from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.
12 He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth.
13 Ephraim’s jealousy will vanish,
and Judah’s enemies[d (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NIV-17898d)] will be destroyed;
Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah,
nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim.
14 They will swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west;
together they will plunder the people to the east.
They will subdue Edom and Moab,
and the Ammonites will be subject to them.
15 The Lord will dry up
the gulf of the Egyptian sea;
with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand
over the Euphrates River.
He will break it up into seven streams
so that anyone can cross over in sandals.
16 There will be a highway for the remnant of his people
that is left from Assyria,
as there was for Israel
when they came up from Egypt.



I believe that this scripture is speaking of Christ's millinium reign on earth.
It seems like the animal kingdom ceases to be a Dog eat Dog world.

That's not to say that "Dogs go to heaven". For example if your dog dies today it ceases to exist. However, there will be animals in the New Jerusalem.

claybevan
Jul 12th 2012, 03:10 PM
I realize many posters belong to that small percentage of the world's population that, for their pleasure, keep, feed and give animals medical benefits over and above what the rest of peoples of the world get for themselves. And the interest among this small percentage of the world's population, having invested so much emotionally and fiscally, is great, especially when it comes to their pet's death. But as this is "Bible Chat" we observe from the bible (verses given above) that after the flood God gave man EVERY MOVING THING THAT LIVES to eat except their blood. We also observe that if God says that the SPIRIT of a beast goes to the earth in the same verse as He deals with the SPIRIT of a man, that (a) these two are similar, and (b) they are different from the body which goes to the earth. Thus the question of a beast having a spirit similar to a human is answered for us. So is its destiny. It might be nice to speculate that your favorite poodle or horse went to heaven, but the fact of the matter, at least in that grand Book, the bible, is that dear poodle has no more future than the lamb or calf that is being slaughtered right now for human consumption.

The answer that there must be horses in heaven as Christ comes upon a horse in the Book of Revelation was the only answer from the bible and as such a good one. But consider this. The very first verse of Revelation tells us that what John was shown was "signified". Vine tells us that this word means "shown by signs." Thus, the horse, being a sign of strength in other parts of the bible (Job.39:19; Ps.33:17), is most likely a sign. Strength to this argument is added when we see that the other horses carrying famine and death and even Hades (Rev.6:8) also were observed from or in heaven.

I am sure that there will be animals in heaven and probably amazing creatures we have never seen, I just don't think they will be our dead pets or animals that have lived on earth and died.
I do believe they have souls, that's quite evident in many animals but as you say they do not have a spirit and that sadly counts them out of joining us in heaven.

I

Walls
Jul 12th 2012, 03:25 PM
I am sure that there will be animals in heaven and probably amazing creatures we have never seen, I just don't think they will be our dead pets or animals that have lived on earth and died.
I do believe they have souls, that's quite evident in many animals but as you say they do not have a spirit and that sadly counts them out of joining us in heaven.

I

I know that sometimes things get missed among all the writing on these forums, but just to be clear on what I said above in posting #2, and what Ecclesiastes says, animals DO have a spirit. It is what enlivens them or gives them life. It is just that at death the spirit of the beast goes to the earth while that of a man goes back to God to wait for the resurrection (Eccl.3:21; Gen.2:7, 6:17, 7:15, 22; Job.33:4).

God Bless

claybevan
Jul 12th 2012, 10:17 PM
I know that sometimes things get missed among all the writing on these forums, but just to be clear on what I said above in posting #2, and what Ecclesiastes says, animals DO have a spirit. It is what enlivens them or gives them life. It is just that at death the spirit of the beast goes to the earth while that of a man goes back to God to wait for the resurrection (Eccl.3:21; Gen.2:7, 6:17, 7:15, 22; Job.33:4).

God Bless
Sorry Walls, me not reading properly again. Rash female at it again:rolleyes:
God bless you too.

PJW
Jul 14th 2012, 02:50 AM
If my holy Father is going to bless me with eternal life, a seat at a table with Jesus, a spot with the angels to sing praises to my Savior, and everything that is heaven, would He refuse to allow the animal friends I have loved here to join me there?
Just one more reason to love Him.

Waterlight
Jul 14th 2012, 06:02 PM
If my holy Father is going to bless me with eternal life, a seat at a table with Jesus, a spot with the angels to sing praises to my Savior, and everything that is heaven, would He refuse to allow the animal friends I have loved here to join me there?
Just one more reason to love Him.

I don't understand your reasoning behind this. Seem's like this is an assumption, I would love to 'believe and assume' my dear pet's of past are going to be with me and taken cared of. Though from what I remember in past studies, sermons and Bible college this isn't the case.

I had a long wall of text written out but due to some people's hope in this matter and the fact that I was going to be stepping on some toes I found a site that has is summed up nicely.

link: http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/pets.shtml

PJW
Jul 15th 2012, 02:43 AM
Bible college? No wonder you have so little hope.

EarlyCall
Jul 15th 2012, 11:42 AM
I realize many posters belong to that small percentage of the world's population that, for their pleasure, keep, feed and give animals medical benefits over and above what the rest of peoples of the world get for themselves. And the interest among this small percentage of the world's population, having invested so much emotionally and fiscally, is great, especially when it comes to their pet's death. But as this is "Bible Chat" we observe from the bible (verses given above) that after the flood God gave man EVERY MOVING THING THAT LIVES to eat except their blood. We also observe that if God says that the SPIRIT of a beast goes to the earth in the same verse as He deals with the SPIRIT of a man, that (a) these two are similar, and (b) they are different from the body which goes to the earth. Thus the question of a beast having a spirit similar to a human is answered for us. So is its destiny. It might be nice to speculate that your favorite poodle or horse went to heaven, but the fact of the matter, at least in that grand Book, the bible, is that dear poodle has no more future than the lamb or calf that is being slaughtered right now for human consumption.

The answer that there must be horses in heaven as Christ comes upon a horse in the Book of Revelation was the only answer from the bible and as such a good one. But consider this. The very first verse of Revelation tells us that what John was shown was "signified". Vine tells us that this word means "shown by signs." Thus, the horse, being a sign of strength in other parts of the bible (Job.39:19; Ps.33:17), is most likely a sign. Strength to this argument is added when we see that the other horses carrying famine and death and even Hades (Rev.6:8) also were observed from or in heaven.

You forget something in your all your Bible smarts: the nature of God and His love.

I just deleted everything I typed in order to say only this: I could explain it to you but you wouldn't get it. You don't get it now and so you wouldn't get it with my explanation. But to the point, to reiterate, you've discounted the compassion and love He holds personally for each one of us. Not a general I love the whole bunch of you love but a personal love. That love was deep and committed enough to cause the death of His Son. I suspect that after that, the rest is easy.

euroclydon
Feb 16th 2014, 02:39 AM
Firstly, I want to point out that some will equate "heaven" with "salvation" and the process that a human must go through to obtain salvation.

Therefore, they "conclude" that since animals don't have faith in Christ (e.g.), that they won't "go to heaven". But the commandments of God are directed to His people, not animals. Animals don't have to earn their way to heaven. People do.

Case in point: Rev 21:21 speaks of streets made of gold. Question: what did that gold do to "earn salvation"? Nothing. It's gold. We can't apply what humans must do to other, non-human objects.

Firstly, animals have souls, or (Hebrew) "nephesh".

From the Companion Bible:

Nephesh is used of the Lower Animals only, in twenty-two passages, and is rendered in nine different ways:

1. "creature" Gen. 1:21, 24; 2:19; 9:10, 12. Lev. 11:46.
2. "thing" Lev. 11:10. Ezek. 47:9.
3. "life" Gen. 1:20, 30.
4. "the life" Gen. 9:4. Deut. 12:23. Prov. 12:10.
5. "beast" Lev. 24:18.
6. "the soul" Job 12:10.
7. "breath" Job 41:21.
8. "fish" Isa. 19:10.
9. "her" Jer. 2:24.

Nephesh is used of the Lower Animals and Man in seven passages, and rendered in three different ways:

1. "creature" Gen. 9:15, 16.
2. "the life" Lev. 17:11, 14.
3. "soul" Num. 31:28.

With regards to the loss of our pets, my perspective is two-fold:

1. Flesh

2. Spirit

FLESH:

Ecc. 3:19. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

"The sons of men" are made out of flesh. Animals are flesh. In death, there is no difference between a person and a pet with regards to the flesh: we have a "oneness" with our pets in this respect.

Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

But "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6, and compare John 3:8 to Ecc 11:5, and see 1Co 15:44.

SPIRIT:

(CLV and LITV) Ecc 3:21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of man, whether it goes upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it goes downward to the earth?

The spirit of the man is answered in Ecc 12:7. Both man and animal is mentioned in Psalms 104:21-28.

(LITV) Psa 104:29 You hide Your face, and they are troubled; You gather their breath (ruach = breath or spirit), and they expire and return to their dust.

God Who gathers is also God Who sews.

Deu 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I KILL, AND I MAKE ALIVE; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

percho
Feb 16th 2014, 03:09 AM
I realize many posters belong to that small percentage of the world's population that, for their pleasure, keep, feed and give animals medical benefits over and above what the rest of peoples of the world get for themselves. And the interest among this small percentage of the world's population, having invested so much emotionally and fiscally, is great, especially when it comes to their pet's death. But as this is "Bible Chat" we observe from the bible (verses given above) that after the flood God gave man EVERY MOVING THING THAT LIVES to eat except their blood. We also observe that if God says that the SPIRIT of a beast goes to the earth in the same verse as He deals with the SPIRIT of a man, that (a) these two are similar, and (b) they are different from the body which goes to the earth. Thus the question of a beast having a spirit similar to a human is answered for us. So is its destiny. It might be nice to speculate that your favorite poodle or horse went to heaven, but the fact of the matter, at least in that grand Book, the bible, is that dear poodle has no more future than the lamb or calf that is being slaughtered right now for human consumption.

The answer that there must be horses in heaven as Christ comes upon a horse in the Book of Revelation was the only answer from the bible and as such a good one. But consider this. The very first verse of Revelation tells us that what John was shown was "signified". Vine tells us that this word means "shown by signs." Thus, the horse, being a sign of strength in other parts of the bible (Job.39:19; Ps.33:17), is most likely a sign. Strength to this argument is added when we see that the other horses carrying famine and death and even Hades (Rev.6:8) also were observed from or in heaven.

Thank you and amen to both posts.

euroclydon
Feb 16th 2014, 03:16 AM
Ecclesiastes 3:21 is a question, not a statement.

(CLV and LITV) Ecc 3:21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of man, whether it goes upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it goes downward to the earth?

The spirit of the man is answered in Ecc 12:7. Both man and animal is mentioned in Psalms 104:21-28.

(LITV) Psa 104:29 You hide Your face, and they are troubled; You gather their breath (ruach = breath or spirit), and they expire and return to their dust.

Walls
Feb 16th 2014, 05:11 AM
Ecclesiastes 3:21 is a question, not a statement.

(CLV and LITV) Ecc 3:21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of man, whether it goes upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it goes downward to the earth?

The spirit of the man is answered in Ecc 12:7. Both man and animal is mentioned in Psalms 104:21-28.

(LITV) Psa 104:29 You hide Your face, and they are troubled; You gather their breath (ruach = breath or spirit), and they expire and return to their dust.

Yes. Ecclesiastes 3:21 is a question, but the question is directed at the knowledge of the spirit, not where they go. Example; "Who knows the wealthiest passenger of the jet aircraft that flies overhead?" The unknown is who the wealthiest passenger is. The jet aircraft flying overhead is a given. So too the grammar of Ecclesiastes 3:21. That the spirit of man is mysterious is shown again in John 3:8 and 1st Corinthians 2:10-11.

Psalm 104:29 does not give direction. It only states that at death God removes the spirit of both man and beast. There is no disharmony in scripture.

ChangedByHim
Feb 16th 2014, 02:34 PM
Firstly, I want to point out that some will equate "heaven" with "salvation" and the process that a human must go through to obtain salvation.

Therefore, they "conclude" that since animals don't have faith in Christ (e.g.), that they won't "go to heaven". But the commandments of God are directed to His people, not animals. Animals don't have to earn their way to heaven. People do.

.

Couldn't read pas that since you are making an unscriptural statement. People don't earn their way into heaven. Ever read Ephesians 2:8-9?

euroclydon
Feb 16th 2014, 03:15 PM
Couldn't read pas that since you are making an unscriptural statement. People don't earn their way into heaven. Ever read Ephesians 2:8-9?

Yes. I understand that "earned" is not the correct terminology. i will correct the error in my source.

Since the main idea was to focus on the difference between man and animals, I didn't pay much attention to certain details that did not necessarily contribute.

Some folks are no as nice as you. They would have picked up a minor, non-contributing point to use as a "deflection" to an argument, as opposed to an "argument".

euroclydon
Feb 16th 2014, 03:33 PM
Yes. Ecclesiastes 3:21 is a question, but the question is directed at the knowledge of the spirit, not where they go. Example; "Who knows the wealthiest passenger of the jet aircraft that flies overhead?" The unknown is who the wealthiest passenger is. The jet aircraft flying overhead is a given. So too the grammar of Ecclesiastes 3:21. That the spirit of man is mysterious is shown again in John 3:8 and 1st Corinthians 2:10-11.

Psalm 104:29 does not give direction. It only states that at death God removes the spirit of both man and beast. There is no disharmony in scripture.


??? I don't recall stating that there is disharmony in Scripture. ???

(I'm kidding. The suggestion is a non sequitur.)

I did not suggest "direction" in Psalms 104:29. "You gather their breath" Gather it where? Insufficient data from that verse that the spirit must have necessarily "gone up".

"Heavens" is frequently plural in the Scriptures, the "heaven-lies" are not necessarily something we can point at and say, "They are only over there", and we can't see everything that goes on around us. (E.g. II Kings 6:17)

This is why I referenced several versions, including the Concordant Literal Version.

(CLV and LITV) Ecc 3:21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of man, WHETHER IT goes upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it goes downward to the earth?

"Whether" doesn't appear to have a Hebrew word in that verse, but something in the language has prompted some translators to render it.

Scooby_Snacks
Feb 17th 2014, 03:34 AM
Horses are in heaven. Yeshua's coming back on one.

Yeah!!!
15 char

Senormac
Feb 17th 2014, 10:28 AM
Being a meter reader, I'm hoping no dogs are there :D

BrianW
Feb 17th 2014, 11:52 AM
Some folks are no as nice as you. They would have picked up a minor, non-contributing point to use as a "deflection" to an argument, as opposed to an "argument".

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

It is not a minor point. It is a major point that is part of the cornerstone of Christian theology. As brother CBH pointed out it's hard to consider the rest of what you've written when your premise is flawed.


I didn't pay much attention to certain details that did not necessarily contribute

Words matter sir. They matter a great deal and this is especially true when discussing scripture, theology and doctrine. If you start out with a faulty premise the rest of what you written must be either discounted as lacking credibility or repudiated so the error isn't believed by others and so that you can be corrected and so not continue in error.
I am not posting these things to be "not so nice" I am posting this in an effort to edify you. This isn't an attempt to tear you down it is an attempt to lift you up.

Scooby_Snacks
Feb 17th 2014, 12:45 PM
Being a meter reader, I'm hoping no dogs are there :D

LOL! Dogs that don't bite be okay??? :rofl:

Senormac
Feb 17th 2014, 03:53 PM
If Jesus lets them in, who am I to complain ?? :)

Amos_with_goats
Feb 17th 2014, 09:46 PM
Good discussion....

... Not to change the subject, but something related that comes to mind.

When she was 8, my mother and her best friend went to the California state fair. They remember eating cotton candy, and riding the Ferris wheel.

It was likely at that same state fair where she contracted polio. She was kept in isolation, and struggled for her life for a period of time. She could not even see her parents, the curse of polio was so severe that it could not be risked....

While being cared for, she narrowly escaped needing to enter the "iron lung" where many of her playmates went and never returned. It is hard to imagine how hard this experience must have been for a scared little girl.

For some reason, there was one man appointed to be a go-between the patients and their families. He was a deacon in the church my grandparents went to.

My mother grew up with a family dog, a big black lab named Patsy. All the children loved her, and there are many stories about Patsy as part of the family lore. Mom had 2 sisters, but off all the children Patsy slept at the foot of my moms bed...

While in the isolation ward with polio, while very very sick Patsy died. Here was my mom who had lost her friends, her family and now her beloved family dog.

The deacon came to visit, and my mom... A small scared very sick child for whom death was very much a real concern asked the deacon if she would see Patsy in heaven.

She said the deacon smiled, and laughed and said "of course not, dogs don't have souls and do not go to heaven".

My mother recovered from polio. As a matter of fact she turned 72 yesterday, and went on to be the greatest mom I could ever have asked to have. To this day, other then to listen to me preach she has never darkened the door of a church of her own free will.

Not that it changes the discussion... But I thought I might share it none the less.

Blessings to all.

Bible Forums Vision: "To be a community of believers who are actively engaged in pursuing the truth of God as revealed in His Son Jesus Christ by way of studying the Scriptures diligently in order to discover this truth."

Amos_with_goats
Feb 17th 2014, 09:46 PM
Good discussion....

... Not to change the subject, but something related that comes to mind.

When she was 8, my mother and her best friend went to the California state fair. They remember eating cotton candy, and riding the Ferris wheel.

It was likely at that same state fair where she contracted polio. She was kept in isolation, and struggled for her life for a period of time. She could not even see her parents, the curse of polio was so severe that it could not be risked....

While being cared for, she narrowly escaped needing to enter the "iron lung" where many of her playmates went and never returned. It is hard to imagine how hard this experience must have been for a scared little girl.

For some reason, there was one man appointed to be a go-between the patients and their families. He was a deacon in the church my grandparents went to.

My mother grew up with a family dog, a big black lab named Patsy. All the children loved her, and there are many stories about Patsy as part of the family lore. Mom had 2 sisters, but off all the children Patsy slept at the foot of my moms bed...

While in the isolation ward with polio, while very very sick Patsy died. Here was my mom who had lost her friends, her family and now her beloved family dog.

The deacon came to visit, and my mom... A small scared very sick child for whom death was very much a real concern asked the deacon if she would see Patsy in heaven.

She said the deacon smiled, and laughed and said "of course not, dogs don't have souls and do not go to heaven".

My mother recovered from polio. As a matter of fact she turned 72 yesterday, and went on to be the greatest mom I could ever have asked to have. To this day, other then to listen to me preach she has never darkened the door of a church of her own free will.

Not that it changes the discussion... But I thought I might share it none the less.

Blessings to all.

Bible Forums Vision: "To be a community of believers who are actively engaged in pursuing the truth of God as revealed in His Son Jesus Christ by way of studying the Scriptures diligently in order to discover this truth."

ChristianCoffee
Feb 18th 2014, 04:47 PM
This episode of The Twilight Zone (The Hunt) written by Earl Hamner Jr. (He did The Waltons scripts) answers it pretty well for me:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L1BSnxH4b4