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buster
Sep 18th 2012, 03:12 AM
It seems that I have gotten a lot of mixed opinions of how one can get into Heaven after work on this Earth is finished.

Dani H
Sep 18th 2012, 03:28 AM
Buster, whose work are you doing?

Faith in Christ is about much more than going to heaven. It's about heaven coming to live with us. :)

God's legacy
Sep 18th 2012, 05:40 AM
It seems that I have gotten a lot of mixed opinions of how one can get into Heaven after work on this Earth is finished.

You can't. According to the Bible -John 3:13-"No man hath ascended up to heaven........".
Even David, the King of Israel, did not ascend into the heavens.
In Rev 5:9-10 it shows we will be reigning on earth with God, not in heaven
If the reward of the saved is eternity in heaven why isn't there anything in the Bible about what we will be doing up in heaven?
Just wondering.
GL

Adstars
Sep 18th 2012, 12:05 PM
It seems that I have gotten a lot of mixed opinions of how one can get into Heaven after work on this Earth is finished.

By believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement He provided for the forgiveness of your sins.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

markedward
Sep 18th 2012, 02:32 PM
It seems that I have gotten a lot of mixed opinions of how one can get into Heaven after work on this Earth is finished.
May I ask: Do you think heaven is the final goal? As in, do you think the end result for Christians is to 'get to heaven', and that's it?

ContractKeeper
Sep 18th 2012, 04:11 PM
Hi Buster, I am not going to interpret your question or statement in the worst possible light.
I see your statement, question or poll as you seeking Him through what you see as His servants or your fellow servants.

I did not opt to participate in your poll only because we will not find that answer in the opinion of any majority, as a matter of fact we will only be lied to and led astray by a majority until His Kingdom does fully come to us here on earth.

All of my bibles say that we enter the Kingdom of heaven if or when Jesus Christ acknowledges us in the presence of His Father, for most of us this event happens on the day of the Lord.
We all make it to heaven, the good the bad and the ugly, we all make it, but only the ones who Jesus will recognize in the presence of His Father will "enter" heaven.
"Make it" to heaven and "enter" heaven are two different things, friend.

Here is my answer:
But don't take my word for it...start by reading what Jesus acknowledged or gave special positive note or attention to when He would have discussions with us feeble men while He went about His Father's business ministering to us feeble men.
Keep looking for what He was all about while He ministered to us. (He had a theme and mode of operation)
Then search for who He initiated positive conversations and communion with, not who He had conversations or communion with but who He "initiated positive" conversations and communion with, this is important to answer your question because those people "entered" heaven even while they still walked on earth.
Then look for who He served (yes served) and who He trusted or placed trust in while He walked and taught here on earth.
Because all of those people "entered" heaven even while they still walked on earth !!! :pp
Reading and thinking upon all of those things will help you see, hear and understand His (not our) answer to your question. God bless.

John 8:32
Sep 18th 2012, 04:51 PM
You can't. According to the Bible -John 3:13-"No man hath ascended up to heaven........".
Even David, the King of Israel, did not ascend into the heavens.
In Rev 5:9-10 it shows we will be reigning on earth with God, not in heaven
If the reward of the saved is eternity in heaven why isn't there anything in the Bible about what we will be doing up in heaven?
Just wondering.
GL

Jesus was even more adamant than that...

Joh 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Now after saying this to the Jews, He said this to the apostles...

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

What He did say about our reward is this...

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Which begins to make sense of the teachings that those who are faithful will have rulership over cities...

Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
Luk 19:18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
Luk 19:19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

nzyr
Sep 23rd 2012, 02:00 AM
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:31)

mailmandan
Sep 23rd 2012, 12:12 PM
It seems that I have gotten a lot of mixed opinions of how one can get into Heaven after work on this Earth is finished.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 6:28-29, - Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

There is no mixed message in these passages of Scripture. Either we are "believing in Him" (trusting in the Savior God's finished work of redemption as the allsufficient means of our salvation) or else we are not.

Walls
Sep 24th 2012, 09:28 AM
Seems like I'm not the only one who says that heaven is not man's destiny - believer or unbeliever. There are just over 290 mentions of the word "heaven", "heavens" and "heavenlies" in the New Testament and not one of them alludes to the fact that man will end up in heaven. Added to this, God's original purpose with man in Genesis 1:26-28 has never been changed. Man is made from the earth, returns to the earth at death, is nourished from the earth and is to rule the earth and its environs of sky and sea. This makes the Poll moot.

John 8:32
Sep 24th 2012, 02:59 PM
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:31)

Might just be a little more to it that "just believe"...

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Noeb
Sep 25th 2012, 11:48 PM
Might just be a little more to it that "just believe"...

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?They did not say "just believe" there is one God -James 2. They said believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That includes the doctrine of Christ. Huge difference. James basically calls those that only claim to believe (but don't) sinners. Besides, Jesus himself said those that believe-th....continue to believe, would have eternal life. The just shall live by faith. Yep!

salesman
Sep 26th 2012, 03:06 PM
There is a big difference between being saved and "going to Heaven". The early church wrote a lot about the idea of Abraham's Bosom. Paradise for the believer separated by a gulf with the unrepentant sinner. As seen in the story of the rich man and Lazarus.
So, do you want to know how we get saved, or do you want to know how we get to heaven, because those are two very different things!

salesman
Sep 26th 2012, 03:09 PM
They did not say "just believe" there is one God -James 2. They said believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That includes the doctrine of Christ. Huge difference. James basically calls those that only claim to believe (but don't) sinners. Besides, Jesus himself said those that believe-th....continue to believe, would have eternal life. The just shall live by faith. Yep!

Actually he says they do believe. "Thou BELIEVEST that there is one God" not "say" you believe. These are actual believers in this passage.

Noeb
Sep 26th 2012, 03:32 PM
Being a monotheist doesn't make you a believer in Jesus. It does not say they believe in Jesus.

Noeb
Sep 26th 2012, 03:35 PM
Read Col 2. You walk by faith just as you received by faith. Being saved and staying saved (get to heaven) are both by faith.

Walls
Sep 26th 2012, 06:56 PM
And which one of our esteemed Brethren IN Christ will show two or three verses that say that man goes to heaven (for everything shall be established by two or three witnesses)?

Noeb
Sep 26th 2012, 08:34 PM
How do you mean? I don't want to post irrelevant scripture. What's the catch?

Noeb
Sep 26th 2012, 11:18 PM
Also, don't use the two or three witnesses thing. That has nothing to do with doctrine.
Deu 17:6,19:15
Mat 18:16
2Co 13:1
1Ti 5:19
Heb 10:28

Noeb
Sep 26th 2012, 11:22 PM
And which one of our esteemed Brethren IN Christ will show two or three verses that say that man goes to heaven?Where's Jesus? He's a man.
Where's did Enoch and Paul go?
When heaven descends to earth, are there any men in the city?

I'm seriously trying to figure out your angle. It can't be that man doesn't go to his creator, so.....?:wasup:

Walls
Sep 28th 2012, 05:45 AM
Hi Noeb

Notice that I said "man". As a student of the bible I am well aware that;

The Man (with the article) Jesus resides presently in heaven
Enoch and Elijah must presently reside in heaven
Moses must presently reside in heaven (as his body was fought for and he was on the mount of transfiguration)
Those saints who were raised on resurrection day after our Lord Jesus must reside in heaven
Paul visited heaven according to his account in 2nd Corinthians
John visited heaven according to his account in Revelation


But.....

These all got to heaven by being raptured there
Your poll indicates that man(kind - if you like) has his destiny in heaven as a result of faith in Jesus and/or the keeping of the Law


So I would like to point out that;

The man Jesus returns to earth to take up residence in Jerusalem
Enoch and Elijah appear again on earth at Jerusalem's crisis, only to be killed and resurrected. As faithful martyrs they will rule the earth with Christ after this
Moses will return with our Lord when He comes with His saints
Those saints resurrected with our Lord Jesus will return to earth when Jesus does
Paul again returned to earth after his visit
John returned to earth after his visit


So my question remains, please give me two or three verses to establish that "man" is destined for heaven by faith in Jesus and/or the keeping of the Law.

And if our Lord has required two or more witnesses to establish something, who am I to refute this - especially in matters of establishing doctrine (2nd Cor.13:1)? But let me rephrase my question. If going to heaven is the result of faith in Jesus, this momentous doctrine should surely have at least two verses in the whole bible saying so. So where are they? Is two too much to ask when the word "heaven" and its derivatives appear over 290 times in the New Testament alone?

John 8:32
Sep 28th 2012, 11:05 AM
Hi Noeb

Notice that I said "man". As a student of the bible I am well aware that;

The Man (with the article) Jesus resides presently in heaven
Enoch and Elijah must presently reside in heaven
Moses must presently reside in heaven (as his body was fought for and he was on the mount of transfiguration)
Those saints who were raised on resurrection day after our Lord Jesus must reside in heaven
Paul visited heaven according to his account in 2nd Corinthians
John visited heaven according to his account in Revelation


But.....

These all got to heaven by being raptured there
Your poll indicates that man(kind - if you like) has his destiny in heaven as a result of faith in Jesus and/or the keeping of the Law


So I would like to point out that;

The man Jesus returns to earth to take up residence in Jerusalem
Enoch and Elijah appear again on earth at Jerusalem's crisis, only to be killed and resurrected. As faithful martyrs they will rule the earth with Christ after this
Moses will return with our Lord when He comes with His saints
Those saints resurrected with our Lord Jesus will return to earth when Jesus does
Paul again returned to earth after his visit
John returned to earth after his visit


So my question remains, please give me two or three verses to establish that "man" is destined for heaven by faith in Jesus and/or the keeping of the Law.

And if our Lord has required two or more witnesses to establish something, who am I to refute this - especially in matters of establishing doctrine (2nd Cor.13:1)? But let me rephrase my question. If going to heaven is the result of faith in Jesus, this momentous doctrine should surely have at least two verses in the whole bible saying so. So where are they? Is two too much to ask when the word "heaven" and its derivatives appear over 290 times in the New Testament alone?

Why would we believe anyone ever went to Heaven?

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The only one who ever possibly saw Heaven was Paul and he, himself, did not know whether bodily or in vision...

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

In light of...

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

I tend to believe that it was in vision.

Walls
Sep 28th 2012, 11:43 AM
Why would we believe anyone ever went to Heaven?

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The only one who ever possibly saw Heaven was Paul and he, himself, did not know whether bodily or in vision...

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

In light of...

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

I tend to believe that it was in vision.

Amen John 8:32. It is noteworthy that Paul was raptured to the third heaven, Christ to the "highest heaven" (Eph.4:10), so I believe John 13:33 pointedly.

In Genesis 1:26-28 God made man for the purpose of ruling the earth, sea and sky. He never changed this eternal purpose with man. Which force in the Universe could make Him change? Shall He not prevail over all damage and chaos and in His own sovereign time have regenerated men in His image ruling the earth forever as the two last chapters of the bible indicate? Shall not the meek inherit the EARTH?

God bless

Noeb
Sep 28th 2012, 02:04 PM
"Heaven" is not a state it's a place. That place has men in it now. That place comes to earth with men in it and for righteous men to enter. That's how it is and remains as far as we know. You know the scriptures for this and there's more than to or three, but even if just one, one is enough. Two or three witness is about law, crime, character, and sin not doctrine. How do you agree and argue at the same time. Let it be yes or no.

John 8:32
Sep 28th 2012, 02:57 PM
"Heaven" is not a state it's a place. That place has men in it now. That place comes to earth with men in it and for righteous men to enter. That's how it is and remains as far as we know. You know the scriptures for this and there's more than to or three, but even if just one, one is enough. Two or three witness is about law, crime, character, and sin not doctrine. How do you agree and argue at the same time. Let it be yes or no.

I do not know the scriptures that put anyone in Heaven. I have never seen a scripture where someone says "when I get to Heaven", or "Joe Blow is in Heaven". I have seen plenty of scriptures that put people in their graves, asleep, awaiting a resurreciton when Christ returns to earth.

Noeb
Sep 28th 2012, 03:14 PM
Why are you looking for such a verse? When people say go to heaven they mean the place where God and man dwell together. That's the city that descends to earth. God comes to dwell with man on earth. So you see, you have seen the scriptures. Some have already been bodily resurrected BTW. You've seen that one too.

John 8:32
Sep 28th 2012, 03:22 PM
Why are you looking for such a verse? When people say go to heaven they mean the place where God and man dwell together. That's the city that descends to earth. God comes to dwell with man on earth. So you see, you have seen the scriptures. Some have already been bodily resurrected BTW. You've seen that one too.

None have been resurrected yet...

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When? At the last trump...

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Please note that this is future tense.

Noeb
Sep 28th 2012, 03:22 PM
Then again, if you can think Jesus told his disciples they could not ever go where he was going you missed the point entirely.

Noeb
Sep 28th 2012, 03:26 PM
Off course its future. Paul was talking to the living.

read Matt 27:52-53

Noeb
Sep 28th 2012, 03:28 PM
And don't forget after some are resurrected.... the rest of the dead lived not again until.....

John 8:32
Sep 28th 2012, 03:29 PM
Then again, if you can think Jesus told his disciples they could not ever go where he was going you missed the point entirely.

No, I think I got His point exactly...

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

I am not going to Heaven, He is coming back to the earth.

Noeb
Sep 28th 2012, 03:31 PM
He's bringing heaven with him. Where does that put you?

John 8:32
Sep 28th 2012, 04:49 PM
He's bringing heaven with him. Where does that put you?

He is not bringing Heaven with Him...

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Christ is returning to rule and reign on the earth...

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

And whose throne is that?

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

What will He and the saints do?

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

When?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

At the end of the Millenium, after the Great White Throne Judgment...

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

God the Father brings New Jerusalem down, out of Heaven to the earth.

Noeb
Sep 28th 2012, 04:56 PM
Amazing. If you two are going to say you disagree, you might want to post scripture that supports your claim instead of posting scripture that supports mine.

John 8:32
Sep 28th 2012, 05:12 PM
Amazing. If you two are going to say you disagree, you might want to post scripture that supports your claim instead of posting scripture that supports mine.

You might try posting a scripture or two yourself.

Noeb
Sep 28th 2012, 05:21 PM
Most have either been mentioned or quoted. We all know them. Why would quote them again?

you say men won't go to heaven then post scripture of men in heaven?

Walls
Sep 28th 2012, 06:17 PM
Most have either been mentioned or quoted. We all know them. Why would quote them again?

you say men won't go to heaven then post scripture of men in heaven?

Humor us please Noeb. Please post your scriptures again that say man(kind) is going to heaven for having faith in Jesus - the exact wording of the poll. I have pointed out the temporary sojourn of selected men, who having either been resurrected or raptured, who are in possession of their bodies and thus disqualified from Hades, in heaven, INCLUDING our Lord Jesus. We have shown them all returning to earth. We have shown a thousand year reign of the King of Heaven ON EARTH in Jerusalem in Palestine. We have shown the New Jerusalem, coming down from heaven TO the New Earth where they will reign FOREVER. May I ask you as a small favor, out of the 290 + renderings of the word heaven and its derivatives in the New Testament, to show two or three that confirm your poll.

If you asked me to show you verses that God abhors murder do you think I would hesitate to accommodate you? If you asked me to show you clear verses which say that sodomy was abhorrent to God do you think I would hesitate? Please do us the favor, as fellow students in the process of learning the meaning of the Poll, and show your verses to support this poll.

There is of course another course of action. That is to admit that we have cast serious doubt on the worldwide contemporary Christian doctrine that a man who believes in Jesus will go to heaven, and that you will take time off to consider this. Do you know how many times I have had to do this in my 30+ years of bible study?

God bless

Noeb
Sep 28th 2012, 06:51 PM
It's not my poll!

So you, a man, are going to the lake of fire?

A man that is at point A, and ends up at point B, he went from point A to point B.

Since you have a problem with people calling the new city heaven and asking how we get there, explain what's wrong with that, exactly.

John 8:32
Sep 28th 2012, 07:00 PM
God has never promised eternity in Heaven, rather He has promised an eternity of rehabilitating the universe...

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Why do you suppose there are trillions upon trillions of planets in the universe? And are we so foolish as to think that God will only brings sons into His Kingdom from one small planet among these? And what do you suppose we will be doing for all eternity? I can guarantee you we will not be floating around the clouds of heaven playing harps.

ContractKeeper
Sep 28th 2012, 09:08 PM
God has never promised eternity in Heaven, rather He has promised an eternity of rehabilitating the universe...

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Why do you suppose there are trillions upon trillions of planets in the universe? And are we so foolish as to think that God will only brings sons into His Kingdom from one small planet among these? And what do you suppose we will be doing for all eternity? I can guarantee you we will not be floating around the clouds of heaven playing harps.
I 'still yet' do not see how any of the bible passages that you have referred to on this entire thread have any evidence to substantiate what you have proposed and continue lifting to us for consideration.

I think most of us are more than willing to keep considering what you share, but your evidence seems to be more related to your imagination than to any bible passages that you have offered so far.

But when also not even a recollection of a single traditional church doctrine anywhere in history or the present comes to mind either that can jive with what you are proposing... then there might be a reason that nothing jives yet.

Where have you been taught these things ?

Noeb
Sep 29th 2012, 05:27 AM
Wait a minute.
-I go to prepare a place so you can be where I am [but say Jesus said they would never go there?]
-so shall we ever be with the Lord
-to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord
-souls (men) in heaven cry, how long oh Lord til you avenge our blood
-what people call heaven comes to earth and man dwells with God and goes into the city
but you two want to contradict the scriptures you posted and say man isn't in heaven and won't go there? Surely with your 30+ years (my dad (20+) can beat up your dad (30+)) on the subject you can explain what's wrong with people calling the new city heaven and asking how we get there.

What's foolish is going beyond what scripture tells us with speculation and imagination and believing it's fact and that the bible teaches it. Who believes in floating on clouds and playing harps anyway? We do know the above, and much more. Stick with that and you won't contradict Jesus' own words. Now, there's nothing wrong with speculation and imagination if ti stays there. I believe we will be very busy and working. God's not lazy, and Adam was told to work in the garden before he sinned. None of your speculation and imagination changes mans position with God and his welcome in the city though. If we cannot access the city for eternity then at some point we lose our salvation.

Walls
Sep 29th 2012, 09:53 AM
It's not my poll!

So you, a man, are going to the lake of fire?

A man that is at point A, and ends up at point B, he went from point A to point B.

Since you have a problem with people calling the new city heaven and asking how we get there, explain what's wrong with that, exactly.

Noeb

You have obviously missed the article before the word "Poll" in my answer. I specifically did not call it your poll, but "the Poll." This makes a big difference to what I wrote - and what you now say....

But let us leave that and return to the questions at hand.

John 8:32 and I contend that the revelation of the whole bible, from Genesis Chapter 1 to Revelation Chapter 22 is one of God making man to rule the earth, and His subsequent dealings with man when His plan was temporarily thwarted by Satan's deception and man's disobedience. We contend that man's ultimate destiny is linked with this earth and not heaven. The end of the bible shows a City, heavenly in nature, but made of men (Jesus Christ, the Church and Israel) set up on the New Earth as a wonderful and perfect consummation of God's prowess as revealed from His making man to rule the earth in Genesis 1:26-28 through man's redemption, to man having God's glory and ruling the earth forever in Revelation 21 and 22.

We further contend that the current Christian theological belief that man is destined for heaven is unscriptural. We do not deny that a very small percentage of all men that ever lived, have a temporary sojourn in heaven, but contend that they leave heaven and never return.

Now to your immediate answer.

If John 8:32 and I are wrong it would have been the easiest thing to hammer us with two or three verses which clearly state the contrary. But to this point you refuse.
It is a strange practice to change bible words and names. If you want to call New Jerusalem heaven, no one will stop you and all will grant your freedom to do so. But in a coherent discussion it will not be accepted. The New Jerusalem comes out of heaven to the New Earth. "The fire engine came out of the fire station and went to the fire." The fire engine IS NOT the fire station in any language, let alone the bible's language. So while I don't have a personal problem with your freedom to say what you like, it does become a problem when one is discussing a major doctrine.
So, accepting that you cannot find 2 or 3 verses containing the word "heaven" that show man is destined for this place, I rest my case.

Walls
Sep 29th 2012, 11:16 AM
Wait a minute.
-I go to prepare a place so you can be where I am [but say Jesus said they would never go there?]
-so shall we ever be with the Lord
-to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord
-souls (men) in heaven cry, how long oh Lord til you avenge our blood
-what people call heaven comes to earth and man dwells with God and goes into the city
but you two want to contradict the scriptures you posted and say man isn't in heaven and won't go there? Surely with your 30+ years (my dad (20+) can beat up your dad (30+)) on the subject you can explain what's wrong with people calling the new city heaven and asking how we get there.

What's foolish is going beyond what scripture tells us with speculation and imagination and believing it's fact and that the bible teaches it. Who believes in floating on clouds and playing harps anyway? We do know the above, and much more. Stick with that and you won't contradict Jesus' own words. Now, there's nothing wrong with speculation and imagination if ti stays there. I believe we will be very busy and working. God's not lazy, and Adam was told to work in the garden before he sinned. None of your speculation and imagination changes mans position with God and his welcome in the city though. If we cannot access the city for eternity then at some point we lose our salvation.

Though you refuse my request for a couple of verses supporting your theory I will answer your proofs.


I go to prepare a place so you can be where I am [but say Jesus said they would never go there?]
The gospel of John concerns the Father's House. From Chapter 1 and "Bethel" (v.51) to the cleansing of the Temple and to the New Temple which is Christ's Body in Chapter 2, the theme of John is to get God into men to dwell there. Chapter 14 continues this theme. The "Father's House" throughout scripture is NEVER heaven. It is the Tabernacle of the Wilderness, Solomon's Temple, Zerubbabel's Temple, The Body of Jesus, and the bodies of Christians. When Jesus predicts that He will go to prepare a place for His disciples He uses the present tense to declare were this would be. "... so that you may be where I AM!" So we must discover were He was at the time of the saying. The only explanation that scripture gives (for we may not interpret scripture privately - 2nd Pet.1:20) as to where our Lord Jesus was is in the same context in verses 10, 11 and 20, that is "in the Father" and the Father "Who dwells IN HIM!" The use of John 14 to suggest that disciples "go to heaven" is to overthrow (1) the biblical meaning of the "Father's House", (2) the immediate context of the Chapter, and (3) the context of the whole Book of John. And seeing as man was put in front of the Tree of Life with the commandment (not suggestion) to eat with one goal, that is, to have God dwelling in man, you overthrow the whole context of the bible.


-so shall we ever be with the Lord
The word "so" means "in this condition." 1st Thessalonians deals with frightened Christians who thought that because some of the saints had died they would miss the rapture. Paul explains to them that the dead in Christ would rise first, then the living saints at the time of our Lord's coming would be changed in the twinkling of an eye and would be raptured together with the resurrected ones. Further he tells them that "in this condition" of a glorified body, they would forever more be with Him (Jesus). As Jesus is at this time returning to earth to set up His Kingdom, using this as proof actually supports what John 8:32 and I have been saying all along.


-to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord
When the criminal that was crucified with Jesus, and who asked the Lord Jesus to remember him when He came into His Kingdom, died, he went to a place called Hades. So did our Lord Jesus (Matt.12:40; Eph.2:9). Up till then, the place for God's people at death was called "Abraham's Bosom." But our Lord Jesus changes the name to "Paradise." Why? Because His presence is now added to Hades. Three days later our Lord Jesus leaves Hades in resurrection, but His presence is not recorded as leaving and nor is the name of "Paradise" rescinded. As our Lord Jesus is omnipresent (He sits at the right hand of the majesty on high and He dwells within each Christian) it is to be expected by logic that all the dead of God's people, still waiting in Hades for the resurrection, enjoy Christ's presence. Paul visited the third heaven and he visited Hades under the earth. His summation after this was that he may not tell of things there but that they were "unspeakable" (2nd Cor.12:4). You must decide if things were "unspeakably" terrifying or "unspeakably" joyous in Paradise. So Paul, after having these visits during his training in the wilderness, can report that "to be absent from the body (that is, in Hades) is to be present with the Lord."

Now I know you are going to rebut me with the fact that most translations of the original say "caught UP". But the Greek words used are literally "CAUGHT AWAY." Movement is indicated but not direction in the Greek. The word "UP" is an addition to the original. The same wording is used for Philip's rapture in Acts 8:39 and there it is rendered correctly. Thus, Philip was CAUGHT AWAY. Correctly rendered, Paul was "CAUGHT AWAY (without a direction given). As the rest of the bible declares Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) to be under the earth, the logical direction of Paul's visit to Hades was down.


-souls (men) in heaven cry, how long oh Lord til you avenge our blood
The full text reads; "9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" (Rev.6:9-10). It is at once apparent that you change words in scripture again. These souls were not in heaven but "under the altar." As we are not to interpret scripture privately we must address scripture to explain the "altar". The first thing is the context. The first four seals, although opened by the One in Heaven, all have their effect on "the earth." Thus the altar must be "on the earth". Added to this, every other altar in the whole bible is on earth. And so much was it was fixed to the earth that the Law of Moses forbade even steps up to the altar (Ex.20:26). Again added to this is the context of the seals which stretches back into Chapter 5. The one Who is worthy to open the seals is the "Lamb as though it was slain". And where was the Lamb slain - on the earth of course. All the proof indicates that the "altar" is where the Lamb was slain and that it is on the earth. Thus, the souls of dead men cry out from beneath the earth for vengeance - totally in harmony with every other scripture dealing with Hades (as under the earth).


-what people call heaven comes to earth and man dwells with God and goes into the city
As mentioned above, if scripture says that New Jerusalem comes out of heaven it cannot be heaven. Heaven is one place - the throne of God, while New Jerusalem is made of Christ, the Church and Israel, and it is the City, not heaven, that comes to earth FROM heaven. Likewise, when our Lord Jesus prayed. He did not say "...thy kingdom come, thy heaven be put on earth...". He prayed "... thy kingdom come, thy WILL be done on earth (one place) as it is in heaven (another place)..."


but you two want to contradict the scriptures you posted and say man isn't in heaven and won't go there? Surely with your 30+ years (my dad (20+) can beat up your dad (30+)) on the subject you can explain what's wrong with people calling the new city heaven and asking how we get there.
I let the other readers judge who is contradicting scripture. But on the length of years of my study you have a point. I foolishly added this to show that in the process of years we change our opinions as new knowledge comes in. So did Paul (1st Cor.13:11). So I grant you your statement and stand rebuked.

Noeb
Sep 29th 2012, 03:46 PM
Noeb

You have obviously missed the article before the word "Poll" in my answer. I specifically did not call it your poll, but "the Poll."
......................................

May I ask you as a small favor, out of the 290 + renderings of the word heaven and its derivatives in the New Testament, to show two or three that confirm your poll.

Hi Noeb



These all got to heaven by being raptured there
Your poll indicates that man(kind - if you like) has his destiny in heaven as a result of faith in Jesus and/or the keeping of the Law

Noeb
Sep 29th 2012, 06:43 PM
John 8:32 and I contend that the revelation of the whole bible, from Genesis Chapter 1 to Revelation Chapter 22 is one of God making man to rule the earth, and His subsequent dealings with man when His plan was temporarily thwarted by Satan's deception and man's disobedience. We contend that man's ultimate destiny is linked with this earth and not heaven. The end of the bible shows a City, heavenly in nature, but made of men (Jesus Christ, the Church and Israel) set up on the New Earth as a wonderful and perfect consummation of God's prowess as revealed from His making man to rule the earth in Genesis 1:26-28 through man's redemption, to man having God's glory and ruling the earth forever in Revelation 21 and 22.agree



We further contend that the current Christian theological belief that man is destined for heaven is unscriptural.What men call Heaven comes to earth so it's as scriptural as scriptural gets.



Now to your immediate answer. If John 8:32 and I are wrong it would have been the easiest thing to hammer us with two or three verses which clearly state the contrary. But to this point you refuse.I paraphrased and you posted.



It is a strange practice to change bible words and names. If you want to call New Jerusalem heaven, no one will stop you and all will grant your freedom to do so. But in a coherent discussion it will not be accepted.But you have and are. I don't care to call it that. I prefer using the language of the bible as well, but recognize not everyone is as picky as I am. I'm saying that's what people mean when they say Heaven, and that's a fact. I'm defending the right to paraphrase and change some long definition in Revelation to Heaven. Yep, that's just fine, because I have enough common sense to know what they mean, and I'm not so shallow and vain as to require biblical terminology in all cases.



The New Jerusalem comes out of heaven to the New Earth. "The fire engine came out of the fire station and went to the fire." The fire engine IS NOT the fire station in any language, let alone the bible's language.What men call Heaven comes to earth. You'll just have to deal with it.



So, accepting that you cannot find 2 or 3 verses containing the word "heaven" that show man is destined for this place, I rest my case.Again, the verses have been posted and what case? All you have established is that you refuse to accept the city as heaven, have some extrabiblical beliefs, and hold some strange doctrines.

Noeb
Sep 30th 2012, 12:03 AM
First, 2Peter 1:20 is about "prophecy of scripture" not "scripture". It's like the two or three witnesses thing in the other thread. You are wrongfully using the verse and using it for the wrong reasons. I'm not here to hear you think I or anyone else has a private interpretation and only you know the scriptures. All that ever does for anyone is reveal their heart problems.
Though you refuse my request for a couple of versesBeen given.



The gospel of John concerns the Father's House. From Chapter 1 and "Bethel" (v.51) to the cleansing of the Temple and to the New Temple which is Christ's Body in Chapter 2, the theme of John is to get God into men to dwell there. Chapter 14 continues this theme. The "Father's House" throughout scripture is NEVER heaven. It is the Tabernacle of the Wilderness, Solomon's Temple, Zerubbabel's Temple, The Body of Jesus, and the bodies of Christians. When Jesus predicts that He will go to prepare a place for His disciples He uses the present tense to declare were this would be. "... so that you may be where I AM!" So we must discover were He was at the time of the saying. The only explanation that scripture gives (for we may not interpret scripture privately - 2nd Pet.1:20) as to where our Lord Jesus was is in the same context in verses 10, 11 and 20, that is "in the Father" and the Father "Who dwells IN HIM!" The use of John 14 to suggest that disciples "go to heaven" is to overthrow (1) the biblical meaning of the "Father's House", (2) the immediate context of the Chapter, and (3) the context of the whole Book of John. And seeing as man was put in front of the Tree of Life with the commandment (not suggestion) to eat with one goal, that is, to have God dwelling in man, you overthrow the whole context of the bible.Clearly it's when he comes again. Not when he said it.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.



The word "so" means "in this condition." 1st Thessalonians deals with frightened Christians who thought that because some of the saints had died they would miss the rapture. Paul explains to them that the dead in Christ would rise first, then the living saints at the time of our Lord's coming would be changed in the twinkling of an eye and would be raptured together with the resurrected ones. Further he tells them that "in this condition" of a glorified body, they would forever more be with Him (Jesus). As Jesus is at this time returning to earth to set up His Kingdom, using this as proof actually supports what John 8:32 and I have been saying all along.It doesn't say that at all.

KJV
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

ESV
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

All it says is that when Christ returns, those that are Christ's, will be with him thereafter.




When the criminal that was crucified with Jesus, and who asked the Lord Jesus to remember him when He came into His Kingdom, died, he went to a place called Hades. So did our Lord Jesus (Matt.12:40; Eph.2:9). Up till then, the place for God's people at death was called "Abraham's Bosom." But our Lord Jesus changes the name to "Paradise." Why? Because His presence is now added to Hades. Three days later our Lord Jesus leaves Hades in resurrection, but His presence is not recorded as leaving and nor is the name of "Paradise" rescinded. As our Lord Jesus is omnipresent (He sits at the right hand of the majesty on high and He dwells within each Christian) it is to be expected by logic that all the dead of God's people, still waiting in Hades for the resurrection, enjoy Christ's presence. Paul visited the third heaven and he visited Hades under the earth. His summation after this was that he may not tell of things there but that they were "unspeakable" (2nd Cor.12:4). You must decide if things were "unspeakably" terrifying or "unspeakably" joyous in Paradise. So Paul, after having these visits during his training in the wilderness, can report that "to be absent from the body (that is, in Hades) is to be present with the Lord."

Now I know you are going to rebut me with the fact that most translations of the original say "caught UP". But the Greek words used are literally "CAUGHT AWAY." Movement is indicated but not direction in the Greek. The word "UP" is an addition to the original. The same wording is used for Philip's rapture in Acts 8:39 and there it is rendered correctly. Thus, Philip was CAUGHT AWAY. Correctly rendered, Paul was "CAUGHT AWAY (without a direction given). As the rest of the bible declares Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) to be under the earth, the logical direction of Paul's visit to Hades was down.Paul was quite clear

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight; )
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.



The full text reads; "9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" (Rev.6:9-10). It is at once apparent that you change words in scripture again. These souls were not in heaven but "under the altar." As we are not to interpret scripture privately we must address scripture to explain the "altar". The first thing is the context. The first four seals, although opened by the One in Heaven, all have their effect on "the earth." Thus the altar must be "on the earth". Added to this, every other altar in the whole bible is on earth. And so much was it was fixed to the earth that the Law of Moses forbade even steps up to the altar (Ex.20:26). Again added to this is the context of the seals which stretches back into Chapter 5. The one Who is worthy to open the seals is the "Lamb as though it was slain". And where was the Lamb slain - on the earth of course. All the proof indicates that the "altar" is where the Lamb was slain and that it is on the earth. Thus, the souls of dead men cry out from beneath the earth for vengeance - totally in harmony with every other scripture dealing with Hades (as under the earth).It was in "heaven". What man or Moses made was what he saw in "heaven".



As mentioned above, if scripture says that New Jerusalem comes out of heaven it cannot be heaven. Heaven is one place - the throne of God, while New Jerusalem is made of Christ, the Church and Israel, and it is the City, not heaven, that comes to earth FROM heaven. Likewise, when our Lord Jesus prayed. He did not say "...thy kingdom come, thy heaven be put on earth...". He prayed "... thy kingdom come, thy WILL be done on earth (one place) as it is in heaven (another place)..." The space shuttle would come down from heaven. Satellites and space debris comes down from heaven. So will the city that people call heaven.

John 8:32
Oct 30th 2012, 06:55 PM
Wait a minute.
-I go to prepare a place so you can be where I am [but say Jesus said they would never go there?]

C'mon now, quote the entire verse...

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


-so shall we ever be with the Lord
-to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord

You are sure you are using this verse correctly?

1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.



-souls (men) in heaven cry, how long oh Lord til you avenge our blood

Metaphor, just as

Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Was his blood really crying from the ground?


-what people call heaven comes to earth and man dwells with God and goes into the city
but you two want to contradict the scriptures you posted and say man isn't in heaven and won't go there? Surely with your 30+ years (my dad (20+) can beat up your dad (30+)) on the subject you can explain what's wrong with people calling the new city heaven and asking how we get there.

No, what I want to do is just believe Christ...

Joh 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Heaven is not promised to the faithful, and what ever you do, don't be meek...

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

The reward of the saved is to rule on earth with Christ at His return.


What's foolish is going beyond what scripture tells us with speculation and imagination and believing it's fact and that the bible teaches it. Who believes in floating on clouds and playing harps anyway? We do know the above, and much more. Stick with that and you won't contradict Jesus' own words. Now, there's nothing wrong with speculation and imagination if ti stays there. I believe we will be very busy and working. God's not lazy, and Adam was told to work in the garden before he sinned. None of your speculation and imagination changes mans position with God and his welcome in the city though. If we cannot access the city for eternity then at some point we lose our salvation.

Lemme see, I don't want to contradict these plain statements of Christ...

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

Luk 19:19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Well now, if we go to heaven, why is it that just now when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to the earth is the tabernacle of God with men? And why is it that then is when God the Father dwells with men and He is our God and He is with us? Because we don't go there, He comes here.

Noeb
Oct 30th 2012, 11:22 PM
C'mon now, quote the entire verse...

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Doesn't change what He said and what I said.




You are sure you are using this verse correctly?

1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. Absolutely





Metaphor, just as

Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Was his blood really crying from the ground?What does this have to do with men being "in heaven"?




No, what I want to do is just believe Christ...

Joh 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Heaven is not promised to the faithful, and what ever you do, don't be meek...

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

The reward of the saved is to rule on earth with Christ at His return.Then believe! What do we do after we physically die before we rule with Christ on earth?




Lemme see, I don't want to contradict these plain statements of Christ...

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

Luk 19:19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Well now, if we go to heaven, why is it that just now when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to the earth is the tabernacle of God with men? And why is it that then is when God the Father dwells with men and He is our God and He is with us? Because we don't go there, He comes here.Where do we go? ;)

John 8:32
Oct 31st 2012, 12:51 PM
Doesn't change what He said and what I said.

Leaving a portion of the quote out does not change the meaning?

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died.

Now I left a portion out, let me put the entire quote up...

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

And those two quotes have the same meaning?





Absolutely

Hmmm Paul used it differently, because he also said...

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.



What does this have to do with men being "in heaven"?

Same thing this does...

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

It is a metaphor...

Now let's see...

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They are told to rest a while, until their fellow martyrs are killed.




Then believe! What do we do after we physically die before we rule with Christ on earth?

Sleep.

1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Throughout the Bible, death is likened to sleeping. No consciousness until the resurrection.




Where do we go? ;)

Nowhere, we stay here on the earth. Christ returns to the earth, we are here with Him and finally the New Jerusalem is brought down to earth by the Father and He actually dwells with us on the earth.

Noeb
Nov 1st 2012, 01:42 PM
Again, it does not say we would rather be absent from the body and sleep. That's not Christianity. We would rather be present in body and bring God glory than sleep. You believe in soul sleep, fine. I don't.

jesse
Nov 2nd 2012, 04:42 AM
Ok. I gotta say I respect very much the opinions of both Noeb and Walls. I hope to understand as much of either of you one day. (or both put together preferably haha)

I have been reading the current debate and it seems to boil down to this.

Walls believes we go to the New Jerusalem and then at a future point the New Jerusalem comes down to earth and there we stay forever with Christ.

Noeb believes the exact same thing but sees nothing wrong with referring to the New Jerusalem as "Heaven." Noeb sees an unclear area of time in Walls' timeline regarding where exactly people who are dead and are believers are now. (Which I am assume Walls will maintain is New Jerusalem.)

Is that seriously the debate or did I miss something?

ewq1938
Nov 2nd 2012, 04:57 AM
Sleep.

Sleeping often means being dead. However, no one is fully dead or sleeping when they die.

1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

Rise here is in the present tense meaning the dead rise now. It is not speaking of a future bodily resurrection but one that happens when death occurs in the present. Those that die rise now, not later. If you don't understand there is the resurrection of the spirit which happens right at death, and a bodily resurrection which can happen at a later time then you will not understand death.

John 8:32
Nov 2nd 2012, 01:57 PM
Sleeping often means being dead. However, no one is fully dead or sleeping when they die.

1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

Rise here is in the present tense meaning the dead rise now. It is not speaking of a future bodily resurrection but one that happens when death occurs in the present. Those that die rise now, not later. If you don't understand there is the resurrection of the spirit which happens right at death, and a bodily resurrection which can happen at a later time then you will not understand death.

Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psa 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
Psa 49:13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.
Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

ewq1938
Nov 2nd 2012, 10:00 PM
All scriptures addressing dead bodies. Not one of them addresses the spirit which returns to God.

And, no retort to the fact that "rise" is in the present tense as opposed to your belief that the dead are dead in spirit as well and are raised in the future only?

1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

Rise here is in the present tense meaning the dead rise now. It is not speaking of a future bodily resurrection but one that happens when death occurs in the present. Those that die rise now, not later. If you don't understand there is the resurrection of the spirit which happens right at death, and a bodily resurrection which can happen at a later time then you will not understand death.

If Paul believed the spirits of the dead rose in the future he would have used the future tense to denote an action not completed but the present tense denotes an action that happens in the present.

Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When a person dies, the body lays dead and knows nothing but the spirit rises at that present time, which is why Paul said it does it in the present.



Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psa 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
Psa 49:13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.
Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Noeb
Nov 3rd 2012, 01:14 AM
Ok. I gotta say I respect very much the opinions of both Noeb and Walls. I hope to understand as much of either of you one day. (or both put together preferably haha)

I have been reading the current debate and it seems to boil down to this.

Walls believes we go to the New Jerusalem and then at a future point the New Jerusalem comes down to earth and there we stay forever with Christ.

Noeb believes the exact same thing but sees nothing wrong with referring to the New Jerusalem as "Heaven." Noeb sees an unclear area of time in Walls' timeline regarding where exactly people who are dead and are believers are now. (Which I am assume Walls will maintain is New Jerusalem.)

Is that seriously the debate or did I miss something?That was pretty much it.

Bandit
Nov 3rd 2012, 09:07 PM
Has anyone noticed that 'buster' has not engaged in any way in his own thread?

Walls
Nov 4th 2012, 12:29 PM
Ok. I gotta say I respect very much the opinions of both Noeb and Walls. I hope to understand as much of either of you one day. (or both put together preferably haha)

I have been reading the current debate and it seems to boil down to this.

Walls believes we go to the New Jerusalem and then at a future point the New Jerusalem comes down to earth and there we stay forever with Christ.

Noeb believes the exact same thing but sees nothing wrong with referring to the New Jerusalem as "Heaven." Noeb sees an unclear area of time in Walls' timeline regarding where exactly people who are dead and are believers are now. (Which I am assume Walls will maintain is New Jerusalem.)

Is that seriously the debate or did I miss something?

Hoping not to resurrect a thread that seems to have died a natural death, I would like to expand on your observations. The easiest way is to give short summary with documentation but without rebutting anyone else. My contention is;

When any man dies (including the Man Jesus), his body is placed on the surface of the earth, His spirit returns to God Who gave it, and his soul goes to Hades at the heart of the earth to wait for resurrection. 1st Corinthians 15:22-26 divides the resurrection of men into three basic time capsules. (1) Christ's resurrection as the firstfruits of resurrection, (2) the resurrection of Christians and Jews when our Lord comes the second time and sets up His Millennial reign, and (3) the resurrection of the "rest of the dead" after Christ has reigned 1'000 years. This sequence is confirmed in the gospels (Christ's resurrection together with some selected Old Testament saints - Matt.27:53), in the Book of Daniel concerning "Daniel's People" - the Jews (Dan.12:1-2), in 1st Thessalonians Chapter 4 (concerning the Church) and in Revelation Chapter 20 (concerning "the rest of the dead.")

Except for those few who have (1) not seen death like Enoch and Elijah, and (2) those who have their resurrection bodies already like our Lord Jesus, no man ever goes to heaven. The Apostle Paul, as part of his 14 year training by our Lord Jesus in the wilderness before he started his ministry (2nd Cor.12:1-4; Gal.1:15 - 2:2), is allowed to see heaven, but promptly returns to earth to write about it. Even the Christians who are raptured in 1st Thessalonians Chapter 4 only go to the AIR, not heaven, as they meet the returning Jesus for judgement. The Jews and the nations are resurrected but never leave the surface of the earth.

All who are familiar with my exegesis know that I will always take the literal meaning of scripture first unless (a) it states otherwise like a parable or a type, or (b) it produces an absurdity. Now, New Jerusalem is in that category. If one attempts to apply a literal meaning to this city, absurdities quickly arise. Just a few examples are that (i) gates are also tribes of Israel, but at the same time they are pearls. (ii) The city is a cube which would measure about 2'000 kilometers (1'235 miles) in each direction including upwards to the sky. (iii) The Tree of Life (singular) is on both sides of the river - a mathematical and grammatical absurdity. These are just a few examples of why we are to revert to the explanation of the New Jerusalem by representative terms. This makes New Jerusalem easy to understand.

New Jerusalem has its counterpart three times in the bible. They are;

Our Lord's prayer
The Olive Tree of Romans Chapter 11
The Temple of Ephesians 2:11-22


(1)
Our Lord prayed in Matthew 6:10, "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." These short sentences show us much. First, God's kingdom had not come by then because our Lord Jesus prays for it to come (future). If it was already there then this prayer would be vain. Secondly, it is God's will that His kingdom come to earth. Because of this, He made man to rule it (Gen.1:26-28). Thirdly, this kingdom is defined by the sphere, or area, where God's will is done. Fourthly, it shows that God's will is not being done on the whole earth. Fifthly, God's will is done in heaven, but what He really wants is for it to be done on earth ALSO. If New Jerusalem is a picture or "sign", it fulfills the Lord's prayer completely. A city is for ruling. Jerusalem will be the ruling city of the world when the Millennium starts and Jesus will rule from there as King of Kings. New Jerusalem is also a city and it rules (Rev.22:5). As it comes from heaven, it is Heavenly and it is God's rule. And as it comes to the New Earth it is God's rule, God's kingdom on earth, thus fulfilling the Lord's prayer in minute detail.

(2)
The Olive Tree of Romans Chapter 11 must be interpreted by scripture itself otherwise massive problems arise. A Tree in parabolic terms is a king and his kingdom (Judg.9:7-15; Dan.4:19-22 etc.). Thus, the Olive Tree of Romans must be the same. The Root and Stem must be Christ (for Who else is Holy to make all holy?). The natural branches are Israel, who are initially presented with the kingdom, but who, through unbelief are removed (Matt.21:43). The Church are the wild branches and are grafted in, but could be cast out if they behave badly (Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:3-5), and then, when the King (Jesus) returns He restores Israel again, as the prophets have predicted, and the Olive Tree, the Kingdom of God is complete for the Millennial reign of Christ. New Jerusalem is just the final perfection of this Tree for all eternity.

(3)
Ephesians is a Book on the Church, but in Chapter 2 Paul also shows the Kingdom. The Kingdom is - Who will rule the earth according to the "Covenants of Promise" (verse 12; Rom.4:13), not the Covenant of Law (which was given 430 years later - Gal.3:17-18)? Initially the Covenant of Promise was given to Abraham and his seed in Genesis Chapters 12 and 15 - that is the Jews. But after the Jews rejected our Lord Jesus, this offer was extended to the nations. The way for a member of the nations to become "seed of Abraham" was to be born through Christ (the single Seed of Abraham, Who by death and resurrection, produces the many seeds - Gal.3:29; Jn.12:23-24). Ephesians 2:13 goes on to say that that those (of the nations) who were once far from these promises, are made near by the blood of Christ. Then verses 14 to 19 say how this was done - by the abolishment of the Law which separated Jew and Gentile. Then verse 20 shows that the achievement of the rule of the earth is on three foundations, Christ, the Chief Corner Stone, the Old Testament Prophets (Jews) and New Testament Apostles (those who wrote and propagated the Gospel of the Kingdom). If you compare New Jerusalem with Ephesians 2:11-22 you will immediately see that, (1) they are both made of (a) Christ, (b) Jews, and (c) believing Gentiles, (2) both for the ruling of the earth by Abraham's seed, and (3) both a Temple.

The statement above:


Walls believes we go to the New Jerusalem and then at a future point the New Jerusalem comes down to earth and there we stay forever with Christ.

... is not actually what I believe, but I can see how the author got to that conclusion. The theme of the Thread is only about a portion of the whole picture, that is, "How does one make it to heaven". My belief, when restricted to the Title of the Thread is simply, Except for a few men who possess their bodies and who were raptured like our Lord Jesus, NOBODY goes to heaven. You will notice that nobody could produce a single verses saying that they do. The reason is that there is no verse saying this. I can assure you, after over 30 years of careful searching, I have not found one. It is a heathen myth propagated by the Roman Catholic Church and was embraced by the Reformed Churches without due study. If we would all return to PURE scripture, without traditions, we would all come to the same conclusions. Man is made from the earth, for the rulership of the earth and is nourished by the earth. Even his spiritual nourishment is the TREE of LIFE, something that was in the Garden of Eden, NOT HEAVEN.

Noeb
Nov 4th 2012, 04:44 PM
When any man dies (including the Man Jesus), his body is placed on the surface of the earth, His spirit returns to God Who gave it, and his soul goes to Hades at the heart of the earth to wait for resurrection.First, how does the spirit return to God and it not be considered the individual go to God?

Second, how does the spirit go one place and the soul another? The soul is 'the result' of a spirit put in a body (Gen 2:7). How does just 'that result', apart from the spirit, go to.....well...any place, not being a thing? Your soul is not a thing. It is you.



All who are familiar with my exegesis know that I will always take the literal meaning of scripture first unless (a) it states otherwise like a parable or a type, or (b) it produces an absurdity.Great. Me too.



Now, New Jerusalem is in that category. If one attempts to apply a literal meaning to this city, absurdities quickly arise. Just a few examples are that (i) gates are also tribes of Israel, but at the same time they are pearls.It does not say that.
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

It does say they are pearls. This is about Israel.
Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

Israel is also God's treasure in Scripture
Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.


The city is a cube which would measure about 2'000 kilometers (1'235 miles) in each direction including upwards to the sky.and this is absurd, why?



The Tree of Life (singular) is on both sides of the river - a mathematical and grammatical absurdity.Seriously? You forgot 'down through the middle of the street', meaning there are many. And -conjunction- there are many on both sides of the river. Common sense. You need many to heal the nations. Absurd would be to think it is singular.



These are just a few examples of why we are to revert to the explanation of the New Jerusalem by representative terms. This makes New Jerusalem easy to understand.Actually you are making it very difficult.



You will notice that nobody could produce a single verses saying that they do.Be honest.



Even his spiritual nourishment is the TREE of LIFE, something that was in the Garden of Eden, NOT HEAVEN.The tree of life enables mortals to live forever. Scripture literally says so. Since it is in the city and the city is in "Heaven" right now, the tree of life is, where? "Heaven".

Walls
Nov 4th 2012, 07:14 PM
First, how does the spirit return to God and it not be considered the individual go to God?

Second, how does the spirit go one place and the soul another? The soul is 'the result' of a spirit put in a body (Gen 2:7). How does just 'that result', apart from the spirit, go to.....well...any place, not being a thing? Your soul is not a thing. It is you.

The Spirit
"Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" (Eccl.3:21)


"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Eccl.12:7)


"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." (Lk.23:46)

The Man, or the soul (as men are always regarded as souls - Gen.2:7, 12:5; Ex.1:5; Act.2:41 etc. etc.)
"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matt.12:40)

"(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)" (Eph.4:9-10)

The Body
"And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed." (Mt 27:60)

"And when his disciples heard of it, they came and took up his corpse, and laid it in a tomb." (Mk.6:29)

In 1st Thessalonians 5:23 the Holy Spirit says that if a man is kept "whole" he is "spirit AND soul AND body."


http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Walls http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2911238#post2911238)

Now, New Jerusalem is in that category. If one attempts to apply a literal meaning to this city, absurdities quickly arise. Just a few examples are that (i) gates are also tribes of Israel, but at the same time they are pearls.




Posted by Noeb
It does not say that.
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

It does say they are pearls. This is about Israel.
Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

Israel is also God's treasure in Scripture
Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Where in this universe of ours are people pearls? Only in allegory and parable as your proof points out! The instruction about the pearls and the treasure in Matthew 13 are "parables!" - exactly why I said they must be taken to signify things.


http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Walls http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2911238#post2911238)

The city is a cube which would measure about 2'000 kilometers (1'235 miles) in each direction including upwards to the sky.



Posted by Noeb
and this is absurd, why?

Because


2'000 X 2'000 kilometers is larger than even the Israel of the Millenium
People can't get enough oxygen at 5 kilometers, never mind 2'000
The cube in scripture is the shape of the Holy of Holies, and it is made with the same materials as the Church in 1st Corinthians Chapter 3 - precious stones. We all know that the Church is made of men in reality




Posted by Noeb
Seriously? You forgot 'down through the middle of the street', meaning there are many. And -conjunction- there are many on both sides of the river. Common sense. You need many to heal the nations. Absurd would be to think it is singular.

Actually, accuracy with God's Word transcends common sense. Common sense says that the Red Sea cannot be parted by an East Wind. Common sense says that the dead cannot rise. Common sense says that the earth cannot stop rotating. Common sense forbids many things that were, and are, achieved in scripture. Let us examine the verse together.

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations" (Rev.22:2)


There is one Tree of Life according to the grammar, but it is found on both sides of the river. Maybe you can sketch this for us and satisfy the argument.
"Her fruit..." is singular in accordance with the rules of both Greek and English grammar.
The Tree does not heal the nations, the leaves do. There are many leaves on this magnificent Tree.




Posted by Noeb
Be honest.

Humor me please. Just post them again for us to examine them.


Posted by Noeb
The tree of life enables mortals to live forever. Scripture literally says so. Since it is in the city and the city is in "Heaven" right now, the tree of life is, where? "Heaven".

Are you disputing that the Tree of Life was in the Garden of Eden, because that was my statement? Are you disputing that the Tree of Life was man's spiritual nourishment? Because that was my statement. Why do you divert the subject with a totally unrelated statement? Nobody addressed were the Tree of Life is now.

Noeb, according to the stats on the "Forum" page about 230 people are reading our posts at any one time. So, it would behoove us to be accurate.

Noeb
Nov 4th 2012, 10:18 PM
The Spirit
"Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" (Eccl.3:21)


"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Eccl.12:7)


"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." (Lk.23:46)

The Man, or the soul (as men are always regarded as souls - Gen.2:7, 12:5; Ex.1:5; Act.2:41 etc. etc.)
"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matt.12:40)

"(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)" (Eph.4:9-10)

The Body
"And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed." (Mt 27:60)

"And when his disciples heard of it, they came and took up his corpse, and laid it in a tomb." (Mk.6:29)

In 1st Thessalonians 5:23 the Holy Spirit says that if a man is kept "whole" he is "spirit AND soul AND body."How did this answer my question? Here

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Body+spirit=soul



Where in this universe of ours are people pearls? Only in allegory and parable as your proof points out! The instruction about the pearls and the treasure in Matthew 13 are "parables!" - exactly why I said they must be taken to signify things.That's what I said. Again, concerning the gates, they are literal pearl and it does not say they are the 12 tribes of Israel. You said it did, when it doesn't. I posted the verse for all to see that it doesn't. The city and it's description is literal. You will literally be able to read the names of the 12 tribes of Israel on the gates, and see they are pearl. Why is that astounding?



Because


2'000 X 2'000 kilometers is larger than even the Israel of the Millenium
People can't get enough oxygen at 5 kilometers, never mind 2'000
The cube in scripture is the shape of the Holy of Holies, and it is made with the same materials as the Church in 1st Corinthians Chapter 3 - precious stones. We all know that the Church is made of men in reality

Why does any of this effect what the city can be?




Common sense says that the Red Sea cannot be parted by an East WindIt does?


Common sense says that the dead cannot riseIt does?


Common sense says that the earth cannot stop rotatingIt does?


Common sense forbids many things that were, and are, achieved in scripture.My common sense includes what I know and what scripture says.



Let us examine the verse together.

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations" (Rev.22:2)


There is one Tree of Life according to the grammar, but it is found on both sides of the river. Maybe you can sketch this for us and satisfy the argument.
"Her fruit..." is singular in accordance with the rules of both Greek and English grammar.
The Tree does not heal the nations, the leaves do. There are many leaves on this magnificent Tree.

The grammar is that the tree of life lines the street down the middle and the river on both sides.
A type of tree has a type of fruit. Very basic point made throughout scripture.
The leaves are part of the tree.



Humor me please. Just post them again for us to examine them.Go find and read them again.



Are you disputing that the Tree of Life was man's spiritual nourishment?Of course. The only thing we are ever told is that it enabled Adam and Eve to live forever, and that it heals the nations. Mortals need that. The glorified do not.


Why do you divert the subject with a totally unrelated statement? Nobody addressed were the Tree of Life is now.It is related and you said
"Even his spiritual nourishment is the TREE of LIFE, something that was in the Garden of Eden, NOT HEAVEN."

If you can make such obvious mistakes that are easily corrected with basic reading skills and comprehension, just imagine how your theology is effected. Case in point. You say literal is the way to go unless scripture tells you otherwise, and turn around and take the most literal aspects of Revelation and and say they are spiritual. You say the tree of life is spiritual without reason. You don't even follow the method of interpretation you claim.

KittenSong
Nov 4th 2012, 11:40 PM
I thought John 3:13 (http://bible.cc/john/3-13.htm) informed us that no one has ascended into Heaven as yet.

And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Noeb
Nov 5th 2012, 12:34 AM
I thought John 3:13 (http://bible.cc/john/3-13.htm) informed us that no one has ascended into Heaven as yet.

And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.yes. Before the resurrection.

Walls
Nov 5th 2012, 07:58 AM
Originally Posted by Noeb
First, how does the spirit return to God and it not be considered the individual go to God?

Second, how does the spirit go one place and the soul another? The soul is 'the result' of a spirit put in a body (Gen 2:7). How does just 'that result', apart from the spirit, go to.....well...any place, not being a thing? Your soul is not a thing. It is you.


Answered by Walls
The Spirit
"Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" (Eccl.3:21)


"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Eccl.12:7)


"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." (Lk.23:46)

The Man, or the soul (as men are always regarded as souls - Gen.2:7, 12:5; Ex.1:5; Act.2:41 etc. etc.)
"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matt.12:40)

"(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)" (Eph.4:9-10)

The Body
"And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed." (Mt 27:60)

"And when his disciples heard of it, they came and took up his corpse, and laid it in a tomb." (Mk.6:29)

In 1st Thessalonians 5:23 the Holy Spirit says that if a man is kept "whole" he is "spirit AND soul AND body."


Answered by Noeb
How did this answer my question? Here

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Body+spirit=soul

OK. So there seems to be a contradiction because otherwise you could have convincingly answered scripture (not me, for I just quoted scripture). Those verses, to even the slowest of us, show three entities and three destinations at death, and this by multiple scriptures. So let us examine your explanation of Genesis 2:7.

"Body+spirit=soul". By this you have actually made ONE entity here. Example; engine+gearbox+differential=drivetrain. Drivetrain is one thing. But we are talking about HOW MANY THINGS MAKE UP THIS ONE THING, A MAN, because each part has a destiny at death. Scripture says;

God used dust (1 thing)
God used His breath (1 thing)
And man became a living soul (1 thing)

The word "became" denotes a process. Lot's wife "became a pillar of salt". She was a woman, she was a wife, and later she "became" also a pillar of salt. Our Lord Jesus is a Man (1 distinct thing). Our Lord Jesus is also God (1 distinct thing). After His resurrection as a Man, having added the aspect of human resurrection to His Godhead, our Lord Jesus "became" the Life-giving Spirit (1 new distinct thing that was not before - 1st Cor.15:45).

Isaiah 43:7 bundles it nicely for all to see. "Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him." "Created him" pertains to the soul because it was not, and then was. "Formed him" pertains to the body for it is formed like a potter forms clay (Rom.9:20-21). "Made him" pertains to the spirit for it is made with God's breath.

The grammar, and the mention of three different entities, shows that man is made of three parts. The main part is the soul. This is the man, as my references show. Each part has a destiny at death as shown by my verses. Other scriptures which cement this fact are;

"Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid" (1st Cor.6:15)
"And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord" (Luke 1:46). Mary's soul "magnified" the Lord.
"And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour" Luke 1:47). Mary's spirit could rejoice.


These two last verses from Luke are joined by "AND", a conjunction. That means there are two distinct things, like there are three in 1st Thessalonians 5:23 where they are all joined by an "AND." An engine AND a gearbox AND a differential make a Drivetrain. The Drivetrain is made of three parts.

So also, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt.10:28).

Your Formula should now read; "spirit+body+soul=MAN". Thus, your seeming contradiction is solved, and man is made of three parts, each having a destiny at death as the rest of scripture testifies to.

Noeb
Nov 5th 2012, 06:36 PM
You are arguing my point but have not answered my question. What you wrote is what I said and what I believe. Since the soul exists because of the spirit how can it be separated, as if it is a thing? God used two things to create another. Not another thing, but an existence dependant on one or both of the other two. Can't be the body that perishes so it must the spirit the soul remains with. Which makes perfect sense because it is the heart and mind that interact and make the character.

John 8:32
Nov 5th 2012, 08:13 PM
I thought John 3:13 (http://bible.cc/john/3-13.htm) informed us that no one has ascended into Heaven as yet.

And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


yes. Before the resurrection.

And David had not even after the resurrection of Christ...

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Neither has Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham or any of the patriarchs...

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Not until the return of Christ and the resurrection...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Noeb
Nov 5th 2012, 09:18 PM
Echo.....Matthew 27:52-53

ewq1938
Nov 5th 2012, 09:56 PM
Ascending into the heavens bodily has nothing to do with the spirit rising and returning to God. God isn't the God of the dead but the living. Everyone you named is alive in heaven.

Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Immediately the spirit returns to God at death. The dead body remains dead. This occurred for Christ:

Luk_23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

This is a resurrection of the spirit, which happened when he died bodily:

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Here is his ghost/spirit leaving his body.

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

All these events occurred after his spirit resurrected at the time of bodily death.

Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.



1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

Rise here is in the present tense meaning the dead rise now. It is not speaking of a future bodily resurrection but one that happens when death occurs in the present. Those that die rise now, not later. If you don't understand there is the resurrection of the spirit which happens right at death, and a bodily resurrection which can happen at a later time then you will not understand death.

To say someone has "died" is technically inaccurate which causes a lot of confusion. Neither Jesus, George Washington or anyone in the past **themselves** (soul and spirit) have died...what died is their human bodies. It's a confusing way we use English which implies a person themselves have died along with their body but the truth is when someone has "died" the death is not of that person themselves but of their physical body. When we read that "Jesus died on the cross" it is speaking solely of his human fleshy body. The first death is to experience the death of the body.

This is the answer to silly questions such as "How can you believe in God if God died?" or "How can he be God if he died?" etc etc.

Jesus is God and God cannot die, but JEsus died on the cross. Answer: Only the human body of Jesus died, that carnal part of him died as it does for all humans but the God part of him which is divine and always has been cannot and did not die. Those that teach "soul death" similar to "soul sleep" teach that Jesus 100 percent is dead. His soul is dead. His spirit is dead. This is impossible being that Jesus is God. Those that teach this do not believe Jesus was God.





And David had not even after the resurrection of Christ...

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Neither has Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham or any of the patriarchs...

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Not until the return of Christ and the resurrection...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Noeb
Nov 5th 2012, 10:18 PM
John 8:32,

Acts 2:29 "Brothers, I can speak confidently to you about our forefather David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day."

the point is that he died and stayed dead. Jesus did not. That's all.

jesse
Nov 6th 2012, 07:22 AM
Hoping not to resurrect a thread that seems to have died a natural death, I would like to expand on your observations. The easiest way is to give short summary with documentation but without rebutting anyone else. My contention is;

When any man dies (including the Man Jesus), his body is placed on the surface of the earth, His spirit returns to God Who gave it, and his soul goes to Hades at the heart of the earth to wait for resurrection. 1st Corinthians 15:22-26 divides the resurrection of men into three basic time capsules. (1) Christ's resurrection as the firstfruits of resurrection, (2) the resurrection of Christians and Jews when our Lord comes the second time and sets up His Millennial reign, and (3) the resurrection of the "rest of the dead" after Christ has reigned 1'000 years. This sequence is confirmed in the gospels (Christ's resurrection together with some selected Old Testament saints - Matt.27:53), in the Book of Daniel concerning "Daniel's People" - the Jews (Dan.12:1-2), in 1st Thessalonians Chapter 4 (concerning the Church) and in Revelation Chapter 20 (concerning "the rest of the dead.")

Except for those few who have (1) not seen death like Enoch and Elijah, and (2) those who have their resurrection bodies already like our Lord Jesus, no man ever goes to heaven. The Apostle Paul, as part of his 14 year training by our Lord Jesus in the wilderness before he started his ministry (2nd Cor.12:1-4; Gal.1:15 - 2:2), is allowed to see heaven, but promptly returns to earth to write about it. Even the Christians who are raptured in 1st Thessalonians Chapter 4 only go to the AIR, not heaven, as they meet the returning Jesus for judgement. The Jews and the nations are resurrected but never leave the surface of the earth.

All who are familiar with my exegesis know that I will always take the literal meaning of scripture first unless (a) it states otherwise like a parable or a type, or (b) it produces an absurdity. Now, New Jerusalem is in that category. If one attempts to apply a literal meaning to this city, absurdities quickly arise. Just a few examples are that (i) gates are also tribes of Israel, but at the same time they are pearls. (ii) The city is a cube which would measure about 2'000 kilometers (1'235 miles) in each direction including upwards to the sky. (iii) The Tree of Life (singular) is on both sides of the river - a mathematical and grammatical absurdity. These are just a few examples of why we are to revert to the explanation of the New Jerusalem by representative terms. This makes New Jerusalem easy to understand.

New Jerusalem has its counterpart three times in the bible. They are;

Our Lord's prayer
The Olive Tree of Romans Chapter 11
The Temple of Ephesians 2:11-22


(1)
Our Lord prayed in Matthew 6:10, "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." These short sentences show us much. First, God's kingdom had not come by then because our Lord Jesus prays for it to come (future). If it was already there then this prayer would be vain. Secondly, it is God's will that His kingdom come to earth. Because of this, He made man to rule it (Gen.1:26-28). Thirdly, this kingdom is defined by the sphere, or area, where God's will is done. Fourthly, it shows that God's will is not being done on the whole earth. Fifthly, God's will is done in heaven, but what He really wants is for it to be done on earth ALSO. If New Jerusalem is a picture or "sign", it fulfills the Lord's prayer completely. A city is for ruling. Jerusalem will be the ruling city of the world when the Millennium starts and Jesus will rule from there as King of Kings. New Jerusalem is also a city and it rules (Rev.22:5). As it comes from heaven, it is Heavenly and it is God's rule. And as it comes to the New Earth it is God's rule, God's kingdom on earth, thus fulfilling the Lord's prayer in minute detail.

(2)
The Olive Tree of Romans Chapter 11 must be interpreted by scripture itself otherwise massive problems arise. A Tree in parabolic terms is a king and his kingdom (Judg.9:7-15; Dan.4:19-22 etc.). Thus, the Olive Tree of Romans must be the same. The Root and Stem must be Christ (for Who else is Holy to make all holy?). The natural branches are Israel, who are initially presented with the kingdom, but who, through unbelief are removed (Matt.21:43). The Church are the wild branches and are grafted in, but could be cast out if they behave badly (Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:3-5), and then, when the King (Jesus) returns He restores Israel again, as the prophets have predicted, and the Olive Tree, the Kingdom of God is complete for the Millennial reign of Christ. New Jerusalem is just the final perfection of this Tree for all eternity.

(3)
Ephesians is a Book on the Church, but in Chapter 2 Paul also shows the Kingdom. The Kingdom is - Who will rule the earth according to the "Covenants of Promise" (verse 12; Rom.4:13), not the Covenant of Law (which was given 430 years later - Gal.3:17-18)? Initially the Covenant of Promise was given to Abraham and his seed in Genesis Chapters 12 and 15 - that is the Jews. But after the Jews rejected our Lord Jesus, this offer was extended to the nations. The way for a member of the nations to become "seed of Abraham" was to be born through Christ (the single Seed of Abraham, Who by death and resurrection, produces the many seeds - Gal.3:29; Jn.12:23-24). Ephesians 2:13 goes on to say that that those (of the nations) who were once far from these promises, are made near by the blood of Christ. Then verses 14 to 19 say how this was done - by the abolishment of the Law which separated Jew and Gentile. Then verse 20 shows that the achievement of the rule of the earth is on three foundations, Christ, the Chief Corner Stone, the Old Testament Prophets (Jews) and New Testament Apostles (those who wrote and propagated the Gospel of the Kingdom). If you compare New Jerusalem with Ephesians 2:11-22 you will immediately see that, (1) they are both made of (a) Christ, (b) Jews, and (c) believing Gentiles, (2) both for the ruling of the earth by Abraham's seed, and (3) both a Temple.

The statement above:



... is not actually what I believe, but I can see how the author got to that conclusion. The theme of the Thread is only about a portion of the whole picture, that is, "How does one make it to heaven". My belief, when restricted to the Title of the Thread is simply, Except for a few men who possess their bodies and who were raptured like our Lord Jesus, NOBODY goes to heaven. You will notice that nobody could produce a single verses saying that they do. The reason is that there is no verse saying this. I can assure you, after over 30 years of careful searching, I have not found one. It is a heathen myth propagated by the Roman Catholic Church and was embraced by the Reformed Churches without due study. If we would all return to PURE scripture, without traditions, we would all come to the same conclusions. Man is made from the earth, for the rulership of the earth and is nourished by the earth. Even his spiritual nourishment is the TREE of LIFE, something that was in the Garden of Eden, NOT HEAVEN.

Hmm.... That is a lot to take in. Thank you for explaining you position! I have wondered about many of these things. At the very least it nice to hear someone say aloud things that I have noticed and wondered about and then take them several steps further on the road to making sense. Not that I am brushing Noeb's concerns aside by any means.

Walls
Nov 6th 2012, 08:49 AM
Hmm.... That is a lot to take in. Thank you for explaining you position! I have wondered about many of these things. At the very least it nice to hear someone say aloud things that I have noticed and wondered about and then take them several steps further on the road to making sense. Not that I am brushing Noeb's concerns aside by any means.

Fair evaluation. The short summaries on New Jerusalem were in answer to a previous view. As New Jerusalem is the ultimate consummation of the Garden of Eden, three short paragraphs is rather a pitiful contribution to this Grand Consummation of God's eternal purpose with the earth and men. What was intended here was to show the difference between the Church and the Kingdom. While the Church embraces the believers of all nations only, the Kingdom of God embraces the Church, Israel and those of the nations not in the Lake of Fire. Even the Lake of Fire (which is on the earth and in full view of all men - Isa.66;22-24) can be stated as part of God's Kingdom, for He ordained it (Matt.25:41), manages it (Matt.10:28) and set it up as an eternal monument to His unwavering justice and righteousness.

In the Garden of Eden there were eight things

God
The Tree of Life
Man
Woman
Rivers
Gold
Bdellium (a pearl from the sap of a tree)
Precious Stones


In New Jerusalem there are eight things

God
The Tree of Life
The Man Jesus
The Bride
The River of Life
Gold
Pearl (a pearl from an injury to animal life)
Precious Stones


The Bridge to these is the Church. In 1st Corinthians Chapter 3 the Church is built with

God (Who inhabits the Temple of it)
Christ (the Foundation)
The Lamb (which is for sins and for eating)
Men
Gold
Silver
Precious Stones
Wood



Bdellium - A Pearl from a Tree because sin had not yet entered.
Pearl because Christ's righteousness is displayed in Him being a Man and a Man injured for others' atonement. From this time onwards man must eat the Lamb (Exodus Chapter 12, John Chapter 6), not the Fruit of the Tree of Life, until New Jerusalem (for blood must be shed while sin exists).
Silver replaces Pearl in the Church because atonement must be made and our Lord was sold for 30 pieces (the price of a woman not a man, for Christ dies for the Church, not Himself). Israel rejects this atonement so it does not apply to them although it features prominently in the construction of the Tabernacle. Silver is missing from New Jerusalem because by the time of the New Earth, all sin is put away (Rev.21:4 - "no death" means no sin, for death is the wages of sin).
Wood symbolizes humanity for man is often a Tree in scripture (Judg.9:8-16; Dan.4:20-22; Mk.8:24 etc.), and our Lord a Carpenter. Wood featured heavily in the Tabernacle and Solomon's Temple. The Church needs men, but they must be transformed into precious stones (1st Pet.2:5)
Hay and stubble are wood products but without transformation they are useless for building and good for burning only.


This is all beautiful symbology, explained by other scriptures (but sadly too expansive for this posting). That is why I maintain that while we make every attempt to take the Bible literally, in the case of New Jerusalem the symbology is overwhelming. And for the sake of this Thread it is to be noted that while New Jerusalem is heavenly in origin and nature, it is on the earth for all eternity.

John 8:32
Nov 6th 2012, 12:46 PM
Ascending into the heavens bodily has nothing to do with the spirit rising and returning to God. God isn't the God of the dead but the living. Everyone you named is alive in heaven.

And yet, David is not yet ascended into the heavens. The verse does not say his rotting corpse has not ascended into heaven, it says that he, everything that made David who he was is not ascended into heaven. Yet. He will be made alive at the resureection at Christ's return...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Right now, everyone who has died is unconscious, asleep, just as the Word says...

Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

So the dead do not remember God? Just why aren't the dead giving thanks or praising God? Explain this to me.

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

His thoughts perish? He is no longer thinking?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The dead know not anything?

Now, the only explanation anyone who believes in the immortality of the soul has is that the body is reunited with the soul at this time. This is what scripture says...

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We do not know what we shall be like (notice the timing? when He appears, at His coming).We definitely will not have the old body...

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Hmmm, says that when the dead are raised up it is not a reuniting of that body with a soul, it plainly says it is not the same body. God gives us a body, a new spirit body.


Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Immediately the spirit returns to God at death. The dead body remains dead. This occurred for Christ:

Luk_23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

This is a resurrection of the spirit, which happened when he died bodily:

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Here is his ghost/spirit leaving his body.

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Hmmm, so God jerked these saints out of heaven, stuck them back into a body that had died from perhaps cancer, tuberculosis or maybe even leprosy and made them spend more years in this old disease ridden body? That is a dirty trick, now theyhave the opportunity to lose their salvation, unless you believe in OSAS which is heretical.


Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

All these events occurred after his spirit resurrected at the time of bodily death.

And yet Christ who is the captain of our salvation...

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The author of our salvation did not leave his body behind. Why? Because when He was raised from the dead (72 hours later, just as He said) it was truly a resurrection from the dead...

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.



Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.



1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

Rise here is in the present tense meaning the dead rise now. It is not speaking of a future bodily resurrection but one that happens when death occurs in the present. Those that die rise now, not later. If you don't understand there is the resurrection of the spirit which happens right at death, and a bodily resurrection which can happen at a later time then you will not understand death.

And yet for all your words, Paul says...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

When? AT HIS COMING!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



To say someone has "died" is technically inaccurate which causes a lot of confusion. Neither Jesus, George Washington or anyone in the past **themselves** (soul and spirit) have died...what died is their human bodies. It's a confusing way we use English which implies a person themselves have died along with their body but the truth is when someone has "died" the death is not of that person themselves but of their physical body. When we read that "Jesus died on the cross" it is speaking solely of his human fleshy body. The first death is to experience the death of the body.

You know, that sounds remarkably like something someone else once said...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:



This is the answer to silly questions such as "How can you believe in God if God died?" or "How can he be God if he died?" etc etc.

Jesus is God and God cannot die, but JEsus died on the cross. Answer: Only the human body of Jesus died, that carnal part of him died as it does for all humans but the God part of him which is divine and always has been cannot and did not die. Those that teach "soul death" similar to "soul sleep" teach that Jesus 100 percent is dead. His soul is dead. His spirit is dead. This is impossible being that Jesus is God. Those that teach this do not believe Jesus was God.

No, Jesus Christ actually died. He paid the price for sin (Rom 6:23) for all of mankind who has lived, is alive now or ever will live. Christ was willing to lay down His life for the creation He loved so that they may share in His Kingdom with Him forever. He did die...

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

He did not say that He laid down the wrapper, like taking the wrapper off of a candy bar, He laid down His LIFE.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Christ said He would lay down His LIFE, not just the wrapper, but His actual life. He died for the ungodly, you, me an devery other human who ever lived or will live. This is what real love is...

Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

ewq1938
Nov 6th 2012, 10:42 PM
And yet, David is not yet ascended into the heavens. The verse does not say his rotting corpse has not ascended into heaven, it says that he, everything that made David who he was is not ascended into heaven.

And yet, we must take all scriptures and understand what is happening here. What Christ did was bodily ascend into heaven by his own power. No man has done this before.



1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Right now, everyone who has died is unconscious, asleep, just as the Word says...

It doesn't say that there. What it does say is "every man in his own order". Keep in mind a resurrection of the spirit is completely different from the resurrection of the body.



Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

So the dead do not remember God? Just why aren't the dead giving thanks or praising God? Explain this to me.

This is from man's point of view addressing the bodies of the dead.



Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

His thoughts perish? He is no longer thinking?

Dead bodies have minds that are dead and have no thoughts.



Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The dead know not anything?

Bodies.



Now, the only explanation anyone who believes in the immortality of the soul has is that the body is reunited with the soul at this time. This is what scripture says...

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We do not know what we shall be like (notice the timing? when He appears, at His coming).We definitely will not have the old body...

It will be transformed.




1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Hmmm, says that when the dead are raised up it is not a reuniting of that body with a soul, it plainly says it is not the same body. God gives us a body, a new spirit body.

This occurs at death. Some dead bodies have been raised and changed as in the case of Christ, others who die like Moses are in their new body now, while his dead human body lay in an unknown grave. "But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him " and thirdly of course are those who are still alive when Christ come and do not die, but their human bodies are changed.








Hmmm, so God jerked these saints out of heaven, stuck them back into a body that had died from perhaps cancer, tuberculosis or maybe even leprosy and made them spend more years in this old disease ridden body? That is a dirty trick, now theyhave the opportunity to lose their salvation, unless you believe in OSAS which is heretical.

Using crude language doesn't help. God raised dead bodies back to life. There is no "jerking" or "sticking" them as if it's some horribly rough process like you describe.




And yet Christ who is the captain of our salvation...

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The author of our salvation did not leave his body behind. Why? Because when He was raised from the dead (72 hours later, just as He said) it was truly a resurrection from the dead...

What does this have to do with the first of Christ's resurrections, the one on the day he died? You keep posting scriptures as if any of them will contradict the scriptures I posted proving the dead are raised in the present tense with Christ as an example when he died. Are you a Jehovah's witness? They believe in the same things you do on this subject.






And yet for all your words, Paul says...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

When? AT HIS COMING!

That's a different event. Tell us all why this verse is in the present tense, saying the dead rise right away?

1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

It doesn't say, "For if the dead will eventually rise" using a future tense, but it uses a present tense. If the dead do not presently rise, then Christ didn't.





You know, that sounds remarkably like something someone else once said...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

You know, that is directly out of the JW handbook, the most classic canned response. It's contextually abusive and is a last ditch insult and accusation and I'll explain why it's wrong.


Many claim that if you believe the soul/spirit lives on when the human body dies and can only die if God destroys them in eternal fire that this amounts to believing satan's lie he told to Eve, "you will not surely die".

This is false.

Firstly, those that do believe the soul and spirit do not die when the human body dies do believe in death and that the body dies and is dead.

Secondly, they do believe that the soul and spirit can die at a later time if God judges this to occur. The ultimate punishment for sin is death of the soul but this DOES NOT OCCUR when the human body dies. The soul can only be killed by God, Mat 10:28. And that only happens on the day of judgment when the wicked are cast into the lake of fire, and death of the soul occurs FOR THE FIRST TIME.

Thirdly, they also know satan lied to Eve because she did die.

Claiming someone then believes in satan's lie is not true on any basis. It's a bait and switch tactic designed to blur two different issues using a strawman argument insinuating agreement with satan. Use of this type of tactic is petty and shows desperation and poor biblical scholarship.

There are two schools of thought on death:

One side believes that when a human dies, the body, soul and spirit also die while the other side believe when the human body dies the soul and spirit does not.

Scripture is quite clear that when human death occurs, the soul is not dead:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


"fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul"

There is no need to fear someone which might kill/murder you! Why? Because all they can kill is the body. They cannot kill the soul! The soul simply cannot die by the same means the body can die. Since these bad people can kill a body but cannot kill a soul means the soul is obviously still alive.

It also makes clear who is able to kill a soul, and that would be God and that destruction of a soul can only occur in "hell" known as the lake of fire.

The whole "You believe in satan's lie." is falsely accused, and badly misapplied. If you have ever been accused of believing this lie simply because you accept what God says about death and what actually happens you are free to copy and use these words as your own.






No, Jesus Christ actually died. He paid the price for sin (Rom 6:23) for all of mankind who has lived, is alive now or ever will live. Christ was willing to lay down His life for the creation He loved so that they may share in His Kingdom with Him forever. He did die...

Only his human body died. Jesus is God, and God cannot fully die. God in a human body can experience the death of the body but nothing else of Him dies.






Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

He did not say that He laid down the wrapper, like taking the wrapper off of a candy bar, He laid down His LIFE.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Only his body died, nothing else died.

He laid down the life of his body. We humans say we lose our life when we die but it's a figure of speech meaning the life of the body.

-SEEKING-
Nov 6th 2012, 11:19 PM
Rubbish, I have been in Heaven and it is beautiful,

Do tell..............

amazzin
Nov 6th 2012, 11:51 PM
Just keep going! There is is no admission fee!

You are correct but faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior is required

-SEEKING-
Nov 7th 2012, 12:04 AM
You are correct but faith in Kesus as Lord and Savioyr is required

SPELL CHECK! Aisle 3.

ewq1938
Nov 7th 2012, 12:46 AM
Anyone that wants to go to Heaven needs to understand that there is is no Hell!


Yes there is a Hell. This would be something I'd expect the Adversary to say.

jesse
Nov 7th 2012, 04:47 AM
Fair evaluation. The short summaries on New Jerusalem were in answer to a previous view. As New Jerusalem is the ultimate consummation of the Garden of Eden, three short paragraphs is rather a pitiful contribution to this Grand Consummation of God's eternal purpose with the earth and men. What was intended here was to show the difference between the Church and the Kingdom. While the Church embraces the believers of all nations only, the Kingdom of God embraces the Church, Israel and those of the nations not in the Lake of Fire. Even the Lake of Fire (which is on the earth and in full view of all men - Isa.66;22-24) can be stated as part of God's Kingdom, for He ordained it (Matt.25:41), manages it (Matt.10:28) and set it up as an eternal monument to His unwavering justice and righteousness.

In the Garden of Eden there were eight things

God
The Tree of Life
Man
Woman
Rivers
Gold
Bdellium (a pearl from the sap of a tree)
Precious Stones


In New Jerusalem there are eight things

God
The Tree of Life
The Man Jesus
The Bride
The River of Life
Gold
Pearl (a pearl from an injury to animal life)
Precious Stones


The Bridge to these is the Church. In 1st Corinthians Chapter 3 the Church is built with

God (Who inhabits the Temple of it)
Christ (the Foundation)
The Lamb (which is for sins and for eating)
Men
Gold
Silver
Precious Stones
Wood



Bdellium - A Pearl from a Tree because sin had not yet entered.
Pearl because Christ's righteousness is displayed in Him being a Man and a Man injured for others' atonement. From this time onwards man must eat the Lamb (Exodus Chapter 12, John Chapter 6), not the Fruit of the Tree of Life, until New Jerusalem (for blood must be shed while sin exists).
Silver replaces Pearl in the Church because atonement must be made and our Lord was sold for 30 pieces (the price of a woman not a man, for Christ dies for the Church, not Himself). Israel rejects this atonement so it does not apply to them although it features prominently in the construction of the Tabernacle. Silver is missing from New Jerusalem because by the time of the New Earth, all sin is put away (Rev.21:4 - "no death" means no sin, for death is the wages of sin).
Wood symbolizes humanity for man is often a Tree in scripture (Judg.9:8-16; Dan.4:20-22; Mk.8:24 etc.), and our Lord a Carpenter. Wood featured heavily in the Tabernacle and Solomon's Temple. The Church needs men, but they must be transformed into precious stones (1st Pet.2:5)
Hay and stubble are wood products but without transformation they are useless for building and good for burning only.


This is all beautiful symbology, explained by other scriptures (but sadly too expansive for this posting). That is why I maintain that while we make every attempt to take the Bible literally, in the case of New Jerusalem the symbology is overwhelming. And for the sake of this Thread it is to be noted that while New Jerusalem is heavenly in origin and nature, it is on the earth for all eternity.

Please click on the "settings" panel at the very top right hand of the page I have sent you a friend request. :)

Noeb
Nov 7th 2012, 05:43 AM
And yet, David is not yet ascended into the heavens. The verse does not say his rotting corpse has not ascended into heaven, it says that he, everything that made David who he was is not ascended into heaven.Again, where does it say that?

Act 2:29 "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

Mat 27:52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
Mat 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

jesse
Nov 7th 2012, 05:50 AM
Again, where does it say that?

Act 2:29 "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

Mat 27:52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
Mat 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

So is the "holy city" Jerusalem or New Jerusalem? (A question for all I suppose. just wondering.) I always assumed it was Jerusalem.

Walls
Nov 7th 2012, 05:58 AM
Please click on the "settings" panel at the very top right hand of the page I have sent you a friend request. :)

Hi Jesse,
Thanks for pointing that out. I guess us "Old Generation" don't know all the ins and outs of modern Forums, so I've missed the requests up until now.

And Hi to All who made friend requests.

But also to my adversaries, Hello too. I hold you all in affectionate esteem as brothers and sisters in the Lord.

jesse
Nov 7th 2012, 06:24 AM
Hi Jesse,
Thanks for pointing that out. I guess us "Old Generation" don't know all the ins and outs of modern Forums, so I've missed the requests up until now.

And Hi to All who made friend requests.

But also to my adversaries, Hello too. I hold you all in affectionate esteem as brothers and sisters in the Lord.

I figured as much. Ha ha.


I have a question. You said in the earlier post you believe all souls go to Hades.

What do you think about Abraham's bosom? Is it just a parable or a reality? What about paradise where or when is that?

I guess i am partly asking if Hades has a fixed gulf or what goes on there. And in relation to Paradise is that a place that Jesus is now?

EDIT* Interesting that the word "paradise" means a park or a garden considering what you have been saying.

Walls
Nov 7th 2012, 09:16 AM
I figured as much. Ha ha.


I have a question. You said in the earlier post you believe all souls go to Hades.

What do you think about Abraham's bosom? Is it just a parable or a reality? What about paradise where or when is that?

I guess i am partly asking if Hades has a fixed gulf or what goes on there. And in relation to Paradise is that a place that Jesus is now?

EDIT* Interesting that the word "paradise" means a park or a garden considering what you have been saying.

My posting #43 gives some detail, but here's a summary.

Man is made of three parts, spirit, soul and body (Gen.2:7; 1st Thess.5:23 etc.). At death these three parts are sundered or torn apart. The spirit returns to God who gave it, the body is placed on the earth (or a few feet below it) to return to the elements, and the soul goes to Hades. Even our Lord followed this procedure. He commended His spirit to the Father, His body was placed in a Tomb on the surface of the earth and He, Jesus, the Man, descended to the heart of the earth where he met the criminal a few hours later as promised. The information on Hades is scant as God has put a natural block on communications with the dead. Necromancing was subject to the death penalty under the Law of Moses, and Paul said that it was unlawful to speak of Paradise after her returned from it in 2nd Corinthians 12.

What we can state definitively is that;

There is no scripture that shows any other place for the dead other than Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek)
There is not one scripture that says men go to heaven when they die
Man is naked when he is dead, having put off his tent (2nd Cor.5:1-11)
Nakedness in scripture is a shame and we "groan to be clothed" after death because it is not good to be naked (2nd Cor.5:2-4)
Man cannot appear before God unclothed (God immediately makes clothes for naked Adam, even though he had fig leaves on. Even the wrong garment gets one cast out from the presence of God into outer darkness, never mind nakedness (Matt.22:11-14)
According to scripture anything dead, especially a dead man, is "unclean". No unclean thing can appear before God. It would trash His holiness and defile Him
All the people who were resurrected "rose" denoting upward motion (including our Lord Jesus Who has preeminence in all things. That is, if any man does otherwise, that man will have preeminence over Christ, having done something that Christ did not do)


But the information we can glean from Luke 16 is this.

Because our Lord cited real people by name, the narrative must be true, otherwise our Lord is accused of lying. Abraham is real and Lazarus must be in the same category as Abraham being named by name. If you told a story about me that didn't really happen, you would be a liar, and visa versa. All the parables read "a certain man" without giving a name.
There are two parts to Hades
They are separated by an impassable gulf, but the occupants can see each other and communicate across it
Up until our Lord died the part of bliss and comfort is called "Abraham's Bosom"
After our Lord died it is renamed by our Lord to "Paradise"
Heaven is never once called Paradise in the whole bible
It is "Paradise" because physical suffering is over and one is present with the Lord
The other side of Hades is not called anything but does not change in nature anywhere in scripture. So what it shows in Luke 16 is still valid today
The souls of dead men can be comforted, be happy, be sad, calculate, think, feel psychological pain, speak, see, hope and request things.
It would seem, based on the rich man's fate, that one goes to the "bad" side of Hades based on works


The only way out of Hades is resurrection. As our Lord has been resurrected, He is somewhere else. Scripture tells us that after He descended He ascended above the highest heaven to the right hand of the Majesty on high (Eph.4:10; Heb.7:26, 8:1). Since David's grave was still in Jerusalem by Acts.2:34, it is obvious that he, (1) is still in Hades, (2) that he was not one of those resurrected shortly after Christ on resurrection day (Matt.27:53). Thus, we must assume that any man who has been resurrected must be found bodily somewhere. I assume it is the third heaven that Paul visited, but cannot prove it. Suffice to say that we don't observe them on earth today, and they cannot be in Hades.

The doctrine of "going to heaven when one dies" is a Pagan belief that comes from ancient Babylon. Because they worshiped the stars they believed the good men go to a celestial lodge when they die and bad men go to a place of burning under the earth. When Constantine married Church and State in 313 AD, he adopted most of the pagan beliefs and gave them Christian names. There is not a single bit of evidence in the bible to support this Roman tradition. It might be comforting for the unlearned at the graveside, but it has no foundation in scripture.

Hope this helps.

Noeb
Nov 7th 2012, 03:15 PM
Jesse, Jerusalem. New Jerusalem is future.

John 8:32
Nov 7th 2012, 05:54 PM
Again, where does it say that?

Act 2:29 "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

Mat 27:52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
Mat 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Oh yes and...

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Waldorph
Nov 7th 2012, 08:17 PM
Faith In Jesus, Pray to god, belive in god, confess to god, Follow 10 rules, have manners :) Well remember: If you deny me before men, I will also deny you before my father.

blooper961
Nov 7th 2012, 08:33 PM
Believe in Jesus,trust Jesus,obey his words and the new testament teachings concerning salvation.Do not be led down a path to destruction by the commandments of men or the traditions of men.

ewq1938
Nov 8th 2012, 12:56 AM
You cannot hold it, as it holds the weight of every soul in the universe.
You cannot close it, because the word of God was written for everyone. His word and his guidance shines out from every page in book.

You forgot to add, you cannot pet it because it has no soft fur. You cannot eat it because it is made of book. You cannot open it because it was already opened by the last person who touched it. You cannot borrow it because the last time someone got greasy fingerprints all over it.

jesse
Nov 8th 2012, 02:56 AM
Jesse, Jerusalem. New Jerusalem is future.

So is it unanimous that the New Jerusalem is future then? I was under the impression that some saw it as current but elsewhere and in the future it would be here.

I am somewhat at a disadvantage because the site I use to look of bible phrases does not return all the occurrences but gives only some.

But if you look the term "holy city" in Revelation refers to New Jerusalem. Then you have occurrences in Matthew where Satan take the Lord to the highest point on the temple in the Holy City (which makes a lot more sense you could view the nations from heaven and not earthly Jerusalem) In Nehemiah the word for holy city properly means "your holy city" and in Daniel it is also call "your holy city." It is generally God talking (or so it seems) saying "your holy city" which I would assume is earthly Jerusalem.

So in short I am asking or postulating that "your holy city" is Jerusalem. "holy city" is New Jerusalem.

If this is all true then wouldn't that mean that the men who came out of their graves entered the "holy city" of New Jerusalem? I don't know. Which makes sense sort of given that paradise is a garden. And the New Jerusalem is very "garden of eden" like in nature. And there was a resurrection so those guys went somewhere. But it doesn't make sense in that what people would they have appeared to in New Jerusalem? So I could see this all being a wild tangent.

jesse
Nov 8th 2012, 03:11 AM
Man is made of three parts, spirit, soul and body (Gen.2:7; 1st Thess.5:23 etc.). At death these three parts are sundered or torn apart. The spirit returns to God who gave it, the body is placed on the earth (or a few feet below it) to return to the elements, and the soul goes to Hades. Even our Lord followed this procedure. He commended His spirit to the Father, His body was placed in a Tomb on the surface of the earth and He, Jesus, the Man, descended to the heart of the earth where he met the criminal a few hours later as promised.


The only way out of Hades is resurrection. As our Lord has been resurrected, He is somewhere else. Scripture tells us that after He descended He ascended above the highest heaven to the right hand of the Majesty on high (Eph.4:10; Heb.7:26, 8:1). Since David's grave was still in Jerusalem by Acts.2:34, it is obvious that he, (1) is still in Hades, (2) that he was not one of those resurrected shortly after Christ on resurrection day (Matt.27:53). Thus, we must assume that any man who has been resurrected must be found bodily somewhere. I assume it is the third heaven that Paul visited, but cannot prove it. Suffice to say that we don't observe them on earth today, and they cannot be in Hades.


Ok I think I follow what you are saying. However something is going on here I don't get.

You say the Spirit or "breath" (i assume it is the same) returns to God. The body rots. The soul goes down.

Now Jesus to me would be a particular case because he is resurrected in his fleshly body. He comes out of the grave his body doesn't rot etc. He is perfect so that seems justifiable to me.

However some of the dead probably have nothing left to resurrect as far as a body goes they are fully rotten. So the resurrection would be of soul only would it not? And are we not also said to be given a new body? That is kind of the point of 1 Corinthians 15:41 no?

There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 1 Corinthians 15:41


(as far as people walking around in their bodies in the "holy city" look at my response to Noeb and judge it.) Although what I wrote to him is just a thought and probably not accurate. But it doesn't say about those who came out of the tombs if they had their earthly bodies or not. Just that they were resurrected in some fashion and appeared to many people.

ewq1938
Nov 8th 2012, 03:14 AM
The soul and spirit are conjoined. One does not separate from the other.




Ok I think I follow what you are saying. However something is going on here I don't get.

You say the Spirit or "breath" (i assume it is the same) returns to God. The body rots. The soul goes down.

Now Jesus to me would be a particular case because he is resurrected in his fleshly body. He comes out of the grave his body doesn't rot etc. He is perfect so that seems justifiable to me. However some of the dead probably have nothing left to resurrect as far as a body goes they are fully rotten. So the resurrection would be of soul only would it not? And are we not also said to be given a new body? That is kind of the point of 1 Corinthians 15:41 no?

There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 1 Corinthians 15:41

jesse
Nov 8th 2012, 04:07 AM
The soul and spirit are conjoined. One does not separate from the other.

So you believe that Christ commended his spirit to God... and therefore did not go to hades. But in fact went up to heaven. And then came back down and was raised from the dead and then went back up? For some reason I just don't see that.

ewq1938
Nov 8th 2012, 04:10 AM
So you believe that Christ commended his spirit to God... and therefore did not go to hades. But in fact went up to heaven. And then came back down and was raised from the dead and then went back up? For some reason I just don't see that.

He went to his Father and also to hades, three days later he was bodily resurrected, was upon the earth for awhile then ascended bodily to heaven. No reason not to "see" these things.

jesse
Nov 8th 2012, 04:19 AM
He went to his Father and also to hades, three days later he was bodily resurrected, was upon the earth for awhile then ascended bodily to heaven. No reason not to "see" these things.

By "see" i mean "see where it says that."

I guess we would have to define what a "resurrection" is exactly. Is it the body rising? Or the soul? If it is the former then what of those whos bodies are decomposed. If it is the latter then it did not happen for a few days after Christ died. And if it is both then it still did not happen at the point that Jesus says he gave up his spirit.

ewq1938
Nov 8th 2012, 04:25 AM
I guess by "see" i mean "see where it says that."

What part?


I guess we would have to define what a "resurrection" is exactly. Is it the body rising? Or the soul?

There are different kinds of resurrections. Bodily is one kind, non-bodily is another.



If it is the former then what of those whos bodies are decomposed.

God can recompose the decomposed if he wishes. What seems impossible to us just isn't impossible for God.




If it is the latter then it did not happen for a few days after Christ died.

Yes, his dead human body lay there for 3 days and did not corrupt, or spoil.

jesse
Nov 8th 2012, 04:31 AM
What part?

The part that says he ascended before he was resurrected.




There are different kinds of resurrections. Bodily is one kind, non-bodily is another.

Is there?




God can recompose the decomposed if he wishes. What seems impossible to us just isn't impossible for God.

But does the bible say he recomposes peoples decomposed bodies?




Yes, his dead human body lay there for 3 days and did not corrupt, or spoil.

I know. The resurrection was a while after he gave up his spirit and descended into Hades. Which would lead me to believe that he did not ascend with his spirit or breath but descended with his soul to Hades.

ewq1938
Nov 8th 2012, 04:41 AM
The part that says he ascended before he was resurrected.


Is there?

Right after he died it is recorded that he resurrected. This was a spiritual resurrection. I don't believe this is what is described as his "ascension" which I believe occurred later when he bodily ascended.




But does the bible say he recomposes peoples decomposed bodies?

I'm not sure it's described in such detail but did not the dead saints rise when Jesus died on the cross? They would have been completely rotted but they appeared to people and I highly doubt they looked like dead zombies.



I know. The resurrection was a while after he gave up his spirit and descended into Hades. Which would lead me to believe that he did not ascend with his spirit or breath but descended with his soul to Hades.

I believe both happened.

Noeb
Nov 8th 2012, 05:00 AM
So is it unanimous that the New Jerusalem is future then? I was under the impression that some saw it as current but elsewhere and in the future it would be here.

I am somewhat at a disadvantage because the site I use to look of bible phrases does not return all the occurrences but gives only some.

But if you look the term "holy city" in Revelation refers to New Jerusalem. Then you have occurrences in Matthew where Satan take the Lord to the highest point on the temple in the Holy City (which makes a lot more sense you could view the nations from heaven and not earthly Jerusalem) In Nehemiah the word for holy city properly means "your holy city" and in Daniel it is also call "your holy city." It is generally God talking (or so it seems) saying "your holy city" which I would assume is earthly Jerusalem.

So in short I am asking or postulating that "your holy city" is Jerusalem. "holy city" is New Jerusalem.

If this is all true then wouldn't that mean that the men who came out of their graves entered the "holy city" of New Jerusalem? I don't know. Which makes sense sort of given that paradise is a garden. And the New Jerusalem is very "garden of eden" like in nature. And there was a resurrection so those guys went somewhere. But it doesn't make sense in that what people would they have appeared to in New Jerusalem? So I could see this all being a wild tangent.No because the point is proof of the resurrection.

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

ewq1938
Nov 8th 2012, 05:02 AM
Exactly. No one can see a resurrection of the spirit so a physical, visible resurrection of others occurred as a sign that Jesus' spirit was not dead and not trapped in a grave.



No because the point is proof of the resurrection.

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Noeb
Nov 8th 2012, 05:02 AM
So you believe that Christ commended his spirit to God... and therefore did not go to hades. But in fact went up to heaven. And then came back down and was raised from the dead and then went back up? For some reason I just don't see that.Commend is not "go to".

ewq1938
Nov 8th 2012, 05:12 AM
Commend is not "go to".


com∑mend
   [kuh-mend]
verb (used with object)
1.
to present, mention, or praise as worthy of confidence, notice, kindness, etc.; recommend: to commend a friend to another; to commend an applicant for employment.
2.
to entrust; give in charge; deliver with confidence: I commend my child to your care.
3.
to cite or name with approval or special praise: to commend a soldier for bravery.
4.
Feudal Law. to place (oneself or one's land) under another's protection so as to become his vassal.
5.
Archaic. to recommend (a person) to the kind remembrance of another.



If you commend a child to someone, the child "goes to" that person. If you commend your spirit to God, it "goes to" God.

Noeb
Nov 8th 2012, 05:22 AM
It was placed in the Father's care. That's all. If God willed Jesus' spirit to Hades that's where it went. Commend is not "got to". It's the care of, not the place of.

ewq1938
Nov 8th 2012, 05:27 AM
It was placed in the Father's care. That's all. If God willed Jesus' spirit to Hades that's where it went. Commend is not "got to". It's the care of, not the place of.


commend

G3908
παρατίθημι
paratithēmi
par-at-ith'-ay-mee
From G3844 and G5087; to place alongside, that is, present (food, truth); by implication to deposit (as a trust or for protection): - allege, commend, commit (the keeping of), put forth, set before.

Noeb
Nov 8th 2012, 05:59 AM
That's what I said.............

ewq1938
Nov 8th 2012, 06:01 AM
That's what I said.............

Did the spirit of Christ "go to" his Father?

Walls
Nov 8th 2012, 09:46 AM
Ok I think I follow what you are saying. However something is going on here I don't get.

You say the Spirit or "breath" (i assume it is the same) returns to God. The body rots. The soul goes down.

Now Jesus to me would be a particular case because he is resurrected in his fleshly body. He comes out of the grave his body doesn't rot etc. He is perfect so that seems justifiable to me.

However some of the dead probably have nothing left to resurrect as far as a body goes they are fully rotten. So the resurrection would be of soul only would it not? And are we not also said to be given a new body? That is kind of the point of 1 Corinthians 15:41 no?

There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 1 Corinthians 15:41


(as far as people walking around in their bodies in the "holy city" look at my response to Noeb and judge it.) Although what I wrote to him is just a thought and probably not accurate. But it doesn't say about those who came out of the tombs if they had their earthly bodies or not. Just that they were resurrected in some fashion and appeared to many people.

OK. This will be a bit long but I can assure you almost a fact per sentence, and a preview of what is largely disregarded or neglected in Christianity today.

According to Genesis 2:7 and 1st Thessalonians 5:23 a "whole" man is spirit, soul and body. So the resurrection is the uniting of spirit (returning from God who gave it - Lk.8:55), the soul ("rising" from Hades - 1st Ki.17:22) and the body (returning from the elements - Dan.12:2). First we must deal with our Lord's resurrection because His body is slightly different to ours. Because of Who He was, the Son of God, and because of His perfect sinlessness and obedience to His Father in all things, God ordained that His body would not start to rot. In Acts 13:36-37 Luke tells us that while David's body saw a normal return to the elements, Christ's did not. Luke is quoting Psalm 16:10 as the promise, and our Lord's resurrection as proof. We see from Lazarus' resurrection that in a hot climate without any embalming, the body would have been corrupting after three or four days (Jn.11:39). But, notwithstanding the fact that our Lord's body did not see corruption, He had, in almost every respect the, the original body. This is evident by His wounds which He asked Thomas to stick his fingers into (Jn.20:24-27). But there was also a difference because neither the women at the tomb, nor the disciples going to Emmaus recognized Him at first. Added to this, after His ascension into glory He underwent another change which (a) frightened Peter James and John on the Mount of Transfiguration, (b) frightened John in Revelation Chapter 1, (the same John who had no trouble to lay upon His breast at the the so-called "Last Supper"), and (c) will frighten the old heaven and earth away at the White Throne judgement in Revelation Chapter 20. More on this shortly.

Now we return to the cases of resurrection recorded by the bible. Elijah raises one person. Elisha raises one. Christ raises a number. And both Peter and Paul raise people from the dead. In ALL cases the body was the same after resurrection. That means that based on scriptural evidence, every man/woman will receive his/her body back. This is absolutely no problem for God as the body was made of the elements of the ground and we know from science that you can change matter but not destroy it. So the bottom line is - each of us get our body back because it is just a matter of putting the elements back into a certain order and composition. But there are differences - and some of them are massive.

When our Lord Jesus rose He said that He was flesh and bone (Lk.24:39). Where was the blood??? The blood is what keeps one physically alive (Gen.9:4; Lev.17:11). So what was keeping our Lord alive AFTER resurrection. The answer is "the divine life of God", or what we would call "eternal life". This is vastly important because 1st Corinthians 15:50 says that "flesh and BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom!" So anyone who inherits the kingdom must have no blood. Now you will see two things regarding the Christians.

Because of our rebirth, we are begotten of God and thus possess the divine life needed for the kingdom (Jn.3:3-6). But initially this rebirth is ONLY for the spirit (Jn.3:6). Then by God adding human resurrection to Christ's experience, and thus making Him the "Life-giving Spirit" in 1st Corinthians 15:45, in context with resurrection, this New Birth now contains the eternal life needed to keep the body alive without blood. So 1st Peter 1:3-5 assures us; "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." John tells us that we are begotten of the SPIRIT in John 3:6, but Peter tells us that we were begotten by the RESURRECTION. The only difference between the two is that the EFFECT of being begotten by the resurrection will only be revealed "in the last time." That is, at the time of our resurrection at the end of this age. Salvation is not only being born again, but being resurrected too. That is when we too, like Christ, will be sustained bodily by divine life, or eternal life, or resurrection life, not by blood. And Peter goes on to tell us that this combination can never be corrupted again. Now note the difference to the NATIONS! They are also resurrected but WITH blood and are always in danger of corruption. So they must be kept alive by the "Leaves of the Tree of Life" (Rev.22:2).
Because of Baptism we are guaranteed to be resurrected like Christ, that is, glorious and without blood. Romans 6:3-5 says; "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." The debate over Baptism rages on in Christian circles because the Bible says that we must be Baptized, and that it is necessary for full salvation (Mk.16:16). But because of this worthless Roman doctrine of "going to heaven" the Christians cannot fit it into the picture. But if full salvation is to (a) be born again, (b) be partaker of the divine life, (c) be transformed into the image of Christ, (d) rule the earth with Him, and (e) be like Him in resurrection, then suddenly the demand and command for Baptism is not only cleared up, but becomes vital. Baptism is a symbolic act showing agreement with a divine principle - that is, the old creation cannot inherit the coming kingdom of God. So it must be buried in the death waters of Baptism. Any Christian who refuses Baptism refuses to be resurrected exactly like Christ for the inheriting of the kingdom - NOT in heaven, but here on earth (Act.8:12).


This all is beautifully summarized in that grand Chapter on resurrection, 1st Corinthians 15.


In verses 20-22 we see that ALL men will be resurrected
In verse 23 we see the order - first Christ, then Jews and Christians at His second coming, then the rest of the dead at the White Throne a thousand years later
In verses 35-36 we see that one has to die to be resurrected
In verse 37 it says what I have said above. The type of grain will produce the same grain (Gen.1:11-12) but there will be differences. That is, the body is still a human body but with additions
In verse 38 we see that this will be done directly by the hand of God and at His pleasure
In verse 39 we see that even though all men will be resurrected there will be differences in the flesh after resurrection between some men and others
In verse 40 we see how massive this difference can be because some bodies will have been prepared in heaven (celestial) with heavenly attributes, and some on earth (terrestrial). The difference in glory will be massive. This agrees with 2nd Corinthians 5.:1-2. Our "celestial" bodies will be constructed in heaven with heavenly attributes. It also shows why I said earlier that heaven and earth will flee from the sight of the glorified Christ in Revelation Chapter 20. His glory is so overwhelming that not even what is on the surface of the earth can withstand what He is. Not so the bodies of the nations. Theirs (terrestrial) will still be constructed by God, but earthly in nature. They will be alive, without corruption and healthy. But they have no such glory as those of the believers.
In verse 41 each man will be given a measure of glory in accordance with how he is seen by God (probably based on works as Christ's is)
In verse 42 the resurrected body cannot die anymore (Lk.20:36)
In verse 44the resurrected body cannot sin anymore as its origin is the Spirit, not nature


I hope this gives you something to work with. We must not be superstitious. God had a plan with man and we are made like we are to eat, sleep and go to the toilet. But at the same time we must attribute to God the power to make the resurrection body as He wants. We will be closely related to our present bodies in resurrection, but there will be vast differences. Thus, those who were resurrected with Christ on resurrection day were recognized for who they were as they walked Jerusalem, but have not been seen since.

Finally, just to hammer home to the reader why we will have these same bodies in resurrection, I will show you their importance. While man is a soul, that is, the main part of man is his soul, and while man has a spirit for his God-given vitality and for an abode for the Spirit of God Himself, the BODY is what makes the Church, the House of the Living God. In 1st Corinthians 6:14-15a it says; "And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ?...." The BODY is vital to God's plan of having an eternal House on earth, that is why Matthew 16:18 says; "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of HADES shall not prevail against it." Our Bodies are vitally important for God's purpose!

percho
Nov 8th 2012, 09:18 PM
OK. This will be a bit long but I can assure you almost a fact per sentence, and a preview of what is largely disregarded or neglected in Christianity today.

According to Genesis 2:7 and 1st Thessalonians 5:23 a "whole" man is spirit, soul and body. So the resurrection is the uniting of spirit (returning from God who gave it - Lk.8:55), the soul ("rising" from Hades - 1st Ki.17:22) and the body (returning from the elements - Dan.12:2). First we must deal with our Lord's resurrection because His body is slightly different to ours. Because of Who He was, the Son of God, and because of His perfect sinlessness and obedience to His Father in all things, God ordained that His body would not start to rot. In Acts 13:36-37 Luke tells us that while David's body saw a normal return to the elements, Christ's did not. Luke is quoting Psalm 16:10 as the promise, and our Lord's resurrection as proof. We see from Lazarus' resurrection that in a hot climate without any embalming, the body would have been corrupting after three or four days (Jn.11:39). But, notwithstanding the fact that our Lord's body did not see corruption, He had, in almost every respect the, the original body. This is evident by His wounds which He asked Thomas to stick his fingers into (Jn.20:24-27). But there was also a difference because neither the women at the tomb, nor the disciples going to Emmaus recognized Him at first. Added to this, after His ascension into glory He underwent another change which (a) frightened Peter James and John on the Mount of Transfiguration, (b) frightened John in Revelation Chapter 1, (the same John who had no trouble to lay upon His breast at the the so-called "Last Supper"), and (c) will frighten the old heaven and earth away at the White Throne judgement in Revelation Chapter 20. More on this shortly.

Now we return to the cases of resurrection recorded by the bible. Elijah raises one person. Elisha raises one. Christ raises a number. And both Peter and Paul raise people from the dead. In ALL cases the body was the same after resurrection. That means that based on scriptural evidence, every man/woman will receive his/her body back. This is absolutely no problem for God as the body was made of the elements of the ground and we know from science that you can change matter but not destroy it. So the bottom line is - each of us get our body back because it is just a matter of putting the elements back into a certain order and composition. But there are differences - and some of them are massive.

When our Lord Jesus rose He said that He was flesh and bone (Lk.24:39). Where was the blood??? The blood is what keeps one physically alive (Gen.9:4; Lev.17:11). So what was keeping our Lord alive AFTER resurrection. The answer is "the divine life of God", or what we would call "eternal life". This is vastly important because 1st Corinthians 15:50 says that "flesh and BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom!" So anyone who inherits the kingdom must have no blood. Now you will see two things regarding the Christians.

Because of our rebirth, we are begotten of God and thus possess the divine life needed for the kingdom (Jn.3:3-6). But initially this rebirth is ONLY for the spirit (Jn.3:6). Then by God adding human resurrection to Christ's experience, and thus making Him the "Life-giving Spirit" in 1st Corinthians 15:45, in context with resurrection, this New Birth now contains the eternal life needed to keep the body alive without blood. So 1st Peter 1:3-5 assures us; "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." John tells us that we are begotten of the SPIRIT in John 3:6, but Peter tells us that we were begotten by the RESURRECTION. The only difference between the two is that the EFFECT of being begotten by the resurrection will only be revealed "in the last time." That is, at the time of our resurrection at the end of this age. Salvation is not only being born again, but being resurrected too. That is when we too, like Christ, will be sustained bodily by divine life, or eternal life, or resurrection life, not by blood. And Peter goes on to tell us that this combination can never be corrupted again. Now note the difference to the NATIONS! They are also resurrected but WITH blood and are always in danger of corruption. So they must be kept alive by the "Leaves of the Tree of Life" (Rev.22:2).
Because of Baptism we are guaranteed to be resurrected like Christ, that is, glorious and without blood. Romans 6:3-5 says; "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." The debate over Baptism rages on in Christian circles because the Bible says that we must be Baptized, and that it is necessary for full salvation (Mk.16:16). But because of this worthless Roman doctrine of "going to heaven" the Christians cannot fit it into the picture. But if full salvation is to (a) be born again, (b) be partaker of the divine life, (c) be transformed into the image of Christ, (d) rule the earth with Him, and (e) be like Him in resurrection, then suddenly the demand and command for Baptism is not only cleared up, but becomes vital. Baptism is a symbolic act showing agreement with a divine principle - that is, the old creation cannot inherit the coming kingdom of God. So it must be buried in the death waters of Baptism. Any Christian who refuses Baptism refuses to be resurrected exactly like Christ for the inheriting of the kingdom - NOT in heaven, but here on earth (Act.8:12).


This all is beautifully summarized in that grand Chapter on resurrection, 1st Corinthians 15.


In verses 20-22 we see that ALL men will be resurrected
In verse 23 we see the order - first Christ, then Jews and Christians at His second coming, then the rest of the dead at the White Throne a thousand years later
In verses 35-36 we see that one has to die to be resurrected
In verse 37 it says what I have said above. The type of grain will produce the same grain (Gen.1:11-12) but there will be differences. That is, the body is still a human body but with additions
In verse 38 we see that this will be done directly by the hand of God and at His pleasure
In verse 39 we see that even though all men will be resurrected there will be differences in the flesh after resurrection between some men and others
In verse 40 we see how massive this difference can be because some bodies will have been prepared in heaven (celestial) with heavenly attributes, and some on earth (terrestrial). The difference in glory will be massive. This agrees with 2nd Corinthians 5.:1-2. Our "celestial" bodies will be constructed in heaven with heavenly attributes. It also shows why I said earlier that heaven and earth will flee from the sight of the glorified Christ in Revelation Chapter 20. His glory is so overwhelming that not even what is on the surface of the earth can withstand what He is. Not so the bodies of the nations. Theirs (terrestrial) will still be constructed by God, but earthly in nature. They will be alive, without corruption and healthy. But they have no such glory as those of the believers.
In verse 41 each man will be given a measure of glory in accordance with how he is seen by God (probably based on works as Christ's is)
In verse 42 the resurrected body cannot die anymore (Lk.20:36)
In verse 44the resurrected body cannot sin anymore as its origin is the Spirit, not nature


I hope this gives you something to work with. We must not be superstitious. God had a plan with man and we are made like we are to eat, sleep and go to the toilet. But at the same time we must attribute to God the power to make the resurrection body as He wants. We will be closely related to our present bodies in resurrection, but there will be vast differences. Thus, those who were resurrected with Christ on resurrection day were recognized for who they were as they walked Jerusalem, but have not been seen since.

Finally, just to hammer home to the reader why we will have these same bodies in resurrection, I will show you their importance. While man is a soul, that is, the main part of man is his soul, and while man has a spirit for his God-given vitality and for an abode for the Spirit of God Himself, the BODY is what makes the Church, the House of the Living God. In 1st Corinthians 6:14-15a it says; "And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ?...." The BODY is vital to God's plan of having an eternal House on earth, that is why Matthew 16:18 says; "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of HADES shall not prevail against it." Our Bodies are vitally important for God's purpose!

Walls, a very, very good post. I would like for you to consider this however. Peter says we are begotten again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
And we have been given the Holy Spirit for assurance of that hope. Titus 3:6,7 Which he shed (the Holy Spirit) on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Now what does Paul say concerning hope? Romans 8:24,25 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].

Do we not have the spirit of adoption, that begets us as sons and we with patience and hope await, the adoption, that is our birth as sons at the appearing and kingdom of Jesus?

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Does that quickening come by resurrection? Was it not by resurrection that this prophetic statement came forth? John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Was he who was resurrected from the dead, no more to return to corruption, Acts 13:34 prior to his death and resurrection fit to enter and or inherit the kingdom of God?

He was the only sinless man to ever live yet through sufferings he learned obedience, became obedient unto death even the death of the cross, with the inquity (sin) of us all was laid on him. He died.
And then??? God the Father raised him from the dead or as it says in Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect. Did the resurrection from the dead make him a perfect new creature, did he then become Hebrews 5:9 the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

What made him perfect?

Was it not the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit? That is, Eternal Life?

Are we presently born of the Spirit or are we begotten of the Spirit awaiting our birth as eternal beings? Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Is that what we hope for?

jesse
Nov 9th 2012, 04:35 AM
OK. This will be a bit long but I can assure you almost a fact per sentence, and a preview of what is largely disregarded or neglected in Christianity today.

According to Genesis 2:7 and 1st Thessalonians 5:23 a "whole" man is spirit, soul and body. So the resurrection is the uniting of spirit (returning from God who gave it - Lk.8:55), the soul ("rising" from Hades - 1st Ki.17:22) and the body (returning from the elements - Dan.12:2). First we must deal with our Lord's resurrection because His body is slightly different to ours. Because of Who He was, the Son of God, and because of His perfect sinlessness and obedience to His Father in all things, God ordained that His body would not start to rot. In Acts 13:36-37 Luke tells us that while David's body saw a normal return to the elements, Christ's did not. Luke is quoting Psalm 16:10 as the promise, and our Lord's resurrection as proof. We see from Lazarus' resurrection that in a hot climate without any embalming, the body would have been corrupting after three or four days (Jn.11:39). But, notwithstanding the fact that our Lord's body did not see corruption, He had, in almost every respect the, the original body. This is evident by His wounds which He asked Thomas to stick his fingers into (Jn.20:24-27). But there was also a difference because neither the women at the tomb, nor the disciples going to Emmaus recognized Him at first. Added to this, after His ascension into glory He underwent another change which (a) frightened Peter James and John on the Mount of Transfiguration, (b) frightened John in Revelation Chapter 1, (the same John who had no trouble to lay upon His breast at the the so-called "Last Supper"), and (c) will frighten the old heaven and earth away at the White Throne judgement in Revelation Chapter 20. More on this shortly.

Now we return to the cases of resurrection recorded by the bible. Elijah raises one person. Elisha raises one. Christ raises a number. And both Peter and Paul raise people from the dead. In ALL cases the body was the same after resurrection. That means that based on scriptural evidence, every man/woman will receive his/her body back. This is absolutely no problem for God as the body was made of the elements of the ground and we know from science that you can change matter but not destroy it. So the bottom line is - each of us get our body back because it is just a matter of putting the elements back into a certain order and composition. But there are differences - and some of them are massive.

When our Lord Jesus rose He said that He was flesh and bone (Lk.24:39). Where was the blood??? The blood is what keeps one physically alive (Gen.9:4; Lev.17:11). So what was keeping our Lord alive AFTER resurrection. The answer is "the divine life of God", or what we would call "eternal life". This is vastly important because 1st Corinthians 15:50 says that "flesh and BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom!" So anyone who inherits the kingdom must have no blood. Now you will see two things regarding the Christians.

Because of our rebirth, we are begotten of God and thus possess the divine life needed for the kingdom (Jn.3:3-6). But initially this rebirth is ONLY for the spirit (Jn.3:6). Then by God adding human resurrection to Christ's experience, and thus making Him the "Life-giving Spirit" in 1st Corinthians 15:45, in context with resurrection, this New Birth now contains the eternal life needed to keep the body alive without blood. So 1st Peter 1:3-5 assures us; "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." John tells us that we are begotten of the SPIRIT in John 3:6, but Peter tells us that we were begotten by the RESURRECTION. The only difference between the two is that the EFFECT of being begotten by the resurrection will only be revealed "in the last time." That is, at the time of our resurrection at the end of this age. Salvation is not only being born again, but being resurrected too. That is when we too, like Christ, will be sustained bodily by divine life, or eternal life, or resurrection life, not by blood. And Peter goes on to tell us that this combination can never be corrupted again. Now note the difference to the NATIONS! They are also resurrected but WITH blood and are always in danger of corruption. So they must be kept alive by the "Leaves of the Tree of Life" (Rev.22:2).
Because of Baptism we are guaranteed to be resurrected like Christ, that is, glorious and without blood. Romans 6:3-5 says; "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." The debate over Baptism rages on in Christian circles because the Bible says that we must be Baptized, and that it is necessary for full salvation (Mk.16:16). But because of this worthless Roman doctrine of "going to heaven" the Christians cannot fit it into the picture. But if full salvation is to (a) be born again, (b) be partaker of the divine life, (c) be transformed into the image of Christ, (d) rule the earth with Him, and (e) be like Him in resurrection, then suddenly the demand and command for Baptism is not only cleared up, but becomes vital. Baptism is a symbolic act showing agreement with a divine principle - that is, the old creation cannot inherit the coming kingdom of God. So it must be buried in the death waters of Baptism. Any Christian who refuses Baptism refuses to be resurrected exactly like Christ for the inheriting of the kingdom - NOT in heaven, but here on earth (Act.8:12).


This all is beautifully summarized in that grand Chapter on resurrection, 1st Corinthians 15.


In verses 20-22 we see that ALL men will be resurrected
In verse 23 we see the order - first Christ, then Jews and Christians at His second coming, then the rest of the dead at the White Throne a thousand years later
In verses 35-36 we see that one has to die to be resurrected
In verse 37 it says what I have said above. The type of grain will produce the same grain (Gen.1:11-12) but there will be differences. That is, the body is still a human body but with additions
In verse 38 we see that this will be done directly by the hand of God and at His pleasure
In verse 39 we see that even though all men will be resurrected there will be differences in the flesh after resurrection between some men and others
In verse 40 we see how massive this difference can be because some bodies will have been prepared in heaven (celestial) with heavenly attributes, and some on earth (terrestrial). The difference in glory will be massive. This agrees with 2nd Corinthians 5.:1-2. Our "celestial" bodies will be constructed in heaven with heavenly attributes. It also shows why I said earlier that heaven and earth will flee from the sight of the glorified Christ in Revelation Chapter 20. His glory is so overwhelming that not even what is on the surface of the earth can withstand what He is. Not so the bodies of the nations. Theirs (terrestrial) will still be constructed by God, but earthly in nature. They will be alive, without corruption and healthy. But they have no such glory as those of the believers.
In verse 41 each man will be given a measure of glory in accordance with how he is seen by God (probably based on works as Christ's is)
In verse 42 the resurrected body cannot die anymore (Lk.20:36)
In verse 44the resurrected body cannot sin anymore as its origin is the Spirit, not nature


I hope this gives you something to work with. We must not be superstitious. God had a plan with man and we are made like we are to eat, sleep and go to the toilet. But at the same time we must attribute to God the power to make the resurrection body as He wants. We will be closely related to our present bodies in resurrection, but there will be vast differences. Thus, those who were resurrected with Christ on resurrection day were recognized for who they were as they walked Jerusalem, but have not been seen since.

Finally, just to hammer home to the reader why we will have these same bodies in resurrection, I will show you their importance. While man is a soul, that is, the main part of man is his soul, and while man has a spirit for his God-given vitality and for an abode for the Spirit of God Himself, the BODY is what makes the Church, the House of the Living God. In 1st Corinthians 6:14-15a it says; "And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ?...." The BODY is vital to God's plan of having an eternal House on earth, that is why Matthew 16:18 says; "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of HADES shall not prevail against it." Our Bodies are vitally important for God's purpose!

Ok. I don't want to sound ungrateful for you answering me. But why do you think Daniel 12:2 is talking about a physical body being resurrected? Similarly, Elijah, Elisha, and Jesus all resurrected people sure. But it wasn't the same as "The" resurrection. It was a type or shadow. No? Similar to Jesus giving "sight" to the "blind." They still died later and will be raised again at "the" resurrection. So although it is a type of "resurrection" it wouldn't be the same but just something earthly that shows us some greater truth. Wouldn't it still stand to reason that their earthly bodies do not endure any reassembling but that they receive a new body? Wouldn't my future body that awaits bears as much resemblance to this body as a seed bears resemblance to a tree. Seeds generally shed their "seed coat" or outer layer. It doesn't make sense in my mind when talking about seeds turning into trees to think that the body that dies will have to be resurrected in any way. The tree has a new outer layer that is not like the old outer layer of the seed. The seeds old outer layer is shed. (I am not sure I am explaining what i am thinking very well.)

Later on you say that the "nations" are resurrected with blood. Could you show a scripture regarding that?

Walls
Nov 9th 2012, 07:28 AM
Walls, a very, very good post. I would like for you to consider this however. Peter says we are begotten again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
And we have been given the Holy Spirit for assurance of that hope. Titus 3:6,7 Which he shed (the Holy Spirit) on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Now what does Paul say concerning hope? Romans 8:24,25 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].

Do we not have the spirit of adoption, that begets us as sons and we with patience and hope await, the adoption, that is our birth as sons at the appearing and kingdom of Jesus?

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Does that quickening come by resurrection? Was it not by resurrection that this prophetic statement came forth? John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Was he who was resurrected from the dead, no more to return to corruption, Acts 13:34 prior to his death and resurrection fit to enter and or inherit the kingdom of God?

He was the only sinless man to ever live yet through sufferings he learned obedience, became obedient unto death even the death of the cross, with the inquity (sin) of us all was laid on him. He died.
And then??? God the Father raised him from the dead or as it says in Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect. Did the resurrection from the dead make him a perfect new creature, did he then become Hebrews 5:9 the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

What made him perfect?

Was it not the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit? That is, Eternal Life?

Are we presently born of the Spirit or are we begotten of the Spirit awaiting our birth as eternal beings? Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Is that what we hope for?

Thank you for your kind words. OK. First, I must say that I am encouraged because you did not in any way dismantle what I said. So if that stand, let us examine the matter of our "HOPE."

As Paul traveled and disseminated the gospel, he, before he cast aside the Jews for their unbelief, argues about the "hope of all Israel." "... he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question." (Acts 23:6). Here, you will note that it is NOT, "the hope OF the resurrection." It is "the hope AND the resurrection." That is, there is the fact of the hope of every Jew for resurrection, AND there is the fact that there really is a resurrection.

And again he confirms this before Felix; "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." (Acts 24:14-15)

And again before Agrippa; "And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:" (Acts 26:6)

Then Paul addresses the Church at Rome in Romans 8:19-25. "19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it." Here Paul predicts the salvation of the creature. And it is all based on, and at the time of, the resurrection of the Christians. This lifting of the bondage of the rest of the creature is for the blissful conditions on earth during the Millennial reign of Christ. So, the prerequisite for the lifting of corruption and bondage of the rest of the creature is the lifting of the corruption and bondage of our bodies.

Back to 1st Corinthians Chapter 15 we find; "12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." (verses 15:12-19). This is very strong language by the Holy Spirit. Look at the consequences of denying bodily resurrection;

We deny Christ's resurrection
Our preaching of the gospel would be vain, and in vain
We are found false witnesses of Christ
Our faith would be in vain
We are still in our sins
Those Christians who have died have perished (experienced complete destruction - Lit. Greek)
We are more miserable creatures than all heathen, idol worshipers, criminals, psychopaths, depressives and cripples


Then that grand Chapter on the rapture in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18. "13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

The Christians in Thessaloniki were worried that those who had died had missed the rapture. So Paul corrects this and shows that their fellow Christians suffer no disadvantage in rapture by being dead. They are first resurrected bodily and then with the Christians who are still in their earthly body, are caught away to the air. (Naturally, from 1st Corinthians 15:51-57 we know that these earthly bodies of the living saints are to be changed in an instant to the glorious and incorruptible bodies that we are promised.)

And finally, that irreversible statement (which, in retrospect, I should have included in my previous posting above and coupled with Romans Chapter 6). "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." (1st John 3:2-3)

I believe, based on these many scriptures, that the HOPE of Israel is the resurrection and the HOPE of the Church is resurrection. Even the heathen hope for a bodily return whether they believe in their (false) re-incarnation or not.

Walls
Nov 9th 2012, 08:20 AM
Ok. I don't want to sound ungrateful for you answering me. But why do you think Daniel 12:2 is talking about a physical body being resurrected? Similarly, Elijah, Elisha, and Jesus all resurrected people sure. But it wasn't the same as "The" resurrection. It was a type or shadow. No? Similar to Jesus giving "sight" to the "blind." They still died later and will be raised again at "the" resurrection. So although it is a type of "resurrection" it wouldn't be the same but just something earthly that shows us some greater truth. Wouldn't it still stand to reason that their earthly bodies do not endure any reassembling but that they receive a new body? Wouldn't my future body that awaits bears as much resemblance to this body as a seed bears resemblance to a tree. Seeds generally shed their "seed coat" or outer layer. It doesn't make sense in my mind when talking about seeds turning into trees to think that the body that dies will have to be resurrected in any way. The tree has a new outer layer that is not like the old outer layer of the seed. The seeds old outer layer is shed. (I am not sure I am explaining what i am thinking very well.)

Later on you say that the "nations" are resurrected with blood. Could you show a scripture regarding that?

Your point is valid. But first we must settle the issue of those resurrected by Elijah, Elisha, Peter, Paul and our Lord Jesus. It is an irrivocable fact of scripture that a man cannot die more than once (Heb.9:27). So what shall we say then of these who were obviously dead and who were resurrected? We must say, if we are obedient to God's Word, that they cannot die again. And if the cannot die again, they cannot be resurrected again.

BUT.....

Your point about it not being "THE" resurrection is perfectly valid. So what shall we say? I say what I said in my posting above. The only relaible information about resurrection is these few cases and they all show that the resurrected person had nearly the same body as before.

BUT.....

I also maintained that in that most documented resurrection of our Lord Jesus, He went through a process of increasing glory. Look at this;

At the Tomb when He met the women he was not remarkable. The women did not recognize Him but were not afraid (they were more afraid of the angel of the Lord who rolled back the stone).
About 15 hours later the disciples were hiding and our Lord stood in their midst - and they were afraid. Our Lord Jesus had changed since going to the Father and back
Then, when our Lord returns in glory and sets up His throne to judge the nations in Matthew 25:31 onwards (about 2'000 years later), He has a much greater glory and power, the power to destroy the Beast with His mouth (2nd Thess.2:8).
Then, when our Lord sets up the White Throne in Revelation Chapter 20, the glory is so intense that heaven and earth flee from it

Thus....
It is already established in scripture that the resurrection body can go through a process of increasing glory. If this is so then;

Your statement that a tree bears little resemblance to a seed is correct
That the bodies of Lazarus etc., who experienced resurrection, will undergo further glorification based on their standing with the Lord at the time of death ("celestial" for "believers" and terrestrial for unbelievers. Let's say the boy in 1st Kings 17 was not aware of the coming Savior and was just a normal unbeliever. His progress in glory would be "terrestrial." But maybe Lazarus believed in Jesus before He died. His body would be changed to "celestial" for the future.)
We do not have to overthrow Hebrews 9:27
The resurrections of those mentioned were real and not types

The reason I maintain that the nations are resurrected with blood is that the Nation of Israel, which did not accept Christ, and thus will not have a resurrection like Christ, produce children in the Millennium (Isa.54:13; Jer.30:18-20, 32:37-39 etc.). The male sperm is a product of blood. That they have blood would confirm that they did not inherit the kingdom. However, I will agree that the condition of the blood will be different from today. As sin is transmitted by the male, and as "death" is swallowed up by resurrection, the blood of the resurrected ones will not have this feature. But, I can only deduce this by circumstantial evidence and you can strike it if you like. All I can say is that the mind of a student of the bible must draw all arguments to their logical conclusion, otherwise gaps are left. Do you think the nations will have blood in their bodies after resurrection?

As a student of scripture I try not to go far from God's original purpose unless He states otherwise. He made man flesh and blood. He was happy with this setup. In all His work of six days in Genesis Chapter 1 God said "it was good". But with man He said "it was very good." The restoration of men will closely follow the original product. To go beyond this is superstitious.

ewq1938
Nov 9th 2012, 08:24 AM
It is an irrivocable fact of scripture that a man cannot die more than once (Heb.9:27). So what shall we say then of these who were obviously dead and who were resurrected? We must say, if we are obedient to God's Word, that they cannot die again. And if the cannot die again, they cannot be resurrected again.

No fact there. A man can die twice if he dies a human death, then is raised back to human life. He will die again because he is again mortal.

Walls
Nov 9th 2012, 08:50 AM
No fact there. A man can die twice if he dies a human death, then is raised back to human life. He will die again because he is again mortal.

OK. Your appreciation of Hebrews 9:27 is noted. I didn't know that a human could die as anything else than a human.

ewq1938
Nov 9th 2012, 08:54 AM
OK. Your appreciation of Hebrews 9:27 is noted.

There are exceptions to rules. It is a fact that *some* have died a human death twice.


I didn't know that a human could die as anything else than a human.

They don't. A human death is a human death.

Walls
Nov 9th 2012, 01:02 PM
There are exceptions to rules. It is a fact that *some* have died a human death twice.



They don't. A human death is a human death.

I would have thought that you would have given the verses showing the exceptions by now. And since Hebrews 9:27 is a false statement, what about;

"But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection" (Luke 20:35-36)?

And if resurrection is not the end of death then this verses is false too;

"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Cor 15:54)

percho
Nov 9th 2012, 03:16 PM
Thank you for your kind words. OK. First, I must say that I am encouraged because you did not in any way dismantle what I said. So if that stand, let us examine the matter of our "HOPE."

As Paul traveled and disseminated the gospel, he, before he cast aside the Jews for their unbelief, argues about the "hope of all Israel." "... he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question." (Acts 23:6). Here, you will note that it is NOT, "the hope OF the resurrection." It is "the hope AND the resurrection." That is, there is the fact of the hope of every Jew for resurrection, AND there is the fact that there really is a resurrection.

And again he confirms this before Felix; "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." (Acts 24:14-15)

And again before Agrippa; "And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:" (Acts 26:6)

Then Paul addresses the Church at Rome in Romans 8:19-25. "19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it." Here Paul predicts the salvation of the creature. And it is all based on, and at the time of, the resurrection of the Christians. This lifting of the bondage of the rest of the creature is for the blissful conditions on earth during the Millennial reign of Christ. So, the prerequisite for the lifting of corruption and bondage of the rest of the creature is the lifting of the corruption and bondage of our bodies.

Back to 1st Corinthians Chapter 15 we find; "12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." (verses 15:12-19). This is very strong language by the Holy Spirit. Look at the consequences of denying bodily resurrection;

We deny Christ's resurrection
Our preaching of the gospel would be vain, and in vain
We are found false witnesses of Christ
Our faith would be in vain
We are still in our sins
Those Christians who have died have perished (experienced complete destruction - Lit. Greek)
We are more miserable creatures than all heathen, idol worshipers, criminals, psychopaths, depressives and cripples


Then that grand Chapter on the rapture in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18. "13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

The Christians in Thessaloniki were worried that those who had died had missed the rapture. So Paul corrects this and shows that their fellow Christians suffer no disadvantage in rapture by being dead. They are first resurrected bodily and then with the Christians who are still in their earthly body, are caught away to the air. (Naturally, from 1st Corinthians 15:51-57 we know that these earthly bodies of the living saints are to be changed in an instant to the glorious and incorruptible bodies that we are promised.)

And finally, that irreversible statement (which, in retrospect, I should have included in my previous posting above and coupled with Romans Chapter 6). "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." (1st John 3:2-3)

I believe, based on these many scriptures, that the HOPE of Israel is the resurrection and the HOPE of the Church is resurrection. Even the heathen hope for a bodily return whether they believe in their (false) re-incarnation or not.

I believe we agree on much. Actually I think Paul's concept of hope is in this context Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
With hope being the resurrection which takes place at the appearing.

In my opinion yet I know, no Greek, my understanding of the once dying passage of Hebrews is that it was once appointed that men should die rather than them dying once and only once otherwise there could not be the second death.

I believe that appointment of death was made when it was ordained from the foundation of the world that the lamb without spot or blemish would shed his blood that is be slain.

This was ordained before the first man Adam was created. And I believe it was ordained for the destruction of him who has the power of death that is the devil, Satan and by doing that, redemption would come to man.

Walls
Nov 9th 2012, 03:29 PM
I believe we agree on much. Actually I think Paul's concept of hope is in this context Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
With hope being the resurrection which takes place at the appearing.

In my opinion yet I know, no Greek, my understanding of the once dying passage of Hebrews is that it was once appointed that men should die rather than them dying once and only once otherwise there could not be the second death.

I believe that appointment of death was made when it was ordained from the foundation of the world that the lamb without spot or blemish would shed his blood that is be slain.

This was ordained before the first man Adam was created. And I believe it was ordained for the destruction of him who has the power of death that is the devil, Satan and by doing that, redemption would come to man.

I think we agree on just about everything. What has happened is that the doctrine of "going to heaven when one dies" has, for all intents and purposes, negated bodily resurrection. Why should there be resurrection if we go to heaven? In my travels to diverse groups of Christians, I have been met with stupefied looks when I have broached this massively important subject. Resurrection has never crossed the minds of many Christians, and I don't blame them. Their teachers have been so busy with other things like "tithing" and "tongues" that the great truths of scripture have been left behind. Have you ever considered actually how bad, and how pitiful the standard of teaching in Christianity is? Hebrews 6:2 says that resurrection is one of the basics of our faith and that we should put it behind us and move on to maturity. Yet here we are still squabbling about BASICS. How are we ever going to move on?

What a sad indictment, not on Christians or Christianity as a whole, but on the teachers. All of you who read this, ask yourself; "When last did I hear a teaching on resurrection in my Assembly?

God bless

ewq1938
Nov 9th 2012, 11:10 PM
I would have thought that you would have given the verses showing the exceptions by now.


Anyone raised back to human life eventually died again. Lazarus was one.



And since Hebrews 9:27 is a false statement, what about;

It is not a false statement. Did Jesus sin? Because there is a scripture that says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. OR, is there an exception to it?






"But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection" (Luke 20:35-36)?

And if resurrection is not the end of death then this verses is false too;

"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Cor 15:54)

These verses speak of receiving eternal life. Lazarus was raised to human life, not eternal life so he died a second time.


Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Exceptions both ways on this verse as some have died twice and there are some that shall not die but be changed. Remember that verse?


In general MOST humans will die once, some have died twice, some will not die even once.

ewq1938
Nov 9th 2012, 11:16 PM
I think we agree on just about everything. What has happened is that the doctrine of "going to heaven when one dies" has, for all intents and purposes, negated bodily resurrection. Why should there be resurrection if we go to heaven?


"going to heaven" is different than receiving eternal life. satan has been to earth and "gone to heaven". Heaven is a place, not a reward. It's misused in today's language.



Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Watchman
Nov 9th 2012, 11:21 PM
But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

Paul seems unconcerned with heaven and enthralled with gaining Christ...me too.

blessings,

Watchman :)

Noeb
Nov 10th 2012, 03:37 AM
What has happened is that the doctrine of "going to heaven when one dies" has, for all intents and purposes, negated bodily resurrection.It does not.


Why should there be resurrection if we go to heaven?If you have to ask, you don't understand it.

Walls
Nov 10th 2012, 04:28 AM
Anyone raised back to human life eventually died again. Lazarus was one.




It is not a false statement. Did Jesus sin? Because there is a scripture that says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. OR, is there an exception to it?







These verses speak of receiving eternal life. Lazarus was raised to human life, not eternal life so he died a second time.


Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Exceptions both ways on this verse as some have died twice and there are some that shall not die but be changed. Remember that verse?


In general MOST humans will die once, some have died twice, some will not die even once.


OK. Your opinion is noted. May the other readers judge. This Forum is called Let's Talk Bible, and again you produce not one verse to support your belief. Without scripture one can state anything, as do the superstitious tribes of the jungle, tribes of the deserts, tribes of the plains and the millions in so-called civilization.

Hebrews 9:27 is within the context of sacrifices for sins. The Book of Hebrews is written to Christians who were once Hebrews. They, through the manifold persecutions, where teetering on the brink of going back to Moses. One of the things of Moses' Law was the many sacrifices for the many transgressions. But the author of Hebrews shows that when the Man Jesus died for sins He dies once for all, and never again. And then he comes to a statement that Christ could never die again anyway because God has ordained men to die once. All you have to do to show exceptions for this ordinance of God is two case (for everything in scripture is established by two or three witnesses). I find not a single case of a man or woman dying twice. If you do, please show us.

The resurrection is the body receiving life. Eternal life is a gift of God and is obtained by faith in the finished work of Christ. Christ was possessor of eternal life all along, having been born by the Holy Spirit (Lk.1:35), BUT HE WAS RESURRECTED after human death on the cross. I have eternal life having believed in the completed works of our Lord Jesus, but I still have to die and be resurrected. But you say I only receive eternal life at the resurrection? You deny huge portions of scripture.

ewq1938
Nov 10th 2012, 04:40 AM
Without scripture one can state anything, as do the superstitious tribes of the jungle, tribes of the deserts, tribes of the plains and the millions in so-called civilization.

Bah. I referred to well known scriptures, even quoting one.



I have eternal life having believed in the completed works of our Lord Jesus, but I still have to die and be resurrected. But you say I only receive eternal life at the resurrection? You deny huge portions of scripture.

?? Didn't you just attempt to dress me down for not having scripture (though I mentioned two) and here you are claiming I deny huge portions of scripture yet you don't refer to a single one I supposedly have denied? NO ONE (humans) has eternal life before it's judged that they receive it. You only have the PROMISE of it. If you think you are eternal right now you are in for a big surprise when you die, then have to wait until judgment day for God to decide if you will receive eternal life or not.

God's legacy
Nov 10th 2012, 05:32 AM
Bah. I referred to well known scriptures, even quoting one.




?? Didn't you just attempt to dress me down for not having scripture (though I mentioned two) and here you are claiming I deny huge portions of scripture yet you don't refer to a single one I supposedly have denied? NO ONE (humans) has eternal life before it's judged that they receive it. You only have the PROMISE of it. If you think you are eternal right now you are in for a big surprise when you die, then have to wait until judgment day for God to decide if you will receive eternal life or not.

I'm sorry I'm just responding to the tail end of this thread without reviewing earlier posts.
But as far as I know in the first resurrection those in Christ that are dead like the apostles, David. etc. are raised from the dead(they are now eternal spiritual beings) without a judgment day and they join those that are alive in Christ at His return that have been instantly changed to spirits and they meet up together in the air at the same time.
Together they reign with Christ for the duration of the 1,000 years. Then the rest of the dead, everyone else who ever lived, were resurrected
Rev 20:4-6

Walls
Nov 10th 2012, 05:33 AM
It does not.

If you have to ask, you don't understand it.

Ever heard of a rhetorical question? The bulk of my previous posts should have more than settled what I understand.

But maybe the time has come for you, not to attack my proposal that man's destiny is earth and not heaven, but to lay forth, with scriptures, as I have my argument, your argument that men go to heaven after death. Thus, before all readers, you have the chance to re-establish, with scriptures, that men go to heaven when they die, as you have maintained all along.

Walls
Nov 10th 2012, 05:51 AM
?? Didn't you just attempt to dress me down for not having scripture (though I mentioned two) and here you are claiming I deny huge portions of scripture yet you don't refer to a single one I supposedly have denied? NO ONE (humans) has eternal life before it's judged that they receive it. You only have the PROMISE of it. If you think you are eternal right now you are in for a big surprise when you die, then have to wait until judgment day for God to decide if you will receive eternal life or not.

"11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1st John 5:11-13)

ALL PAST TENSE! Who shall I believe, you or scripture?

And again in connection with the subject at hand. "53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:53-54).

"Hath" is past tense while the resurrection is reserved for the future. Who shall I believe, you or scripture?

ewq1938
Nov 10th 2012, 05:57 AM
"11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1st John 5:11-13)

ALL PAST TENSE! Who shall I believe, you or scripture?

And again in connection with the subject at hand. "53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:53-54).

"Hath" is past tense while the resurrection is reserved for the future. Who shall I believe, you or scripture?

Both, with understanding.



Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

"to come" means NOT NOW

Eternal life only comes in the next world, not this one. What we have NOW is the PROMISE.



1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

We are PROMISED eternal life in the WORLD TO COME.


Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

They did NOT have eternal life at the time of this writing! They were HEIRS, WAITING WITH HOPE to inherit eternal life which is received in the WORLD TO COME which means not this world, not this life but the next...the future!

Noeb
Nov 10th 2012, 06:32 AM
But maybe the time has come for you, not to attack my proposal that man's destiny is earth and not heavenI have never attacked this. I say the same all the time, and am quite sure I have in this thread as well. Of course man's destiny is earth. Heaven comes to earth. I've been very clear. That I have to repeat is and you have to make the false accusation proves you don't understand.

Walls
Nov 10th 2012, 07:28 AM
Both, with understanding.



Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

"to come" means NOT NOW

Eternal life only comes in the next world, not this one. What we have NOW is the PROMISE.



1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

We are PROMISED eternal life in the WORLD TO COME.


Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

They did NOT have eternal life at the time of this writing! They were HEIRS, WAITING WITH HOPE to inherit eternal life which is received in the WORLD TO COME which means not this world, not this life but the next...the future!

Shall we deal with the verses I posted first? I am then fully willing to deal with yours. When ever there is an apparent discrepancy in scripture the answer is not far.

ewq1938
Nov 10th 2012, 07:40 AM
"11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1st John 5:11-13)

ALL PAST TENSE! Who shall I believe, you or scripture?

The same John recorded this:

Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

If you have eternal life, why do you need to be "raised up"?

I think the INTENTION here is not that they have eternal life but they have the PROMISE...which is fulfilled on the last day, and when they are "raised up".

A scripture here or there seem to say one thing but considering a lot of scriptures about the subject will reveal a less narrow view.









And again in connection with the subject at hand. "53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:53-54).

"Hath" is past tense while the resurrection is reserved for the future. Who shall I believe, you or scripture?

It's a suspended promise. These kinds will die knowing when they are raised, they will receive eternal life. It's LIKE they have it already but it's a figure of speech...they don't possess eternal life yet, but they shall.

My response post adds to that sentiment with scriptures to prove it.

Walls
Nov 10th 2012, 10:39 AM
The same John recorded this:

Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

If you have eternal life, why do you need to be "raised up"?

I think the INTENTION here is not that they have eternal life but they have the PROMISE...which is fulfilled on the last day, and when they are "raised up".

A scripture here or there seem to say one thing but considering a lot of scriptures about the subject will reveal a less narrow view.


It's a suspended promise. These kinds will die knowing when they are raised, they will receive eternal life. It's LIKE they have it already but it's a figure of speech...they don't possess eternal life yet, but they shall.

My response post adds to that sentiment with scriptures to prove it.

Do I understand correctly that you are saying the use of the past tense use by the Holy Spirit was a mistake? Why I say this is that any language, especially Greek (but equally English), has rules to make it coherent. If those rules are violated the language ceases to be of use to anybody. For instance, "He did his driver's license exam and has become an accomplished driver." This means that the driver's license exam is still future, but in the mean time he is an accomplished driver... or not?

Did the Holy Spirit make this same mistake in John 3:36? "He that believeth on the Son hath (past tense) everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life (future tense); but the wrath of God abideth (present continuous tense) on him."

Similarly, if we compare Romans 8:9-11 with 1 John 5:12 we come to the same thing - all past tense. In Romans 8:9-11 it is "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Here it is clear that the whole Triune God dwells in the Christian (written by Paul almost 2'000 years ago). But John says in this regard, "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life" - all past tense. The fact of the Godhead dwelling in man gives him eternal life. So also with "sonship". Once we are born of the Father, or Son, or Holy Spirit, we possess that life - albeit only in the spirit, not the flesh.

I would say that "having eternal life" is a matter of faith and happens to the believer at the moment of belief and confession in Jesus Christ. That is why it is always past tense. I don't believe that you will accuse the Holy Spirit of grammatical error, especially as it seems to have happened a number of times. What we have to do is find out why "eternal life" is sometimes used in the future tense. I will give you a hint, using your own choice of verses.

You used;
Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

Have you noticed that both of these verses do not address faith, but works? I could give you another 10 or so with works as the way to "eternal life" not faith. And nearly all of them say "enter" or inherit" eternal life NOT "have" eternal life. Look here;
Matthew 19:16

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (See the Lordís answer)

Matthew 25:46

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (for what they did)

Mark 10:17

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? (See the Lord's answer)

Luke 10:25

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Luke 18:18

And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

John 4:36

And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

John 12:25

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it untolife eternal.

Romans 2:7

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Romans 5:21

That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Timothy 6:12

Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

1 Timothy 6:19

Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Jude 21

Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

God's legacy
Nov 10th 2012, 04:00 PM
Both, with understanding.



Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

"to come" means NOT NOW

Eternal life only comes in the next world, not this one. What we have NOW is the PROMISE.



1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

We are PROMISED eternal life in the WORLD TO COME.


Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

They did NOT have eternal life at the time of this writing! They were HEIRS, WAITING WITH HOPE to inherit eternal life which is received in the WORLD TO COME which means not this world, not this life but the next...the future!

The dead and those living in Christ-yes
The rest of the dead-the billions of people in mankind's history- NO
They will have to earn it in the second resurrection when they are brought back to human life and then after a period will be judged in the The Great White Throne Judgment-Read Revelation 20

Noeb
Nov 10th 2012, 04:19 PM
The dead and those living in Christ-yes
The rest of the dead-the billions of people in mankind's history- NO
They will have to earn it in the second resurrection when they are brought back to human life and then after a period will be judged in the The Great White Throne Judgment-Read Revelation 20
There is no period of time after the second resurrection. They are resurrected to "The Great White Throne Judgment-Read Revelation 20".

ewq1938
Nov 10th 2012, 06:34 PM
Do I understand correctly that you are saying the use of the past tense use by the Holy Spirit was a mistake?

I was very clear about what I was saying. Re-read it:


I think the INTENTION here is not that they have eternal life but they have the PROMISE...which is fulfilled on the last day, and when they are "raised up".

A scripture here or there seem to say one thing but considering a lot of scriptures about the subject will reveal a less narrow view.

The "past tense" refers to the receiving of the PROMISE of eternal life, not eternal life itself. One or two verses by themselves would not make this evident, but with scripture as a whole we understand what John is writing about.


Similarly, if we compare Romans 8:9-11 with 1 John 5:12 we come to the same thing - all past tense. In Romans 8:9-11 it is "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Here it is clear that the whole Triune God dwells in the Christian (written by Paul almost 2'000 years ago). But John says in this regard, "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life" - all past tense. The fact of the Godhead dwelling in man gives him eternal life. So also with "sonship". Once we are born of the Father, or Son, or Holy Spirit, we possess that life - albeit only in the spirit, not the flesh.

This is a red herring. Having the Spirit now is unrelated to the issue of when one receives eternal life.





You used;
Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

Have you noticed that both of these verses do not address faith, but works?

Works is not the subject in both verses. Both address that in the next world is eternal life. It is not something we receive while we are human. We receive the promise of it and have faith that we will inherit eternal life "that which is to come" "in the world to come".





I could give you another 10 or so with works as the way to "eternal life" not faith. And nearly all of them say "enter" or inherit" eternal life NOT "have" eternal life. Look here;
Matthew 19:16

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (See the Lord’s answer)

There is only one "eternal life" in the scriptures. It doesn't matter if the question asked is about "what can I do" to receive it. We aren't even discussing how we receive eternal life but when.



Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Even in Christ's answer we see that everlasting life is a future thing to inherit. All we had to do is read 22 more verses ahead.






Matthew 25:46

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (for what they did)

Mark 10:17

Still it's a future event. All are judged for what they have done. Some get eternal life, some eternal death.




And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? (See the Lord's answer)


This is the same conversation and the same answer is found:

Mar 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.





Luke 10:25

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?




Same answer is given.


John 4:36

And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

Eternal life is the "wage" one receives, eventually.



John 12:25

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it untolife eternal.

And John cannot be clearer that this is a promise later to be inherited:

1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

A promise that comes later, not in our lives.




Romans 2:7

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

"patient continuance" to seek such things.



Romans 5:21

That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Eternal life is the end result, a promise fulfilled.




1 Timothy 6:12

Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Eternal life is not some animal that is caught and owned.



1 Timothy 6:19

Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Here it is even explained..."Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come" this is speaking about a lifetime of having faith, pleasing God, good works...building a foundation that will lead to being written in the book of life and receiving eternal life on judgment day.

Read it in context:


1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
1Ti 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1Ti 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
1Ti 6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

It is only at that time one may "lay hold" and possess eternal life.



Jude 21

Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

All leads to eternal life.


You however have not answered why it is written that eternal life comes in the future, in the next world if we supposedly are able to have it now.

Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

You didn't comment on these verses which only serve to make this issue crystal clear.

God's legacy
Nov 10th 2012, 08:57 PM
There is no period of time after the second resurrection. They are resurrected to "The Great White Throne Judgment-Read Revelation 20".

God says He loves the whole world unequivocally and He wants everyone to be saved who believes in Him. -John 3:16.

Can God judge them for not having believed in His name and laws they never knew at the Great White throne judgment?

The rest of the dead include infants, aborigines, anybody who never had a chance to know Jesus in all of history.
No one is left out of God's salvation plan. We are talking about billions of people, the majority of mankind.

God is bringing them back to life not to condemn them through no fault of their own but rather to give them the opportunity to know God and His word for the first time.

But during their time alive again(the 2nd resurrection) God will hold them accountable for what they do, but only after they learn what God would have them do.
Revelation 20:12-13-" ....and the dead, every man were judged according to their works".
This tells us there has to be a period of time for the rest of the dead to learn God's way first before they are judged to condemnation or life.
It just doesn't tell us how much time God has allowed for them to appreciate the real truth and what they do with it. That's your "works" necessary to judge the rest of the dead.

percho
Nov 11th 2012, 04:35 AM
I have a question. The priests and Levites asked John the Baptist in John 1:21 YLT And they questioned him, `What then? Elijah art thou?' and he saith, `I am not.' -- `The prophet art thou?' and he answered, `No.'

Being Jesus was, "the prophet." they were asking about, should we understand the words of Jesus prophetically, as in say, John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Did Jesus at that moment have life in himself, which I take to mean eternal life, or quickened life? Did not that quickening life come by resurrection from the dead? See 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth and also 1 Cor 15:45,46 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward (Doesn't this mean after the resurrection? that which is spiritual. ???

We are heirs of and joint heirs with Christ. Isn't eternal life one of the things we are joint heirs of? Did Jesus inherit eternal life? If yes, when did he inherit eternal life? Don't heirs inherit what they do not already possess?

Noeb
Nov 11th 2012, 05:25 AM
God says He loves the whole world unequivocally and He wants everyone to be saved who believes in Him. -John 3:16.

Can God judge them for not having believed in His name and laws they never knew at the Great White throne judgment?

The rest of the dead include infants, aborigines, anybody who never had a chance to know Jesus in all of history.
No one is left out of God's salvation plan. We are talking about billions of people, the majority of mankind.

God is bringing them back to life not to condemn them through no fault of their own but rather to give them the opportunity to know God and His word for the first time.

But during their time alive again(the 2nd resurrection) God will hold them accountable for what they do, but only after they learn what God would have them do.
Revelation 20:12-13-" ....and the dead, every man were judged according to their works".
This tells us there has to be a period of time for the rest of the dead to learn God's way first before they are judged to condemnation or life.
It just doesn't tell us how much time God has allowed for them to appreciate the real truth and what they do with it. That's your "works" necessary to judge the rest of the dead.I am certain the judgement of God is according to the truth that all men are born with and to the degree they know and understand it. What I would like you to tell me is when this time you mention happens? The earthly reign is after the first resurrection. Do you think it is on the New earth, after death and hell are cast into the lake of fire? What scriptural support would you suggest I read?

Walls
Nov 11th 2012, 07:31 AM
....

You however have not answered why it is written that eternal life comes in the future, in the next world if we supposedly are able to have it now.

Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

You didn't comment on these verses which only serve to make this issue crystal clear.

OK. Lets leave it then. We are arguing at cross purposes. Suffice to say that there are two sets of verses pertaining to eternal life. The first set speak of eternal life that is "had" by faith and mostly the sense is past tense. These I did not post. The second set, the ones I posted in my last post, speak of eternal life to be gained by works, and it is almost always future tense. There is a very good reason for this and the explanation is fully in accordance with the revelation of God's plan for man who was put before the Tree of Life, in a Garden of Pleasure. But if this fact of eternal life being "had" by faith, and later earned by works is not worth making a difference in the two sets of verses, I'm happy to pass.

God bless

ewq1938
Nov 11th 2012, 07:37 AM
But if this fact of eternal life being "had" by faith, and later earned by works is not worth making a difference in the two sets of verses, I'm happy to pass.

"had by faith" is significant here because FAITH is something HOPED for. Hope and faith in an eternal life is important to our faith and hope.

percho
Nov 11th 2012, 07:57 PM
"had by faith" is significant here because FAITH is something HOPED for. Hope and faith in an eternal life is important to our faith and hope.

Faith is the substance of what is hoped for.

Eternal life is eternal life. It is to be, without end. Life in himself/one's self.

Before time began, God who cannot lie made a promise. The promise wasn't eternal life. The promise was the HOPE OF eteranl life.

Who was the promise made for? No one had even been created. Who was the promise made for? Who, by faith, would have need for a promise such as that? Would it be the righteousness of God to extend eternal life to a sinful, degenerate, corruptible man or would it be the righteousness of God to give eternal life to one who was sinless, without spot or blemish, HOLY, yet took upon himself the sin of the world and DIED with only HOPE of by promise?

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Was the promise made for the first man Adam or was the promise made for the last Adam?

For whom was it ordained before the foundation of the world that his blood would be shed, slain?

Faith was the death of Jesus of Nazareth, the only begotten Son of God.

Was it not through the faith of Jesus that the grace of God came bringing the eternal life by which we also might be given eternal life?

Before the faith came, the death of Jesus, all were under the law that is the soul that sinneth it shall die but after the faith came, the death of Jesus that briought the grace of God his Father, that is the resurrection we who are put in Christ by the gift of the Holy Spirit are no longer under the law, the death penalty but are under grace, under the life found in Jesus.

ewq1938
Nov 11th 2012, 11:29 PM
The promise wasn't eternal life. The promise was the HOPE OF eteranl life.

Not according to this:





1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

We are PROMISED eternal life in the WORLD TO COME.

percho
Nov 12th 2012, 02:50 AM
Not according to this:

I agree with you. We receive it through Jesus Christ. Rom 6:23

We receive it through a promise made before time began for the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God's legacy
Nov 12th 2012, 05:01 PM
I am certain the judgement of God is according to the truth that all men are born with and to the degree they know and understand it. What I would like you to tell me is when this time you mention happens? The earthly reign is after the first resurrection. Do you think it is on the New earth, after death and hell are cast into the lake of fire? What scriptural support would you suggest I read?

The majority of mankind have died without ever knowing or learning the way to eternal life-they will have their 1st chance- 1Tim 2:4.

the 1,000 year period consist of the saints raised from the dead and those in Christ that were still alive and were transformed into spirit ruling with Jesus over the remaining people that are left alive after all the tribulation and return of Jesus. Rev 20;4

The rest of the dead live not until after the 1,000 year period. Rev 20:5
It might seem that verse 5 is out of order -the 1st sentence in verse 5 is inserted as a parenthetical clarification. The second sentence of verse 5 is referring to the events of verse 4.

The rest of the dead are brought to physical life and are given a certain amount of time to learn God's word and then will be judged out of those things written in the books (the books of the Bible)according to their works- Rev 20:12
God will be using the same standard as He judges us and other people at any other time-Rom 2:12-13
Those that were successful were written in the book of life, those that were not were cast into the lake of fire-Rev 20:15.

The second resurrection happens before the New Earth and New Jerusalem arrives- which only will consist of spiritual beings because our enemy " death "no longer exists.1 Cor 15:24 -26
Rev 21 and 22 show there will only be immortal beings in the Kingdom of God on earth-just as God planned.

percho
Nov 12th 2012, 11:19 PM
The majority of mankind have died without ever knowing or learning the way to eternal life-they will have their 1st chance- 1Tim 2:4.

the 1,000 year period consist of the saints raised from the dead and those in Christ that were still alive and were transformed into spirit ruling with Jesus over the remaining people that are left alive after all the tribulation and return of Jesus. Rev 20;4

The rest of the dead live not until after the 1,000 year period. Rev 20:5
It might seem that verse 5 is out of order -the 1st sentence in verse 5 is inserted as a parenthetical clarification. The second sentence of verse 5 is referring to the events of verse 4.

The rest of the dead are brought to physical life and are given a certain amount of time to learn God's word and then will be judged out of those things written in the books (the books of the Bible)according to their works- Rev 20:12
God will be using the same standard as He judges us and other people at any other time-Rom 2:12-13
Those that were successful were written in the book of life, those that were not were cast into the lake of fire-Rev 20:15.

The second resurrection happens before the New Earth and New Jerusalem arrives- which only will consist of spiritual beings because our enemy " death "no longer exists.1 Cor 15:24 -26
Rev 21 and 22 show there will only be immortal beings in the Kingdom of God on earth-just as God planned.


What % of mankind incuding those who have heard the, "Gospel," from 1 AD to November 12, 2012 AD fall under the following? Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Is the following absoutely necessery? Rev. 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Why was Paul/Saul ignorant in unbelief until Jesus called him on the road to Damascus?

Did Paul, Paul himself suddenly begin to believe, or did Jesus call him unto belief?

As the sheet containing the unclean things were lowered before Peter to teach him something, why was Paul struck blind for three days when Jesus called him?

To show him he had been blind in unbelief, maybe? Did God remove his blindness? That is his Understanding?


I agree with you. God knows what God is doing.

God's legacy
Nov 13th 2012, 05:05 AM
What % of mankind incuding those who have heard the, "Gospel," from 1 AD to November 12, 2012 AD fall under the following? Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Is the following absoutely necessery? Rev. 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Why was Paul/Saul ignorant in unbelief until Jesus called him on the road to Damascus?

Did Paul, Paul himself suddenly begin to believe, or did Jesus call him unto belief?

As the sheet containing the unclean things were lowered before Peter to teach him something, why was Paul struck blind for three days when Jesus called him?

To show him he had been blind in unbelief, maybe? Did God remove his blindness? That is his Understanding?


I agree with you. God knows what God is doing.

100%-Believers are the primary target of satan
2Cor11:13-15
Mark4:15

Noeb
Nov 15th 2012, 12:48 AM
The majority of mankind have died without ever knowing or learning the way to eternal life-they will have their 1st chance- 1Tim 2:4.

the 1,000 year period consist of the saints raised from the dead and those in Christ that were still alive and were transformed into spirit ruling with Jesus over the remaining people that are left alive after all the tribulation and return of Jesus. Rev 20;4

The rest of the dead live not until after the 1,000 year period. Rev 20:5
It might seem that verse 5 is out of order -the 1st sentence in verse 5 is inserted as a parenthetical clarification. The second sentence of verse 5 is referring to the events of verse 4.

The rest of the dead are brought to physical life and are given a certain amount of time to learn God's word and then will be judged out of those things written in the books (the books of the Bible)according to their works- Rev 20:12
God will be using the same standard as He judges us and other people at any other time-Rom 2:12-13
Those that were successful were written in the book of life, those that were not were cast into the lake of fire-Rev 20:15.

The second resurrection happens before the New Earth and New Jerusalem arrives- which only will consist of spiritual beings because our enemy " death "no longer exists.1 Cor 15:24 -26
Rev 21 and 22 show there will only be immortal beings in the Kingdom of God on earth-just as God planned.So basically you think
-1000 years
-second resurrection
-those without a first chance, get their chance
-GWTJ

Correct?
It doesn't matter.......I think some get a chance during the 1000 years, which is not 1000 years but some period of time. Which would basically mean we agree on that aspect. I disagree with other aspects. I would say
-1000 years ---some without a first chance, get their chance
-second resurrection to the GWTJ

jesse
Nov 15th 2012, 05:33 AM
So basically you think
-1000 years
-second resurrection
-those without a first chance, get their chance
-GWTJ

Correct?
It doesn't matter.......I think some get a chance during the 1000 years, which is not 1000 years but some period of time. Which would basically mean we agree on that aspect. I disagree with other aspects. I would say
-1000 years ---some without a first chance, get their chance
-second resurrection to the GWTJ

You don't think the 1000 years is literal?

Noeb
Nov 15th 2012, 05:38 AM
You don't think the 1000 years is literal?Sure I do, I just think 1000 is an unspecified period of time.

jesse
Nov 15th 2012, 05:45 AM
Sure I do, I just think 1000 is an unspecified period of time.

Ha ha. You remind me of my dad.

ewq1938
Nov 15th 2012, 05:49 AM
Sure I do, I just think 1000 is an unspecified period of time.

Looks pretty specific to me. It says 1000, not "1000 or something"

Noeb
Nov 15th 2012, 02:52 PM
Could be. Doesn't matter. I lean towards the same usage found in Jude 1:14 and Revelation 5:11, but I haven't looked at the Greek because it's not important.

ewq1938
Nov 15th 2012, 10:49 PM
Could be. Doesn't matter. I lean towards the same usage found in Jude 1:14 and Revelation 5:11, but I haven't looked at the Greek because it's not important.

Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,


Original languages are always important.

One thousand is a specific number. "thousands" is not a specific number. "tens of thousands" is not specific.

The plural form can be an unspecific number but when an exact, non-plural number is used it is exact.

If I said I was gone on vacation for one week, that's exact. If I said i was gone for weeks, then I am not being exact.

Marc B
Nov 17th 2012, 04:26 PM
Could be. Doesn't matter. I lean towards the same usage found in Jude 1:14 and Revelation 5:11, but I haven't looked at the Greek because it's not important.

It matters very much. How can you fully understand God's master plan if you don't know the chronological sequences of events of times past and times to come? Especially the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord? Remember Jesus spoke of His return as a thief in the night to those who are unprepared. Rev 3:3, 1 Thess 5:1-4. We may not know the exact time of His return but we can certainly be watchful of the signs for it.

Noeb
Nov 17th 2012, 10:58 PM
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,


Original languages are always important.

One thousand is a specific number. "thousands" is not a specific number. "tens of thousands" is not specific.

The plural form can be an unspecific number but when an exact, non-plural number is used it is exact.

If I said I was gone on vacation for one week, that's exact. If I said i was gone for weeks, then I am not being exact.Makes sense. I'll look into that. Thanks!

Noeb
Nov 17th 2012, 11:00 PM
It matters very much. How can you fully understand God's master plan if you don't know the chronological sequences of events of times past and times to come?Who said they didn't know the chronological sequences? We were talking about the word thousand in a verse and whether is it literal or a period of time. That's all.