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ContractKeeper
Sep 25th 2012, 09:22 AM
Silence in the presence of sin

Greetings folks, I am concerned about this.
I have four questions on: 'Silence in the presence of sin' and am hoping you readers will share your thoughts here on these questions.

1, Is our silence in the presence of sin, is it actually condolence and passive support of that sin and do we make ourselves an accomplice to that sin when we keep silent in its presence ?

2, Are we denying the very light which follower's of Jesus Christ profess to walk in when we are silent in the presence of sin ?

3, Should we ignore sin among us for mercy and grace's sake, just to keep peace, or is our effort at keeping the peace actually accommodating, feeding and fostering that sin among us ?

4, Should we agree that it is a good tree when we see bad fruit produced by a self-professing good tree just because we enjoy that tree's shade ?


John 4:1 Worship in Spirit
God bless.

Walls
Sep 25th 2012, 12:13 PM
Silence in the presence of sin

Greetings folks, I am concerned about this.
I have four questions on: 'Silence in the presence of sin' and am hoping you readers will share your thoughts here on these questions.

1, Is our silence in the presence of sin, is it actually condolence and passive support of that sin and do we make ourselves an accomplice to that sin when we keep silent in its presence ?

2, Are we denying the very light which follower's of Jesus Christ profess to walk in when we are silent in the presence of sin ?

3, Should we ignore sin among us for mercy and grace's sake, just to keep peace, or is our effort at keeping the peace actually accommodating, feeding and fostering that sin among us ?

4, Should we agree that it is a good tree when we see bad fruit produced by a self-professing good tree just because we enjoy that tree's shade ?


John 4:1 Worship in Spirit
God bless.

The generality of your question presents problems to an answer. Who are the sinners? What is the severity of the sin? Who were the witnesses? And is it a mote in a brother's eye that we barely see because of the beam in our own?

If it concerns Church members we have instructions in scripture about washing one another's feet. We have instructions for offenses. The few reasons for ex-communication are laid out clearly.

If it concerns the world, we have no conjunction to interfere, but rather the opposite (1st Cor.5:12-13).

I understand the principle of being salt is just that - BEING. Salt is not a crusader. It is passive. Its presence just works to prevent corruption.

ContractKeeper
Sep 25th 2012, 06:14 PM
Hi Walls, thank you for your time and thoughts shared.

The generality of your question presents problems to an answer. Who are the sinners? When members of the body of Christ sin in the presence of other members of that body.
The subject or topic is "the salt of the earth", which I take to mean members of the body of Christ.
I hope that rids the generality of my question that seems to be an obstacle to share your thoughts further.



What is the severity of the sin?
For these questions the sin isn't any specific sin, the questions are posed toward any sin.
Speaking for myself and paraphrasing our new testament's voice on sin: "All sin leads to death" when or if they are allowed to nest or harbor in man's heart.
I do not see degrees to sin, I see only lesser and larger consequences or results to certain sins, but they all lead to death if not confessed and also turn away from. (confession and repentance).



Who were the witnesses? I did not equate this into my questions, but to answer who witnesses the sin in question: It would or could be both, either or witnessing said sin: members of the body of Christ who do confess Him,or those who do not yet confess that Jesus the Christ is Lord and King over all and the only High priest between His Father and those who believe in/on His Lamb's faith and righteousness by His live lived in flesh and His sacrifice finished.



If it concerns the world, we have no conjunction to interfere, but rather the opposite (1st Cor.5:12-13). God bless, followers of Jesus Christ are to be living examples of His faith and righteousness reflecting His light from high and very visible places, each of us are to go about this in any and every niche that He will provide for us to call or otherwise bring the lost into His light, that is the highest purpose Jesus commanded to those who will follow after Him.



I understand the principle of being salt is just that - BEING. Salt is not a crusader. It is passive. Its presence just works to prevent corruption.But does the salt remain silent/still/quiet in the presence of sin, and is if so will that silence be salt that loses it's practical applicable value to God, making itself worthy of nothing but to be cast down to to the ground/earth to preserve the existing paths of fallen humanity.



If it concerns Church members we have instructions in scripture about washing one another's feet. We have instructions for offenses. The few reasons for ex-communication are laid out clearly. Amen, God bless.



And is it a mote in a brother's eye that we barely see because of the beam in our own?Now this is the meat, God bless you !
Does our new testament communicate: "refrain from taking the splinter out of our neighbors eye" if/when we have a beam in our own eye or does it communicate that we should "refrain from acknowledging that there is a splinter in our neighbors eye", if/when we have a beam in our own eye ?

http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/copyChkboxOff.gifMat 7:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=7&v=3&t=KJV#comm/3)-5 <---link
3, And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4, Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye? 5, Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Speaking for myself: I see a huge difference between operating on an eye and acknowledging that an eye needs an operation. Thank you for sharing that, for this is the meat of my first four question...

1, Is our silence in the presence of sin, is it actually condolence and passive support of that sin and do we make ourselves an accomplice to that sin when we keep silent in its presence ?

2, Are we denying the very light which follower's of Jesus Christ profess to walk in when we are silent in the presence of sin ?

3, Should we ignore sin among us for mercy and grace's sake, just to keep peace, or is our effort at keeping the peace actually accommodating, feeding and fostering that sin among us ?

4, Should we agree that it is a good tree when we see bad fruit produced by a self-professing good tree just because we enjoy that tree's shade ?


John 4:1 Worship in Spirit
God bless.

Walls
Sep 27th 2012, 10:17 AM
OK ContractKeeper

The reference to salt is that we are the salt of the world. That is, we are to be an element preventing corruption in all areas of our lives, be it in the Church life or in our daily dealings with all men. But you have narrowed it down to the area of the Brethren so my quick (by no means exhaustive) research shows a principle. In all our dealing as salt in the Church life, God's aim is restoration. If you read the following you will see that we are to approach a sinning or errant brother or sister in humility, love and with the sure knowledge that we could be the next to fall;

Galatians 6:1, 1st Thessalonians 5:14, 2nd Thessalonians 3:15, Jude 1:20-23, James 5:19-20.

In the event that the errant brother/sister does not heed the admonishment we are to revert to;

2 Thessalonians 3:6.

What do you think?

ContractKeeper
Sep 27th 2012, 03:52 PM
OK ContractKeeper

The reference to salt is that we are the salt of the world. That is, we are to be an element preventing corruption in all areas of our lives, be it in the Church life or in our daily dealings with all men. But you have narrowed it down to the area of the Brethren so my quick (by no means exhaustive) research shows a principle. In all our dealing as salt in the Church life, God's aim is restoration. If you read the following you will see that we are to approach a sinning or errant brother or sister in humility, love and with the sure knowledge that we could be the next to fall;

Galatians 6:1, 1st Thessalonians 5:14, 2nd Thessalonians 3:15, Jude 1:20-23, James 5:19-20.

In the event that the errant brother/sister does not heed the admonishment we are to revert to;

2 Thessalonians 3:6.

What do you think?
Hi Walls,

Who can disagree that the reference to salt defines the church/body of Christ as that salt to the world by preserving it from God's just wrath until His Son Jesus Christ returns.
And who can disagree that the procedures for discipline inside the church is presented by Paul in: Galatians and Thessalonians, and I will add the Corinthians to your list also.

The follower's and disciples of Christ are the ones who are God's salt on the earth after His Son returned to the throne in heaven at God the Father's right hand.
So, I am not quite following your suggestion that I am "narrowing it down" as to the "salt's" direct application in or out of the body of Christ.

But anyway, I presented a question to you in my reply but you in return pose a question to me with out answering my question...
Although I am interested in answering your last question and will, but only after you answer the question I posed toward your first reply to me here, in that order.

The question I posed to your first reply here:
Does our new testament communicate in http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/copyChkboxOff.gifMat 7:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=7&v=3&t=KJV#comm/3): that Follower's of Christ should:
Refrain from taking the splinter out of our neighbors eye, when we have a beam in our own eye.
(or) does it communicate that we should refrain from acknowledging that there is a splinter in our neighbors eye, when we have a beam in our own eye.
(or) does it communicate both ?

Speaking for myself: I see a huge difference between operating on an eye and acknowledging that an eye needs an operation. Thank you for your time.


John 4:1 Worship in Spirit.
God bless.

salesman
Sep 27th 2012, 04:29 PM
Silence in the presence of sin

Greetings folks, I am concerned about this.
I have four questions on: 'Silence in the presence of sin' and am hoping you readers will share your thoughts here on these questions.

1, Is our silence in the presence of sin, is it actually condolence and passive support of that sin and do we make ourselves an accomplice to that sin when we keep silent in its presence ?

2, Are we denying the very light which follower's of Jesus Christ profess to walk in when we are silent in the presence of sin ?

3, Should we ignore sin among us for mercy and grace's sake, just to keep peace, or is our effort at keeping the peace actually accommodating, feeding and fostering that sin among us ?

4, Should we agree that it is a good tree when we see bad fruit produced by a self-professing good tree just because we enjoy that tree's shade ?


John 4:1 Worship in Spirit
God bless.

Interesting. So, are we thinking about sin in the world or sin in the church? Because our response should be very different. Jesus and the apostles did not confront sin harshly. They tended to show love and live lives that were examples of the Christian lifestyle. However, as the church was established we see that correct behavior is required IN the church.
You cannot expect the world to live their lives in a holy manner when they are not holy, but you can expect those who are calling themselves the members of the body of Christ to act responsibly. If they do not we are given guidelines to correct and end the poor behavior. Refusal to curtail the sinful lifestyle can lead to excommunication and a shunning of the sinner by the church body.

We cannot shun the sinner in the world or the salt cannot do its work. We cannot condone sin in the church or the salt will lose its saltiness and become just like the world.

ContractKeeper
Sep 27th 2012, 05:26 PM
Interesting. So, are we thinking about sin in the world or sin in the church? Because our response should be very different. Jesus and the apostles did not confront sin harshly. They tended to show love and live lives that were examples of the Christian lifestyle. However, as the church was established we see that correct behavior is required IN the church.
You cannot expect the world to live their lives in a holy manner when they are not holy, but you can expect those who are calling themselves the members of the body of Christ to act responsibly. If they do not we are given guidelines to correct and end the poor behavior. Refusal to curtail the sinful lifestyle can lead to excommunication and a shunning of the sinner by the church body. Yes my questions on tolerating or accommodating or keeping silent in the presence of sins are directed toward inside the body of Christ/the church.

And, I totally agree that we are to be a living breathing, walking, talking, ever giving, ever forgiving, ever tolerating and merciful personal example of Christ's life in our reactions, communications and behaviors toward the world, "the world" out side of the body of Christ, not imposing church discipline or correction upon them, but mercy.




We cannot shun the sinner in the world or the salt cannot do its work. We cannot condone sin in the church or the salt will lose its saltiness and become just like the world.Amen ! :pp

But, if we keep silent and or tolerate sin practiced by members of the body of Christ among us, then I propose that we are partakers of that same sin by our accommodating it, and then are just as guilty as the one who practices that sin and still professes to be a follower or disciple of Christ, part of His body/the church.

Our silence in the presence of sin among us in His body/the church causes our-person's "salt to loose it's savor", and then we are counted useless for God to use for His glory, and we become worth nothing to Him but to be cast to the ground to preserve the wide paths of fallen humanity (the world's paths and ways).


John 4:1 Worship in Spirit.
God bless.

Vhayes
Sep 27th 2012, 06:00 PM
Salt is an amazing mineral. Used lightly, it enhances the flavor of things, which is what I believe we are to do while "in" the world. Unbelievers should be able to look at believers/listen to believers and see something richer and more "flavorful" (think love, joy, peace)

Used on an open cut, salt stings. But it also stops the blood flow, which is the point. It may hurt a bit but if it stops the bleeding in a believers life and turns them back so their focus is on Jesus, then the sting was worth the prevention of a extreme blood loss.

Used in larger quantities, salt is a preservative. We should add our "salt" together to preserve the love of the brethren when we join together in worship of the King.

Walls
Sep 27th 2012, 07:33 PM
Hi Walls,

Who can disagree that the reference to salt defines the church/body of Christ as that salt to the world by preserving it from God's just wrath until His Son Jesus Christ returns.
And who can disagree that the procedures for discipline inside the church is presented by Paul in: Galatians and Thessalonians, and I will add the Corinthians to your list also.

The follower's and disciples of Christ are the ones who are God's salt on the earth after His Son returned to the throne in heaven at God the Father's right hand.
So, I am not quite following your suggestion that I am "narrowing it down" as to the "salt's" direct application in or out of the body of Christ.

But anyway, I presented a question to you in my reply but you in return pose a question to me with out answering my question...
Although I am interested in answering your last question and will, but only after you answer the question I posed toward your first reply to me here, in that order.

The question I posed to your first reply here:
Does our new testament communicate in http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/copyChkboxOff.gifMat 7:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=7&v=3&t=KJV#comm/3): that Follower's of Christ should:
Refrain from taking the splinter out of our neighbors eye, when we have a beam in our own eye.
(or) does it communicate that we should refrain from acknowledging that there is a splinter in our neighbors eye, when we have a beam in our own eye.
(or) does it communicate both ?

Speaking for myself: I see a huge difference between operating on an eye and acknowledging that an eye needs an operation. Thank you for your time.


John 4:1 Worship in Spirit.
God bless.

I'm sorry to have missed your question. The validity of your question is certainly in line with what you said as the reference to the mote and the beam concern "your brother's eye." Let me try to answer coherently here.

The gospel of Matthew never mentions rebirth. But it is strongly implied. The so-called "sermon on the mount" is actually a teaching only for Christians for, although a multitude heard the teaching of our Lord Jesus, the grammar of Matthew chapter 5 verse 1 indicates that He only taught his disciples. The "them" must be His disciples according to normal usage of both the Greek and the English. Then notice that our Lord Jesus always talks of "my Father", "our Father" and "your Father". You can only call someone a "father" if you have been born from him. So the rebirth is implied and applied in our Lord's teaching. This is further born out by the reference in our verses under discussion by the use of the word "brother." One is only a brother to another if they have the same Father. Finally, those most difficult and almost impossible requirements of our Lord's teaching are not addressed to the flesh. Because of Christ's life dwelling in new born Christian (disciple) our Lord Jesus assumes that what is taught later in Romans Chapter 8 is already in effect in the new born believer. Your flesh is not asked to turn the other cheek. Christ's life in you is asked to do it. All that is asked of you is to submit to this life.

This said, my answer to the verses you have questioned me about, is that it is not whether we should ignore the mote in a "brother's" eye, but that we are to acknowledge that at the time of observing the mote in the brother's eye that we surely have a beam in our own eye. It is not primarily a case of pointing out, or not pointing out the mote, but a question of judging a brother for faults. It is very easy among fallen men to find fault. It is even easier among Christians for a higher standard is applied. So the act of judging a brother is to be avoided. This is the context of 7:1 as i read it.

The verses I supplied in my previous answer all concern this other brother's failures, and there we admonished to save him from further backsliding or sin. But the question is, "how are we to do it, knowing our own frailty?" I believe that we can connect Matthew 7:1-5 with Galatians 6:1-2. We are not to ignore the mote, but we are to approach the brother with the sure knowledge that we are most probably weaker and more guilty that he, or at least that we are likely to stumble ourselves in the next short while. Even if we get to the point of applying 2nd Thessalonians 3:6-15 it is with a view to recover our brother. If he becomes "ashamed" the chances are that he will repent.

To your last statement I believe that nothing authorizes us to "operate" on another brother. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. If a brother is in the process of one of the sins worthy of excommunication, we are not to try and salvage him. He must be cut off from the Body for it's own protection (a little leaven leavens the whole lump). This is the duty of the whole Church. The restoration of a wayward brother is solely the work of the Holy Spirit. We are not the Savior. One greater than us has been appointed this task.

I hope that I have answered you adequately.

ContractKeeper
Sep 27th 2012, 08:41 PM
Salt is an amazing mineral. Used lightly, it enhances the flavor of things, which is what I believe we are to do while "in" the world. Unbelievers should be able to look at believers/listen to believers and see something richer and more "flavorful" (think love, joy, peace)

Used on an open cut, salt stings. But it also stops the blood flow, which is the point. It may hurt a bit but if it stops the bleeding in a believers life and turns them back so their focus is on Jesus, then the sting was worth the prevention of a extreme blood loss.

Used in larger quantities, salt is a preservative. We should add our "salt" together to preserve the love of the brethren when we join together in worship of the King.
Awesome ! :pp
Great post Vhayes, but it seems every reply but one on this thread so far distracts from my questions that have been posed relating to "salt losing it's savor"...

Is our silence in the presence of sin among us in the church causing our-person's "salt"to loose it's savor.
And aren't we counted useless for God to use for His glory when we remain silent to sin in the church, and don't we become worth nothing to Him but to be cast to the ground to only preserve the wide paths of fallen humanity, the world's paths and ways ?


John 4:1 Worship in Spirit.
God bless.

Vhayes
Sep 27th 2012, 08:55 PM
Awesome ! :pp
Great post Vhayes, but it seems every reply but one on this thread so far distracts from my questions that have been posed relating to "salt losing it's savor"...

Is our silence in the presence of sin among us in the church causing our-person's "salt"to loose it's savor.
And aren't we counted useless for God to use for His glory when we remain silent to sin in the church, and don't we become worth nothing to Him but to be cast to the ground to only preserve the wide paths of fallen humanity, the world's paths and ways ?


John 4:1 Worship in Spirit.
God bless.
In my opinion, yes. The church has lost it's clout and it's position of pre-eminence on society because Christ's beloved now looks exactly like the world.

ContractKeeper
Sep 27th 2012, 08:56 PM
I'm sorry to have missed your question. The validity of your question is certainly in line with what you said as the reference to the mote and the beam concern "your brother's eye." Let me try to answer coherently here.

The gospel of Matthew never mentions rebirth. But it is strongly implied. The so-called "sermon on the mount" is actually a teaching only for Christians for, although a multitude heard the teaching of our Lord Jesus, the grammar of Matthew chapter 5 verse 1 indicates that He only taught his disciples. The "them" must be His disciples according to normal usage of both the Greek and the English. Then notice that our Lord Jesus always talks of "my Father", "our Father" and "your Father". You can only call someone a "father" if you have been born from him. So the rebirth is implied and applied in our Lord's teaching. This is further born out by the reference in our verses under discussion by the use of the word "brother." One is only a brother to another if they have the same Father. Finally, those most difficult and almost impossible requirements of our Lord's teaching are not addressed to the flesh. Because of Christ's life dwelling in new born Christian (disciple) our Lord Jesus assumes that what is taught later in Romans Chapter 8 is already in effect in the new born believer. Your flesh is not asked to turn the other cheek. Christ's life in you is asked to do it. All that is asked of you is to submit to this life.

This said, my answer to the verses you have questioned me about, is that it is not whether we should ignore the mote in a "brother's" eye, but that we are to acknowledge that at the time of observing the mote in the brother's eye that we surely have a beam in our own eye. It is not primarily a case of pointing out, or not pointing out the mote, but a question of judging a brother for faults. It is very easy among fallen men to find fault. It is even easier among Christians for a higher standard is applied. So the act of judging a brother is to be avoided. This is the context of 7:1 as i read it.

The verses I supplied in my previous answer all concern this other brother's failures, and there we admonished to save him from further backsliding or sin. But the question is, "how are we to do it, knowing our own frailty?" I believe that we can connect Matthew 7:1-5 with Galatians 6:1-2. We are not to ignore the mote, but we are to approach the brother with the sure knowledge that we are most probably weaker and more guilty that he, or at least that we are likely to stumble ourselves in the next short while. Even if we get to the point of applying 2nd Thessalonians 3:6-15 it is with a view to recover our brother. If he becomes "ashamed" the chances are that he will repent.

To your last statement I believe that nothing authorizes us to "operate" on another brother. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. If a brother is in the process of one of the sins worthy of excommunication, we are not to try and salvage him. He must be cut off from the Body for it's own protection (a little leaven leavens the whole lump). This is the duty of the whole Church. The restoration of a wayward brother is solely the work of the Holy Spirit. We are not the Savior. One greater than us has been appointed this task.

I hope that I have answered you adequately. I would run out of breath giving the amen's and so it is's, to your answer. So, Amen and so it is !
But again: it seems every reply but one on this thread so far distracts from my questions that have been posed relating to "salt losing it's savor"...

Please allow me to redirect the conversation back to the thread's title and purpose:

When salt has lost it's savor
Is our silence in the presence of sin among us in the church causing our-person's "salt"to loose it's savor.
And aren't we counted useless for God to use for His glory when we remain silent to sin in the church, and don't we become worth nothing to Him but to be cast to the ground to only preserve the wide paths of fallen humanity, the world's paths and ways when we have lost our salt's savor ?

1, Is our silence in the presence of sin, is it actually condolence and passive support of that sin and do we make ourselves an accomplice to that sin when we keep silent in its presence.
2, Are we denying the very light which follower's of Jesus Christ profess to walk in when we are silent in the presence of sin.
3, Should we ignore sin among us for mercy and grace's sake, just to keep peace, or is our effort at keeping the peace actually accommodating, feeding and fostering that sin among us.
4, Should we agree that it is a good tree when we see bad fruit produced by a self-professing good tree just because we enjoy that tree's shade.






In the event that the errant brother/sister does not heed the admonishment we are to revert to;

2 Thessalonians 3:6.

What do you think?
I could not agree with you more, that is the prescribed procedure authored by God's Spirit through our earliest church father's as established doctrine for discipline within the church.


John 4:1 Worship in Spirit.
God bless.

ContractKeeper
Sep 27th 2012, 09:23 PM
In my opinion, yes. The church has lost it's clout and it's position of pre-eminence on society because Christ's beloved now looks exactly like the world.
Well okay I see that too, and am very ashamed for it.

But I would like to bring it down to an individual and personal level for accountability, the church is not held responsible for my "salt" losing it's savor... I am responsible and accountable for the salt allotted me by His mercy.

Should or shouldn't we who keep our eyes open and speak boldly for Him yell from roof-tops a warning to all who profess Him as Lord, King and Savor:
Jesus Christ will keep His name glorified and if any of us keep besmirching His name by going about professing to be a "Christian", "follower of Christ" or "His disciple" but yet keep accommodating or even facilitating sin by our indifferent silence or turning a blind blind eye to sin practiced within His body/the church.
Shouldn't we who see this be proclaiming also that He will put this self-condoned sin in His body/the church to a deadly end, just to keep His own name Holy, keeping His own name a shining unblemished beacon of light to the lost in the 'world' who do not profess Him as Lord !
Or do we have better and more profitable things to do than keeping His beacon to the fallen world shiny and spotless ?
Silence is deadly folks !


John 4:1 Worship in Spirit.
God bless.