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God's legacy
Oct 17th 2012, 04:47 AM
Did Christ come as a mediator of a New Covenant abolishing God's Law?
What does Galatians 2:16 mean when it says " For by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified"
Some say that the Law was " nailed to the cross " and we are now saved by grace.
As far as the ten commandments are concerned which ones can we ignore as if they were not in effect anymore? Or is that not the case, and we are required as true Christians to keep the original ten commandments that were given to Moses on Mt. Sinai?
What say you?

Withoutfcf
Oct 17th 2012, 05:01 AM
Only commandment I think matters now is

And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Deuteronomy 6:5

little watchman
Oct 17th 2012, 05:35 AM
That's a can and a half of worms. The short answer is no, but the Decalogue (along with the rest of the Law) still reflects the character of God, and the Holy Spirit will convict the conscience of the Christian who behaves contrary to His character. "In force" frames the question in legal terms rather than relationship-oriented terms: "How much can I get away with?" rather than "How can I please the lover of my soul?"

I think Servant89 provided a very interesting list of New Testament restatements of the Ten Commandments. (Anyone remember Servant89? Dunno what happened to him.) Here it is:

Commandment # 1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Mark 12:29,32; Rom 3:30; 1The 1:9; 1Cor 8:4,6; Gal 3:20; Eph 4:6; 1Tim 2:5; James 2:19. Love the Lord your God (Mat 22:39; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27; 2Ti 3:4; Luke 11:42).

Commandment # 2: Stay away from idols. Acts 15:20,29; Eph 5:5; 1Cor 5:11; 1Th 1:9; Acts 17:16; Acts 21:25; 1Cor 6:9; 1Pe 4:3-4; 1Cor 10:7,14; 1John 5:21; Rev 2:14,20; Rev 9:20; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 3: Do not take the name of the Lord in vain. Rom 2:24; 1Tim 6:1; Rev 16:9; Rev 13:6; Mat 12:31; Rev 16:9; James 2:7.

Commandment # 4: NOT ONE VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Commadment # 5: Honor your father and mother. Rom 1:30; 2Tim 3:2; Mat 19:19; Luke 18:20; Mat 15:4; Mark 10:19; Eph 6:2; Mark 7:10.

Commandment # 6: Do not kill. Mark 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; Rom 1:29; Gal 5:21; 1Tim 1:9; 1Pe 4:15; 1John 3:15; Rev 9:21; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commadment # 7: Do not comit adultery. Mar 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 16:18; Luke 18:20; Heb 13:4; Mat 5:27; Gal 5:19; Mat 15:19-20; Mark 7:121; Mark 10:11-12; Rom 13:9; 1Cor 6:9.

Commandment # 8: Do not steal. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; Rom 2:21; 1Cor 6:9-10; Eph 4:28; 1Pe 4:15.

Commandment # 9. Do not lie. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; John 8:44; Acts 5:3; Col 3:9; Rev 21:27; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 10. Do not covet. Eph 5:3,5; Mark 7:22-23; 2Pe 2:14; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; Luke 12:15; 1Cor 5:11; 1Tim 6:10; 1Tim 3:2; Rom 1:29; Rom 7:7; Col 3:5-6.

Berean11
Oct 17th 2012, 06:07 AM
Nice list. I think it is still necessary for our understanding of what God calls sin. As written in Romans-

Rom 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
Rom 7:7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

Rom 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Rom 7:13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

A guide to what is sin in God's eyes. When we are born we are under the law....it's curse and sentence of death. It is our teacher and jail warden. Then....Jesus.
Not to be discarded. Now, it pertains to wisdom and discernment. And gratitude on my part because I could never keep this 'law' perfectly. Jesus did it for me. Amen and amen. Peace, Berean11

Walls
Oct 17th 2012, 07:12 AM
The Law of Moses was to achieve three goals;

Show God's unalterable righteous nature
Have a people on earth that lived by this principle of unbending righteousness as a testimony of the living God
To equip a people on this earth for a Holy God to dwell WITH them without being offended


In Christ the following were achieved;

God's unbending and unalterable righteousness is shown in the awful punishment which landed on our Lord Jesus
Christ's faultless and flawless keeping of the Law is imputed to men who believe in, and confess, Him
God now dwells IN the Christian and the flesh is counted to have been crucified with Christ


Thus the totality of the Law, including the Ten Commandments, is void for the Christian. However, the Christian is subject to another Law - the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Rom.8:2). This Law is the inward working and conviction of the Holy Spirit of God's intrinsic nature, and will prompt the Christian to live a life according to Christ's nature. The many verses above in that excellent list from little watchman testify to the nature of Christ. The Holy Spirit does not exact retribution for disobedience immediately like the Law of Moses, but discipline will be forthcoming, and an account of disobedience before the judgment seat of Christ will bring a terrible loss to the disobedient Christian in the next age. God's justice on breaking the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is not done away with as some Christians think. It is only deferred.

Tony Cross
Oct 17th 2012, 07:32 AM
Did Christ come as a mediator of a New Covenant abolishing God's Law?
What does Galatians 2:16 mean when it says " For by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified"
Some say that the Law was " nailed to the cross " and we are now saved by grace.
As far as the ten commandments are concerned which ones can we ignore as if they were not in effect anymore? Or is that not the case, and we are required as true Christians to keep the original ten commandments that were given to Moses on Mt. Sinai?
What say you?

Your questions in order as presented:

Yes

Gal. 2:16 indicates, as do other scriptures, that we cannot be justified by the old law, because Christ nailed it to the cross. (COL 2:14).

Correct

The only commandment that was not carried over to the law of Christ was the command to observe the sabbath.

Boo
Oct 17th 2012, 09:35 AM
Your questions in order as presented:

Yes

Gal. 2:16 indicates, as do other scriptures, that we cannot be justified by the old law, because Christ nailed it to the cross. (COL 2:14).

Correct

The only commandment that was not carried over to the law of Christ was the command to observe the sabbath.

True, as far as the 7fth day of the week being the sabbath. We are told that the day we select is not important.

God's legacy
Oct 17th 2012, 02:29 PM
That's a can and a half of worms. The short answer is no, but the Decalogue (along with the rest of the Law) still reflects the character of God, and the Holy Spirit will convict the conscience of the Christian who behaves contrary to His character. "In force" frames the question in legal terms rather than relationship-oriented terms: "How much can I get away with?" rather than "How can I please the lover of my soul?"

I think Servant89 provided a very interesting list of New Testament restatements of the Ten Commandments. (Anyone remember Servant89? Dunno what happened to him.) Here it is:

Commandment # 1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Mark 12:29,32; Rom 3:30; 1The 1:9; 1Cor 8:4,6; Gal 3:20; Eph 4:6; 1Tim 2:5; James 2:19. Love the Lord your God (Mat 22:39; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27; 2Ti 3:4; Luke 11:42).

Commandment # 2: Stay away from idols. Acts 15:20,29; Eph 5:5; 1Cor 5:11; 1Th 1:9; Acts 17:16; Acts 21:25; 1Cor 6:9; 1Pe 4:3-4; 1Cor 10:7,14; 1John 5:21; Rev 2:14,20; Rev 9:20; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 3: Do not take the name of the Lord in vain. Rom 2:24; 1Tim 6:1; Rev 16:9; Rev 13:6; Mat 12:31; Rev 16:9; James 2:7.

Commandment # 4: NOT ONE VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Commadment # 5: Honor your father and mother. Rom 1:30; 2Tim 3:2; Mat 19:19; Luke 18:20; Mat 15:4; Mark 10:19; Eph 6:2; Mark 7:10.

Commandment # 6: Do not kill. Mark 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; Rom 1:29; Gal 5:21; 1Tim 1:9; 1Pe 4:15; 1John 3:15; Rev 9:21; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commadment # 7: Do not comit adultery. Mar 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 16:18; Luke 18:20; Heb 13:4; Mat 5:27; Gal 5:19; Mat 15:19-20; Mark 7:121; Mark 10:11-12; Rom 13:9; 1Cor 6:9.

Commandment # 8: Do not steal. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; Rom 2:21; 1Cor 6:9-10; Eph 4:28; 1Pe 4:15.

Commandment # 9. Do not lie. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; John 8:44; Acts 5:3; Col 3:9; Rev 21:27; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 10. Do not covet. Eph 5:3,5; Mark 7:22-23; 2Pe 2:14; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; Luke 12:15; 1Cor 5:11; 1Tim 6:10; 1Tim 3:2; Rom 1:29; Rom 7:7; Col 3:5-6.

Re: Commandment # 4- In Hebrews 4:8-11 is Paul not talking about the seventh day Sabbath-rest and our responsibility not to disobey.it?
Wasn't it Jesus's practice to keep the Sabbath and to attend services on that day - Luke 4:16
Didn't Paul personally keep the Sabbaths - Acts 17:2
Didn't Paul teach the gentiles to keep the Sabbath also - Acts 13:42-44
Jesus said in Matt 19:17-" If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
When was the 4th commandment deleted, if that is the case?
When Jesus said I give you a new commandment(or order)to love one another as I have loved you did that replace the 10 commandments even though He said " Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the prophets " Matt 5:17
And in verse 18-" not one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, and in verse 19, we see whoever breaks one of these least commandments shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven.
By what authority in the bible do we think the 4th commandment does not apply today even though early Christians observed it up to 300 years after the death and resurrection of Christ?

WITDNM
Oct 17th 2012, 03:07 PM
Re: Commandment # 4- In Hebrews 4:8-11 is Paul not talking about the seventh day Sabbath-rest and our responsibility not to disobey.it?

This is talking about the eternal rest promised to the faithful.


Wasn't it Jesus's practice to keep the Sabbath and to attend services on that day - Luke 4:16

Yes, Jesus lived under the law of Moses.


Didn't Paul personally keep the Sabbaths - Acts 17:2

Paul used the Sabbath day synagogue meetings as an opportunity to preach the gospel.


Didn't Paul teach the gentiles to keep the Sabbath also - Acts 13:42-44

No.


Jesus said in Matt 19:17-" If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Jesus lived under the law of Moses which included the 10 Commandments and a bunch of other commandments.


When was the 4th commandment deleted, if that is the case?

It was nailed to the cross with the rest of the Law of Moses.


When Jesus said I give you a new commandment(or order)to love one another as I have loved you did that replace the 10 commandments even though He said " Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the prophets " Matt 5:17
And in verse 18-" not one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, and in verse 19, we see whoever breaks one of these least commandments shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven.

Jesus fulfilled the law and nailed it to his cross. Jesus could not be a priest under the law of Moses. It had to be changed Hebrews 7:12


By what authority in the bible do we think the 4th commandment does not apply today even though early Christians observed it up to 300 years after the death and resurrection of Christ?

By Jesus' authority.

little watchman
Oct 17th 2012, 03:29 PM
Re: Commandment # 4- In Hebrews 4:8-11 is Paul not talking about the seventh day Sabbath-rest and our responsibility not to disobey.it?
Wasn't it Jesus's practice to keep the Sabbath and to attend services on that day - Luke 4:16
Didn't Paul personally keep the Sabbaths - Acts 17:2
Didn't Paul teach the gentiles to keep the Sabbath also - Acts 13:42-44
Jesus said in Matt 19:17-" If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
When was the 4th commandment deleted, if that is the case?
When Jesus said I give you a new commandment(or order)to love one another as I have loved you did that replace the 10 commandments even though He said " Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the prophets " Matt 5:17
And in verse 18-" not one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, and in verse 19, we see whoever breaks one of these least commandments shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven.
By what authority in the bible do we think the 4th commandment does not apply today even though early Christians observed it up to 300 years after the death and resurrection of Christ?

I'm not sure I have time right now to address all of your arguments, which are familiar to me from my time in the Seventh-day Adventist church. The Sabbath is a beautiful thing, a time of rest and refreshment. If you're one of the rare people in the West who works seven days a week, you should pause and consider that you were not designed to work nonstop and you're not trusting God to provide for you by ceasing from your efforts. The Sabbath was the seal of the covenant with Israel given through Moses, and it set Israel apart as the people who could trust God to provide for them, even when they stopped working.

I want to look at Hebrews 4:8-11: For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. For he who has entered into His rest has himself also rested from his works as God did from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter into that rest, that no one fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Whatever "rest" this is was not provided by Moses, even though Moses received the Law and the Sabbath. This "rest" was instead expected by Israel to be found in the Promised Land, through Joshua. But the children of Israel would not cease from their efforts, saying that they could not take Canaan because it was a land of giants. Joshua spoke of another day of rest, and that day is today: again He designates a certain day...Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts (Heb 4:7). The day of rest has come today to all who rest in Christ, demonstrating faith in him.

Also look at another passage you mentioned, Matthew 19:17: So He said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to Him, Which? Jesus said, You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and your mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. No mention of the Sabbath here, so it is doesn't support your case. It probably doesn't support mine, either...

The early Christians did not observe the Sabbath for 300 years, except perhaps Judaising sects. Paul criticized the Judaizers for burdening Gentile believers with Jewish traditions, both because those traditions were consummated in Jesus Christ and because Christ broke down the dividing wall between Jews and Gentiles.

But now, knowing God, or rather being known by God, how is it that you turn again to the feeble and worthless principles, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored among you in vain. (Gal 4:9-11)

Here are more thoughts on whether the Sabbath is still required for Christians by Justin Taylor. (And I could reference many other studies on the subject.) http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2010/10/14/schreiner-qa-is-the-sabbath-still-required-for-christians/

BroRog
Oct 17th 2012, 03:59 PM
What does Galatians 2:16 mean when it says " For by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified"Let's take the commandment, "Thou shalt not murder." Paul agrees with the commandment, that we should not murder. However, he points out that a man can't seek justification from God by simply avoiding murder.


Some say that the Law was " nailed to the cross " and we are now saved by grace.The law wasn't nailed to the cross. There was an ordinance in Jerusalem that kept Jews and Gentiles separated. THAT ordinance was nailed to the cross in Christ because Christ unites both Jew and Gentile into a new category of human being, "Christian." We both have access to God through the Holy Spirit.


As far as the ten commandments are concerned which ones can we ignore as if they were not in effect anymore?They are still in effect and we can not ignore them.


Or is that not the case, and we are required as true Christians to keep the original ten commandments that were given to Moses on Mt. Sinai?While it is true that Moses gave Israel God's Ten Commandments at Mt. Sinai, the moral vision behind these commandments was always true, even before Mt. Sinai. It has always been wrong to murder. There was never a time in history when murder was okay. What Moses did, at the direction of God, was codify God's moral vision into the law of the land for Israel. Many of the nations on earth, even today, continue to give their laws a moral center.

John 8:32
Oct 17th 2012, 04:09 PM
This is talking about the eternal rest promised to the faithful.

Nope, not verse 9... the word is Sabbatismos and means a keeping of the Sabbath.

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Notice in verse 5 Paul refers to the saventh day Sabbath as the rest?


Originally Posted by God's legacy

By what authority in the bible do we think the 4th commandment does not apply today even though early Christians observed it up to 300 years after the death and resurrection of Christ?


By Jesus' authority.

Scripture please. You'll find that cahnge in the council of Nicea 325 AD

Tony Cross
Oct 17th 2012, 09:36 PM
True, as far as the 7fth day of the week being the sabbath. We are told that the day we select is not important.

Acts 20:7, I Cor. 16-2. They met on the first day of the week.

God's legacy
Oct 17th 2012, 10:31 PM
Acts 20:7, I Cor. 16-2. They met on the first day of the week.

In Acts 20:7-the first day of the week began at sunset on Saturday evening in the Bible.
Breaking bread can mean eating a meal together. Paul fellowshipped and preaching until midnight Saturday evening ready to depart on the following morning which would have been Sunday the 1st day of the week daylight time. Paul walked almost 20 miles on that day-it hardly seems appropriate for a day of worship and rest if Sunday was the Lord's day.
1Cor 16:2 doesn't seem to refer to any religious ceremony just a collection for the travelling saints which was requested earlier to provide for the work.

ewq1938
Oct 18th 2012, 03:00 AM
In Acts 20:7-the first day of the week began at sunset on Saturday evening in the Bible.

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

So the bible sates they met on the 1st day, which is a Sunday. But you say they met on the 7th day and departed on the 1st day. Clearly one of those views is incorrect.


Paul fellowshipped and preaching until midnight Saturday evening ready to depart on the following morning which would have been Sunday the 1st day of the week daylight time.

Actually what occurred is Paul fellowshipped and preached all Sunday and after midnight he went to sleep, ready to depart on the following morning which would have been Monday.

John 8:32
Oct 18th 2012, 12:42 PM
Acts 20:7, I Cor. 16-2. They met on the first day of the week.

There are three scriptures commonly used and taught (you missed one) to try to justify Sunday worship, Acts 20:7, 1Cor 16:2 and Rev 1:10. Let’s look at the easy one first…

Number 1:

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

This nowhere states any day of the week, it is rather pointed at the Day of the Lord…

Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Jer 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Eze 30:2 Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Howl ye, Woe worth the day!
Eze 30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
Eze 30:4 And the sword shall come upon Egypt, and great pain shall be in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt, and they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations shall be broken down.

Joe 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

All of these things happen every Sunday? All the things that John saw and recorded in Revelation, the seals, the trumpets, the seven last plagues, theBeast and the False Prophet and the battle that occurs in the Valley of Decision (inaccurately called Armageddon) occur each week? What day was Jesus Christ Lord of?

Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Number 2:

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Let’s look at this passage…

Act 20:6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.

The Days of Unleavened Bread? Sunday is supposed to be associated with Easter (Ishtar, totally different subject, but you should look into the origin of it) Sunday, not the Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread. That is the supposed justification for Sunday worship. (Another subject, the resurrection was not on Sunday morning).

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

The came together to eat a meal (A potluck? We have them regularly). There is nothing in the Greek to indicate it was the Eucharist, notice how the Good News Bible translates it…

Acts 20:7 GNB “On Saturday evening we gathered together for the fellowship meal. Paul spoke to the people and kept on speaking until midnight, since he was going to leave the next day.”

When did (and still do) the days begin? The days begin at sunset and at that time the days did begin at sunset, not at some arbitrary number on a clock. So, this is actually on what we would call Saturday evening. The next verse makes it obvious that it was Saturday night…

Act 20:8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.
Act 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
Act 20:10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.

They broke bread…

Mat 14:15 And when it was evening, his disciples came to him, saying, This is a desert place, and the time is now past; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals.
Mat 14:16 But Jesus said unto them, They need not depart; give ye them to eat.
Mat 14:17 And they say unto him, We have here but five loaves, and two fishes.
Mat 14:18 He said, Bring them hither to me.
Mat 14:19 And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.
Mat 14:20 And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full.

They ate food, a meal. The only time breaking bread is tied to a religious service is on the Passover…

1Co 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

Notice that taking the Passover properly is NOT eating the Lord’s Supper, it is a solemn, dignified occasion that can result in sickness and death if not properly observed (see vs 29-30)…

1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Act 20:11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.

when someone is raised from the dead the first thing to do is feed them, the account of Jairus’ daughter shows this…

Mar 5:22 And, behold, there cometh one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name; and when he saw him, he fell at his feet,
Mar 5:23 And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live.
Mar 5:35 While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further?
Mar 5:42 And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.
Mar 5:43 And he charged them straitly that no man should know it; and commanded that something should be given her to eat.

Luke has it thusly…

Luk 8:55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

Act 20:12 And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.
Act 20:13 And we went before to ship, and sailed unto Assos, there intending to take in Paul: for so had he appointed, minding himself to go afoot.
Act 20:14 And when he met with us at Assos, we took him in, and came to Mitylene.

Now these verses 11-14 are rather interesting, Paul spoke to them all night and at daybreak on Sunday morning, walked nineteen miles across the peninsula to Assos to catch the ship. This is a journey of over 10 hours walking. The account of Paul at Troas is not a ‘Sunday go to meetin’ account, it is Paul preaching to the congregation at Troas using every available minute to give them whatever instructions he could since this was the last time he would speak with them. He left Troas and went to Ephesus…

Act 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

Whoa, there is another of the Feasts of the Lord listed in Lev 23, anyhoo, he there spoke with the church and the elders warning them of what was going to happen…

Act 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
Act 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

When one reads the context and understands what is going on here, the meeting at Troas in which he spoke to them was for the same reason, to warn them of what was coming…

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Much ado of this has been made in other threads, Paul was simply warning what would occur when he was no longer around…


New International Version (©1984)
For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

New Living Translation (©2007)
For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

Notice this is lawlessness? The Law is done away?

John 8:32
Oct 18th 2012, 12:42 PM
Acts 20:7, I Cor. 16-2. They met on the first day of the week.

Number 3:

1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Again let’s start by reading the entire passage…

1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
1Co 16:3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
1Co 16:4 And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.
1Co 16:5 Now I will come unto you, when I shall pass through Macedonia: for I do pass through Macedonia.

Verse 1, what collection for the Saints?

Act 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
Act 11:29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
Act 11:30 Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.

This is verified in 1Cor 16:3 the collection was relief for those suffering from a drought and famine in the region around Jerusalem and was to be administered from Jerusalem.

2Co 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:
2Co 9:2 For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many.
2Co 9:3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:
2Co 9:4 Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting.
2Co 9:5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
2Co 9:9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
2Co 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)
2Co 9:11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
2Co 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
2Co 9:13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;

Back to 1Cor 16:2…

The word rendered “collection” (λογία logia) does not occur anywhere else in the New Testament, and is not found in the classic writers. It is from λέγω legō, to collect, and, undoubtedly, here refers to a contribution, or collection of money for a charitable purpose. The word “saints” (ἁγίους hagious) here refers, doubtless, to “Christians;” to the persecuted Christians in Judea. There were many there; and they were generally poor, and exposed to various trials. In regard to the meaning of this word, and the circumstances and occasion of this collection; - Albert Barnes

The collection for the saints - Περι - της λογιας, from λεγω, to gather, or collect; translated by the Vulgate, de collectis, a contribution made by the rich for the relief of the poor. The Christians living at Jerusalem, we may naturally suppose, were greatly straitened; as the enmity of their countrymen to the Gospel of Christ led them to treat those who professed it with cruelty, and spoil them of their goods; (see Heb_10:34; and Rom_15:26; and see the note Rom_15:27); and the apostle hereby teaches that it was the duty of one Christian congregation to help another when in distress. – Adam Clarke

Paul was going to take this collection of foodstuffs to the poor in Judea, this is further supported…

Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

More on 1Cor 16:2, lay by oneself in store…

II. The direction itself, concerning which observe,
1. The manner in which the collection was to be made: Every one was to lay by in store (1Co_16:2), have a treasury, or fund, with himself, for this purpose. The meaning is that he should lay by as he could spare from time to time, and by this means make up a sum for this charitable purpose. – Matthew Henry

I won’t bore you with the entire commentary, you should read that for yourself, but it is plain this is not the ‘Sunday passing of the plate.’ If it is then the direct instruction from Paul is that you should take from the plate, take it home with you and lay it by store at your domicile. Do you think that is what Paul meant here? Of course not, this was a laying up in store, picking and preserving fruits and vegetables for the starving saints in Judea.


Commandment # 4: NOT ONE VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

There is no direct instruction in the N.T. anywhere changing the day of worship from Sabbath to Sunday. Heb 4:9 is much more direct concerning the Sabbath…

Hebrews 4:9 Therefore remains a keeping of a sabbath for the people of the God. – Diaglott

The scriptures commonly cited have no direct connection with changing the day of worship.

Boo
Oct 18th 2012, 12:51 PM
What is the difference between "a sabbath" and "the sabbath?"

How many sabbath days did the Jews have?

If one man regards a day for the Lord on a different day than another man picks for the Lord, is one of them wrong?

Did Paul think one of them was wrong?

Romans 14

1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Vhayes
Oct 18th 2012, 12:53 PM
According to the 3rd and 4th chapters of the epistle to the Hebrews, Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Every day is the Sabbath Day when we are believers because we "rest" in Him.

John 8:32
Oct 18th 2012, 02:26 PM
According to the 3rd and 4th chapters of the epistle to the Hebrews, Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Every day is the Sabbath Day when we are believers because we "rest" in Him.

Actually, Christ is not the rest, The Kingdom of God is the rest with Jesus Christ being the Principle. Notice in Heb 4 that it is referring to a day which is the SHADOW of the coming Kingdom of God...

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

The six days of work are the shadow of man's six days under the rulership of Satan...

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The first thing Christ does after burning to death the Beast and False prophet in Gehenna which concludes the Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty (mistakenly called Armageddon)...

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

is to bind Satan and cast him into the bottomless pit...

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Because the Devil has deceived the whole world...

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The Sabbath looks forward to the 1000 years of the Millenial reign of Christ on the earth...

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

(Now would be a good time to review Isa 2, 4, 9, 11, 35, Ezek 36, 40-48, Mic 4)


do a search for the Kingdom of God and see what Jesus Christ came preaching.

Just as a side note, if every day is the Sabbath, when do you work? Or has the N.T. Sabbath become meaningless? I think not.

John 8:32
Oct 18th 2012, 02:37 PM
According to the 3rd and 4th chapters of the epistle to the Hebrews, Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Every day is the Sabbath Day when we are believers because we "rest" in Him.

Actually, God only names one day, the rest are Day 1, Day 2, Day 3...and then the Sabbath...

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Throughout the OT the Sabbath is the seventh day. Since you opened the door with the book of Hebrews, Paul says that Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever...

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Christ put to death people who broke His Sabbath, now He says "Oh well, sorry about your luck, you were just born at the wrong time"?

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exo 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Fenris
Oct 18th 2012, 02:49 PM
Paul criticized the Judaizers for burdening Gentile believers with Jewish traditions
That's an interesting way to refer to Sabbath observance. A Jewish "tradition".

John 8:32
Oct 18th 2012, 02:54 PM
What is the difference between "a sabbath" and "the sabbath?"

How many sabbath days did the Jews have?

NONE!

Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.


If one man regards a day for the Lord on a different day than another man picks for the Lord, is one of them wrong?

Did Paul think one of them was wrong?

Romans 14

What is the subject of Romans 14?

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

The subject is judging others for vegetarianism, diet and days of fasting…

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

One has to read the entire chapter and take it in context. Remember this was not written with chapter breaks and verses, it was a letter to the church in Rome. So let’s pick up the real issue…

Rom 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

The lusts of the flesh, eating, diet and fasting.

This epistle was written for the following purpose…

Concerning the state of the church at Rome at that time, it is not easy to form a precise opinion. From this Epistle it is evident that it was composed of Jews and Gentiles and that one purpose of writing to it was to reconcile their jarring opinions, particularly about the obligation of the Jewish law, the advantage of the Jew, and the way of justification. It is probable that the two parties in the church were endeavoring to defend each their special opinions, and that the apostle took this opportunity and mode to state to his converted countrymen the great doctrines of Christianity, and the relation of the Law of Moses to the Christian system. The Epistle itself is full proof that the church to whom it was addressed was composed of Jews and Gentiles. No small part of it is an argument expressly with the Jews; Rom. 2; Rom. 3; Rom. 4; Rom. 9; Rom. 10; Rom. 11. And no small part of the Epistle is also designed to state the true doctrine about the character of the Gentiles and the way in which they could be justified before God. – Albert Barnes

John 8:32
Oct 18th 2012, 03:40 PM
That's a can and a half of worms. The short answer is no, but the Decalogue (along with the rest of the Law) still reflects the character of God, and the Holy Spirit will convict the conscience of the Christian who behaves contrary to His character. "In force" frames the question in legal terms rather than relationship-oriented terms: "How much can I get away with?" rather than "How can I please the lover of my soul?"

I think Servant89 provided a very interesting list of New Testament restatements of the Ten Commandments. (Anyone remember Servant89? Dunno what happened to him.) Here it is:

Commandment # 1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Mark 12:29,32; Rom 3:30; 1The 1:9; 1Cor 8:4,6; Gal 3:20; Eph 4:6; 1Tim 2:5; James 2:19. Love the Lord your God (Mat 22:39; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27; 2Ti 3:4; Luke 11:42).

Commandment # 2: Stay away from idols. Acts 15:20,29; Eph 5:5; 1Cor 5:11; 1Th 1:9; Acts 17:16; Acts 21:25; 1Cor 6:9; 1Pe 4:3-4; 1Cor 10:7,14; 1John 5:21; Rev 2:14,20; Rev 9:20; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 3: Do not take the name of the Lord in vain. Rom 2:24; 1Tim 6:1; Rev 16:9; Rev 13:6; Mat 12:31; Rev 16:9; James 2:7.

Commandment # 4: NOT ONE VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Commadment # 5: Honor your father and mother. Rom 1:30; 2Tim 3:2; Mat 19:19; Luke 18:20; Mat 15:4; Mark 10:19; Eph 6:2; Mark 7:10.

Commandment # 6: Do not kill. Mark 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; Rom 1:29; Gal 5:21; 1Tim 1:9; 1Pe 4:15; 1John 3:15; Rev 9:21; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commadment # 7: Do not comit adultery. Mar 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 16:18; Luke 18:20; Heb 13:4; Mat 5:27; Gal 5:19; Mat 15:19-20; Mark 7:121; Mark 10:11-12; Rom 13:9; 1Cor 6:9.

Commandment # 8: Do not steal. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; Rom 2:21; 1Cor 6:9-10; Eph 4:28; 1Pe 4:15.

Commandment # 9. Do not lie. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; John 8:44; Acts 5:3; Col 3:9; Rev 21:27; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 10. Do not covet. Eph 5:3,5; Mark 7:22-23; 2Pe 2:14; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; Luke 12:15; 1Cor 5:11; 1Tim 6:10; 1Tim 3:2; Rom 1:29; Rom 7:7; Col 3:5-6.

Notice the only Commandment anyone really has a problem with is the Fourth One?

God's legacy
Oct 18th 2012, 08:39 PM
Notice the only Commandment anyone really has a problem with is the Fourth One?

I agree for our day-but there was never any conflict as to which day was the Sabbath in the New Testament. There were conflicts about circumcision and attire but everyone knew which was the seventh day Sabbath so you don't have a lot mentioned because it was automatically observed. The apostles and the early NT churches kept the Sabbath and the holy feast days just as Jesus kept it setting the example for us to follow.
The Sabbath was made at creation-it was made for man(kind). Long before Moses's time.
And it is the only commandment that was to be a sign between God and man.
The Sabbath was made as a perpetual covenant.
If we believe Revelation, the weekly Sabbath and God's annual Holy day Sabbaths will be kept during the Millennium according to prophets.
When Jesus says" Think not that I have come to destroy the Law" but to fulfill it-what does think not mean to you?
Could Christ be expounding the principles and intent of the laws, which made it even more binding and comprehensive than before. He extended the physical keeping of the law into the realm of our thoughts. That's enhancing something, not destroying.
The ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic law are no longer necessary since Christ's death and resurrection.
However, it is very significant that as far as the 10 Commandments are concerned, every one of them has been repeated in the NT expressing God's will for Christian believers, not as conditions of salvation but as genuine character traits of a Christian, and a new way of life.
When Jesus talked to the apostles after His resurrection He spent a lot of time opening up their minds to understand the Law and the scriptures. You would think He would have told them, by the way, you don't have to observe the seventh day Sabbath any more, since that was their custom. If He did, they ignored Him, because for the next 30-40 years they continued with their required observances and instructed others to do the same.
That's the way I see it anyway.

God's legacy
Oct 18th 2012, 08:53 PM
On another commandment-the Second Commandment: " You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above......"
Does it mean we can't have statues or pictures of Jesus or Mary in our homes or place of worship?

ewq1938
Oct 18th 2012, 10:44 PM
Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Let’s look at this passage…

Doing that shows everyone who can read that it says the first day, not the 7th day as you keep claiming. They met on Sunday, not on Saturday. The text is very clear and it cannot be changed.

ewq1938
Oct 18th 2012, 10:49 PM
That's an interesting way to refer to Sabbath observance. A Jewish "tradition".

It, Saturday as the Sabbath, is a Jewish tradition and it was not brought into Christianity so isn't a Christian tradition. Christian tradition is any and everyday can be the Sabbath because Christ is the true rest and Sabbath which fulfilled the shadow of the previous Sabbath as a day of the week.

Fenris
Oct 19th 2012, 09:53 AM
It, Saturday as the Sabbath, is a Jewish tradition
Again that weird phrase. "Jewish tradition". It's not a "tradition', it's a law in the bible. Given by God.

ewq1938
Oct 19th 2012, 10:00 AM
Again that weird phrase. "Jewish tradition". It's not a "tradition', it's a law in the bible. Given by God.

It's still a tradition. Tradition does not negate it from being law.

tra·di·tion
   [truh-dish-uhn]
noun
1.
the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, especially by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition.
2.
something that is handed down: the traditions of the Eskimos.
3.
a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting: The rebellious students wanted to break with tradition.
4.
a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices.
5.
a customary or characteristic method or manner: The winner took a victory lap in the usual track tradition.

Fenris
Oct 19th 2012, 10:08 AM
It's still a tradition. Tradition does not negate it from being law.

So why not call it a law?

Are any of the other ten commandments "Jewish traditions", or are they laws?

ewq1938
Oct 19th 2012, 10:13 AM
So why not call it a law?

To you it may be law, to a Christian it isn't.



Are any of the other ten commandments "Jewish traditions", or are they laws?

It's the same difference. It is Jewish tradition to keep those laws. The word tradition does not imply something is non-law nor implies it is law. It simply means something that is practiced and passed to other generations.

dan
Oct 19th 2012, 10:19 AM
Again that weird phrase. "Jewish tradition". It's not a "tradition', it's a law in the bible. Given by God.

Amen.

MT 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
MT 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
MT 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
MT 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Fenris
Oct 19th 2012, 10:20 AM
To you it may be law, to a Christian it isn't. It's a biblical law. Perhaps Christians do not believe it to be binding on them/in the present day or whatever. That doesn't change what it is though.





It's the same difference. It is Jewish tradition to keep those laws. The word tradition does not imply something is non-law nor implies it is law. It simply means something that is practiced and passed to other generations.
Mm, no, I see a "tradition" and something customary and specifically non legal. My family has the custom of reciting Psalm 23 before partaking a meal. That's tradition. Why you would relegate a law given by God into the same category is quite baffling to me.

ewq1938
Oct 19th 2012, 10:25 AM
It's a biblical law. Perhaps Christians do not believe it to be binding on them/in the present day or whatever. That doesn't change what it is though.

It's pointless to debate this since we both know Jews keep the Old Testament laws and Christians know the law was nailed to the cross, replaced by the law of Christ.





Mm, no, I see a "tradition" and something customary and specifically non legal.

"non legal" does not appear in the word's definition.



My family has the custom of reciting Psalm 23 before partaking a meal. That's tradition. Why you would relegate a law given by God into the same category is quite baffling to me.

What one does or keeps is a tradition if it's something that is passed down and shared, whether based on a law or not.

Fenris
Oct 19th 2012, 10:31 AM
It's pointless to debate this since we both know Jews keep the Old Testament laws and Christians know the law was nailed to the cross, replaced by the law of Christ.That doesn't change the fact that Sabbath observance is a law in the bible. The point is not disputable.






"non legal" does not appear in the word's definition.
The word "legal" doesn't appear in the word's definition.

ewq1938
Oct 19th 2012, 10:38 AM
That doesn't change the fact that Sabbath observance is a law in the bible. The point is not disputable.

It's a former law no longer commanded from a Christian's perspective.



The word "legal" doesn't appear in the word's definition.

Great.

John 8:32
Oct 19th 2012, 10:59 AM
Doing that shows everyone who can read that it says the first day, not the 7th day as you keep claiming. They met on Sunday, not on Saturday. The text is very clear and it cannot be changed.

Are you saying then that no one should ever have a Bible study, prayer meeting or any other religious service of any kind on any day but the first day of the week? What did Paul do there the other six days?

Act 20:6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.

Do you suppose this could have been the conclusion of meetings with the brethren there for seven days, warning them of what was coming? Just like they did with those of Ephesus.

Or do you suppose this one account negates the other accounts of him preaching on the Sabbath in other areas?

Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Hmmm, come back next Sabbath and teach us?

Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Now here was a grand opportunity, why didn't he tell them about the change from Sabbath to Sunday?

Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Why were these women gathered here for prayer on the Sabbath? In Phillipi, a gentile city.

John 8:32
Oct 19th 2012, 11:02 AM
It, Saturday as the Sabbath, is a Jewish tradition and it was not brought into Christianity so isn't a Christian tradition. Christian tradition is any and everyday can be the Sabbath because Christ is the true rest and Sabbath which fulfilled the shadow of the previous Sabbath as a day of the week.


It's still a tradition. Tradition does not negate it from being law.

tra·di·tion
   [truh-dish-uhn]
noun
1.
the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, especially by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition.
2.
something that is handed down: the traditions of the Eskimos.
3.
a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting: The rebellious students wanted to break with tradition.
4.
a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices.
5.
a customary or characteristic method or manner: The winner took a victory lap in the usual track tradition.

Hmmm, you should acquaint yourself with history a little better...

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

The first Jew was still over 2000 years down the road. How could this be a Jewish tradition?

ewq1938
Oct 19th 2012, 11:03 AM
Are you saying then that no one should ever have a Bible study, prayer meeting or any other religious service of any kind on any day but the first day of the week?

It can be held any day of the week.

The issue here is the bible saying they met on the 1st day of the week and you claiming they met on the 7th day of the week. You are very incorrect.

ewq1938
Oct 19th 2012, 11:05 AM
Hmmm, you should acquaint yourself with history a little better...

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

The first Jew was still over 2000 years down the road. How could this be a Jewish tradition?

Because it is a Jewish tradition....which doesn't imply Jews created the Sabbath as you seem to assume "Jewish tradition" means.

John 8:32
Oct 19th 2012, 11:15 AM
It's pointless to debate this since we both know Jews keep the Old Testament laws and Christians know the law was nailed to the cross, replaced by the law of Christ.

Col 2:14 The handwriting of ordinances was nailed to the cross...

Please understand that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin) is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through the acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"). But only the penalty, not the law! - Bob Thiel

1. Of that obligation to punishment in which consists the guilt of sin. The curse of the law is the hand-writing against us, like the hand-writing on Belshazzar's wall. Cursed is every one who continues not in every thing. This was a hand-writing which was against us, and contrary to us; for it threatened our eternal ruin. This was removed when he redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us, Gal 3:13. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.).

In addition, let us look at the Greek term exaleipho translated as "wiped out" in Colossians 2:14:

NT:1813
exaleipho (ex-al-i'-fo); from NT:1537 and NT:218; to smear out, i.e. obliterate (erase tears, figuratively, pardon sin) (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

In other words, exaleipho has to do with wiping out sin. This is also confirmed in Acts 3:19 where Peter also uses the term exaleipho, which is translated as "blotted out" below:

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Hence, it is sin and the related penalties that are to be blotted or wiped out. And the penalties could vary from "being unclean to the evening" (Leviticus 11:24-28) to making an offering (Leviticus 5:5-6) to being "cut off from his people" (Leviticus 7:27) to the death penalty (Exodus 31:14).

This is also confirmed elsewhere in the New Testament:


13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (Galatians 3:13).

The curse of the law is related to the penalty. And Jesus paid it.


But what about the law of God? Was the law of God to be wiped out?

Remember that the Bible clearly teaches that sin is lawlessness:


Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. (I John 3:4-5).

Notice that Paul wrote:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Thus the New Testament makes clear that the law of God continues, thus it was not nailed to the cross or somehow wiped out. - Bob Thiel





"non legal" does not appear in the word's definition.




What one does or keeps is a tradition if it's something that is passed down and shared, whether based on a law or not.

Interesting way to do away with sin, legalize it. Hmmm, shall we legalize murder and adultery?

John 8:32
Oct 19th 2012, 11:16 AM
It can be held any day of the week.

The issue here is the bible saying they met on the 1st day of the week and you claiming they met on the 7th day of the week. You are very incorrect.

Hmmm...

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

The Sabbath has never been, is not and never will be any day but the seventh day. You can call it a space shuttle if you want to, but the first day of the week is not the Sabbath.

Fenris
Oct 19th 2012, 11:16 AM
It's a former law no longer commanded from a Christian's perspective.

Which is not the same thing as a "tradition".

John 8:32
Oct 19th 2012, 11:17 AM
Because it is a Jewish tradition....which doesn't imply Jews created the Sabbath as you seem to assume "Jewish tradition" means.

Hmmm, in Gen 2 there were no Jews, but yet it is simply a Jewish tradition? You are grasping at straws my friend.

ewq1938
Oct 19th 2012, 11:24 AM
Hmmm, in Gen 2 there were no Jews, but yet it is simply a Jewish tradition? You are grasping at straws my friend.

lol...you are quite entertaining...

JesusFreak32
Oct 19th 2012, 12:40 PM
In Matthew, Jesus says the following: "Dont suppose for a minute that I have come to demolish the Scriptures -- either God's Law or the Prophets. Im not here to demolish but complete. I am going to put it all together, pull it all together in a vast panorama. GOD'S LAW IS MORE REAL AND LASTING THAN THE STARS IN THE SKY AND THE GROUND AT YOUR FEET. Long after the stars burn out and earth wears out, God's Law will be alive and working. Trivialize even the smallest item in God's Law and you will only have trivialized yourself. But take it seriously, show the way for others, and you will find honor in the Kingdom. Unless you do far better than the Pharisees in the matter of right living, you won't know the first thing about entering the kingdom" -- (Matthew 5:17-20 // The Message)

Later Jesus says that to be a follower we must love the Lord with all our hearts, minds, bodies and souls and to love your neighbor as you love yourself.

If you contrast that with the Ten Commandments, each commandment fits into either category -- therefore yes the Commandments are absolutely still relevant

But (as shown above, Jesus says that He did not come to demolish the law. God's Law is as viable today as it was the day God gave it to Moses) the difference today is that the Law is used to judge non-believers. If they break just one part of the Law they are headed for eternal damnation in Hell. That being said, the Law (and the Ten Commandments more specifically) is to be used by Christians as a blueprint of sorts as how to live our life.

Will we go to Hell if we break one of the commandments? No, that is what the saving and redeeming blood of Christ paid for. But we are also held to a higher standard because we know the truth and are expected to live our lives up to that standard so that others will see God's love for this broken world through our actions.

Fenris
Oct 19th 2012, 12:48 PM
Will we go to Hell if we break one of the commandments? No, that is what the saving and redeeming blood of Christ paid for. But we are also held to a higher standard
I find the juxtaposition of these two statements confusing. You're being held to a higher standard but there's no consequences for not meeting that higher standard? How is that being held to a higher standard?

Amos 3:2 is about actually being held to a higher standard.

John 8:32
Oct 19th 2012, 01:40 PM
Will we go to Hell if we break one of the commandments? No, that is what the saving and redeeming blood of Christ paid for. But we are also held to a higher standard because we know the truth and are expected to live our lives up to that standard so that others will see God's love for this broken world through our actions.

Depends upon whether one repents and is forgiven or not...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Psa 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
Psa 130:4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.

ewq1938
Oct 19th 2012, 02:21 PM
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The new Testament is the same as the new Covenant.


2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

That's the ten commandments.

2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Gill


The law is "that which is done away"; not merely the ceremonial law, or the judicial law, but the whole ministry of Moses, and particularly the law of the Decalogue

Matthew Henry


The law is done away, but the gospel does and shall remain, 2Co_3:11. Not only did the glory of Moses's face go away, but the glory of Moses's law is done away also; yea, the law of Moses itself is now abolished. That dispensation was only to continue for a time, and then to vanish away; whereas the gospel shall remain to the end of the world, and is always fresh and flourishing and remains glorious.


Barnes


The splendor that attended the giving of the Law; the bright shining of the face of Moses; and the ritual institutions of his religion. It was to be done away. It was never designed to be permanent. Everything in it had a transient existence, and was so designed.



And here we see the ten commandments were "done away"...in favor of something that did not represent death but represented life! Something far more glorious than the old.




2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:


Plainly spoken indeed but will the message be accepted?


2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

The vail causes those of Israel to be unable to see the end of that which was abolished, the first covenant, the law, including the ten commandments mentioned in verses 7 and 11.

Gill


to the end of that which is abolished; that is, to Christ, who is the end of the law, which is abrogated by him: to him they could not look, nor could they see him to be the fulfilling end of the law for righteousness; which being fulfilled, is done away by him; and this because of the blindness of their hearts, of which blindness the veil on Moses' face was typical: though the Alexandrian copy and the Vulgate Latin version read, "to the face of him which is abolished".

Matthew Henry


Though the Israelites could not look stedfastly to the end of what was commanded, but is now abolished, yet we may. We may see the meaning of those types and shadows by the accomplishment, seeing the veil is done away in, Christ and he is come, who was the end of the law for righteousness to all those who believe, and whom Moses and all the prophets pointed to, and wrote of.


Barnes


Of that which is abolished - Or rather to be abolished, τοῦ καταργουμένου to katargoumenou), whose nature, design, and intention it was that it should be abolished. It was never designed to be permanent; and Paul speaks of it here as a thing that was known and indisputable that the Mosaic institutions were designed to be abolished.

John 8:32
Oct 19th 2012, 05:10 PM
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The new Testament is the same as the new Covenant.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

quoted from:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Not according to Paul. The New Covenant is not the abolishment of the Old Covenant, it is the writing of the law in our hearts and minds.



2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

That's the ten commandments.

2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Gill,


to the end of that which is abolished; that is, to Christ, who is the end of the law, which is abrogated by him: to him they could not look, nor could they see him to be the fulfilling end of the law for righteousness; which being fulfilled, is done away by him; and this because of the blindness of their hearts, of which blindness the veil on Moses' face was typical: though the Alexandrian copy and the Vulgate Latin version read, "to the face of him which is abolished".

Matthew Henry


Though the Israelites could not look stedfastly to the end of what was commanded, but is now abolished, yet we may. We may see the meaning of those types and shadows by the accomplishment, seeing the veil is done away in, Christ and he is come, who was the end of the law for righteousness to all those who believe, and whom Moses and all the prophets pointed to, and wrote of.


Barnes


Of that which is abolished - Or rather to be abolished, τοῦ καταργουμένου to katargoumenou), whose nature, design, and intention it was that it should be abolished. It was never designed to be permanent; and Paul speaks of it here as a thing that was known and indisputable that the Mosaic institutions were designed to be abolished.

And here we see the ten commandments were "done away"...in favor of something that did not represent death but represented life! Something far more glorious than the old.

Hmmm, what was the Old Covenant?

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Exo 19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

This was the Old Covenant. The Ten Commandments were not the covenant, they were the terms of the Covenant. According to Heb 8 they are the terms of the New Covenant also.


2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:


Plainly spoken indeed but will the message be accepted?


2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

The vail causes those of Israel to be unable to see the end of that which was abolished, the first covenant, the law, including the ten commandments mentioned in verses 7 and 11.

Gill



Matthew Henry




Barnes

Hmmm, same Paul who said...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Paul completely understood that the New Covenant was one of grace, that forgiveness of sin...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

was accomplished by Christ taking the punishment (death) for us. He also understood that sin requires blood...

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

And that shed blood...

Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

cleansed us and removed from us the death penalty (the curse of the law).

He also understood that the sacrifices of the Old Covenant...

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Were a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ...

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The lesson being that as we saw, sin requires blood and if not Christ's blood, then it would be our own. The wages of sin (Rom 6:23) would be paid to us, but...

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

We are justified by Christ's blood. His sacrifice did not remove the law, it paid the penalty for our breaking of the law.

Let's read a few scriptures here and follow them to conclusion...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

(Still, and this was written somewhere around 85AD, 54 years after Christ's sacrifice)

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Now if the sacrifice of Christ really did abolish the law, why do any of us need a Savior? There is no law and therefore no transgression, therefore no sin and we do not need saved from sin and death.

moonglow
Oct 19th 2012, 08:53 PM
There is a difference between following the hundreds of laws in the OT...which we are no longer bound too,Romans 7, (though can learn from!)...and the Ten Commandments.

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Jesus gave Two Commandments (which if followed actually fulfill the Ten)


Matthew 22

34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Jesus fulfilled the law:

What does it mean that Jesus fulfilled the law, but did not abolish it? (http://www.gotquestions.org/abolish-fulfill-law.html)

God bless

God's legacy
Oct 19th 2012, 10:26 PM
Re: The Sabbath issue- The 1st day of the week is always called the 1st day of the week in the Bible-it is never called the Sabbath.
From Genesis to Revelation there is not one verse that authorizes the sanctification of the 1st day of the week or any other day instead of the 7th day as the new Sabbath using precise directives from God. It seems to be a man-made statute that arrived on the scene later.

ewq1938
Oct 19th 2012, 11:57 PM
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

quoted from:
Not according to Paul. The New Covenant is not the abolishment of the Old Covenant, it is the writing of the law in our hearts and minds.2Co 3:6

Yes according to Paul. He says it more than once:

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Thanks for posting all those random scriptures but let's focus on what Paul is saying here, and what Gill, Henry, and Barnes say. After we get through these, we can get into the other ones and we will be able to see Paul is consistent in his teachings.




Now if the sacrifice of Christ really did abolish the law, why do any of us need a Savior? There is no law and therefore no transgression, therefore no sin and we do not need saved from sin and death.

Christ abolished the old law, and established a new law.

Tony Cross
Oct 20th 2012, 04:54 AM
Doing that shows everyone who can read that it says the first day, not the 7th day as you keep claiming. They met on Sunday, not on Saturday. The text is very clear and it cannot be changed.

Ewg, no amount of scripture, unfortunately, will ever convince some one who has already made his mind up. Lets not confuse them with facts :)

ewq1938
Oct 20th 2012, 04:57 AM
Ewg, no amount of scripture, unfortunately, will ever convince some one who has already made his mind up. Lets not confuse them with facts :)

True enough but it's those who may be wrongly influenced that we try to reach.

Tony Cross
Oct 20th 2012, 05:10 AM
True enough but it's those who may be wrongly influenced that we try to reach.

Very true. Your wording was better than mine.

God's legacy
Oct 20th 2012, 07:17 PM
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The new Testament is the same as the new Covenant.


2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

That's the ten commandments.

2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Gill



Matthew Henry




Barnes





And here we see the ten commandments were "done away"...in favor of something that did not represent death but represented life! Something far more glorious than the old.




2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:


Plainly spoken indeed but will the message be accepted?


2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

The vail causes those of Israel to be unable to see the end of that which was abolished, the first covenant, the law, including the ten commandments mentioned in verses 7 and 11.

Gill



Matthew Henry




Barnes

I would be wary of 3rd party notes but rather rely on the Bible itself since it warns of false teachers.
Paul and the other apostles kept the original OT commandments and feast days years after Jesus's time on earth.
What did Paul think about the 10 Commandments?
1 Cor 7:19 - He endorses the Law and this to a predominately gentile church. He emphasizes this strongly by saying circumcision is not a big deal but keeping the Commandments are.
In Romans 13:8-10 - Paul quotes the 10 commandments as being authoritative in the church and basis of Law for New Covenant believers.
1 Cor 14:37-pretty powerful statement regarding His attachment to God's Law.

2Cor 3rd chapter as you understand it would contradict everything Paul stood for regarding his teachings in the New Testament that the 10 commandments are in full force today with a better focus on the spirit of the law rather than just the letter of the law thanks to Jesus Christ

ewq1938
Oct 20th 2012, 09:34 PM
I would be wary of 3rd party notes but rather rely on the Bible itself since it warns of false teachers.

False teachers will contradict the bible. In this case, the 3 I quoted are in harmony with what is being taught by Paul.



Paul and the other apostles kept the original OT commandments and feast days years after Jesus's time on earth.

That's unfounded opinion. The very fact Paul teaches the law has passed away would strongly suggest he would not practice it but would practice the law of Christ which is in many ways similar, but also has important differences.



What did Paul think about the 10 Commandments?
1 Cor 7:19 - He endorses the Law and this to a predominately gentile church. He emphasizes this strongly by saying circumcision is not a big deal but keeping the Commandments are.

Not the "ten commandments" but commandments regarding the New Covenant.


In Romans 13:8-10 - Paul quotes the 10 commandments as being authoritative in the church and basis of Law for New Covenant believers.

He quotes all ten huh? Let's see if that statement is true or false:

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1. Thou shalt not commit adultery
2. Thou shalt not kill
3. Thou shalt not steal
4. Thou shalt not bear false witness
5. Thou shalt not covet


In Romans 13:8-10 - Paul quotes the 10 commandments as being authoritative in the church and basis of Law for New Covenant believers.

Obvious Paul did no such thing. Paul speaks of some of the commandments and ends up, as Christ did, that one of the important would be summed up as "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"




1 Cor 14:37-pretty powerful statement regarding His attachment to God's Law.

The verse is pretty clear to have nothing to do with "his attachment to God's law":

1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Paul clearly says what he is writing, Paul's writings, are the commandments of the Lord.



2Cor 3rd chapter as you understand it would contradict everything Paul stood for regarding his teachings in the New Testament that the 10 commandments are in full force today with a better focus on the spirit of the law rather than just the letter of the law thanks to Jesus Christ

No. Neither Paul, nor any NT writer states the ten commandments nor OT law is in effect after the death of Christ. Paul is extremely clear and repetitive that the old law and ten commandments and the old covenant are no more, replaced by new things when Christ shed his blood.

2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Gill


The law is "that which is done away"; not merely the ceremonial law, or the judicial law, but the whole ministry of Moses, and particularly the law of the Decalogue

Matthew Henry


The law is done away, but the gospel does and shall remain, 2Co_3:11. Not only did the glory of Moses's face go away, but the glory of Moses's law is done away also; yea, the law of Moses itself is now abolished. That dispensation was only to continue for a time, and then to vanish away; whereas the gospel shall remain to the end of the world, and is always fresh and flourishing and remains glorious.


Barnes


The splendor that attended the giving of the Law; the bright shining of the face of Moses; and the ritual institutions of his religion. It was to be done away. It was never designed to be permanent. Everything in it had a transient existence, and was so designed.

God's legacy
Oct 20th 2012, 11:06 PM
False teachers will contradict the bible. In this case, the 3 I quoted are in harmony with what is being taught by Paul.




That's unfounded opinion. The very fact Paul teaches the law has passed away would strongly suggest he would not practice it but would practice the law of Christ which is in many ways similar, but also has important differences.




Not the "ten commandments" but commandments regarding the New Covenant.



He quotes all ten huh? Let's see if that statement is true or false:

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1. Thou shalt not commit adultery
2. Thou shalt not kill
3. Thou shalt not steal
4. Thou shalt not bear false witness
5. Thou shalt not covet



Obvious Paul did no such thing. Paul speaks of some of the commandments and ends up, as Christ did, that one of the important would be summed up as "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"





The verse is pretty clear to have nothing to do with "his attachment to God's law":

1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Paul clearly says what he is writing, Paul's writings, are the commandments of the Lord.




No. Neither Paul, nor any NT writer states the ten commandments nor OT law is in effect after the death of Christ. Paul is extremely clear and repetitive that the old law and ten commandments and the old covenant are no more, replaced by new things when Christ shed his blood.

2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Gill



Matthew Henry




Barnes


Re: The New Commandment - A lot of theologians teach that Christ's new commandment supersedes the ten commandments and all other biblical law.
I know quoting Matt 5:17 doesn't seem to matter in this regard to some.
The Holy Scriptures in the Old and New Testament teach that we should love each other as we love ourselves-Lev 19:18
Jesus did not introduce love as a new principle-that was already in the bible.
What was then " new" in this new commandment. He said "we are to love one another as I have loved you..."
What was new was His example of love.
Jesus is the perfect model of love.
He loved us so much He sacrificed His life for us. John 15:13 -and we should be willing to do the same for our friends.
Jesus came to illuminate the application and practice of the Law of Love.
Jesus demonstrated what loving obedience is all about-John 15:10
we comply with Jesus's new commandment when we obey every commandment of God in a loving manner..not the reverse.I

God's legacy
Oct 21st 2012, 01:01 AM
Did Paul keep the Holy day feasts and did he teach gentiles to keep them as well- yes to both questions.
e.g. for Paul keeping the feasts-Acts 18:21
For teaching the gentiles to keep them-1 Cor 5:8.
I believe poster John 8:32 provided many more examples.

Why would Paul teach against observing the feast days or sabbaths when he himself was a devoted holy day keeper?

ewq1938
Oct 21st 2012, 01:25 AM
Did Paul keep the Holy day feasts and did he teach gentiles to keep them as well- yes to both questions.
e.g. for Paul keeping the feasts-Acts 18:21

Act 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

You said, "Did Paul keep the Holy day feasts" and cited this verse but only one feast is spoken of, rather than "feasts" plural. Paul does not explain which feast this is, nor why he wants to keep it. Most scholars believe he wanted to attend this feast because of how many people would be attending and his ministry was to preach Christ to those that did not know him.







For teaching the gentiles to keep them-1 Cor 5:8.

1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

This isn't a Jewish feast, and not a literal feast at all but is a symbolic "feast" where leaven isn't literal leaven and bread isn't literal bread. That is obvious even in a casual reading of the verse and when reading the surrounding scriptures this become the more clear. One cannot just see the word feast and assume all of the sudden that Paul is teaching gentiles to keep Jewish feasts. He clearly is not doing anything of the sort.



Why would Paul teach against observing the feast days or sabbaths when he himself was a devoted holy day keeper?

Saul was a "holy day keeper" but after converting to Christianity, Paul taught that such things have passed away and did not teach things like saturday Sabbath keeping. There is no evidence that he kept such a Sabbath at all, especially in they way Jews did. Once the gospel of Christ came and his death on the cross, no Apostle or disciple taught these things to Christian converts.

God's legacy
Oct 23rd 2012, 06:12 AM
Act 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

You said, "Did Paul keep the Holy day feasts" and cited this verse but only one feast is spoken of, rather than "feasts" plural. Paul does not explain which feast this is, nor why he wants to keep it. Most scholars believe he wanted to attend this feast because of how many people would be attending and his ministry was to preach Christ to those that did not know him.

A-Feasts were mentioned as plural to cover all the Holy days-this was one of them.






1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

This isn't a Jewish feast, and not a literal feast at all but is a symbolic "feast" where leaven isn't literal leaven and bread isn't literal bread. That is obvious even in a casual reading of the verse and when reading the surrounding scriptures this become the more clear. One cannot just see the word feast and assume all of the sudden that Paul is teaching gentiles to keep Jewish feasts. He clearly is not doing anything of the sort.

B-This is an analogy and they are only effective if the audience is familiar with the illustration
Paul's mention of leaven without explanation clearly implies the congregation understood the purpose of putting out leaven during the feast days of unleavened bread. Paul gave a command regarding the correct manner of keeping the feast-1Cor:5-8
"Let us keep the feast " is what Greek grammar calls Horatory subjective used to command one self and ones associates to unite in a course of action.But the feast is a literal event-Christ's sacrifice for us.

Saul was a "holy day keeper" but after converting to Christianity, Paul taught that such things have passed away and did not teach things like Saturday Sabbath keeping. There is no evidence that he kept such a Sabbath at all, especially in they way Jews did. Once the gospel of Christ came and his death on the cross, no Apostle or disciple taught these things to Christian converts.

C-In Col 2; Paul upholds the Holy days " as a shadow of things to come "
The NT plainly reveals the annual holy days are connected with the events of Christs redemptive work and the plan of God for all mankind in the future-His plan of salvation for us.
In 1 John 5:2-3, John who at this time has aged quite a bit almost 50 years after serving Jesus during His ministry on earth still tells us to keep God's commandments and they are not a burden as some have claimed.
Revelation tells us we will be keeping the Sabbaths and Holy days during the millennium-something that people now are struggling to dismiss as being done away with in order to accommodate man mad traditions.

ewq1938
Oct 23rd 2012, 06:28 AM
C-In Col 2; Paul upholds the Holy days " as a shadow of things to come "

He says they are the shadows and the body of Christ cast those shadows meaning now that we had Christ and his sacrifice, the shadows pale in comparison. Do you want Christ's shadow or do you want Christ?



The NT plainly reveals the annual holy days are connected with the events of Christs redemptive work and the plan of God for all mankind in the future-His plan of salvation for us.

Very untrue. The NT shows us these things no longer belong.



In 1 John 5:2-3, John who at this time has aged quite a bit almost 50 years after serving Jesus during His ministry on earth tells us to keep God's commandments and they are not a burden as some have claimed.

God's commandments are different in the new cov. than they were in the old. John is speaking of the commandments of Christ, of the New covenant.



Revelation tells us we will be keeping the Sabbaths and Holy days during the millennium-

The book of Revelation says no such thing.

These ceremonial things were left behind long ago where they belong.

God's legacy
Oct 24th 2012, 01:55 AM
He says they are the shadows and the body of Christ cast those shadows meaning now that we had Christ and his sacrifice, the shadows pale in comparison. Do you want Christ's shadow or do you want Christ?




Very untrue. The NT shows us these things no longer belong.




God's commandments are different in the new cov. than they were in the old. John is speaking of the commandments of Christ, of the New covenant.




The book of Revelation says no such thing.

These ceremonial things were left behind long ago where they belong.

In Col 2:17 " which are a shadow of things to come " or foreshadow.
Verse 17 is referring to verse 16 in respect of holydays and sabbath days. It's talking about future events revolving around these observances yet to happen.

1 Cor 5:7 - " ....for indeed Christ, our PASSOVER was sacrificed for us." There is one correlation, among many.
Also 1Peter 1:18-20.
The Apostles understood the prophetic relationship of the OT Passover to the work and mission of Jesus Christ.
Each holy day has it's future significance.

In 1 John 5:2-3 we know he is referring to the ten commandments when he says, and His commandments are not grievous. this is an earlier reference to some who thought the ten commandments were a burden, a yoke of bondage.

you are right that in the book of revelation there is no direct mention in its scriptures to the feast days but they are implied if you understand God's laws will be enforced. But we know that Rev. is about the future Kingdom of God and the second coming of Christ.
And God inspired His prophets to reveal what will happen in those end days which are directly related to the visions and words John experiences.
Zechariah 14 - God tells us through Zech. the whole world will observe the Feast of Tabernacles.
Isaiah 66- tells us all flesh will worship God from one Sabbath to another.
That is what your world tomorrow will be like.

ewq1938
Oct 24th 2012, 02:00 AM
In 1 John 5:2-3 we know he is referring to the ten commandments when he says, and His commandments are not grievous. this is an earlier reference to some who thought the ten commandments were a burden, a yoke of bondage.

John refers to the commandments of Jesus, not the OT ten commandments.

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

God's legacy
Oct 24th 2012, 06:08 PM
John refers to the commandments of Jesus, not the OT ten commandments.

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

We are aware that Jesus said that His yoke was easy referring to God's law but the people felt they were subjugated to harsh laws because the religious leaders of the day enforced strict requirements to the letter of the law. Matt 23:4
Jesus changed all that and showed us what could be done on the Sabbaths by example-helping and feeding others for example.
Jesus brought a whole new spiritual aspect to God's Law-it was no longer a law of bondage but a law of liberty-true freedom.
His new Law of love-see post#60- magnifies our responsibility to bring the ten commandments to a higher level of devotion and humanity.

ewq1938
Oct 25th 2012, 12:02 AM
We are aware that Jesus said that His yoke was easy referring to God's law but the people felt they were subjugated to harsh laws because the religious leaders of the day enforced strict requirements to the letter of the law.

The new covenant that Christ came to introduce and ratify in his blood had a new law similar but different to the first covenant's laws and these new laws were a lighter burden.



Matt 23:4
Jesus changed all that and showed us what could be done on the Sabbaths by example-helping and feeding others for example.

Yes, people were now free to work and travel and be active on Saturdays now. Christ would become the Sabbath and true rest would be found in accepting him and the New covenant.



Jesus brought a whole new spiritual aspect to God's Law-it was no longer a law of bondage but a law of liberty-true freedom.

Careful not to imply the old law was just re-understood in a new way. It was cast away and a new law replaced it.


Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The first had to be taken away so the second could be established. If two sets of laws existed, there would be confusion and we see this confusion often where some teach the first law was not taken away, or only part was taken away and parts of the first law should be adhered to in a literal way.

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Amen.




His new Law of love-see post#60- magnifies our responsibility to bring the ten commandments to a higher level of devotion and humanity.

All ten exist in some way, but not at all as they existed and were written originally.

God's legacy
Oct 27th 2012, 01:44 AM
The new covenant that Christ came to introduce and ratify in his blood had a new law similar but different to the first covenant's laws and these new laws were a lighter burden.




Yes, people were now free to work and travel and be active on Saturdays now. Christ would become the Sabbath and true rest would be found in accepting him and the New covenant.



Careful not to imply the old law was just re-understood in a new way. It was cast away and a new law replaced it.


Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The first had to be taken away so the second could be established. If two sets of laws existed, there would be confusion and we see this confusion often where some teach the first law was not taken away, or only part was taken away and parts of the first law should be adhered to in a literal way.

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Amen.





All ten exist in some way, but not at all as they existed and were written originally.


The transfer of the priesthood to Jesus Christ is the reason certain modifications in the Law were necessary.
In law, amending items in an established body of law does not abolish the entire body of law.
It only changes certain portions of it.
The reason for the changes is found in Heb 8:1-2
The new emphasis was on changing people's hearts and minds rather than on perpetuating symbolic rituals and ceremonies-Heb 8:10

In your understanding of the new law replacements, how are commandments like " You shall not murder " and " You shall not commit adultery " interpreted? And in what way do they exist for the modern day Christian?

ewq1938
Oct 27th 2012, 02:00 AM
The transfer of the priesthood to Jesus Christ is the reason certain modifications in the Law were necessary.
In law, amending items in an established body of law does not abolish the entire body of law.
It only changes certain portions of it.


I am aware of that. There was a fulfillment of the law which made it able to be put away in favor of a new law/laws.


In your understanding of the new law replacements, how are commandments like " You shall not murder " and " You shall not commit adultery " interpreted? And in what way do they exist for the modern day Christian?

Moral sins are forbidden in the law of Christ just as they had been in the former law. Some are even expounded upon as is the case in both of those sins.


Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The first is taken away so a second can replace it.

God's legacy
Oct 27th 2012, 11:41 PM
I am aware of that. There was a fulfillment of the law which made it able to be put away in favor of a new law/laws.



Moral sins are forbidden in the law of Christ just as they had been in the former law. Some are even expounded upon as is the case in both of those sins.


Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The first is taken away so a second can replace it.

Overall Hebrews contrasts the Old Testament sacrificial laws and offerings that were temple based and filled a temporary need until Jesus became the sacrifice for sin they represented. Their observance was no longer required.

Could you expound on the new testament version you talk about of the sixth commandment " You shall not murder " versus the Old Testament code?

ewq1938
Oct 28th 2012, 12:52 AM
Could you expound on the new testament version you talk about of the sixth commandment " You shall not murder " versus the Old Testament code?

Murder could be non-literal.

1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Noeb
Oct 28th 2012, 04:43 AM
Could you expound on the new testament version you talk about of the sixth commandment " You shall not murder " versus the Old Testament code?In Matthew 5 Jesus fulfills (complete-to the full-shows perfectly) the law.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The OT version is the NT version. They are one and the same. It was always a heart issue as much it was a outward act.

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:

God's legacy
Oct 28th 2012, 09:21 PM
I agree with you both-the spirit of the Law, a better comprehension of the commandments, far exceeds the old literal letter of the law. And we are blessed to have the Holy Spirit, our comforter, to help us maintain the higher standard expected of us now.
Peace to you all.
GL

susanboyce
Oct 28th 2012, 09:51 PM
Amen

I am one with you

John 8:32
Oct 30th 2012, 06:25 PM
There is a difference between following the hundreds of laws in the OT...which we are no longer bound too,Romans 7, (though can learn from!)...and the Ten Commandments.


This is exactly what I have been saying, The Ten Commandments are in full force today.


John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Jesus gave Two Commandments (which if followed actually fulfill the Ten)


Matthew 22

34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Jesus fulfilled the law:

What does it mean that Jesus fulfilled the law, but did not abolish it? (http://www.gotquestions.org/abolish-fulfill-law.html)

God bless

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Just continue reading on in the chapter, Christ filled the law full (fulfilled) with deeper meaning than those around Him could comprehend.

ewq1938
Oct 30th 2012, 11:50 PM
This is exactly what I have been saying, The Ten Commandments are in full force today.

No, they along with all the law, have passed away. It was all fulfilled by Christ so a new Covenant and new commandments could be established. All the moral laws and concepts exist in the new, but most of the ceremonial laws are gone. Some exist in a higher spiritual form such as Christ being the Sabbath now.

CEV

2Co 3:6 He makes us worthy to be the servants of his new agreement that comes from the Holy Spirit and not from a written Law. After all, the Law brings death, but the Spirit brings life.
2Co 3:7 The Law of Moses brought only the promise of death, even though it was carved on stones and given in a wonderful way. Still the Law made Moses' face shine so brightly that the people of Israel could not look at it, even though it was a fading glory.
2Co 3:8 So won't the agreement that the Spirit brings to us be even more wonderful?
2Co 3:9 If something that brings the death sentence is glorious, won't something that makes us acceptable to God be even more glorious?
2Co 3:10 In fact, the new agreement is so wonderful that the Law is no longer glorious at all.
2Co 3:11 The Law was given with a glory that faded away. But the glory of the new agreement is much greater, because it will never fade away.
2Co 3:12 This wonderful hope makes us feel like speaking freely.
2Co 3:13 We are not like Moses. His face was shining, but he covered it to keep the people of Israel from seeing the brightness fade away.
2Co 3:14 The people were stubborn, and something still keeps them from seeing the truth when the Law is read. Only Christ can take away the covering that keeps them from seeing.
2Co 3:15 When the Law of Moses is read, they have their minds covered over
2Co 3:16 with a covering that is removed only for those who turn to the Lord.
2Co 3:17 The Lord and the Spirit are one and the same, and the Lord's Spirit sets us free.
2Co 3:18 So our faces are not covered. They show the bright glory of the Lord, as the Lord's Spirit makes us more and more like our glorious Lord.

KJV

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Noeb
Oct 31st 2012, 03:10 AM
This is exactly what I have been saying, The Ten Commandments are in full force today.No. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ is in full force.

rstrats
Nov 25th 2012, 02:27 AM
ewq1938,

re: “Some exist in a higher spiritual form such as Christ being the Sabbath now.”


I’m not aware of any scripture that says that the Messiah is the Sabbath. What do you have in mind?

ewq1938
Nov 25th 2012, 03:15 AM
ewq1938,

re: “Some exist in a higher spiritual form such as Christ being the Sabbath now.”


I’m not aware of any scripture that says that the Messiah is the Sabbath. What do you have in mind?


Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.