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ross3421
Oct 22nd 2012, 12:37 AM
Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Re 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

First we see that these two witnesses (prophets) are also two candlesticks which stand before God

What do the two candlesticks represent? 2 of the 7 churches.
Who then are the two witnesses? 2 angels of the 7 churches.

Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Would Moses or Elijah be two angles of the 7 churches? No. There are two angels in scripture which the bible says stands for God.


Gabriel and Michael

Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Lu 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God;and am sent to speak unto thee, and to show thee these glad tidings.

Da 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

Ceegen
Oct 22nd 2012, 02:03 AM
"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:" - Malachi 4:5.

Hmmm... Interesting conflict we have here.

adampjr
Oct 22nd 2012, 02:07 AM
There are like 17 two witnesses threads going on lol.

Slug1
Oct 22nd 2012, 02:31 AM
As long as the two witnesses know who they themselves are... we have nothing to worry about :P

ross3421
Oct 22nd 2012, 03:57 AM
"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:" - Malachi 4:5.

Hmmm... Interesting conflict we have here.

You are taking that "before" means "just prior" and thus one of the witnesses. However as you know "before" can mean anytime after Malachi up to the day of the Lord. Yes I do agree the day of the Lord is the second coming. Elijah was represented as John the Baptist.

Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mt 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Mt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mt 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mt 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Ceegen
Oct 22nd 2012, 05:06 AM
You are taking that "before" means "just prior" and thus one of the witnesses. However as you know "before" can mean anytime after Malachi up to the day of the Lord. Yes I do agree the day of the Lord is the second coming. Elijah was represented as John the Baptist.

Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mt 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Mt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mt 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mt 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Very good, I stand corrected.

Now I am really interested to know, but I'm not so sure on just the names of those two angels. I'll read more and pray about it, but I won't jump to conclusions just yet. Certainly, the birth of John was a miracle also. Will Enoch come back at all, or has come back already? Very interesting questions for other reasons too, I think.

Raybob
Oct 22nd 2012, 11:11 AM
Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Re 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

First we see that these two witnesses (prophets) are also two candlesticks which stand before God

What do the two candlesticks represent? 2 of the 7 churches.
Who then are the two witnesses? 2 angels of the 7 churches.

Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Would Moses or Elijah be two angles of the 7 churches? No. There are two angels in scripture which the bible says stands for God. ...

How can you jump tracks like that? I can see your conclusion that the two witnesses represent churches. What I can't understand is how you can jump tracks at one point realizing they can be 2 churches, from that to thinking they aren't churches but now are somehow (messengers angels) from those churches. That makes no sense. I see plenty of other biblical references that the 2 witnesses could represent churches, but I see no biblical reference at all, that they could represent messengers from those churches.

Also, how can you say two angels represent God, then later assume those two angels represent the church? God is not a church.

ross3421
Oct 22nd 2012, 01:10 PM
How can you jump tracks like that? I can see your conclusion that the two witnesses represent churches. What I can't understand is how you can jump tracks at one point realizing they can be 2 churches, from that to thinking they aren't churches but now are somehow (messengers angels) from those churches. That makes no sense. I see plenty of other biblical references that the 2 witnesses could represent churches, but I see no biblical reference at all, that they could represent messengers from those churches..

Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The two prophets are called candlesticks but of course they are not the multitute of the church but two individuals thus they represent the churches as the stars.


Also, how can you say two angels represent God, then later assume those two angels represent the church? God is not a church

I said they stand with and for God. Who are Gabriel and Michael?

Raybob
Oct 22nd 2012, 06:35 PM
Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The two prophets are called candlesticks but of course they are not the multitute of the church but two individuals thus they represent the churches as the stars.This is what I don't understand. Where do you get two prophets? If I had to guess, I would say the two witnesses are not two specific people, but two churches, namely the gentile church and the messianic Jew church, but I most certainly wouldn't assume that it speaks of two individual people.




I said they stand with and for God. Who are Gabriel and Michael?

They are angels (messengers) from God, not messengers from two of seven churches.

markedward
Oct 22nd 2012, 09:12 PM
If you want to read anything you want into the Bible, then yes, you could say Gabriel and Michael are the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

If you want to read the Bible with appropriate exegesis, there's no way you could come to that conclusion. It seems you're doing so solely because Gabriel and Michael happen to be the only angels given names in the canonical books of the Bible, but all the while you're disregarding the actual details given to the reader in Revelation 11. What if there happened to be three or more angels named in the Bible (Raphael, Uriel, etc.)? What if there was only one or even none? That there happen to be two named is only a matter of convenience.


1. Contextually, only one of the two is even named in the book (Michael), and it has nothing to do with the context of chapter 11. Why didn't John name the two witnesses if they are meant to have specific angelic identities, if he had no problem naming one angel in the next chapter?

2. The lampstands are symbols for the churches, not the messengers of the churches. If John wanted to use his symbolism consistently (and we have no reason to think otherwise), or if he wanted to invest the 'lampstands' with new symbolism (and we have no reason to think he did), why didn't he call the two witnesses 'stars' instead of 'lampstands'?

3. The reason Moses and Elijah are so often identified in the two witnesses is because John explicitly associates the two witnesses with miracles performed by Moses and Elijah. You need a reason more than a dismissive handwave for why you think this connection is wrong. This includes the idea that the references to Moses and Elijah are typological, rather than literal.

4. John's symbolism for the two lampstands / two olive trees is obviously referring to Zechariah 4, where they together signify Joshua the high priest and Zerubbabel the royal governor. You've given no explanation for why John would use this symbolism, but again in keeping with his own consistent terminology, it makes most sense that he is referring to the Church in some sense (not angels), because 'lampstands' represent the Church in his book, on two levels. The first level is the obvious one: he calls the seven churches 'lampstands' in chapter 1-3. The second level is more subtle: he consistently identifies the Church as a royal priesthood (the introduction in chapter 1, and the song in chapter 5). The lampstands in Zechariah 4 refer to royalty (Zerubbabel, son of David) and priesthood (Joshua). It makes a world of sense for why he would apply the symbolism for the royalty and priesthood (two lampstands / two olive trees) of Zechariah 4 to his two witnesses, if the two witnesses figuratively personify the Church in some way. It makes no sense when applied to a literal pair of angels.

John146
Oct 22nd 2012, 09:21 PM
2. The lampstands are symbols for the churches, not the messengers of the churches. If John wanted to use his symbolism consistently (and we have no reason to think otherwise), or if he wanted to invest the 'lampstands' with new symbolism (and we have no reason to think he did), why didn't he call the two witnesses 'stars' instead of 'lampstands'?Exactly. I was going to make that same point. It doesn't say the two witnesses are two "stars", it says they are two "lampstands" (or "candlesticks") and Rev 1 indicates that lampstands represent churches. So, the two witnesses are being associated with churches (since lampstands represent churches), not to angels or messengers of the churches.


4. John's symbolism for the two lampstands / two olive trees is obviously referring to Zechariah 4, where they together signify Joshua the high priest and Zerubbabel the royal governor. You've given no explanation for why John would use this symbolism, but again in keeping with his own consistent terminology, it makes most sense that he is referring to the Church in some sense (not angels), because 'lampstands' represent the Church in his book, on two levels. The first level is the obvious one: he calls the seven churches 'lampstands' in chapter 1-3. The second level is more subtle: he consistently identifies the Church as a royal priesthood (the introduction in chapter 1, and the song in chapter 5). The lampstands in Zechariah 4 refer to royalty (Zerubbabel, son of David) and priesthood (Joshua). It makes a world of sense for why he would apply the symbolism for the royalty and priesthood (two lampstands / two olive trees) of Zechariah 4 to his two witnesses, if the two witnesses figuratively personify the Church in some way. It makes no sense when applied to a literal pair of angels.Agree.

divaD
Oct 22nd 2012, 09:49 PM
I think I have a lot of this somewhat figured out, except I can't find an easy way to express this in writing. IMO, most of the answers are found in the book of Daniel, and is tied to the 1260 days, and that there are possibly two 1260 day periods, when added together equals the entire 70th week. I will say this, tho in the past I would have indicated otherwise, these two witnesses are not two literal individuals, such as two literal persons or two literal angels. That's the direction I'm currently leaning, but unfortunately it would be too tedious for me to try and express this all in writing.

Look at this clue for instance.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.


First of all, mathematically speaking, the 3 and 1/2 days here, this is equal to 42 months, which is equal to a time, times, and the dividing of time, which is equal to 1260 days.

What does Daniel tell us about this beast making war with?

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


IMO, this would be this three days and an half mentioned in Revelation 11, which would equal this time and times and the dividing of time in Daniel 7.

We also see this in Daniel 8.

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Then we have another clue in Rev 10 which seems to provide more clarity when consulting Daniel 12.

Revelation 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


This tells us the mystery of God should be finished, in the days of the voice of the seventh angel.

Now let's go to Daniel 12, since the rising of the two witnesses is tied to the time of the 7th trumpet.


Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


IMO, this would likely be the two witnesses..IOW..the holy people..the saints of the most high.

Walls
Oct 23rd 2012, 09:18 AM
To those who hold that the Witnesses are angels, all you have to do now is show biblically where angels can die and be resurrected.

To those who hold that one is Moses, all you have to do now is show that Moses, a man, can die twice (Heb.9:27)

To those who hold that they are Churches, all you have to do is show that scripture shows more than one Church per city, especially in the city where the Lord was crucified.

To those who hold they are Churches, all you have to show is that the Church;

has the power to shut heaven that it cannot rain "all the days of it's testimony"
has the ability to kill men with fire from it's mouth. The Church is an "Ambassador of reconciliation" not an instrument of death (2nd Cor.5:18-19)
can have a "dead body"
can have a dead body than can be "prevented from being put in a grave"
is given to torment "them that dwell on the earth"

ross3421
Oct 23rd 2012, 11:46 AM
To those who hold that the Witnesses are angels, all you have to do now is show biblically where angels can die and be resurrected.

It is not the angel ie spirit which dies but the body.

Walls
Oct 23rd 2012, 12:22 PM
It is not the angel ie spirit which dies but the body.

If you have established "them" (the two witnesses) as angels, which you have, "... overcome them and kill them" in the normal usage of grammar must mean "overcome and kill the two angels". But even so, the question still stands unanswered. Where is biblical proof that angels can be killed, even in body?

ross3421
Oct 23rd 2012, 03:37 PM
If you have established "them" (the two witnesses) as angels, which you have, "... overcome them and kill them" in the normal usage of grammar must mean "overcome and kill the two angels". But even so, the question still stands unanswered. Where is biblical proof that angels can be killed, even in body?

First I would like to know iIn your opinion what angels are...... meaning do you see tham as a seperate class of spirits? Spirits which are different in some way, if so in what way? Are there angel spirits and human spirits?? What is our spirit when we die? When are angels spirits and if other spirits created? Also who do you think the angel of the Lord reprsents? A the last where do we get our spirit from?

-----------------------------

The angel of the Lord

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

We are told from scripture that the voice of the Lord raises the dead. Above we are told that the Lord's voice is of an archangel.

2 And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”

4 So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”

5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

The truth is God can be appear in whatever he wants, a bush, a donkey, a man, an angel.

Re 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.
Re 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Re 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Re 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


Angels indwell all types of flesh (the good, the bad, the ugly) which is killed seen as a herd of swine or mankind at the time of the flood... There is not a seperate class of spirits wherein angels are different. A spirit is a spirit which don't forget we have one too....................

John146
Oct 23rd 2012, 05:22 PM
I think I have a lot of this somewhat figured out, except I can't find an easy way to express this in writing. IMO, most of the answers are found in the book of Daniel, and is tied to the 1260 days, and that there are possibly two 1260 day periods, when added together equals the entire 70th week. I will say this, tho in the past I would have indicated otherwise, these two witnesses are not two literal individuals, such as two literal persons or two literal angels. That's the direction I'm currently leaning, but unfortunately it would be too tedious for me to try and express this all in writing.

Look at this clue for instance.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.


First of all, mathematically speaking, the 3 and 1/2 days here, this is equal to 42 months, which is equal to a time, times, and the dividing of time, which is equal to 1260 days.

What does Daniel tell us about this beast making war with?

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


IMO, this would be this three days and an half mentioned in Revelation 11, which would equal this time and times and the dividing of time in Daniel 7.

We also see this in Daniel 8.

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Then we have another clue in Rev 10 which seems to provide more clarity when consulting Daniel 12.

Revelation 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


This tells us the mystery of God should be finished, in the days of the voice of the seventh angel.

Now let's go to Daniel 12, since the rising of the two witnesses is tied to the time of the 7th trumpet.


Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


IMO, this would likely be the two witnesses..IOW..the holy people..the saints of the most high.I agree with your conclusion but I come to it in a bit different way. Compare these verses:

Rev 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses...7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 13:1 ...And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea...7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

If these verses are parallel, as I believe, then that would equate "the two witnesses" with "the saints". Each verse speaks of the beast making war with and overcoming certain people. In Rev 13 it speaks of the beast rising up out of the sea and then making war with "the saints". In Rev 11 it speaks of the best rising out of the bottomless pit and making war with "the two witnesses". If the beast rising out of the sea and the beast rising out of the bottomless pit are speaking of the same thing then it would only follow that "the two witnesses" and "the saints" are the same entity.

The Beginner
Oct 23rd 2012, 06:50 PM
I agree with your conclusion but I come to it in a bit different way. Compare these verses:

Rev 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses...7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 13:1 ...And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea...7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

If these verses are parallel, as I believe, then that would equate "the two witnesses" with "the saints". Each verse speaks of the beast making war with and overcoming certain people. In Rev 13 it speaks of the beast rising up out of the sea and then making war with "the saints". In Rev 11 it speaks of the best rising out of the bottomless pit and making war with "the two witnesses". If the beast rising out of the sea and the beast rising out of the bottomless pit are speaking of the same thing then it would only follow that "the two witnesses" and "the saints" are the same entity.

It says the two witnesses prophesy for 1260 Days (3 1/2 years) and "if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner." Yet in Rev 13 it says "the beast is given authority for 42 months (3 1/2 Years)... and it was granted to him to make war with the saints and overcome them. (Rev 13:5-7)"

Daniel 7 likewise says that the Beast "shall persecute the saints and they will be given into his hands for a "time times and half a time" (Dan 7:25).

On one hand, the two witnesses are being protected and God is unleashing a judgment is against any who wish do them harm for the entire 3 1/2 years and yet on the other hand, it says the saints are allowed to be killed by the Beast for the entire 3 1/2 years. How do you reconcile this if they are the exact same entity? IOW if they are the same group, how can the "two witnesses/saints" be both protected and killed by the Beast during the 3 1/2 years?

Walls
Oct 23rd 2012, 08:11 PM
First I would like to know iIn your opinion what angels are...... meaning do you see tham as a seperate class of spirits? Spirits which are different in some way, if so in what way? Are there angel spirits and human spirits?? What is our spirit when we die? When are angels spirits and if other spirits created? Also who do you think the angel of the Lord reprsents? A the last where do we get our spirit from?

In order of your questions;

Angels are spirit-beings who minister to God (Psa.104:4; Heb.1:7). They have ethereal bodies, and can eat and mate with women.
Men are souls who have a spirit (Gen.2:7, 12:5, 46:15, 18, 22; Act.2:41 etc. etc.). The spirit is the enlivening part, or vitality, of man. At death the spirit returns to God and the body returns to the elements of the earth (Eccl.3:21, 12:7; Lk.23:46). The soul, which is the man, goes to Hades to wait for the resurrection (Matt.12:40; Eph.4:9-10) when the three parts are joined together again.
Demons are disembodied spirits who seek a body. If they cannot have a body their dwelling is in the sea (Matt.8:28-32). Their origin is not established in the bible but they are different to angels. They are judged at the Great White Throne when the "sea gives up her dead." Satan is Lord over fallen angels and demons (Mk.3:22-23; Lk.11:18).
We get our spirit from God's breath (Gen.2:7; Job.33:4). So does every living creature (Gen.6:17; Eccl.3:21 etc.).
The Angel of the Lord depends on the context. In your context it is God in the Person of Jesus Christ.


But back to your initial posting. You have one thing in your favor. The two witnesses are not named so they "might" be what you say. But if you were a detective and went by circumstantial evidence, they must be Enoch and Elijah. Both lived at the time of great judgment - Enoch before the flood and Elijah at the time of Israel's crisis. One (Enoch) was a Gentile, and one was a Jew (Elijah). The time and place of Revelation Chapter 11 is universal (world) judgement with its center at Jerusalem, with a Gentile king (Beast) ruling over both Jew and Gentile from Jerusalem. Both men have not died yet so they can be killed. Both were zealous for God. A "Candlestick" is generally a "Witness" in typology (Matt.5:15 etc.), and these two are called that openly in Revelation 11:3. The time of no rain is the same time that Elijah shut up heaven and it is the same time as the length of the Great Tribulation (a time, times, and half a time, forty two months, 1260 days). Elijah called fire from heaven and slew 400 false prophets single handed. Although Moses turned water to blood and put plagues on the earth, Moses has died already, his body was fought for (Jude 1:9) and he was resurrected to stand on the Mount of Transfiguration with the Lord (Matt.17:3). He cannot die again.

Hope this helps.

divaD
Oct 24th 2012, 12:07 AM
It says the two witnesses prophesy for 1260 Days (3 1/2 years) and "if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner." Yet in Rev 13 it says "the beast is given authority for 42 months (3 1/2 Years)... and it was granted to him to make war with the saints and overcome them. (Rev 13:5-7)"

Daniel 7 likewise says that the Beast "shall persecute the saints and they will be given into his hands for a "time times and half a time" (Dan 7:25).

On one hand, the two witnesses are being protected and God is unleashing a judgment is against any who wish do them harm for the entire 3 1/2 years and yet on the other hand, it says the saints are allowed to be killed by the Beast for the entire 3 1/2 years. How do you reconcile this if they are the exact same entity? IOW if they are the same group, how can the "two witnesses/saints" be both protected and killed by the Beast during the 3 1/2 years?



If I may add my 2 cents...the passages that Eric supplied, this would be after the thousand two hundred and threescore days mentioned in Revelation 11:3. So this is why I was saying in another post, possibly 2 periods of 1260 days. That equals 2520 days. 2520 divided by 360(a prophetic year)..this equals 7..thus the remaining 70th week.

Apparently I interpret the book of Daniel in general, different than a lot do. I simply believe Daniel 9:27 has to be interpreted using other chapters in Daniel, such as 10-12, in order to see the bigger picture. Unfortunately many believe Dan 9:27 to be about Jesus, and that it's on;y a coincidence that other portions of Daniel seem to expand in greater detail, this final week, especially the latter half of it, which I personally think is this same period of time as the 3 and 1/2 days in Revelation 11:10, with the thousand two hundred and threescore days in Revelation 11:3 representing the first half of the 70th week.

IMO, the math certainly proves the following, that these all equal 1260 days.

...a time and times and the dividing of time..Daniel 7:25
...a time, times, and an half...Daniel 12:7
...forty and two months...Revelation 11:2
...a thousand two hundred and threescore days...Revelation 11:3
...three days and an half...Revelation 11:10
...a time, and times, and half a time...Revelation 12:14

Unfortunately tho, not everyone is interested in math like I am, not that I'm a mathematician or anything, because I'm certainly not...so most would find the math unconvincing. In the past I would have taken the 1260 days to mean 1260 literal days, tho now I'm not so convinced that has to be the case. But at the same time tho, I'm not saying they aren't or can't be a literal 1260 days. But I no longer think the 3 and 1/2 days in Revelation 11:10 should be understood as literal days, but should be understood as the latter half of the 70th week instead.


I'm just happy Eric and I agree about this, tho we come to our conclusions in a different manner. I just wish he could see that I'm possibly on to something here tho, and that this is somehow linked to the 70th week. But unfortunately, I already know how Eric views the 70th week, and especially Dan 9:27. So I don't see him changing his mind anytime soon about it...which is cool...not complaining or anything.

divaD
Oct 24th 2012, 12:24 AM
I agree with your conclusion but I come to it in a bit different way. Compare these verses:

Rev 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses...7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 13:1 ...And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea...7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

If these verses are parallel, as I believe, then that would equate "the two witnesses" with "the saints". Each verse speaks of the beast making war with and overcoming certain people. In Rev 13 it speaks of the beast rising up out of the sea and then making war with "the saints". In Rev 11 it speaks of the best rising out of the bottomless pit and making war with "the two witnesses". If the beast rising out of the sea and the beast rising out of the bottomless pit are speaking of the same thing then it would only follow that "the two witnesses" and "the saints" are the same entity.


I agree..they are parallel. And I would say that Rev 13:1 occurs after the 2 witnesses prophesy in sackcloth a thousand two hundred and threescore days..the point being..that that makes the period of time in both passages you mentioned, the same time period. In the past I used to take the 3 and 1/2 days literally. I no longer think that is how those days should be understood. You've influenced me more than you've probably realized(our past discussions and all, plus your discussions with others), yet we are not entirely on the same page because I'm still viewing the 70th week differently than you. But at least we're making progress here, the fact I'm no longer debating you about the two witnesses nor this 3 and 1/2 days, the fact neither one of us are taking either of these literally, tho in the past that was not the case on my part.

tango
Oct 24th 2012, 01:10 AM
"Two witnesses" is actually a mistranslation. The original text said "my true witness", which refers to only one person. And it's me.

Sorry if that's a crushing disappointment to anyone :)

divaD
Oct 24th 2012, 01:40 AM
"Two witnesses" is actually a mistranslation. The original text said "my true witness", which refers to only one person. And it's me.

Sorry if that's a crushing disappointment to anyone :)



Why are you concluding it's a mistranslation? What original text are you referring to? I realize that the latter part of your post shouldn't be taken seriously, so, should one not take the former part of your post serious as well? This part..."Two witnesses" is actually a mistranslation. The original text said "my true witness", which refers to only one person.

Beckrl
Oct 24th 2012, 02:36 AM
If anything the two witnesses are two (churches as candelsticks) which John describes for his readers as "Apostles and Prophets" (Rev.18:20) and of "Prophets and Saints" (Rev.18:24) both of which were killed by the Beast/Whore.

divaD
Oct 24th 2012, 03:17 AM
If anything the two witnesses are two (churches as candelsticks) which John describes for his readers as "Apostles and Prophets" (Rev.18:20) and of "Prophets and Saints" (Rev.18:24) both of which were killed by the Beast/Whore.



Here's what the text states. The KJV in my case.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


I wouldn't think olive trees and candlesticks are the same thing in this context, since you have to have at least 2 separate entities to even equal two, at least i would think so. So one witness might be the two olive trees, while the other witness might be the 2 candlesticks. In Scriptures, it seems that olive trees sometimes symbolized Israel, while candlesticks sometimes symbolized churches. So the two witnesses would be Israel and the church, when combined equals the holy people, the saints. That's what I'm thinking anyway.. right or wrong.. I don't know.

tango
Oct 24th 2012, 01:44 PM
Why are you concluding it's a mistranslation? What original text are you referring to? I realize that the latter part of your post shouldn't be taken seriously, so, should one not take the former part of your post serious as well? This part..."Two witnesses" is actually a mistranslation. The original text said "my true witness", which refers to only one person.

As you spotted the whole post was somewhat tongue in cheek. It just makes me smirk and sigh a little when so many people are so willing to post that "the two witnesses are..." as if it were a done deal and any other viewpoint is wrong.

As far as I can see the two witnesses may be Michael and Gabriel, they may be two out of Moses Elijah and Enoch, they may be you and me. Endless pontification about just who they are seems so utterly pointless - if we are still alive when they are revealed we'll probably figure it out then soon enough, at which point being too caught up in our own theories about who they are could be actively unhelpful.

If we're utterly convinced that the witnesses are Moses and Enoch and then Elijah turns up calling down fire and droughts we could assume he's an agent of the beast and ignore him, whereas if we are truly open to what God wants to show us then hopefully we'd recognise him (Elijah) for who he was. Ultimately just about everything I've ever read about who the two witnesses are seem to quote a verse here and a verse there, add lots of theory, lots of speculating to join the dots, and a conclusion presented as if it were fact rather than opinion.

As far as I can tell the two witnesses are just as likely to be you and me as any two other people, so I'm happy to run with that. If the witnesses aren't the two of us then we'll figure out who they are if we're still around then, and if they are I'll meet you under the hail of fire and brimstone some day ;)

divaD
Oct 24th 2012, 02:21 PM
As far as I can see the two witnesses may be Michael and Gabriel

If these two witnesses are two literal individuals, I would for sure rule these out as even a remote possibility. Literal angels don't fit the context, especially if the context is meaning 2 literal individuals literally die for 3 and 1/2 literal days.

In the past I was certainly guilty of this, and still am to some degree, but as far as the book of Revelation is concerned, if folks are mainly trying to understand most of this in the literal sense, they're likely never going to be in sync with what John was trying to convey via his visions. I'm not suggesting literal events don't occur within the book of Revelation. I'm just suggesting that when 2 witnesses are seen having been killed, perhaps that is symbolizing those whom the beast makes war with, and not meaning 2 literal individuals only. This would also mean that the 3 and 1/2 days symbolizes a period of time far greater than a a literal 3 and 1/2 days. Despite all of this, I still find it very logical to place the 1000 years after Christ returns, because at the beginning of the 1000 years is when those that were killed by the beast, had gotten victory over the beast, they come alive. To put the 1000 years before Christ returns, that would be like putting the cart before the horse IMO.

ross3421
Oct 24th 2012, 05:36 PM
If these two witnesses are two literal individuals, I would for sure rule these out as even a remote possibility. Literal angels don't fit the context, especially if the context is meaning 2 literal individuals literally die for 3 and 1/2 literal days.

You are coming from a preconcieved view that "angels" can't either die or inhabit people. First angels do not die, no spirit ever dies but remains forever. Secondly, all angels are spirits and vice versa all spirit are angels. I know most like to catogorize angels as a seperate class of spirits but it is just not the case. Hence spirits of course do inhabit flesh, thus angels can inhabit flesh. Prime example is the angel of the Lord.


I'm just suggesting that when 2 witnesses are seen having been killed, perhaps that is symbolizing those whom the beast makes war with, and not meaning 2 literal individuals only. This would also mean that the 3 and 1/2 days symbolizes a period of time far greater than a a literal 3 and 1/2 days.

If you start thinking like this and teach others in the is view the whole book loses it validity. For example if you say to an unbeliever the two individuals are not really killed and that the days mentioned 3.5 are not but then say hey by the way Jesus is the only way to heaven this may cause some to doubt.

divaD
Oct 24th 2012, 06:40 PM
You are coming from a preconcieved view that "angels" can't either die or inhabit people. First angels do not die, no spirit ever dies but remains forever. Secondly, all angels are spirits and vice versa all spirit are angels. I know most like to catogorize angels as a seperate class of spirits but it is just not the case. Hence spirits of course do inhabit flesh, thus angels can inhabit flesh. Prime example is the angel of the Lord.


.


But the thing is, I'm no longer taking that chapter in the literal sense. But if I were, I can't think of one place in the entire Bible where angels stand in for men and then take on human punishments, such as being killed. You do realize angels are far superior to us in many ways, right? No way are any of us even remotely on the same intellectual level as angels, nor are any of us as powerful as angels.
One angel, if God allowed, would probably possess enough power to destroy the USA in the blink of an eye for example. So how is it then, that someone would be able to kill a cpl of them for 3 and a half days? And in case you hadn't noticed, Rev 11 depicts the two witnesses rising bodily into heaven, the fact that others witness this. So if these angels were in human bodies, for some reason then, they ascend to heaven in these temporary human bodies they were housed in during this time. How does one make sense of all of that? I would think the 2 witnesses rising would indicate the rapture or something. Angels don't need to be raptured into heaven or anywhere else above, since that's where they naturally dwell to begin with.

And then, if it's only 2 literal men, why just 2? And to top it off, coming from a literal perspective of Rev 11, one sees the folks on earth will be utterly surprised when they see someone such as Moses and Elijah stand up on there feet after being killed, yet not acting surprised at all, when these 2 first allegedly return to the earth, the fact they're ancient people from millenniums ago. You don't think CNN or someone wouldn't find that very alarming and very newsworthy? Yet nowhere in the book of revelation do we ever see a picture painted like that. But in reality, if it were to happen, it would make headlines worldwide and be a top story at the time. So just based on that alone, Rev 11 shouldn't be understand in the literal sense, when it comes to these 2 witnesses and this 3 and 1/2 days.




If you start thinking like this and teach others in the is view the whole book loses it validity. For example if you say to an unbeliever the two individuals are not really killed and that the days mentioned 3.5 are not but then say hey by the way Jesus is the only way to heaven this may cause some to doubt.

When did I ever suggest no one would be literally killed? I'm pretty certain when the beast makes war with the two witnesses after they finish their testimonies, there's going to be some literal blood shed, folks literally being killed, etc.

John146
Oct 24th 2012, 09:13 PM
I'm just happy Eric and I agree about this,Me too, since we rarely agree on end times issues.


I just wish he could see that I'm possibly on to something here tho, and that this is somehow linked to the 70th week.That will never happen.


But unfortunately, I already know how Eric views the 70th week, and especially Dan 9:27.And my mind is made up on that.


So I don't see him changing his mind anytime soon about itYep. :)

John146
Oct 24th 2012, 09:16 PM
I agree..they are parallel. And I would say that Rev 13:1 occurs after the 2 witnesses prophesy in sackcloth a thousand two hundred and threescore days..the point being..that that makes the period of time in both passages you mentioned, the same time period. In the past I used to take the 3 and 1/2 days literally. I no longer think that is how those days should be understood. You've influenced me more than you've probably realized(our past discussions and all, plus your discussions with others), yet we are not entirely on the same page because I'm still viewing the 70th week differently than you. But at least we're making progress here, the fact I'm no longer debating you about the two witnesses nor this 3 and 1/2 days, the fact neither one of us are taking either of these literally, tho in the past that was not the case on my part.It's nice that we agree on some aspects of this, so I don't want to ruin that. ;)

However, I'm a bit confused as to how you can see the 3 and 1/2 days as being figurative rather than literal (I agree with that) but you can't see any of the mentions of "42 months", "1260 days" or "a time, times and half a time" as being figurative rather than referring to a literal 3 and 1/2 year period of time (or multiple 3 and 1/2 year periods of time, depending on how you look at it).

John146
Oct 24th 2012, 09:21 PM
It says the two witnesses prophesy for 1260 Days (3 1/2 years) and "if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner." Yet in Rev 13 it says "the beast is given authority for 42 months (3 1/2 Years)... and it was granted to him to make war with the saints and overcome them. (Rev 13:5-7)"

Daniel 7 likewise says that the Beast "shall persecute the saints and they will be given into his hands for a "time times and half a time" (Dan 7:25).

On one hand, the two witnesses are being protected and God is unleashing a judgment is against any who wish do them harm for the entire 3 1/2 years and yet on the other hand, it says the saints are allowed to be killed by the Beast for the entire 3 1/2 years. How do you reconcile this if they are the exact same entity? IOW if they are the same group, how can the "two witnesses/saints" be both protected and killed by the Beast during the 3 1/2 years?I don't see the 42 months during which the two witnesses testify as being the same time period as the 42 months during which the beast makes war with the saints. You assume that the 42 months of Rev 11 is the same time period as the 42 months of Rev 13 but I don't see it that way. In Rev 11, the two witnesses testify for 42 months and then the beast rises and makes war with them. In Rev 13, it speaks of the beast rising and then making war with the saints for 42 months. So, those time periods can't be the same if the mention of the beast rising from the bottomless pit in Rev 11:7 is the same event as the beast rising out of the sea in Rev 13.

divaD
Oct 24th 2012, 09:55 PM
However, I'm a bit confused as to how you can see the 3 and 1/2 days as being figurative rather than literal (I agree with that) but you can't see any of the mentions of "42 months", "1260 days" or "a time, times and half a time" as being figurative rather than referring to a literal 3 and 1/2 year period of time (or multiple 3 and 1/2 year periods of time, depending on how you look at it).


In an earlier post I did say the following.


In the past I would have taken the 1260 days to mean 1260 literal days, tho now I'm not so convinced that has to be the case. But at the same time tho, I'm not saying they aren't or can't be a literal 1260 days. But I no longer think the 3 and 1/2 days in Revelation 11:10 should be understood as literal days, but should be understood as the latter half of the 70th week instead.


IOW, I haven't entirely made up my mind as of yet. But, if I'm going to try and connect all of this to the 70th week, then it would only be logical that this 1260 days are meaning literal days, since the 69 weeks before that would have to consist of two 1260 day periods for each week. IOW..69 times 2520, which equals 173880 days. Divide that by 360(prophetic days)..that equals 483. Add 7 to that, that equals 490..thus the entire 70 weeks. So even tho others aren't into math like I probably am, one should really give it a try, since I'm convinced the 1260 days are linked to the 70th week.

Raybob
Oct 24th 2012, 10:15 PM
...IOW, I haven't entirely made up my mind as of yet. But, if I'm going to try and connect all of this to the 70th week, then it would only be logical that this 1260 days are meaning literal days, since the 69 weeks before that would have to consist of two 1260 day periods for each week. IOW..69 times 2520, which equals 173880 days. Divide that by 360(prophetic days)..that equals 483. Add 7 to that, that equals 490..thus the entire 70 weeks. So even tho others aren't into math like I probably am, one should really give it a try, since I'm convinced the 1260 days are linked to the 70th week.

Sounds like a lot of numerology to prove a flawed theory.

boangry
Oct 24th 2012, 10:19 PM
Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Re 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

First we see that these two witnesses (prophets) are also two candlesticks which stand before God

What do the two candlesticks represent? 2 of the 7 churches.
Who then are the two witnesses? 2 angels of the 7 churches.

Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Would Moses or Elijah be two angles of the 7 churches? No. There are two angels in scripture which the bible says stands for God.


Gabriel and Michael


Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Lu 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God;and am sent to speak unto thee, and to show thee these glad tidings.

Da 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

Ive never considered the two olive trees to be angels before, sounds strange... Yet now that Im thinking about it, it actually makes more and more sense, as off the top of my head there are some things to take into consideration... actually Im going to go away and study and ponder, thanks for the study topic :)

divaD
Oct 24th 2012, 10:37 PM
Sounds like a lot of numerology to prove a flawed theory.



Since you feel that way, then why not show how it's a flawed theory? My point in the last post was only to show that the first 69 weeks are to be understood literally. So no reason to not think the same about the final 70th week. So while 3 and 1/2 days might not be literal, but instead mean 1260 days, 42 months, etc, that doesn't necessarily mean the 1260 days have to be non literal because the 3 and1/2 days are non literal. It's simple logic to me. the 3 and 1/2 days equals the 1260 days, which is 42 months, which in turn equals the great trib, which in turn equals the 2nd half of the 70th week. I don't know how anyone can not see that. Actually I do. They misinterpret most of the book of Daniel, and a good majority of Matt 24 and it's parallel accounts. But only IMO. And I certainly understand the exact same could be said about me as well.. that I'm the one misinterpreting those Scriptures I mentioned. I try not to be prideful. So I can admit that that's a possibility on my part.

Raybob
Oct 24th 2012, 10:45 PM
Since you feel that way, then why not show how it's a flawed theory? ..

The 70 weeks prophecy has been fulfilled. Christ finished the transgression, and made an end of sins, and made reconciliation for iniquity, and brought in everlasting righteousness, and sealed up the vision and prophecy, and was anointed the most Holy. This has been shown to you many times on this board.

divaD
Oct 24th 2012, 10:47 PM
The 70 weeks prophecy has been fulfilled. Christ finished the transgression, and made an end of sins, and made reconciliation for iniquity, and brought in everlasting righteousness, and to sealed up the vision and prophecy, and was anointed the most Holy. This has been shown to you many times on this board.

It's been shown to me, but it hasn't been proven to me..a big difference. :)

Walls
Oct 25th 2012, 08:59 AM
It's been shown to me, but it hasn't been proven to me..a big difference. :)

I have to concur. That there is at least a small gap between the 69th week which ends with the cutting off of the Messiah and the 70th week is shown by our Lord Jesus in Matthew chapter 24. The sequence of events is;

the destruction of the Temple which took another 40 years
the advent of MANY false Christs, which would no doubt take time
wars (which take time)
rumors of wars (which take time to see if they were rumors or not)
famines and pestilences (all which take time)
the disciples would be persecuted (over years no doubt as it turned out - Acts of the Apostles)
that this persecution would span "all nations" indicates time to spread the gospel
false prophets (plural)
the time it takes to preach the kingdom to "all the world"
"and then the end would come"


The word "therefore" in verse 15 is connected to the previous verse by grammar, and means "as a result of..." or "because of this..." or "consequently...". Thus, the Abomination of Desolation spoken of in Daniel is a subsequent event to provoke a reaction to the people watching all the preceding events.

From the mouth of none other than the Master Prophet Jesus do we have a series of events which lead up to a provocative act written about in Daniel. This all takes time, so whether the gap is 40, 440 or 4'440 years, there is a time gap between the 69th and 70th week.

As the 70 weeks concern Daniel's people, that is, Israel, I'll stick with the two thousand years predicted in Hosea 6:2. The following in Dan.9:24 have yet to be sorted out;

to make an end of sins (Israel will still embrace the Beast or Anti-Christ while still rejecting Messiah)
to make reconciliation for iniquity (Israel will bow to the effigy of the Beast in the Holy Place thus committing idolatry)
to bring in everlasting righteousness (everlasting righteousness is only applied to believers in Christ. The Jews still reject Christ)
to seal up the vision and prophecy (the reader may judge if the Abomination of Desolation has been in the Holy Place seeing as the Temple does not exist at this time)
to anoint the most Holy (while our Lord Jesus is surely the anointed and appointed One for salvation, He remains an outcast as King in Israel)

The Beginner
Oct 25th 2012, 05:16 PM
I don't see the 42 months during which the two witnesses testify as being the same time period as the 42 months during which the beast makes war with the saints. You assume that the 42 months of Rev 11 is the same time period as the 42 months of Rev 13 but I don't see it that way. In Rev 11, the two witnesses testify for 42 months and then the beast rises and makes war with them. In Rev 13, it speaks of the beast rising and then making war with the saints for 42 months. So, those time periods can't be the same if the mention of the beast rising from the bottomless pit in Rev 11:7 is the same event as the beast rising out of the sea in Rev 13.

IMO, Revelation 11:7 is not saying "at that moment" the Beast rises out of the Bottomless Pit. It merely says he is "the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit". It is not giving the "timing indicator" of but rather a description of who he is. This is similar to Rev 17:8, not a timing indicator but a description of his identity. Whereas Rev 13:1-2 does describe the event unfolding.

Do you believe the the "Holy City" is trampled underfoot by the Gentiles for 42 months "before" the beast is given authority to rule (Rev 13:5)? I would see these as the same.

Do you not see Rev 11:2 and Luke 21:24 talking about the same thing?

Rev 11:2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

If so, then do you believe the "times of the gentiles" were or will be "fulfilled" before the 42 months that the Beast is given authority to rule?

My point is this... if Luke 21:24 and Rev 11:2 are the same and if you believe that there is a 42 months season before the 42 months of Rev 13 (where the Beast is given authority) then the conclusion would demand that the "times of the Gentiles" to tread the Holy city must END (be fulfilled) before the Beast rises to authority. It would seem odd to me that the times of the Gentiles would not include the reign of the Beast....

Does that make sense what I am asking or do I need to say it differently?

Beckrl
Oct 25th 2012, 10:02 PM
Here's what the text states. The KJV in my case.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


I wouldn't think olive trees and candlesticks are the same thing in this context, since you have to have at least 2 separate entities to even equal two, at least i would think so. So one witness might be the two olive trees, while the other witness might be the 2 candlesticks. In Scriptures, it seems that olive trees sometimes symbolized Israel, while candlesticks sometimes symbolized churches. So the two witnesses would be Israel and the church, when combined equals the holy people, the saints. That's what I'm thinking anyway.. right or wrong.. I don't know.

In this context of the olive trees (oil) and the two candelsticks. The two candelsticks (churches /apostles and saints) have been give the (oil) the spirit to prophesy the word of God. In the temple there was 'two candelstick' standing before the holy place which required olive oil to remain to shine it's light. These 'two' as witnesses confirmed the truth and was like unto two cherubims that guard.

divaD
Oct 26th 2012, 03:05 AM
In this context of the olive trees (oil) and the two candelsticks. The two candelsticks (churches /apostles and saints) have been give the (oil) the spirit to prophesy the word of God. In the temple there was 'two candelstick' standing before the holy place which required olive oil to remain to shine it's light. These 'two' as witnesses confirmed the truth and was like unto two cherubims that guard.



A question. How are you determining olive trees equal oil? I fully realize what oil is symbolic of in your post, but where are you getting that olive trees equal oil? Are there other passages in Scripture that connect olive trees with oil, IOW the Spirit? I fully understand that oil oftentimes symbolizes the Spirit, but not certain whether olive trees do or not.

John146
Oct 26th 2012, 06:30 PM
IMO, Revelation 11:7 is not saying "at that moment" the Beast rises out of the Bottomless Pit. It merely says he is "the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit". It is not giving the "timing indicator" of but rather a description of who he is.So, you think the beast rises out of the bottomless pit but then waits to make war with the saints rather than making war with them immediately upon rising out of the bottomless pit? If that's what you're saying then I disagree. I don't see how that would make any sense.


This is similar to Rev 17:8, not a timing indicator but a description of his identity. Whereas Rev 13:1-2 does describe the event unfolding. Do you believe the beast immediately starts making war with the saints and overcoming them upon rising out of the sea? If so then why would it be the case that the beast doesn't immediately make war after rising up out of the bottomless pit?


Do you believe the the "Holy City" is trampled underfoot by the Gentiles for 42 months "before" the beast is given authority to rule (Rev 13:5)? I would see these as the same.I agree. Except I don't think "Gentiles" is a good translation of the Greek "ethnos" in Rev 11:2. I think "heathen" is better. And the "holy city" refers to the new Jerusalem (see Rev 21:2), which refers to the church ("the bride, the Lamb's wife" - Rev 21:9). The temple of God mentioned in Rev 11 is a heavenly temple (see Rev 11:19). It's not describing Gentiles versus Jews, it's describing the heathen (unbelievers) versus the church (believers), as is the case throughout the book of Revelation. The mistake you and others who believe like you make is thinking that the book of Revelation is mainly about Israel and the Jews. No, absolutely not. It's mainly about Jesus Christ and His church.


Do you not see Rev 11:2 and Luke 21:24 talking about the same thing?Absolutely not. Again, Rev 11 speaks of the heathen versus the church. But Luke 21:24 speaks of Gentiles versus the Jews. They have similarities between them but also major differences.


Rev 11:2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

If so, then do you believe the "times of the gentiles" were or will be "fulfilled" before the 42 months that the Beast is given authority to rule? The times of the Gentiles specifically refers to the time when Gentiles would trample upon earthly Jerusalem. It seems to me that they still are trampling upon Jerusalem and will continue to do so until the return of Christ. Unless I'm not properly understanding what exactly it means when it speaks of Jerusalem being trampled upon by Gentiles.


My point is this... if Luke 21:24 and Rev 11:2 are the same and if you believe that there is a 42 months season before the 42 months of Rev 13 (where the Beast is given authority) then the conclusion would demand that the "times of the Gentiles" to tread the Holy city must END (be fulfilled) before the Beast rises to authority. It would seem odd to me that the times of the Gentiles would not include the reign of the Beast....

Does that make sense what I am asking or do I need to say it differently?I understand what you're asking and what you're saying would be true if Luke 21:24 AND Rev 11:2 were speaking of the same thing, but I strongly believe that they are not.

John 8:32
Oct 30th 2012, 06:08 PM
It is not the angel ie spirit which dies but the body.

The spirit can die, be destroyed...

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

destroy:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Raybob
Oct 30th 2012, 06:30 PM
The spirit can die, be destroyed...

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

destroy:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Destroyed, in this sense, is not actually ceasing to exist, but eternally tormented.

Mar 9:43-44 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

ross3421
Oct 30th 2012, 07:39 PM
The spirit can die, be destroyed...

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

destroy:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Soul not spirit.....they are different. Sprits are everlasting entities.

boangry
Oct 30th 2012, 11:06 PM
If you have established "them" (the two witnesses) as angels, which you have, "... overcome them and kill them" in the normal usage of grammar must mean "overcome and kill the two angels". But even so, the question still stands unanswered. Where is biblical proof that angels can be killed, even in body?

Yes this is good question! of coarse if I now believe the two olive trees are angels that are (eye)witnesses of what God did on earth,
These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. zec 4:14

then the bible does clearly state that angels can be physically killed, read this for verification 'And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." rev 11:7

However you may believe my logic is flawed :lol:

So I will ask the question which is more preposterous can God die? or can angels die? Jacob wrestled with God in the flesh? can angels also be flesh?
Anyway I believe God allowed or gave the two witnesses and allowed them to die as another witness of the power of God and of the resurrection. Jesus said "I am the resurection, I am the life"

Something interesting...There has been an addition to verse 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Rev 11:3
The word “power” should not be there...

Will give “UNTO MY” is the greek word mou

G3450
μοῦ
mou
moo
The simpler from of G1700; of me: - I, me, mine (own), my.

“WILL GIVE” is: didomi
G1325
δίδωμι
didōmi
did'-o-mee
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which is used as an alternate in most of the tenses); to give (used in a very wide application, properly or by implication, literally or figuratively; greatly modified by the connection): - adventure, bestow, bring forth, commit, deliver (up), give, grant, hinder, make, minister, number, offer, have power, put, receive, set, shew, smite (+ with the hand), strike (+ with the palm of the hand), suffer, take, utter, yield.

A literal and simple translation of verse 3 would read.


"And I will give my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." Rev 11:3

Why was the Word “power” included? who knows, maybe because if they were men it doesn’t make sense unless inserted(the angels would already have power), That the most well known verse in the bible sounds familiar and people could see a connection that seems strange, that God has not only given his Son, but here HE also gave his two witnesses(olive trees)

In John 3:16 the same Word “didomi” is used “He Gave” his only begotten Son"

So if the apostles who were witnesses of the work the lord had done were prepared to die to this world, then it seems perfectly logical that angels who were witnesses of the Lord on earth who can take on flesh would also be prepared to die.

jhdobbins
Nov 2nd 2012, 03:13 PM
The times of the Gentiles specifically refers to the time when Gentiles would trample upon earthly Jerusalem. It seems to me that they still are trampling upon Jerusalem and will continue to do so until the return of Christ. Unless I'm not properly understanding what exactly it means when it speaks of Jerusalem being trampled upon by Gentiles.



Could it also be considered that this was during the time that Israel was not a state but then later became one in 1947?

John 8:32
Nov 2nd 2012, 04:09 PM
Soul not spirit.....they are different. Sprits are everlasting entities.

Yeah, I forgot...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

awestruckchild
Nov 9th 2012, 10:55 PM
Fascinating thread!
Thank you for it.

Truth only
Nov 13th 2012, 01:17 AM
I think it has to be Enoch (khanowke in Hebrew) and Elijah (Eliyahuw in Hebrew),they were both taken up by the Almighty and have not died yet until the appointed time.

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he not; for God took him.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw , and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more:

Barthaneous
Jul 13th 2016, 11:00 PM
Brethren it is evident that John was the Spirit of Elijah . For Christ himself spoke it clearly. However Just as the Jews asked John the Baptists "Are you Elijah ?" and he said " No" , YET he was. For he was John but had the Spirit of Elijah in him. Yet in Malachi 4:5 , It is Clear that Elijah's spirit shall come again. Because when Jesus our Lord was alive on the earth he was not recognized by the Jews because the Jews only held the final day of Judgment "that terrible day" as the day of the Lord and the day of the Lords Judgment has not yet come.

However these anointed ones who stand before the Lord are the ones that were shown to Peter and the other disciples at the transfiguration. Moses and Elijah..
But for those again to consider the 2 witnesses to be the ACTUAL Moses and Elijah is not accurate . Due to the nature in which they have already been translated. And by Translated they have been made like Enoch who is now like unto the Angels, which have new bodies and can not die.."For no flesh can stand before the Lord"
These two men who are here now with you , shall be manifest when the Anti-Christ that great one appears from heaven. He shall come down like unto the Lord and will manifest himself during the time of great tribulation. But by this manifestation which is the same time as when the chains that held back the fallen shall be loosened , this time the Lord God himself Jesus Christ will open his mouth and anoint these two men with Power to do Gods will and however they want to show Gods power God himself for the first time will let them have free control on the gifts of God and they will do miracles and wonders "AS OFTEN AS THEY WILL" as the Lord said in Revelations 11.

These two men however are not mere men, but are men fashioned by the Lords own hands and after the heart of God. They will be in image opposite of each other in size and in color, but in deed and in Spirit they will seem to be nearly identical .

The world has given you so-called heros , and taken names of old and made them into entertainment idols.. But these two witnesses of God will not only do what you have seen and heard of from the heros of the world but will do the things in Christ so awesomely that the world will hate them. Because what they will stand for is the purification of the People of Israel and Israel God means his Children who follow the Lord Jesus Christ and testify that by his blood the whole world can be saved and through non else.

Prepare the way of the Lord. Make fast and get ready. For the separation of mens hearts towards one another is waxing cold. Soon that Spirit Elijah shall be made manifest and the great abomination that is the Devil shall soon show his face. Thus bringing in the time of the Witnesses. Then when they are done preaching the final end of the earth shall be nigh.

God speed brothers in Christ and may the Living God grant you Joy in all temptation and tribulations.. Rejoice For our War is already won!

randyk
Jul 14th 2016, 02:04 AM
Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Re 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

First we see that these two witnesses (prophets) are also two candlesticks which stand before God

What do the two candlesticks represent? 2 of the 7 churches.
Who then are the two witnesses? 2 angels of the 7 churches.

Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Would Moses or Elijah be two angles of the 7 churches? No. There are two angels in scripture which the bible says stands for God.


Gabriel and Michael

Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Lu 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God;and am sent to speak unto thee, and to show thee these glad tidings.

Da 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

I can't see that. For one, angels Michael and Gabriel don't get killed by the Beast. Secondly, they are not given these names. Their being called "candlesticks" does not mean they are two of the seven churches simply because they are also called "candlesticks." My assumption would be that if the 7 churches in Asia are termed "candlesticks" then churches everywhere are also to be called "candlesticks." It is a generic reference to gatherings of Christians who represent the presence of Christ, the light of Christ.

Just as the churches in general are "candlesticks," so are individual Christian ministers "candlesticks." All ministers of Christ are "candlesticks." Why then are these two prophets singled out as "candlesticks?" It is not because they are "candlesticks," but because they are candlesticks who prophesy in a special time in history and at a special place in history. All ministers of Christ are "candlesticks," but not all do what these two prophets do. They minister during the 3.5 years of Tribulation. They will witness to the truth at a time when true worshippers are "measured at the temple of God." That is, in Jerusalem there will be true worshippers who must be counted by God. This is while the holy city is being trampled and oppressed. But these two prophets appear to undergird the faith of those who continue to stand in righteousness.

It is not important that we know the names of these two prophets. They have the power of Elijah, and the miracles of Moses. They appear to be witnessing to Israel, which has need of deliverance such as she did in the time of Moses and Elijah.

melchi2022
Sep 9th 2018, 09:13 PM
o brother are you being serious?

RabbiKnife
Sep 9th 2018, 09:57 PM
Did I miss the two names?

Walls
Sep 9th 2018, 10:11 PM
Did I miss the two names?

As you are probably aware, there is a newer thread on this. If you missed it, here is my argument in posting #7.

https://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/275289-Two-witnesses

If you read it - disregard all.