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God's legacy
Nov 2nd 2012, 02:37 AM
Is God sending a message to the people of the United States in this election year?

God has used weather and the elements to correct his people before.

Could this be a warning for us to repent from the immorality and irreverence embedded in our society today, or is it just another storm?

IMINXTC
Nov 2nd 2012, 02:39 AM
When taking all into account, the nation as a whole, I've never doubted it.

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 2nd 2012, 02:50 AM
Is God sending a message to the people of the United States in this election year?

God has used weather and the elements to correct his people before.

Could this be a warning for us to repent from the immorality and irreverence embedded in our society today, or is it just another storm?

You can never know for sure.... But know that God is always Sovereign in all things and in all ways.

moonglow
Nov 2nd 2012, 03:08 AM
When taking all into account, the nation as a whole, I've never doubted it.

Never doubted what?


God's legacy

Hurricane Sandy
Is God sending a message to the people of the United States in this election year?

God has used weather and the elements to correct his people before.

Could this be a warning for us to repent from the immorality and irreverence embedded in our society today, or is it just another storm?

The problem I have with even thinking this is God..is first, while yes He did do many amazing things in the bible...He always, always, sent a prophet first to warn the people and told them exactly what would happen. Now I am sure there will be some people who will claim to be prophets that do some back tracking and try to say, they warned people. There prophesies are usually very vague though and could mean anything.

The problem with saying God did this, is we can say that about every natural disaster that happens anywhere in the world because we will always find sinners there. Always! So that begs the question is God pounding the earth on a regular basis in varies places because of sinners? A warning? If so people in all these thousands upon thousands of years, aren't getting the message very well. :cool: Its ineffective. Its ineffective because we are trying to apply what God was doing in the OT to now, completely discounting what Christ did for everyone. There is no prophet in a city wailing for people to repent and turn back to God...that is actually sent by God!

In the NT there is this example:

Acts 11
27 And in these days prophets came from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28 Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. 29 Then the disciples, each according to his ability, determined to send relief to the brethren dwelling in Judea. 30 This they also did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.

Not one word is said about anyone needing to repent...or this was a punishment from God. They were told ahead of time so they could help the people. Same thing with the Pharaoh in Egypt who dreamed about a seven year famine coming. Only Joseph was able (through God) to understand the dream then appointed the Pharaohs right hand man so they could save countless people from starvation. It wasn't a punishment from God. It was used to move and shape His people though and reunite Joseph with his family again. Not all disasters are punishments by God but simply because we live in a fallen world.

Think about it like this...when God created Paradise it was perfect right? In Genesis one everything God made was good. Adam and Eve did not need clothes or shoes. Why do we need clothes and shoes now? Beside covering our nakedness, so we won't be ashamed...those things are used for protection. From the heat, from the cold...from the rain, the snow. And image how bad our feet would be with no shoes! The garden was SO perfect, that Adam and Eve did not need those protections from the elements. But God cursed the ground when they sinned and everything changed. Sin, literally has affected this world through all kinds of natural disasters that really aren't 'natural'...wasn't how God made things to start with.

Having said that...I won't say God didn't have something to do with this...but not as a punishment..
IF God sent this...it wasn't to punish...but to change something...its been bugging me for days now...something has changed and I have a feeling it has something to do with how the election will go..because as the bible says in Romans 13, its God that appoints our leaders.

It will be very interesting to see how things go in these days ahead, that is for sure.

(edited to add..I am no prophet! They have been talking about this on the news for days too about how the storm will affect the election)

God bless

little watchman
Nov 2nd 2012, 05:50 AM
There are many reasons why I don't think natural disasters are necessarily meant to show God's displeasure. Think of the storm on the Sea of Galilee that Jesus rebuked. Was God angry at Jesus, and Jesus rebuked God? Or did Jesus rebuke some form of natural evil or spiritual evil? As an Arminian, I acknowledge that God allows natural and spiritual evil to have power in this age because love requires freedom, freedom requires risk, and this freedom must be irrevocable within limits until the judgment. I also think that natural disasters are not necessarily judgments from God because those "apostles" who most loudly say they are judgments are not my friends, nor are they friends of the United States.

John 8:32
Nov 2nd 2012, 01:59 PM
Is God sending a message to the people of the United States in this election year?

God has used weather and the elements to correct his people before.

Could this be a warning for us to repent from the immorality and irreverence embedded in our society today, or is it just another storm?

He is sending a message, but not about the election, about behavior...

Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
Deu 28:16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
Deu 28:17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.
Deu 28:18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
Deu 28:19 Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
Deu 28:20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.
Deu 28:21 The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 28:22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.
Deu 28:23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.
Deu 28:24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
Deu 28:25 The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.
Deu 28:26 And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.
Deu 28:27 The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.
Deu 28:28 The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:
Deu 28:29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.
Deu 28:30 Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not gather the grapes thereof.
Deu 28:31 Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof: thine ass shall be violently taken away from before thy face, and shall not be restored to thee: thy sheep shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them.
Deu 28:32 Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long: and there shall be no might in thine hand.
Deu 28:33 The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway:
Deu 28:34 So that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.
Deu 28:35 The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head.
Deu 28:36 The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.
Deu 28:37 And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.
Deu 28:38 Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather but little in; for the locust shall consume it.
Deu 28:39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.
Deu 28:40 Thou shalt have olive trees throughout all thy coasts, but thou shalt not anoint thyself with the oil; for thine olive shall cast his fruit.
Deu 28:41 Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity.
Deu 28:42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume.
Deu 28:43 The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.
Deu 28:44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.
Deu 28:45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
Deu 28:46 And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.
Deu 28:47 Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;
Deu 28:48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.
Deu 28:49 The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;
Deu 28:50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:
Deu 28:51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.
Deu 28:52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
Deu 28:53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:
Deu 28:54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:
Deu 28:55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.
Deu 28:56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,
Deu 28:57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.
Deu 28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
Deu 28:59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
Deu 28:60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
Deu 28:61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
Deu 28:62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God.
Deu 28:63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
Deu 28:65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:
Deu 28:66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:
Deu 28:67 In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.
Deu 28:68 And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.

Walley10
Nov 2nd 2012, 02:50 PM
Could be I don't really know for sure. I still have family members without power or anything lately..

awestruckchild
Nov 8th 2012, 01:43 AM
It is GOD who brings the rains from their storehouses.
It is GOD who brings a storm anywhere at any time.
I suppose there are some who have a hard time with that.
But it is not "mother nature" who randomly causes rains, winds or storms, and God is not a God who is far away and lets whatever happens to happen. He knows when one sparrow falls to the ground and He knows when one raindrop does as well. That is NOT a God who is far away or not in control of the weather.
If it rains on a field anywhere, it is because God brings the rain.
We have no problem thanking Him for rain for our thirsty ground, but we DO seem to have a problem at times believing He brings the heavy or destructive rains or winds.
It is like we think He brings weather that is pleasing to us and is in complete control of it, but suddenly, He has no hand in destructive weather, but THEN it is either satan or a God far away who suddenly is NOT the One who brings the rain from it's storehouses.
He brings the rain and causes it to fall where it falls and causes it to fall HOW it falls.
He ALSO causes a leader to be lifted into office or toppled from his office.

This was an unprecedented storm in terms of the history of record keeping of storms in the U.S. I give my opinion here: I think another is coming soon that will make this one look like a toothless toddler.
THIS, however, is NOT my opinion: He brings the rain forth from it's storehouses and He raises leaders to office and uproots them from office. You either believe His word or you don't. If you do, you believe it all the time, not just when it is pleasing to you, right?

divaD
Nov 8th 2012, 02:14 PM
Is God sending a message to the people of the United States in this election year?

God has used weather and the elements to correct his people before.

Could this be a warning for us to repent from the immorality and irreverence embedded in our society today, or is it just another storm?


The last thing I want to do, or will do, is to get into a political debate, but my feelings on it it are this. First of all, my wife and I live in Texas. We voted to fire Obama. As a matter of fact, the state of Texas voted to fire him. Unfortunately the bigger majority of other states didn't follow suit. I said all of that to say the following.

What happens 3 or 4 days before election day? A storm, which they called 'frankenstorm', hits the east coast. Then Obama gets re-elected. In my mind then, this is a very bad sign for this country, a bad omen, if you will. It's just a gut feeling I have, and that things aren't going to be pretty in the coming years. We aint seen nothing yet, as far as Obama goes. In my opinion only.

Scooby_Snacks
Nov 8th 2012, 03:56 PM
Is God sending a message to the people of the United States in this election year?

God has used weather and the elements to correct his people before.

Could this be a warning for us to repent from the immorality and irreverence embedded in our society today, or is it just another storm?

Initial thoughts of Gods judgement never enter my mind when it comes to weather or natural disasters.
It seems to me obvious that some people will call out to Him in their need when the very worst of things, like death and the possibility of not knowing what happens when they die presses them.

What I do think about are the people who are in the midst of something terrifying.
I believe that anything that happens can be used for His Glory, but one must be careful to say without a doubt that people are being punished for their sins, when we all deserve death but have been spared and given life in Him.
It has taken me a long time to really believe that God is loving as well as just.
I may have always said He was loving, but I wasn't believing it.
He is merciful beyond my comprehension.
I therefore choose to keep my heart stayed on mercy rather than judgement as much as possible.
I know that one day there will not be any time left.
As the earth is groaning for its adoption just as we are waiting to be caught up in the air with Him, what I try to stay focused on is that if one soul is lost, I do my part in His will to give the time and effort in whatever manner God may have me give to them, that they too may know Him.

I believe judgement comes to the church first....

moonglow
Nov 8th 2012, 06:13 PM
It is GOD who brings the rains from their storehouses.
It is GOD who brings a storm anywhere at any time.
I suppose there are some who have a hard time with that.
But it is not "mother nature" who randomly causes rains, winds or storms, and God is not a God who is far away and lets whatever happens to happen. He knows when one sparrow falls to the ground and He knows when one raindrop does as well. That is NOT a God who is far away or not in control of the weather.
If it rains on a field anywhere, it is because God brings the rain.
We have no problem thanking Him for rain for our thirsty ground, but we DO seem to have a problem at times believing He brings the heavy or destructive rains or winds.
It is like we think He brings weather that is pleasing to us and is in complete control of it, but suddenly, He has no hand in destructive weather, but THEN it is either satan or a God far away who suddenly is NOT the One who brings the rain from it's storehouses.
He brings the rain and causes it to fall where it falls and causes it to fall HOW it falls.
He ALSO causes a leader to be lifted into office or toppled from his office.

This was an unprecedented storm in terms of the history of record keeping of storms in the U.S. I give my opinion here: I think another is coming soon that will make this one look like a toothless toddler.
THIS, however, is NOT my opinion: He brings the rain forth from it's storehouses and He raises leaders to office and uproots them from office. You either believe His word or you don't. If you do, you believe it all the time, not just when it is pleasing to you, right?

This would be more convincing I think if you posted scriptures to go with it.

Some years ago when the Tsunami hit Indonesia so many said it was God's judgment...apparently on tourist too, since so many of them were also lost. Yet I heard the most amazing testimony from a Christian there who ran and orphanage in his efforts to save the orphans before the first wave hit.

I saw it first on CNN but they called him a priest so at first I thought he might be Catholic (CNN seems to have no understanding to reglion differences at all) turns out he is a Christian pastor over there is Asia. He saw the Tsunami coming and gathered up all the orphans he had in care and told them to get into a boat made to hold no more then 10 or 12 adults...he ended up with more then twice the amount of people in it. Several miracles happened too. On CNN they said first the boat motor never started on the first try, and it did this time...and he used scriptures from Isaiah to reburk the first oncoming wave which he said was about 20 feet tall...you can hear his story online...on Dr. Dobson's site...it very moving and very powerful.

He said the scriptures "When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him." Though with his accent it sounded to me like he said...'staff' instead of 'standard'...the "Lord shall lift up a staff against him"...then he went on to say, in the Name of Jesus I rebuke you...and he said he saw the wave change, as if something was restraining it. Then they got the motor started and took them up into a lagoon....and there is much more!



Amazing Faith: A Tsunami Story, Pt 1

Monday, January 10, 2005

Pastor Dayalan Sanders joins H.B. London, describing the rescue of all 28 orphans from a beachfront orphanage in Sri Lanka. It’s an encouraging, uplifting story of God’s grace in the center of the great Tsunami. Join Dr. James Dobson in the relief efforts. Find out how you can help!


Dayalan Sanders is founder of the Samaritan's Children's Home, an orphanage in a small fishing village on the East coast of Sri Lanka. A Sri Lankan native and a U.S. citizen, Dayalan once resided in Gaithersburg, Md., and studied to be an accountant. In 1994, he returned to his native land to build an orphanage with donations and money from the sale of his Maryland townhome. Dayalan and the orphans in his care miraculously survived the tsunami that devastated the coastal lands of Southeast Asia on Dec. 26, 2004, although the orphanage itself was destroyed.


On CNN they did have the video clip of them interviewing him and showing what is left of his church and showed his boat with a flag on it...but only showed the lower half of the flag (I image on purpose)...so all I could see was "is Lord"...I image the words were probably "Jesus is Lord" on the flag.

Part Two:


Tuesday, January 11, 2005
Pastor Dayalan Sanders joins H.B. London, describing the rescue of all 28 orphans from a beachfront orphanage in Sri Lanka. It’s an encouraging, uplifting story of God’s grace in the center of the great Tsunami. Join Dr. James Dobson in the relief efforts.

I took out the links as they are so old they either don't work anymore or don't go to the interview.

Even Jesus rebuked a storm:

Matthew 8
Jesus Calms the Storm

23 Then Jesus got into the boat and started across the lake with his disciples. 24 Suddenly, a terrible storm came up, with waves breaking into the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. 25
The disciples went to him and woke him up, shouting, "Lord, save us! We're going to drown!"

26 And Jesus answered, "Why are you afraid? You have so little faith!" Then he stood up and rebuked the wind and waves, and suddenly all was calm. 27 The disciples just sat there in awe. "Who is this?" they asked themselves. "Even the wind and waves obey him!"

If either of these was from God...how would it be possible to rebuke them?

God bless

VerticalReality
Nov 8th 2012, 07:28 PM
I think the Book of Job makes this subject a little more complex than the default position of either "God did it" or "Satan did it." The Book of Job reveals that Satan has been given power to affect the elements -- at least for designated periods of time anyway. However, the Book of Job is also clear that God ultimately allowed Satan the access, so we cannot simply apply a broad brush in either direction.

Job 1:12-22
12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord. 13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house; 14 and a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the Sabeans raided them and took them away—indeed they have killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 16 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 17 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three bands, raided the camels and took them away, yes, and killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 18 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house, 19 and suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 20 Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said:

“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
And naked shall I return there.
The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away;
Blessed be the name of the Lord.”

22 In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong.

awestruckchild
Nov 8th 2012, 08:31 PM
VerticalReality, I greatly enjoyed your post and am looking forward to more of your posts, for sure!

Moonglow, it is good to talk with you again! I did use scripture - God brings the rain from it's storehouses AND He raises kings up and tears kings down. He causes it to rain. (on the just as well as the unjust)
As for Jesus rebuking the waves, this proves my point that it is God who controls weather, and not the other way around. This far may your proud waves come, and no farther.
We are on to learning so much here! This is what I ache for and thrive on - taking all of the scriptures and not stopping until there is an easiness and fitting together of them wherein none of them is disregarded but all of them are understood.

We need to fit these together.
God did give satan PERMISSION to bring certain things on Job while not taking his life. But giving someone a temporary permission to do this does not mean that satan is then the one always in control of the wind for all time after that. In a sense, He said to satan the same thing that Jesus said to the waves.
Satan arrogantly stood before God accusing Job just as the waves that Jesus rebuked were being arrogant. And Gods response to satan was: this far may you take your arrogance and accusations and no farther - just as He also speaks to the sea about exactly how far it may take its arrogant waves, and no farther.
Also, it seems very hard to us, what God allowed satan to bring to Job, but we also know that He works all things to the good of those who love Him and are called by Him, and we SEE this at the end of Job. He is able to incredulously praise and say: oh my goodness! Before I had only heard about God but now I have MET Him!!

So the things that happened to Job make us a bit angry with God and we want to say that He does not bring such miseries on those who are His, but we plainly see that sometimes He does. So it was not an instance of a punishment for Job but a way to BLESS Job. But His ways are so ABOVE our ways and His thoughts so above ours that we cannot comprehend or understand or see what He is doing!
And isn't it completely possible for God to have blessed Job in this way that seems so odd to us WHILE at the same time these things were also a punishment to some others?
So isn't it possible that a storm could bless some, bring some closer, cause some to meet Him, and at the same time, punish some others? All things are possible with God and His ways are above knowing for us!

moonglow
Nov 8th 2012, 10:19 PM
I think the Book of Job makes this subject a little more complex than the default position of either "God did it" or "Satan did it." The Book of Job reveals that Satan has been given power to affect the elements -- at least for designated periods of time anyway. However, the Book of Job is also clear that God ultimately allowed Satan the access, so we cannot simply apply a broad brush in either direction.

Job 1:12-22
12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord. 13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house; 14 and a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the Sabeans raided them and took them away—indeed they have killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 16 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 17 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three bands, raided the camels and took them away, yes, and killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 18 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house, 19 and suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 20 Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said:

“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
And naked shall I return there.
The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away;
Blessed be the name of the Lord.”

22 In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong.

Completely agree..its not just God did it or just satan did it by any means. Which is why it bothers me so much when a natural disaster strikes a country and people start pointing fingers right off the bat, saying you must have sinned! This is God's judgment on you! Yet clearly we see here, Job did not sin against God.


awestruckchild
Moonglow, it is good to talk with you again! I did use scripture - God brings the rain from it's storehouses AND He raises kings up and tears kings down. He causes it to rain. (on the just as well as the unjust)

awestruckchild, its nice to see you again too. :)

While I know what scriptures you are referring too (I think anyway) you didn't actually post the chapter and verse of them...that is what I was talking about. Not everyone reading your post is going to know what scriptures you are referring too. (also I don't believe the rain falling on the just and unjust means a literal rain anyway actually).

In content it says this:

Matthew 5

Love Your Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Why would the weather suddenly be talked about in a passage about loving your enemies?

Coffman bible commentaries: (http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=005)

The principle of loving one's enemies is valid and binding upon all who would follow Christ. There is no room in the Christian heart, purged from sin and forgiven of all transgressions, to entertain such a stifling and chilling a thing as hatred for anyone. Love in this place does not necessarily refer to sentimental and affectionate love such as one has for members of his own family. The kind of love meant is the love manifested by God himself in that he sends rain on the just and unjust, etc. The implication is that the Christian shall treat his enemies with fairness and equity, doing unto them as he would desire people should do unto himself.


As for Jesus rebuking the waves, this proves my point that it is God who controls weather, and not the other way around. This far may your proud waves come, and no farther.

I think you might have missed what I was saying. Who caused the storm in the first place?

What did you think about that pastor rebuking a huge wave from the Tsunami coming at him and the orphans he was trying to say, in the Name of Jesus?

God bless

awestruckchild
Nov 9th 2012, 12:47 AM
Moonglow,
I agree that it is distasteful to hear my brother or sister pronouncing God's wrath or punishment on others and I have seen as you have that sometimes God is displaying His anger or displeasure but sometimes, He is doing a strange and wonderful thing that looks like a stone to us but that is really bread. (as Job shows us)

As to the belief that the verse of the rain on the just and unjust alike is not literal but is spirit, I believe it is both, but that it is, of course, the spirit of the word that truly avails a man, and the literal, not so much. But honestly, here we are in the very literal world (temporary, true) but here we are, and so the words must have a literal meaning as well - though it doesn't avail us much. My point was more that if He blesses the unjust with rain for their fields just as He does with the just, and if Job shows us that He also can bless the just in the end with the damaging winds and rains, then He can also punish or drive to repentance the unjust with a punishing wind or rain. It is not only when we find the rain agreeable that He has brought it. It is also when we find it disagreeable that He has brought it. If we must allow the caveat that it COULD be satan causing it, then I insist we must also allow that satan only HAS that power if God gives Him permission, so it will end in good for me, so in essence, there is really no need to wander down that trail because IF God gives that permission in a certain instance (like with Job) then it will be good and bread and a blessing no matter WHAT satan believes he is doing.

It is not my place to say that His reason was because of a mans sin, and if I am wise, I will not say it because He might become angry with me for speaking wrongly about Him just as He became angry with Job's friends for speaking wrongly about His reasons and motives. His ways are unfathomable to me.

Next, yes, I know I am woefully bad at memorization and I can tell you what a verse says but will never be able to remember what book and chapter and verse it is from. I agree - there may be people who have never read the verse and so have no idea what I am talking about, but I think most people in here have read the bible and will know what I am referring to. At least I think so....

I agree that the word is spirit, but I also think the verse means...if the unjust are so important to God that He sends rain to them and to their fields just as He does to the fields of the just, providing for BOTH, then if He loves those who are His enemies and provides for them in this way, (and we know He does because He loved US when we were still His enemies), then who are WE to withhold any blessing from them - whether it be the love WE were shown, caring, food, practical help, or even a drink of water, or whatever?

Then next, I think I already spoke about what I thought about WHO caused the wave in the first place. It doesn't really take on much importance for me because IF satan caused it it was only because God gave Him permission, so it is sort of a moot point to me to wonder about that. Even David, when the man was throwing rocks at him, and his boys were going to open a can of whoop on him, told them not to touch the man because he wouldn't BE throwing rocks at David unless God told him to, but that God had not told David what He was doing - David just knew that He WAS doing something.

Now THAT is a mighty faith and trust in God! To know that ANYTHING that comes to you or happens to you, no matter what, is coming to you because God either caused it or allowed it and so you just stand there amid missiles being lobbed at you and won't let any of your friends defend you! And what a powerful picture of Jesus!!

God's legacy
Nov 10th 2012, 01:04 AM
Would you say the weather patterns were set in motion at the time of creation and it's just a matter of time and chance that the elements behave according to their expressed purpose?

We know that God intervenes occasionally with nature and its forces, and usually for a specific reason to effect some purpose on something.
In Isaiah 24 God uses it to punish.
In Numbers 16, God causes an earthquake to intervene in a confrontation.
In Acts 4, God uses His limitless powers over nature to show His support for the believers on the day of Pentecost to confirm He was the true God
When Jesus died on the cross God showed His anger with an earthquake.

Environmentalists claim pollution has resulted in climate changes which could affect the standard behavior of meteorological systems and temperature ranges. This could explain the variances we see lately.

In Psalm 91 God offers His protection. But God's protection is not applied when a natural disaster occurs if there is no repentance or national call to prayer.
We hear many personal stories of people being saved in a miraculous way as they call upon the Lord for His help individually. That has been documented in many past incidents of major storms or calamities..

Jesus Himself in the Olivet prophecy foretells the unleashing of His power over the forces of His creation in the end times during His second coming with the likes we have never seen or heard of before, one of them being the great quake mentioned in revelation 16:18 -
punishment or redemption?