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Walley10
Nov 15th 2012, 08:47 AM
First of all, I am looking for something with more substance of "well we can never be perfect in this life". Second, I saw an article in which someone stated that if you don't believe in sinless perfection or if you have ever sinned since your supposed conversion then you hate holiness and are not even saved. Is there truth to that? Now I got frustrated at myself and even angry (I know THAT IS a sin!) at even the person writing the article because I do not want to "hate holiness" and although mistakes are not sins, that if you have ever sinned since salvation then you did not hate your sin or have conviction over it and I even prayed to Jesus that I do not want to be in sin and even asked God to make it impossible for me to sin but I am still frustrated. I still do not know if sinlessness is true or not. Because if it is then I want to get sinless. Often have I told God "I may fail you a lot in the future but please take these certain desires away".

I want to know, if sinless perfection is possible, and, what this verse, 1 John 3:9 means; "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." I think that is a strong indicator that sinless perfection might be true, I mean it very plainly says "does not sin". Is there truth to this here? I also want to note in verse 5 it says he was manifested to TAKE AWAY our sins and whoever abides in him does NOT sin. Now I know that some people say this verses just means if you are saved you don't PRACTICE sin but it that what John is saying? Any thoughts?

anthony57
Nov 15th 2012, 10:21 AM
I want to know, if sinless perfection is possible

No, because the flesh cannot cease from sinning. However, the man that has been born of God, he cannot sin, he has sinless perfection 1 Jn 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The man of flesh or that us that was born of the flesh is not born of God. The person the believer is that is born of God cannot sin in that nature that is born of God, but with that nature he was born of the flesh with is still united to him and it will always sin until it also will be adopted into the family of God at the Second Coming, which is called the Adoption of the Body Rom 8:23

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Thats what Paul means here Rom 7:24

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

But presently, that body of death the believer has, is in Union with a born again one who cannot sin, because he was born of God !

Walley10
Nov 15th 2012, 10:33 AM
No, because the flesh cannot cease from sinning. However, the man that has been born of God, he cannot sin, he has sinless perfection 1 Jn 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The man of flesh or that us that was born of the flesh is not born of God. The person the believer is that is born of God cannot sin in that nature that is born of God, but with that nature he was born of the flesh with is still united to him and it will always sin until it also will be adopted into the family of God at the Second Coming, which is called the Adoption of the Body Rom 8:23

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Thats what Paul means here Rom 7:24

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

But presently, that body of death the believer has, is in Union with a born again one who cannot sin, because he was born of God !

Romans 7 is another thing, it would seem that those who promote this teaching generally say that the part of Romans 7:14-25 was written when Paul was LOST and not saved. He was 'striving' with repentance and not yet saved. I have heard many arguments from both sides and I do not know which to believe.

Noeb
Nov 15th 2012, 02:33 PM
Anthony57, that's Gnosticism -1John 1:8. The flesh has been -past tense- crucified with Christ. If you don't believe that you will sin. When you do believe it you won't sin.

Noeb
Nov 15th 2012, 02:38 PM
Walley10, Paul was describing what it is like to be born again, want to not sin, and not know how --crucified with Christ. He said, 'how to perform that which is good, if find not'. People are told 100 ways to not sin, but they are not told to believe they are dead to sin and alive in Christ, as Paul said.

Scruffy Kid
Nov 15th 2012, 03:53 PM
.

Methodological Prolegomenon:
Does the Bible Contradict Itself?

(1) No, of course it cannot!

(1a)It cannot because God is wholly self-consistent,
......and God is the ultimate author and source of inspiration of the Bible,
......although it also reflects its diverse human authors as well.

And in addition:

(2) Yes, it most certainly does, and must contradict itself.

(2a)It does contradict itself because Prov. 26:4 says "do not answer a fool according to his folly"
......but Prov. 26:5 says "answer a fool according to his folly"
......(Prov 18:17 alerts us to such contradictions when it says:
......"He that first states his own cause appears to be just,
......but his neighbor comes, and then it seems otherwise"

(2b)It does contradict itself because Jesus says (Matt 12:30, Luke 11:23)"He that is not with me is against me"
......but also says (Mark 9:40, Luke 9:50) "He that is not against us is for us"

(2c)It does contradict itself because I John 2:7 says "I am writing no new commandment to you"
......but I John 2:8 says instead "but I am writing a new commandment to you".

(2d)It must contradict itself because Isaiah (55:9) says "For as the heavens are higher than the earth
......so are my thoughts higher than your thoughts, and my ways than your ways"

and also, Jesus says (John 8:43)"Why do you not understand my speech? Because you cannot hear my word"
and .......................(John 13:7)"What I am doing now you do not understand, but afterward you will understand"
and .......................(Mark 4:, etc. etc.)(referencing Isaiah 6) "I teach in parables so they may see and not perceive, hear and not understand"



Substantive answer:
John is saying several different things,
all of them true, but hard to understand
and you have to keep them all in mind at once,
though they seem to contradict each other

John 1:5-2:2 states plainly that we are all sinners, ongoingly, and need to go to God for forgiveness, and keep going back to him.
John furthermore says that if we don't acknowledge that we are deceiving ourselves and lying to and about God.

1Jo 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;
1Jo 1:7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jo 2:1 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
1Jo 2:2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

But as you say, I John 3:9 also says the opposite: "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him;
.................................................. ....................and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."
Furthermore I John 2:3-4 states this same opposite again "And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
.................................................. ...................He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him"



Reprise:
The way that John writes in I John

John (in I John) writes in a very categorical style. That is, he makes strong, extreme, sweeping statements.
Then he makes other strong, extreme, sweeping statements which are in tensions with what he has just written,
and sometimes the statements directly contradict one another.

This style is like the style used in Prov. 26, of making 2 statements which contradict each other (side by side),
like Jesus's articulation of contradictory aspects of things, given above,
and is shown in a minor way in the direct contradiction between I John 2:7 and I John 2:8.

The truths that we must grasp are larger truths than will fit into our way of thinking.
They necessarily involve difficult-to-live-with tensions, from our point of view at least.
The Bible, and specific authors within it give us these opposed truths (or "antinomies") because its by
holding onto both parts, even though they are in severe tension, or contradict logically, that we come to see
what it is that God is saying to us, which is something large, and difficult to grasp.

Walley10
Nov 15th 2012, 05:32 PM
And that's another thing. Is making mistakes a sin? Somtimes people who say they are sinless might admit they make mistakes but say that's not a sin, is that correct?

Walley10
Nov 15th 2012, 05:35 PM
Walley10, Paul was describing what it is like to be born again, want to not sin, and not know how --crucified with Christ. He said, 'how to perform that which is good, if find not'. People are told 100 ways to not sin, but they are not told to believe they are dead to sin and alive in Christ, as Paul said.

So all I must do then to become sinless is just simply believe I am dead to my sin and I will not sin anymore? Like I said, I do not know if when you are born again you will become sinless, but I sure would like to be sinless.

Noeb
Nov 15th 2012, 05:35 PM
1john 1:5 to 2:2 doesn't say we are sinners. He's addressing Gnosticism, not a need for contestant and continual confession.

Walley10
Nov 15th 2012, 06:08 PM
Certainly it is not my desire to sin, what I want to be doing is constantly seeking after God and learning his word. But the thing is, If at some point I do commit an act of sin, did it men I was not saved? That's what so confuses me. I really wish I knew which is true. I think both sides agree Jesus paid for all sin, but once you are saved, it's a matter of if it is even possible to sin. I remember a pastor named Paul Washer said if you took a camera and took on photo of his life where he sinned you would say he's not saved, but if you used a video camera and recorded his whole life is constant flow of life is seeking God. So he says it only means if you habitually, unremousefully sin? I don't know. I wish I was sinless though.

Scruffy Kid
Nov 15th 2012, 07:06 PM
As I said, I John 1:5-2:2 says, among other things, that if you think you are not a sinner, you are just kidding yourself.

We all sin (though of course it's important to try hard not to, and to try hard to walk with God)
and I John says that when we do sin, we have forgiveness and healing when we confess or sins to God.

Noeb
Nov 15th 2012, 08:00 PM
You're out of the context and purpose of the book Scruffy. Light/darkness, saved/lost, love/hate, brother/not a brother. The gnostics were deceiving them and causing them to err. That's in the book. They taught when you sinned you were still sinless, so it's OK to sin. John says it's a moot point because if you are born of God you won't have that attitude. He says do not sin, implying it is possible because God commands it, then says IF, not when, you sin. The issue is not, is forgiveness available if you agree with God that you sinned, the issue is.....as John repeated....you can know who is and is not by whether or not they are a sinner or son of God. Which BTW he said we are sons of God, not sinners. I suggest you re-read the book in its historical context, and purpose.

Walley10
Nov 15th 2012, 08:00 PM
As I said, I John 1:5-2:2 says, among other things, that if you think you are not a sinner, you are just kidding yourself.

We all sin (though of course it's important to try hard not to, and to try hard to walk with God)
and I John says that when we do sin, we have forgiveness and healing when we confess or sins to God.

I am really seeking answers on this, ya know. I mean as I have said I certainly do not want to sin. I want to make following and seeking Christ to be the practice of my life, but does that mean that if you sin at some point after you having faith in him, does it mean that you're not saved to begin with? If sinless perfection is possible then I want to have it, but I am just not sure what to believe in this area. Of course then there's Hebrews 12 which says God will correct you through conviction and chastise you if you sin, so that's another one that gets me confused. I have been getting very interested with sinlessness..

Noeb
Nov 15th 2012, 08:07 PM
So all I must do then to become sinless is just simply believe I am dead to my sin and I will not sin anymore? Like I said, I do not know if when you are born again you will become sinless, but I sure would like to be sinless.
Yes, that is the way of escape God provided and determined to glorify his Son. Christ and him crucified/resurrected, the power of God.

John146
Nov 15th 2012, 09:10 PM
First of all, I am looking for something with more substance of "well we can never be perfect in this life". Second, I saw an article in which someone stated that if you don't believe in sinless perfection or if you have ever sinned since your supposed conversion then you hate holiness and are not even saved. Is there truth to that? Now I got frustrated at myself and even angry (I know THAT IS a sin!) at even the person writing the article because I do not want to "hate holiness" and although mistakes are not sins, that if you have ever sinned since salvation then you did not hate your sin or have conviction over it and I even prayed to Jesus that I do not want to be in sin and even asked God to make it impossible for me to sin but I am still frustrated. I still do not know if sinlessness is true or not. Because if it is then I want to get sinless. Often have I told God "I may fail you a lot in the future but please take these certain desires away".

I want to know, if sinless perfection is possible, and, what this verse, 1 John 3:9 means; "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." I think that is a strong indicator that sinless perfection might be true, I mean it very plainly says "does not sin". Is there truth to this here? I also want to note in verse 5 it says he was manifested to TAKE AWAY our sins and whoever abides in him does NOT sin. Now I know that some people say this verses just means if you are saved you don't PRACTICE sin but it that what John is saying? Any thoughts?That verse cannot be used to promote the idea that being born of God means you will be sinless because that would contradict what John wrote here:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

This is addressed to believers who have been born of God and it indicates that for us to say that we don't sin would mean we are deceiving ourselves and making God a liar. He also said that if we confess our sins God will forgive us. So, it's clearly implied here that believers are not expected to be sinless after they are saved. The idea that we need to be a sinless turns salvation into a case of us saving ourselves by our own righteousness rather than being saved by way of trusting in Christ and His righteousness.

Walley10
Nov 15th 2012, 09:15 PM
That verse cannot be used to promote the idea that being born of God means you will be sinless because that would contradict what John wrote here:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

This is addressed to believers who have been born of God and it indicates that for us to say that we don't sin would mean we are deceiving ourselves and making God a liar. He also said that if we confess our sins God will forgive us. So, it's clearly implied here that believers are not expected to be sinless after they are saved. The idea that we need to be a sinless turns salvation into a case of us saving ourselves by our own righteousness rather than being saved by way of trusting in Christ and His righteousness.

I do not think that's what someone believes, if they believe in sinless perfection though. Because most will all say that Jesus saves you and makes you sinless. That if you truly hated your sin enough then you would be saved from them completely. That's what I think their belief is anyway.

John146
Nov 15th 2012, 09:23 PM
I do not think that's what someone believes, if they believe in sinless perfection though. Because most will all say that Jesus saves you and makes you sinless. That if you truly hated your sin enough then you would be saved from them completely. That's what I think their belief is anyway.Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I thought I was addressing what you had said in your original post. No? My point is that if someone thinks that you're not saved if you have sinned at all since conversion then they are contradicting 1 John 1:8-10. Does that not address the question you asked? You had said this:


I saw an article in which someone stated that if you don't believe in sinless perfection or if you have ever sinned since your supposed conversion then you hate holiness and are not even saved. Is there truth to that?Was I not addressing this question with what I said in post #15? I feel that I did.

Walley10
Nov 15th 2012, 09:37 PM
Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I thought I was addressing what you had said in your original post. No? My point is that if someone thinks that you're not saved if you have sinned at all since conversion then they are contradicting 1 John 1:8-10. Does that not address the question you asked? You had said this:

Was I not addressing this question with what I said in post #15? I feel that I did.

I was responding to what you said by saying "The idea that we need to be a sinless turns salvation into a case of us saving ourselves by our own righteousness" I responded by pointing out that I do not think "sinless perfectionists" actually believe that. I think they believe that Jesus saves you and makes you impossible to get into sin ever. Something to that effect, if you would like to read, what I read about this, here is the article I referred to: http://morechristlike.com/how-to-stop-falling-into-sin/

Noeb
Nov 15th 2012, 09:59 PM
John146
No. It's Greek Third Class Condition -if we -hypothetical.
Verse 8 is the gnostics -not brothers, hate, darknes.
Verse 9 is the believers - brother, love, light.

The gnostics separated the spirit from the body, saying the spirit is pure but the body is sinful. Scripture doesn't teach that. Sin is from the heart, which includes the spirit, so anyone that has ever sinned 'has sin'. The question is, is it forgiven.

Noeb
Nov 15th 2012, 10:21 PM
Walley10, if you were not saved because you sinned then Peter and Paul were not saved while they were apostles. It's simply not true.

chad
Nov 15th 2012, 10:25 PM
Hi Walley,

I can give you my opinion regarding your question. I think there is a difference between not being able to sin and being forgiven of our sins.

When we are forgiven of our sins, our sins are remembered no more (Hebrews 8:12-13, Hebrews 10:17-18). It does not mean we can no longer sin anymore (1 John 1:8), but under Grace our sins are forgiven through Jesus Christ (1 John 1:7).

Paul writes not to use our freedom to indulge in the sinful nature (Galatians 5:13), because it is through Grace that our sins are forgiven (1 John 2:2). Hebrews 10:26-27 writes that If we keep deliberately sinning, then there is only judgement left.

An example of this in the bible of some who would come under judgement, if they do not repent could possibly be the false teachers and prophetess as written in (Rev 2:15-16 and Rev 2:20-23).




I am really seeking answers on this, ya know. I mean as I have said I certainly do not want to sin. I want to make following and seeking Christ to be the practice of my life, but does that mean that if you sin at some point after you having faith in him, does it mean that you're not saved to begin with? If sinless perfection is possible then I want to have it, but I am just not sure what to believe in this area. Of course then there's Hebrews 12 which says God will correct you through conviction and chastise you if you sin, so that's another one that gets me confused. I have been getting very interested with sinlessness..

Noeb
Nov 15th 2012, 10:27 PM
Walley10, ignore that article you posted a link to.

John146
Nov 15th 2012, 10:39 PM
John146
No. What are you saying "No" in response to exactly?


It's Greek Third Class Condition -if we -hypothetical.
Verse 8 is the gnostics -not brothers, hate, darknes.
Verse 9 is the believers - brother, love, light.Can you clarify what you're trying to say here because I'm not following you.


The gnostics separated the spirit from the body, saying the spirit is pure but the body is sinful. Scripture doesn't teach that.I'm not saying that so why are you telling me this?

Noeb
Nov 15th 2012, 11:06 PM
Simple. Verse 8 is the unsaved gnostics, not the believers.

divaD
Nov 15th 2012, 11:06 PM
When we are forgiven of our sins, our sins are remembered no more (Hebrews 8:12-13, Hebrews 10:17-18).


But that wouldn't be until after judgment day, would it? If sins will be remembered no more, as in now, then one could sin all they wanted, and never have to worry about sins being remembered no more, which really seems strange, the fact that one will still sin while in this body. So how exactly are you understanding that passage? Do you think it means sins one has committed prior to being saved, and once one is saved, those past sins are remembered no more? If so, what about sins one commits after being saved? When would they be remembered no more as well? And the fact that you or I, or anyone, will still remember these sins while alive, why is it that God wouldn't?

anthony57
Nov 15th 2012, 11:27 PM
wally


Romans 7 is another thing,

Romans 7 is God's Truth !

Walley10
Nov 16th 2012, 09:03 AM
Hi Walley,

I can give you my opinion regarding your question. I think there is a difference between not being able to sin and being forgiven of our sins.

When we are forgiven of our sins, our sins are remembered no more (Hebrews 8:12-13, Hebrews 10:17-18). It does not mean we can no longer sin anymore (1 John 1:8), but under Grace our sins are forgiven through Jesus Christ (1 John 1:7).

Paul writes not to use our freedom to indulge in the sinful nature (Galatians 5:13), because it is through Grace that our sins are forgiven (1 John 2:2). Hebrews 10:26-27 writes that If we keep deliberately sinning, then there is only judgement left.

An example of this in the bible of some who would come under judgement, if they do not repent could possibly be the false teachers and prophetess as written in (Rev 2:15-16 and Rev 2:20-23).

I would have to agree with that. Certainly it's not like I want to make it my goal to sin, it's just that the article I had read made me think about this sinless perfection stuff. Before I just disregarded it saying it was not possible, but reading on that article really made me think about it. Sometimes when I read the bible I will be convicted about some type of sinful thing in my life. Normally, I think that would be considered a good thing, because God is correcting you about stuff like that but if this guy on the article were right, then it's not possible to be saved and have that happen.

Walley10
Nov 16th 2012, 09:04 AM
Walley10, ignore that article you posted a link to.


Is there any particular reason why?

awestruckchild
Nov 16th 2012, 12:23 PM
First of all, I am looking for something with more substance of "well we can never be perfect in this life". Second, I saw an article in which someone stated that if you don't believe in sinless perfection or if you have ever sinned since your supposed conversion then you hate holiness and are not even saved. Is there truth to that? Now I got frustrated at myself and even angry (I know THAT IS a sin!) at even the person writing the article because I do not want to "hate holiness" and although mistakes are not sins, that if you have ever sinned since salvation then you did not hate your sin or have conviction over it and I even prayed to Jesus that I do not want to be in sin and even asked God to make it impossible for me to sin but I am still frustrated. I still do not know if sinlessness is true or not. Because if it is then I want to get sinless. Often have I told God "I may fail you a lot in the future but please take these certain desires away".

I want to know, if sinless perfection is possible, and, what this verse, 1 John 3:9 means; "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." I think that is a strong indicator that sinless perfection might be true, I mean it very plainly says "does not sin". Is there truth to this here? I also want to note in verse 5 it says he was manifested to TAKE AWAY our sins and whoever abides in him does NOT sin. Now I know that some people say this verses just means if you are saved you don't PRACTICE sin but it that what John is saying? Any thoughts?

Hi again Walley!
You might be getting a little caught up in what YOU have to do to attain to what He wants you to attain to. You need to trust Him that He will do His will in you and for you.
Also, have you sat and considered - really considered - WHAT is sin?
A lot of people say various things are sin that others say aren't.
For instance, some say smoking cigarettes is "a sin." I give my opinion here, but I base it on what God has said - I never believed they were when I did smoke them because of what Paul said about how if a man THOUGHT something was sin and felt and believed it was sin, and then he did that thing anyway, then to that man, it was sin, and that EVERY man, by his self, needed to be convinced.
But that isn't really the MAIN reason why I think so. The MAIN reason is because of when Jesus said: it is not what you put into your body that defiles you. It is what comes from OUT of a man - from his own heart, that defiles him.

But back to considering WHAT sin is.
I am not trying to answer your question about IF sinless perfection is possible for you on earth. I just want you to look at what Jesus said about what sin IS.
He said you have murdered if you even have a THOUGHT of anger at someone.
Just take the first one and keep it in your mind for an entire day (or 2 or 3), and see just how many times you murder even your own FAMILY members.

So I am not saying one way or the other if sinless perfection is possible on earth. I am just saying that if this is really what you want to attempt, you need to know what GOD considers sin to be, not what men consider it to be. God doesn't get as caught up with the outside behavior. He gets caught up with what CAUSES the behavioral problem, which is inside your heart and your thoughts. This ties into the verse: if the inside of your cup is clean, the outside just will be as well.

Walley10
Nov 16th 2012, 06:24 PM
Hi again Walley!
You might be getting a little caught up in what YOU have to do to attain to what He wants you to attain to. You need to trust Him that He will do His will in you and for you.
Also, have you sat and considered - really considered - WHAT is sin?
A lot of people say various things are sin that others say aren't.
For instance, some say smoking cigarettes is "a sin." I give my opinion here, but I base it on what God has said - I never believed they were when I did smoke them because of what Paul said about how if a man THOUGHT something was sin and felt and believed it was sin, and then he did that thing anyway, then to that man, it was sin, and that EVERY man, by his self, needed to be convinced.
But that isn't really the MAIN reason why I think so. The MAIN reason is because of when Jesus said: it is not what you put into your body that defiles you. It is what comes from OUT of a man - from his own heart, that defiles him.

But back to considering WHAT sin is.
I am not trying to answer your question about IF sinless perfection is possible for you on earth. I just want you to look at what Jesus said about what sin IS.
He said you have murdered if you even have a THOUGHT of anger at someone.
Just take the first one and keep it in your mind for an entire day (or 2 or 3), and see just how many times you murder even your own FAMILY members.

So I am not saying one way or the other if sinless perfection is possible on earth. I am just saying that if this is really what you want to attempt, you need to know what GOD considers sin to be, not what men consider it to be. God doesn't get as caught up with the outside behavior. He gets caught up with what CAUSES the behavioral problem, which is inside your heart and your thoughts. This ties into the verse: if the inside of your cup is clean, the outside just will be as well.

Thanks. I know the bible even says that if you know to do something good, but then you do not do it, then it is sin in James but I don't remember the specific verse. I just don't exactly get the whole sinless perfection thing. The article I posted a link to made it seem as if when you are saved, you become sinless, but some other say things like that sinless perfection is attainable in this life, but it is something that must be worked at, not something that instantly you become sinless when you are saved. You mention cigarettes, personally, I have had a problem with over-eating and to me both cigarettes and over eating is sin because I think it would hurt your body which is a temple for the Holy Spirit but that's my view. Anyway, like I said I do not want to make sin a habit of my life, but if I do screw up at times, would it mean I am not saved because if I was truly saved I would be completely sinless? The whole thing has been very confusing. I think some of the people who say that you become sinless when you are saved are the same people that might utter a curse word if they get mad but then say it's not a sin because it was just a "Mistake". It's very confusing.

BroRog
Nov 17th 2012, 01:16 AM
I want to know, if sinless perfection is possible, and, what this verse, 1 John 3:9 means; "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." I think that is a strong indicator that sinless perfection might be true, I mean it very plainly says "does not sin". Is there truth to this here? I also want to note in verse 5 it says he was manifested to TAKE AWAY our sins and whoever abides in him does NOT sin. Now I know that some people say this verses just means if you are saved you don't PRACTICE sin but it that what John is saying? Any thoughts?Sinless perfection isn't possible, just ask my wife. :) Honestly, the only way someone can claim to be sinless is if they redefine sin. I have had many conversations with those who believe in sinless perfection and come to find out that they rationalize sinful behavior as nothing more than "human error." We all make mistakes, right?

With regard to 1John 3:9, it is helpful to remember that John is speaking to second generation Christians who have been listening to false teachers, telling them that it's okay to sin under certain circumstances. Perhaps you have met people like this today? These folks will suggest that God will overlook the sexual immorality of those who are doing God's work, or those who are pious. God will look the other way because I tithe 10%, attend church three times a week, go to confession, baptize my children, raise my kids in a Christian home, celebrate all the religious festivals, pray daily, study the bible, teach the bible, teach Sunday school, and perform other duties and rituals common to Christian praxis. John is arguing against that kind of thinking, and attempting to keep his readers from falling victims to that kind of rationalization, which is not compatible with either the Christian faith or fellowship with God.

awestruckchild
Nov 17th 2012, 04:01 AM
Thanks. I know the bible even says that if you know to do something good, but then you do not do it, then it is sin in James but I don't remember the specific verse. I just don't exactly get the whole sinless perfection thing. The article I posted a link to made it seem as if when you are saved, you become sinless, but some other say things like that sinless perfection is attainable in this life, but it is something that must be worked at, not something that instantly you become sinless when you are saved. You mention cigarettes, personally, I have had a problem with over-eating and to me both cigarettes and over eating is sin because I think it would hurt your body which is a temple for the Holy Spirit but that's my view. Anyway, like I said I do not want to make sin a habit of my life, but if I do screw up at times, would it mean I am not saved because if I was truly saved I would be completely sinless? The whole thing has been very confusing. I think some of the people who say that you become sinless when you are saved are the same people that might utter a curse word if they get mad but then say it's not a sin because it was just a "Mistake". It's very confusing.

I am laughing right now and I don't know why!
Yeah, it's confusing. You said a mouthful there!
But usually when I am confused, if I sit and think about it, it isn't what God said and Jesus said that is the thing really confusing me. It is my own, or another mans "yeah, but..."
I already used the example of smoking, but it's a good one. Jesus said it isn't what you put into your body that defiles you. Fairly straightforward and unconfusing words. But yet another man, or my very own mind, seems to be telling me and making me feel like somehow what I put in my body IS defiling me before God.

Or, Jesus said I am not to worry about food, clothing - in other words, money - because God will make sure I am taken care of. Yet I then listen to the news and hear men saying all this awful stuff is going to happen and then I get scared and think about hoarding some food and money so I won't starve to death when the stuff hits the fan that they say is going to hit it.

There is a verse that says - whatever is not belief is sin.
So if I'm going to worry about something He promised I don't have to and must not worry about, that isn't exactly belief in what He said, is it?
It's more of a: well, I WANT to believe You and trust what you said is the truth, but everyone is saying I'm an idiot to believe it and that it isn't how the world works....

I could be wrong on this, but I think the same man who said we don't sin is the same one who talked about how wretched he was because he WANTED to do things and then didn't and DIDN'T want to do things but then did!! So it's pretty obvious then that HE HIMSELF saw that he sinned. So how do you reconcile these two things? It is one of those seeming contradictions in the bible that make us see we are missing something that God will have to teach us. He does not teach us everything all at once. He teaches us one thing, or two, and then we struggle with believing and trusting. If He sees we are trustworthy in a small thing, He knows we are ready to bear more/learn more, and then He teaches us another thing or two. But if we aren't faithful or trusting Him in smaller, worldly things like money or believing that what we put into our bodies doesn't defile us when He said so, then how will we believe Him when He shares much bigger heavenly things with us?

Would a father try to teach his five year old all about how to drive and take care of a car, how to treat women, how to conduct business?
No, of course not.
And why not?
Because his son won't even obey him in LITTLE things. The father can plainly see that his son is nowhere NEAR ready to learn about those things. He still hasn't learned to heed his father about not eating his boogers or pulling the dogs tail. How on earth can he bear larger teaching? And he tells his son 17 times in ONE NIGHT that there is going to be trouble if he doesn't stop jumping on the bed, and 17 times it is as if the boy hears and then forgets what his father said 11 seconds later. Is the father then going to teach him how to mow the lawn or expect that he could bear the responsibility of taking the trash out every night?
Here is the verse: I have many things to tell you but you are not ready to bear them yet.

Noeb
Nov 17th 2012, 05:28 AM
Is there any particular reason why?Like I said.......
Walley10, if you were not saved because you sinned then Peter and Paul were not saved while they were apostles. It's simply not true.

anthony57
Nov 18th 2012, 01:29 AM
Even when in ourselves the True believer is not sinless, Yet Before God he is sinless, yes even perfect because of the offering of Christ Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering[His Death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The word perfected here is the greek word τετελείωκεν and its in the perfect tense and means that He has perfected forever, for all time.

This perfectin they have before God is True even while they are dead in sin and enemies to God by Nature, because the perfection does not depend on anything they did or did not do, but soley based upon what Christ Transacted for them with the Father by His Death !

chad
Nov 18th 2012, 06:44 AM
In terms of the law of Moses and old and new covenants, the law of Moses could not perfect anybody.

(Heb 7:11 KJV) If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

(Heb 7:19 KJV) For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


In terms of Christ Jesus, he was perfect.

(Heb 5:8 KJV) Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

(Heb 5:9 KJV) And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

(Heb 5:10 KJV) Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.



And by his sacrifice we are made perfect (Sinless perfection) for we are in Christ, even though we live our lives and undergo sanctification.


(Heb 10:14 KJV) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

(Heb 10:14 NIV) because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.





Even when in ourselves the True believer is not sinless, Yet Before God he is sinless, yes even perfect because of the offering of Christ Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering[His Death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The word perfected here is the greek word τετελείωκεν and its in the perfect tense and means that He has perfected forever, for all time.

This perfectin they have before God is True even while they are dead in sin and enemies to God by Nature, because the perfection does not depend on anything they did or did not do, but soley based upon what Christ Transacted for them with the Father by His Death !

jk1311
Apr 9th 2013, 08:16 PM
First of all, I am looking for something with more substance of "well we can never be perfect in this life". Second, I saw an article in which someone stated that if you don't believe in sinless perfection or if you have ever sinned since your supposed conversion then you hate holiness and are not even saved. Is there truth to that? Now I got frustrated at myself and even angry (I know THAT IS a sin!) at even the person writing the article because I do not want to "hate holiness" and although mistakes are not sins, that if you have ever sinned since salvation then you did not hate your sin or have conviction over it and I even prayed to Jesus that I do not want to be in sin and even asked God to make it impossible for me to sin but I am still frustrated. I still do not know if sinlessness is true or not. Because if it is then I want to get sinless. Often have I told God "I may fail you a lot in the future but please take these certain desires away".

I want to know, if sinless perfection is possible, and, what this verse, 1 John 3:9 means; "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." I think that is a strong indicator that sinless perfection might be true, I mean it very plainly says "does not sin". Is there truth to this here? I also want to note in verse 5 it says he was manifested to TAKE AWAY our sins and whoever abides in him does NOT sin. Now I know that some people say this verses just means if you are saved you don't PRACTICE sin but it that what John is saying? Any thoughts?

I lived an experience similar to Wesleyan 'sinless perfection' and 'holiness movement'. It is important to separate this from your salvation though as the two are separate items. Let me just give a few examples:

David was forgiven immediately upon confession (2 Samuel 12:13) note that Psalm 51 was written after this as his plea to be close to God again (e.g. return to me the joy of my salvation)

The sinner who was saved on the cross. He was saved based on his faith alone, but with no evidence of 'holiness' or perfection (when would he have become perfect?)

In 1 Corinthians 3:15, it mentions the worker who builds with hay, wood and straw instead of precious stones. He is still saved.

There is even a comparable situation in the old Hebrew law between unclean and clean persons. Unclean persons were separated from the Israelite camp, but this doesn't mean that they weren't Israelites. When you are under the influences of habitual sin without the Spirit of God directly influencing your life, you are unclean and unholy and not fully prepared to do God's perfect will. Note how 2 Timothy 2:20-21 discusses cleaning yourself of dishonorable things to be useful for the master.

Salvation is based upon your faith and submission to God only and is imparted immediately upon true belief in your heart in Jesus Christ. In the parable of the soils, it states that the good soil bears fruit with patience (Luke 8:15). It says with patience because there is a cleaning of our sinful desires and lusts that naturally occurs when we want to live our lives of service to God (verses about putting off your sinful desires and lusts are everywhere). God doesn't want obligatory service and burdensome meeting of some level of service, he wants us to serve joyfully. In comparison, in Deuteronomy 28:47 it says we should serve the Lord with joy and gladness of heart for the abundance of everything.

Even in the holiness movement, there was not a thought that a person is constantly 'filled with the spirit' (in contrast to having the spirit in us which is constant). If perfect holiness were required then we would have an impossible bar as 'we all stumble in many ways' (James 3:2) and not all people are gifted with self-control (1 Corinthians 7:7).

The true key to Christianity is pursuing a relationship with Jesus Christ as the primary goal in your life. If you do this, you will grow a closer relationship and find that your sinful desires may pass away. The way that I think of sin in my Christian life is 'to him who knows the good to do and does not do it, to him it is sin'. I am always searching an praying for new insight about the sinful ways in my life. Be careful that Satan does not convince you that you must be 'worthy' of God to be saved. Nobody is worthy, but keep pursuing him with a full heart and you will find him in your life!

episkopos
Apr 9th 2013, 09:25 PM
First of all, I am looking for something with more substance of "well we can never be perfect in this life". Second, I saw an article in which someone stated that if you don't believe in sinless perfection or if you have ever sinned since your supposed conversion then you hate holiness and are not even saved. Is there truth to that? Now I got frustrated at myself and even angry (I know THAT IS a sin!) at even the person writing the article because I do not want to "hate holiness" and although mistakes are not sins, that if you have ever sinned since salvation then you did not hate your sin or have conviction over it and I even prayed to Jesus that I do not want to be in sin and even asked God to make it impossible for me to sin but I am still frustrated. I still do not know if sinlessness is true or not. Because if it is then I want to get sinless. Often have I told God "I may fail you a lot in the future but please take these certain desires away".

I want to know, if sinless perfection is possible, and, what this verse, 1 John 3:9 means; "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." I think that is a strong indicator that sinless perfection might be true, I mean it very plainly says "does not sin". Is there truth to this here? I also want to note in verse 5 it says he was manifested to TAKE AWAY our sins and whoever abides in him does NOT sin. Now I know that some people say this verses just means if you are saved you don't PRACTICE sin but it that what John is saying? Any thoughts?


It isn't by any human effort that we cease from sin. But this is done by abiding in Christ. When we can remain (abide) in Him then sin is not an immediate option. You cannot sin in the presence of God. But if you don't remain in His presence but rather go off and live again as an independent person...then you will invariably sin.

The Christian's normal state should be holy and blameless. IF we sin we confess and return to the former state through forgiveness and cleansing in the blood of Christ. His blood takes away ALL iniquity...so then we are made pure. Remaining in that purity depends on maturity and learning to love and be obedient. Do we like being in God's will?