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anthony57
Dec 2nd 2012, 07:56 AM
Matt 1:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%201.21)

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Scripture could not be plainer than this, as to whom Jesus Christ (http://bibleforums.org/#) was born to save from their sins, whom He is a Saviour to, His People !

Not the whole world of mankind, for many of them are not His People, but the devils children, the children (http://bibleforums.org/#) of the wicked one Matt 13:38-39 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%2013.38-39)

38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

The tare and the wheat are both by nature children of wrath, that is depraved, and sinful.

By nature you cannot tell the tare [children of the devil] and the wheat [ children of God by election] apart

notice vs

29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Again, thats because the tare and the wheat are very similar in behaviour by nature, both are sinful.

Being a Sheep, or wheat, or Gods people, does not mean they are not as others, sinners by nature.

Jesus said of the tares, the enemy that sowed them was the devil.

Now these people whom Jesus is saying that the devil sowed them into the world, are not the people Christ came to save. He came to save these Matt 13:37 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%2013.37)

37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

He came to save the good seed, that He himself soweth, the Son of man.

The good seed is the elect as they stood in Adam in the beginning, remember after Adam was created, that He was pronounced very good, and He was said to be created in the image and likeness of God.

The Tares are the devils seed, remember when God told the Serpent [ the devil] that he had a seed ? Gen 3:15 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gen%203.15) so He [ the devil] is the enemy that sowed them.

For God never Loved those whom the devil sowed into the world, neither did Jesus come to save them from their sins, He did not give His life for the tares, the children of the wicked one. Show me a verse of scripture that declares that Jesus came to save them whom the devil sowed into the world !

In Jn 15:13 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Jn%2015.13) we read this:

13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

The devil nor his children are His friends, neither is the elect by nature, but He is their friend because they had before the world began, chosen in Him.

Now who are the people Christ came to save from their sins ? Who was the friend of God ?

2 Chron 20:7 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2%20Chron%2020.7)

7Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?

The Seed of Abraham thy Friend !

Isa 41:8 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Isa%2041.8)

8But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

James 2:23 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/James%202.23)

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Hence, Jesus people whom He shall save from their sins, is the seed of Abraham, for it was for this people only that He came into flesh and blood and identified with

Heb 2:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Heb%202.16)

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham [His friend].

Walls
Dec 2nd 2012, 09:26 AM
Anthon57

You have posted some seemingly unrelated scriptures and so your point is a bit obscure for the reader. So I will only comment on the scriptures with your point subtitling it.


Matt 1:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%201.21)

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Scripture could not be plainer than this, as to whom Jesus Christ (http://bibleforums.org/#) was born to save from their sins, whom He is a Saviour to, His People !

Not the whole world of mankind, for many of them are not His People, but the devils children, the children (http://bibleforums.org/#) of the wicked one Matt 13:38-39 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%2013.38-39)

The context of our Lord's birth in Matthew 1:21 is "Joseph thou son of David." So "your people" that Matthew talks of here must be Israel. David was king of unified Israel. This in accordance with the prophets (Isa.43:3 etc.). It is also in accordance with Zachariah's prophecy of Luke 1, the angels prophecy, Simeon's prophecy and Anna's prophecy, all of Luke 2.

Now concerning your statement about the Devil's Children, how do you reconcile the fact that "all Israel will be saved" (Rom.11:26) yet the Pharisees, being Israelites and Seed of Abraham (which the Lord did not deny - John 8:37) were called "you are of your father the devil" in John 8:44?


38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

The tare and the wheat are both by nature children of wrath, that is depraved, and sinful.

By nature you cannot tell the tare [children of the devil] and the wheat [ children of God by election] apart

notice vs

29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Again, thats because the tare and the wheat are very similar in behaviour by nature, both are sinful.

Being a Sheep, or wheat, or Gods people, does not mean they are not as others, sinners by nature.

Jesus said of the tares, the enemy that sowed them was the devil.

Now these people whom Jesus is saying that the devil sowed them into the world, are not the people Christ came to save. He came to save these Matt 13:37 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%2013.37)

37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

He came to save the good seed, that He himself soweth, the Son of man.

The good seed is the elect as they stood in Adam in the beginning, remember after Adam was created, that He was pronounced very good, and He was said to be created in the image and likeness of God.

A couple of observations as to your conclusion. Romans chapter 1 tells us that the things of God can be known by nature. This parable of the wheat and tares is a prime example.
The difference between the wheat and the tares in nature is twofold;

They are only discernibly different WHEN THE FRUIT APPEARS
They come from a different seed

Your contention that "The tare and the wheat are both by nature children of wrath, that is depraved, and sinful", contradicts your later statement, "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man". Our Lord said; "For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit" (Luke 6:43). How could the wheat bring forth good fruit if it was "by nature children of wrath?"

I submit that the correct version is that the seed which brought forth the wheat is the Holy Spirit (for Jesus is a Grain of Wheat - John 12:24), and the Tares are nominal Christians who look like, speak like and act like Christians but who, having not had their rebirth in the Holy Spirit, are imposters. Only when the fruit appears will the difference be known. The "Wheat" does not have its origin in Adam for Adam's seed must "ALL DIE" (1st Cor.15:22).


The Tares are the devils seed, remember when God told the Serpent [ the devil] that he had a seed ? Gen 3:15 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gen%203.15) so He [ the devil] is the enemy that sowed them.

For God never Loved those whom the devil sowed into the world, neither did Jesus come to save them from their sins, He did not give His life for the tares, the children of the wicked one. Show me a verse of scripture that declares that Jesus came to save them whom the devil sowed into the world !

But scripture says; "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved" (John 3:16-17), and, "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29), and "... he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1st John 2:2).

Is not the correct version that God loved ALL men but many of those He loved, and gave His Son Jesus for, will reject Him?



In Jn 15:13 we read this. 13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

The devil nor his children are His friends, neither is the elect by nature, but He is their friend because they had before the world began, chosen in Him.

Now who are the people Christ came to save from their sins ? Who was the friend of God ?

You should really give scriptures for this conclusion. Abraham was an idol worshipper (Josh.24:2), and only became "Friend" of God because of his faith (Jas.2:23). This would make him an enemy of God until he believed God. Same as the Good and Bad seed above. They were all Bad seed until the Sower sowed Good Seed. No-one denies that they were loved, elected and foreknown by God before time began, but your exegesis is contradictory.


2 Chron 20:7
7Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?

The Seed of Abraham thy Friend !

And here, contrary to your statement at the beginning, you MAKE ISRAEL GOD'S PEOPLE!


Hence, Jesus people whom He shall save from their sins, is the seed of Abraham, for it was for this people only that He came into flesh and blood and identified with

Is it not more correct to say the people who are saved BECOME the seed of Abraham through Christ? (Gal.3:28-29) "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal.3:29)! The context is "who will be seed of Abraham FOR INHERITING PROMISES?" The answer; Those who are (already become) Christ's are now become Seed of Abraham FOR INHERITANCE PURPOSES".

jesusislord
Dec 2nd 2012, 10:35 AM
AMEN to the passages!!!


AGAPE
MARK 12:29-31

-SEEKING-
Dec 2nd 2012, 02:20 PM
What does it say about a person who is quite proud of himself for being "chosen" but cares so little about the "un-chosen" so as to rub it in their faces. Shameful! What does the Bible say about pride?

TheDivineWatermark
Dec 2nd 2012, 02:49 PM
Originally Posted by anthony57

Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Scripture could not be plainer than this, as to whom Jesus Christ was born to save from their sins, whom He is a Saviour to, His People !

Not the whole world of mankind, for many of them are not His People, but the devils children, the children of the wicked one Matt 13:38-39

The context of our Lord's birth in Matthew 1:21 is "Joseph thou son of David." So "your people" that Matthew talks of here must be Israel. David was king of unified Israel. This in accordance with the prophets (Isa.43:3 etc.). It is also in accordance with Zachariah's prophecy of Luke 1, the angels prophecy, Simeon's prophecy and Anna's prophecy, all of Luke 2.


I agree with this answer. Right on.

Bandit
Dec 2nd 2012, 03:33 PM
Matt 1:21 He Shall save His People from their sins !


Matt 1:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%201.21)

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Scripture could not be plainer than this, as to whom ... He is a Saviour to, His People !

Not the whole world of mankind, for many of them are not His People ...


Um, I'm sensing a lot of assumptions here. Yes, Jesus came to save His people, but the question remains: "Who are His people?"

Are "His people" a fixed number of preselected individuals? (In which case one could ask what actual purpose the atonement served, for why "die" for those already saved by a decision in eternity past? And why or how would "faith" even be necessary in such a scenario?)

Or by "His people" could it mean any and all who would have faith in Him, applying the blood of the Lamb to the doorposts of their heart through faith? (In such a scenario the atonement is the actual saving act of God - a self-sacrifice for His people - and faith is that necessary ingredient by which man appropriates what God has provided.)

Scooby_Snacks
Dec 2nd 2012, 03:45 PM
What does it say about a person who is quite proud of himself for being "chosen" but cares so little about the "un-chosen" so as to rub it in their faces. Shameful! What does the Bible say about pride?

Do you actualy know people like this SEEKING?
How does a person know who belongs or will belong to God or not?
I suppose that is what I would say to someone who boasted on being chosen by God, yet had no compassion for others.

I would think being chosen from a complete state of unworthiness (in regard to specific doctrinal belief) is intended to bring a person to their knees, in servitude knowing that the mercy of God has been given them.

:hmm:

anthony57
Dec 2nd 2012, 11:21 PM
walls


The context of our Lord's birth in Matthew 1:21 is "Joseph thou son of David." So "your people" that Matthew talks of here must be Israel.

It is Israel, but not the Israel you think ! Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

anthony57
Dec 2nd 2012, 11:24 PM
Matt 1:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%201.21) He Shall save His People cont

Hence, Jesus people whom He shall save from their sins, is the seed of Abraham, for it was for this people only that He came into flesh and blood and identified with

Heb 2:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Heb%202.16)

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham [His friend].

Now it will be pointed out that the seed of Abraham, that is Christ people whom He shall save from their sins, is not limited to ethnic jews, but to all who will believe in Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:29 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gal%203.29)

[B]29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

These are also the heirs of promise and children of promise Rom 9:8 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom%209.8)

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

One of biggest blunders in our day is to think that ethnic jews, because of their race, are the people of God.

The seed of Abraham that Christ came to save and whom He identified with, were children of promise, and was comprised of ethnic diversity of every nation.

If we look back to the time when Abraham's name was changed to Abraham from Abram in Gen 17:5 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gen%2017.5)

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

We find that it was changed because God made him a Father of not one nation, but of many Nations !

Now if he was declared to be their Father, it goes without reason they were declared to be his seed.

So how did Abraham have a seed of all these different ethnicities ? Because they had been [before the creation of the world] chosen in Christ Abraham's True seed. Gal 3:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gal%203.16)

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The ethnic jews mistake [ even those who became true believers in Christ as peter] was that they thought they were the only ethnic group that was Abraham's seed.

Peter preached the gospel to some jews in Acts 3:24-25 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Acts%203.24-25)


24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

But peter did not realize that the same promise belonged to gentiles as Paul pointed out in Gal 3:8 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gal%203.8)

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Both preachers peter and paul are referring back to the same declaration in Gen 12:3 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gen%2012.3)

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

And it is sad today to say the same delusion still is prevalent in religion of our day.

It is clear however, that God gave Abraham a seed of diverse nations in Gen 17:5 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gen%2017.5), for that is when He first was called Abraham by God.

Thats Paul's argument in Rom 4:10-12 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom%204.10-12)

10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.


11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

God gave Abraham the promises while in uncircumcision [ non ethnic jew] that He might be the Father of all them that believe [ Gen 17:5 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gen%2017.5)]

This is the seed of Abraham, that Jesus identified with Heb 2:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Heb%202.16), that is who His people are that He came to save Matt 1:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%201.21).

Walls
Dec 3rd 2012, 01:41 PM
Matt 1:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%201.21) He Shall save His People cont

Hence, Jesus people whom He shall save from their sins, is the seed of Abraham, for it was for this people only that He came into flesh and blood and identified with

Heb 2:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Heb%202.16)

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham [His friend].

Now it will be pointed out that the seed of Abraham, that is Christ people whom He shall save from their sins, is not limited to ethnic jews, but to all who will believe in Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:29 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gal%203.29)

[B]29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

These are also the heirs of promise and children of promise Rom 9:8 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom%209.8)

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

One of biggest blunders in our day is to think that ethnic jews, because of their race, are the people of God.

The seed of Abraham that Christ came to save and whom He identified with, were children of promise, and was comprised of ethnic diversity of every nation.

If we look back to the time when Abraham's name was changed to Abraham from Abram in Gen 17:5 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gen%2017.5)

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

We find that it was changed because God made him a Father of not one nation, but of many Nations !

Now if he was declared to be their Father, it goes without reason they were declared to be his seed.

So how did Abraham have a seed of all these different ethnicities ? Because they had been [before the creation of the world] chosen in Christ Abraham's True seed. Gal 3:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gal%203.16)

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The ethnic jews mistake [ even those who became true believers in Christ as peter] was that they thought they were the only ethnic group that was Abraham's seed.

Peter preached the gospel to some jews in Acts 3:24-25 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Acts%203.24-25)


24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

But peter did not realize that the same promise belonged to gentiles as Paul pointed out in Gal 3:8 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gal%203.8)

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Both preachers peter and paul are referring back to the same declaration in Gen 12:3 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gen%2012.3)

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

And it is sad today to say the same delusion still is prevalent in religion of our day.

It is clear however, that God gave Abraham a seed of diverse nations in Gen 17:5 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gen%2017.5), for that is when He first was called Abraham by God.

Thats Paul's argument in Rom 4:10-12 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom%204.10-12)

10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.


11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

God gave Abraham the promises while in uncircumcision [ non ethnic jew] that He might be the Father of all them that believe [ Gen 17:5 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gen%2017.5)]

This is the seed of Abraham, that Jesus identified with Heb 2:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Heb%202.16), that is who His people are that He came to save Matt 1:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%201.21).

anthony57

What say you to these verses in 1st Timothy 2:1-5?

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

And these from 2nd Corinthians 5:14-15?

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again."

In verse 15 above you can see that "they that live" shows that not all men will accept and apply this death. But nevertheless, the sacrifice was for "ALL."

anthony57
Dec 3rd 2012, 01:53 PM
wall


What say you to these verses in 1st Timothy 2:1-5?


I said something of those verses in a different thread. Howver, please deal with the my post you just quoted and then evaded. Please explain eavh point I made wheter you agtree or not to let me know that you understood each point !

The different thread referred to is here:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/243477-Scriptures-that-appear-to-Teach-against-limited-Atonement-!?p=2922081#post2922081

RabbiKnife
Dec 3rd 2012, 01:58 PM
I disagree with the post because it is a classic example of eisegesis.

anthony57
Dec 3rd 2012, 02:02 PM
I disagree with the post because it is a classic example of eisegesis.

Which post do you disagree with ? Please rehearse each point that I made, tell me what I meant, then show us why you disagree with each point adding your detailed explanation !

RabbiKnife
Dec 3rd 2012, 02:17 PM
The FIRST one.

You have a predetermined "personal truth" of which you feel the need to instruct us unwashed masses.

So, you take isolated passages of Scripture, pluck them from the contexts in which they were stated, and exclaim "AH AH, the FIRST, you cretin."

Sorry. Not interested.

It is not honest. It is not rational. It is not helpful.

And it is certainly not "rightly dividing the Word of Truth."

divaD
Dec 3rd 2012, 03:16 PM
Matt 1:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%201.21)

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Scripture could not be plainer than this, as to whom Jesus Christ (http://bibleforums.org/#) was born to save from their sins, whom He is a Saviour to, HisPeople !

Not the whole world of mankind, for many of them are not His People, but the devils children, the children (http://bibleforums.org/#) of the wicked one Matt 13:38-39 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%2013.38-39)

38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

The tare and the wheat are both by nature children of wrath, that is depraved, and sinful.

By nature you cannot tell the tare [children of the devil] and the wheat [ children of God by election] apart

notice vs

29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Again, thats because the tare and the wheat are very similar in behaviour by nature, both are sinful.

Being a Sheep, or wheat, or Gods people, does not mean they are not as others, sinners by nature.

Jesus said of the tares, the enemy that sowed them was the devil.

Now these people whom Jesus is saying that the devil sowed them into the world, are not the people Christ came to save. He came to save these Matt 13:37 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%2013.37)

37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

He came to save the good seed, that He himself soweth, the Son of man.

The good seed is the elect as they stood in Adam in the beginning, remember after Adam was created, that He was pronounced very good, and He was said to be created in the image and likeness of God.

The Tares are the devils seed, remember when God told the Serpent [ the devil] that he had a seed ? Gen 3:15 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gen%203.15) so He [ the devil] is the enemy that sowed them.

For God never Loved those whom the devil sowed into the world, neither did Jesus come to save them from their sins, He did not give His life for the tares, the children of the wicked one. Show me a verse of scripture that declares that Jesus came to save them whom the devil sowed into the world !

In Jn 15:13 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Jn%2015.13) we read this:

13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

The devil nor his children are His friends, neither is the elect by nature, but He is their friend because they had before the world began, chosen in Him.

Now who are the people Christ came to save from their sins ? Who was the friend of God ?

2 Chron 20:7 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2%20Chron%2020.7)

7Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?

The Seed of Abraham thy Friend !

Isa 41:8 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Isa%2041.8)

8But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

James 2:23 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/James%202.23)

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Hence, Jesus people whom He shall save from their sins, is the seed of Abraham, for it was for this people only that He came into flesh and blood and identified with

Heb 2:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Heb%202.16)

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham [His friend].



Are you yourself saved? Are you an ethnic born Jew? If the answer is yes to the former, and no to the latter, then going by the way you're reasoning all of this, you can't be saved, since, clearly His people is meaning the ethnic Jews in this context. Why do you continually disregard context? Context determines how something is to be understood. But the fact is, tho the context was only meaning the ethnic Jews, we know from Scripture that that wasn't the only ones He came to save from their sins, since Gentiles aren't ethnic Jews, and that they can indeed be saved from their sins as well. Ironically then, meaning you are correct about the following, His people do end up being both Jew and Gentile. But you have to twist Scripture to come to that conclusion, so that it fits with your overall position on things, while the rest of us, or at least most of us, we let Scripture speak for itself.



Remember when I indicated context determines things? That same phrase 'His people', it is used elsewhere in the gospels. Take very close attention of to the following passage, and I will try and teach you a little something about context, since I'm convinced you usually ignore context.


Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

Let's stop here for a sec. Who is 'His people' meaning in this context, since it's obvious that an horn of salvation is referring to Jesus, the Son of God? Is it meaning the Israel you think it is meaning? Or in context, is it meaning the ethnic Jews? In order to clearly determine whom it is meaning, we need to read on a bit.

Luke 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;


Did you see that? Did you notice the part about 'our fathers'? Clearly that is in regards to the ethnic Jews, thus telling us how 'His people' are to be understood in this content. It is then unreasonable to conclude that 'His people' when used elsewhere in the gospels, such as Matt 1:21, that this is not meaning these same ethnic Jews.

anthony57
Dec 3rd 2012, 08:26 PM
rabbit


The FIRST one.

Please rehearse each point that I made, tell me what I meant, then show us why you disagree with each point adding your detailed explanation !

anthony57
Dec 3rd 2012, 08:31 PM
diva


Are you yourself saved?

Don't worry about me, I nor you are the subjects of this thread. Now you quoted the OP but did not comment on the points, you are evasive. So please reharse the points I made with scripture, just so I know you understand the points I made, for you may not agree with them for whatever reason, but if you disagree with them, show us why you do from scripture with explanation !

Walls
Dec 3rd 2012, 08:41 PM
wall



I said something of those verses in a different thread. Howver, please deal with the my post you just quoted and then evaded. Please explain eavh point I made wheter you agtree or not to let me know that you understood each point !

The different thread referred to is here:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/243477-Scriptures-that-appear-to-Teach-against-limited-Atonement-!?p=2922081#post2922081

Anthony 57

If you answered my questions 10 years ago in a different thread before I was even privy to this Forum, does this absolve you from the discussion at hand? And if you demand a full answer to your posting, how come you "evaded" my first answer (posting #2)? Shall not the rules apply equally to all?

anthony57
Dec 3rd 2012, 08:44 PM
Anthony 57

If you answered my questions 10 years ago in a different thread before I was even privy to this Forum, does this absolve you from the discussion at hand? And if you demand a full answer to your posting, how come you "evaded" my first answer (posting #2)? Shall not the rules apply equally to all?

However, please deal with the my post you just quoted and then evaded.

Walls
Dec 4th 2012, 12:03 PM
However, please deal with the my post you just quoted and then evaded.

Anthony57, as a courtesy to a bother in the Lord I will answer your points. It seems to me (I may be wrong) that English is not your mother tongue. But I will not take this into account, as to deal with your statements AS THEY ARE is to honor what you said, not what I think you wanted to say. So if you meant something else please remember this.


Matt.1:21 He Shall save His People cont

Hence, Jesus people whom He shall save from their sins, is the seed of Abraham, for it was for this people only that He came into flesh and blood and identified with

This is incorrect. The saved ones BECOME the seed BECAUSE they are Christ’s. They BECOME the seed BECAUSE of a New Birth VIA Christ. Until then, they are ALL seed of Adam, and some the seed of Abraham according to the flesh. Most of the seed of Abraham according to the flesh did not believe in Jesus and are NOT saved.


Heb 2:16

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham [His friend].

Now it will be pointed out that the seed of Abraham, that is Christ people whom He shall save from their sins, is not limited to ethnic jews, but to all [both jew and gentile] who will believe in Jesus Christ.

The Book of Hebrews was written to believers who were originally Jews, and who were in danger of sliding back to Moses. The author of Hebrews shows Christ’s superiority in a number of matters in the first few Chapters. In Chapter 2, the author of Hebrews shows that although angels are created superior to men (Psalm 8:5), Jesus was 100% a Man. And a special Man because He came from Abraham and it is to Abraham and his seed that the world will be given to (Rom.4:13). Hebrews 2:16 has nothing to do with who is saved and who is not. It has to do with the superiority of Christ, the Man, over angels.


Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

These are also the heirs of promise and children of promise

Your connection here to Hebrews 2:16 does not make sense. You should have written more of an explanation.


Rom 9:8

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

One of biggest blunders in our day is to think that ethnic jews, because of their race, are the people of God.

You say this. I will let scripture speak for itself.

Ex 3:7. “And the Lord said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;”

Ex 3:10. “Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.”

Ex 5:11. “And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.”

Ex 7:44. “But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.”

There are dozens more of such verses.



The seed of Abraham that Christ came to save and whom He identified with, were children of promise, and was comprised of ethnic diversity of every nation.

No. The Lord Jesus came to save the fleshly seed of Abraham, the Jews. They rejected Him and murdered Him. He then opened salvation to INDIVIDUALS from all nations including the nation of Israel. Anyone who accepts this offer becomes seed of Abraham via his/her new birth IN CHRIST FOR THE PURPOSE of the inheritance of God’s promises to Abraham.


If we look back to the time when Abraham's name was changed to Abraham from Abram in Gen 17:5

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

We find that it was changed because God made him a Father of not one nation, but of many Nations !

Now if he was declared to be their Father, it goes without reason they were declared to be his seed.

So how did Abraham have a seed of all these different ethnicities ? Because they had been [before the creation of the world] chosen in Christ Abraham's True seed.

Abraham did become father of many nations BUT NOT ALL NATIONS. So your argument fails on that point, because Christ’s redemptive work is directed to ALL men. You have placed the cart before the horse in every case of your thesis. Those saved by Christ’s redemptive work BECOME seed of Abraham. It is NOT that Christ came for those who were already seed of Abraham via Christ.



Gal 3:16
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The ethnic jews mistake [ even those who became true believers in Christ as peter] was that they thought they were the only ethnic group that was Abraham's seed.

This is true. But is has no bearing on your argument because we are discussing “Who Christ came to save.” Not “who had the right doctrine about Messiah.” Added to this, I would not call it a mistake because the prophets had promised a Messiah to Israel.


Peter preached the gospel to some jews in Acts 3:24-25

24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

But peter did not realize that the same promise belonged to gentiles as Paul pointed out in Gal 3:8

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Both preachers peter and paul are referring back to the same declaration in Gen 12:3

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

And it is sad today to say the same delusion still is prevalent in religion of our day.

What delusion?


It is clear however, that God gave Abraham a seed of diverse nations in Gen 17:5, for that is when He first was called Abraham by God.

The sum total of the nations that came from Abraham’s loins are listed in Genesis Chapter 25:1-18. This is a small fraction of the nations of the world, then and now.


Thats Paul's argument in Rom 4:10-12

10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.


11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

God gave Abraham the promises while in uncircumcision [ non ethnic jew] that He might be the Father of all them that believe [ Gen 17:5]

This is the seed of Abraham, that Jesus identified with Heb 2:16, that is who His people are that He came to save Matt 1:21.

You can build your argument without the context of Romans Chapter 4, but no one will take you seriously. The context of Romans 4:10-12 is “righteousness imputed to sinners by faith and NOT by Law FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF BEING HEIR TO THE WORLD. Thus, Paul argues against the objections of the Jew who might say, “we Israelites are recipients of the promises AND the only way to fulfill them - THE LAW.” Paul argues; "But the receiving of the promises was before Law, and even before circumcision. So the receiving of the promise to inherit the world is by faith – the same faith that Abraham had before Circumcision and Law. So Abraham becomes the Father of those who have faith, being the forerunner of the faithful FOR RECEIVING THE PROMISE to inherit the world."

The issue of Romans Chapter 4 is, "You Jews… you think that the promise to inherit the world is exclusively yours because it was given to Abraham your father and gained by LAW. But dear Jews… consider this, the PROMISE TO INHERIT was not based on the Law you are so proud of. It is based on faith – a faith that existed BEFORE Law and circumcision. So do not be astounded when you see the Gentiles get in line for the inheritance. They do so BY FAITH."

Anthony57, your very concise conclusions do not fully explain what you are trying to get at. I cannot speak for the other members of this Forum, but I get the impression that you are trying to convey that Christ came only for a pre-selected group of people. But this is not true. There are three different aspects of this matter and you only address one.

The first aspect is that God had a plan with man. It was fourfold;

Man should be in the image and likeness of God to express Him
Man should become the new king of the earth and its environs of sea and sky
Man should dress and keep a Garden in which he could have holy fellowship with God
Man should be a help “meet” for God’s Son Jesus


Satan came in and temporarily disrupted this plan. It is in God’s interest (to testify to His sovereignty, power and wisdom AND restore His original purpose) to redeem ALL men for the accomplishing of His purpose. Thus, scripture says that;

Christ came for all men
Christ died for all men
Christ paid for the sins of all men
God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of Christ


The second aspect is that God gave men their free will. Because man is in the “likeness” of God he is sovereign in his decisions. God, in His power, may engineer circumstances to thwart men’s decisions, but He does not interfere with the decision-making process of a man. But once man had fallen, he was like a snowball going down the mountainside to hell below. Even if he decided to turn back, he did not possess the power to do it. Paul says that sin is a “Law of the flesh” that cannot be overturned (Rom.7:23). So even men who wanted to go God’s way, can’t. Therefore God gives each the measure of faith needed (Rom.12:13).

The third aspect is God’s foreknowledge. God, knowing all things, and knowing the end from the beginning, knew who would accept Christ and who would not. Therefore, He makes our Lord Jesus to die for all men and for all sins ever committed, but He does not invest in those who He knows will refuse Him. He does not “cast His pearl before the swine.” So Romans 8:29 says; “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Notice, it is NOT “Whom He did predestinate to be saved.” It is those whom He “foreknew” that are predestinated “to be conformed to the image of His Son”, bringing us back to the original purpose out of Genesis 1:26-28.

anthony57
Dec 4th 2012, 02:16 PM
walls


This is incorrect. The saved ones BECOME the seed BECAUSE they are Christ’s.

They were Christ's Seed given Him before the World began Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

They were Christ's Seed before they became Adam's Seed ! They were given to Christ beffoundationoundatin of the World, but they became Adam's Seed at the Creation of the World !


The Book of Hebrews was written to believers who were originally Jews

That does not matter, its still written to people Christ died for ! The Seed of Abraham. Abraham had a Seed given Him comprised of all Nations of men Gen 17:5

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

This was not Abraham's Seed according to the Flesh, but a Spiritual Seed !


The sum total of the nations that came from Abraham’s loins are listed in Genesis Chapter 25:1-18. This is a small fraction of the nations of the world, then and now.

Nothing to do with any of Abraham's Physical Children according to the flesh, none of them are Children of God Rom 9:8

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Even ethnic jews who are merely ethnic jews by flesh, these are not God's Children nor Abraham's children according to the promises. Jesus told pure etAbraham'ss this who were abaham's seed by mere natural birth :

Jn 8:39

They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

You see, they were not Abraham's Children according to Promise, even though Jesus did acknowledge they were his children by the flesh earlier here Jn 8:37

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

So they were in one sense, mere flesh, but in another a more important sense they were not Abraham's Children !

Neither were they God's Children because they were ethnic jews, because Jesus does say to them as ethnic jews this Jn 8:41-42

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

So the Seed of Abraham that Christ took on were not Abraham's physical descendants according to the flesh, because that does not constitute them the Children of God, sorry.



But that Seed Christ took on Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Now what does Vs 14 say of these same ones ? Heb 2:14

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

He took on the same as the Children ! But again, Abraham's seed according to the flesh are not the Children Rom 9:8

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

They are not the Children of Abraham referred to in Heb 2:14-16 ! Got it ? If you do not get this, you will never understand the rest of the Truth I am witnessing to !

RabbiKnife
Dec 4th 2012, 05:13 PM
I make it a rule to not argue with people who have so made up their mind that they will not be honest about the proper methods of biblical interpretation.

Instead, I just leave them to their own delusion, and to God. They may be my brothers and sisters in Christ, but just like crazy Uncle Louis at Thanksgiving, I just leave them in the corner with a plate of sweet potatoes and jello salad with marshmallows and nod my head at them, as nothing I could ever say would make any difference.

John146
Dec 4th 2012, 07:25 PM
wall



I said something of those verses in a different thread. Howver, please deal with the my post you just quoted and then evaded. Please explain eavh point I made wheter you agtree or not to let me know that you understood each point !

The different thread referred to is here:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/243477-Scriptures-that-appear-to-Teach-against-limited-Atonement-!?p=2922081#post2922081Here you are criticizing someone for supposedly evading your post while you have not bothered to respond to my posts in the thread you are linking to here. How ironic.

Everyone, it is a complete waste of your time to try to have a discussion with Anthony. He is very childish and repetitive and is not willing to engage most of the challenges made to his views.

anthony57
Dec 5th 2012, 11:08 AM
walls


No. The Lord Jesus came to save the fleshly seed of Abraham, the Jews.

Thats false teaching. He came to save all the Children of promise, for the jews of the flesh are not counted as the seed ! Rom 9:8

8 That is, They[Ethnic jews only] which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Walls
Dec 5th 2012, 11:56 AM
walls



Thats false teaching. He came to save all the Children of promise, for the jews of the flesh are not counted as the seed ! Rom 9:8

8 That is, They[Ethnic jews only] which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

No. You treat other people's writings like you treat those of God. You cut them from their context. Here is my full statement.

"No. The Lord Jesus came to save the fleshly seed of Abraham, the Jews. They rejected Him and murdered Him. He then opened salvation to INDIVIDUALS from all nations including the nation of Israel. Anyone who accepts this offer becomes seed of Abraham via his/her new birth IN CHRIST FOR THE PURPOSE of the inheritance of God’s promises to Abraham."

I'll repeat the sequence for you. God, through the prophets, promised a Messiah to Israel, the ones whom Paul calls "my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh." It is only when Israel, as a nation, reject him that He turns to INDIVIDUALS of all of the nations, including the nation of Israel. That God foreknew this does not change His integrity. He presented His Son Jesus EXCLUSIVELY to the Jews FIRST. THEN He turns to ALL Men.

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt.10:5-6).

"And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt.15:22-24)

divaD
Dec 5th 2012, 03:28 PM
Here you are criticizing someone for supposedly evading your post while you have not bothered to respond to my posts in the thread you are linking to here. How ironic.

Everyone, it is a complete waste of your time to try to have a discussion with Anthony. He is very childish and repetitive and is not willing to engage most of the challenges made to his views.


I fully agree. I personally think he needs a little coffee break myself, but that is not my decision to make, only how I feel about it. I simply don't believe he is teaching Scripture much of the time, since he has to twist Scripture to come to the conclusions he does. It would be more fruitful if he could at least acknowledge he could be wrong on some things. But from what I can tell, that's entirely out of the question when it comes to him.

anthony57
Dec 5th 2012, 11:25 PM
wall


No. You treat other people's writings like you treat those of God.

I pointed out your error, deal with it !

anthony57
Dec 8th 2012, 01:46 AM
To preach a gospel that does not focus on the Truth that Christ came into the world to actually save certain sinners, instead of making all men without exception with the possibility of getting saved depending on what they do, that is to preach a false gospel.

1 Tim 1:15 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20Tim%201.15)

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

John146
Dec 8th 2012, 02:55 PM
To preach a gospel that does not focus on the Truth that Christ came into the world to actually save certain sinners, instead of making all men without exception with the possibility of getting saved depending on what they do, that is to preach a false gospel.

1 Tim 1:15 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20Tim%201.15)

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.Where does this say He came to save some sinners rather than provide a way of salvation for all sinners? You are a false teacher and should be ignored.

anthony57
Dec 9th 2012, 12:40 AM
Where does this say He came to save some sinners rather than provide a way of salvation for all sinners? You are a false teacher and should be ignored.

Where does it say that Christ did not come to save some sinners and that He came to provide a way for all sinners to be saved ?

anthony57
Dec 9th 2012, 12:45 AM
Matt 1:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%201.21)

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Who is meant when its assured that Jesus shall save His People from their sins ?

Many mistakenly believe that this means ethnic jews ! But thats insane, for that would mean that Jesus is to assuredly save from their sins all ethnic jews ! And anyone with any reason knows thats not true.

For Jesus warned some ethnic jews that they had no chance of escaping the damnation of hell Matt 23:32-33 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%2023.32-33)

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

So His People are not ethnic jews, some are, as well as some people from different ethnic groups are.

But His People are all those who are foreknown of God Rom 11:1-2 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom%2011.1-2)

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

Thats who the His people is. All those regardless of race who are the foreknown of God , those who are to be conformed into the image of Christ.

Rom 8:29 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom%208.29)

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

That makes sense, those who are foreknown as He was 1 Pet 1:20 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20Pet%201.20)

20Who verily was foreordained [foreknow] before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

The same are His People, His brethren.

All believers in Christ, those who belong to Him are of the seed of Abraham per Gal 3:28-29 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gal%203.28-29)

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And He took on the seed of His People , the seed of Abraham Heb 2:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Heb%202.16)

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

So, His people in Matt 1:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%201.21) are all those who eventually believe in Him, belonging to Him, and ethnicity is not the condition. The condition is being of those whom God foreknew !

Rom 11:2 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom%2011.2)

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

anthony57
Dec 9th 2012, 11:51 PM
Matt 1:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%201.21)

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The promise is not that He shall save all people without exception from their sins, but His People.

His People are those that are foreknown of God as per Rom 11:2 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom%2011.2)

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

And No, all people are not foreknown by Jesus Christ as per Matt 7:23 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%207.23)

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now since He says He never knew them, then He never knew them before ! Which is what foreknow means:

Its made of Two greek words:

pro ginōskō

pro means:

before

ginosko means:

to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel

a) to become known

2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of

So those whom are not of the foreknown, are not the people who He came to save from their sins, for He never knew them.

Raybob
Dec 10th 2012, 08:59 AM
... And No, all people are not foreknown by Jesus Christ as per Matt 7:23 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%207.23)

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now since He says He never knew them, then He never knew them before !

...

Luke records Jesus' words with more detail, to fully explain the "never knew". This is NOT an event "before" anything, but 'after', at Judgment Day!

Luk 13:27-28 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

John146
Dec 12th 2012, 07:45 PM
Where does it say that Christ did not come to save some sinners and that He came to provide a way for all sinners to be saved ?Since you didn't answer my question I have to assume that you are not aware of any verses which teach that He came only to save some sinners rather than providing a way for all sinners to have the opportunity to be saved?

Anyway, to answer your question, it teaches that in passages like Matt 22:1-14, Luke 19:10, John 1:29, John 3:16-18, John 4:42, Acts 17:30-31, Rom 5:6 & 18, 1 John 2:1-2, 1 John 4:14, 2 Cor 5:14-15, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 Tim 4:10, 2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 3:9, Titus 2:11, and Heb 2:9.