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northwye
Dec 7th 2012, 01:46 PM
Over-Allegorization or Over-Literalization of the 144,000

The historical premillennialists thought that Christ would rule on earth for a thousand years following the tribulation period. Perhaps they did not all think the thousand years was a literal period. But they did not hold to anything like a pre-millennial rapture. And they did not teach that physical Israel remains the chosen people. This was all before the time of Origen (184-253 A.D.). Before Origen, Ireneaus [140-203], Justin Martyr [100-165], and Papias [80-155], and others were historical premillennialists.

Origen made use of broad allegory in interpreting Scripture, and Augustine followed his lead, saying the thousand year reign of Christ in Rev 20: 1-8 is an allegory of all the "church" age. Catholics and traditional Calvinists do the same. Catholics and many Calvinists now say that the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 are merely the saved people of the entire "church age.".

This Over-Allegorization by the Catholics and Calvinists of the 144,000 as a Remnant in the last days destroys their ministry - for the Catholics and Calvinists.

Daniel 11: 33 says "And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days."

The 144, 000, who follow Christ wherever he goes, and are not deceptive (Revelation 14: 5), are witnesses to Christ at a time near the last trumpet and before the end of the tribulation of Matthew 24: 29-30.

On the other hand, the Christian Zionists, or dispensationalists, Over-Literalize the 144,000.

The site http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/es...william-e-cox/

says "Dispensationalists boast of literal interpretation of
Scripture, and cast aspersions at those who "spiritualize" some
passages of the Bible. Charles C. Ryrie, President of The Philadelphia
College of the Bible, says: (Bibliotheca Sacra, Vol. 114, July, 1957,
p. 254), only dispensationalism provides the key to consistent
literalism."

Charles Ryrie says that "Dispensationalists claim that their principle of hermeneutics is that of literal interpretation. This means interpretation gives to every word the same meaning it would have in normal usage, whether employed in writing, speaking, or thinking. It is sometimes called the principle of since the meaning of each word is determined by grammatical and historical considerations. The principle might also be called normal interpretation since the literal meaning of words is the normal approach to their understanding in all languages. It might also be designated plain interpretation so that no one receives the mistaken notion that the literal principle rules out figures of speech. Symbols, figures of speech, and types are all interpreted plainly in this method, and they are in no way contrary to literal interpretation. After all, the very existence of any meaning for a figure of speech depends on the reality of the literal meaning of the terms involved. Figures often make the meaning plainer, but it is the literal, normal, or plain meaning that they convey to the reader." [Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism, Revised and Expanded, (Chicago: Moody Press, 1995), 80-1]

Christian Zionists will usually interpret a text by use of their theology, and/or by their their literalist grammatical-historical interpretation system rather than by other scriptures as was more often done prior to the 19th and 20th century takeover of so many denominations by this theology.

Therefore since the Book of Revelation lists the 12 tribes of Israel in Revelation 7: 4-8, and Revelation 14: 4 says they are not defiled with women and are virgins, therefore, following their
"Hermeneutics," from the pagan god Hermes, the 144,000 cannot be any other group than male Jewish virgins.

For example, the Christian Zionists would never look at Revelation 17: 1-11 where the metaphor of the "great *****" and a "woman" are used in talking about false religion or apostasy of several religions. These verses, for Christian Zionists, cannot be relevant to Revelation 17: 1-11 because their theology demands an honoring of physical Israel and the use of the humanistic grammatical-historical or literal method of intrpretation.

John Darby, known as the father of dispensationalism said " "The Church has sought to settle itself here, but it has no place on the earth... [Though] making a most constructive parenthesis, it forms no part of the regular order of God's earthly plans, but is merely an interruption of them to give a fuller character and meaning to them..."

John. N. Darby, 'The Character of Office in The Present Dispensation' Collected Writings., Eccl. I, Vol. I, p. 94.

"Them" are physical Israel (I Corinthians 10: 18, Romans 9: 8). The church, for Darby, exists to "give fuller character and meaning to all physical Israel." Darby thought that the purpose of the Christian church, the ekklesia as a meeting, assembly or congregation of Israel reborn in Christ, the Israel of God, made into The Body of Christ like the Catholic capital C Church, was to honor all physical Israel. The dispensationalists say that God's people, the Jews, are earthy. They are involved in physical and literal things, like the blood sacrifice of animals, a literal bloodline from Abraham, circumcision, and a physical temple building.

So, the followers of John Darby must say the 144,000 are all male Jewish virgins in order to honor physical Israel. This does not mean that there cannot be some people who will belong to the 144,000, and may now be part of the remnant, that were formerly Jewish in the flesh and in their doctrines. Those in Messianic Judaism mix the two covenants and are not witnesses to Christ in full because of their doctrines.

It is not given to those who Over-Allegorize or Over-Literalize the 144,000 to understand the truth about them at this time. There are other prophecies for which an understanding has not been given to those in various man-made theologies, or even to the Remnant at this point in time. Revelation 11 on the Two Witnesses, with its several statements from Revelation 11: 1 to Revelation 11: 6, are verses difficult to understand - and as far as I know, no one has been given the full meaning of these verses for a metaphoric understanding of this chapter.

timf
Dec 7th 2012, 03:18 PM
Those in Messianic Judaism mix the two covenants and are not witnesses to Christ in full because of their doctrines.

What "two" covenants?

There was a covenant offered to Israel and accepted by her in Sinai with Moses.

Jeremiah prophesied of a New covenant to be offered to Israel.

Jesus came and offered the new covenant and sealed it with His death and resurrection.

Israel has not yet accepted this new covenant, but she will.

Raybob
Dec 8th 2012, 09:34 AM
What "two" covenants?

There was a covenant offered to Israel and accepted by her in Sinai with Moses.

Jeremiah prophesied of a New covenant to be offered to Israel.

Jesus came and offered the new covenant and sealed it with His death and resurrection.

Israel has not yet accepted this new covenant, but she will.Israel did accept it, at least those chosen of Israel. Remember not all of Israel is Israel. I'm Jewish by my dad's side of the family. I'm Christian by faith. That makes me a Messianic Jew, but I don't keep the OT covenant with it's laws. I sure don't, because Jesus put the law in my heart, with the Holy Spirit. That happened because the new covenant made the old covenant obsolete.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

rejoice44
Dec 8th 2012, 02:28 PM
Some of the basic problems in considering the 144,000 are those that add to what the scriptures say in reference to them.

The bible does not say that they will come back to earth to be witnesses of Christ. Rather, they are with Christ, and they never leave Christ.

The bible does not say that the sealing of the 144,000 is future. Rather it is always past tense.

The Old Testament references the sealing in the forehead of Jews in Ezekiel chapter 9.

The New Testament says they are the firstfruits unto God.

Why wouldn’t you expect that perhaps they are those that arose with Christ on the third day?

God's legacy
Dec 8th 2012, 03:44 PM
Yes the 144,000 are called "firstfruits' in Rev 14. But in chapter 7, it is clear that the 144,000 are only a small part of the firstfruit harvest.

In verse 9, 10 of chapter 7 we read " behold a great multitude which no one could number of all nations, tribes, people and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes.............."

Both these groups make their appearance after the Great tribulation and just before the Day of the Lord-it's not just the 144,000.

Raybob
Dec 8th 2012, 06:36 PM
Some of the basic problems in considering the 144,000 are those that add to what the scriptures say in reference to them.

The bible does not say that they will come back to earth to be witnesses of Christ. Rather, they are with Christ, and they never leave Christ.

The bible does not say that the sealing of the 144,000 is future. Rather it is always past tense...

Also, the tribe names are different. Some are missing, some are added. This is obviously the "New Jerusalem" or the completed church.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

rejoice44
Dec 8th 2012, 09:29 PM
Yes the 144,000 are called "firstfruits' in Rev 14. But in chapter 7, it is clear that the 144,000 are only a small part of the firstfruit harvest.

In verse 9, 10 of chapter 7 we read " behold a great multitude which no one could number of all nations, tribes, people and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes.............."

Both these groups make their appearance after the Great tribulation and just before the Day of the Lord-it's not just the 144,000.

The 144,000 are sealed before any tribulation, nor is it stated that they came out of tribulation as the other group. If it was not the 144,000 that arose on resurrection day, who were they that arose?

rejoice44
Dec 8th 2012, 09:36 PM
Also, the tribe names are different. Some are missing, some are added. This is obviously the "New Jerusalem" or the completed church.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Isn't there only one tribe missing, and wouldn't that be Dan? Jacob said of his son Dan - Genesis 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

Perhaps Dan foreshadowed Judas, and was replaced.

God's legacy
Dec 9th 2012, 01:27 AM
The 144,000 are sealed before any tribulation, nor is it stated that they came out of tribulation as the other group. If it was not the 144,000 that arose on resurrection day, who were they that arose?

The sealing of the 144,000 was to protect them from the coming trumpet plagues during the Day of the Lord

Sealing has to do with receiving God's Holy Spirit - Eph 1: 13-14

Rev 7: 13-14 - " these are they who came out of the great tribulation" refers to the 144,000 and the great multitude (a far greater number than 144,000)

There was no resurrection up until Jesus returns in the Day of the Lord-the first resurrection is all those dead in Christ from past ages of mankind like David, and Abraham, etc. and they join those who are alive in Christ and instantly transformed into spirit being to meet Jesus up in the air. Then the 1.000 year reign of Christ begins. After the 1,000 period is over all the rest of the dead who ever lived on earth rise up and are eventually in the Great white throne judgment.
Then the New heaven and earth begins-that's the time frame I know.

rejoice44
Dec 9th 2012, 02:43 AM
The sealing of the 144,000 was to protect them from the coming trumpet plagues during the Day of the Lord

Let me ask you when they are sealed. Are they sealed now?


Sealing has to do with receiving God's Holy Spirit - Eph 1: 13-14

Are you saying sealing only has to do with receiving God's Holy Spirit?


Rev 7: 13-14 - " these are they who came out of the great tribulation" refers to the 144,000 and the great multitude (a far greater number than 144,000)

It doesn't say that. The book of Revelation is about the past, the present, and the future. You are tying the two groups together where the bible doesn't do that.


There was no resurrection up until Jesus returns in the Day of the Lord-the first resurrection is all those dead in Christ from past ages of mankind like David, and Abraham, etc.

Consider these verses in Ezekiel. Ezekiel 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Ezekiel 9:11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which [had] the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

Consider that the 144,000 are Jews only. Now consider all those that arose out of the grave at the resurrection. Matthew 27:51:53 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Would you call this a resurrection, or not?



and they join those who are alive in Christ and instantly transformed into spirit being to meet Jesus up in the air. Then the 1.000 year reign of Christ begins. After the 1,000 period is over all the rest of the dead who ever lived on earth rise up and are eventually in the Great white throne judgment.
Then the New heaven and earth begins-that's the time frame I know.

It doesn't sound like Abraham, Daniel, and Moses are in this group, does it? Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

We don't have to force the Gospel to say something that fits our understanding. Sometimes it is best to wait for the Lord to reveal it.

Raybob
Dec 9th 2012, 03:56 AM
The 144,000 are sealed before any tribulation, nor is it stated that they came out of tribulation as the other group. If it was not the 144,000 that arose on resurrection day, who were they that arose?

You sure can't prove that with scripture. The only time you see all 144K sealed is when they are with Jesus in Rev. 14.

rejoice44
Dec 9th 2012, 04:20 AM
You sure can't prove that with scripture. The only time you see all 144K sealed is when they are with Jesus in Rev. 14.

That is the point. They are the firstfruits that were resurrected with Jesus. I can't prove it, but those saints that were resurrected with Jesus were most likely Jews, since Jesus came for the Jews. There were no Gentiles in the 144,000.

northwye
Dec 9th 2012, 01:52 PM
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The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible

Revelation 7:4

"And I heard the number of them which were sealed…

And therefore could be sure of the exact number, which did not depend upon his sight, and telling them, in which some mistake might have been made, but he heard the number expressed:"

[and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty, [and] four thousand:

"which is a square number arising from twelve, the square root of it, being just twelve times twelve thousand; and may denote their being the true and genuine offspring of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, holding their doctrine, and being built on their foundation; see (Revelation 21:14) ;"

Revelation 7:5

"Of the tribe of Judah [were] sealed twelve thousand…

Judah is mentioned first, because Christ sprung from that tribe, and the pure worship of God was preserved in it; and that itself was preserved a distinct tribe until the coming of Shiloh; its name signifies "praise God", (Genesis 29:35) ; and shows, that it becomes all the sealed ones, all true believers, and every member of the church of God, to praise him for all favours and blessings, temporal, spiritual, and eternal. "

"Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand;

his name signifies a "troop", (Genesis 30:11) , and may denote that there would be a numerous company of saints and faithful witnesses during the time of sealing, and amidst all the troubles and afflictions that would attend the church and people of God, and who in the issue would be conquerors, and more than conquerors, through Christ; see (Genesis 49:19) . "

Revelation 7:6

"Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand…

"Asher", which the Septuagint pronounce "Aser", as here, signifies "blessed", (Genesis 30:13) ; as all the sealed ones are, blessed with all spiritual blessings, with grace here, and glory hereafter. "

John Gill was a Baptist, but also a follower of Calvin. In his interpretation of the 144,000 he emphasizes the sealing mentioned in Revelation 7: 2-3. But - and this is very important - Gill does not deal at all with Revelation 7: 1 and 7: 3, "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree" and "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

This metaphoric language says something is going to be let loose to hurt the earth, the sea and the trees, called the four winds of the earth. The four winds may hurt the literal earth, but this hurting of the earth is not all that is to happen. In Revelation 9: 1-5, the bottomless pit is opened and locust-scorpions came out.

Then in Revelation 9: 13-21 another set of spiritual creatures with tails like serpents are let loose.

Revelation 9 is talking about something that will do spiritual harm, demon spirits and their human minions to torment and kill (metaphorically and maybe physically also) those who claim to belong to Christ.

You can find locust-scorpions and just scorpions and serpents in scripture (Matthew 23: 33, Luke 10: 19 for serpents, and Ezekiel 2: 3-8, and again Luke 10: 19).

John Gill is following the amillennial view of the 144, 000, that they are all just the sealed ones or the elect of the entire church age. In doing so, he denies the 144,000 are a specially sealed remnant who witness for Jesus Christ near the last trumpet, and the end of the tribulation. Something that can spiritually harm those who claim to be Christians is to be released, called the four winds of the earth, and the 144,000 as a last days remnant are to be sealed so this does not hurt them spiritually. They are made immune to deception - and the dialectic.

The 144,000 interpreted to be a remnant whose characteristics are briefly described in Revelation 14: 4-5, are similar to the remnant of Israel described in Zephaniah 3: 12-13. "The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth:" In Revelation 14: 4-5 "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

Remnant, meaning a few faithful to Christ and his doctrines, is used only four times in the New Testament. Paul quotes Isaiah 10:22-23 in Romans 9: 27, using kataleimma, Strong's 2640, a remainder, a few."

In Romans 11: 5 Paul says there is a remnant according to the election of grace, referring to the few from physical Israel who accepted Christ. Here he uses leimma, "a remainder."

Then in Revelation 11: 13 the remnant was afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. Remnant is from loipoy, remaining ones, other, which remain, remnant, residue, rest.

The same Greek word, loipoy, is used in Revelation 12: 17, where the dragon goes to make war with the remnant, a few, those remaining who are faithful to Christ,keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Remnant is used also in Matthew 22: 6 and in Revelation 19: 21, but in these texts remnant does not refer to a small number who remain faithful to Christ and his doctrines.

The Catholic and dispensationalist theologies tend to be broad way, or majority theologies, which would not find attractive the teaching that after the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 and the leavening of the churches of Luke 13: 21 the elect becomes only a few, a remnant. So, the Catholics, followed by many Calvinists because of Calvin's use of Augustine as an authority on doctrine, do not see the 144,000 as an end time remnant.

The dispensationalists,also a broad way theology, would place the arrival of the 144,000 during their tribulation period, supposedly after the dispensationalist church has been raptured off the earth. So, for them too, the 144,000 cannot be a remnant of the "church" which remains faithful to Christ and his doctrines and in that way threatens the broad way majority who have fallen away from the doctrines of Christ into other Gospels. After all, the 144,000 are all male virgin Jews, or 144,000 Jewish Billy Grahams, sometime in the future after the church is in heaven.

Broad way theology refers to Matthew 7: 13, "Enter ye at the straight gate: for wide is the gate, nd broad is the way. that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat."

rejoice44
Dec 9th 2012, 05:17 PM
Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Why doesn’t everyone see this as what happened at Pentecost? The Holy Spirit came down and filled the believers with power to spread the gospel. No one can deny that the everlasting gospel was preached unto the world, from the day of Pentecost right up to the present day.

Consider what you are saying when you say Revelation 14:6 is a future event. You are ignoring the history of the last 2,000 years. You are saying it didn’t work, therefore God is going to try it over again. This makes absolutely no sense.

(The gospel was preached in the whole world and then judgment came, and then those that rejected Christ will get a second chance, because God is going to start all over again with the gospel.) ????

Doesn’t it make more sense to say Revelation 14:6 occurred at Pentecost. The order of things, the 144,000 Jewish Saints being those that arose out of the grave to be with Jesus at the resurrection, and following Jesus wherever Jesus goes. And then the angel presenting the good news that the Saviour has come.

Why try to make the 144,000 fit into some future event that no one fully understands?

God's legacy
Dec 9th 2012, 05:54 PM
Let me ask you when they are sealed. Are they sealed now?



Are you saying sealing only has to do with receiving God's Holy Spirit?



It doesn't say that. The book of Revelation is about the past, the present, and the future. You are tying the two groups together where the bible doesn't do that.



Consider these verses in Ezekiel. Ezekiel 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Ezekiel 9:11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which [had] the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

Consider that the 144,000 are Jews only. Now consider all those that arose out of the grave at the resurrection. Matthew 27:51:53 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Would you call this a resurrection, or not?




It doesn't sound like Abraham, Daniel, and Moses are in this group, does it? Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

We don't have to force the Gospel to say something that fits our understanding. Sometimes it is best to wait for the Lord to reveal it.

The 144,000 are a literal physical descendants of the children of Israel Rev 7:4 - yes

they would be converted servants of Christ probably happening during the Great tribulation period. In Rev 14 they are being described as been redeemed. But no, they are not sealed now since we are talking about a future event that hasn't occurred yet-the tribulation.

In Matt 27, it is a resurrection of sorts but it is not the resurrection to eternal life as in Rev 20 and 1 Cor 15. Lazarus and several believers of Christ were resurrected to underscore the monumental power of God and to highlight the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. They were only resurrected back to a physical life, not an eternal one. It didn't include Moses and David, etc..that promise was still to come .

There are different forms of sealing-baptism for the faithful and in contrast the mark of the beast.

rejoice44
Dec 9th 2012, 07:47 PM
The 144,000 are a literal physical descendants of the children of Israel Rev 7:4 - yes

Yes


they would be converted servants of Christ probably happening during the Great tribulation period.

Where does it say that? Isn't this all speculation?


In Rev 14 they are being described as been redeemed. But no, they are not sealed now since we are talking about a future event that hasn't occurred yet-the tribulation.

Rev. 14:1 says they were redeemed, and with Christ. Why are you talking about sealing, since they are redeemed and with Christ. Again, more speculation when you say "a future event". All this speculation is man made.


In Matt 27, it is a resurrection of sorts but it is not the resurrection to eternal life as in Rev 20 and 1 Cor 15. Lazarus and several believers of Christ were resurrected to underscore the monumental power of God and to highlight the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. They were only resurrected back to a physical life, not an eternal one. It didn't include Moses and David, etc..that promise was still to come .

Matthew 27:52 says many saints arose out of the grave. You are saying they went back to be with their families, and were not resurrected up to heaven. Why didn't the apostles take these saints and use them for a witness of Christ if they remained on the earth?


There are different forms of sealing-baptism for the faithful and in contrast the mark of the beast.

Revelation 14 says the 144,000 had the Father's name written on their foreheads, and this is similar to Ezekiel 9 were we see the man clothed in linen, who had the ink pen in his hand, write on the foreheads of the righteous a mark.

Raybob
Dec 10th 2012, 03:27 AM
Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Why doesn’t everyone see this as what happened at Pentecost? The Holy Spirit came down and filled the believers with power to spread the gospel. No one can deny that the everlasting gospel was preached unto the world, from the day of Pentecost right up to the present day.For one thing, an angel flew in the midst of heaven, it didn't directly come to earth, but was in heaven with the gospel to preach. What was this good news (gospel) that this angel had to preach? If you finish the rest of the sentence in context, you see the good news this angel has is judgment day has come.

Rev 14:6-7 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

rejoice44
Dec 10th 2012, 03:49 AM
For one thing, an angel flew in the midst of heaven, it didn't directly come to earth, but was in heaven with the gospel to preach. What was this good news (gospel) that this angel had to preach? If you finish the rest of the sentence in context, you see the good news this angel has is judgment day has come.

Rev 14:6-7 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Wasn't that John the Baptist's message, "Oh generation of vipers who has warned you to flee the wrath to come?"

The ones that were going to receive the message were on the earth.

No one has answered who those saints were that were resurrected from the grave.

Raybob
Dec 10th 2012, 06:57 AM
..No one has answered who those saints were that were resurrected from the grave.

If you are speaking of these saints, they were the OT saints, but I seriously doubt there were exactly 144K of them.

Mat 27:51-54 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, (53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (54) Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

rejoice44
Dec 10th 2012, 12:47 PM
If you are speaking of these saints, they were the OT saints, but I seriously doubt there were exactly 144K of them.

Mat 27:51-54 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, (53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (54) Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

It says many, that could be any number.

How many children of Israel became eunuchs when they went into captivity in Babylon. We know that Daniel, Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego were charges of the captain of eunuchs.

Jesus said, Matthew 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it].

Isaiah 56:4-5 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant; Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

The 144,000 had a special song that made them special. God said the eunuchs that choose the things that please him will have a special place, above sons and daughters. The 144,000 follow the Lord where ever he goes. That makes them pretty special.

northwye
Dec 10th 2012, 04:47 PM
The 144,000 are the remnant of Israel in the last days who witness to Jesus Christ. This is the Israel of the New Covenant (Galatians 6: 16) and of the New Testament, and also of Paul's revelation given him by the risen Christ (Acts 26: 16-18). It is a remnant out of what Paul calls the Jerusalem which is above, is free and is the mother of us all (Galatians 4: 25-26), The Jews which are Jews inwardly in the spirit and not in the letter (Romans 2: 29), and the children of the promise of Romans 9: 8.

Like Revelation 6: 1-8, on the set of four horses and riders, Revelation 11: 1-14, on the two witnesses, and on Revelation 13, the two beasts, the texts on the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14 do not tell us what this group is, though there are implications from what it does say about them in Revelation 14: 3-5.

For example, Revelation 14: 5 says that in their mouths is found no guile. Guile is deception. If they are not deceptive, it is highly likely that they themselves have not been deceived by false prophets with false doctrines. They have been sealed to protect them from the deception that is rampant in the churches in the last days.

Revelation 14: 4, on their being virgins and not defiled by women is metaphoric. They follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth is partly metaphoric also. It doesn't mean that they are, while in the flesh on earth, running around following Jesus Christ who is also on the earth. It means they follow all of Christ's doctrines. They are not defiled by false religion, and are spiritually pure.

Revelation 7: 1-8 and Revelation 14: 1-5 can be interpreted by other Bible verses that are relevant, though we have to be very careful in doing this. Zephaniah 3: 12-13 on the remnant of Israel is relevant, in part because it also says the remnant of Israel do not speak lies or have a deceitful tongue.

Daniel 11: 33 is relevant, even though this verse can also be applied to the apostles in the First Century. It shows a glimpse into the ministry of a special small group who witness to Christ.

And the four New Testament texts (Romans 9: 27, Romans 11: 5, Revelation 11: 13, Revelation 12: 17) mentioning the remnant are relevant. Romans 11: 5 is about the small remnant of physical Israel who accepted Christ, and Isaiah 10: 20-22, quoted in Romans 9: 27 is also about the remnant of Israel.

In addition, the Holy Spirit in his due time will reveal to his prophets (Amos 3; 7) which texts of the Bible are relevant to a full understanding of the 144,000, and how the 144,000 are to be completely understood.

There is also a contemporary idea which has been voiced that the 144,000 is also a metaphoric number, and that this remnant in the last days make up the entire elect of God, and all who are not in the 144,000 are not in the elect at the time, because they are in false doctrines, a time which is close or now beginning.

divaD
Dec 10th 2012, 04:58 PM
Revelation 14: 4, on their being virgins and not defiled by women is metaphoric. They follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth is partly metaphoric also. It doesn't mean that they are, while in the flesh on earth, running around following Jesus Christ who is also on the earth. It means they follow all of Christ's doctrines. They are not defiled by false religion, and are spiritually pure.





I tend to agree with this, since this is pretty much how I see it as well.

divaD
Dec 10th 2012, 05:07 PM
For example, Revelation 14: 5 says that in their mouths is found no guile. Guile is deception. If they are not deceptive, it is highly likely that they themselves have not been deceived by false prophets with false doctrines. They have been sealed to protect them from the deception that is rampant in the churches in the last days.


Another possibilty is, keeping in mind that I said possibility, maybe they're not sealed to protect them from the deception, but they are sealed because they don't fall for the deception. In the former, no way can they be deceived. In the latter they can be deceived but are not. It kind of goes with the following for example.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


If the elect are not deceived, is it because they are protected from being deceived, or is because they know better, and that they have better spiritual disernment than someone who is deceived?

Raybob
Dec 10th 2012, 07:39 PM
...If the elect are not deceived, is it because they are protected from being deceived, or is because they know better, and that they have better spiritual disernment than someone who is deceived?

Yep. That's what the bible says.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

God's legacy
Dec 12th 2012, 04:02 PM
The resurrected saints(believers) who rose back to a physical life only, did appear to many people in the area and it is only an assumption they returned to their families as well.
The Bible doesn't mention them again.
The Apostles were witnesses to everything and probably didn't need to drag around any evidence on their missions. It's just speculation.yes, but if those resurrected saints were prominent wouldn't their names be mentioned and renowed since they were patriarchs-I think they were just locals.

The 144.000 would have to be converted-Eph 1:13-a convert belongs to God and not himself.

Rev 14:1- implies a divine seal is written on their foreheads symbolically.R

Rev 7:2-4-it says the seal is applied to protect from the 7 plagues-the angels are holding back the elements until the servants of God (the 144,000) are sealed with this protection. I don't think it's from the deception

Would the remnants of Israel include some of the people from the United States, Canada, and Britain?

rejoice44
Dec 13th 2012, 04:18 AM
The resurrected saints(believers) who rose back to a physical life only, did appear to many people in the area and it is only an assumption they returned to their families as well.
The Bible doesn't mention them again.
The Apostles were witnesses to everything and probably didn't need to drag around any evidence on their missions. It's just speculation.yes, but if those resurrected saints were prominent wouldn't their names be mentioned and renowed since they were patriarchs-I think they were just locals.--

It is not logical to suggest that they went back to their families. Can you picture many saints being resurrected today. They might have died two thousand years ago and just where would there family be today. Can you imagine the headlines in the paper. Thousands resurrected and are telling their stories of their life of some 200, 1,500, or 3,000 years ago. That definitely did not happen. They were seen and not heard from because they arose with the Lord. They were the firstfruits along with the Lord, and they have a new song that only they can sing, and they follow the Lord wherever he goes.

They were eunuchs as found in Isaiah 56:4-5 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant;Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. They were those sealed in Ezekiel 9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them [was] clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. Ezekiel 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

There was plenty of eunuchs of the children of Israel. We see these eunuchs throughout the bible. The children that went into captivity, many of them were made eunuchs. Isaiah 39:7 And of thy sons that shall issue from thee, which thou shalt beget, shall they take away; and they shall be eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon. Dan 1:3 And the king spake unto Ashpenaz the master of his eunuchs, that he should bring [certain] of the children of Israel, and of the king's seed, and of the princes; Dan 1:7 Unto whom the prince of the eunuchs gave names: for he gave unto Daniel [the name] of Belteshazzar; and to Hananiah, of Shadrach; and to Mishael, of Meshach; and to Azariah, of Abednego.

2 Kings 9:32 And he lifted up his face to the window, and said, Who [is] on my side? who? And there looked out to him two [or] three eunuchs.

Jesus said, Matthew 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it].

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Realist1981
Dec 13th 2012, 01:13 PM
In the book of Revelations it plainly says that the 144,000 were firstfruits of the Spirit.
First Fruits i.e first converts, Jews, broken down into tribes, it's all there in the book of Revelation.

Realist1981
Dec 13th 2012, 02:05 PM
Revelation 14, KJV

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

How can the firstfruits of the Lamb still be yet future? I don't get it.

rejoice44
Dec 14th 2012, 02:23 PM
The 144,000 are the remnant of Israel in the last days who witness to Jesus Christ. This is the Israel of the New Covenant (Galatians 6: 16) and of the New Testament, and also of Paul's revelation given him by the risen Christ (Acts 26: 16-18). It is a remnant out of what Paul calls the Jerusalem which is above, is free and is the mother of us all (Galatians 4: 25-26), The Jews which are Jews inwardly in the spirit and not in the letter (Romans 2: 29), and the children of the promise of Romans 9: 8.

If you claim these are not Jews outwardly how do you account for the tribal affiliation?


For example, Revelation 14: 5 says that in their mouths is found no guile. Guile is deception. If they are not deceptive, it is highly likely that they themselves have not been deceived by false prophets with false doctrines. They have been sealed to protect them from the deception that is rampant in the churches in the last days.

These are the men in whom no guile is found. Ezekiel 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.


Revelation 14: 4, on their being virgins and not defiled by women is metaphoric. They follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth is partly metaphoric also. It doesn't mean that they are, while in the flesh on earth, running around following Jesus Christ who is also on the earth. It means they follow all of Christ's doctrines. They are not defiled by false religion, and are spiritually pure.

Reason why being virgins is not metaphoric.

Isaiah 56:4-5 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant; Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.


Reason why "They follow the Lamb withersoever he goeth" is not metaphoric either.

Their ministry with Jesus starts at their resurrection. That is why it says they are the firstfruits. They followed Jesus up at the resurrection and are with him now, following Jesus in heaven. The picture Ezekiel gives us of these men has the slaughter starting with the most ancient men, therefore the sealing included the ancient men.

Ezekiel 9:6 Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the "ancient men" which [were] before the house.



In addition, the Holy Spirit in his due time will reveal to his prophets (Amos 3; 7) which texts of the Bible are relevant to a full understanding of the 144,000, and how the 144,000 are to be completely understood.

There is also a contemporary idea which has been voiced that the 144,000 is also a metaphoric number, and that this remnant in the last days make up the entire elect of God, and all who are not in the 144,000 are not in the elect at the time, because they are in false doctrines, a time which is close or now beginning.

Who are the great number in Revelation 7:9 who are out of all nations. Are they not the Jews who are inward Jews and not of the letter?

We sometimes are taught things and then run with them, attempting to make them fit into scripture where they don't belong.

ANewHope
Dec 21st 2012, 09:58 AM
Some of the basic problems in considering the 144,000 are those that add to what the scriptures say in reference to them.

The bible does not say that they will come back to earth to be witnesses of Christ. Rather, they are with Christ, and they never leave Christ.

The bible does not say that the sealing of the 144,000 is future. Rather it is always past tense.

The Old Testament references the sealing in the forehead of Jews in Ezekiel chapter 9.

The New Testament says they are the firstfruits unto God.

Why wouldn’t you expect that perhaps they are those that arose with Christ on the third day?


If the sealing of the 144,000 isn't a future event(near the end time generation), then how does mentioning the seal of God in their forehead(its protection) come relevant in the end times future?

Rev. 9:4 "And it was commanded them(Locusts) that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

ANewHope
Dec 21st 2012, 10:20 AM
Concerning the firstfruits issue...

If you were to claim that the 144,000 were resurrected with jesus, then where did all these saints come from? How come there wasn't any storys of these men(or more men at least) in the Bible during christs lifetime?

Wouldn't this be a great movement to mention that there is a 144,000 saints?

Did Jesus really get his message across to 144,000 people that became saints during his lifetime?

If you add up who the Bible mentions during christs lifetime, it doesn't come close to 144,000 saints.

It seems more likely that these 144,000 would be living during the end times in the future where the earths population is around 7 billion people and where the Bible has been translated into over 2,000 languages so that Christs message can be heard by many.

James 1:18

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

"be a "kind" of firstfruits".

Is this implying theres certain kinds of firstfruits?

Just as different harvests have different kinds of firstfruits?

The harvest mentioned in Revelation in the end times when Jesus returns mentions two gatherings. There is also only two groups you could put in this harvest. First being the 144,000, and second being the great multitude.

rejoice44
Dec 22nd 2012, 03:02 AM
If the sealing of the 144,000 isn't a future event(near the end time generation), then how does mentioning the seal of God in their forehead(its protection) come relevant in the end times future?

Rev. 9:4 "And it was commanded them(Locusts) that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

Really can't answer that. It is apparent today that the Jewish tribal identification is a thing of the past for the most part. In Revelation 6:14 we see heaven departing as a scroll, and then in chapter 7 we see the 144,000 being seald. It becomes apparent that not all events are in a chronological order. If the 144,000 thousand are the firstfruits then it necessitates that they arise first. We know their job well be to go wherever Christ is, and remain with Christ.

rejoice44
Dec 22nd 2012, 03:15 AM
Concerning the firstfruits issue...If you were to claim that the 144,000 were resurrected with jesus, then where did all these saints come from? How come there wasn't any storys of these men(or more men at least) in the Bible during christs lifetime?

Wouldn't this be a great movement to mention that there is a 144,000 saints?

Did Jesus really get his message across to 144,000 people that became saints during his lifetime?

If you add up who the Bible mentions during christs lifetime, it doesn't come close to 144,000 saints.

It seems more likely that these 144,000 would be living during the end times in the future where the earths population is around 7 billion people and where the Bible has been translated into over 2,000 languages so that Christs message can be heard by many.

James 1:18

They are Old Testament Saints. Men like Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. They all new their tribal affiliation. Isaiah 56:4-5 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant; Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

ANewHope
Dec 22nd 2012, 07:21 AM
They are Old Testament Saints. Men like Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. They all new their tribal affiliation. Isaiah 56:4-5 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant; Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

You mention Daniel being one of these people...

"As for you(Daniel), go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

It's clearly stated that Daniel will rise at the end time harvest to receive his reward.

If Daniel, being one of the greatest prophets in the Old Testament, isn't a part of the 144,000, do you really think there's 144,000 greater than he in the old testament times?



Another point to add that relates to my previous...

Matthew 11:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+11:11&version=NIV)
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


Firstly, this tells you that the people who are in the kingdom of heaven(144,000) are yet to be born(In Jesus' days which were obviously after the old testament saints). You can know this since Jesus says in his days that no one born of woman is greater than John. Yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. If the 144,000 were already born before John, then John wouldn't be called greatest in Jesus' days.

Continuing on...

You claim the Old Testament saints are the 144,000.

Jesus says no one born of woman is greater than John. So you would assume John would be fitting to be part of the 144,000 since therefor no old testament saints are greater than he.

Now you read that Jesus says the "least" in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John.

Since the "least" is greater than John, this means he isn't part of the kingdom of heaven. The 144,000 is the kingdom of heaven.

So if John, being greater than all of the old testaments saints, isn't fit to be a part of the kingdom of heaven(the 144,000), then how could the old testament saints be?

I hope you followed my points there. I can try explaining better if necessary.

rejoice44
Dec 22nd 2012, 04:02 PM
You mention Daniel being one of these people...

"As for you(Daniel), go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

It's clearly stated that Daniel will rise at the end time harvest to receive his reward.

If Daniel, being one of the greatest prophets in the Old Testament, isn't a part of the 144,000, do you really think there's 144,000 greater than he in the old testament times?

The end time, or end of days, started when the Jews rejected the Messiah. Would you agree with this statement?




Another point to add that relates to my previous...

Matthew 11:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+11:11&version=NIV)
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


Firstly, this tells you that the people who are in the kingdom of heaven(144,000) are yet to be born(In Jesus' days which were obviously after the old testament saints). You can know this since Jesus says in his days that no one born of woman is greater than John. Yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. If the 144,000 were already born before John, then John wouldn't be called greatest in Jesus' days.

Continuing on...

You claim the Old Testament saints are the 144,000.

Jesus says no one born of woman is greater than John. So you would assume John would be fitting to be part of the 144,000 since therefor no old testament saints are greater than he.

Now you read that Jesus says the "least" in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John.

Since the "least" is greater than John, this means he isn't part of the kingdom of heaven. The 144,000 is the kingdom of heaven.

So if John, being greater than all of the old testaments saints, isn't fit to be a part of the kingdom of heaven(the 144,000), then how could the old testament saints be?

I hope you followed my points there. I can try explaining better if necessary.

We need to examine the contents of that scripture in Matthew 11. Jesus said, of those born of woman John was the greatest. That would include the twelve apostles who where at that time then living, as well as you, or I, who also have been born of women. Jesus describes the kingdom of heaven as existing at that present time, and violence occurring in that kingdom. It is stated in Hebrews that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. If Jesus was a little lower than the angels, than why not John, who also was born of a woman. Than you have to ask yourself, will Jesus be in the kingdom of God, and of course you know the answer to that.

ANewHope
Dec 23rd 2012, 12:00 AM
The end time, or end of days, started when the Jews rejected the Messiah. Would you agree with this statement?

You can say when the Jews rejected the Messiah that it was a high point to mark in the time-line that leads up to the "end of the days"(being the absolute end when Jesus returns.)

Who is to say when the "end times" started? Hasn't the future all been foreknown to God? Hasn't earth and its creatures been destined to this from the beginning? That is, the end of the days.

Besides that, "end times" isn't what is being referred to in Daniel 12:13.

You must first get a grasp on what "end of the days(Dan.12:13 king james version)" means. Saying "end times" or "end days" implies its not yet the end. When it's written and read as "the end of the days" you can see it means exactly that. The end. Not the days building to the end.




We need to examine the contents of that scripture in Matthew 11. Jesus said, of those born of woman John was the greatest. That would include the twelve apostles who where at that time then living, as well as you, or I, who also have been born of women. Jesus describes the kingdom of heaven as existing at that present time, and violence occurring in that kingdom. It is stated in Hebrews that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. If Jesus was a little lower than the angels, than why not John, who also was born of a woman. Than you have to ask yourself, will Jesus be in the kingdom of God, and of course you know the answer to that.

"If Jesus was a little lower than the angels, than why not John, who also was born of a woman."

First off, wasn't Jesus born of God being the son of God? John and Jesus didn't have the same type of birth process as a normal person would. Merry gave a virgin birth. John was born from man and women. This is why John couldn't be in the same class as Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. Yes, they were both technically born from a woman, but there's an obvious big difference there.

This point is irrelevant to the rest I have to say.


The one thing I was thinking about afterwards that you could counter with is that when Jesus mentioned "born of woman" that being "born of god"(born again) is when you're greater than anyone(for instance John) "born of women".

John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

but then there is this...

Is there a difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven?

Just reminder readers what scripture this debate is all stemming from...

"Matthew 11:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+11:11&version=NIV)
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

I copied and pasted this from a website.

"Knowing the doctrinal difference between the terms "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God" is the key to understanding the complete time line of Biblical history past, present, and future, the proper place of the Church, and the prophetic future of Israel. The Bible is about the struggle for a Kingdom; the Kingdom of Heaven, a Kingdom with its Capital City (Jerusalem) on this Earth.

Israel rejected the Lord Jesus Christ as the Messiah when He first came because Israel was looking for a political King who would make Israel the world ruling kingdom spoken of by their prophets. (See Jeremiah 23:5, Psalms 48:2.) They were expecting a military deliverance from the Romans and the rest of the heathen. This is easy to understand as they were expecting carnal deliverance. However, they were missing the point about spiritual deliverance and righteousness, which led them to ask of Jesus:

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
(Luke 17:20-21 KJV)

In that statement, Jesus was declaring a spiritual truth that Israel did not see. But on another occasion, when asked about His Kingdom by Pontius Pilate, He gave a somewhat different answer:

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
(John 18:36 KJV)

In this particular passage the word "now" is not speaking about the spiritual Kingdom of God (within you), but of a literal political Kingdom yet to come on the Earth. You should also take note that the word "now" has been removed from many newer translations (NASB, AMP, NLT, ESV, CEV). The reason is because most of the translators of today's "Bibles" are amillennial in their position on prophecy. In other words, they do not accept the literal return of the Lord Jesus Christ to reign on the Earth for a thousand years as foretold in Revelation.

Although that truth is rejected by a major portion of "Christianity" today, His disciples knew it and were asking when the literal Kingdom would come:

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
(Acts 1:6-8 KJV)

The disciples are clearly asking about a literal Kingdom, and the Lord says it is not for them to know the time when that literal Kingdom (the Kingdom of Heaven) will take place. Until that time the disciples were given power to preach the Kingdom of God; righteousness through faith in the risen Savior who will return to Earth and rule over the whole Earth from Jerusalem.

This is one of the most hated and least understood doctrines of the Bible, yet one of the most important in rightly dividing the truth; the separation of Church doctrine from Tribulation doctrine. Some churches do not want to hear this, because they think that the Church has replaced Israel. Certainly the whole world reviles at the prospect of hated Israel becoming the head of the Kingdoms. There is a hatred of Christians and Jews on a spiritual level that is beyond their own comprehension. Satan hates the Jews, and the world is under Satan's control. Hate and envy are the root reasons the word "now" is removed from John 18:36 in some translations. The world does not want the Lord Jesus Christ to return and rule over them. That is why the Jews killed their King the first time He came. Here is what their King will say about that when He returns:

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.
(Luke 19:27 KJV)

There will be a big attitude difference between the Lord's first coming as the gentle Lamb of God and His Second Coming as the warrior King, the Lion of Judah:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
(Revelation 19:11-13 KJV)

The Lord Jesus Christ came to His own and preached a dualistic message. To the Jews, the heirs of the promised political Kingdom, the Lord preached the Gospel of the "Kingdom of Heaven" - a literal physical Kingdom soon to come:

"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
(Matt. 4:17 KJV)

To the entire world He preached the coming "Kingdom of God" - righteousness and holiness:

"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."
(Mark 1:14 KJV)

Because the Lord used the terms "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God" interchangeably in places in the four Gospels, most Christians think they are one and the same. They will be, but not until the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ when He rules the world for a thousand years on the throne of His father David (His father in the flesh, His human side) at Jerusalem. Again:

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
(John 18:36 KJV)

If you rightly divide the Bible, you will see that Jesus was preaching about two (2) components of the Kingdom. He preached that the political kingdom (Kingdom of Heaven) was coming"






Besides this second part. The first part still stands about my point with Daniel.

rejoice44
Dec 23rd 2012, 12:31 PM
You can say when the Jews rejected the Messiah that it was a high point to mark in the time-line that leads up to the "end of the days"(being the absolute end when Jesus returns.)

Who is to say when the "end times" started? Hasn't the future all been foreknown to God? Hasn't earth and its creatures been destined to this from the beginning? That is, the end of the days.

Besides that, "end times" isn't what is being referred to in Daniel 12:13.

You must first get a grasp on what "end of the days(Dan.12:13 king james version)" means. Saying "end times" or "end days" implies its not yet the end. When it's written and read as "the end of the days" you can see it means exactly that. The end. Not the days building to the end.

Christ was called the firstfruits. 1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. Now we know that many saints arose at the same time. Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Who are those many saints and don't they have to be considered the firstfruits along with Christ?


"If Jesus was a little lower than the angels, than why not John, who also was born of a woman."

First off, wasn't Jesus born of God being the son of God? John and Jesus didn't have the same type of birth process as a normal person would. Merry gave a virgin birth. John was born from man and women. This is why John couldn't be in the same class as Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. Yes, they were both technically born from a woman, but there's an obvious big difference there.

Never meant to infer that there wasn't a difference between Jesus and John. Jesus is both God and man.


Is there a difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven?----"Knowing the doctrinal difference between the terms "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God" is the key to understanding the complete time line of Biblical history past, present, and future, the proper place of the Church, and the prophetic future of Israel. The Bible is about the struggle for a Kingdom; the Kingdom of Heaven, a Kingdom with its Capital City (Jerusalem) on this Earth.


Because the Lord used the terms "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God" interchangeably in places in the four Gospels, most Christians think they are one and the same. They will be, but not until the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ when He rules the world for a thousand years on the throne of His father David (His father in the flesh, His human side) at Jerusalem. Again:

Not in my opinion. Compare the following verses.

Mattthew 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

Matthew 19:12 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

If God used the terms "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" interchangably, how can you divide them. "Kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" are not locations but realms that God rules. The prince and power of the air rules this present world, and will do so until it melts with a fervent heat.


In this particular passage the word "now" is not speaking about the spiritual Kingdom of God (within you), but of a literal political Kingdom yet to come on the Earth. You should also take note that the word "now" has been removed from many newer translations (NASB, AMP, NLT, ESV, CEV). The reason is because most of the translators of today's "Bibles" are amillennial in their position on prophecy. In other words, they do not accept the literal return of the Lord Jesus Christ to reign on the Earth for a thousand years as foretold in Revelation.

I don't know how that 1,000 years fits into the scheme of things, but then there is a lot I don't know. When Christ comes back it will be for the judgment and the harvest. It will be the last trump. The dead in Christ shall rise first, and they that are Christ's shall be called up into the air to be with Christ for evermore. The wheat is harvested and the tares burnt up along with this earth. It will be as in the days of Noah when everyone was destroyed, with the exception of those in the ark.

ANewHope
Dec 23rd 2012, 10:07 PM
Christ was called the firstfruits. 1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. Now we know that many saints arose at the same time. Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Who are those many saints and don't they have to be considered the firstfruits along with Christ?


I can see the frustration. The only way to come to any conclusion is to take all things into account and make sure they connect without error.

I'd first like to remind what I typed earlier about the first-fruits.

Just like different harvests have different first-fruits, so will the 144,000 be different kind of first-fruits at the end-time harvest. They can be called the first-fruits only because we know there is two gatherings in that end time harvest.

Which groups can fit each one of the two gatherings of the end-time harvest when Christ returns? The only two I can gather is the 144,000 and the great multitude.

Is there a third group I'm missing? This is an important point to remember since it all connects with what I have to say below...


The scripture above says "many" arose from their graves. Does "many" seem like an appropriate word to represent 144,000 saints?

Who is the 24 elders? Where did they come from?

We know they had to be humans on earth as the angels in heaven are in the thousands upon thousands. As well as the 24 elders are wearing the crown of life. This is a crown granted to humans.

Doesn't the word "many" seem more reasonable to represent 24 saints instead of 144,000? Someone rising from the grave and appearing unto people is a miracle never seen before. So seeing 24 do this would be why it seem like that's "many". If a 144,000 did this miracle then it seems it would be a bigger deal then what was written.

If you put the 144,000 as the group that rose with Jesus. Then you're left wondering who the 24 elders are? How are they in heaven before the 144,000?

This creates a contradiction since you say the 144,000 rose with Jesus. How then can the 24 elders be in heaven with jesus before the 144,000?

Rev 4:11 "Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say: "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."

You can see the 24 elders are in heaven worshiping before the lord. There is mention of the 4 creatures and angels in this scenario, but never the 144,000.

When then go forward to Rev. 14...

"1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless."

This scripture is the only one that gives a clear understand when the 144,000 appear and where they are.

You can read that they sing a new song before the 24 elders ect.. This implies that the 24 elders were there before the 144,000 just as I pointed out with the scripture above.

Like I started out saying, you have to look at the big picture and make sure all the dots connect. You don't want to be left with contradictions that confuse you. The word of God is not meant to confuse, but people can easily get confused by it. I know I have and still do. Only when you take all things into account, can you erase the confusion.


One point I'd like to add that I mentioned earlier that you said you couldn't really answer...

"If the sealing of the 144,000 isn't a future event(near the end time generation), then how does mentioning the seal of God in their forehead(its protection) come relevant in the end times future?

Rev. 9:4 "And it was commanded them(Locusts) that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."


Taking all this into account, I can't find it possible for me to believe the 144,000 was a past event.

ANewHope
Dec 23rd 2012, 10:36 PM
Not in my opinion. Compare the following verses.

Mattthew 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

Matthew 19:12 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

If God used the terms "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" interchangably, how can you divide them. "Kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" are not locations but realms that God rules. The prince and power of the air rules this present world, and will do so until it melts with a fervent heat.


You must of missed something in the article I posted. You ask how can you devide the kingdom and heaven and the kingdom of god? Well through scripture, Jesus did just that.


Here is some scripture that devides the two.

""Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
(John 18:36 KJV)"

Heaven is not of this world. Jesus states there is a kingdom not of this world. So you would assume he is speaking of the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus clearly states the kingdom of god is within you, which would make it of this world.

""And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
(Luke 17:20-21 KJV)"

Another scripture that divides the two...

""When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
(Acts 1:6-8 KJV)"

Jesus couldn't be talking about the kingdom of god here as it is something within you and was present at that time.



Once again...

"Because the Lord used the terms "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God" interchangeably in places in the four Gospels, most Christians think they are one and the same. They will be, but not until the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ when He rules the world for a thousand years on the throne of His father David (His father in the flesh, His human side) at Jerusalem. Again:

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
(John 18:36 KJV)

If you rightly divide the Bible, you will see that Jesus was preaching about two (2) components of the Kingdom. He preached that the political kingdom (Kingdom of Heaven) was coming"


Here's scripture that represents the Kingdom of heaven...

Rev. 21:10

"One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb. And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God..."

rejoice44
Dec 23rd 2012, 11:35 PM
You must of missed something in the article I posted. You ask how can you devide the kingdom and heaven and the kingdom of god? Well through scripture, Jesus did just that.


Here is some scripture that devides the two.

""Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
(John 18:36 KJV)"

Heaven is not of this world. Jesus states there is a kingdom not of this world. So you would assume he is speaking of the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus clearly states the kingdom of god is within you, which would make it of this world.

""And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
(Luke 17:20-21 KJV)"

Another scripture that divides the two...

""When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
(Acts 1:6-8 KJV)"

Jesus couldn't be talking about the kingdom of god here as it is something within you and was present at that time.



Once again...

"Because the Lord used the terms "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God" interchangeably in places in the four Gospels, most Christians think they are one and the same. They will be, but not until the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ when He rules the world for a thousand years on the throne of His father David (His father in the flesh, His human side) at Jerusalem. Again:

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
(John 18:36 KJV)

If you rightly divide the Bible, you will see that Jesus was preaching about two (2) components of the Kingdom. He preached that the political kingdom (Kingdom of Heaven) was coming"


Here's scripture that represents the Kingdom of heaven...

Rev. 21:10

"One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb. And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God..."

We will have to agree to disagree on the kingdoms. Let me ask you, will the thousand year reign take place on the new heaven and earth?

ANewHope
Dec 24th 2012, 06:35 AM
One more point to add to the kingdom of god/heaven discussion.

"I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least IN the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

Now, Jesus says the kingdom of god is IN you. The scripture above says the opposite. Jesus says, "..he who is least IN the kingdom of heaven...". So he's speaking about people being IN a kingdom instead of a kingdom that's IN them.

Another point to add I found from a website...

"Matthew 8:11-12I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

•• The “feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven” is clearly a yet-future sense of the kingdom. It suggests to me an experience after Jesus’ Second Coming."


As for your question... If the answer doesn't contradict anything I've already said, I'm going to avoid answering it.

Raybob
Dec 24th 2012, 08:00 AM
One more point to add to the kingdom of god/heaven discussion.

"I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least IN the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

Now, Jesus says the kingdom of god is IN you. The scripture above says the opposite. Jesus says, "..he who is least IN the kingdom of heaven...". So he's speaking about people being IN a kingdom instead of a kingdom that's IN them.Same difference. When someone reigns with Jesus in the Kingdom, over Satan, they do it because of the spirit of God within themselves.

Joh 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.




Another point to add I found from a website...

"Matthew 8:11-12I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

•• The “feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven” is clearly a yet-future[SIZE=-1][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Times New Roman][FONT=Verdana] sense of the kingdom. It suggests to me an experience after Jesus’ Second Coming."
THe second coming brings the fullness of the Kingdom in completed state, but our access to the Kingdom began much earlier, in the spirit world, when Jesus took the throne of David (in the spirit world).

Act 2:29-31 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. (30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; (31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

ANewHope
Dec 24th 2012, 08:15 AM
Same difference. When someone reigns with Jesus in the Kingdom, over Satan, they do it because of the spirit of God within themselves.

Joh 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.




THe second coming brings the fullness of the Kingdom in completed state, but our access to the Kingdom began much earlier, in the spirit world, when Jesus took the throne of David (in the spirit world).

Act 2:29-31 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. (30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; (31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


Same difference. When someone reigns with Jesus in the Kingdom, over Satan, they do it because of the spirit of God within themselves.

Joh 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.




THe second coming brings the fullness of the Kingdom in completed state, but our access to the Kingdom began much earlier, in the spirit world, when Jesus took the throne of David (in the spirit world).

Act 2:29-31 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. (30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; (31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

I agree our access to the kingdom of God(if you're born again) began much earlier. Our access to the kingdom to heaven is different and a future event.

"Many will say to me on that DAY, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

"That is, in the last DAY, the day of judgment; the time when the principles of all pretenders to prophecy and piety shall be tried."

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

You can clearly see entering the kingdom of heaven is a future event on that "day".



If you want to continue on this discussion, I think it'd be best if a new thread was made. I just don't want to dilute this thread from its original subject.