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Realist1981
Dec 17th 2012, 07:27 PM
Who hasn't asked for forgiveness?

Watchman
Dec 17th 2012, 07:30 PM
Forgiveness is for you...not for the other person. Do you wish to hold on to a wrong someone has committed against you? If so, then unforgiveness is the perfect path...and it leads to bitterness, resentment, and anger (which is likened by Jesus to murder.) Your call. You want to forgive them? Gitterdun!

blessings,

Watchman :)

Fenris
Dec 17th 2012, 07:34 PM
Are you required to forgive someone who hasn't asked? No. In fact, there are times when such forgiveness is inappropriate.

Ta-An
Dec 17th 2012, 07:40 PM
Forgiveness is for you...not for the other person. Do you wish to hold on to a wrong someone has committed against you? If so, then unforgiveness is the perfect path...and it leads to bitterness, resentment, and anger (which is likened by Jesus to murder.) Your call. You want to forgive them? Gitterdun!

blessings,

Watchman :) Indeed so, forgiveness sets you free :pp

Vhayes
Dec 17th 2012, 07:46 PM
Forgiveness is for you...not for the other person. Do you wish to hold on to a wrong someone has committed against you? If so, then unforgiveness is the perfect path...and it leads to bitterness, resentment, and anger (which is likened by Jesus to murder.) Your call. You want to forgive them? Gitterdun!

blessings,

Watchman :)
Ah, yep!!!

Great post, Watchman!

Old man
Dec 17th 2012, 07:48 PM
No. In certain extreme cases it can even bring the Lord's judgment (i.e. correction) toward yourself.ter

But as mentioned earlier as a matter of your own heart yes.

BroRog
Dec 17th 2012, 07:50 PM
Are you required to forgive someone who hasn't asked? No. In fact, there are times when such forgiveness is inappropriate.Would you draw a distinction between forgiveness and reconciliation?

Fenris
Dec 17th 2012, 07:54 PM
Would you draw a distinction between forgiveness and reconciliation?

You can't reconcile with someone who doesn't want to.

If someone is your enemy and is actively trying to harm/injure/kill you, you have no obligation to forgive them for their past attempts. Worse, forgiving them may enable them to do more damage.

I thought those people running around "forgiving" OBL after 9/11 were behaving in a most inappropriate manner.

OTOH, if someone cuts you off in traffic, yeah, let it go.

It's important to draw distinctions between the two situations.

RabbiKnife
Dec 17th 2012, 07:56 PM
Forgiveness is simply giving up my right to get even. It in no way justified or ratifies the action that created the wrong. It also has nothing to do with whether I thereafter work for justice.

BroRog
Dec 17th 2012, 08:12 PM
You can't reconcile with someone who doesn't want to.

If someone is your enemy and is actively trying to harm/injure/kill you, you have no obligation to forgive them for their past attempts. Worse, forgiving them may enable them to do more damage.

I thought those people running around "forgiving" OBL after 9/11 were behaving in a most inappropriate manner.

OTOH, if someone cuts you off in traffic, yeah, let it go.

It's important to draw distinctions between the two situations.Yes, I fully agree. Our forgiveness, if given, should not be interpreted as approval. I think a willingness to forgive, if not yet given, leaves the door open for peace. I think Israel should be commended for that attitude. Sadly, I think she will eventually be forced by her enemies to close that door. It isn't easy to know when, whether we are talking about interpersonal relationships or international ones.

BroRog
Dec 17th 2012, 08:13 PM
Forgiveness is simply giving up my right to get even. It in no way justified or ratifies the action that created the wrong. It also has nothing to do with whether I thereafter work for justice.Totally agree and this is a good point to remember. Thanks.

Nick
Dec 17th 2012, 08:25 PM
How about this...can you forgive someone but still hope he is burning in hell? I've forgiven my father (I think) but I also seek comfort knowing he is paying an eternal price for his wrongs (there were many of them).

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 17th 2012, 08:30 PM
Who hasn't asked for forgiveness?


Jesus discussed this issue with His Disciples...

3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
{Luke 17 KJV}

BroRog
Dec 17th 2012, 08:31 PM
How about this...can you forgive someone but still hope he is burning in hell? I've forgiven my father (I think) but I also seek comfort knowing he is paying an eternal price for his wrongs (there were many of them).Interesting question. If Rabbiknife is right, and I think he is, forgiveness is giving up your right to seek retribution or revenge. Would it have been okay with you if God had done the same thing? That is, what if God also forgave your father?

I'm not going to judge either way. I'm just askin'

RabbiKnife
Dec 17th 2012, 08:32 PM
How about this...can you forgive someone but still hope he is burning in hell? I've forgiven my father (I think) but I also seek comfort knowing he is paying an eternal price for his wrongs (there were many of them).

No, you can't.

Forgiveness is giving up your right for vengance. Vengance is God's, not ours.

As long as we "hope" or "seek comfort" in the eternal torment of someone else, we are saying to God "You're justice is not enough for me. I demand my pound of flesh."

It is, purely and simply, rebellion.

John146
Dec 17th 2012, 08:46 PM
How about this...can you forgive someone but still hope he is burning in hell?Absolutely not.


I've forgiven my father (I think) but I also seek comfort knowing he is paying an eternal price for his wrongs (there were many of them).It's clear that you haven't actually forgiven him and I'm absolutely appalled at your attitude towards him. What made you holier than thou? Have you never done anything wrong? Are you his Judge or is God his Judge? How do you know where he is now? You don't. Led God be the Judge. That's not your job. I have to question whether you are even saved yourself if this is the kind of attitude you have towards your own father. Did Jesus not teach us to love our enemies? Apparently, your father was your enemy but it's also apparent that you didn't love him. You need to repent of that and start loving your enemies as Jesus commands us all to do.

Matt 7:7 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

Luke 6:27 “But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you.

Realist1981
Dec 17th 2012, 08:47 PM
Would you draw a distinction between forgiveness and reconciliation?

No, they are synonymous terms

RabbiKnife
Dec 17th 2012, 08:48 PM
I don't believe they are synonymous at all.

Forgiveness is giving up the right to get even.

Reconciliation is the restoration of relationship

Realist1981
Dec 17th 2012, 08:49 PM
How about this...can you forgive someone but still hope he is burning in hell? I've forgiven my father (I think) but I also seek comfort knowing he is paying an eternal price for his wrongs (there were many of them).

I don't believe that's true forgiveness.

Nick
Dec 17th 2012, 08:49 PM
Interesting question. If Rabbiknife is right, and I think he is, forgiveness is giving up your right to seek retribution or revenge. Would it have been okay with you if God had done the same thing? That is, what if God also forgave your father?

I'm not going to judge either way. I'm just askin'

I am giving up my right to seek retribution, but I'm also hopeful vengeance was carried out by God. God does tell us to forgive and leave the revenge part to Him (I'm paraphrasing). I'm just hopeful my dad got exactly what he deserved.

BroRog
Dec 17th 2012, 08:50 PM
No, they are synonymous termsDoes the Bible use them synonymously? Doesn't God need to reconcile with man before he can forgive man?

RabbiKnife
Dec 17th 2012, 08:51 PM
I am giving up my right to seek retribution, but I'm also hopeful vengeance was carried out by God. God does tell us to forgive and leave the revenge part to Him (I'm paraphrasing). I'm just hopeful my dad got exactly what he deserved.

What you may be missing is that you deserve exactly what you hope your father got.

Nick
Dec 17th 2012, 08:54 PM
Absolutely not.

It's clear that you haven't actually forgiven him and I'm absolutely appalled at your attitude towards him. What made you holier than thou? Have you never done anything wrong? Are you his Judge or is God his Judge? How do you know where he is now? You don't. Led God be the Judge. That's not your job. I have to question whether you are even saved yourself if this is the kind of attitude you have towards your own father. Did Jesus not teach us to love our enemies? Apparently, your father was your enemy but it's also apparent that you didn't love him. You need to repent of that and start loving your enemies as Jesus commands us all to do.

Who's judging now? My father was a monster that wreaked havoc on everyone's life. Don't get sanctimonious with me unless you've been in my shoes.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 17th 2012, 08:55 PM
Forgiveness is for you...not for the other person. Do you wish to hold on to a wrong someone has committed against you?
If so, then unforgiveness is the perfect path...and it leads to bitterness, resentment, and anger (which is likened by Jesus to murder.)
Your call. You want to forgive them? Gitterdun!

blessings,

Watchman :)


while I AGREE :yes: that it's not good for us to hold onto bitterness, resentment or anger...
I CANNOT AGREE :no: with placing ALL the burden/responsibility upon the person who was wronged :confused either...

:bible: especially since Christ indicated that BOTH "brothers" had a responsibility to bring about reconciliation...
the one who initially DID WRONG; should repent (actually feel sorry for what they did)...
& THEN; the other "brother" should forgive him (give up resentment)...

3 Pay attention and always be on your guard [looking out for one another]. If your brother sins (misses the mark), solemnly tell him so and reprove him, and if he repents (feels sorry for having sinned), forgive him.
4 And even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and turns to you seven times and says, I repent [I am sorry], you must forgive him (give up resentment and consider the offense as recalled and annulled).
{Luke 17 AMP}

Realist1981
Dec 17th 2012, 08:55 PM
I don't believe they are synonymous at all.

Forgiveness is giving up the right to get even.

Reconciliation is the restoration of relationship


Ok, you have a great point they are different.

However, if a random stranger causes you harm, either directly or indirectly, there is nothing to reconcile because there wasn't a relationship with that person to begin with because they are a stranger.

Old man
Dec 17th 2012, 08:56 PM
No, you can't.

Agreed!


Forgiveness is giving up your right for vengance.
Not so sure I agree here (have to put a little more thought to it). I think it goes beyond just giving up our right for vengance into the area of not holding it against them either. Those under the throne in Rev 6 cried out for God to avenge their blood would that be unforgiveness? One of the parables Jesus taught used money as the subject instead of simply delaying the collection of the money owed or simply not throw him in prison (i.e. giving up our right for venegance) the king went farther and didn't hold the entire debt against the servant. We can give up our right for vengence but if you still seek justice wouldn't that still be getting a little of yours back i.e extracting venegance? I know there is a line here I'm really not sure where to draw that line though. :hmm:

Nick
Dec 17th 2012, 08:57 PM
What you may be missing is that you deserve exactly what you hope your father got.

Thank God for mercy. He didn't believe in God. In fact, he thought he was God. I don't see much mercy in his case. Hell, fire and brimstone is his eternal resting place which is fine with me.

RabbiKnife
Dec 17th 2012, 08:57 PM
THIS POST IN RESPONSE TO OLD MAN'S #26

Understood.

No, I don't think it crosses the line, when one is recognizing and affirming that justice/vengance is God's responsibility and venue, not ours.

John146
Dec 17th 2012, 08:59 PM
Who's judging now?That would still be you.


My father was a monster that wreaked havoc on everyone's life. Don't get sanctimonious with me unless you've been in my shoes.I am telling you what Jesus taught. He taught not to judge people as you are judging your father and He taught us to love our enemies which is another thing you are not doing. Why are you not following Christ's teachings? And I may not have been in your shoes, but my wife has and she does not look at her father the way you look at yours because she wants to obey Jesus.

Realist1981
Dec 17th 2012, 09:00 PM
Does the Bible use them synonymously? Doesn't God need to reconcile with man before he can forgive man?


Don't we have to confess and repent of our sins and ask God to forgive us?

We, the transgressors, ask Yahweh, for forgiveness. Is our sins forgiven before we even ask?

You pose a great question though. I'd have to research that because I've never heard of God reconciling with man.

BroRog
Dec 17th 2012, 09:06 PM
Don't we have to confess and repent of our sins and ask God to forgive us?

We, the transgressors, ask Yahweh, for forgiveness. Is our sins forgiven before we even ask?

You pose a great question though. I'd have to research that because I've never heard of God reconciling with man.Yes, God forgives us if we ask. The Bible says that the cross gave us reconciliation with God, which as I understand it from the book of Hebrews, gave us access through Jesus to God. In other words, God is willing to forgive us when we ask, but we can't ask until we gain access to him. The good news is that Jesus Christ gained access to God and will ask God on our behalf to forgive us. And God will forgive us if we repent, because of what Christ did.

Vhayes
Dec 17th 2012, 09:10 PM
Yes, God forgives us if we ask. The Bible says that the cross gave us reconciliation with God, which as I understand it from the book of Hebrews, gave us access through Jesus to God. In other words, God is willing to forgive us when we ask, but we can't ask until we gain access to him. The good news is that Jesus Christ gained access to God and will ask God on our behalf to forgive us. And God will forgive us if we repent, because of what Christ did.

I would say it's the other way around. Through the atoning blood of Christ, all men are forgiven. The reconciliation comes with the asking for a relationship.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 17th 2012, 09:10 PM
I am giving up my right to seek retribution, but I'm also hopeful vengeance was carried out by God.
God does tell us to forgive and leave the revenge part to Him (I'm paraphrasing).
I'm just hopeful my dad got exactly what he deserved.


Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
{Romans 12:19 NKJV}

7 Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.
8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.
{Psalm 37 KJV}

Nick
Dec 17th 2012, 09:13 PM
That would still be you.

I am telling you what Jesus taught. He taught not to judge people as you are judging your father and He taught us to love our enemies which is another thing you are not doing. Why are you not following Christ's teachings? And I may not have been in your shoes, but my wife has and she does not look at her father the way you look at yours because she wants to obey Jesus.

Just shut up. Really. I'm done discussing this. You don't know anything about me. Nothing.

John146
Dec 17th 2012, 09:18 PM
Just shut up. Really. I'm done discussing this. You don't know anything about me. Nothing.I don't need to know anything about you in order to know that you are not excepted when it comes to who is required to obey Christ. All I'm telling you is what Jesus taught about how we are to treat our enemies and what kind of attitude we should have towards our enemies. When it comes to your father you are not doing what Jesus taught. Why not? Why would you be offended by being shown what Jesus taught regarding this so that you can correct your behavior and obey Him?

Fenris
Dec 17th 2012, 09:19 PM
ndibari is being subjected to some harsh words.

RabbiKnife
Dec 17th 2012, 09:21 PM
Ndibari asked about basic Christian philosophy and theology, and doesn't like the answer.

Realist1981
Dec 17th 2012, 09:24 PM
I am giving up my right to seek retribution, but I'm also hopeful vengeance was carried out by God. God does tell us to forgive and leave the revenge part to Him (I'm paraphrasing). I'm just hopeful my dad got exactly what he deserved.

Ok I see what you were saying before.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 17th 2012, 09:25 PM
I am telling you what Jesus taught. He taught not to judge people as you are judging your father and He taught us to love our enemies which is another thing you are not doing. Why are you not following Christ's teachings?



pardon me please?... but WHY ARE YOU not following ALL that Jesus taught?...
what about Luke 17?... WHY ARE YOU insinuating ALL the burden to ndibari? :confused the one who was offended & abused by the father :confused
ESPECIALLY since Jesus taught; that the father should have repented & felt sorry for what he did

Fenris
Dec 17th 2012, 09:27 PM
Ndibari asked about basic Christian philosophy and theology, and doesn't like the answer.

The answer could have been phrased better by some people here. He's obviously dealing with a considerable amount of pain.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 17th 2012, 09:28 PM
ndibari is being subjected to some harsh words.


& I do NOT believe this is what Christ would have done :cry:

Vhayes
Dec 17th 2012, 09:28 PM
I cannot control another persons actions, only my reaction.

What they do has no bearing on whether or not I forgive them. I don't have to associate with them ever again but forgiveness from my side is not optional.

John146
Dec 17th 2012, 09:32 PM
pardon me please?... but WHY ARE YOU not following ALL that Jesus taught?...Where are you getting the idea that I'm not?


what about Luke 17?... WHY ARE YOU insinuating ALL the burden to ndibari?Where did I say that?


:confused the one who was offended & abused by the father :confused
ESPECIALLY since Jesus taught; that the father should have repented & felt sorry for what he didSo, are you saying it's okay for him to judge his father and hate his father? Is there something wrong with me telling someone what Jesus taught, which is to not judge others and to love our enemies?

John146
Dec 17th 2012, 09:34 PM
The answer could have been phrased better by some people here. He's obviously dealing with a considerable amount of pain.That's your opinion but you are not a Christian. As a Christian I have every right to rebuke another Christian when they are in the wrong. Just because that's a concept you don't understand doesn't mean there is anything wrong with what I'm telling him. His attitude towards his father is completely the opposite of what Jesus taught our attitudes towards our enemies should be.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 17th 2012, 09:35 PM
When it comes to your father you are not doing what Jesus taught.


:hmm: when it comes to THE FATHER?... was HE doing what Jesus taught?... did HE repent?... was HE sorry for his sins?

Fenris
Dec 17th 2012, 09:36 PM
His attitude towards his father is completely the opposite of what Jesus taught our attitudes towards our enemies should be.
What about your attitude to him?

John146
Dec 17th 2012, 09:39 PM
:hmm: when it comes to THE FATHER?... was HE doing what Jesus taught?... did HE repent?... was HE sorry for his sins? No, and I didn't say otherwise. I'm talking about his attitude towards his father and warning him that he needs to change it. Do you understand that if he is judged with the same measure that he is judging his father that it won't work out well for him? It's not our job to judge and to declare who deserves what. That is God's job alone.

John146
Dec 17th 2012, 09:40 PM
What about your attitude to him?It's fine. I'm merely repeating what Jesus taught. It seems that some here don't like what Jesus taught but I make no apologies for it.

Vhayes
Dec 17th 2012, 09:41 PM
:hmm: when it comes to THE FATHER?... was HE doing what Jesus taught?... did HE repent?... was HE sorry for his sins?

By his own admission, his father was not a Christian. Jesus meant nothing to him, so I don't understand what your point is.

Fenris
Dec 17th 2012, 09:41 PM
It's fine. I'm merely repeating what Jesus taught.
That's great. When are you going to forgive ndibari?

John146
Dec 17th 2012, 09:49 PM
That's great. When are you going to forgive ndibari?Who said I haven't? It has nothing to do with that, it has to do with him judging his father, which goes against what Jesus taught. And it has to do with him not loving his enemies, which again goes against what Jesus taught. Am I supposed to just stand by and let a fellow Christian be in serious error like that without showing him the truth that Jesus taught about this? No. But I don't expect you to have any understanding of this issue because you're not a Christian.

Fenris
Dec 17th 2012, 09:50 PM
Who said I haven't? It has nothing to do with that, it has to do with him judging his father, which goes against what Jesus taught.
So you can "forgive" him and then pass judgement on him and publicly berate him? Nice.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 17th 2012, 09:51 PM
That's your opinion but you are not a Christian. As a Christian I have every right to rebuke another Christian when they are in the wrong. Just because that's a concept you don't understand doesn't mean there is anything wrong with what I'm telling him.
His attitude towards his father is completely the opposite of what Jesus taught our attitudes towards our enemies should be.


:hmm: do you understand the concept of what Paul meant? (quoting Proverbs 25:21-22) regarding our attitude towards our enemies?...

Therefore“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”
{Romans 12:20 NKJV}

so this is actually a Judeo/Christian concept

John146
Dec 17th 2012, 09:55 PM
So you can "forgive" him and then pass judgement on him and publicly berate him? Nice.How am I passing judgment on him? Telling him what Jesus taught about what his attitude towards his father should be is passing judgment on him? Hardly. I'm sorry that some people take offense to what Jesus taught.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 17th 2012, 09:59 PM
http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Proverbs 3:5-7 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2928624#post2928624)
:hmm: when it comes to THE FATHER?... was HE doing what Jesus taught?... did HE repent?... was HE sorry for his sins?




By his own admission, his father was not a Christian. Jesus meant nothing to him, so I don't understand what your point is.


the point is = (in addition to his sins) that father WILL regret that "Jesus meant nothing to him" on Judgment Day

John146
Dec 17th 2012, 09:59 PM
:hmm: do you understand the concept of what Paul meant? (quoting Proverbs 25:21-22) regarding our attitude towards our enemies?...

Therefore“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”
{Romans 12:20 NKJV}

so this is actually a Judeo/Christian concept
Yes, I understand what Paul meant. Do you? What is the point that you're trying to make? All I'm saying is that it's not his place to judge his father and it's wrong for him to not love his father, who he obviously sees as his enemy.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 17th 2012, 10:15 PM
http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Fenris http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2928634#post2928634)
So you can "forgive" him and then pass judgement on him and publicly berate him? Nice.





How am I passing judgment on him? Telling him what Jesus taught about what his attitude towards his father should be is passing judgment on him? Hardly. I'm sorry that some people take offense to what Jesus taught.


IF ONLY you'd realize that it's your rebukes that are so offensive :pray:
BECAUSE they're so unbalanced from the WHOLE Truth of what Christ taught
like have you demonstrated ANY real sympathy for ndibari's pain? HARDLY

markedward
Dec 17th 2012, 10:16 PM
As a Christian I have every right to rebuke another Christian when they are in the wrong.

...

I'm merely repeating what Jesus taught. It seems that some here don't like what Jesus taught but I make no apologies for it.
No you don't... you don't have 'every right'. You only have this responsibility (not the same thing as a 'right') if you have been personally wronged, or if you have other witnesses to stand in agreement with you. You also have the responsibility to speak in truth with love, and love requires with patience, kindness, and empathy. 'Merely repeating what Jesus taught' is exactly the problem. 'Merely repeating' the truth, is not the same thing as reaching out with love to a brother in error. I don't see a loving brother, I see a bully. Repeat the truth all you want, but don't expect it to amount to anything if you can't speak in love.

John146
Dec 17th 2012, 10:28 PM
http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Fenris http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2928634#post2928634)
So you can "forgive" him and then pass judgement on him and publicly berate him? Nice.





IF ONLY you'd realize that it's your rebukes that are so offensive :pray:
BECAUSE they're so unbalanced from the WHOLE Truth of what Christ taught
like have you demonstrated ANY real sympathy for ndibari's pain? HARDLYI understand what you're saying and I don't intend to come across as overly harsh, but this is a very serious situation. Maybe I'm going overboard with trying to make it clear how serious it is, I don't know. But I can't just sit back and allow someone to have an attitude like that which could lead them to the same fate that they are declaring for someone else.

What are you doing to try to correct his error? Anything? Do you understand that Jesus wasn't kidding when He said that if someone judges others then they will be judged with the measure they use to judge? If a person judges someone else and declares them to be getting what they deserve, that means they are saying they are that person's Judge and they should be judged by the same standards as they are using to judge them. If ndibari is judged by the same standard that he is using to judge his father then it will not work out well for him. So, if you didn't like my approach I have to wonder what you are doing to try to keep him from such a serious error? Hopefully something.

John146
Dec 17th 2012, 10:33 PM
No you don't... you don't have 'every right'. You only have this responsibility (not the same thing as a 'right') if you have been personally wronged, or if you have other witnesses to stand in agreement with you. You also have the responsibility to speak in truth with love, and love requires with patience, kindness, and empathy. 'Merely repeating what Jesus taught' is exactly the problem. 'Merely repeating' the truth, is not the same thing as reaching out with love to a brother in error. I don't see a loving brother, I see a bully. Repeat the truth all you want, but don't expect it to amount to anything if you can't speak in love.Fair enough. I'm sorry you see it that way. That wasn't my intention. My intention was to get across the seriousness of the situation, not to be a bully. I don't think a lot of people understand the serious consequences that will result if we judge others and hate others rather than loving them as Jesus commanded.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 17th 2012, 11:02 PM
I understand what you're saying and I don't intend to come across as overly harsh, but this is a very serious situation. Maybe I'm going overboard with trying to make it clear how serious it is, I don't know. But I can't just sit back and allow someone to have an attitude like that which could lead them to the same fate that they are declaring for someone else.

What are you doing to try to correct his error? Anything? Do you understand that Jesus wasn't kidding when He said that if someone judges others then they will be judged with the measure they use to judge? If a person judges someone else and declares them to be getting what they deserve, that means they are saying they are that person's Judge and they should be judged by the same standards as they are using to judge them. If ndibari is judged by the same standard that he is using to judge his father then it will not work out well for him. So, if you didn't like my approach I have to wonder what you are doing to try to keep him from such a serious error? Hopefully something.

I understand what you're saying too; about passing judgment...
but apparently; the abuse that ndibari endured was also a serious situation, you know?...
seems to me that he was seeking justice & vindication for the wrongs he's been subjected to...
especially since he recalled the excerpt about; "Vengeance is Mine, saith The Lord, I will repay"...

besides; Christ Himself was all too familiar with enduring cruelty in this world, so He can totally relate to how it feels...
& His Teaching (about repentance BEFORE forgiveness) is of paramount importance, in balancing the issues ndibari is struggling with...
so he should not be made to feel alienated from God, you know?

Realist1981
Dec 17th 2012, 11:40 PM
How am I passing judgment on him? Telling him what Jesus taught about what his attitude towards his father should be is passing judgment on him? Hardly. I'm sorry that some people take offense to what Jesus taught.

Dude the tone of your post was aggressive. It's a sensitive subject and you went on attack mode on him.
This thread wasnt meant for personal attacks

Realist1981
Dec 18th 2012, 12:11 AM
Is the definition of forgiveness the issue here?
If you say forgiveness is simply not seeking revenge then I would say of coarse you should forgive before being asked to forgive.
Or in Post #42 you forgive but you don't want to have anything to do with them is that right?

Nick
Dec 18th 2012, 12:14 AM
I want to apologize for losing my cool. For whatever reason, this discussion stirred up some raw emotion. My father shot himself a year ago. Every time I think I'm over it and have moved past the anger something knocks me off course. Dealing with his graphic suicide (he blew brains out right underneath a picture of me and my sister), and the aftermath of what he did prior to killing himself took a while to get over. Obviously I'm not completely over it. My sister and I are still dealing with the wreckage he left behind. He was a very evil man that did unspeakable, detestable acts that would make any sane person cringe. I've talked with pastors, shrinks, psychologists, etc. about the details and they were all pretty much speechless.

BroRog
Dec 18th 2012, 12:20 AM
I want to apologize for losing my cool. For whatever reason, this discussion stirred up some raw emotion. My father shot himself a year ago. Every time I think I'm over it and have moved past the anger something knocks me off course. Dealing with his graphic suicide (he blew brains out right underneath a picture of me and my sister), and the aftermath of what he did prior to killing himself took a while to get over. Obviously I'm not completely over it. My sister and I are still dealing with the wreckage he left behind. He was a very evil man that did unspeakable, detestable acts that would make any sane person cringe. I've talked with pastors, shrinks, psychologists, etc. about the details and they were all pretty much speechless.It's totally understandable. Take your time to grieve and heal.

Father, please bless ndibari and his sister and give them peace. Help them to be the kinds of people you want them to be and use this situation to increase their faith and trust in you. We love them dear Father just as we love all our fellow brothers and sisters and we pray that you would bless them and send someone to encourage them.

In Jesus name, amen.

Rullion Green
Dec 18th 2012, 12:36 AM
Amen.... May the Lord bless you and keep you, May the Father of mercies console and strengthen you.

Bandit
Dec 18th 2012, 12:44 AM
Hello,

I could not vote either way: circumstances are important. Although I do believe it is important to not hate another person, there are those cases where the best you can do is to wash your hands of the person, and turn the situation over to God. Paul's dealings with Alexander the coppersmith in 2nd Timothy 4:14 is an example. Sometimes all you can do is hand the person and the situation over to the LORD and say, "LORD, deal with them according to their deeds." But when sincere forgiveness is sought, we must always forgive.

John146
Dec 18th 2012, 01:11 AM
I understand what you're saying too; about passing judgment...
but apparently; the abuse that ndibari endured was also a serious situation, you know?...I'm sure it was and I didn't mean to be insensitive towards that. It's just that he can't use that as an excuse for judging his father and not loving him the way Jesus taught. That's all I intended to get across.


seems to me that he was seeking justice & vindication for the wrongs he's been subjected to...
especially since he recalled the excerpt about; "Vengeance is Mine, saith The Lord, I will repay"...That's understandable as long as he leaves that to God. But one thing I was trying to say earlier is that we don't know for certain that his father didn't repent at the last minute so we aren't in a position to judge people and declare that they are now in hell where they belong and getting what they deserve. We just can't do that.


besides; Christ Himself was all too familiar with enduring cruelty in this world, so He can totally relate to how it feels...
& His Teaching (about repentance BEFORE forgiveness) is of paramount importance, in balancing the issues ndibari is struggling with...
so he should not be made to feel alienated from God, you know?I understand. I don't know him personally, so it's always hard to tell how to approach someone in a situation like this. I approached it as him being a fellow believer who should have known better and in that case I think it's okay to be more firm than with someone else who doesn't know any better. Know what I mean? So, I know you and a couple others took offense to my approach but please know I only had the intention to correct him because I care about him. I don't want anyone to forfeit their own place in heaven by judging someone else and saying they deserve to be in hell.

John146
Dec 18th 2012, 01:14 AM
Dude the tone of your post was aggressive. It's a sensitive subject and you went on attack mode on him.
This thread wasnt meant for personal attacksDude...you are correct. I apologize for that. Now, in certain circumstances I think it's okay to take that approach. Look at how Jesus talked to the Laodiceans in Rev 3, for example. It depends on the situation. Anyway, I didn't mean any harm. I just want him to understand the importance of not judging others and loving our enemies. I know that can be hard to do sometimes, but I don't recall Jesus commanding us to do that unless it's too hard to do. We are expected to do that no matter what the circumstances may be.

Rullion Green
Dec 18th 2012, 01:21 AM
This is a great point not to be missed regarding imprection, all throughout the psalms we see some serious thoughts and pleas to God to punish people

How long must your servant wait?
When will you punish my persecutors? Psalm 119:84

You, Lord God Almighty,
you who are the God of Israel,
rouse yourself to punish all the nations;
show no mercy to wicked traitors. Psalm 59:5

Paul shows us this in the NT in your example, and also in Rev the beheaded martyrs cry for justice so were David, Paul and the martyrs wrong to ask God to serve justice to the people that wronged them ?

I like the definition someone gave of forgiveness as the giving up of the right to personally execute justice, they didn't say defer it to God though which is important imo, putting our burdens on Him as He cares for us, can include rightful claims on justice to be done. Vengeance is His and He will repay and it will be perfect justice, Matt 18:21-35 should give us all pause for thought and bring to remembrance that but for the grace of God there goes I. Think there is a lot more to be said for this. Not so clean cut as it looks, Wisdom and insight are needed we dont get to go round with grudges and try to cover it with the pretense of Christian morality, we have to trust God to do whats right and leave it with Him and let it go.

John146
Dec 18th 2012, 01:23 AM
I want to apologize for losing my cool.It's okay. I apologize for coming across too harsh. I didn't intend for that to be the case. I just don't want you to suffer the consequences of judging your father because that's what it seemed like you were doing. It's the easy thing to do but it isn't what Jesus taught us to do.


For whatever reason, this discussion stirred up some raw emotion. My father shot himself a year ago.I'm sorry to hear that. I didn't intend to be insensitive towards what you have gone through. I only wanted to show that judging your father and feeling disdain for him isn't the solution to the problem. That's all.


Every time I think I'm over it and have moved past the anger something knocks me off course. Dealing with his graphic suicide (he blew brains out right underneath a picture of me and my sister), and the aftermath of what he did prior to killing himself took a while to get over. Obviously I'm not completely over it. My sister and I are still dealing with the wreckage he left behind. He was a very evil man that did unspeakable, detestable acts that would make any sane person cringe. I've talked with pastors, shrinks, psychologists, etc. about the details and they were all pretty much speechless.I understand. How do you forgive someone like that? And yet God expects us to do that because vengeance is His, not ours. So, we should try to forgive and not hate the best we can because that is what God commands us to do. I know it isn't easy and I didn't mean to imply that it is.

John146
Dec 18th 2012, 01:30 AM
This is a great point not to be missed regarding imprection, all throughout the psalms we see some serious thoughts and pleas to God to punish people

How long must your servant wait?
When will you punish my persecutors? Psalm 119:84

You, Lord God Almighty,
you who are the God of Israel,
rouse yourself to punish all the nations;
show no mercy to wicked traitors. Psalm 59:5

Paul shows us this in the NT in your example, and also in Rev the beheaded martyrs cry for justice so were David, Paul and the martyrs wrong to ask God to serve justice to the people that wronged them ?It's not wrong, but at the same time we should allow for the possibility that the people who have wronged us might repent of what they did and they would then receive the same mercy that we have received. So, our priority should be to love our enemies and pray for them in the hope that they will repent before it's too late. At the same time it's okay to hope that justice will be served and that they are punished if they do not ever repent.


I like the definition someone gave of forgiveness as the giving up of the right to personally execute justice, they didn't say defer it to God though which is important imo, putting our burdens on Him as He cares for us, can include rightful claims on justice to be done. Vengeance is His and He will repay and it will be perfect justice, Matt 18:21-35 should give us all pause for thought and bring to remembrance that but for the grace of God there goes I. Think there is a lot more to be said for this. Not so clean cut as it looks, Wisdom and insight are needed we dont get to go round with grudges and try to cover it with the pretense of Christian morality, we have to trust God to do whats right and leave it with Him and let it go.I agree.

Rullion Green
Dec 18th 2012, 01:52 AM
It's not wrong, but at the same time we should allow for the possibility that the people who have wronged us might repent of what they did and they would then receive the same mercy that we have received. So, our priority should be to love our enemies and pray for them in the hope that they will repent before it's too late. At the same time it's okay to hope that justice will be served and that they are punished if they do not ever repent.


Yup prayer for justice and mercy can be offered on our part if we are wronged in a serious way, focusing on one and neglecting the other may prove to much to handle for us personally, our hearts cry out for justice and it needs to be addressed. Empty forgiveness is worthless, it has to be real, we can only let go when we give it to God and trust Him to do right...This way we know justice will be done by Him at His time and i can now by Gods grace forgive (as defined) being confident that justice will be done and i am free from the bondage of bitterness.

Nick
Dec 18th 2012, 02:49 AM
It's okay. I apologize for coming across too harsh. I didn't intend for that to be the case. I just don't want you to suffer the consequences of judging your father because that's what it seemed like you were doing. It's the easy thing to do but it isn't what Jesus taught us to do.

It's fine. Your comments hit a raw nerve, which shows me I still have a long way to go. If nothing else, he provided an excellent example of how not to treat my wife, kids and mother. His suicide was also what really motivated me to seek a different path than the one he taught me. I don't want to go out like that. He must have been dealing with a lot of pain, regret and shame to take his life in the manner he did. If that was case, I'll never know because all he cared about was his financial world collapsing. Money meant so much to him that he embezzled $3 Million from my Aunt while he was acting as Trustee of her estate. Sad thing is he left her destitute at 96 years with nothing. She's still alive too.

John146
Dec 18th 2012, 03:03 AM
It's fine. Your comments hit a raw nerve, which shows me I still have a long way to go.That's okay. I didn't know the extent of your situation, otherwise I would have responded differently. It's terrible what happened to you and I know it must be very hard to overcome the temptation to hold a grudge and harbor bitterness towards your dad. But please keep trying to do that because it's what God wants us to do. That's all I was trying to say.


If nothing else, he provided an excellent example of how not to treat my wife, kids and mother.Anything positive you can take from the situation is good. Try to look at it this way as much as you can.


His suicide was also what really motivated me to seek a different path than the one he taught me. I don't want to go out like that. He must have been dealing with a lot of pain, regret and shame to take his life in the manner he did. If that was case, I'll never know because all he cared about was his financial world collapsing. Money meant so much to him that he embezzled $3 Million from my Aunt while he was acting as Trustee of her estate. Sad thing is he left her destitute at 96 years with nothing. She's still alive too.It can be very stressful to have financial problems but he obviously chose the wrong way to handle it. I'm sorry you had to deal with all that. It's a very tough situation and I'm not going to pretend I know what it's like. I don't. I just want to encourage you to try the best you can to not hold a grudge against your dad and just let God be his Judge.

Realist1981
Dec 18th 2012, 04:03 AM
This is a great point not to be missed regarding imprection, all throughout the psalms we see some serious thoughts and pleas to God to punish people

How long must your servant wait?
When will you punish my persecutors? Psalm 119:84

You, Lord God Almighty,
you who are the God of Israel,
rouse yourself to punish all the nations;
show no mercy to wicked traitors. Psalm 59:5

Paul shows us this in the NT in your example, and also in Rev the beheaded martyrs cry for justice so were David, Paul and the martyrs wrong to ask God to serve justice to the people that wronged them ?

I like the definition someone gave of forgiveness as the giving up of the right to personally execute justice, they didn't say defer it to God though which is important imo, putting our burdens on Him as He cares for us, can include rightful claims on justice to be done. Vengeance is His and He will repay and it will be perfect justice, Matt 18:21-35 should give us all pause for thought and bring to remembrance that but for the grace of God there goes I. Think there is a lot more to be said for this. Not so clean cut as it looks, Wisdom and insight are needed we dont get to go round with grudges and try to cover it with the pretense of Christian morality, we have to trust God to do whats right and leave it with Him and let it go.

Thank you for that I appreciated this.

Christinme
Dec 18th 2012, 12:47 PM
Are you required??? Required by whom, for what??? Or do you mean should you, or maybe why should you? We know God has forgiven us, should we not forgive others ... Having said that does our forgiveness mean giving opportunity for someone we forgave to do more harm ... I think not. I fully expect to see everyone who has harmed me in heaven ... why because as I have forgiven them so has God.

John 20:23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

Unforgiveness is toxic ... again I'm not saying one should put themselves or especially others in harms way ... however for one to heal one needs to forgive those who have done them wrong. And for those who have done them wrong the only way they can even begin to understand the wrong that they have done is for them to be healed by God.

divaD
Dec 18th 2012, 02:06 PM
I fully expect to see everyone who has harmed me in heaven ... why because as I have forgiven them so has God.

John 20:23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.




Can you point out where this concept is taught in Scriptures? I realize you used John 20:23 to make your point, but I don't see where that passage indicates this automatically gets others into heaven. What if it were an atheist that harmed you, for example, and that you had forgiven them? Wouldn't that mean a person can bypass the only way into heaven, meaning the Son, and still get their anyway, and not even have to believe in God the whole time, because a Christian had forgiven them? Doesn't that then imply that the way to heaven is via a believer, and not necessarily via the Son?

Christinme
Dec 18th 2012, 05:13 PM
Can you point out where this concept is taught in Scriptures? I realize you used John 20:23 to make your point, but I don't see where that passage indicates this automatically gets others into heaven. What if it were an atheist that harmed you, for example, and that you had forgiven them? Wouldn't that mean a person can bypass the only way into heaven, meaning the Son, and still get their anyway, and not even have to believe in God the whole time, because a Christian had forgiven them? Doesn't that then imply that the way to heaven is via a believer, and not necessarily via the Son?I agree they must go to heaven via the Son ... and I should have said it was my hope to see them in heaven ... but being my hope it's what I'm expecting. Sorry for the confusion.

divaD
Dec 18th 2012, 05:40 PM
I agree they must go to heaven via the Son ... and I should have said it was my hope to see them in heaven ... but being my hope it's what I'm expecting. Sorry for the confusion.



In that case then, we're on the same page after all. Sorry I misunderstood you. :)

Nick
Dec 18th 2012, 09:22 PM
Are you required??? Required by whom, for what??? Or do you mean should you, or maybe why should you? We know God has forgiven us, should we not forgive others ... Having said that does our forgiveness mean giving opportunity for someone we forgave to do more harm ... I think not. I fully expect to see everyone who has harmed me in heaven ... why because as I have forgiven them so has God.

John 20:23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

Unforgiveness is toxic ... again I'm not saying one should put themselves or especially others in harms way ... however for one to heal one needs to forgive those who have done them wrong. And for those who have done them wrong the only way they can even begin to understand the wrong that they have done is for them to be healed by God.

John 20:23 was a special privilege Jesus gave to his disciples after his resurrection. There is no practical application of that today other than our own personal repentance for forgiveness of our sins, which also requires forgiving others. Taken literally, Jesus gave his disciples the unique privilege of allowing someone to be saved to sent to hell. We don't have such privilege.

chad
Dec 18th 2012, 11:54 PM
Jesus teaching his disciples on prayer ... and of forgiveness

(Luke 11:4 NIV) Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation.'"


...

(Luke 11:1 NIV) One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples."

(Luke 11:2 NIV) He said to them, "When you pray, say: "'Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come.

(Luke 11:3 NIV) Give us each day our daily bread.

(Luke 11:4 NIV) Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation.'"

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 19th 2012, 05:45 PM
Hello,

I could not vote either way: circumstances are important. Although I do believe it is important to not hate another person,


:agree: with you about circumstances & also that we should not harbor hatred for anyone



there are those cases where the best you can do is to wash your hands of the person, and turn the situation over to God. Paul's dealings with Alexander the coppersmith in 2nd Timothy 4:14 is an example. Sometimes all you can do is hand the person and the situation over to the LORD and say, "LORD, deal with them according to their deeds."


indeed :yes: this is a classic example of conflicts that could not be reconciled... & sometimes it is best to just avoid the offender; being wary of further conflicts, you know?...

14 Alexander the coppersmith did me great wrongs. The Lord will pay him back for his actions.

15 Beware of him yourself, for he opposed and resisted our message very strongly and exceedingly.
{from AMP}




But when sincere forgiveness is sought, we must always forgive.


:amen: Pay attention and always be on your guard [looking out for one another]. If your brother sins (misses the mark), solemnly tell him so and reprove him, and if he repents (feels sorry for having sinned), forgive him. {Luke 17:3 AMP}

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 19th 2012, 05:55 PM
http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Nobunaga http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2928745#post2928745)
This is a great point not to be missed regarding imprection, all throughout the psalms we see some serious thoughts and pleas to God to punish people

How long must your servant wait?
When will you punish my persecutors? Psalm 119:84

You, Lord God Almighty,
you who are the God of Israel,
rouse yourself to punish all the nations;
show no mercy to wicked traitors. Psalm 59:5

Paul shows us this in the NT in your example, and also in Rev the beheaded martyrs cry for justice so were David, Paul and the martyrs wrong to ask God to serve justice to the people that wronged them ?





It's not wrong, but at the same time we should allow for the possibility that the people who have wronged us might repent of what they did and they would then receive the same mercy that we have received. So, our priority should be to love our enemies and pray for them in the hope that they will repent before it's too late. At the same time it's okay to hope that justice will be served and that they are punished if they do not ever repent.


so glad :) to see the issue of repentance being accentuated along with forgiveness... as this promotes a well balanced approach to sound Biblical doctrine

divaD
Dec 19th 2012, 06:26 PM
Here's a real life situation that has been happening with me. I used to work for this person's father, but he has pretty much retired now. So now he's put his son in charge of things. The last two jobs i worked on, his son got me for about 165 bucks, because he used that money to buy him drugs according to his mother. I have no problem forgiving him his debt, the fact this happened months ago, and still haven't seen a single dime of this money. So it's probably best for me to just let it go, since it's only money. But the thing is, there's not a whole lot of work going on right now, and this person is basically the only person to work for if I want to work. But why should I work for someone that can't be trusted? And if I forgave him his debt, couldn't he take that to mean it's ok to take advantage of me any time he feels like it? I've been doing the same trade for about 30 years, so it's not like I have a lot of experience doing other things. And besides, I enjoy this trade, the fact I'm rather good at it. I guess what my point is, is this. When you forgive someone that can't be trusted, does that mean you should then put yourself back into that same situation, where the same thing could happen again and again?

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 19th 2012, 06:40 PM
John 20:23 was a special privilege Jesus gave to his disciples after his resurrection. There is no practical application of that today other than our own personal repentance for forgiveness of our sins, which also requires forgiving others. Taken literally, Jesus gave his disciples the unique privilege of allowing someone to be saved to sent to hell. We don't have such privilege.


:agree: that is was a special privilege; for His Disciples to have received the Holy Spirit from Christ Himself (in Person)...
I'm also hoping that you might clarify what you meant by your underlined point... as I've known several people who are inclined to think certain things don't apply to us today :note: although they did not seem to be aware of the promise in Acts 2:39...

John 20 {AMP}
22 And having said this, He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit!
23 [Now having received the Holy Spirit, and being led and directed by Him] if you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained.

Acts 2 {KJV}

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, :note: even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 19th 2012, 07:50 PM
Here's a real life situation that has been happening with me. I used to work for this person's father, but he has pretty much retired now. So now he's put his son in charge of things. The last two jobs i worked on, his son got me for about 165 bucks, because he used that money to buy him drugs according to his mother. I have no problem forgiving him his debt, the fact this happened months ago, and still haven't seen a single dime of this money. So it's probably best for me to just let it go, since it's only money. But the thing is, there's not a whole lot of work going on right now, and this person is basically the only person to work for if I want to work.
But why should I work for someone that can't be trusted? And if I forgave him his debt, couldn't he take that to mean it's ok to take advantage of me any time he feels like it? I've been doing the same trade for about 30 years, so it's not like I have a lot of experience doing other things. And besides, I enjoy this trade, the fact I'm rather good at it.
I guess what my point is, is this. When you forgive someone that can't be trusted, does that mean you should then put yourself back into that same situation, where the same thing could happen again and again?


I can relate to much of what you're saying here... since I've been through somewhat similar scenarios myself... although your situation is tougher :help: because it's an employer & jobs can be mighty hard to come by these days... but our main point of common ground is in finding out we were unknowingly enabling something that's clearly not God's Will...
like how our hard lesson learned; was with my Mother's neighbor lady... she was originally very sweet & would say how grateful she was for us being "Good Christians willing to help her out"... since she frequently would not have enough $$ for her light bill, rent or groceries... we didn't even expect her to pay it back, because we knew it might be a hardship for her to do that...
though we subsequently found out that we were among many different people she'd approached & that she had been using the $$ for booze & dope...
meaning that; not only had she been playing us all for fools :confused but we'd been essentially enabling her not so "Good Christian" habit's, you know?...
so the next time she solicited $$ from us; we offered to actually take her grocery shopping or up to the electric company to pay the bill... she declined by saying she'd been sick & still didn't feel well enough to go anywhere... but when we offered to pick up whatever groceries she might need, she kinda snapped back at us :mad: with "nevermind about it then!"...
she rarely even speaks to us anymore & sometimes just glares at us from her front porch, when we go visit Mom :dunno:

which is why I appreciated your post so much :thumbsup: because it does pose some important questions about forgiveness... & also how important trust is; in relation to that...
like; while we can (& should) forgive Mom's neighbor for taking us for granted, snapping at us & even snubbing us...
should we be gullible enough to trust her & give her $$ again?... since that seems to be the only way she'd be willing to let go of her grudge? :confused
or perhaps reconciliation would not be what's best?... perhaps we should just move on?... let go & let God deal with her heart, you know?

boangry
Dec 19th 2012, 08:32 PM
Depends what people mean when they say forgive! Some are using the word forgive as from there own perspective like this meaning;

1. stop being angry about something: to stop being angry about or resenting somebody or somebody's behaviour.

Some are using the word like this: 2. pardon somebody: to excuse somebody for a mistake, misunderstanding, wrongdoing, or inappropriate behaviour

And some like this: 3. cancel obligation: to cancel an obligation such as a debt.

To use this example because it’s a real life one.




Here's a real life situation that has been happening with me. I used to work for this person's father, but he has pretty much retired now. So now he's put his son in charge of things. The last two jobs i worked on, his son got me for about 165 bucks, because he used that money to buy him drugs according to his mother. I have no problem forgiving him his debt, the fact this happened months ago, and still haven't seen a single dime of this money. So it's probably best for me to just let it go, since it's only money. But the thing is, there's not a whole lot of work going on right now, and this person is basically the only person to work for if I want to work. But why should I work for someone that can't be trusted? And if I forgave him his debt, couldn't he take that to mean it's ok to take advantage of me any time he feels like it? I've been doing the same trade for about 30 years, so it's not like I have a lot of experience doing other things. And besides, I enjoy this trade, the fact I'm rather good at it. I guess what my point is, is this. When you forgive someone that can't be trusted, does that mean you should then put yourself back into that same situation, where the same thing could happen again and again?

I would forgive them from point one perspective, because he may repent, and a sin against me is actually a sin against God its for him to sort out. I would not forgive them from point two as he needs to know he has sinned so he can repent and if he does admit(confess) his wrongdoing then I would forgive him from point 2 If he was to offer the money rightfully owed then I would take it then forgive him from point 3.

Of course I am not a holy God and could forgive his dept or obligation from point 3 without receiving the money if I so wanted but I would not do it unless point 2 was fulfilled. I could forgive from point 3 if his mother paid me the money but not point 2 unless he has repented.

Point three is exactly the same case as the Lord cancelling the debt on the cross, no one could go to heaven before Christ came, for He cancelled the obligation for each and everyman in the world to God, He has paid the price owing in full. God required this as He is a Holy God and the debt we owed for sin was death. He bore all our sin upon himself on that cruel cross.

This is why the OT saints had to go to the grave, they could not go to heaven unless point 3 has happened.

But point 3 is useless without point 2, God does not pardon us unless we repent, admit(confess) our wrong doing, when we do point 2... to summarise we are washed clean by the blood only by first being forgiven as in point 2

And because God accepted His only begotten sons substitution on our behalf , Just as if the mother paid what was owing in the example, all have point 3 available to us, we only have to accept it as a free gift, And Jesus is not only willing to bear all that due us to himself but has already done it for all, why would any spurn such a gift, and how grateful for this life depending payment should all be?

Just to clarify we are to love those we dont forgive from point 2 or 3 and forgive them from point one for our own sakes, remember God so loved the world he gave us his own son while we were still sinners yet he still needed to make man aware of our sinfulness and obligation owed to him even when it caused the righteous to hate Him, even to the point of being put to death, since we are dead to this world anyway, and no longer under the fear of death we also need to follow His example and make them aware that they need to get things right with the Lord.

Vhayes
Dec 19th 2012, 11:03 PM
Here's a real life situation that has been happening with me. I used to work for this person's father, but he has pretty much retired now. So now he's put his son in charge of things. The last two jobs i worked on, his son got me for about 165 bucks, because he used that money to buy him drugs according to his mother. I have no problem forgiving him his debt, the fact this happened months ago, and still haven't seen a single dime of this money. So it's probably best for me to just let it go, since it's only money. But the thing is, there's not a whole lot of work going on right now, and this person is basically the only person to work for if I want to work. But why should I work for someone that can't be trusted? And if I forgave him his debt, couldn't he take that to mean it's ok to take advantage of me any time he feels like it? I've been doing the same trade for about 30 years, so it's not like I have a lot of experience doing other things. And besides, I enjoy this trade, the fact I'm rather good at it. I guess what my point is, is this. When you forgive someone that can't be trusted, does that mean you should then put yourself back into that same situation, where the same thing could happen again and again?
No. Start your own business.

divaD
Dec 20th 2012, 01:27 AM
No. Start your own business.



Actually I have started my own business, like 29 years ago. People used to work for me around here all the time. I had the best reputation in town, as far as this trade goes. But I didn't have a big crew nor want a big crew, because I was real particular about the quality of the work I provided. The more people you have on a crew, the better the chances are of some of them ruining your good reputation by doing shabby work. Around here quality used to come first. But when Bush was in office, this area was booming big time in relation to the type of work I do, which is hanging sheetrock in new homes. Eventually most of the builders around here decided they needed to get things done faster. What might take me and 2 others three days to do, a big crew could do it in 1 day sometimes. Eventually I couldn't compete anymore, and decided to work for others by the hour and pretty much quit sub-contracting. My wages of course dropped. I went from making 45 to 75 bucks an hour(this trade is piece work pretty much) to around 25 bucks an hour. But as far as this one that got me for 165 bucks, I guess it could have been much worse. He at least paid me the biggest majority of what I had coming at the time, and pretty much lied to me why he didn't have the rest of it. And the strange thing about it, this same person had worked for me numerous times in the past. Not one time did I ever play games with the money I owed him, nor did I ever not pay him in full after every job was completed.

Nick
Dec 29th 2012, 02:55 AM
:agree: that is was a special privilege; for His Disciples to have received the Holy Spirit from Christ Himself (in Person)...
I'm also hoping that you might clarify what you meant by your underlined point... as I've known several people who are inclined to think certain things don't apply to us today :note: although they did not seem to be aware of the promise in Acts 2:39...

John 20 {AMP}
22 And having said this, He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit!
23 [Now having received the Holy Spirit, and being led and directed by Him] if you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained.

Acts 2 {KJV}

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, :note: even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The verse says "If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” The disciples were given Godly powers to forgive people's sins and save them. They also had the power to not forgive them which resulted in them going to hell. We don't have such powers. In fact, if we don't forgive we're not forgiven.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 29th 2012, 05:42 PM
http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Proverbs 3:5-7 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2929547#post2929547)
Acts 2 {KJV}

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.





The verse says "If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” The disciples were given Godly powers to forgive people's sins and save them. They also had the power to not forgive them which resulted in them going to hell. We don't have such powers. In fact, if we don't forgive we're not forgiven.


it seems that your stance is implying unconditional forgiveness (for modern Believers anyway)... & your opinion is entirely your prerogative... as you don't have to agree with me about everything, anymore than I have to agree with you about everything... so my question is not concerning that aspect...

but I'm just trying to clarify about the gift of the Holy Ghost... do you believe this is for Believers today? or not?

Nick
Dec 29th 2012, 05:56 PM
http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Proverbs 3:5-7 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2929547#post2929547)
Acts 2 {KJV}

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.





it seems that your stance is implying unconditional forgiveness (for modern Believers anyway)... & your opinion is entirely your prerogative... as you don't have to agree with me about everything, anymore than I have to agree with you about everything... so my question is not concerning that aspect...

but I'm just trying to clarify about the gift of the Holy Ghost... do you believe this is for Believers today? or not?

What are you jumping to Acts? There is no cross reference to that verse other than what is said in Mt. 16:19 and 18:18. Speaking to Peter, Jesus says in 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” And again, in 18:18 " “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven[/B].

You don't see how what is said in John in 20:23, Mt. 16:9 and Mt 18:18 were special privileges Jesus gave to his disciples at that time? Let me ask you this...do you think that whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven? Or put another way, if you forgive someone's sins does that automatically mean they will be forgiven by God for the same sins?

Proverbs 3:5-7
Dec 29th 2012, 10:57 PM
Acts 2 {KJV}

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.



What are you jumping to Acts?


because you're implying things AS IF they're exclusive ONLY to the Apostles & no longer applicable to Believers NOW... which I'm NOT inclined to agree with...
so I'd quoted that passage to clarify the reason WHY I cannot agree with what you're implying

& I believe in taking the WHOLE Truth of Scripture into account, by seeking & promoting how it coincides TOGETHER... as I do NOT believe that ANY verse or passage contradicts another



There is no cross reference to that verse other than what is said in Mt. 16:19 and 18:18. Speaking to Peter, Jesus says in 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” And again, in 18:18 " “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.


it's understandable that these "binding & loosing" passages WOULD BE equated WITH forgiveness (by Catholics anyway) to support their practice of confession to a priest...

but I'm a Protestant Christian (& Full Gospel) so I believe they pertain to different issues... such as "binding" pertaining to things like Marriage Covenants or ordaining Church clergy... or "loosing" pertaining to things like healing/deliverance from infirmities or illness OR even casting out demons


You don't see how what is said in John in 20:23, Mt. 16:9 and Mt 18:18 were special privileges Jesus gave to his disciples at that time? Let me ask you this...do you think that whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven? Or put another way, if you forgive someone's sins does that automatically mean they will be forgiven by God for the same sins?


I'd hesitate to even imply that we have the EXACT SAME Authority as God Himself...
as we should follow His example & NOT the other way around...

although I CAN see how John 20:23 DOES directly coincide with Christ's formula for forgiveness in Luke 17:3...
as long as the decision to "retain" or "remit" sins is based upon that formula...

IF offenses could not be reconciled (due to UN-repentance) then those "retained" sins would be remanded to God; for Him to decide... but I DON'T think we should hang onto bitterness or resentment either...

because ultimately; EVERY individual is personally accountable to God... to submit to Him in humility & repentance for their OWN sins... to be forgiven BY HIM & reconciled to Him through Christ