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View Full Version : OSAS , EPH 2:5 AND 8 !!



dan p
Dec 27th 2012, 07:41 PM
Hi to all and I see that some do not believe that once God saves us , that we can lose salvation .

Lets see what Eph 2:5 and verse 8 and God have to say about a subject the has brothered believers for thousands of years .

Eph 2:5 ,8 read , For by Grace you are HAVING BEEN SAVED !!

SOZO/SAVED is in the Perfect Tense , Passive Voice and a Participle !!

#1 , The Participle is the word HAVING !!

#2 , The Passive Voice , means that God is DOING the saving , because man can never , nor will ever be able to save anyone , for it takes the blood of Christ .

#3 , The Perfect Tense is a combo of the Aorist and Present Tense .

#4 , The Aorist Tense speaks to a point in time in the Past , like when you were saved !!

The Present tense means Continuing Results of that Salvation !!

That means we are saved in the Past and ALWAYS Continue in Present time until we die , so OSAS !!

This is JUST one of many verse that prove OSAS !!


The Perfect Tense of Eph 2:5 and 8 can be checked on the internet !!

dan p

Ernest T Bass
Jan 18th 2013, 06:59 PM
Hi to all and I see that some do not believe that once God saves us , that we can lose salvation .

Lets see what Eph 2:5 and verse 8 and God have to say about a subject the has brothered believers for thousands of years .

Eph 2:5 ,8 read , For by Grace you are HAVING BEEN SAVED !!

SOZO/SAVED is in the Perfect Tense , Passive Voice and a Participle !!

#1 , The Participle is the word HAVING !!

#2 , The Passive Voice , means that God is DOING the saving , because man can never , nor will ever be able to save anyone , for it takes the blood of Christ .

#3 , The Perfect Tense is a combo of the Aorist and Present Tense .

#4 , The Aorist Tense speaks to a point in time in the Past , like when you were saved !!

The Present tense means Continuing Results of that Salvation !!

That means we are saved in the Past and ALWAYS Continue in Present time until we die , so OSAS !!

This is JUST one of many verse that prove OSAS !!


The Perfect Tense of Eph 2:5 and 8 can be checked on the internet !!

dan p

Hi,

One cannot view salvation from a Calvinistic view point that God, before the world began, was suppose to have unconditionally / randomly pre-selected certain individuals to be saved no matter what. What God did do before the world began was pre-select a class or group called "Christian" that would be saved and God never pre-determined what individuals would or would not be in that group. Anyone who of his own will who chooses to obey the gospel truth can become part of that group and thereby become a Christian. Those that quit obeying the gospel truth can fall from that group and be lost.

So as long as those Ephesians remained in that group (Christian) then they would be saved in the perfect tense. But if any fell away from that group (as they did years later in Rev 2:1-7) then those individuals will be lost but the group (Christian) remains saved in the perfect tense. So it is the group (Christian) that is saved perfect tense and not any individual unconditionally saved in the perfect tense.

TheDivineWatermark
Jan 18th 2013, 07:12 PM
One problem with that ^... (though I agree He didn't "pre-select certain individuals to be saved")

1 Corinthians 12:13

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."


The word "baptized" here (by the Spirit, at salvation) is one that "produces a permanent change" (in other words, OSAS or "eternal security" is in agreement with this).

Ernest T Bass
Jan 18th 2013, 07:29 PM
One problem with that ^... (though I agree He didn't "pre-select certain individuals to be saved")

1 Corinthians 12:13

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."


The word "baptized" here (by the Spirit, at salvation) is one that "produces a permanent change" (in other words, OSAS or "eternal security" is in agreement with this).

Hi,

I do not get how you are getting that "baptized into one body" is permanent. 1 Cor 12:13 is a reference to water baptism of Jn 3:5 whereby when one is baptized (as those in Acts 2 who obeyed Peter's words of verse 38) then they are added to the one body (added to the one church Acts 2:47) But those that quit obeying the gospel truth can fall away from that one body/one church, they fall away from that group (Christian) that is saved perfect tense.

Again in Rev 2:1-7 Jesus issued a threat - repent or else have their candlestick (or church - Rev 1:20) removed for they had left their first love and were fallen.

TheDivineWatermark
Jan 18th 2013, 07:35 PM
So, you don't think John 3:5 has anything to do with John 3:6 (?), which says:

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

guero
Jan 18th 2013, 07:47 PM
LOL - I see we are responding to a 4 year old post. Still it is interesting.

Theological arguments aside, I am not sure the logical argument is valid. Because one was saved in the past and continues to be saved in the present does not mean that one cannot lose salvation. We need only think of one counter-example. If one is saved but later, for example, blasphemes the Holy Spirit, then that person will be liable to eternal damnation (Mark 3:30). Or if one is saved, yet does not abide by the commandments given by Christ in the Gospel, then that person likewise is liable to damnation:

Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matthew 25:41–46)

Perhaps we are confused about the nature of salvation itself. There is a general salvation that is for everyone and then a personal rebirth and new life in Christ - a personal salvation, if you will. Everyone receives the general salvation - even Chairman Mao, Osama Bin-Laden, Genghis Khan, etc. To whit:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world (John 1:29).

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:15).

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time (1 Timothy 2:5–6).

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe (1 Timothy 4:10).

The question is, what do we do with this salvation that is given to us? I think the answer is to repent and to reconcile ourselves to God:

God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:19–20)

Ernest T Bass
Jan 18th 2013, 07:53 PM
So, you don't think John 3:5 has anything to do with John 3:6 (?), which says:

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Yes.

Jn 3:5----------------Spirit++++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13------------SPirit+++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body


Since there is just only one way to be saved then both verses must express the same idea.

So Spirit is equivalent to Spirit

water is equivalent to baptized

in the kingdom is equivalent to in the body


So 1 Cor 12:13 is a clear reference to where the Corinthians were born again by spirit and water baptism and thereby added to the one body/kingdom.

But what I am not getting is in the OP he listed Eph 2:5,8. Where in these verses did Paul tell the Ephesians they were unconditionally/permanently added to the body/church/group and will permanently, unconditionally remain part of that body/church/group.

Walls
Jan 18th 2013, 08:00 PM
This issue is dealt with regularly in about 3 monthly relays on this Forum. Exhaustive arguments are available in this Forum in this matter. Even tempers get frayed. The stumbling-block to both Calvin and Arminius was that they both had good arguments, but could not deal with the opponent's arguments. May I propose something very briefly that solves this issue.

If salvation is being born again and going to heaven when one dies, then the argument will never be solved. But if one is born again as a qualification to enter the kingdom, as John Chapter 3 says, and entering the kingdom can be forfeited by evil works AFTER REBIRTH, and the Kingdom of the heavens is that period here on earth AFTER CHRIST'S SECOND COMING, then the matter is easily solved. A Christian can be born into the household of God, and in eternity future, miss the Lake of Fire because of Christ's completed works. But if he/she acts perfidiously AFTER REBIRTH, and is barred from entering the 1'000 year kingdom of our Lord Jesus on earth after His return, then his/her salvation is intact by virtue of the fact that it was based on the works of Jesus Christ, BUT he/she looses their inheritance for 1'000 years of Christ's reign on earth.

If all the verses concerning rebirth and possessing eternal life are examine accurately one immediately sees that this issue is based on faith, and because it is effected by Christ's works, can never be lost. If all the verses speaking of the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of the Heavens and "entering into" life are examined carefully, one immediately sees that they are attached to works, e.g. 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-20 and Ephesians 5:5, and can be lost.

Calvin and Arminius were genuine students of God's Word but neither saw the full picture, thus their unending controversy. On this Forum, many are genuine students of God's Word but they haven't seen the whole picture, so controversy is unending. But those who have seen the big picture have no such problem. Calvin couldn't suffer Arminius and visa versa. But Darby, McIntosh, William Kelly, and others outside the Brethren like Govett and Panton had no such problems.

Watchman
Jan 18th 2013, 08:10 PM
Baptism in/by/with the Holy Spirit is the only thing that produces a change. Note how the physician and poet, Nicander, of circa 200 BC wrote of pickles: to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (bapto) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizo ) in the vinegar solution.

Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptizing the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, baptizo more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism... mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with Him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle!"

The Greeks used baptizo to describe the dyeing of a garment, in which the whole material was plunged in and taken out from the element used. Baptizo was used of the act of sinking ships. Baptizo also meant to bathe or a boat which had been wrecked by being submerged and then stranded on the shore.

Figuratively, baptizo pictures the introduction or placing of a person or thing into a new environment or into union with something else so as to alter its condition or its relationship to its previous environment or condition. In this sense baptizo means to be identified with. from Precept-Austin

blessings,

W :)

Ernest T Bass
Jan 18th 2013, 08:19 PM
This issue is dealt with regularly in about 3 monthly relays on this Forum. Exhaustive arguments are available in this Forum in this matter. Even tempers get frayed. The stumbling-block to both Calvin and Arminius was that they both had good arguments, but could not deal with the opponent's arguments. May I propose something very briefly that solves this issue.

If salvation is being born again and going to heaven when one dies, then the argument will never be solved. But if one is born again as a qualification to enter the kingdom, as John Chapter 3 says, and entering the kingdom can be forfeited by evil works AFTER REBIRTH, and the Kingdom of the heavens is that period here on earth AFTER CHRIST'S SECOND COMING, then the matter is easily solved. A Christian can be born into the household of God, and in eternity future, miss the Lake of Fire because of Christ's completed works. But if he/she acts perfidiously AFTER REBIRTH, and is barred from entering the 1'000 year kingdom of our Lord Jesus on earth after His return, then his/her salvation is intact by virtue of the fact that it was based on the works of Jesus Christ, BUT he/she looses their inheritance for 1'000 years of Christ's reign on earth.

If all the verses concerning rebirth and possessing eternal life are examine accurately one immediately sees that this issue is based on faith, and because it is effected by Christ's works, can never be lost. If all the verses speaking of the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of the Heavens and "entering into" life are examined carefully, one immediately sees that they are attached to works, e.g. 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-20 and Ephesians 5:5, and can be lost.

Calvin and Arminius were genuine students of God's Word but neither saw the full picture, thus their unending controversy. On this Forum, many are genuine students of God's Word but they haven't seen the whole picture, so controversy is unending. But those who have seen the big picture have no such problem. Calvin couldn't suffer Arminius and visa versa. But Darby, McIntosh, William Kelly, and others outside the Brethren like Govett and Panton had no such problems.

I respectfully disagree and will stick with what I said in post #2.

Ernest T Bass
Jan 18th 2013, 08:26 PM
Baptism in/by/with the Holy Spirit is the only thing that produces a change. Note how the physician and poet, Nicander, of circa 200 BC wrote of pickles: to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (bapto) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizo ) in the vinegar solution.

Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptizing the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, baptizo more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism... mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with Him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle!"

The Greeks used baptizo to describe the dyeing of a garment, in which the whole material was plunged in and taken out from the element used. Baptizo was used of the act of sinking ships. Baptizo also meant to bathe or a boat which had been wrecked by being submerged and then stranded on the shore.

Figuratively, baptizo pictures the introduction or placing of a person or thing into a new environment or into union with something else so as to alter its condition or its relationship to its previous environment or condition. In this sense baptizo means to be identified with. from Precept-Austin

blessings,

W :)

I would disagree with this for when Paul penned the Ephesian epistle he said there is 'one baptism'. Water baptism being that one baptism in effect oday therefore no one today is baptized with the Holy Spirit.

TheDivineWatermark
Jan 18th 2013, 08:31 PM
Calvin couldn't suffer Arminius and visa versa. But Darby, McIntosh, William Kelly, and others [...] had no such problems.

I agree with the perspective of Darby, Mackintosh, and William Kelly. :thumbsup:

I think it differs slightly with yours, but is very, very similar. Believers who are "in Christ" (i.e. the body of Christ, "the Church which is His body" Eph 1:22-23) can never lose or forfeit salvation (being "baptized into Christ" and permanently sealed with the Holy Spirit)... but I do believe that those who are to enter the (earthly) "kingdom of the heavens" (Millennial Kingdom, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth) can be excluded from it. This, however, does not apply to "the body of Christ," those who are "in Christ" (that is, all who have trusted in Christ's finished work alone for salvation, during this Church-dispensation/age). Our destiny is secure, and its [sure] end is "with Him" (1 Thessalonians 5:10, Colossians 3:3-4, 2 Corinthians 5:8 ["for we know" vs. 1], etc), though our "rewards" (connected with this) may differ.

Tony Cross
Jan 18th 2013, 08:51 PM
Hi,

One cannot view salvation from a Calvinistic view point that God, before the world began, was suppose to have unconditionally / randomly pre-selected certain individuals to be saved no matter what. What God did do before the world began was pre-select a class or group called "Christian" that would be saved and God never pre-determined what individuals would or would not be in that group. Anyone who of his own will who chooses to obey the gospel truth can become part of that group and thereby become a Christian. Those that quit obeying the gospel truth can fall from that group and be lost.

So as long as those Ephesians remained in that group (Christian) then they would be saved in the perfect tense. But if any fell away from that group (as they did years later in Rev 2:1-7) then those individuals will be lost but the group (Christian) remains saved in the perfect tense. So it is the group (Christian) that is saved perfect tense and not any individual unconditionally saved in the perfect tense.

Excellent Ernest. I fully believe this is what the scriptures teach us on this subject as I have pointed out (ok, maybe argued) on other threads.

Ernest T Bass
Jan 19th 2013, 04:46 PM
Excellent Ernest. I fully believe this is what the scriptures teach us on this subject as I have pointed out (ok, maybe argued) on other threads.

Hi,

Even in the OP the statement was made (my emp) "That means we are saved in the Past and ALWAYS Continue in Present time until we die , so OSAS !!"


It's WE the group that is saved and not the individual being saved unconditionally or apart from that group (Christian)