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ross3421
Dec 28th 2012, 10:01 PM
The passage in Dan 9 has little or nothing to do with Gentiles. The prayer of Daniel was for the forgiveness of his people Israel.

Da 9:15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

Da 9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

Daniel speaks of a covenant given to his people previously.

Da 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

Da 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
Da 9:12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
Da 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
Da 9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

Da 9:19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.


Daniel is speaking of the Abrahamic Covenant of the land and for God to forgive his people and their iniquities and keep the promise

Ge 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Ex 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Ex 2:25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them.
Ex 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.
Ex 6:5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:


Da 9:27 And he (God) shall confirm the covenant (Abrahamic) with many (144,000) for one week (7 days feast of tabernacles):


Problems with the covenant being other than the Abrahamic

Satan's Covenant

Da 9:27 And he (Satan) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (Satan) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (Satan) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

There are a couple of concerns to note with this view.

1. The "he" in the passage needs to remain constant so who ever is the first he is also the second and third subject . So then the verse would read Satan makes it desolate due to his OWN abominations.

2. What covenant has Satan made previously which now he is confirming?

The New Covenant

1. The covenant is directed to Israel in the chapter. When we read the first part of the chapter we see Daniel mentioning a covenant concerning Israel which thoughout the ages has been confirmed to those of Israel who have obeyed and a curse to those which have departed. So why now would we expect that the next mention of a covenant is then different?

2. As noted in my other thread "cut off" thus does not apply the cross.

vinsight4u8
Dec 29th 2012, 10:13 AM
Daniel supplicated over something at the start of ch 9. Gabriel was sent to him because of that.
Gabriel told him to consider the vision, but did not then show him one. Did Gabriel mean consider ch 8? Ch 8 has a treaty.

Walls
Dec 30th 2012, 04:47 PM
The passage in Dan 9 has little or nothing to do with Gentiles. The prayer of Daniel was for the forgiveness of his people Israel.

Da 9:15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

Da 9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

Daniel speaks of a covenant given to his people previously.

Da 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

Da 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
Da 9:12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
Da 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
Da 9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

Da 9:19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.


Daniel is speaking of the Abrahamic Covenant of the land and for God to forgive his people and their iniquities and keep the promise

Ge 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Ex 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Ex 2:25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them.
Ex 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.
Ex 6:5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:


Da 9:27 And he (God) shall confirm the covenant (Abrahamic) with many (144,000) for one week (7 days feast of tabernacles):


Problems with the covenant being other than the Abrahamic

Satan's Covenant

Da 9:27 And he (Satan) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (Satan) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (Satan) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

There are a couple of concerns to note with this view.

1. The "he" in the passage needs to remain constant so who ever is the first he is also the second and third subject . So then the verse would read Satan makes it desolate due to his OWN abominations.

2. What covenant has Satan made previously which now he is confirming?

The New Covenant

1. The covenant is directed to Israel in the chapter. When we read the first part of the chapter we see Daniel mentioning a covenant concerning Israel which thoughout the ages has been confirmed to those of Israel who have obeyed and a curse to those which have departed. So why now would we expect that the next mention of a covenant is then different?

2. As noted in my other thread "cut off" thus does not apply the cross.

There are some problems with your thesis.


If the Abrahamic Covenant was "an everlasting covenant" (which it is), why would another covenant be necessary?
If the Abrahamic covenant is to be made again, why for only one week (verse 27)? Is is not an everlasting covenant?
The New Covenant that you mention is a covenant of Law, not the Abrahamic covenant of Promise. Galatians divides them by 430 years.
You have assumed Satan to show difficulties in others' arguments, but nearly no one thinks that the prince whose people destroyed the city is Satan. For it to be Satan, then all Romans must actually be of the same "people" as Satan. Satan is an angel. Much more, the grammar is clear; the prince is a future prince of the people who would destroy the city. As the only city mentioned in the whole of Chapter 9 (the context) is the "holy city" of "Daniel's people", it must mean Jerusalem. This makes the destroyers Romans, and the coming prince of that people a Roman Prince.

Vakeros
Dec 30th 2012, 05:17 PM
There are some problems with your thesis.


If the Abrahamic Covenant was "an everlasting covenant" (which it is), why would another covenant be necessary?
If the Abrahamic covenant is to be made again, why for only one week (verse 27)? Is is not an everlasting covenant?
The New Covenant that you mention is a covenant of Law, not the Abrahamic covenant of Promise. Galatians divides them by 430 years.
You have assumed Satan to show difficulties in others' arguments, but nearly no one thinks that the prince whose people destroyed the city is Satan. For it to be Satan, then all Romans must actually be of the same "people" as Satan. Satan is an angel. Much more, the grammar is clear; the prince is a future prince of the people who would destroy the city. As the only city mentioned in the whole of Chapter 9 (the context) is the "holy city" of "Daniel's people", it must mean Jerusalem. This makes the destroyers Romans, and the coming prince of that people a Roman Prince.


Good points, though I would add, the covenant is not made by God, but by the Prince to come. Also I don't see the destroyers as being ethnically Roman, but were part of the Roman Empire. Just as when Britain had an empire, the troops that liberated Jerusalem were Australians and not British or English.

ross3421
Dec 30th 2012, 09:31 PM
There are some problems with your thesis.

]If the Abrahamic Covenant was "an everlasting covenant" (which it is), why would another covenant be necessary?

Where is there another covenant? The covenant is being confirmed........


If the Abrahamic covenant is to be made again, why for only one week (verse 27)? Is is not an everlasting covenant?

The covenant is not being made again but confirmed. The confirmation is for one week.


The New Covenant that you mention is a covenant of Law, not the Abrahamic covenant of Promise. Galatians divides them by 430 years.

Lost me here a bit.......I am not speaking of a new covenant. The Mosaic law was the measure to the promise as when broken a prophet for the people needed to intervene.


As the only city mentioned in the whole of Chapter 9 (the context) is the "holy city" of "Daniel's people", it must mean Jerusalem. This makes the destroyers Romans, and the coming prince of that people a Roman Prince.


Babylon of Rev 17 is Jerusalem as well. The people of the prince (Messiah) is the army of God.

vinsight4u8
Jan 1st 2013, 09:33 PM
Doesn't this verse show that chapter 8 has to be considered when looking at Daniel 9:24-27?

Gabriel is talking to Daniel

Daniel 9:23
"...understand the matter, and consider the vision."

No vision is being given here.
Daniel spends the next verses just listening.

confirm the covenant

-Daniel 8 -Does it reveal a covenant? -treaty with others

8:1
"...a vision appeared..."

8:25
"...by peace shall destroy many..."


Daniel also was given this message by Gabriel because he wanted to understand the Jeremiah 25 prophecy. A Babylonian king has to rule their kingdom until seventy years are over. Daniel knew this had not yet come to pass.

Jeremiah 25:11-12

"And this whole land shall be a desolation...these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years."

Nebuchadnezzar to Darius the Mede was only about 66 years.

605 - 539 BC

v12
"And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation...the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations."

/This is why I think the man of sin will come from Iraq. Iraq still has several years left to rule the nations. In the days of Jeremiah, chapter 25 shows that a cup was taken to the nations to make them drink. This chapter is thus giving us the list of those nations that must serve Babylon's king. The Median kings are listed among the nations that must serve, so they too are to drink from the cup. This chapter shows the last king to drink is Sheshach/ Babylon.

I also don't understand why people aren't seeming to care that Daniel 9:26 and 9:27 both are set for two "determined" times. They are not to happen in the same moments. I can't see also why some won't leave a gap as to the 69th and 70th week, but they will split a huge gap into the final week.

vinsight4u8
Jan 1st 2013, 09:50 PM
Happy New Year to everybody!

9:11
"...the curse is poured out upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses..."

The curse is the yoke of iron from Deuteronomy 28:48/ as in Jeremiah 28:14 - Nebuchadnezzar. /Babylon

If Daniel thought that the seventy years were over, then why as a prophet of God didn't he just tell everybody to pack their bags, as it was about time for them to leave? In verse 19, Daniel asks God not to defer His pity on the city. This is because Daniel knew that they had not yet been in Babylon for the seventy years of Jermeiah 29:10, nor served kings of Babylon seventy years. What he wanted to know is how will the Jeremiah 25 prophecy unfold in the future. Gabriel was sent to help Daniel understand that the city would rebuilt by a commandment. The Messiah would come to this city after so many weeks more. Then in a time not counted as being part of the seventy weeks, the city and the sanctuary would be destroyed.

"determined"

"...unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

/So this part passes. The war ends.
The time of the city being desolate ends.

Move now to the final week of the seventy weeks.

A he comes on the scene.

"...he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation...determined..."

Consummation of what?
The consummation of the Babylonian king time to make their seventy years of ruling the nations.