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Watchman
Feb 1st 2013, 02:33 AM
In every account, people are baptized so that they can come into contact with the blood of Jesus. Baptism is essential to baptism. That is what the Scriptures teach.I've heard this for years, yet do not find it in scripture. Where in scripture is the teaching that one contacts the blood of Christ in water baptism?

Thanks,

Watchman :)

Dilligence
Feb 1st 2013, 03:02 AM
I've heard this for years, yet do not find it in scripture. Where in scripture is the teaching that one contacts the blood of Christ in water baptism?

Thanks,

Watchman :)

Hello, "someone from another thread" ;)

Romans 6:4 (KJV)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

As Christ was raised from the dead through the glorious strength of God to a new life, we were raised to walk no more in the sins that have been put off in baptism, but were raised [from the watery burial with death between us and the old life of sin] to walk in the new life in Christ. He is still showing why we cannot sin that grace may abound.

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

The putting off the body of the flesh or the true spiritual circumcision was effected by being buried with Him in baptism. This means that they were dead to sin through faith in Christ.

We were also raised with him in baptism. In this act the sins were removed, as by circumcision the flesh was cut off. The language is taken from the coming up out of the water which is associated with the fact of Christ's resurrection, which is referred to. Christ went down into the grave, but came up again.

So the believer disappears under the waters of baptism. This is a side not presented in circumcision. In baptism there is an exhibition of the fact that we are born anew. This new life we get in union with Christ. The working of God is displayed in raising Christ from the dead. It is to he taken in connection with the removal of sin which operated in Christ's death. Christ rose from the dead possessor of a new and endless life.

If we take as the object of our faith the working which raised Christ from the dead, we shall become sharers with him in the same new and endless life,
through faith in the working of God. They were both buried and raised with Christ in baptism, by the working of faith in God. Baptism means nothing without faith. It is only as faith recognizes a risen Savior that the act of baptism becomes of spiritual significance, and rising with Christ becomes an actual spiritual experience. who raised him from the dead. God's working is here set forth as the object of the believing, not as the cause.

The truth about baptism is that when we are baptized for the forgiveness of our sins, we are coming in contact, spiritually speaking, with the blood of Jesus Christ. In Ephesians 1:7 the Bible says, “In Him,” talking about Christ, “we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace.” It's through the precious blood of Jesus Christ that we can be forgiven, and it's at baptism that we are contacting the blood of Jesus Christ spiritually speaking. Colossians 1:14 says, “In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.”

markedward
Feb 1st 2013, 03:07 AM
Scripture does not say this.

The clearest exposition on the meaning of baptism (aside from 'repent and be baptized') is Romans 6, where Paul speaks of how baptism is communion with Jesus' death and resurrection, a symbol of our 'death to sin' in the present and resurrection in the future. A few other, briefer statements suggest baptism brings us into communion with the Church as a whole (since it is the 'body of Christ').

At no point is baptism said to bring us 'into contact with the blood of Jesus'.

But I would point out... unless I'm mistaken, this someone in another thread appears to be saying that baptism is necessary to 'come into contact with the blood of Jesus'. The quote doesn't actually say they come into contact with the blood at the time of​ baptism.

Dilligence
Feb 1st 2013, 03:18 AM
Scripture does not say this.

The clearest exposition on the meaning of baptism (aside from 'repent and be baptized') is Romans 6, where Paul speaks of how baptism is communion with Jesus' death and resurrection, a symbol of our 'death to sin' in the present and resurrection in the future. A few other, briefer statements suggest baptism brings us into communion with the Church as a whole (since it is the 'body of Christ').

At no point is baptism said to bring us 'into contact with the blood of Jesus'.

But I would point out... unless I'm mistaken, this someone in another thread appears to be saying that baptism is necessary to 'come into contact with the blood of Jesus'. The quote doesn't actually say they come into contact with the blood at the time of​ baptism.


Romans 6:3 (KJV)
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

By being "baptized into Christ" we become, as it were, one with Him; so whatever He did, we do. When He died, we died with Him. We are, then, dead to our former state. Burial always signifies existing death, as only the dead are literally buried. When people yield themselves to obey the gospel of Christ, they die to sin, cease to love and practice sin, and, are dead to sin when buried with Christ in baptism.

Christ died for our sins and when dead was buried in the grave. So we are buried in baptism just as Christ was buried in the grave. We are buried with Christ into a fixed state of death to sin and at the same time into a state of life in relation to Christ. So the death spoken of is death to sin, a state of relationship in which we are dead to our former lives of sin, as Christ was forever dead to his former life of suffering from the moment He died on the cross.

As Christ arose to a new life, never more to die, so Christians, when raised from a watery grave, should shun lives of sin. He says: "Even so reckon ye your selves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus." (Verse 11 (http://www.crossbooks.com/verse.asp?ref=Ro+6%3A11).) And while Christians are to continue in a state of death to sin, they must also continue in a state of life to Christ.

markedward
Feb 1st 2013, 08:26 AM
Yeah...

I agree with all of that, I think. But I don't see where it says baptism means 'coming into contact with the blood of Jesus'.

Watchman
Feb 1st 2013, 08:05 PM
I'll add my :2cents: later today, or tomorrow. I want to choose my words prayerfully and carefully, though. Some here have gotten the idea that I despise the Churches of Christ. I do not. I do passionately disagree with some of their teachings, but I love the people. They are my sisters and brothers in Christ. 'Nuf said. I'll be back later.

W :)

Watchman
Feb 2nd 2013, 12:24 AM
Actually, the only thing I might add to what has already been written is this: yes, we are cleansed by the blood of Christ. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. No, we don't ever 'contact' His blood in water baptism. This is not taught in scripture. I've heard it taught by one group only, but that doesn't mean it isn't taught by anyone else.

Tony Cross
Feb 2nd 2013, 04:41 AM
Actually, the only thing I might add to what has already been written is this: yes, we are cleansed by the blood of Christ. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. No, we don't ever 'contact' His blood in water baptism. This is not taught in scripture. I've heard it taught by one group only, but that doesn't mean it isn't taught by anyone else.

Hey Andy, I know you're thrilled to see me back, once again. :).

Would you not agree that you can't separate Christ from his blood? Gal. 3;26-27 says we put on Christ in baptism. Rom. 6:3-4 mentions being buried with him in baptism. If we are buried with him and put him on in baptism how can that not include His blood?

TomH
Feb 2nd 2013, 05:15 AM
Put on Christ spiritually. Show me the blood of the spirit, we'll talk.
Putting on Christ, is quite different than putting on the BODY of Christ.
Who is Jesus Tony?
God incarnate. The body of man, Spirit of God.
When we put on Christ, spiritually, no body, no blood.
It goes hand in glove with the other catch phrases being tossed around in this thread so casually.
Death, burial and resurrection.Show me the verse that has these three connected.

Watery grave is my favorite.

Jesus was not buried at sea. He wasn't even buried, He was entombed, above ground.

He was entombed physically, buried Spiritually.
Still, no watery grave. Dry cave.

You want a physical baptism for receiving the Holy Spirit? Do it in a DRY cave.

Taking on Christ is taking on Christ the Son, not Christ the man.

Tony Cross
Feb 2nd 2013, 05:59 AM
Put on Christ spiritually. Show me the blood of the spirit, we'll talk.

Putting on Christ, is quite different than putting on the BODY of Christ.

Of course it's spiritual. You can't physically contact the blood nor can you physically contact the body. That's what Gal. 3:26-27 is all about. When we submit to baptism, we put Him on Spiritually.


Who is Jesus Tony?

God incarnate. The body of man, Spirit of God.

OK


When we put on Christ, spiritually, no body, no blood.

I answered this above. See also Dillegence's comments above on this subject.



Death, burial and resurrection.
Show me the verse that has these three connected.

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:



Watery grave is my favorite.
Jesus was not buried at sea. He wasn't even buried, He was entombed, above ground.

You want a physical baptism for receiving the Holy Spirit? Do it in a DRY cave.

Taking on Christ is taking on Christ the Son, not Christ the man.

I really believe you are missing the point here Tom, or possibly I'm missing your point.

TomH
Feb 2nd 2013, 06:11 AM
Of course it's spiritual. You can't physically contact the blood nor can you physically contact the body. That's what Gal. 3:26-27 is all about. When we submit to baptism, we put Him on Spiritually.

Okay Tony, you moonwalk better than Michael Jackson.

Let's go back to your post #8
Would you not agree that you can't separate Christ from his blood? Gal. 3;26-27 says we put on Christ in baptism. Rom. 6:3-4 mentions being buried with him in baptism. If we are buried with him and put him on in baptism how can that not include His blood?

Dilligence
Feb 2nd 2013, 07:03 AM
I think I posted this before but when we are baptized we are in direct connection with Jesus' death. Jesus died a bloody death on the cross. We were baptized into his death to sin, became partakers of his death, and so died to sin as he did, and, as members of the body of Christ, we cannot live in sin. Romans 6:3-4

The union with Christ, into which we enter by baptism, is more closely defined as union with his death. This is clearly stated in the following words: "The death that he died to sin once." (6:10.) His death is viewed as the final and complete deliverance from a life, in which, for our sakes, he had been subject to conditions imposed by our sins, and this sense exactly corresponds with the thought which led to the mention of Christ's death. By being "baptized into Christ" we become, as it were, one with him. So whatever he did, we do.

When he died, we died with him. We are, then, dead to our former state. Burial always signifies existing death, as only the dead are literally buried. Christ died for our sins and when dead was buried in the grave. So we are buried in baptism just as Christ was buried in the grave. We are buried with Christ into a fixed state of death to sin and at the same time into a state of life in relation to Christ. So the death spoken of is death to sin, a state of relationship in which we are dead to our former lives of sin, as Christ was forever dead to his former life of suffering from the moment he died on the cross. As Christ arose to a new life, never more to die, so Christians, when raised from a watery grave, should shun lives of sin. He says: "Even so reckon ye your selves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus." (Verse 11.)

Tony Cross
Feb 2nd 2013, 07:15 AM
Okay Tony, you moonwalk better than Michael Jackson.

Good one Tom, I'll have to try that one on my wife sometime.

BroRog
Feb 2nd 2013, 07:29 AM
Hello, "someone from another thread" ;)

Romans 6:4 (KJV)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

As Christ was raised from the dead through the glorious strength of God to a new life, we were raised to walk no more in the sins that have been put off in baptism, but were raised [from the watery burial with death between us and the old life of sin] to walk in the new life in Christ. He is still showing why we cannot sin that grace may abound.

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

The putting off the body of the flesh or the true spiritual circumcision was effected by being buried with Him in baptism. This means that they were dead to sin through faith in Christ.

We were also raised with him in baptism. In this act the sins were removed, as by circumcision the flesh was cut off. The language is taken from the coming up out of the water which is associated with the fact of Christ's resurrection, which is referred to. Christ went down into the grave, but came up again.

So the believer disappears under the waters of baptism. This is a side not presented in circumcision. In baptism there is an exhibition of the fact that we are born anew. This new life we get in union with Christ. The working of God is displayed in raising Christ from the dead. It is to he taken in connection with the removal of sin which operated in Christ's death. Christ rose from the dead possessor of a new and endless life.

If we take as the object of our faith the working which raised Christ from the dead, we shall become sharers with him in the same new and endless life,
through faith in the working of God. They were both buried and raised with Christ in baptism, by the working of faith in God. Baptism means nothing without faith. It is only as faith recognizes a risen Savior that the act of baptism becomes of spiritual significance, and rising with Christ becomes an actual spiritual experience. who raised him from the dead. God's working is here set forth as the object of the believing, not as the cause.

The truth about baptism is that when we are baptized for the forgiveness of our sins, we are coming in contact, spiritually speaking, with the blood of Jesus Christ. In Ephesians 1:7 the Bible says, “In Him,” talking about Christ, “we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace.” It's through the precious blood of Jesus Christ that we can be forgiven, and it's at baptism that we are contacting the blood of Jesus Christ spiritually speaking. Colossians 1:14 says, “In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.”I disagree very much with this interpretation of Romans 6. Where do people come up with these interpretations? I'll get back to this later.

TomH
Feb 2nd 2013, 04:57 PM
Two questions I have for the water baptism people.
You say it's following In the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

John 19:29-31
New International Version (NIV)
29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.


John 13:32-34
New International Version (NIV)
32 If God is glorified in him,[a] God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once.

33 “My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.

34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

One, Jesus gave up His Spirit on the cross. Where did His Spirit go?
The body of Christ was removed from the cross.
Who was in contact with His body and His blood?

Can we follow Jesus in death? Most certainly. It is assigned to man to die once.

Jesus also told His disciples that where He was going, they could not follow.

Here's where your water baptism gets messy.

Jesus' body was entombed. (not buried) He gave up His Spirit (His Spirit was buried, where we cannot follow)

Jesus' body remained above ground in a dark cave. (some symbolism there, at least fit me)

After three days, His Spirit returned to the body in the cave. (from a place we could no follow)

He entered His body, an for a lack of a better term, jump started it, (think Lazarus) Jesus was alive again, both physically AND Spiritually. (again, think REBORN)

So, what can we associate ourselves with with His Spiritual burial?
Jesus died for the sins of the world. He took our sins with Him, to the place we cannot follow to forever be buried and forgotten. Jesus conquered death. He returned free of the sins He died for. Was resurrected SIN FREE.

We, as Christians follow Jesus. The sequence of events vary a little.
jesus' body saw no decay when His body was entombed. But we will receive NEW bodies upon OUR resurrection. So yes, same, same.

We ARE reborn spiritually, as Jesus was from His resurrection.
When we are, through faith, born again, we receive Jesus' baptism of the Holy Spirit.

So, when we repent (turn away from our sins) He is fair and just to forgive us our sins (cleans, or wash us of our sins) symbolically reenacted by water baptism, and baptizes us with the Holy Spirit. Again, REENACTED SYMBOLICALLY, by some faith based churches, with ANOTHER water baptism.

Of course the must ignore the fact that Jesus said, "Where I go, you cannot follow."

Folks, use all the symbolism and reenactment you want, but recognize, and identify it for what it is. Physical symbolism of Spiritual actions.

"Watery grave"? No thank you!

Follow His commandment?
Yes I did. Spiritually. And Spiritually, He fulfilled His promise.

BroRog
Feb 2nd 2013, 05:34 PM
I've heard this for years, yet do not find it in scripture. Where in scripture is the teaching that one contacts the blood of Christ in water baptism?

Thanks,

Watchman :)I have never heard this at all.

TomH
Feb 2nd 2013, 05:43 PM
I have never heard this at all.

I've never heard it but that exact way either, but hey BroRog, you know we've led a sheltered life.;)

BroRog
Feb 2nd 2013, 07:12 PM
I've never heard it but that exact way either, but hey BroRog, you know we've led a sheltered life.;)In this case, the proper interpretation of Romans 6 must address the question Paul asked. "6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?" Contacting the blood of Christ isn't the answer to that question.

Watchman
Feb 2nd 2013, 07:31 PM
Hey Andy, I know you're thrilled to see me back, once again. :).

Would you not agree that you can't separate Christ from his blood? Gal. 3;26-27 says we put on Christ in baptism. Rom. 6:3-4 mentions being buried with him in baptism. If we are buried with him and put him on in baptism how can that not include His blood?
Hey Tony,

No worries...I enjoy discussion with you. Christ's shed blood paid the wages for our sins. My only concern is the teaching that we must contact His blood to be washed clean and that we contact it in the baptismal waters. We were, in truth, crucified with Him and our burial proclaims the death of our old man.

blessings,

Andy :)

Dilligence
Feb 3rd 2013, 09:30 AM
Two questions I have for the water baptism people.
You say it's following In the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

John 19:29-31
New International Version (NIV)
29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.


John 13:32-34
New International Version (NIV)
32 If God is glorified in him,[a] God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once.

33 “My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.

34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

One, Jesus gave up His Spirit on the cross. Where did His Spirit go?
The body of Christ was removed from the cross.
Who was in contact with His body and His blood?

Can we follow Jesus in death? Most certainly. It is assigned to man to die once.

Jesus also told His disciples that where He was going, they could not follow.

Here's where your water baptism gets messy.

Jesus' body was entombed. (not buried) He gave up His Spirit (His Spirit was buried, where we cannot follow)

Jesus' body remained above ground in a dark cave. (some symbolism there, at least fit me)

After three days, His Spirit returned to the body in the cave. (from a place we could no follow)

He entered His body, an for a lack of a better term, jump started it, (think Lazarus) Jesus was alive again, both physically AND Spiritually. (again, think REBORN)

So, what can we associate ourselves with with His Spiritual burial?
Jesus died for the sins of the world. He took our sins with Him, to the place we cannot follow to forever be buried and forgotten. Jesus conquered death. He returned free of the sins He died for. Was resurrected SIN FREE.

We, as Christians follow Jesus. The sequence of events vary a little.
jesus' body saw no decay when His body was entombed. But we will receive NEW bodies upon OUR resurrection. So yes, same, same.

We ARE reborn spiritually, as Jesus was from His resurrection.
When we are, through faith, born again, we receive Jesus' baptism of the Holy Spirit.

So, when we repent (turn away from our sins) He is fair and just to forgive us our sins (cleans, or wash us of our sins) symbolically reenacted by water baptism, and baptizes us with the Holy Spirit. Again, REENACTED SYMBOLICALLY, by some faith based churches, with ANOTHER water baptism.

Of course the must ignore the fact that Jesus said, "Where I go, you cannot follow."

Folks, use all the symbolism and reenactment you want, but recognize, and identify it for what it is. Physical symbolism of Spiritual actions.

"Watery grave"? No thank you!

Follow His commandment?
Yes I did. Spiritually. And Spiritually, He fulfilled His promise.

Explain to me why Jesus, the only sinless man to walk the earth was baptized? What was He trying to show us?

Watchman
Feb 3rd 2013, 01:24 PM
Explain to me why Jesus, the only sinless man to walk the earth was baptized? What was He trying to show us?
John the baptist descended from Levi...he was a levitical priest. As such he was qualified to do the required washing of the sacrifices before they were offered. He washed Jesus the Lamb before He was offered in accordance with the Law to fulfill all righteousness. The Law was righteous and Jesus had to be washed to fulfill it.

Watchman :)

Dilligence
Feb 3rd 2013, 02:11 PM
John the baptist descended from Levi...he was a levitical priest. As such he was qualified to do the required washing of the sacrifices before they were offered. He washed Jesus the Lamb before He was offered in accordance with the Law to fulfill all righteousness. The Law was righteous and Jesus had to be washed to fulfill it.

Watchman :)


Matthew 3:13-15 (KJV)

Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

John at first did not want to baptize Jesus. He felt that it was not in order for him to baptize Jesus, he recognized the superiority of Jesus and his own inferiority.He could not understand why the inferior or the less should administer baptism to his superior or the greater. John was conscientious, he was very firm in opposing baptizing Jesus. John knew the purpose of his baptism, he knew that all who had been baptized of him needed to be baptized, but he did not recognize in Jesus anything that would lead him to believe that Jesus needed to be baptized of him.

I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? John says that he has far greater need of being baptized of Jesus than Jesus does of being baptized of him. This means that John had some knowledge of who Jesus was.

But Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it now. This means permit it now. Jesus asks that John let him take the place of the less or the inferior for the present. The baptism of Jesus was a duty, not only of Jesus, but it was also the duty of John to baptize Jesus. Since it was the duty of John to baptize Jesus, Jesus is ready to help John do his duty. There is a truth in the objection that John made, but John is to do his duty.

There are two things to look at regarding baptism. First, it was an act in connection with the remission of sin, and an act of obedience to a positive command of God. Jesus had no sin to be forgiven, but he must obey the command of God. Though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which He suffered" (Heb. 5:8); Jesus here began to learn obedience to God's will.

It becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Jesus said to John that it becometh "us" to fulfill the righteousness of God. John had a part in the preparation of the people for the coming of Jesus, and also a part in announcing and pointing out Jesus as the Messiah. John thought it would be presumption on his part to baptize Jesus and an unworthy condescension on the part of Jesus to submit to his baptism, but Jesus said to John that it is appropriate in both John and Jesus to perform this act.

Nothing must be left undone that would honor God and assist Jesus in beginning and carrying on his ministry. As John's baptism was not "from men" but "from heaven" (Matt. 21:25; John 1:33), it was to be that Jesus was to receive the baptism of John, and John to do it. It was appropriate that Jesus should allow John by accepting the baptism of John. John saw the meaning of Jesus' words and baptized him. Some think since John baptized Jesus at Jesus' command that Jesus was really the active person in the baptism, it was actually John.

TomH
Feb 3rd 2013, 04:20 PM
Explain to me why Jesus, the only sinless man to walk the earth was baptized? What was He trying to show us?


To fulfill the law. It was required that all Jews be baptized. Jesus fulfilled the law.

That is the reason for the exchange between John the Baptist and Jesus, and Jesus tod John to allow it this once.

Watchman
Feb 3rd 2013, 06:31 PM
To fulfill the law. It was required that all Jews be baptized. Jesus fulfilled the law.

That is the reason for the exchange between John the Baptist and Jesus, and Jesus tod John to allow it this once.
Exactly.

blessings,

W :)

Dilligence
Feb 3rd 2013, 06:39 PM
To fulfill the law. It was required that all Jews be baptized. Jesus fulfilled the law.

That is the reason for the exchange between John the Baptist and Jesus, and Jesus tod John to allow it this once.

Is that your opinion or biblical...if it is biblical please show us.

TomH
Feb 3rd 2013, 06:41 PM
Is that your opinion or biblical...if it is biblical please show us.


Matthew 3:13-15
New International Version (NIV)
The Baptism of Jesus

13*Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14*But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

15*Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

Dilligence
Feb 3rd 2013, 06:45 PM
Matthew 3:13-15
New International Version (NIV)
The Baptism of Jesus

13*Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14*But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

15*Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

The NIV has a twisted translation of this scripture....I do not follow the NIV for that reason.

Matthew 3:13-15 (KJV)
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

TomH
Feb 3rd 2013, 06:49 PM
And your point is what exactly?
It says the same thing.

To fulfill all righteousness. Fulfill the law.

Dilligence
Feb 3rd 2013, 06:50 PM
And your point is what exactly?
It says the same thing.

To fulfill all righteousness. Fulfill the law.

What law are you referring to? In the Bible....

Dilligence
Feb 3rd 2013, 06:55 PM
He came to John "to be baptized of him." Why should Jesus, the sinless one, come to John to be baptized?

Matthew expresses clearly the purpose of Jesus in coming to John, it was "to be baptized of him"; we know that Jesus did not come to be baptized from a feeling of personal sinfulness, neither because of his personal connection with an impure people, or for the purpose of showing that there was no incompatibility between his life and the life of others, or merely to elicit the divine declaration that he was the Son of God, or to confirm the faith of others in him, neither was it to sanction the baptism of John as having been authorized of God. It was the will of God for him to be baptized, and he came to do the will of God. (Heb. 10:7.)

Hebrews 10:7 (KJV)

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

I do not see a law here, but obedience to do the will of His Father.

Vhayes
Feb 3rd 2013, 07:10 PM
Hebrews 10
7 - “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(In the scroll of the book it is written of Me)
To do Your will, O God.’”
8 - After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law),
9 - then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second.
10 - By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Dilligence
Feb 3rd 2013, 07:16 PM
Hebrews 10:10 (KJV)
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

From this scripture it is taken in connection with what precedes, it is thing taken out of the way, embracing the Old Covenant with all its rites and ceremonies, was not the will of God, but that the thing established and ratified by the sacrifice of Christ, is the will of God.

"He taketh away the first," which was not the will of God; "that he may establish the second," which is the will of God. The term "will" as used here, denotes God's redeeming purpose, conceived before the foundation of the world but eventually developed in the Holy Scriptures, and finally ratified by the atoning blood of the Lord Jesus.

In the accomplishing of this will, it does the whole Gospel plan of salvation, "we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

No Law Involved but establishing the Will of God.

Vhayes
Feb 3rd 2013, 07:22 PM
Sacrifices needed washed before they were "clean".

The Jewish culture is and was filled with ritual washings, from dishes and cookware (brushes and clothes used for dairy cannot be used for meat) to women ritually washing in a community mikvah after their monthly cycle to sacrifices being washed.

Even though Jesus was perfect in all ways, He needed to be ritually "clean" to be a perfect sacrifice according to the Law of Moses and the Levitical priesthood.

Dilligence
Feb 3rd 2013, 07:38 PM
Sacrifices needed washed before they were "clean".

The Jewish culture is and was filled with ritual washings, from dishes and cookware (brushes and clothes used for dairy cannot be used for meat) to women ritually washing in a community mikvah after their monthly cycle to sacrifices being washed.

Even though Jesus was perfect in all ways, He needed to be ritually "clean" to be a perfect sacrifice according to the Law of Moses and the Levitical priesthood.

I would like to agree with you but I need scripture to back this up...I have never heard of Jesus being ritually clean before the Jews killed him.

Vhayes
Feb 3rd 2013, 07:42 PM
I would like to agree with you but I need scripture to back this up...I have never heard of Jesus being ritually clean before the Jews killed him.

That was his "baptism". The ritual washing.

Dilligence
Feb 3rd 2013, 08:21 PM
That was his "baptism". The ritual washing.

I do not recall "washing" a ritual...can you provide scripture for this please. I have never heard of this "ritual."

Vhayes
Feb 3rd 2013, 08:25 PM
Matthew 3
14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?”
15 But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he *permitted Him.

BroRog
Feb 3rd 2013, 09:25 PM
There is nothing mystical or spiritual about baptism. It's just a symbolic act. Jesus didn't get into the water to get clean. He got into the water for two reasons: 1) he wanted to side with John against the Pharisees, and 2) the Father had told John to expect this meeting from the Messiah, which was to be a sign indicating the identity of the Messiah.

TomH
Feb 3rd 2013, 09:43 PM
I would like to agree with you but I need scripture to back this up...I have never heard of Jesus being ritually clean before the Jews killed him.


You have now.;)

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 01:02 AM
I would like to agree with you but I need scripture to back this up...I have never heard of Jesus being ritually clean before the Jews killed him.



You have now.;)

Where? I have seen no quoted scripture of this so called washing, only opinion?

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 01:10 AM
Matthew 3
14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?”
15 But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he *permitted Him.
Where do you get "fulfill all righteousness" means to clean up the sacrifice? The baptism of John was a command from God brought not from the Mosaic Law but from John the Baptizer (the forerunner of Jesus) and since it was a command, even though he had no sin to remit, he had to obey this command to continue being sinless or "fulfilling all righteousness".

washing ritual of Jesus before crucifix? some will go to no end to get out of water baptism...

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 01:12 AM
Where do you get "fulfill all righteousness" means to clean up the sacrifice? The baptism of John was a command from God brought not from the Mosaic Law but from John the Baptizer (the forerunner of Jesus) and since it was a command, even though he had no sin to remit, he had to obey this command to continue being sinless or "fulfilling all righteousness".

washing ritual of Jesus before crucifix? some will go to no end to get out of water baptism...
EDIT EDIT EDIT ____ XXXXXX_______...not trying to get out of water baptism. If I was, I wouldn't have ever been baptized. I do, though, keep it in its proper place and don't try to superimpose regeneration onto it.

W :)

amazzin
Feb 4th 2013, 01:14 AM
EDIT EDIT EDIT ____ XXXXXX_______...not trying to get out of water baptism. If I was, I wouldn't have ever been baptized. I do, though, keep it in its proper place and don't try to superimpose regeneration onto it.

W :)

disagree if you must but please keep it in the same manner in which you would like to be spoken

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 01:18 AM
EDIT EDIT EDIT ____ XXXXXX_______...not trying to get out of water baptism. If I was, I wouldn't have ever been baptized. I do, though, keep it in its proper place and don't try to superimpose regeneration onto it.

W :)

I don't have to go back to far in any thread dealing with baptism to find someone that thinks water baptism is not necessary for salvation...

Place it where you may, but nobody is "saved" until they do it, and do it for the right reasons... (and I do know how you feel about 1 Pet 3:21 but that does not change it being of a truth)

amazzin
Feb 4th 2013, 01:20 AM
I don't have to go back to far in any thread dealing with baptism to find someone that thinks water baptism is not necessary for salvation...

Place it where you may, but nobody is "saved" until they do it, and do it for the right reasons...

rrowell

Just so you know many of us disagree with you so please don't take the silence as meaning we agree. We've been down this road many times and frankly opinions have seldom changed

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 01:26 AM
rrowell

Just so you know many of us disagree with you so please don't take the silence as meaning we agree. We've been down this road many times and frankly opinions have seldom changed

;) I know, I said in an earlier post I don't have to go far down any thread to find posts on baptism where there are those who "disagree with" me... and that's fine, that's debate, the object is not to win a debate, but to find the truth... and the truth is in the scripture and not found in opinion and non biblical rituals or traditions of men....

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 01:43 AM
;) I know, I said in an earlier post I don't have to go far down any thread to find posts on baptism where there are those who "disagree with" me... and that's fine, that's debate, the object is not to win a debate, but to find the truth... and the truth is in the scripture and not found in opinion and non biblical rituals or traditions of men....
I dislike the traditions of men...especially when they claim to be scriptural and are not. You are painting with too wide a brush with your remarks about folks trying to get out of water baptism.

Watchman :)

RogerW
Feb 4th 2013, 01:56 AM
I've heard this for years, yet do not find it in scripture. Where in scripture is the teaching that one contacts the blood of Christ in water baptism?

Thanks,

Watchman :)

Hmmm...I've never heard of this doctrine either, but I wonder if it has something to do with this passage in the Revelation:

Re*1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

"Wash" = cleanse; "Baptism" = wash??? Could be:dunno:

blessings & peace

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 02:01 AM
I know of only one group that teaches this, but there may be others. It isn't scriptural. I agree that there is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood, and I agree that baptism can be called washing...but it is quite a stretch to say we contact the blood of Christ in the baptismal waters.

blessings,

Watchman :)

RogerW
Feb 4th 2013, 02:03 AM
I know of only one group that teaches this, but there may be others. It isn't scriptural. I agree that there is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood, and I agree that baptism can be called washing...but it is quite a stretch to say we contact the blood of Christ in the baptismal waters.

blessings,

Watchman :)

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 02:08 AM
You'd think those who argue this pov would also believe in transubstantiation--the logic is similar...but let's not jump off into that topic! :no:

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 02:12 AM
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


I know of only one group that teaches this, but there may be others. It isn't scriptural. I agree that there is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood, and I agree that baptism can be called washing...but it is quite a stretch to say we contact the blood of Christ in the baptismal waters.

blessings,

Watchman :)

How can these both be true?

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Matthew 26:28 (KJV)
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

It is found here:

Romans 6:3-4 (KJV)
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

RogerW
Feb 4th 2013, 02:29 AM
How can these both be true?

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 26:28 (KJV)
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

It is found here:

Romans 6:3-4 (KJV)
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Baptism in water will get one wet, and is a sign that identifies us as being united to Christ outwardly or unto repentance. However the baptism that saves is not the washing of regular water, but the baptism through which Christ baptizes; i.e. baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Mt*3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mr*1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
Mr*1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Lu*3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Lu*3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Ac*1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Ac*2:1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Ac*2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Ac*2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Ac*2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Ac*2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Ac*2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 02:45 AM
Baptism in water will get one wet, and is a sign that identifies us as being united to Christ outwardly or unto repentance. However the baptism that saves is not the washing of regular water, but the baptism through which Christ baptizes; i.e. baptism of the Holy Spirit.

You have absolutely no scripture to support the "outward showing of an inward faith" or however those that believe it say it...

And there is not one conversion you can point out in scripture that anyone has been baptized "with" the holy spirit only and "saved", in fact, the Apostles and the house of Cornelius are the only recording of "Holy Spirit Baptism", and both instances were the fulfilling of the prophecy of Joel, once the prophecy was fulfilled then the baptism "with" the Holy Spirit is not ever shown in scripture to be performed again. not one...

and even Apostles and house of Cornelius were water baptized.

Again, there is no scriptural proof of anyone being "saved" by "baptism of the Holy Spirit" and not being water baptized...

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 03:04 AM
You have absolutely no scripture to support the "outward showing of an inward faith" or however those that believe it say it...

And there is not one conversion you can point out in scripture that anyone has been baptized "with" the holy spirit only and "saved", in fact, the Apostles and the house of Cornelius are the only recording of "Holy Spirit Baptism", and both instances were the fulfilling of the prophecy of Joel, once the prophecy was fulfilled then the baptism "with" the Holy Spirit is not ever shown in scripture to be performed again. not one...

and even Apostles and house of Cornelius were water baptized.

Again, there is no scriptural proof of anyone being "saved" by "baptism of the Holy Spirit" and not being water baptized...
Nonsense! By one Spirit we are baptized into one body. Nowhere in scripture does it say the prophecy of Joel would be fulfilled by 2 instances...that is eisegetic speculation, nothing more.

Watchman :)

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 03:06 AM
Now. Back to the topic of contacting the blood of Jesus, please. If you want to argue about other stuff, start another thread.

.................................................. .................:OFFT:

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 03:21 AM
Nonsense! By one Spirit we are baptized into one body. Nowhere in scripture does it say the prophecy of Joel would be fulfilled by 2 instances...that is eisegetic speculation, nothing more.

Watchman :)

Here we have the Jew:

Acts 2:2-4 (KJV)
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This is affirmed by what Peter said here:

Acts 2:16-17 (KJV)
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:




And here we have the Greek:

Acts 10:44-45 (KJV)
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now the spirit was "poured out" heavy emphases on the "poured out" as this is a submersion or covering of the spirit (aka baptizo) on both the Jew and the Greek, prophecy fulfilled, no longer required... Done...

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 03:22 AM
If you desire to talk about Spirit baptism, please start your own thread and don't hijack this one.

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 03:22 AM
Now. Back to the topic of contacting the blood of Jesus, please. If you want to argue about other stuff, start another thread.

.................................................. .................:OFFT:

It is not off topic, when baptism is the way one comes in contact with the blood of Jesus Christ.

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 03:25 AM
It is not off topic, when baptism is the way one comes in contact with the blood of Jesus Christ.
Yes, it is off topic. Spirit baptism is not the topic of this thread...but it is the topic of a new one.

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 03:27 AM
Yes, it is off topic. Spirit baptism is not the topic of this thread...but it is the topic of a new one.
Your correct, baptism of the Holy Spirit is off topic, I said water baptism is how one comes in contact with the cleansing blood of Christ, it is you or others that keep bringing up baptism of the Holy Spirit...

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 03:28 AM
It is on another thread now. Besides, you have yet to prove (beyond your own opinion) that the blood of Christ is contacted in the waters of baptism. You've cited some passages that do not prove your point at all.

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 03:33 AM
It is on another thread now. Besides, you have yet to prove (beyond your own opinion) that the blood of Christ is contacted in the waters of baptism. You've cited some passages that do not prove your point at all.

I answered this question, now let me hear your answer:

in regard to remission of sins, how can these both be true?

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 26:28 (KJV)
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 03:36 AM
I answered this question, now let me hear your answer:

in regard to remission of sins, how can these both be true?

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 26:28 (KJV)
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
They are both true...and they do NOT prove your position. You have to superimpose your preconceived notion of contacting the blood AND you have to turn the water into His blood for that to be true. Scripture simply doesn't teach contact with Christ's blood. It was shed and that paid the price for our sins. Reading contacting the blood of Christ into those two passages is eisegesis...at best.

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 03:49 AM
They are both true...and they do NOT prove your position. You have to superimpose your preconceived notion of contacting the blood AND you have to turn the water into His blood for that to be true. Scripture simply doesn't teach contact with Christ's blood. It was shed and that paid the price for our sins. Reading contacting the blood of Christ into those two passages is eisegesis...at best.
It is obvious that redemption is found only in the blood of Christ. (Eph. 1:7; Col. 1: 14.)

Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 1:14 (KJV)
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Hence: no one can be saved apart from the blood of Christ. It must also be noted that “redemption through His blood” is gained “in Christ.” The Bible clearly states that as redemption is in Christ so, salvation, justification, all spiritual blessings and all promises are in Christ. (2 Tim. 2:10; Eph. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:20.) It is therefore obvious that no one can be saved by the blood of Christ out of Christ.

so this takes us back to how we get "into Christ" and Paul tells us here:

Galatians 3:27 (KJV)
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Romans 6:3-4 (KJV)
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Water Baptism is how we come in contact with the saving blood of Christ

Dilligence
Feb 4th 2013, 03:51 AM
Acts 20:28 teaches that it is the blood of Christ by which the church was purchased, by which we have been purchased. We serve a living Savior. Jesus didn't only come to this earth and die, but He was buried and He was resurrected just as the prophets prophesied of old.

Ephesians 1:7 the Bible says that it is “in Him that we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace.” But we must contact the blood of Jesus Christ. In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, the Bible says, “For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The Bible says that the Lord does not want us to be lost. The Lord wants us to be saved. 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:4-6, the Lord wants us to be saved. He didn't appoint us to wrath. But instead to appoint us to obtain salvation. But to obtain salvation means we've got to go and get it. Yes, it's free and Jesus paid the price, but we have to go and accept it. And we must contact the blood of Jesus Christ. In Revelation 1:5 the Bible says that “from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood.”

The Bible says that it was Jesus Christ who took us and washed us from our sins where? In His own blood. And when did this happen? This happens when we are baptized in water for the forgiveness of our sins. Spiritually speaking, we are having our sins cleansed. The blood of Jesus Christ when we are baptized in water for the forgiveness of sins.

John 19:34, when Jesus was hanging on that cross, He had already been dead for a little while the soldier came and pierced His side, and two elements came out. And those elements were blood and water. And in order to come in contact with the blood, we have to go through the water. Those are the two elements that came out of the body of Christ, and those are the two elements we have to come in contact with to get into the body of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:27, which is why 1 Peter 3:21 teaches us that baptism saves us, because spiritually speaking we are being obedient and coming in contact with the blood of Christ. In Acts 22:16 the question was asked, “Why are you waiting? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” If you have yet to obey the truth; if you don't have Jesus as your Savior, you need to follow Him; you need to obey Him.

TomH
Feb 4th 2013, 03:52 AM
Your correct, baptism of the Holy Spirit is off topic, I said water baptism is how one comes in contact with the cleansing blood of Christ, it is you or others that keep bringing up baptism of the Holy Spirit...


Can you tell me the difference in these two verses?
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,



Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 03:57 AM
It is obvious that redemption is found only in the blood of Christ. (Eph. 1:7; Col. 1: 14.)

Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 1:14 (KJV)
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Hence: no one can be saved apart from the blood of Christ. It must also be noted that “redemption through His blood” is gained “in Christ.” The Bible clearly states that as redemption is in Christ so, salvation, justification, all spiritual blessings and all promises are in Christ. (2 Tim. 2:10; Eph. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:20.) It is therefore obvious that no one can be saved by the blood of Christ out of Christ.

so this takes us back to how we get "into Christ" and Paul tells us here:

Galatians 3:27 (KJV)
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Romans 6:3-4 (KJV)
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Water Baptism is how we come in contact with the saving blood of Christ
Once again, no contact with His blood proven. It is superimposed...

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 03:58 AM
Can you tell me the difference in these two verses?
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Here the apostles were commissioned.



Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Here commenced what they were commissioned to do in Matthew 28:19.

water baptism is for the remission of sins, so there is no difference other than the his disciples being told what to do, and doing it.

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 04:07 AM
Once again, no contact with His blood proven. It is superimposed...

Please give me more than opinion here, all I see is opinion, one cannot come into contact with the saving blood of Christ without being "in Christ" therefore one comes in contact with the saving blood when one is "in Christ" and now all you and I have to come to agreement on is how one does that, I showed scripture that water baptism is what puts one "in Christ" now you have to show me more than opinion (with scripture) another way to get "in Christ" to contact that saving blood?

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 04:18 AM
Acts 20:28 teaches that it is the blood of Christ by which the church was purchased, by which we have been purchased. We serve a living Savior. Jesus didn't only come to this earth and die, but He was buried and He was resurrected just as the prophets prophesied of old.
Agreed.


Ephesians 1:7 the Bible says that it is “in Him that we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace.” But we must contact the blood of Jesus Christ. In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, the Bible says, “For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The Bible says that the Lord does not want us to be lost. The Lord wants us to be saved. 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:4-6, the Lord wants us to be saved. He didn't appoint us to wrath. But instead to appoint us to obtain salvation.
Agreed.

But to obtain salvation means we've got to go and get it. Yes, it's free and Jesus paid the price, but we have to go and accept it.
poor wording...seems contradictory because no one comes to Christ unless the Father draws them.

And we must contact the blood of Jesus Christ. In Revelation 1:5 the Bible says that “from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood.”
That is what Revelation 1:5 says, and you are taking that verse and presupposing contact.


The Bible says that it was Jesus Christ who took us and washed us from our sins where? In His own blood. And when did this happen? This happens when we are baptized in water for the forgiveness of our sins. Spiritually speaking, we are having our sins cleansed. The blood of Jesus Christ when we are baptized in water for the forgiveness of sins.
Again, your use of 'spiritually speaking' makes no sense. Also, your assumption of blood contact in baptism is simply being inserted.


John 19:34, when Jesus was hanging on that cross, He had already been dead for a little while the soldier came and pierced His side, and two elements came out. And those elements were blood and water. And in order to come in contact with the blood, we have to go through the water. Those are the two elements that came out of the body of Christ, and those are the two elements we have to come in contact with to get into the body of Jesus Christ.
Now you're really making things up. These are the two elements we must contact to get into Christ? Sheesh.

Galatians 3:27, which is why 1 Peter 3:21 teaches us that baptism saves us, because spiritually speaking we are being obedient and coming in contact with the blood of Christ. In Acts 22:16 the question was asked, “Why are you waiting? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”
What does "spiritually speaking" even mean? We either are, or we are not, contacting the blood of Christ. No passage says we contact the blood of Christ in baptism. Your concatenation of prooftexts doesn't prove it. Neither does the continual insertion of it based upon the passage in Revelation. You have a major problem here, since we are justified by faith. Justified means we are in right relation with God...no sins present there. Nowhere in scripture does it say baptism justifies us.

If you have yet to obey the truth; if you don't have Jesus as your Savior, you need to follow Him; you need to obey Him.
This is off base. I've been the Lords for the last 47 years. I do follow Him...and I do not follow made up "theology" that adds conditions to scripture.

Dilligence
Feb 4th 2013, 04:24 AM
Agreed.


Agreed.

poor wording...seems contradictory because no one comes to Christ unless the Father draws them.

That is what Revelation 1:5 says, and you are taking that verse and presupposing contact.


Again, your use of 'spiritually speaking' makes no sense. Also, your assumption of blood contact in baptism is simply being inserted.


Now you're really making things up. These are the two elements we must contact to get into Christ? Sheesh.

What does "spiritually speaking" even mean? We either are, or we are not, contacting the blood of Christ. No passage says we contact the blood of Christ in baptism. Your concatenation of prooftexts doesn't prove it. Neither does the continual insertion of it based upon the passage in Revelation. You have a major problem here, since we are justified by faith. Justified means we are in right relation with God...no sins present there. Nowhere in scripture does it say baptism justifies us.

This is off base. I've been the Lords for the last 47 years. I do follow Him...and I do not follow made up "theology" that adds conditions to scripture.

Well, I have provided adequate and several scriptures but you will disagree so I will part from this thread. No sense in continuing to argue....:B

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 04:26 AM
Thanks for the discussion.

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 04:31 AM
That is what Revelation 1:5 says, and you are taking that verse and presupposing contact.

"presupposing" as you put it is thinking something can be washed by something, and those two somethings not coming into contact???



Again, your use of 'spiritually speaking' makes no sense. Also, your assumption of blood contact in baptism is simply being inserted.


Now you're really making things up. These are the two elements we must contact to get into Christ? Sheesh.

What does "spiritually speaking" even mean? We either are, or we are not, contacting the blood of Christ. No passage says we contact the blood of Christ in baptism. Your concatenation of prooftexts doesn't prove it. Neither does the continual insertion of it based upon the passage in Revelation. You have a major problem here, since we are justified by faith. Justified means we are in right relation with God...no sins present there. Nowhere in scripture does it say baptism justifies us.
Baptism is a command, unless you obey commands you cannot be justified, can you?

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 04:43 AM
"presupposing" as you put it is thinking something can be washed by something, and those two somethings not coming into contact???
It is figurative language. Do you believe the elements of the Lord's supper become His flesh and blood? Peter mentions we are sprinkled with Christ's blood...which is also figurative language.


Baptism is a command, unless you obey commands you cannot be justified, can you?
We are justified by faith. Not a single scripture says we are justified by baptism or by obedience, IIRC. If you remember some I don't, please post them. Obedience is much more about maturation/sanctification.

W :)

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 04:44 AM
Y'all have a blessed evening. I've gotta get some shuteye. W :)

TomH
Feb 4th 2013, 04:49 AM
John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


So, here's your dilemma to solve.

Jesus was hanging on the cross, dying for our sins. He had in His possession the sins of the world.

It is finished and the Ghost (Holy Spirit, or more precisely His spirit).

The body of Christ, and the Spirit of Christ are separated.

(and as a side note, ghost can also be known as soul).

So Jesus has upon Him the sins of the world, and His spirit/soul leaves His body.

His body, (along with His blood) is entombed. (also notice, NOT buried.

His soul/spirit goes somewhere else (I say that because it's a debate for another thread) but it probably went the same place all spirit/souls go when the body dies.

This is commonly seen as someplace under the earthly realms. Buried.

Question;

Do our sins go with the entombed body, or do they go with the buried soul/spirit?

If you say our sins remain in the body, so they can be washed with His blood, then the sins remain left in the body and when Jesus is resurrected soul/spirit, and return to the body, sin also is waiting.

If you say that our sins are buried, to that place all soul/spirits go upon physical death, the sin, in able to be resurrected, remain buried (and forgotten) and the soul/spirit of Jesus is resurrected SIN FREE!

So, are we physically baptized with water/blood of Jesus.

Or are we spiritually baptized in the name (spirit) of Jesus Christ?

TomH
Feb 4th 2013, 04:59 AM
Going to the swayback machine. (call it lazy, but I'm going to bed soon)

When you see " baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (pardon my slip, I meant to say Ghost)
It pertains to water baptism.

When you see "In the name of Jesus Christ" it's the spiritual baptism of Jesus.

Just sayin'

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 03:54 PM
It is figurative language. Do you believe the elements of the Lord's supper become His flesh and blood? Peter mentions we are sprinkled with Christ's blood...which is also figurative language.

You are correct, a person does not physically come into the contact of the blood of Christ, no more than they partake of the physical blood and body of Christ when partaking of the Lords supper, it is a representation (in the case of the Lords supper a "remembrance"), so why do you and others so desperately try to make a physical connection with the cleansing blood of Christ and the contact there of?

Coming into contact of the blood of Christ is a "representation" it was expressed by Diligence as "Spiritually Speaking" of which you tried to ridicule the choice of words (I think we both can understand what is meant by "Spiritually Speaking")



We are justified by faith. Not a single scripture says we are justified by baptism or by obedience, IIRC. If you remember some I don't, please post them. Obedience is much more about maturation/sanctification.

W :)

I would like to go on with this because I believe you are wrong, one cannot be "justified" and be in sin, and disobedience is a transgression and transgression is sin therefore in disobedience one cannot be justified, however this is off topic and I would much more have you to answer my original question to you of which all you gave for an answer "They are both true" which did not answer the question, so here ill give it to you again:

in regard to remission of sins, how can these both be true?

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 26:28 (KJV)
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 03:57 PM
I would like to go on with this because I believe you are wrong, one cannot be "justified" and be in sin, and disobedience is a transgression and transgression is sin therefore in disobedience one cannot be justified, however this is off topic and I would much more have you to answer my original question to you of which all you gave for an answer "They are both true" which did not answer the question, so here ill give it to you again:

in regard to remission of sins, how can these both be true?

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 26:28 (KJV)
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Your question is moot, because it fails to take into account the balance of scripture regarding repentance and remission of sins, faith and justification thereby.

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 04:03 PM
Your question is moot, because it fails to take into account the balance of scripture regarding repentance and remission of sins, faith and justification thereby.
Your answer fails because you cannot conclude anything other than redemption comes from the blood of Christ, it is by His blood our sins are remitted (Matt. 26:28) and water baptism is the way we come in contact with that cleansing blood (Acts 2:38) else there be more than one way to remit sins, and the bible does not teach that. therefore one comes into contact with the cleansing blood of Christ through water baptism.

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 04:04 PM
Ok, more later. I'm at work presently and can't give complete and detailed response between appointments.

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 04:21 PM
Going to the swayback machine. (call it lazy, but I'm going to bed soon)

When you see " baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (pardon my slip, I meant to say Ghost)
It pertains to water baptism.

I agree, and it is not a slip, both "Spirit" and "Ghost" are translated from the same Greek word "Pneuma", "Ghost" is from the old English.


When you see "In the name of Jesus Christ" it's the spiritual baptism of Jesus.

Just sayin'

No, when you see "In the name of" someone it means by that someones "Authority" and since (and I would be surprised if you disagree) and since the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are as one in purpose, "In the name of" any one of the three is the same as "In the name of" all three, it boils down to the same "by the authority of Christ".

BroRog
Feb 4th 2013, 04:55 PM
Your answer fails because you cannot conclude anything other than redemption comes from the blood of Christ, it is by His blood our sins are remitted (Matt. 26:28) and water baptism is the way we come in contact with that cleansing blood (Acts 2:38) else there be more than one way to remit sins, and the bible does not teach that. therefore one comes into contact with the cleansing blood of Christ through water baptism.How does your conclusion follow from your premise? I don't see anything in the text, which speaks about making contact with the blood of Christ.

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 04:59 PM
John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


So, here's your dilemma to solve.

Jesus was hanging on the cross, dying for our sins. He had in His possession the sins of the world.

It is finished and the Ghost (Holy Spirit, or more precisely His spirit).

The body of Christ, and the Spirit of Christ are separated.

(and as a side note, ghost can also be known as soul).

Not in the New Testament, every single place in the new testament where ones spirit or ghost is yielded up or made reference to (over 400 times in I think 9 inflections with one exception in Revelations) is in the Greek "pneuma" Spirit, not Greek "Psuche" Soul.


So Jesus has upon Him the sins of the world, and His spirit/soul leaves His body.

His body, (along with His blood) is entombed. (also notice, NOT buried.

So according to your description Paul was a liar in 1 Cor. 15:4 when he used the word "buried", here is the Greek word so its not failure of translation:

- Original: θάπτω
- Transliteration: Thapto
- Phonetic: thap'-to
- Definition:
1. to bury, inter
- Origin: a root
- TDNT entry: None
- Part(s) of speech: Verb (Thayer's) and for those who don't like Thayer's, Strongs is the same.


His soul/spirit goes somewhere else (I say that because it's a debate for another thread) but it probably went the same place all spirit/souls go when the body dies.

This is commonly seen as someplace under the earthly realms. Buried.

Question;

Do our sins go with the entombed body, or do they go with the buried soul/spirit?

If you say our sins remain in the body, so they can be washed with His blood, then the sins remain left in the body and when Jesus is resurrected soul/spirit, and return to the body, sin also is waiting.

If you say that our sins are buried, to that place all soul/spirits go upon physical death, the sin, in able to be resurrected, remain buried (and forgotten) and the soul/spirit of Jesus is resurrected SIN FREE!

So, are we physically baptized with water/blood of Jesus.

Or are we spiritually baptized in the name (spirit) of Jesus Christ?

Water Baptism is a spiritual representation of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:3-4)

Romans 6:3-4 (NKJV)
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

, it puts us "in Christ", to be "in Christ" we must have our sins remitted, and His blood is the only way to have our sins remitted (Mat. 26:28)

Matthew 26:28 (NKJV)
28 “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

the blood of Christ cleanses our sins (1 John 1:7)

1 John 1:7 (NKJV)
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

and Peter tells us water baptism is what puts us in spiritual contact with the cleansing blood of Christ remitting our sins (Acts 2:38)

Acts 2:38 (NKJV)
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

(Notice NKJV renders "Pneuma" as "Spirit" not as the KJV "Ghost"

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 05:01 PM
How does your conclusion follow from your premise? I don't see anything in the text, which speaks about making contact with the blood of Christ.

You don't see anything in the Holy Writ that speaks anything about the unleavened bread actually being his body either (its not), but have no problem with understanding the spiritual representation of that?

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 05:13 PM
I've just a moment here. John's baptism was for the remission of sins...before Christ's blood had been shed. How can this be?

BroRog
Feb 4th 2013, 05:15 PM
Water Baptism is a spiritual representation of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:3-4)I disagree. That is not what Paul meant.


Romans 6:3-4 (NKJV)
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

, it puts us "in Christ", to be "in Christ" we must have our sins remitted, and His blood is the only way to have our sins remitted (Mat. 26:28) We know from Acts 19, that being baptized "into" some teacher, John the Baptist for instance, indicates an agreement to become a disciple. Thus, if I get baptized by John, I become John's disciple and I believe his teaching. If I get baptized by Jesus, I become a disciple of Jesus and I believe his teaching.

So then, when Paul talks about those who have been baptized "into Christ Jesus" the talk is focused on the teaching of Jesus and those who have accepted his teaching. Remember, Paul is answering a rhetorical question, "shall we sin so that grace might increase?" Paul's answer is no, those who have become disciples of Christ affirm his teaching and have dedicated themselves to it, walking "in newness of life." The passage you cite says nothing about having sins remitted, because the remission of sins is not the question being answered. The question is, "shall we continue in sin?" And the answer is, "the disciples of Christ are dedicated to a new life without sin."


and Peter tells us water baptism is what puts us in spiritual contact with the cleansing blood of Christ remitting our sins (Acts 2:38)

Acts 2:38 (NKJV)
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Here I must disagree also. Peter is asking his audience to repent, which is the basis for the remission of sins. The content or behavior indicative of repentance is the agreement to become a disciple of Jesus Christ. Peter is asking the crowds to give up their suspicion and hatred of Jesus and believe the truth that he actually is the messiah. Turn to him and become his disciple. If someone does that, their sins will be forgiven.

BroRog
Feb 4th 2013, 05:17 PM
I've just a moment here. John's baptism was for the remission of sins...before Christ's blood had been shed. How can this be?John taught the people to repent and to look forward to the coming of the messiah and to believe in him.

Bottom line, God is willing to forgive anyone with a humble and contrite heart, who wants to repent and turn to him. God is willing to forgive on that basis.

BroRog
Feb 4th 2013, 05:18 PM
You don't see anything in the Holy Writ that speaks anything about the unleavened bread actually being his body either (its not), but have no problem with understanding the spiritual representation of that?Can you speak slower, I haven't had my coffee yet this morning.

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 05:20 PM
I've just a moment here. John's baptism was for the remission of sins...before Christ's blood had been shed. How can this be?

Real Quick? His blood flowed to both sides of the cross.

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 05:20 PM
Can you speak slower, I haven't had my coffee yet this morning.
LoL... Okay... Sorry :-)

rrowell
Feb 4th 2013, 05:47 PM
I disagree. That is not what Paul meant.

We know from Acts 19, that being baptized "into" some teacher, John the Baptist for instance, indicates an agreement to become a disciple. Thus, if I get baptized by John, I become John's disciple and I believe his teaching. If I get baptized by Jesus, I become a disciple of Jesus and I believe his teaching.

No, we don't know that from Acts 19, there is nothing in the scripture that says someone is to be baptized into some teacher, in fact water baptism was brought not by the Mosaic law but by John the Baptizer (who was only 6 months older than Jesus) so your ideology is flawed.


So then, when Paul talks about those who have been baptized "into Christ Jesus" the talk is focused on the teaching of Jesus and those who have accepted his teaching. Remember, Paul is answering a rhetorical question, "shall we sin so that grace might increase?" Paul's answer is no, those who have become disciples of Christ affirm his teaching and have dedicated themselves to it, walking "in newness of life." The passage you cite says nothing about having sins remitted, because the remission of sins is not the question being answered. The question is, "shall we continue in sin?" And the answer is, "the disciples of Christ are dedicated to a new life without sin."

What Paul is doing is explaining what water Baptism is, and that it only has to be done once (as Christ only died and arose once)... the point is he explains here what water baptism is...


Here I must disagree also. Peter is asking his audience to repent, which is the basis for the remission of sins. The content or behavior indicative of repentance is the agreement to become a disciple of Jesus Christ. Peter is asking the crowds to give up their suspicion and hatred of Jesus and believe the truth that he actually is the messiah. Turn to him and become his disciple. If someone does that, their sins will be forgiven.

Repentance and Remission are two different things, the first is a change of ways/heart, a decision to try to sin no more, the latter is the washing away the sins (forgiveness, remembered no more), there is only one way to remit sins.

Revelation 1:5 (KJV)
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 7:14 (KJV)
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

BroRog
Feb 4th 2013, 08:26 PM
No, we don't know that from Acts 19, there is nothing in the scripture that says someone is to be baptized into some teacher, in fact water baptism was brought not by the Mosaic law but by John the Baptizer (who was only 6 months older than Jesus) so your ideology is flawed.

I wish I was better at using a search engine so I could find the post where I laid this all out, which would same me some time. But alas, I am going to suffer for my ignorance. :) Okay, so here we go again. Acts 19

19:1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they [said] to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they speaking with tongues and prophesying. 7 There were in all about twelve men.

found some disciples
Were these disciples of Jesus?

we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.
No. These disciples had not heard whether there was a Holy Spirit, which was a clear teaching of Jesus. Had these disciples been students of Jesus, they would have heard about the Holy Spirit.

Into what then were you baptized
Notice Paul's vocabulary. From this passage we get a hint of how Paul used his language and what he meant by "baptized into". Ask any Christian today what they were baptized "into" and the obvious answer is "water." I was put into the water. But when Paul asks "into what were you baptized?" he doesn't mean, "what was the fluid into which you were dunked?" He means, "who was your teacher?"

And they said, "Into John's baptism."
They understood Paul's question to be, "who was your teacher and what did he teach?" And so the disciples answered, "Into John's baptism.", indicating their teacher. These disciples were disciples of John and when they got baptized, they agreed to study under John and believe what he said.

repentance . . . telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him
As soon as Paul heard that these were disciples of John, Paul immediately knew the teaching they had received, because John's teaching was well known. Everyone knew that John taught the people to repent, and they also knew that John taught is disciples to anticipate the coming messiah. And so Paul informs them of the identity of the messiah John anticipated -- the coming, anticipated messiah is Jesus.

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Why does Luke say that these disciples were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus? What is the significance of being baptized in his name?

As we learned from Paul's exchange with The Ephesian disciples of John, to be baptized INTO a person is to become a disciple of that person. We see Paul ask these disciples "into what were you baptized", making inquiry about the teacher and the content of the teaching. And we see the disciples respond with a person's name, John. He was their teacher and so according to the common vernacular, to be baptized "into John" is to become a student of John. But what would happen, say, if Peter baptized some disciples. Would they become disciples of Peter. Normally, yes.

According to custom, those who made disciples baptized them in water, signifying a commitment on the part of the student to live according to the teachings of the teacher. So, technically, if Peter baptized someone, that person is stating a commitment to become a student of Peter. If Paul were to baptize someone, that person would signify a commitment to become the student of Paul. Just as John's students were "baptized" into him and his teaching, Peter could conceivably baptize people into Peter, Paul could baptize people into Paul and etc.

Given this cultural expectation, Jesus commands his apostles to break custom in the following way,

Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."


make disciples
Many Christians will take us to these verses and say, "see, Jesus commanded us to be baptized." Well, no, not exactly. The verb here is "make disciples". The actual commandment is to "make disciples". We are to make disciples; the essential obligation here is to inform, educate, train students who will agree to commit time, energy, and effort in the process of learning a body of teaching.

baptizing them . . . teaching them
These are the two main aspects of making a disciple during that time and according to common custom. When we make a disciple, that person agrees to become our student and we agree to teach them. Baptizing them is the customary way for the "student" to indicate a wish to obligate himself or herself to be a faithful student.

baptizing them in the name of
Here is where Jesus breaks tradition. Instead of making disciples for themselves, the apostles are going to make disciples for Jesus. The apostles are NOT going to make their own disciples, they are going to make disciples for Jesus Christ, or "in the name of Jesus." If Peter baptizes me, I am Peter's disciple; but if Peter baptizes me in the name of Jesus, then I am Jesus' disciple not Peter's disciple. If Paul baptizes me for Jesus, I am not Paul's disciple, I am Jesus' disciple. And so the commandment isn't merely to make disciples, the commandment is to make disciples for Jesus, rather than for themselves.

This idea that the baptizer is the teacher, and those baptized are the followers of the one who baptized them was so strong, that it became an issue in Corinth and led to confusion.

10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's [people], that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." 13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized [B]in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name.

What we have here is a prime example of the kinds of misunderstandings can take place when someone breaks custom. Jesus commanded that his apostles baptize in his name, making disciples for him. This being the case, all of the Corinthians should have said, "I am of Christ." But since the custom of baptism was such a strong indicator of someone's loyalty to the teacher, it was hard for the Corinthians to understand that when Peter or Paul or anyone baptized in the name of Jesus, they were becoming a disciple of Jesus, not a disciple of Peter or Paul or whoever performed the actual baptism.

We note here, also, Paul's thanks that he had not baptized many people. Had he believed that baptism was an ordinance or even a sacrament, he could never have said that. Paul would never say, "thank God I disobeyed an ordinance." And he would never say, "thank God I kept people from a sacrament." Rather, Paul's concern was the misunderstanding that the baptism has brought about. If it was up to him, he would forego the baptism all together. He can do just fine without it. He goes on to say,

7 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Here we learn that Paul could have done his entire ministry without baptizing a single person. Why? Because Christ did not send him to baptize. Now if Paul believed that baptism was necessary for salvation, or that Jesus established baptism as an ordinance, or that the Bible taught that baptism was a means to God's grace, then Paul could never say, "Christ did not send me to baptize." But Paul didn't consider baptism necessary for any reason. And in fact, he says, the baptism got in his way of preaching the gospel. What he means is: his message is centered on Jesus Christ and him crucified. As such, Jesus is the central focus of the message. And apparently for the Corinthians, baptism was the reason why the church became fragmented and divided due to the change in focus from Jesus to the others.


What Paul is doing is explaining what water Baptism is, and that it only has to be done once (as Christ only died and arose once)... the point is he explains here what water baptism is... I don't think so. I think Paul is expecting his readers to know already what the baptism is. He is counting on them already knowing what teaching they accepted and what teacher they agreed to obey when they got baptized. The question Paul poses is "shall we sin so that grace might increase?" And the answer is, "of course not." Those who were baptized "into Christ" (there is that phrase again) committed themselves to live according to what Jesus taught. And he taught two things about sin, 1) those who live in sin are slaves of sin, and 2) those who love God will seek to be pure. In other words, grace was not the cause of MORE sin, it is the cause of LESS sin because those who have become disciples of Christ have agreed that sin is wrong and the penalty for sin is high.


Repentance and Remission are two different things, the first is a change of ways/heart, a decision to try to sin no more, the latter is the washing away the sins (forgiveness, remembered no more), there is only one way to remit sins.Ultimately, the only one with the power to forgive sins is God the father. But the father has granted the power to forgive sins to his son. So when we talk about the "way" to remit sins, we say that Jesus is "the way." And in practical terms, as Peter says, those who wish to be forgiven must repent and become disciples of Jesus Christ (baptized in his name).

Watchman
Feb 4th 2013, 10:09 PM
No, we don't know that from Acts 19, there is nothing in the scripture that says someone is to be baptized into some teacher, in fact water baptism was brought not by the Mosaic law but by John the Baptizer (who was only 6 months older than Jesus) so your ideology is flawed.
Umm..perhaps thou shouldest do a bit of study on mikveh and you'll find that ceremonial cleansing immersions were very common in Judaism. Back to work for me.

W :)

rrowell
Feb 5th 2013, 01:07 AM
Umm..perhaps thou shouldest do a bit of study on mikveh and you'll find that ceremonial cleansing immersions were very common in Judaism. Back to work for me.

W :)

Why? Peter said it was not for "putting away of the filth of the flesh", the mikveh was a pool for doing just that...

1 Peter 3:20-21 (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 01:11 AM
Why? Peter said it was not for "putting away of the filth of the flesh", the mikveh was a pool for doing just that...

1 Peter 3:20-21 (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
The point was that John didn't introduce anything new with regards to immersion. It was an old practice. How can one answer with a good conscience before baptism?

rrowell
Feb 5th 2013, 01:16 AM
I wish I was better at using a search engine so I could find the post where I laid this all out, which would same me some time. But alas, I am going to suffer for my ignorance. :) Okay, so here we go again. Acts 19

19:1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they [said] to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they speaking with tongues and prophesying. 7 There were in all about twelve men.

found some disciples
Were these disciples of Jesus?

we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.
No. These disciples had not heard whether there was a Holy Spirit, which was a clear teaching of Jesus. Had these disciples been students of Jesus, they would have heard about the Holy Spirit.

Into what then were you baptized
Notice Paul's vocabulary. From this passage we get a hint of how Paul used his language and what he meant by "baptized into". Ask any Christian today what they were baptized "into" and the obvious answer is "water." I was put into the water. But when Paul asks "into what were you baptized?" he doesn't mean, "what was the fluid into which you were dunked?" He means, "who was your teacher?"

And they said, "Into John's baptism."
They understood Paul's question to be, "who was your teacher and what did he teach?" And so the disciples answered, "Into John's baptism.", indicating their teacher. These disciples were disciples of John and when they got baptized, they agreed to study under John and believe what he said.

repentance . . . telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him
As soon as Paul heard that these were disciples of John, Paul immediately knew the teaching they had received, because John's teaching was well known. Everyone knew that John taught the people to repent, and they also knew that John taught is disciples to anticipate the coming messiah. And so Paul informs them of the identity of the messiah John anticipated -- the coming, anticipated messiah is Jesus.

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Why does Luke say that these disciples were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus? What is the significance of being baptized in his name?

As we learned from Paul's exchange with The Ephesian disciples of John, to be baptized INTO a person is to become a disciple of that person. We see Paul ask these disciples "into what were you baptized", making inquiry about the teacher and the content of the teaching. And we see the disciples respond with a person's name, John. He was their teacher and so according to the common vernacular, to be baptized "into John" is to become a student of John. But what would happen, say, if Peter baptized some disciples. Would they become disciples of Peter. Normally, yes.

According to custom, those who made disciples baptized them in water, signifying a commitment on the part of the student to live according to the teachings of the teacher. So, technically, if Peter baptized someone, that person is stating a commitment to become a student of Peter. If Paul were to baptize someone, that person would signify a commitment to become the student of Paul. Just as John's students were "baptized" into him and his teaching, Peter could conceivably baptize people into Peter, Paul could baptize people into Paul and etc.

Given this cultural expectation, Jesus commands his apostles to break custom in the following way,

Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."


make disciples
Many Christians will take us to these verses and say, "see, Jesus commanded us to be baptized." Well, no, not exactly. The verb here is "make disciples". The actual commandment is to "make disciples". We are to make disciples; the essential obligation here is to inform, educate, train students who will agree to commit time, energy, and effort in the process of learning a body of teaching.

baptizing them . . . teaching them
These are the two main aspects of making a disciple during that time and according to common custom. When we make a disciple, that person agrees to become our student and we agree to teach them. Baptizing them is the customary way for the "student" to indicate a wish to obligate himself or herself to be a faithful student.

baptizing them in the name of
Here is where Jesus breaks tradition. Instead of making disciples for themselves, the apostles are going to make disciples for Jesus. The apostles are NOT going to make their own disciples, they are going to make disciples for Jesus Christ, or "in the name of Jesus." If Peter baptizes me, I am Peter's disciple; but if Peter baptizes me in the name of Jesus, then I am Jesus' disciple not Peter's disciple. If Paul baptizes me for Jesus, I am not Paul's disciple, I am Jesus' disciple. And so the commandment isn't merely to make disciples, the commandment is to make disciples for Jesus, rather than for themselves.

This idea that the baptizer is the teacher, and those baptized are the followers of the one who baptized them was so strong, that it became an issue in Corinth and led to confusion.

10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's [people], that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." 13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized [B]in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name.

What we have here is a prime example of the kinds of misunderstandings can take place when someone breaks custom. Jesus commanded that his apostles baptize in his name, making disciples for him. This being the case, all of the Corinthians should have said, "I am of Christ." But since the custom of baptism was such a strong indicator of someone's loyalty to the teacher, it was hard for the Corinthians to understand that when Peter or Paul or anyone baptized in the name of Jesus, they were becoming a disciple of Jesus, not a disciple of Peter or Paul or whoever performed the actual baptism.

We note here, also, Paul's thanks that he had not baptized many people. Had he believed that baptism was an ordinance or even a sacrament, he could never have said that. Paul would never say, "thank God I disobeyed an ordinance." And he would never say, "thank God I kept people from a sacrament." Rather, Paul's concern was the misunderstanding that the baptism has brought about. If it was up to him, he would forego the baptism all together. He can do just fine without it. He goes on to say,

7 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Here we learn that Paul could have done his entire ministry without baptizing a single person. Why? Because Christ did not send him to baptize. Now if Paul believed that baptism was necessary for salvation, or that Jesus established baptism as an ordinance, or that the Bible taught that baptism was a means to God's grace, then Paul could never say, "Christ did not send me to baptize." But Paul didn't consider baptism necessary for any reason. And in fact, he says, the baptism got in his way of preaching the gospel. What he means is: his message is centered on Jesus Christ and him crucified. As such, Jesus is the central focus of the message. And apparently for the Corinthians, baptism was the reason why the church became fragmented and divided due to the change in focus from Jesus to the others.

I don't think so. I think Paul is expecting his readers to know already what the baptism is. He is counting on them already knowing what teaching they accepted and what teacher they agreed to obey when they got baptized. The question Paul poses is "shall we sin so that grace might increase?" And the answer is, "of course not." Those who were baptized "into Christ" (there is that phrase again) committed themselves to live according to what Jesus taught. And he taught two things about sin, 1) those who live in sin are slaves of sin, and 2) those who love God will seek to be pure. In other words, grace was not the cause of MORE sin, it is the cause of LESS sin because those who have become disciples of Christ have agreed that sin is wrong and the penalty for sin is high.

Ultimately, the only one with the power to forgive sins is God the father. But the father has granted the power to forgive sins to his son. So when we talk about the "way" to remit sins, we say that Jesus is "the way." And in practical terms, as Peter says, those who wish to be forgiven must repent and become disciples of Jesus Christ (baptized in his name).

Actually when Paul had shown up on this seen, the baptism of John was obsolete, Paul here was astonished that they did not know even that there was a Holy Spirit, yet John preached Him, this could only mean they were baptized of the baptism of John by a disciple of John and not of John himself... they were not properly taught or baptized...

Paul had seen this and preached Christ to them, told them to be baptized in His name and then they received the HS.

There is no indication that any of the Apostles were ever re-baptized so this could only mean that since these were told to be re-baptized, they were not properly taught or baptized to begin with.

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 01:18 AM
I submit that if we contact(ed) the blood of Christ at all, it was at His crucifixion, since we were with Him. We, like Paul, are crucified with Christ...

rrowell
Feb 5th 2013, 01:19 AM
The point was that John didn't introduce anything new with regards to immersion. It was an old practice. How can one answer with a good conscience before baptism?

Immersion has been around as long as there have been pools, the point is the baptism of John was for repentance and remission of sins.

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 01:21 AM
Immersion has been around as long as there have been pools, the point is the baptism of John was for repentance and remission of sins.
But you're saying that is what baptism into Christ is about...which is it? If those who were baptized with John's baptism were forgiven, what need had they to be baptized again?

rrowell
Feb 5th 2013, 01:25 AM
I submit that if we contact(ed) the blood of Christ at all, it was at His crucifixion, since we were with Him. We, like Paul, are crucified with Christ...

We are crucified with Christ when we are water baptized in His name. Rom. 6:3-4 (so says Paul)

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 01:25 AM
One thing is certain: the translators did no one any favors by transliterating baptizo, rather than translating it!

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 01:34 AM
We are crucified with Christ when we are water baptized in His name. Rom. 6:3-4 (so says Paul)
Disagree. Your opinion of what Paul said is colored by the transliteration of baptizo. It means far more than the simple 'immersion' pablum we were fed as children. In fact, baptizo can be translated as 'placed in' and it makes much more sense.

Romans 6:3-4 Do you not know that all we who were placed in Christ Jesus, in His death were placed? We were, therefore, entombed with Him through this being placed in His death, in order that in the same manner as there was raised up Christ out from among those who are dead through the glory of the Father, thus also we by means of a new life imparted may order our behavior. Wuest Expanded Translation

Dilligence
Feb 5th 2013, 01:34 AM
One thing is certain: the translators did no one any favors by transliterating baptizo, rather than translating it!

What origan does baptizo come from?

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 01:47 AM
What origan does baptizo come from?
If you're asking what were its Greek uses,it meant to cover wholly with a fluid: to stain or dip as with dye; it was used of the metalsmith tempering red-hot steel; used of dyeing the hair; of a ship that "dipped" = sank); and even of making pickles. The idea was that of placing a person or object into a new environment or into union with something else so as to alter its condition or its relationship to its previous environment or condition. In each use, a permanent change was wrought in the thing dipped/immersed/whelmed/placed in. A cloth was permanently changed in color. A sword was permanently changed in temper. A ship was permanently changed with regard to utility. A cucumber was permanently changed into a pickle.

In the case of saints, a soulish, carnal creature is reborn as a baby spiritual creature. The ONLY permanent change we see in people who belong to Christ is the indwelling of His Spirit. That change does not result from water baptism. It results from the entrance of His Spirit into the spirit of the former sinner.

All this being said...did I understand your question properly?:hmm:

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 01:48 AM
BTW, the thread re: Spirit baptism is active again. :spin:

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 01:56 AM
Now, if we must contact the blood of Christ in order to 1) receive remission of sins, 2) be placed in Him, and 3) receive His Spirit, then how could Paul possibly say:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit... Ephesians 1:13

???

W :)

rrowell
Feb 5th 2013, 02:11 AM
But you're saying that is what baptism into Christ is about...which is it? If those who were baptized with John's baptism were forgiven, what need had they to be baptized again?

Your not reading all of my posts....

I said, there is no indication of any apostles ever being re-baptized, therefore the "about" 12 that Paul had come across having never heard of the HS, and since John preached the HS they were obviously not properly taught or baptized hence Paul preached Christ to them and re-baptized them, this is not required of someone to baptized more than once.

rrowell
Feb 5th 2013, 02:12 AM
Now, if we must contact the blood of Christ in order to 1) receive remission of sins, 2) be placed in Him, and 3) receive His Spirit, then how could Paul possibly say:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit... Ephesians 1:13

???

W :)

Because those he said it to were already water baptized, they were already saints:

Ephesians 1:1 (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

rrowell
Feb 5th 2013, 02:13 AM
BTW, the thread re: Spirit baptism is active again. :spin:

Okay, care to join me?

rrowell
Feb 5th 2013, 02:22 AM
Disagree. Your opinion of what Paul said is colored by the transliteration of baptizo. It means far more than the simple 'immersion' pablum we were fed as children. In fact, baptizo can be translated as 'placed in' and it makes much more sense.

Romans 6:3-4 Do you not know that all we who were placed in Christ Jesus, in His death were placed? We were, therefore, entombed with Him through this being placed in His death, in order that in the same manner as there was raised up Christ out from among those who are dead through the glory of the Father, thus also we by means of a new life imparted may order our behavior. Wuest Expanded Translation

Baptizo means immerse or dip, to be covered, but baptizo does not define the baptism, it is in the context, every instance of baptizo is in the context of water with the two exceptions of the HS, the Apostles and the house of Cornelius...

And by the way, you can find some mans translation (or should I say interpretation) of a so called bible that will say anything you want if you look hard enough... (as you have clearly demonstrated) :)

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 02:29 AM
Baptizo means immerse or dip, to be covered, but baptizo does not define the baptism, it is in the context, every instance of baptizo is in the context of water with the two exceptions of the HS, the Apostles and the house of Cornelius...
Well, that is another thread! You're stumbling all over yourself with that dogma, regardless of whose translation ya use! Jesus used baptism regarding His suffering and it was also used of fire...so that water with only 2 exceptions biz is rather incorrect.


And by the way, you can find some mans translation (or should I say interpretation) of a so called bible that will say anything you want if you look hard enough... (as you have clearly demonstrated) :)
You're not going to get much traction with that line, either. When it comes to, "I believe my scholars are better than yours", the discussion is over for me. Brother Wuest was a rather sharp cookie. Even so, just like every single translator who ever lived, he had some biases...just like every commentor who ever wrote a line about scripture. We all have them and some of them are buried so deeply we are unaware of them. Translation IS interpretation. I'll take most any of them over the KJV, but that, too, is another thread for another time.

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 02:31 AM
Because those he said it to were already water baptized, they were already saints:

Ephesians 1:1 (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Big whoopteedoo. They were included in Christ WHEN they heard the gospel and were sealed WHEN they believed. Your reasoning is faulty.

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 02:32 AM
BTW, the thread re: Spirit baptism is active again. :spin:

Okay, care to join me?
If yer waitin' on me, yer backin' up. I've already posted there a number of times. :P

rrowell
Feb 5th 2013, 02:38 AM
Big whoopteedoo. They were included in Christ WHEN they heard the gospel and were sealed WHEN they believed. Your reasoning is faulty.

They were included when they responded to the gospel, water baptized and added to the Church or put "into Christ" just like those in Acts. 2:38.

rrowell
Feb 5th 2013, 02:47 AM
Well, that is another thread! You're stumbling all over yourself with that dogma, regardless of whose translation ya use! Jesus used baptism regarding His suffering and it was also used of fire...so that water with only 2 exceptions biz is rather incorrect.

There is one baptism:

Ephesians 4:5 (KJV)
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Yet there are three:

Matthew 3:11 (NKJV)
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

And you know why the bible says there is "one baptism" because there is ONLY ONE THAT SAVES, and it is done by the disciples... Water Baptism... it was done even to the house of Cornelius, why? because the baptism of the HS dose not save you, you cannot show one example where someone was saved by the baptism of the HS and was not water baptized.



You're not going to get much traction with that line, either. When it comes to, "I believe my scholars are better than yours", the discussion is over for me. Brother Wuest was a rather sharp cookie. Even so, just like every single translator who ever lived, he had some biases...just like every commentor who ever wrote a line about scripture. We all have them and some of them are buried so deeply we are unaware of them. Translation IS interpretation. I'll take most any of them over the KJV, but that, too, is another thread for another time.

I don't trust scholars either, the devil was a scholar, he told eve what God meant...

I put my trust in the guidance of the HS...

rrowell
Feb 5th 2013, 02:49 AM
If yer waitin' on me, yer backin' up. I've already posted there a number of times. :P

I have already been there ;)

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 02:54 AM
I put my trust in the guidance of the HS...
And how do you obtain His guidance?

BroRog
Feb 5th 2013, 03:51 AM
Actually when Paul had shown up on this seen, the baptism of John was obsolete, Paul here was astonished that they did not know even that there was a Holy Spirit, yet John preached Him, this could only mean they were baptized of the baptism of John by a disciple of John and not of John himself... they were not properly taught or baptized...

Paul had seen this and preached Christ to them, told them to be baptized in His name and then they received the HS.

There is no indication that any of the Apostles were ever re-baptized so this could only mean that since these were told to be re-baptized, they were not properly taught or baptized to begin with.So what? Are you one of those people who makes stuff up as they go along?

rrowell
Feb 5th 2013, 02:21 PM
So what? Are you one of those people who makes stuff up as they go along?

No, we can go through each verse if you want, I would say coming to the conclusion of being baptized into a teacher makes less sense than if you really read what is going on when Paul runs across the about 12, it is clear when Paul asked them about the HS they had not even heard of such:

Acts 19:2 (KJV)
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

This puzzles Paul, leading him to ask what baptism did they have that they would not even know of the Holy Ghost, so he asks:

Acts 19:3 (KJV)
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Now we know John preached Jesus, and the HS:

Luke 3:16 (KJV)
16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Much time has passed since John the Baptizer preached and the new covenant was enacted, Johns baptism was now obsolete, it is apparent that these 12 were baptized by a disciple of John, improperly taught Jesus and the HS (or they would have known of the HS), it was clear their baptism was improper...

So Paul preaches them Christ and the 12 are baptized properly by the proper authority, in the name of Christ Jesus, and they receive the gift of the HS (the same portion given in Acts. 2:38), then Paul laid hands upon them giving them a greater portion of the power of the HS (that only an Apostle can do clearly taught when Simon tried to buy the power from the Apostles Acts. 8:18, if this confuses you, please see the thread Watchman so kindly started in my behalf "Spirit baptism = reception of the Spirt)

Acts 19:4-6 (KJV)
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

That's not making things up as we go, its reading the text/context, not speculation that it was because they were baptized into another teacher...

rrowell
Feb 5th 2013, 02:27 PM
And how do you obtain His guidance?

James 1:5 (KJV)
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Romans 8:14 (KJV)
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 02:33 PM
James 1:5 (KJV)
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Romans 8:14 (KJV)
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Fair enough. How does the Spirit lead you?

TomH
Feb 5th 2013, 02:55 PM
Ohhhhh, I get it now.

When John the Baptist said there would be one that came AFTER him that would water baptize with the Holy Spirit, he was talking about PAUL!!

Uhm, not.

rrowell
Feb 5th 2013, 04:30 PM
Ohhhhh, I get it now.

When John the Baptist said there would be one that came AFTER him that would water baptize with the Holy Spirit, he was talking about PAUL!!

Uhm, not.

That's not it, keep reading, you will find the truth

rrowell
Feb 5th 2013, 04:32 PM
Fair enough. How does the Spirit lead you?

already answered, bump the needle, your record has a skip in it...

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 04:34 PM
I didn't see an answer...which post? If you're referring to the quote from James, that is a non-answer...unless you relegate all Spiritual guidance to the answering of prayers for wisdom.

TomH
Feb 5th 2013, 08:51 PM
already answered, bump the needle, your record has a skip in it...


Sure, you've answered several questions.

They're just the wrong answers. Or, giving you the benefit, your answer was unclear.

That's why this is a discussion forum and not a teaching forum.

" Already answered that" is not a discussion. It's an end to discussion.

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 08:55 PM
rrowell,

It would be helpful to my being able to understand you if you'd simply point out the answers to questions, or clarify them in your own words. There is no basis for discussion sans our understanding each other. Understanding doesn't equal agreement...it simply clarifies areas folks need to address. Neither does simply quoting some scripture tell much about another's understanding of it or of their intent in posting it. This unidimensional medium can be a booger in which to communicate accurately and effectively.

Just sayin'...

W :)

RabbiKnife
Feb 5th 2013, 08:55 PM
Sure, you've answered several questions.

They're just the wrong answers. Or, giving you the benefit, your answer was unclear.

That's why this is a discussion forum and not a teaching forum.

" Already answered that" is not a discussion. It's an end to discussion.

Tom knows.

When V says, "Tom, I already TOLD you!", it means, "Tom, don't ask again if you know what's good for you."

:)

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 08:57 PM
Tom knows.

When V says, "Tom, I already TOLD you!", it means, "Tom, don't ask again if you know what's good for you."

:)
:rofl: .................................................. ...........

TomH
Feb 5th 2013, 09:36 PM
Tom knows.

When V says, "Tom, I already TOLD you!", it means, "Tom, don't ask again if you know what's good for you."

:)


A good husband always has his wife's peace and tranquility high in his priorities.

rrowell
Feb 5th 2013, 10:21 PM
rrowell,

It would be helpful to my being able to understand you if you'd simply point out the answers to questions, or clarify them in your own words. There is no basis for discussion sans our understanding each other. Understanding doesn't equal agreement...it simply clarifies areas folks need to address. Neither does simply quoting some scripture tell much about another's understanding of it or of their intent in posting it. This unidimensional medium can be a booger in which to communicate accurately and effectively.

Just sayin'...

W :)


Sure, you've answered several questions.

They're just the wrong answers. Or, giving you the benefit, your answer was unclear.

That's why this is a discussion forum and not a teaching forum.

" Already answered that" is not a discussion. It's an end to discussion.

He asked:



And how do you obtain His guidance?

I said:

James 1:5 (KJV)
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Romans 8:14 (KJV)
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

These are quite clear and I doubt you need much explanation.

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 10:29 PM
James 1:5 (KJV)
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Romans 8:14 (KJV)
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

These are quite clear and I doubt you need much explanation.
Thanks. Am I correct, then, in assuming from the passages above, that the totality your view of the "how does He lead you?" aspect of Spiritual guidance is that He answers prayers for wisdom?

The second passage doesn't speak to the "how" of His leading...just to the truth that He leads God's kids.

W :)

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 11:02 PM
Maybe I poorly worded my question. Lemme try again. What methods does the Holy Spirit use in leading you, rrowell? What are the mechanics of His leading? That may not be any better...hmmm.

W :)

rrowell
Feb 5th 2013, 11:26 PM
Maybe I poorly worded my question. Lemme try again. What methods does the Holy Spirit use in leading you, rrowell? What are the mechanics of His leading? That may not be any better...hmmm.

W :)
I pray for wisdom and guidance and by the authority of Christ I believe the HS will guide me in finding my way as long as I ask unwaveringly (James 1:6)...

Does that solve your mystery?

Watchman
Feb 5th 2013, 11:33 PM
I pray for wisdom and guidance and by the authority of Christ I believe the HS will guide me in finding my way as long as I ask unwaveringly (James 1:6)...

Does that solve your mystery?
Ha ha! :lol: I don't have a mystery. I agree with your statement, but am trying to get to the part of your beliefs that tell how the Spirit works in you to accomplish His guidance. For example, we know God is Spirit, and that we are one spirit with Him; so, is it reasonable to say He works in us Spirit to spirit? Can He use scripture, other literature, people, nature, music, art, situations, world events, etc., to guide us?