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Evangelist
Feb 7th 2013, 01:37 AM
Rom 2:6-9 --- God will give eternal life to those who persistently continue in going good,
------------- but wrath and anger to the selfish who do not obey the truth and follow evil.
Rom 8:13-14 - If you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the
------------- Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live
------------- (for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God).
Rom 12:1-2 -- It is the good, acceptable, perfect will of God that you present your bodies
------------- as a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God (its your reasonable service).
1 Cor 6:9-10- Do not be deceived, unrighteous sinners will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 9:27 -- Paul disciplined his body unto subjection so he would not be disqualified.
1 Cor 12:12 - Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
1 Cor 15:1-2- You are saved by the gospel, if you hold fast that word
------------- which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
2 Cor 11:3 -- Satan deceived Eve by his craftiness, so beware that your minds
------------- may not be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2 Cor 13:5 -- Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, maybe you are disqualified.
Gal 5:19-21 - Those who practice works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:24 ---- To belong to Christ, crucify the passions and desires of the flesh.
Gal 6:7-9 --- Do not be deceived, God is not mocked - he who sows to his flesh will
------------- reap corruption, and he who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life,
------------- if he does not lose heart.
Eph 5:3-6 --- Do not be deceived, no sinner has any inheritance in the kingdom of God.
Eph 5:8-9 --- Walk as children of light, finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.
Eph 5:26-27 - Jesus will present to Himself a glorious church without spot
------------- or wrinkle, so that she should be holy and without blemish.
Phil 2:12 --- Work out your salvation with fear and trembling - God is working in you.
Phil 2:14-16- Become blameless and pure without fault, holding firmly to the word of life.
Col 1:22-23 - Jesus will present you holy, blameless, and above reproach,
------------- if you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast and unmovable.
Col 3:5-6 --- The wrath of God is coming upon those who don’t crucify their earthly nature.
Heb 3:12-15 - Beware of any evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God,
------------- lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
------------- For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning
------------- of our confidence steadfast to the end.
Heb 4:11 ---- Be diligent lest anyone fall according to examples of disobedience.
Heb 6:4-8 --- Those who have been enlightened, have experienced the Holy Spirit, have
------------- appreciated the Bible, if they fall away can never return to repentance
------------- (they have re-crucified the Son of God and subjected Him to public disgrace).
Heb 12:14 --- Pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
1 Pet 1:15-16 Be holy in all your conduct, because “Be holy, for I am holy”.
Rev 2—3 ----- JC: Christians must be overcomers in order to sit on Jesus’ throne, etc.
------------- JC: Christians must repent of their sins, wrong-doings, etc.
------------- JC: Christians who are lukewarm Jesus will vomit out of His mouth.
Rev 21:7-8 -- Overcomers will inherit all things, sinners will be in the lake of fire.
Rev 21:27 --- The impure, shameful, deceitful, etc. will never enter the New Jerusalem.
Rev 22:14-15- The obedient have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the City.

These Scripture passages support the doctrine of conditional security.

If you believe in eternal security (OSAS) … do you have any good explanations for:
Why are these verses in the NT?
Why were these warnings written to the churches?

Nick
Feb 7th 2013, 03:06 AM
Great verses. Read them all. Certainly need to stay vigilant, which is a daily task. It would be nice to read those verses, commit them to memory and practice them 24/7 but that certainly isn't reality, is it? Paul didn't get there overnight. He spent 14 years in the desert studying what to believe after his conversion. He was a constant work in process. Moses spent 40 years, David many years and Elijah 3 years, etc. My point is it's takes time, a lot of time, to truly live those verses in your everyday walk. Anyone who claims different is greater than Moses, David, Paul, Peter, Elijah and the list goes on and on.

Diggindeeper
Feb 7th 2013, 03:15 AM
These were scriptures given to all believers everywhere. But throughout the OP, I see dire warnings about abiding IN CHRIST and what happens to believers who won't 'abide' in Him.

In fact, I see warnings rather than OSAS, but maybe the interpretations depend on what 'lens' you are reading through...OSAS or NOSAS.

Walls
Feb 7th 2013, 03:17 AM
Rom 2:6-9 --- God will give eternal life to those who persistently continue in going good,
------------- but wrath and anger to the selfish who do not obey the truth and follow evil.
Rom 8:13-14 - If you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the
------------- Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live
------------- (for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God).
Rom 12:1-2 -- It is the good, acceptable, perfect will of God that you present your bodies
------------- as a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God (its your reasonable service).
1 Cor 6:9-10- Do not be deceived, unrighteous sinners will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 9:27 -- Paul disciplined his body unto subjection so he would not be disqualified.
1 Cor 12:12 - Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
1 Cor 15:1-2- You are saved by the gospel, if you hold fast that word
------------- which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
2 Cor 11:3 -- Satan deceived Eve by his craftiness, so beware that your minds
------------- may not be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2 Cor 13:5 -- Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, maybe you are disqualified.
Gal 5:19-21 - Those who practice works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:24 ---- To belong to Christ, crucify the passions and desires of the flesh.
Gal 6:7-9 --- Do not be deceived, God is not mocked - he who sows to his flesh will
------------- reap corruption, and he who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life,
------------- if he does not lose heart.
Eph 5:3-6 --- Do not be deceived, no sinner has any inheritance in the kingdom of God.
Eph 5:8-9 --- Walk as children of light, finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.
Eph 5:26-27 - Jesus will present to Himself a glorious church without spot
------------- or wrinkle, so that she should be holy and without blemish.
Phil 2:12 --- Work out your salvation with fear and trembling - God is working in you.
Phil 2:14-16- Become blameless and pure without fault, holding firmly to the word of life.
Col 1:22-23 - Jesus will present you holy, blameless, and above reproach,
------------- if you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast and unmovable.
Col 3:5-6 --- The wrath of God is coming upon those who don’t crucify their earthly nature.
Heb 3:12-15 - Beware of any evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God,
------------- lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
------------- For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning
------------- of our confidence steadfast to the end.
Heb 4:11 ---- Be diligent lest anyone fall according to examples of disobedience.
Heb 6:4-8 --- Those who have been enlightened, have experienced the Holy Spirit, have
------------- appreciated the Bible, if they fall away can never return to repentance
------------- (they have re-crucified the Son of God and subjected Him to public disgrace).
Heb 12:14 --- Pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
1 Pet 1:15-16 Be holy in all your conduct, because “Be holy, for I am holy”.
Rev 2—3 ----- JC: Christians must be overcomers in order to sit on Jesus’ throne, etc.
------------- JC: Christians must repent of their sins, wrong-doings, etc.
------------- JC: Christians who are lukewarm Jesus will vomit out of His mouth.
Rev 21:7-8 -- Overcomers will inherit all things, sinners will be in the lake of fire.
Rev 21:27 --- The impure, shameful, deceitful, etc. will never enter the New Jerusalem.
Rev 22:14-15- The obedient have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the City.

These Scripture passages support the doctrine of conditional security.

If you believe in eternal security (OSAS) … do you have any good explanations for:
Why are these verses in the NT?
Why were these warnings written to the churches?



If Prince Charles of England is born to the Queen and thus in line for the throne, he can never be "unborn" from Elizabeth. If he involves himself in criminal acts during his life before inheriting the throne, he may forfeit the throne and go to jail. But he can never be "unborn" from Elizabeth.

You have mixed rebirth with inheritance. Each Christian is born again FOR THE KINGDOM (John.3:3-6). He cannot be "unborn", for this work is a divine work by the Holy Spirit based on the works of Christ. But he can forfeit the Kingdom. Your verses above are true and valid for a Christian running a race for a prize. And this prize is the Kingdom of God. This is clearly shown in your verses posted above especially in;
1st Corinthians 6:9-10
Ephesians 5:3-6
Galatians 5:19-21

The type is also clearly shown in 1st Corinthians 10:1-11 as an EXAMPLE to Christians (v.11). Israel were saved by the Lamb from the Angel of Death. But that was not the prize. They were saved for their inheritance, the Good Land, Canaan. Of 600'000 men SAVED by the Lamb, 2 made it into the inheritance. The rest fell before they could inherit because of lack of faith and perfidious works.

Dilligence
Feb 7th 2013, 03:19 AM
Rom 2:6-9 --- God will give eternal life to those who persistently continue in going good,
------------- but wrath and anger to the selfish who do not obey the truth and follow evil.
Rom 8:13-14 - If you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the
------------- Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live
------------- (for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God).
Rom 12:1-2 -- It is the good, acceptable, perfect will of God that you present your bodies
------------- as a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God (its your reasonable service).
1 Cor 6:9-10- Do not be deceived, unrighteous sinners will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 9:27 -- Paul disciplined his body unto subjection so he would not be disqualified.
1 Cor 12:12 - Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
1 Cor 15:1-2- You are saved by the gospel, if you hold fast that word
------------- which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
2 Cor 11:3 -- Satan deceived Eve by his craftiness, so beware that your minds
------------- may not be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2 Cor 13:5 -- Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, maybe you are disqualified.
Gal 5:19-21 - Those who practice works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:24 ---- To belong to Christ, crucify the passions and desires of the flesh.
Gal 6:7-9 --- Do not be deceived, God is not mocked - he who sows to his flesh will
------------- reap corruption, and he who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life,
------------- if he does not lose heart.
Eph 5:3-6 --- Do not be deceived, no sinner has any inheritance in the kingdom of God.
Eph 5:8-9 --- Walk as children of light, finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.
Eph 5:26-27 - Jesus will present to Himself a glorious church without spot
------------- or wrinkle, so that she should be holy and without blemish.
Phil 2:12 --- Work out your salvation with fear and trembling - God is working in you.
Phil 2:14-16- Become blameless and pure without fault, holding firmly to the word of life.
Col 1:22-23 - Jesus will present you holy, blameless, and above reproach,
------------- if you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast and unmovable.
Col 3:5-6 --- The wrath of God is coming upon those who don’t crucify their earthly nature.
Heb 3:12-15 - Beware of any evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God,
------------- lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
------------- For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning
------------- of our confidence steadfast to the end.
Heb 4:11 ---- Be diligent lest anyone fall according to examples of disobedience.
Heb 6:4-8 --- Those who have been enlightened, have experienced the Holy Spirit, have
------------- appreciated the Bible, if they fall away can never return to repentance
------------- (they have re-crucified the Son of God and subjected Him to public disgrace).
Heb 12:14 --- Pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
1 Pet 1:15-16 Be holy in all your conduct, because “Be holy, for I am holy”.
Rev 2—3 ----- JC: Christians must be overcomers in order to sit on Jesus’ throne, etc.
------------- JC: Christians must repent of their sins, wrong-doings, etc.
------------- JC: Christians who are lukewarm Jesus will vomit out of His mouth.
Rev 21:7-8 -- Overcomers will inherit all things, sinners will be in the lake of fire.
Rev 21:27 --- The impure, shameful, deceitful, etc. will never enter the New Jerusalem.
Rev 22:14-15- The obedient have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the City.

These Scripture passages support the doctrine of conditional security.

If you believe in eternal security (OSAS) … do you have any good explanations for:
Why are these verses in the NT?
Why were these warnings written to the churches?



You picked these verses out but context is important in the way that you interpret them and who they are addressed to, when and why...I do not like to say "cherry picking" but this is what I see here.

There's a story that someone told me one time about rock climbing. The man who was talking about this, he is actually an owner of his own rock-climbing course. And he said that it's very rare to ever hear of a beginner or a first-timer who is a rock climber to ever fall. It's because they're very careful with what they're doing.

They're always looking at their hands, they're noticing where their feet are at, they're each step they take, each time they climb, it's going to be very, very careful. They're watching where they're going. He said it's always those who've done it hundreds of times who think that there's absolutely no way that nothing can happen to them.

He said it's those individuals, they're the ones that always fall, they're the ones that get hurt, and in some cases end up killing themselves. Why? Because they didn't take heed. That's how sometimes we can be as Christians. We can be so confident to the point that we think we can never fall and that Satan can never touch us, and that's when we fall from the grace of God.

We need to be like we were when we first became a Christian. Very eager to learn, always willing to be corrected, wanting to do only that which God would have us to do. We need to take heed, lest we fall.

Scooby_Snacks
Feb 7th 2013, 10:29 AM
You picked these verses out but context is important in the way that you interpret them and who they are addressed to, when and why...I do not like to say "cherry picking" but this is what I see here.

There's a story that someone told me one time about rock climbing. The man who was talking about this, he is actually an owner of his own rock-climbing course. And he said that it's very rare to ever hear of a beginner or a first-timer who is a rock climber to ever fall. It's because they're very careful with what they're doing.

They're always looking at their hands, they're noticing where their feet are at, they're each step they take, each time they climb, it's going to be very, very careful. They're watching where they're going. He said it's always those who've done it hundreds of times who think that there's absolutely no way that nothing can happen to them.

He said it's those individuals, they're the ones that always fall, they're the ones that get hurt, and in some cases end up killing themselves. Why? Because they didn't take heed. That's how sometimes we can be as Christians. We can be so confident to the point that we think we can never fall and that Satan can never touch us, and that's when we fall from the grace of God.

We need to be like we were when we first became a Christian. Very eager to learn, always willing to be corrected, wanting to do only that which God would have us to do. We need to take heed, lest we fall.

I like what you shared here Dilligence. The scripture that comes to mind for me in regard to entering into The Kingdom:

At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
(Matthew 18:1-4 ESV)

Humility leads to dependence, dependence (like a small child) upon Christ, leads to His Glory.

RogerW
Feb 7th 2013, 02:06 PM
You picked these verses out but context is important in the way that you interpret them and who they are addressed to, when and why...I do not like to say "cherry picking" but this is what I see here.

There's a story that someone told me one time about rock climbing. The man who was talking about this, he is actually an owner of his own rock-climbing course. And he said that it's very rare to ever hear of a beginner or a first-timer who is a rock climber to ever fall. It's because they're very careful with what they're doing.

They're always looking at their hands, they're noticing where their feet are at, they're each step they take, each time they climb, it's going to be very, very careful. They're watching where they're going. He said it's always those who've done it hundreds of times who think that there's absolutely no way that nothing can happen to them.

He said it's those individuals, they're the ones that always fall, they're the ones that get hurt, and in some cases end up killing themselves. Why? Because they didn't take heed. That's how sometimes we can be as Christians. We can be so confident to the point that we think we can never fall and that Satan can never touch us, and that's when we fall from the grace of God.

We need to be like we were when we first became a Christian. Very eager to learn, always willing to be corrected, wanting to do only that which God would have us to do. We need to take heed, lest we fall.

This is a wonderful way of explaining it Dilligence! I think also of the most terrifying words of Scripture "depart from me, I never knew you"! That is said to those who are doers of the gospel, so these calls for self-examination are necessary reminders for us to guard our hearts and minds. Make sure we are truly "in Christ", but also that Christ is in us. "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." Our life (Christians) is a life time of self-examination, and repentance; turning again and again back to Christ. Not by my faith or my works, but my life is hidden in HIM!

Dilligence
Feb 7th 2013, 02:09 PM
This is a wonderful way of explaining it Dilligence! I think also of the most terrifying words of Scripture "depart from me, I never knew you"! That is said to those who are doers of the gospel, so these calls for self-examination are necessary reminders for us to guard our hearts and minds. Make sure we are truly "in Christ", but also that Christ is in us. "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." Our life (Christians) is a life time of self-examination, and repentance; turning again and again back to Christ. Not by my faith or my works, but my life is hidden in HIM!

Amen to that...:thumbsup:

Evangelist
Feb 7th 2013, 06:19 PM
Thanks to all of you for some great responses!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMO, I have displayed great mercy by NOT posting ALL of Jesus' MANY WARNINGS from the gospels!
Here's a simple example ...
Jesus said if you do NOT forgive everyone for their trespasses, Father God will NOT forgive you of yours!
IMO, this is a flat-out blanket warning to everyone who reads it.
And it is either to be taken seriously or ignored.
I've had this revelation for years:
If a person dies with unforgiveness in his/her heart, they will NOT be welcome in Heaven!

This is a simple example of why I've been asking elsewhere:
Can a born-again Christian actually NOT be part of the elect?
I.E. Can he/she refuse to be sanctified (by the Holy Spirit) unto holiness?
I.E. Can he/she refuse to be an overcomer (Rev 2-3 and 21:7-8)?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was told this shows both sides of the coin, but does it?

Jude 21
... keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jude 24
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless …

Verse 24 doesn't say He WILL, just that He is able to.
IMO, He is able, if Jerry co-operates!
How is He able, if Jerry enforces his free-will and does not co-operate?
Will He over-ride Jerry's free will? No way.
Then they come back and say, "Jerry never was born-again."
And I say, "Jerry never was part of God's elect."

Diggindeeper
Feb 7th 2013, 06:25 PM
One can NEVER become the 'elect' until and unless they are born again. Jesus said:

John 3:1-3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

BroRog
Feb 7th 2013, 06:30 PM
Why are these verses in the NT?I believe in Eternal Security, not based on the passages you provide, but on the passages that actually talk about eternal security.

Nick
Feb 7th 2013, 09:59 PM
There's a story that someone told me one time about rock climbing. The man who was talking about this, he is actually an owner of his own rock-climbing course. And he said that it's very rare to ever hear of a beginner or a first-timer who is a rock climber to ever fall. It's because they're very careful with what they're doing.

They're always looking at their hands, they're noticing where their feet are at, they're each step they take, each time they climb, it's going to be very, very careful. They're watching where they're going. He said it's always those who've done it hundreds of times who think that there's absolutely no way that nothing can happen to them.

He said it's those individuals, they're the ones that always fall, they're the ones that get hurt, and in some cases end up killing themselves. Why? Because they didn't take heed. That's how sometimes we can be as Christians. We can be so confident to the point that we think we can never fall and that Satan can never touch us, and that's when we fall from the grace of God.

We need to be like we were when we first became a Christian. Very eager to learn, always willing to be corrected, wanting to do only that which God would have us to do. We need to take heed, lest we fall.

I really like this. I'm going to borrow it for my small group. Thanks.

Evangelist
Feb 7th 2013, 10:18 PM
One can NEVER become the 'elect' until and unless they are born again.
I'm sorry, but you don't seem to understand what I have been saying :help:

I'm hypothesizing that the born-agains are a subset of the elect,
i.e. one can be born-again, but not part of the elect,
i.e. not all born-agains are part of the elect,
i.e. the born-agains who co-operate with the Holy Spirit in being sanctified are elect.

Now, back to Jerry.
I say he can be born-again, but NOT co-operate in sanctification!
Peoples' excuse: he was never born again.
I say: sure he was born again, but refused to co-operate in sanctification.

Now, tell me, how can anyone say this scenario is this NOT possible?

Evangelist
Feb 7th 2013, 10:21 PM
I believe in Eternal Security, not based on the passages you provide,
but on the passages that actually talk about eternal security.
May I repeat what I asked you in the OP? ...

If you believe in eternal security (OSAS) … do you have any good explanations for:
Why are these verses in the NT?
Why were these warnings written to the churches?

RogerW
Feb 7th 2013, 10:23 PM
Thanks to all of you for some great responses!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMO, I have displayed great mercy by NOT posting ALL of Jesus' MANY WARNINGS from the gospels!
Here's a simple example ...
Jesus said if you do NOT forgive everyone for their trespasses, Father God will NOT forgive you of yours!
IMO, this is a flat-out blanket warning to everyone who reads it.
And it is either to be taken seriously or ignored.
I've had this revelation for years:
If a person dies with unforgiveness in his/her heart, they will NOT be welcome in Heaven!

Of course these warnings are to be taken seriously! This is why we cannot stand on our own merits, our own righteousness, but we MUST stand in the righteousness of Christ alone! When we are in Christ all our sins are forgiven!



This is a simple example of why I've been asking elsewhere:
Can a born-again Christian actually NOT be part of the elect?
I.E. Can he/she refuse to be sanctified (by the Holy Spirit) unto holiness?
I.E. Can he/she refuse to be an overcomer (Rev 2-3 and 21:7-8)?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was told this shows both sides of the coin, but does it?

Jude 21
... keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jude 24
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless …

Verse 24 doesn't say He WILL, just that He is able to.
IMO, He is able, if Jerry co-operates!
How is He able, if Jerry enforces his free-will and does not co-operate?
Will He over-ride Jerry's free will? No way.
Then they come back and say, "Jerry never was born-again."
And I say, "Jerry never was part of God's elect."


Listen carefully to the words of Jude you posted above...Jude is showing us how believers can overcome the devices of Satan and avoid being influenced and deceived by false teachers and hypocrites in the church. Christ MUST be the object of our faith; the Word of God is the foundation of faith; but we should not be content with our present knowledge (faith) and condition. We desire our faith, rather the object of our faith [Christ] to increase more and more in us (Lk 17:5; 2Th 1:3; 2Pe 3:18). Faith is strengthened through the ministry of the Word, praying through the Holy Spirit, keeping our love focused on Christ, and looking for the mercy of our Lord. We don't want to be counted as those who go astray, being deceived and tempted. The conclusion, look to Christ, for He is able to keep us from falling, and is able to present us faultless before His glorious appearing. We cannot keep oursleves, we MUST look to Christ; the object of our faith! Examine thyself!

BroRog
Feb 7th 2013, 10:30 PM
May I repeat what I asked you in the OP? ...

If you believe in eternal security (OSAS) … do you have any good explanations for:
Why are these verses in the NT?
Why were these warnings written to the churches?Can you be clear why you think warnings are unnecessary if eternal security is true?

Evangelist
Feb 7th 2013, 10:30 PM
You picked these verses out but context is important in the way that you interpret them
and who they are addressed to, when and why...I do not like to say "cherry picking" but this is what I see here.
You're just fortunate that I didn't post Jesus warnings in the gospels!
You know, they're called "The hard sayings of Jesus".

John MacArthur wrote a book, "The Gospel According to Jesus".
Tough, tough sayings of Jesus ... the parables and such!
Then he had to write another book, retracting a lot of what he had previously written.
Because ... too much heat ... from his fellow Baptists, I think it was.

RogerW
Feb 7th 2013, 10:31 PM
I'm sorry, but you don't seem to understand what I have been saying :help:

I'm hypothesizing that the born-agains are a subset of the elect,
i.e. one can be born-again, but not part of the elect,
i.e. not all born-agains are part of the elect,
i.e. the born-agains who co-operate with the Holy Spirit in being sanctified are elect.

Now, back to Jerry.
I say he can be born-again, but NOT co-operate in sanctification!
Peoples' excuse: he was never born again.
I say: sure he was born again, but refused to co-operate in sanctification.

Now, tell me, how can anyone say this scenario is this NOT possible?


Evangelist, one can believe and not be born again! Every man has faith...the question often neglected is the faith they possess natural or supernatural? If it is supernatural and by grace through hearing of faith it will never fail. It might stumble and even fall to even a great degree, but when we are truly born again, we will not utterly fall to damnation. For we are kept by the power of God!

1Pe*1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe*1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe*1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

So our faith can wain and wonder, but if it be of God it will never utterly fail. The warnings are for self-examination!!!

blessings & peace

Evangelist
Feb 7th 2013, 10:35 PM
Can you be clear why you think warnings are unnecessary if eternal security is true?
I didn't say they're not necessary.
I didn't say eternal security is true.
I'm presenting the case for conditional security.

I've noticed using colors doesn't really help at all ... people still get confused! Woe is me.

BroRog
Feb 7th 2013, 10:48 PM
I didn't say they're not necessary.
I didn't say eternal security is true.
I'm presenting the case for conditional security.

I've noticed using colors doesn't really help at all ... people still get confused! Woe is me.I understand you believe in conditional security, whatever that is. But I thought you were asking ME about the warnings.

Diggindeeper
Feb 7th 2013, 11:10 PM
I didn't say they're not necessary.
I didn't say eternal security is true.
I'm presenting the case for conditional security.

I've noticed using colors doesn't really help at all ... people still get confused! Woe is me.

I think what you are saying is that no one has 'free will' UNLESS they are among those secretly pre-chosen ages before they were ever born(the ELITE, according to the reformed/Calvinists).

But, they suddenly have 'free will' to continue 'in Christ' once they claim to be among those select FEW?
But, they have no 'free will' to begin with, because they were already pre-chosen? That does not make sense to me.

Evangelist
Feb 8th 2013, 01:04 AM
The warnings are for self-examination!!!
Okay, this is what I've been looking for.
We have several reasons for all of these warnings:
-- for self-examination
-- to enjoy a more blessed life here on earth
-- to gain better rewards
-- to gain a seat (even a throne) closer to the BIG throne
-- and there are others, which I can't remember at the moment

Dilligence
Feb 8th 2013, 01:07 AM
Okay, this is what I've been looking for.
We have several reasons for all of these warnings:
-- for self-examination
-- to enjoy a more blessed life here on earth
-- to gain better rewards
-- to gain a seat (even a throne) closer to the BIG throne
-- and there are others, which I can't remember at the moment

I am a new member here and I apologize if this seems harsh but these statements reminds me of Joel Osteen...

Watchman
Feb 8th 2013, 01:11 AM
I am a new member here and I apologize if this seems harsh but these statements reminds me of Joel Osteen...
Well that would certainly cause a whole squadron of red flags to be raised! Maybe I'm just grumpy because Joel's teeth are whiter than are mine! :D

Dilligence
Feb 8th 2013, 01:14 AM
Well that would certainly cause a whole squadron of red flags to be raised! Maybe I'm just grumpy because Joel's teeth are whiter than are mine! :D

:lol: Sorry, I did not get back with you on the other thread...I do not want to speak out of order here without a post that you actually made. Moving forward.

John146
Feb 8th 2013, 04:52 PM
[B][COLOR=#800000]

Of course these warnings are to be taken seriously! This is why we cannot stand on our own merits, our own righteousness, but we MUST stand in the righteousness of Christ alone!What if we don't? What does the following say can happen if we don't "hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end"?

Heb 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

This is clearly a warning given to believers since only a believer can hold the beginning of his or her confidence steadfast to the end. I say that because only a believer would have the confidence that must be held to the end in the first place. This indicates that if believers do not "hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end" then we could end up "departing from the living God".

Evangelist
Feb 8th 2013, 05:00 PM
I think what you are saying is that no one has 'free will' UNLESS they are among those secretly pre-chosen
ages before they were ever born(the ELITE, according to the reformed/Calvinists).
But, they suddenly have 'free will' to continue 'in Christ' once they claim to be among those select FEW?
But, they have no 'free will' to begin with, because they were already pre-chosen?
That does not make sense to me.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Everyone has been created with free will, right?

Those who have been chosen/elected before the foundation of the world
are given a small seed of faith due to the grace (undeserved favor) of God.
grace --> faith --> born-again --> sanctification (stage 1)

Let us review some passages re ... sanctification (stage 2):

• “… God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit
and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel …” (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)

• “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing (spiritually),
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. ... it pleased God through the
foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. ” (1 Corinthians 1:18, 21)

• “For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one …” (Hebrews 2:11)

• “For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14)

• "For as many as are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (Romans 8:14)

There are at least 2 stages of sanctification:
1) positional (set apart)
2) progressive (see above)

How y’all doin’ with stage 2?
Just curious, with a dash of exhortation thrown in for good measure.

RogerW
Feb 8th 2013, 05:12 PM
What if we don't? What does the following say can happen if we don't "hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end"?

Heb 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

This is clearly a warning given to believers since only a believer can hold the beginning of his or her confidence steadfast to the end. I say that because only a believer would have the confidence that must be held to the end in the first place. This indicates that if believers do not "hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end" then we could end up "departing from the living God".

Many professing believers do! That's why it is important to EXAMINE OURSELVES to see if we be of THE faith.

2Co*13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Nick
Feb 8th 2013, 08:05 PM
Many professing believers do! That's why it is important to EXAMINE OURSELVES to see if we be of THE faith.

2Co*13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Peter was of THE faith but his flesh was weak. On the most important night to stay vigilant and alert he fell asleep and then later denied Christ 3 times. "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" applied then and applies now. I can examine myself all day long but it doesn't change that truth.

RogerW
Feb 9th 2013, 12:56 AM
Peter was of THE faith but his flesh was weak. On the most important night to stay vigilant and alert he fell asleep and then later denied Christ 3 times. "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" applied then and applies now. I can examine myself all day long but it doesn't change that truth.

Our faith can also be weak, which is another reason why we MUST examine ourselves! Yes, even Peter before he was indwelt by the Holy Spirit, needed Christ to pray for him, that his faith should not fail. Once Peter's faith was strong he was able to strengthen others.

Lu*22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Lu*22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Nick
Feb 9th 2013, 01:12 AM
Our faith can also be weak, which is another reason why we MUST examine ourselves! Yes, even Peter before he was indwelt by the Holy Spirit, needed Christ to pray for him, that his faith should not fail. Once Peter's faith was strong he was able to strengthen others.

Lu*22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Lu*22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Of course our faith can be weak. That's why all the disciples ran for cover after Jesus was arrested and again, after Stephen was stoned. They were even too scared to even visit the tomb after the resurrection. Mary had to be the messenger. Fear is lack of faith. The disciples had fear and so do we. Lots of it too.