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Cyberseeker
Feb 11th 2013, 09:12 AM
It is often supposed the records of the 7-year cycle of Sabbath years (Leviticus 25:1-7, Deuteronomy 15:1) were lost. Commentaries suggest records were lost when the temple was destroyed. Is that true? Probably, but let us say that all of them were lost except one. :hmm: All we would have to do is count backwards from that date and we would pick up every Sabbath year as far back as Moses. Yes? And all we would have to do is count forward from that date and we would pick up every Sabbath year as far forward as Christ. What do you think?

OK. There is such an example found during the war of the Maccabees during the inter-testament period:


They came forth out of the city, because they had no victuals, being shut up there, for it was the year of rest to the land. And the king took Bethsura: and he placed there a garrison to keep it. And he turned his army against the sanctuary for many days: and he set up there battering slings, and engines and instruments to cast fire, and engines to cast stones and javelins, and pieces to shoot arrows, and slings. And they also made engines against their engines, and they fought for many days. But there were no victuals in the city, because it was the seventh year: and such as had stayed in Judea of them that came from among the nations, had eaten the residue of all that which had been stored up.
(Maccabees 6:49-53)

Bethsura surrendered to the Greek army in 164 BC because their supplies had run out, with no crops in the ground because it was fallow. The story has a better ending fortunately with the death of the tyrant Anticochus and victory over his forces of evil.

So, 164 BC is a solid date for finding the Sabbath years. Multiply groups of ‘seven’ backwards as well as forward from this date. See how many more Sabbath years can be found? :idea:

Cyberseeker

Vakeros
Feb 11th 2013, 10:39 AM
An interesting supposition, but based on the meaning of what the seventh year means. I can see why you suggest it is a Sabbath year, because of the word seventh. However if it were the Sabbath year, and if that were what was meant then I would expect them to say it was the Sabbath year and not the seventh.
If it were a Sabbath year then they would have been well provisioned, because for the Sabbath year you collect twice as much food to see you through the fallow year and to have some left over to plant. However the above text suggests the opposite, I.e the eighth year, after a Sabbath and therefore food is low.
However if we take it to mean seventh and not Sabbath, what do I suggest this means? Simply that there has been conflict in the land for seven years, so food is low, people could not harvest as they should.
The land couldn't be planted or harvested so it lay fallow for a year. A year of rest.

Vakeros
Feb 11th 2013, 10:40 AM
Also I treat Maccabees like Josephus, with truth in it, but not necessarily scripturally correct.

Vakeros
Feb 13th 2013, 07:14 AM
Some have suggested that 458 - 457 BC was a Jubilee year. This would make 164 - 163 BC a Jubilee year. That would mean the people would have stockpiled / stored food for two years plus extra for planting. However the passage quoted above from Maccabees gives different picture of not having enough food. So people weren't prepared for two years without a harvest. They weren't following any Sabbath or Jubilee.

Cyberseeker
Feb 13th 2013, 10:50 AM
Also I treat Maccabees like Josephus, with truth in it, but not necessarily scripturally correct.

Awww, and just when I was going to quote him. Oh well, here goes with yet another recorded Sabbath. It was from 38-37 BC on the same year that Herod conquered Jerusalem.


Now the Jews that were enclosed within the walls of the city fought against Herod with great alacrity and zeal (for the whole nation was gathered together… Now the three bulwarks were easily erected, because so many hands were continually at work upon it; for it was summer time, and there was nothing to hinder them in raising their works. . . they were distressed by famine and the want of necessaries, for this happened to be a Sabbatic year. ... This destruction befell the city of Jerusalem when Marcus Agrippa and Caninius Gallus were consuls of Rome on the hundred eighty and fifth olympiad. (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 14, Chapter 16, Sections 2-4)

As can be seen, its accurately dated. Dont ask me to go into the fine detail but what it boils down to is a Sabbath year 38/37 BC.

Would it help if we counted 'sevens' between the two examples given and see if they match up? Here goes:




164 BC
157
150
143
136
129
122
115
108
101
94
87
80
73
66
59
52
45
38 BC

Wow, not bad eh? Two confirmed Sabbaths and every Sabbath year in-between! :spin:

Fenris
Feb 13th 2013, 02:31 PM
Religious Jews observe this in Israel today. Presumably they have a count going to back to biblical times.

Vakeros
Feb 13th 2013, 11:35 PM
They do, but there is disagreement, even with Josephus's dates. His dates do tie in with 38-37 BC which is when Herod became undisputed ruler. However, their dating has the first temple destroyed at the end of the Sabbath year 588-587 BC. This ties in with Jubilees recorded in Ezekiel and also the Sabbath in 700-699 BC. This puts my dates out by one year. Which I actually prefer.
However this doesn't tie in with 1 Maccabees, which according to the Shmita isn't on the same cycle as given by Josephus. Also there is problems over the date of the Sabbath relating to Jerusalem's destruction. Some have it as the year after the Sabbath, others at the end of the Sabbath year.
If I pull my date back 1 year then, my Sabbath year is -1 BC to 1 AD, which makes the Sabbath year of 70 AD, which agrees with the Seder Olam. Which also means both temples were destroyed on Sabbaths.
Zuckermann who Cyberseeker uses based his dates on Josephus, but actually found the date for the siege of Beth-zur was out by one year. Not in the same cycle. The only dates we have as being correct in matching each other are the dates of the 1st temple. Those later on aren't in agreement with each other contrary to what Cyberseeker put above. Close put not right, nor in agreement with Seder Olam which was seen as being more correct than Josephus.

Fenris
Feb 14th 2013, 01:30 PM
I don't know how they agreed upon the dates, but I doubt it comes from Josephus or Maccabees, neither of which are biblical books.

Vakeros
Feb 14th 2013, 07:18 PM
I don't know how they agreed upon the dates, but I doubt it comes from Josephus or Maccabees, neither of which are biblical books.
No, but Zuckermann used Josephus to try to work it out. From what Jewish sources I can find they have disagreements as to which is the correct date.

Cyberseeker
Feb 14th 2013, 07:46 PM
Let's look at scriptural examples and see if they fit into the same 7-year grid as those from Maccabees and Josephus?

We find a strong anchor point confirming historical dates of the Sabbath years from the practice laid down by Moses to read the law to the whole congregation of Israel once every seven years.


And Moses commanded them, "At the end of every seven years, at the set time in the year of release, at the Feast of Booths, when all Israel comes to appear before the LORD your God at the place that he will choose, you shall read this law before all Israel in their hearing. Assemble the people, men, women, and little ones, and the sojourner within your towns, that they may hear and learn to fear the LORD your God, and be careful to do all the words of this law."
(Deut. 31:10-12)

There is a well-documented case of this practice taking place in the year Nehemiah traveled to Jerusalem. (Nehemiah 8:2) It was perhaps the most comprehensive effort recorded to follow the sacred regulations. Ezra the scribe read God's word daily throughout the feast of booths. The people wept; the people rejoiced; debts were cancelled (another indication of it being a Sabbath) and a profound revival broke out. The dates surrounding this revival are very specific and can be tracked on the lunar as well as Julian calendars to September 26th in the Sabbath year of 444 BC.

Now, lets see if the date fits in with the other ones?



444 BC
437
430
423
416
409
402
395
388
381
374
367
360
353
346
339
332
325
318
311
304
297
290
283
276
269
262
255
248
241
234
227
220
213
206
199
192
185
178
171
164 BC



Yup, they fit like a jigsaw puzzle! :wave:

Fenris
Feb 14th 2013, 08:04 PM
No, but Zuckermann used Josephus to try to work it out. From what Jewish sources I can find they have disagreements as to which is the correct date.

I think they may disagree on which year the temple was destroyed, not which year was the Shmita year.

Vakeros
Feb 14th 2013, 10:24 PM
No there doesn't seem to be consensus on which year is for the Sabbath.

Vakeros
Feb 14th 2013, 10:31 PM
Let's look at scriptural examples and see if they fit into the same 7-year grid as those from Maccabees and Josephus?
We find a strong anchor point confirming historical dates of the Sabbath years from the practice laid down by Moses to read the law to the whole congregation of Israel once every seven years.
There is a well-documented case of this practice taking place in the year Nehemiah traveled to Jerusalem. (Nehemiah 8:2) It was perhaps the most comprehensive effort recorded to follow the sacred regulations. Ezra the scribe read God's word daily throughout the feast of booths. The people wept; the people rejoiced; debts were cancelled (another indication of it being a Sabbath) and a profound revival broke out. The dates surrounding this revival are very specific and can be tracked on the lunar as well as Julian calendars to September 26th in the Sabbath year of 444 BC.

Now, lets see if the date fits in with the other ones?



444 BC
437
430
178
171
164 BC



Yup, they fit like a jigsaw puzzle! :wave:
A few problems with the above. Firstly if it were a Sabbath, then this would have been mentioned.No mention of this at this feast. Secondly, the arrival of Nehemiah and the building of the wall and its finish and requirement for people to come wasn't tied in directly to the Mosaic reading. It was simply the first opportunity.
Thirdly, was this reading immediately the walls were built? Nehemiah 13 actual suggests it was 12 years later when Nehemiah returned from Artaxerxes. Finally Nehemiah went to Jerusalem in 445-444BC, not 444-443BC, so wrong year being counted down. Finally Beth-zur wasn't captured in 164-163 BC but 163-162 BC.
So no connections between any of the dates. It looks good until you delve a little deeper.

Cyberseeker
Feb 14th 2013, 11:36 PM
... if it were a Sabbath, then this would have been mentioned.No mention of this at this feast.



Factories closed; cars parked outside church. :numbness: Huh? It must be Sunday?




Neh 8:1 exactly as described in Deut. 15 and 31. :numbness: Huh? It must be Sabbath year?


Ive been delving deep in this subject for a long time bro. Yes, the Sabbath year was 444 BC as shown.

Vakeros
Feb 15th 2013, 08:51 AM
Factories closed; cars parked outside church. :numbness: Huh? It must be Sunday?




Neh 8:1 exactly as described in Deut. 15 and 31. :numbness: Huh? It must be Sabbath year?


Ive been delving deep in this subject for a long time bro. Yes, the Sabbath year was 444 BC as shown.
I am not saying it wasn't connected, but cars parked outside church might mean it's a wedding on Saturday not a Sunday. The Jews had a reason to come together and celebrate and the opportunity was taken, especially as it doesn't seem to have happened in the last 70 to 150 years.
Also the Sabbath year would be starting September 445. You need to be consistent in which year you are counting, so from 445 to 163 or 444 to 162. Not in the same cycle!
It would also be from 445 to 38 which again isn't the same cycle. 38-37 is a clear date and they could well have had a Sabbath then, though I disagree with Josephus' reasoning. However according to other sources including one linked on a different Forum, the siege of Beth-zur concluded in 162.

Cyberseeker
Feb 15th 2013, 05:55 PM
Also the Sabbath year would be starting September 445.

The date is given in Nehemiah 1:1 which states that Nehemiah heard of Jerusalem's bad state in the month of Kislev (November) in the twentieth year. The Persian calendar places Artaxerxes' twentieth year between Nisan (March) 445 BC to Nisan 444 so by the time Nehemiah got to Jerusalem it would have clicked over to his twenty-first year. (Persian years started 1st Nisan)

However, Nehemiah 2:1 seems to contradict because Nehemiah says that he was granted permission to restore the city and build its walls in Nisan but he says it was still Artaxerxes' twentieth year?? To have Nisan later than Kislev (and yet in the same year) contradicts the Persian Nisan to Nisan reckoning. What happened? Then we realise Nehemiah was using a Tishri-to-Tishri (September) dating method rather than the Persian Nisan-to-Nisan (March) method. Nehemiah was following what was used by the kings of Judah earlier in their history. This method used by Nehemiah is confirmed by archaeological finds from that period.

So,


the report to Nehemiah occurred in Nov/Dec of 445 BC,
his trip to Jerusalem occurred in Mar/April 444 BC,
and the Sabbath year reading of the law started September 444.
The Sabbath year we are talking about was 444 BC - 443 BC.



... the arrival of Nehemiah and the building of the wall and its finish and requirement for people to come wasn't tied in directly to the Mosaic reading. It was simply the first opportunity.

No! :mad: You are trivializing the reading "as commanded for Israel" (Neh. 8:2) into 'any old get-together.' It referred to the Sabbath year reading commanded in Deut 31:10-12.

Fenris
Feb 15th 2013, 09:31 PM
No there doesn't seem to be consensus on which year is for the Sabbath.

People keep it in Israel, so there is consensus today.

Vakeros
Feb 15th 2013, 11:33 PM
People keep it in Israel, so there is consensus today.
If so, please find a source that confirms what the Sabbath year is. I haven't been able to find one yet!

Vakeros
Feb 15th 2013, 11:44 PM
The date is given in Nehemiah 1:1 which states that Nehemiah heard of Jerusalem's bad state in the month of Kislev (November) in the twentieth year. The Persian calendar places Artaxerxes' twentieth year between Nisan (March) 445 BC to Nisan 444 so by the time Nehemiah got to Jerusalem it would have clicked over to his twenty-first year. (Persian years started 1st Nisan)

However, Nehemiah 2:1 seems to contradict because Nehemiah says that he was granted permission to restore the city and build its walls in Nisan but he says it was still Artaxerxes' twentieth year?? To have Nisan later than Kislev (and yet in the same year) contradicts the Persian Nisan to Nisan reckoning. What happened? Then we realise Nehemiah was using a Tishri-to-Tishri (September) dating method rather than the Persian Nisan-to-Nisan (March) method. Nehemiah was following what was used by the kings of Judah earlier in their history. This method used by Nehemiah is confirmed by archaeological finds from that period.
So,

the report to Nehemiah occurred in Nov/Dec of 445 BC,
his trip to Jerusalem occurred in Mar/April 444 BC,
and the Sabbath year reading of the law started September 444.
The Sabbath year we are talking about was 444 BC - 443 BC.

So! :mad: You are trivializing the reading "as commanded for Israel" (Neh. 8:2) into 'any old get-together.' It referred to the Sabbath year reading commanded in Deut 31:10-12.
Not trivialising it as any old get together - it was a big thing.
Now if as you put above Nehemiah reached Jerusalem in Mar/April 444, then the walls were built in 52 days, so it would be about June/July 444 BC. This is still part of the 445 - 444 BC year. Nehemiah 8 mentions the 7th month, so that would be upon his arrival in April 444. Which if the Sabbath year, (yet note it isn't called such anywhere in Nehemiah though they read about the Sabbaths and agree to keep them, there is no mention of them doing so that year,) would be 445-444 BC according to your reckoning. Now Nehemiah 12 actually talks about a special dedication of the walls during which time the Book of Moses was read. This more likely was the time tied in with Nehemiah 8 as this is all one block, yet we learn that actually this was not until Artaxerxes 32nd year as Nehemiah went away and then came back again and then this all happened. This would be 433-432 BC. That date does work backwards as Sabbaths to 517-516 BC.
However following on from other information I have found I can see that the date might be out by one year. If the destruction of the temple occurred in 588-587 BC, then the date for the restoration may be 518-517 BC. Unfortunately for my reckoning I don't see how Nehemiah could have returned 434-433 BC though that is the date I need for my logic.

Cyberseeker
Feb 16th 2013, 05:05 AM
Now if as you put above Nehemiah reached Jerusalem in Mar/April 444, then the walls were built in 52 days, so it would be about June/July 444 BC. This is still part of the 445 - 444 BC year.

Wall finished early September actually, because the journey from Babylon to Jerusalem (camel class) took more than 3 months and the wall 52 days on top of that.


Nehemiah 8 mentions the 7th month, so that would be upon his arrival in April 444.

No. :no: You realise, I hope, that the 7th month is always Tishri (Sept/Oct) When I spoke previously of Jewish kings (regnal reigns) being reckoned from Tishri to Tishri I was not meaning the calendar year started then. Think of regnal years being like our tax year - 31st March - being offset from our calendar year start-point, 1st January. (School year is another example.)


And Moses commanded them, "At the end of every seven years, at the set time in the year of release, at the Feast of Booths, when all Israel comes to appear before the LORD your God at the place that he will choose, you shall read this law before all Israel in their hearing. Assemble the people, men, women, and little ones, and the sojourner within your towns, that they may hear and learn to fear the LORD your God, and be careful to do all the words of this law."
(Deut. 31:10-12)

The reading of the law on the 7th month of the Sabbath year 444 BC at the feast of booths began September 26th 444 BC. The Sabbath year we are talking about was 444 BC - 443 BC.

Vakeros
Feb 16th 2013, 08:12 PM
I have reread your post to make sure I understood your point and went back to what I could gain from other sources. It seems most hold the naming of months as per Nehemiah and Ezra come from their time of captivity and that they took those months from the Persians.
So translating the dates into comparable months as you seem to have done above leads to
Nehemiah 1:1 "Now it happened in the month of Chislev in the 20th year" - this is associated with Artaxerxes reign. You have Artaxerxes 20th year as going from Nisan 445 - Adar 444 BC. That is Mar - Apr 445 to Feb - Mar 444.
So this makes Chislev as Nov-Dec 445 of his reign, if this 20th year is the Persian 20th year of Artaxerxes reign.
In Neh 1:4 Nehemiah continues praying and fasting- which suggests a period of time.
In Neh 1:11 Nehemiah's prayer then ends with "give success to your servant today."
In Neh 2:1 We are told "In the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes" - as the Persians count the reign from Nisan to Adar, so if this Nisan is the start of the 20th year it must be Mar-Apr 445. So obviously a conflict here. However it can't be referring to Mar-Apr 444 BC as that would be the 21st year of King Artaxerxes reign.
Now you make the suggestion about Tishri, and counting the reign from that month. Thus determining that the second event must be being counted with Tishri - Elul or Sep - Oct to Aug - Sept and thus Nisan here is 444 BC. As in Jewish thought you point to reigns being counted from Tishri or Sep - Oct. You point to archaeological finds which uphold this.

However, lets us slightly different reasoning, based on what we know from scripture. Nehemiah was cup bearer for the king. He knew when the reigns of the Kings of Persia was calculated. He is the speaker in these chapters even if Ezra or someone else was the scribe.Therefore I can see no reason that he would have mixed up when Artaxerxes 20th year was. Now we note in Nehemiah 2 it ties the 20th year of the kings reign in directly. Which Cyberseeker puts as Mar - Apr 445 BC. That being so it would mean the walls finished by Elul at the latest 445 BC.
Now what about the discrepancy then with chapter 1. Firstly I note that it doesn't say, the 20th year of the kings reign, but simply the 20th year. What could be the difference? What immediately comes to mind is that the 20th year could be the length of time Nehemiah has been serving the King. Another idea ties into the controversy over dating exactly when Artaxerxes started reigning. Some sources have Artaxerxes co-reigning with his father from 474 BC. This could suggest the first event was counting 20 years from the start of his co-reign, which would be therefore 454 BC which is when Ussher has the date of the decree. Now 454 would be potentially 4 years after Ezra went to Jerusalem. It would help explain the long gap between Ezra going and Nehemiah going 13 years later. Though this suggests the length of time between Neh 1 and Neh 2 would be 8 or 9 years. Neh 2 doesn't give the sense of such a long break. What reads more logically is the the 20th year refers to Nov-Dec 446 BC. But then what is the 20th year counted from?
Let's look at the idea of Tishri for Jewish Kings introduced by Cyberseeker.
If we have the Jewish regnal year run from Sep 466 - Sep 465 as the first year, then the 20th year according to the Jewish system which would apply to Neh 1, but not Neh 2 would lead the 20th year to be Sep 446 to Sep 445. So Kislev of this 20th year would be Nov-Dec 446. This precedes Neh 2 being Nisan of the 20th year of the king which is Mar - Apr 445.
When did Artaxerxes come to the throne? Different dates are given. One date is July 465 BC. If correct this would actually fit the above correctly. For Kislev in 446 would be the 20th year of Artaxerxes reign according to a Tishri regnal reckoning, which matches Neh 1, and allow is to still be the 20th year of Nisan 445, this time according to Persian reckoning, which is directly referenced in the 2nd chapter, unlike the first.
So in conclusion, I find Nehemiah heard the news in Nov-Dec 446 BC in the 20th year (according to Jewish regnal counting) and thus mentioned in chapter 1 as the 20th year, and Nehemiah meets the king and makes his request of the king in the kings 20th year (according to Persian regnal counting) so without any problems.This would lead to the wall being finished by Elul of that year 445 BC. Separate to this is the question of which year the law was read. It has helped me to research this as this explains to me how the dates could be moved back one year. Thank you.

Fenris
Feb 18th 2013, 02:01 PM
If so, please find a source that confirms what the Sabbath year is. I haven't been able to find one yet!

We know what year it was first held and we know what year it is now. Not a heavy lift.

Vakeros
Feb 18th 2013, 04:30 PM
We know what year it was first held and we know what year it is now. Not a heavy lift.
Do we though? Is this an agreed date? What is your source?

Fenris
Feb 18th 2013, 05:26 PM
Do we though? Is this an agreed date? It must be an agreed upon date, because they all observe the Shmittah year at the same time.



What is your source?Presumably it's the talmud.

Cyberseeker
Feb 18th 2013, 05:38 PM
Hey Fenris, just on an aside. :confused Exodus 12:2,17 says,


"This month (Nisan) shall be for you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year for you …for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever."



When did the Shmita get changed from starting Nisan, to starting Tishri? Ive got my ideas but you may know of something from the Talmud. Its something that has me scratching my head.

Fenris
Feb 18th 2013, 05:43 PM
Hey Fenris, just on an aside. :confused Exodus 12:2,17 says,


"This month (Nisan) shall be for you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year for you …*for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever."



When did the Shmita get changed from starting Nisan, to starting Tishri? Ive got my ideas but you may know of something from the Talmud. Thanks.

There are 4 "new years" in Judaism for various different things. This is not as strange as it sounds, the secular calendar also has many "new years". The "calender year" starts on Jan 1, but the "school year" begins after labor day and the "fiscal year" begins (here in NYC at least) on July 1.

Vakeros
Feb 18th 2013, 06:20 PM
It must be an agreed upon date, because they all observe the Shmittah year at the same time.
Presumably it's the talmud.
Do they? Who are they? What date do they use? Presumably...?

Fenris
Feb 18th 2013, 06:24 PM
The next Shmitta year in Israel is September 25 2014 thru September 13 2015, which is year 5775 on the Jewish calendar.

Cyberseeker
Feb 18th 2013, 08:28 PM
The next Shmitta year in Israel is September 25 2014 thru September 13 2015, which is year 5775 on the Jewish calendar.



September 25 2014 equals 1st Tishri 5775. OK got that.




On same 7-yr cycle as 444 BC thru 443 BC. OK, got that too.


Hey Fenris, Jews are very good counters. :thumbsup:

Vakeros
Feb 18th 2013, 09:22 PM
The next Shmitta year in Israel is September 25 2014 thru September 13 2015, which is year 5775 on the Jewish calendar.
So this is the official date used in Israel based on the work of Maimonides from 1178. However there are some who argue it is 2 - 3 years out. Those who accept the book Seder Olam Rabbah based on the calculation of a Rabbi Yose ben Halafta in about 160 BC. Which is the main basis for Maimonides.
This calendar is used as a mathematical calendar for the months of the year. The evidence though is mounting with this 'official' endorsement of the date. Unfortunately also according to traditional Jewish calculations the first temple was destroyed in 421 BC - 490 years before the second time. Some problems therefore in this counting method.
So unfortunately following the Jewish date has left us still with two possible years - one official and one from just after Antiochus IV. Are either correct?

Cyberseeker
Feb 20th 2013, 02:08 PM
The prophet Jeremiah provides us with another Sabbath year. Speaking to the last king of Judah, Zedekiah, he reprimands him …

At the end of seven years each of you must set free the fellow Hebrew who has been sold to you and has served you six years; you must set him free from your service … You recently did what was right in my eyes by proclaiming liberty, each to his neighbor, and you made a covenant before me in the house that is called by my name, but then you turned around and profaned my name when each of you took back his male and female slaves, whom you had set free according to their desire, and you brought them into subjection to be your slaves.
(Jeremiah 34:14-16)

The year Jeremiah was saying this was 588 BC when Babylon was attacking Judean towns but before he had reached Jerusalem. So, the Sabbath was not on the same year as the temple got burned. Jeremiahs words, “You recently proclaiming liberty …” points the Sabbath as being 590, 591, 592, or thereabouts. Sounds about right.

Let’s see how the timeline looks? :hmm:




591 BC
584
577
570
563
556
549
542
535
528
521
514
507
500
493
486
479
472
465
458
451
444 BC

Vakeros
Feb 20th 2013, 02:55 PM
If you read from Jeremiah 34 v 1 then Jerusalem is under siege. From verse 8 The text makes clear that it is a covenant with the people at Jerusalem at that time. So this suggests the Sabbath is that year. Recently, doesn't mean 3 years ago. Recently is tied in with the siege of Jerusalem. Therefore it would be either 589 / 588 BC or 588 / 587 BC. The text isn't more exact than that. However recently can't mean 3 years ago within context. It would have to be 591 / 590 BC for your timeline, but context has it being localised to that place and within the time frame of the attacks by Nebuchadnezzar. So the above quote actually supports 589 / 588 BC as being the Sabbath. This points to 588 / 587 being the start of a new Sabbath cycle.
The 7 weeks start - that leads down from, 588 to:
BC 588/587, 581, 574, 567, 560, 553, 546, 539/538 - 7 weeks completed - a messiah (an anointed one) Cyrus appears. Next year a Jubilee - Jews return to Israel.
532, 525, 518/517 - desolation finished. Temple rededicated.
511, 504, 497, 490, 483, 476, 469, 462, 455, 448, 441, 434 - walls dedicated, Book of the Law of Moses read. 62 weeks start.
427, 420, 413, 406, 399, 392, 385, 378, 371, 364, 357, 350, 343, 336, 329, 322, 315, 308, 301, 294, 287, 280, 273, 266, 259, 252, 245, 238, 231, 224, 217, 210, 203,
196, 189, 182, 175, 168, 161, 154, 147, 140, 133, 126, 119, 112, 105, 98, 91, 84, 77, 70, 63, 56, 49, 42, 35, 28, 21, 14, 7, AD 1/2 - 62 weeks completed - a messiah, Jesus is born.
Note these dates are the start of the year, many events actually occur in the following year according to our numbering system. Hence my adding of second year in some cases to clarify this.

Cyberseeker
Feb 20th 2013, 09:19 PM
If you read from Jeremiah 34 v 1 then Jerusalem is under siege. From verse 8 The text makes clear that it is a covenant with the people at Jerusalem at that time. So this suggests the Sabbath is that year. Recently, doesn't mean 3 years ago. Recently is tied in with the siege of Jerusalem. Therefore it would be either 589 / 588 BC or 588 / 587 BC. The text isn't more exact than that.

The text is more exact when you read 2 Kings 25:1 with it. The siege of the various fortified towns lasted 2 years starting 589 BC. So at the very latest, the Sabbath would have been 589 BC. I say 591 BC fits comfortably although the precise year could be either side of that. Those are our parameters IMHO.

Vakeros
Feb 20th 2013, 11:09 PM
The text is more exact when you read 2 Kings 25:1 with it. The siege of the various fortified towns lasted 2 years starting 589 BC. So at the very latest, the Sabbath would have been 589 BC. I say 591 BC fits comfortably although the precise year could be either side of that. Those are our parameters IMHO.
Well let's see what 2 Kings 25 tells us. 10th month 10th day the siege started so that is Tevet or Dec - Jan. As it is the 10th day then that is almost certainly Jan.
When does the siege end 4th month 9th day less than 2 years later. So that is Tammuz or June - July. As it is the 9th day it is probably July. So the siege lasted 18 months.
Nothing in 2 Kings 25 about the siege of the various fortified towns only about Jerusalem. If it started Jan 589 BC, it finished July 587 BC. This is the time frame for the Sabbath as Jeremiah 34 v 1 makes clear this happened in the same years as the siege. No chance for it to be 591 BC.
The very earliest is 590 / 589 BC. However the context suggests that it was only agreed once the siege had already started - this probably in a last desperate attempt to avert God's wrath. That would make it 589 / 588 BC. The city falls in 588 / 587 BC. So Jeremiah was speaking in 588 BC you put above. So it was during the year the Sabbath was meant to be held or immediately after. Still can't see a reason for it to be 591 unless you are stating that it was a Sabbath year before the siege started, contrary to Jeremiah 34 v 1.