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rom826
Feb 11th 2013, 06:46 PM
Rom 3:12
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Seems to me that if we are saved by our own faith or our own works, we would all be in trouble because nobody's work or faith meets God's standard. The other option is that it is by God's grace through the work and faith of His only begotten son.

guero
Feb 11th 2013, 07:02 PM
We are saved by obeying the commandments of the Christ in the Gospels. Any interpretation of any other book of the Bible that contradicts one of Christ's commandments is false.

RabbiKnife
Feb 11th 2013, 07:08 PM
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

LandShark
Feb 11th 2013, 07:08 PM
I would say neither... we are saved by God's grace alone. Yes, he applies that grace to us when we come in faith, but it isn't the faith that saves, it is Him extending favor to us we don't deserve. Blessings!

Watchman
Feb 11th 2013, 07:30 PM
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

.................................................. .......................: ::amen:

Nick
Feb 11th 2013, 07:46 PM
I think James says it best. James 2: 18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

I believe that's where the coined saying, "faith without works is dead" came from.

markedward
Feb 11th 2013, 08:06 PM
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
2.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Why does everyone quote verses 8-9, but conveniently leave out verse 10? In Paul's thought, 'good works' are a necessary and vital outflow of 'faith'. Good trees make good fruit. Can't find any good fruit? Maybe the good tree is missing.

Vakeros
Feb 11th 2013, 08:18 PM
God's grace is for all, but the method of delivery is via faith. There are many who are headed to destruction because they don't accept His method. Without faith there is no appropriation of grace. It is like creation. God the Father created through the Son.
We have to accept His way every day.

Noeb
Feb 11th 2013, 08:48 PM
Why faith or works only? Why not hope? :D

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

RabbiKnife
Feb 11th 2013, 08:52 PM
2.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Why does everyone quote verses 8-9, but conveniently leave out verse 10? In Paul's thought, 'good works' are a necessary and vital outflow of 'faith'. Good trees make good fruit. Can't find any good fruit? Maybe the good tree is missing.

Probably because the fruit is a product, not a cause.

John146
Feb 11th 2013, 09:01 PM
Rom 3:12
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Seems to me that if we are saved by our own faith or our own works, we would all be in trouble because nobody's work or faith meets God's standard.This is what you are concluding from those verses you quoted? Can you show exactly how those verses are leading you to this conclusion?

Why would God command us to repent and to believe the gospel (Acts 17:30-31, Mark 1:15, etc.) if we can't meet His standard? Is He telling us to do something that we can't actually do? I don't see how that makes any sense. It has to be our own faith. The verses you quoted aren't saying that we are incapable of believing the gospel. Those verses show how we tend to go astray in the absence of something to make us aware of our lost condition, which is what the gospel does for us. It teaches people that they are sinners and are in need of a Savior to save them from the penalty of their sin and that they need to repent and believe in Christ in order to be saved. Once people are informed of their condition then they have to choose how to respond and there's nothing to indicate that people don't have the ability to respond with their own repentance and faith.


The other option is that it is by God's grace through the work and faith of His only begotten son.How can that be when scripture is clear that we are responsible to believe in Christ? It has to be our faith since scripture repeatedly indicates that we are responsible to believe from our own hearts.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This clearly speaks of something we have to do (confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead) so how does it make sense to suggest that it's something Jesus does instead? It has to be our faith because God makes us responsible to believe in our hearts.

John146
Feb 11th 2013, 09:08 PM
Probably because the fruit is a product, not a cause.Right. That verse (Eph 2:10) is speaking of good works that we do after we become saved by grace through faith in Christ. Once the Spirit has come to dwell in us then we are equipped to do the good works God has for us to do. Without the Holy Spirit's power we couldn't do those things that He has for us to do.

Here are the capabilities of those who aren't saved when it comes to bearing fruit and doing the good works God has for His people to do:

John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Here is the condition of those who are saved:

Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Without Christ we can do nothing. With Christ we can do all things.

percho
Feb 11th 2013, 09:22 PM
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19

By what means did God through the Son of God bring that about?

By grace through the faith.

Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, the Son of the Living God; Learned, and was obedient unto death even the death of the cross, becoming sin for us. That was, "the faith," of Eph. 2:8 that was the, "obedience of faith," of Rom. 1:5 & 16:26
God the Father of Jesus the Christ raised the dead Jesus from the dead unto life, never to die again. Gal. 1:1 That is the grace of Eph. 2:8 We by the gift of the Holy Spirit become heirs of that same grace of life. 1 Peter 3:7 God the Father in raising Jesus from the dead by his Holy Spirit renewed Jesus with the Holy Spirit, Father into thy hands I commend my spirit, witch could then be shed on us;

And Noeb is correct that gift of the Spirit shed abundantly on us, then gives us the hope of that same life eternal. Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

That same Spirit also begins to create us in Christ Jesus unto good works.


I can produce scripture for all I wrote.

Vhayes
Feb 11th 2013, 09:25 PM
2.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Why does everyone quote verses 8-9, but conveniently leave out verse 10? In Paul's thought, 'good works' are a necessary and vital outflow of 'faith'. Good trees make good fruit. Can't find any good fruit? Maybe the good tree is missing.

Because works follow faith just as verse 10 follows verses 8 & 9. Gotta have the "tree" of faith before you can have the "fruit" of works and you have to have the "grace" of the seed and the soil" before you can have the tree.

No one is denying there are works we should do.

percho
Feb 11th 2013, 09:35 PM
This is what you are concluding from those verses you quoted? Can you show exactly how those verses are leading you to this conclusion?

Why would God command us to repent and to believe the gospel (Acts 17:30-31, Mark 1:15, etc.) if we can't meet His standard? Is He telling us to do something that we can't actually do? I don't see how that makes any sense. It has to be our own faith. The verses you quoted aren't saying that we are incapable of believing the gospel. Those verses show how we tend to go astray in the absence of something to make us aware of our lost condition, which is what the gospel does for us. It teaches people that they are sinners and are in need of a Savior to save them from the penalty of their sin and that they need to repent and believe in Christ in order to be saved. Once people are informed of their condition then they have to choose how to respond and there's nothing to indicate that people don't have the ability to respond with their own repentance and faith.

How can that be when scripture is clear that we are responsible to believe in Christ? It has to be our faith since scripture repeatedly indicates that we are responsible to believe from our own hearts.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This clearly speaks of something we have to do (confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead) so how does it make sense to suggest that it's something Jesus does instead? It has to be our faith because God makes us responsible to believe in our hearts.

John is that something we can do in order that God will give us the Holy Spirit? Or would that be something that we could do because God through the Holy Spirit has translated us from unbelief unto belief.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 1:21,22 Who by him (Jesus) do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. (How?) Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:

rom826
Feb 11th 2013, 09:42 PM
This is what you are concluding from those verses you quoted? Can you show exactly how those verses are leading you to this conclusion?

Why would God command us to repent and to believe the gospel (Acts 17:30-31, Mark 1:15, etc.) if we can't meet His standard? Is He telling us to do something that we can't actually do? I don't see how that makes any sense. It has to be our own faith. The verses you quoted aren't saying that we are incapable of believing the gospel. Those verses show how we tend to go astray in the absence of something to make us aware of our lost condition, which is what the gospel does for us. It teaches people that they are sinners and are in need of a Savior to save them from the penalty of their sin and that they need to repent and believe in Christ in order to be saved. Once people are informed of their condition then they have to choose how to respond and there's nothing to indicate that people don't have the ability to respond with their own repentance and faith.

How can that be when scripture is clear that we are responsible to believe in Christ? It has to be our faith since scripture repeatedly indicates that we are responsible to believe from our own hearts.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This clearly speaks of something we have to do (confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead) so how does it make sense to suggest that it's something Jesus does instead? It has to be our faith because God makes us responsible to believe in our hearts.

In the part of your post that I bolded, you are saying that I said or suggested something I never said or suggested. I am not sure but could it because you have some preconceived notions of what I believe? If you don't know what I believe, just ask. I never said (or even suggested) that we do not have to do anything. I am well aware of Romans 10:9 says and agree with you that we have to do what Romans 10:9 says in order to be saved. The thing is we can do romans 10:9 a thousands times. Unless God puts His seed in us and we get born again of His seed when we do romans 10:9, we would not get saved from doing Roman 10:9. If Jesus Christ had not gone to the cross and God did not do the work of raising Him from the dead, doing Rom 10:9 would not have accomlished anything. Yes we have to do Romans 10:9 to get saved. When we do it, it is God who saves us by His grace. It is not our work(confessing Jesus as Lord) nor our faith ( believing God raised Him from the dead) that saves us. It is God who saves us when we do it. I think "landshark" in post #4 explained it pretty well also.

rom826
Feb 11th 2013, 09:50 PM
Why faith or works only? Why not hope? :D

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Whose hope? Ours or God's? ( Rom 8:20).

LandShark
Feb 11th 2013, 09:53 PM
God's grace is for all, but the method of delivery is via faith. There are many who are headed to destruction because they don't accept His method. Without faith there is no appropriation of grace. It is like creation. God the Father created through the Son.
We have to accept His way every day.

Just a thought Vakeros... you don't have to accept it. I think the template for salvation was revealed in Egypt. There, a people who did nothing to earn salvation, had a God show mercy on them and send in a prophet to deliver them. Moses in that sense was a picture of messiah.... and so we are in our Egypt with no power to release ourselves. God has sent in another prophet, His Messiah, and even though we have done NOTHING to earn His grace, He is extending it to us. Faith is not a delivery mechanism... faith is hearing the word of God and standing in expectation that what we heard will come to pass. "Standing in expectation" is the faith aspect... we heard, we believed, we stood. God can save us regardless... He has all power, we have none.

Nick
Feb 11th 2013, 10:18 PM
2.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Why does everyone quote verses 8-9, but conveniently leave out verse 10? In Paul's thought, 'good works' are a necessary and vital outflow of 'faith'. Good trees make good fruit. Can't find any good fruit? Maybe the good tree is missing.

I with you 100% on that. Just on a more personal note, my faith has been extremely bolstered by works. I thought I had faith before but I was just deluding myself. If I truly believed and had faith my greatest ambition would be to become more like Christ in my works. I would want to strive for humility and be of love and service to others. That's the acid test for true faith, in my opinion.

Watchman
Feb 12th 2013, 01:59 AM
I with you 100% on that. Just on a more personal note, my faith has been extremely bolstered by works. I thought I had faith before but I was just deluding myself. If I truly believed and had faith my greatest ambition would be to become more like Christ in my works. I would want to strive for humility and be of love and service to others. That's the acid test for true faith, in my opinion.
Works perfect, mature, & complete faith...that is what James wrote about. Paul stated it a bit differently, saying, The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Expressing itself through love = working, yes?

percho
Feb 12th 2013, 02:39 AM
Just a thought Vakeros... you don't have to accept it. I think the template for salvation was revealed in Egypt. There, a people who did nothing to earn salvation, had a God show mercy on them and send in a prophet to deliver them. Moses in that sense was a picture of messiah.... and so we are in our Egypt with no power to release ourselves. God has sent in another prophet, His Messiah, and even though we have done NOTHING to earn His grace, He is extending it to us. Faith is not a delivery mechanism... faith is hearing the word of God and standing in expectation that what we heard will come to pass. "Standing in expectation" is the faith aspect... we heard, we believed, we stood. God can save us regardless... He has all power, we have none.

Amen Brother! It is God that is in the saving business.

TomH
Feb 12th 2013, 03:11 AM
Oh ye of little faith. It's been beaten across the net like a Wimblton tennis ball.

Bu mention that faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains, you get the deer in the headlights stare.

The verse,"show me your faith without works and I'll show you my faith by my works, tells me one thing.

It's one man speaking to another. It's the old, " I have faith in God. You? I'm not sure about!"

God sees our faith spiritually. We need not " prove" to God.

Man spends way too much time measuring either the works of others, or concerned that his works aren't seen.

If I should lay a sack of food at the widows door at midnight, so she'll know someone knows, but she doesn't feel she "owes" me, and is saved from being confronted as a charity case and her dignity remains intact, I have done good works.

Should I ask my neighbor to go along so he knows my faith produces works? After all, I want him to SEE my works don't I? That's what Scripture says!

Personally, if I do good works in secret and my neighbor finds out, I'd just as soon it were kept between us.

Too many people run past a starving man in the alley to be seen helping the young lady through the door.

Noeb
Feb 12th 2013, 05:08 AM
Whose hope? Ours or God's? ( Rom 8:20).exactly ;) ............

Nick
Feb 12th 2013, 05:55 AM
Oh ye of little faith. It's been beaten across the net like a Wimblton tennis ball.

Bu mention that faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains, you get the deer in the headlights stare.

The verse,"show me your faith without works and I'll show you my faith by my works, tells me one thing.

It's one man speaking to another. It's the old, " I have faith in God. You? I'm not sure about!"

God sees our faith spiritually. We need not " prove" to God.

Man spends way too much time measuring either the works of others, or concerned that his works aren't seen.

If I should lay a sack of food at the widows door at midnight, so she'll know someone knows, but she doesn't feel she "owes" me, and is saved from being confronted as a charity case and her dignity remains intact, I have done good works.

Should I ask my neighbor to go along so he knows my faith produces works? After all, I want him to SEE my works don't I? That's what Scripture says!

Personally, if I do good works in secret and my neighbor finds out, I'd just as soon it were kept between us.

Too many people run past a starving man in the alley to be seen helping the young lady through the door.

Interesting take on James 2:18, but what you posted makes sense to me and is also in-line with what Jesus taught.

TomH
Feb 12th 2013, 10:48 AM
Interesting take on James 2:18, but what you posted makes sense to me and is also in-line with what Jesus taught.

The greatest works I've seen is from an anonymous Christian, who gave in secret, and the only one the recipient could praise?

Was God.

THAT is Grace works.

grams
Feb 12th 2013, 11:17 AM
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



There is no other way !

God sent HIS only begotten Son to the cross for the sins of the world. And who every will believe and have faith shall be saved.

We can not work our way to heaven !

God took care of our salvation ! What a wonderful GOD we have !!!!!!!!

John146
Feb 12th 2013, 06:15 PM
John is that something we can do in order that God will give us the Holy Spirit?When you say "that", what are you referring to exactly?


Or would that be something that we could do because God through the Holy Spirit has translated us from unbelief unto belief.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.This isn't saying that the Holy Spirit forces us to say that Jesus is Lord. The Holy Spirit reveals that to people, but we have to decide whether to confess and acknowledge it or not. The Holy Spirit can be resisted:

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

John146
Feb 12th 2013, 06:28 PM
In the part of your post that I bolded, you are saying that I said or suggested something I never said or suggested.My mistake then. I must have misunderstood what you were saying at some point. It happens. I wasn't intending to put words in your mouth, so to speak.


I am not sure but could it because you have some preconceived notions of what I believe? Nope. I had no idea what you believed regarding this topic before reading your post. I was only going by my understanding of what you were saying. I'm sure you're aware that people misunderstand what others are saying on here all the time. We all communicate differently and it's not easy to follow what people are saying at times, including me. It's just the way it is. We just have to clarify what we're saying in those cases and move on.


If you don't know what I believe, just ask.I thought I did. It was an honest mistake. There's no reason to be offended just because someone misunderstands something you say. It happens all the time on here. Sometimes it's because someone isn't communicating clearly. Sometimes, it's just because people communicate differently. And sometimes it's because someone isn't reading what the other person is saying carefully.


I never said (or even suggested) that we do not have to do anything.I'd explain to you why it came across that way to me, but what good would that do? It would be a waste of time. I just appreciate that you took the time to clarify your point and I'll try again to address it.


I am well aware of Romans 10:9 says and agree with you that we have to do what Romans 10:9 says in order to be saved. The thing is we can do romans 10:9 a thousands times. Unless God puts His seed in us and we get born again of His seed when we do romans 10:9, we would not get saved from doing Roman 10:9.Okay, now you are the one who misunderstood me, but I'm not blaming you. I should have been more clear. I'm saying that in your view it's nothing we do on our own volition. You're saying that we only do it because God basically does it for us. Isn't that basically what you're saying? If so, I disagree with that view. Again, this is how your view is coming across to me. If I'm still misunderstanding it then it's not on purpose and I ask that you clarify it further for me.


If Jesus Christ had not gone to the cross and God did not do the work of raising Him from the dead, doing Rom 10:9 would not have accomlished anything. Yes we have to do Romans 10:9 to get saved. When we do it, it is God who saves us by His grace. It is not our work(confessing Jesus as Lord) nor our faith ( believing God raised Him from the dead) that saves us. It is God who saves us when we do it. I think "landshark" in post #4 explained it pretty well also.Do you see the act of someone placing their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior as being something someone decides to do on their own volition in response to hearing the gospel and in response to God's promptings? Do you believe it's possible that someone could choose to reject it if God reveals to them that they need to confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in Him in order to be saved?

rom826
Feb 13th 2013, 08:40 PM
I thought I did. It was an honest mistake. There's no reason to be offended just because someone misunderstands something you say. It happens all the time on here. Sometimes it's because someone isn't communicating clearly. Sometimes, it's just because people communicate differently. And sometimes it's because someone isn't reading what the other person is saying carefully.



I was not offended at all. I will try to explain my position more carefully.


I am well aware of Romans 10:9 says and agree with you that we have to do what Romans 10:9 says in order to be saved. The thing is we can do romans 10:9 a thousands times. Unless God puts His seed in us and we get born again of His seed when we do romans 10:9, we would not get saved from doing Roman 10:9.


Okay, now you are the one who misunderstood me, but I'm not blaming you. I should have been more clear. I'm saying that in your view it's nothing we do on our own volition. You're saying that we only do it because God basically does it for us. Isn't that basically what you're saying? If so, I disagree with that view. Again, this is how your view is coming across to me. If I'm still misunderstanding it then it's not on purpose and I ask that you clarify it further for me.

I am a little confused how you got from my quote that I am saying that God does Romans 10:9 for us. To clarify, I believe that we do Roman 10:9 of our own volition. We have free will and need to choose whether to do Romans 10:9 or not. God might lead us in that direction but He does not take our free will from us. After we do Romans 10:9 by our free will, God saves us by His grace.

I do want to point out that there is works and faith involved in Romans 10:9. The faith is believing God raised Him from the dead. The work is confessing Him as Lord. Upon doing the work and faith of Romans 10:9 God does the saving. We do not save ourselves. We have nothing to boast about.

Let's say someone was drowning in the ocean and a ship comes near the person. The captain of the ship sees this person drowning. He throws a rope out and tells the drowning person to grab the rope and believe he will be able to rescue him. The drowning person does as the captain says and the captain pulls him to safety. Who would you say saved this man from drowning in this scenario. Was it the graciousness of the captain who saved the drowning man? Or was it the great faith and work of the drowning man who saved himself? I would say it was due to the graciousness of the captain.

I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say. Let me know if not.

percho
Feb 13th 2013, 09:31 PM
When you say "that", what are you referring to exactly?

This isn't saying that the Holy Spirit forces us to say that Jesus is Lord. The Holy Spirit reveals that to people, but we have to decide whether to confess and acknowledge it or not. The Holy Spirit can be resisted:

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

I am saying only those who have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit can confess.

Jesus called his disciples and told them he would send the Holy Spirit to them.

Acts 2:39 For the promise (gift of the Holy Spirit) is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.

But ye believe not because ye are not, ----- of my sheep. John 10:26 All are in unbelief (can not believe) until called unto belief. Paul was in unbelief until called unto belief.
My sheep hear my voice, (are called) and I know them, (open their eyes and ears to seeing and understanding) (The result) and they follow me. Through Jesus and the gift of the Holy Spirit they become believers and are able to confess Jesus as Lord. John 10:27

Is this call unto belief open to all? Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off. I think we are born into the world in unbelief and are broken off.

But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Romans 11:4 Did they not bow to Baal because of some righteousness within themselves or was it because God had reserved them to himself not to do so?

Verse 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

rom826
Feb 13th 2013, 10:30 PM
I am saying only those who have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit can confess.

Jesus called his disciples and told them he would send the Holy Spirit to them.

Acts 2:39 For the promise (gift of the Holy Spirit) is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.

But ye believe not because ye are not, ----- of my sheep. John 10:26 All are in unbelief (can not believe) until called unto belief. Paul was in unbelief until called unto belief.
My sheep hear my voice, (are called) and I know them, (open their eyes and ears to seeing and understanding) (The result) and they follow me. Through Jesus and the gift of the Holy Spirit they become believers and are able to confess Jesus as Lord. John 10:27

Is this call unto belief open to all? Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off. I think we are born into the world in unbelief and are broken off.

But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Romans 11:4 Did they not bow to Baal because of some righteousness within themselves or was it because God had reserved them to himself not to do so?

Verse 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

so basically you are saying that God is a repecter of persons?

percho
Feb 14th 2013, 04:05 AM
so basically you are saying that God is a repecter of persons?

Not at all. I am saying that the following is how God does things.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Romans 9:15,16

rom826
Feb 14th 2013, 04:21 AM
Not at all. I am saying that the following is how God does things.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Romans 9:15,16

So you are saying that God chooses some people to go to hell through no choice of their own?

rom826
Feb 14th 2013, 04:22 AM
Not at all. I am saying that the following is how God does things.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Romans 9:15,16

So you are saying that God chooses some people to go to hell through no choice of their own?

John146
Feb 14th 2013, 07:20 PM
I am a little confused how you got from my quote that I am saying that God does Romans 10:9 for us. Nevermind that. It's not worth it for me to take the time to explain why it came across that way to me. I'm just trying to understand what you actually believe.


To clarify, I believe that we do Roman 10:9 of our own volition. We have free will and need to choose whether to do Romans 10:9 or not. God might lead us in that direction but He does not take our free will from us. After we do Romans 10:9 by our free will, God saves us by His grace.

I do want to point out that there is works and faith involved in Romans 10:9. The faith is believing God raised Him from the dead. The work is confessing Him as Lord. Upon doing the work and faith of Romans 10:9 God does the saving. We do not save ourselves. We have nothing to boast about.

Let's say someone was drowning in the ocean and a ship comes near the person. The captain of the ship sees this person drowning. He throws a rope out and tells the drowning person to grab the rope and believe he will be able to rescue him. The drowning person does as the captain says and the captain pulls him to safety. Who would you say saved this man from drowning in this scenario. Was it the graciousness of the captain who saved the drowning man? Or was it the great faith and work of the drowning man who saved himself? I would say it was due to the graciousness of the captain.

I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say. Let me know if not.Yes, it did and I agree with what you said here. Thanks for clarifying your view.

John146
Feb 14th 2013, 07:32 PM
I am saying only those who have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit can confess.But people are saved upon receiving the Holy Spirit. Paul was saying that salvation results from confession believing and confessing. You somehow have people being saved first and then confessing but that contradicts what Paul said.


Jesus called his disciples and told them he would send the Holy Spirit to them.

Acts 2:39 For the promise (gift of the Holy Spirit) is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.

But ye believe not because ye are not, ----- of my sheep. John 10:26 All are in unbelief (can not believe) until called unto belief.Many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 22:14). Some people reject God's call and that is why many are called but not all who are called are chosen and saved. You seem to think that God only calls some, but not all people to salvation. That is not true.


Paul was in unbelief until called unto belief. Of course.


My sheep hear my voice, (are called) and I know them, (open their eyes and ears to seeing and understanding) (The result) and they follow me. Through Jesus and the gift of the Holy Spirit they become believers and are able to confess Jesus as Lord. John 10:27You have the order different than what we see in scripture.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Notice the order here. People must receive/accept and believe in Christ first before they receive the Spirit and "become children of God". You have people receiving the Spirit first before they accept and believe in Christ. That contradicts the order of things that scripture gives us.


Is this call unto belief open to all? Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off. I think we are born into the world in unbelief and are broken off. Do you understand that unbelief has to do with knowingly and willingly rejecting God and the truth? How can a baby be in unbelief? A baby is incapable of either belief or unbelief.


But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Romans 11:4 Did they not bow to Baal because of some righteousness within themselves or was it because God had reserved them to himself not to do so?To refuse to bow to Baal and to humbly surrender oneself to God has nothing to do with someone being righteous in and of themselves. That would give cause for boasting. It's just the opposite. People must choose whether to serve God or not (Josh 24:15). If someone chooses to humble themselves and acknowledge their unrighteousness and they are justified for that (see Luke 18:9-14) then it's clearly not a case of them being justified "because of some righteousness within themselves". People are justified as a result of humbling themselves and acknowledging their unrighteousness rather than trying to prove some supposed righteousness within themselves.

John146
Feb 14th 2013, 07:34 PM
Not at all. I am saying that the following is how God does things.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Romans 9:15,16Yes, this is how God does things and no one would disagree with that, but what is your understanding of what this is saying? Do you read a passage like this while keeping other passages in mind, such as this one:

Rom 11:30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

percho
Feb 14th 2013, 11:26 PM
So you are saying that God chooses some people to go to hell through no choice of their own?

I did not say that God is choosing people to go anywhere. Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

I believe God for his purpose is calling out a people for his name. They are to reign with Christ at his appearing and his kingdom. At that time, it will be required to have eternal incorruptible life.

And as it is appointed unto men once, to die but after this the judgment: Hebrews 9:40

We speak as if judgement is presently going on and death is the gates unto what was judged. Judgement will come after resurrection.

mailmandan
Feb 18th 2013, 12:58 PM
Rom 3:12
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Seems to me that if we are saved by our own faith or our own works, we would all be in trouble because nobody's work or faith meets God's standard. The other option is that it is by God's grace through the work and faith of His only begotten son.

We are saved by grace through faith, NOT works, but believers are created in Christ Jesus FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Not saved by works but for good works. Our faith is only as good as the object that we place it in. Christ's finished work of redemption is the object of our faith and the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Jesus lived the sinless perfect life that we could never live and meets God's standard and we receive His imputed righteousness when we believe/trust in Him for salvation (Romans 4:5-6).

Gadgeteer
Feb 19th 2013, 04:12 AM
Rom 3:12
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Seems to me that if we are saved by our own faith or our own works, we would all be in trouble because nobody's work or faith meets God's standard. The other option is that it is by God's grace through the work and faith of His only begotten son.

We are saved by God's grace only, not by works (Eph2:8). If it be by works, then grace is no longer grace (Rm11:6).

Now, in James2:14, every translation I've seen gets James' words wrong; in asking "me-dunamai", it is a negative question expecting only an answer of "no".

"That faith (which produces no works) can NOT save you, CAN it!" That's the right translation; it's an exclamation, and not a real question.


But --- James does not assert we are saved by works; rather, "I by my works will show you my faith".

Faith that is saved, receives Jesus and the Spirit, indwelling presences; that is what salvation is, a UNION between creature (you and me!) and Creator (Jesus!). It embodies Gal2:20:

"I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me."


Therefore --- it is CHRIST who works THROUGH us, both to will and to work according to His good purpose; we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, by HIS working THROUGH us. Philip2:12-13!

And we are not saved by good works; but we WHO ARE saved, by definition do good works, because of "Him-in-us". If we have not the good works, we have not Him in us...

chad
Feb 19th 2013, 05:25 AM
IMO, we are saved by faith in Christ Jesus apart from the law. Works make our faith practical and useful. Faith and works IMO is, faith perfected.

Vhayes
Feb 19th 2013, 05:38 AM
We are saved by NEITHER faith nor works. We are saved by GRACE. The vehicle is faith. It is NOT of any works except the finished and perfect work of Christ.

Gadgeteer
Feb 19th 2013, 06:09 AM
We are saved by NEITHER faith nor works. We are saved by GRACE. The vehicle is faith. It is NOT of any works except the finished and perfect work of Christ.

Well said. :-)

The part faith plays is clear in places like 1Pet1:9 --- we receive as the outcome of our faith salvation.

Point-man
Oct 23rd 2017, 10:40 PM
We are saved by obeying the commandments of the Christ in the Gospels. Any interpretation of any other book of the Bible that contradicts one of Christ's commandments is false.

We are save by Grace through Faith and that not of ourselves. Now I can break it down finer if you like.

randyk
Oct 24th 2017, 05:07 AM
We are save by Grace through Faith and that not of ourselves. Now I can break it down finer if you like.

The Scriptures are one thing, but how we understand what Scriptures say is another thing. It matters if we have the right kind of faith. Not just "any old faith" will do. We must have faith in Christ. Faith is, in one sense, a work. In another sense it is not. It is a work in the sense that it is a choice we make to work with God. But it is not a work in the sense that it is not an inept means of self-justification.

To act without Christ is a work that is inept. But even works done under the Law were an example of obeying God, and yet were an inept form of self-justification. To offer animal sacrifices was a purely temporary self-justification. Priestly duties done on behalf of Israel were an example of obedience to God, but they were also inept means of serving God in the eternal sphere of things. Men could only be redeemed on a temporary basis under the Law.

All of this comes under the purview of inept works that are not part of our faith. Our faith is itself a work, but not a work that justified us apart from Christ. On the contrary, our faith is the choice to enter into the works of Christ which do justify us.

It's complicated! ;)

Eyelog
Oct 24th 2017, 06:34 AM
I can break it down finer if you like.

Point-man, I'd like you to break it down finer.

Eyelog
Oct 24th 2017, 07:14 AM
It's complicated! ;)

We are saved by living faith ala James 2:
18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

But living faith requires both: Belief and actions which acknowledge Christ as Lord. Romans 10:9-10; Luke 6:46-49.

mailmandan
Oct 24th 2017, 10:36 AM
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. James gives us the test for genuine faith: like the faith of Abraham, it results in works. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous."

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with a living faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her living faith. She proved her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all true believers prove theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not the works; rather, life in faith is the source of the works.

In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

jesusinmylife
Oct 24th 2017, 12:14 PM
Point-man, I'd like you to break it down finer.

Me too.
This one post per thread just isn't cutting it for me.