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The Holy Dude
Feb 16th 2013, 12:52 PM
Dont know where to post this but oh well.

people say lucifer (satan) had free will and he chose to rebel against god but how is that possible ?.

Because god knows everything from start to end he knew that lucifer was going to rebel because it was part of gods plan and if he didnt turn against god then gods plan would never have went to well plan. So lucifer had no choice in the matter even if he chose not to rebel, it was gods will and plan for him to rebel, for the world to be the way it is now

EarlyCall
Feb 16th 2013, 02:20 PM
Dont know where to post this but oh well.

people say lucifer (satan) had free will and he chose to rebel against god but how is that possible ?.

Because god knows everything from start to end he knew that lucifer was going to rebel because it was part of gods plan and if he didnt turn against god then gods plan would never have went to well plan. So lucifer had no choice in the matter even if he chose not to rebel, it was gods will and plan for him to rebel, for the world to be the way it is now

May I ask then what your final conclusion is? Is it that from the beginning God wanted Christ to come and die for man? In other words, this was God's plan all along? His original plan and His will? In short, it was never that satan and man woudl not rebel against Him but rather that they would o that he could send His Son to suffer and die for us?

I just want to be sure I understand what you are saying.

The Holy Dude
Feb 16th 2013, 03:33 PM
but why did god want a world like this. God obviously chose for satan to rebel agaisnt him, and satan had no choice, because if he didnt then there would be no need for christ to come and die. But why did Jesus even need to come and die. the world was perfect with adam and eve being perfect beings. Why create a world knowing its just going to be corrupt. God created sin and then gave man free will. obviously god knew no good would come from that.

God's legacy
Feb 16th 2013, 03:59 PM
God created millions of spirit beings with free moral choice.

His intention was to produce beings who would accept His way and live like Him forever.

They were perfect in their ways from the day they were created.

Lucifer a major angel had freedom to choose-he had the capacity to choose evil and rebelled.

Was this God's plan? No. Lucifer chose evil from his glorious position among the angels and seeked to overthrow God's throne.

The same scenario happened on earth with mankind-we were given the choice between good and evil.

Christ having to come to save mankind was plan B because of our original sin. It wasn't His original plan.

The Holy Dude
Feb 16th 2013, 04:17 PM
it must have been god plan. Gods plan was to send jesus to die for our sins. we would not have the knowledge of good and evil if it was not for adam and eve and none of this was possible if satan did not rebel against god. If satan did not rebel, then there would be no need for jesus to die on the cross and adam and eve would not have been temped to eat the fruit from the tree. So therefore back to the OP lucifer must not have had free will and had no choice to rebel because god knew he was going to do it before the angels where even created

EarlyCall
Feb 16th 2013, 04:40 PM
but why did god want a world like this. God obviously chose for satan to rebel agaisnt him, and satan had no choice, because if he didnt then there would be no need for christ to come and die. But why did Jesus even need to come and die. the world was perfect with adam and eve being perfect beings. Why create a world knowing its just going to be corrupt. God created sin and then gave man free will. obviously god knew no good would come from that.

I wanted to be sure I understood where you were coming from before I responded.

God created all things good. He also gave satan and the angels and us free will and a choice. God does not want our love if it means forcing it. Forced love is not love. Do we force God's love toward us? It is impossible, and how much greater then is God's love toward us when we know He freely gives it and all the more so when He does so when we are so undeserving of it!

God did not send His Son to suffer and die; He sent His Son to save us. Unfortunately that required Christ to suffer most horribly and to die. In other words, it was never God's plan that Christ should die, no, it was God's alternate plan that Christ should offer us His salvation in spite of us screwing up God's original plan. We read of God's original plan when we read of His creation story.

We do not love a God who plans on sacrificing His Son. That is not a loving God. It is however a most unfathomable loving God who plans to send His Son to save us, even though that will require His Son to so horribly suffer and die. Do you see the difference?

Vhayes
Feb 16th 2013, 04:43 PM
Just because God knows the outcome of something does not mean He will force it to happen.

EarlyCall
Feb 16th 2013, 04:49 PM
it must have been god plan. Gods plan was to send jesus to die for our sins. we would not have the knowledge of good and evil if it was not for adam and eve and none of this was possible if satan did not rebel against god. If satan did not rebel, then there would be no need for jesus to die on the cross and adam and eve would not have been temped to eat the fruit from the tree. So therefore back to the OP lucifer must not have had free will and had no choice to rebel because god knew he was going to do it before the angels where even created

Your argument is circular because you think that knowing is a causal agent. Knowing a thing does not cause it to come to be. Knowing means nothing more than that: to know. It does not go beyond that and has nothing to do with the events that come to be: it simply knew they would.

Sojourner
Feb 16th 2013, 04:53 PM
God knew what was going to happen before it happened, and had a plan in place even before it was needed. Why do you assume that means satan was created a mindless robot without free will, and predestined to rebel? There is no cut off point with that idea. If satan was predestined to sin against God, then so were the rebellious angels, and those among mankind who reject Salvation. If so, then God essentially created a little puppet show just to amuse Himself, with some created to be saved, and some created to be damned. Are you of the Calvinist persuasion, by chance?

The Holy Dude
Feb 16th 2013, 05:25 PM
God knew what was going to happen before it happened, and had a plan in place even before it was needed. Why do you assume that means satan was created a mindless robot without free will, and predestined to rebel? There is no cut off point with that idea. If satan was predestined to sin against God, then so were the rebellious angels, and those among mankind who reject Salvation. If so, then God essentially created a little puppet show just to amuse Himself, with some created to be saved, and some created to be damned. Are you of the Calvinist persuasion, by chance?God says He is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His own will." (Eph 1:11). If God "is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His OWN WILL," then everything must be pre-arranged. How can God be running EVERYTHING, and yet satan and human beings also have "free will"? Think about this. We are told the Lamb (Jesus) was "slain from the foundation of the world," (Rev. 13:8) meaning that the Plan of Salvation, including Jesus' death for sinners, was planned BEFORE man was ever created. The Plan of Salvation REQUIRED that Jesus die on the cross. Therefore, Jesus had to come in the form of being that had the "ability" to die. Before Adam and Eve sinned, they were incapable of dying. They did not become subject to death until after they had sinned. If Adam and Eve, or their offspring had not sinned, neither they, nor Jesus would have been subject to death. Jesus could not have died and no one would have needed a Saviour anyway. There is only one independent "free" will in the universe, and that is the will of God

Love Fountain
Feb 16th 2013, 05:44 PM
God says He is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His own will." (Eph 1:11). If God "is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His OWN WILL," then everything must be pre-arranged. How can God be running EVERYTHING, and yet satan and human beings also have "free will"? Think about this. We are told the Lamb (Jesus) was "slain from the foundation of the world," (Rev. 13:8) meaning that the Plan of Salvation, including Jesus' death for sinners, was planned BEFORE man was ever created. The Plan of Salvation REQUIRED that Jesus die on the cross. Therefore, Jesus had to come in the form of being that had the "ability" to die. Before Adam and Eve sinned, they were incapable of dying. They did not become subject to death until after they had sinned. If Adam and Eve, or their offspring had not sinned, neither they, nor Jesus would have been subject to death. Jesus could not have died and no one would have needed a Saviour anyway. There is only one independent "free" will in the universe, and that is the will of God


Hello,


Is God a murderer and a rapist?

Accordingly by what is being suggested, God made the murderer murder and the rapist rape.

The answer was shared with you in a prior post, LOVE IS NOT FORCED OR IT IS NOT LOVE.

Are you wanting to blame God for your short comings and the wrongs you've done?

People always want to make God a know it all. Yet it is written He who knew no sin was made to know sin!!

Some things to consider! The issue is about accountability and accepting responsibility for ones own choices.

Hope this helps!

Bless you,
Love Fountain

Love Fountain
Feb 16th 2013, 05:56 PM
Dont know where to post this but oh well.

people say lucifer (satan) had free will and he chose to rebel against god but how is that possible ?.

Because god knows everything from start to end he knew that lucifer was going to rebel because it was part of gods plan and if he didnt turn against god then gods plan would never have went to well plan. So lucifer had no choice in the matter even if he chose not to rebel, it was gods will and plan for him to rebel, for the world to be the way it is now


Hello,

It is written how it was possible as follows:

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.kjv


He was made good until iniquity was found in him! He wasn't made that way! He did it to himself as it is written!

Bless you,
Love Fountain

The Holy Dude
Feb 16th 2013, 06:01 PM
Hello,


Is God a murderer and a rapist?

Accordingly by what is being suggested, God made the murderer murder and the rapist rape.

The answer was shared with you in a prior post, LOVE IS NOT FORCED OR IT IS NOT LOVE.

Are you wanting to blame God for your short comings and the wrongs you've done?

People always want to make God a know it all. Yet it is written He who knew no sin was made to know sin!!

Some things to consider! The issue is about accountability and accepting responsibility for ones own choices.

Hope this helps!

Bless you,
Love Fountain God CREATED sin and ALLOWED sin to enter this world

Love Fountain
Feb 16th 2013, 06:09 PM
God CREATED sin and ALLOWED sin to enter this world


It must be hard to blame others for ones own actions instead of repenting and accepting responsibility for ones own wrong doings?

REPENT and be healed! Put down the heavy weight!


Bless you,
Love Fountain

RogerW
Feb 16th 2013, 06:27 PM
God says He is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His own will." (Eph 1:11). If God "is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His OWN WILL," then everything must be pre-arranged. How can God be running EVERYTHING, and yet satan and human beings also have "free will"? Think about this. We are told the Lamb (Jesus) was "slain from the foundation of the world," (Rev. 13:8) meaning that the Plan of Salvation, including Jesus' death for sinners, was planned BEFORE man was ever created. The Plan of Salvation REQUIRED that Jesus die on the cross. Therefore, Jesus had to come in the form of being that had the "ability" to die. Before Adam and Eve sinned, they were incapable of dying. They did not become subject to death until after they had sinned. If Adam and Eve, or their offspring had not sinned, neither they, nor Jesus would have been subject to death. Jesus could not have died and no one would have needed a Saviour anyway. There is only one independent "free" will in the universe, and that is the will of God

Greetings THD & Welcome to the Community!

If we truly contemplate this, then we discover that Christ as the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world is the remedy for sin before sin entered into creation. Why did God provide Himself the Lamb before man sinned if sin has not always been planned from eternity? What amazing comfort (so many miss), knowing that God has orchastrated ALL things according to the counsel of His own will, and there is nothing any created thing can do to frustrate God's plan to have a people for Himself. The only beings with true free will WERE Adam, Eve & Christ. The serpent was created more cunning and crafty then any other created thing, so his will is not free. He can only do that which is according to the will of God. This is abundantly clear when we read the book of Job. Since the fall of mankind, you are absolutely CORRECT...God alone is the only One with independent free will.

blessings & peace

RogerW
Feb 16th 2013, 06:34 PM
God CREATED sin and ALLOWED sin to enter this world

I would word it slightly different! God created evil; i.e. He created the serpent, who introduced sin (deception) into creation. So while God is the Creator of all things in heaven and earth, and His plan to save a people for Himself depended upon sin entering into creation, it cannot be said that God forced (through providence) any created being to sin. But if sin had not entered in then mankind would not need a Savior, they could save themselves, nor could man truly know God, because man would have no knowledge of good (love), which God alone is.

Sojourner
Feb 16th 2013, 06:35 PM
God says He is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His own will." (Eph 1:11). If God "is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His OWN WILL," then everything must be pre-arranged. How can God be running EVERYTHING, and yet satan and human beings also have "free will"? Think about this. We are told the Lamb (Jesus) was "slain from the foundation of the world," (Rev. 13:8) meaning that the Plan of Salvation, including Jesus' death for sinners, was planned BEFORE man was ever created. The Plan of Salvation REQUIRED that Jesus die on the cross. Therefore, Jesus had to come in the form of being that had the "ability" to die. Before Adam and Eve sinned, they were incapable of dying. They did not become subject to death until after they had sinned. If Adam and Eve, or their offspring had not sinned, neither they, nor Jesus would have been subject to death. Jesus could not have died and no one would have needed a Saviour anyway. There is only one independent "free" will in the universe, and that is the will of God

Then we can only hope and pray that we are among those God predestined to Salvation rather than damnation. Yet, ironically, if it's God's will that we are not among those appointed unto Salvation--despite an unwavering faith in the promises of God, and dedicating our lives to serving Him--then our faith is in vain, and is pointless and futile. A sad, uncertain existence if you ask me. Again, do you or do you not embrace the ideas of predestination espoused in the Calvinist view of Salvation?

fewarechosen
Feb 16th 2013, 06:38 PM
God CREATED sin and ALLOWED sin to enter this world

God didnt create sin that is no where in scripture, He most definatly let it enter

we sin when we choose

God did not create our choice

He created us with the ability to choose to sin, but that is not to say He made us choose to sin, just made us free to do so

the sin lies with us in choosing that which is contrary to God

1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

sin is a work of the devil

Bandit
Feb 16th 2013, 06:42 PM
Dont know where to post this but oh well.

people say lucifer (satan) had free will and he chose to rebel against god but how is that possible ?.

Because god knows everything from start to end he knew that lucifer was going to rebel because it was part of gods plan and if he didnt turn against god then gods plan would never have went to well plan. So lucifer had no choice in the matter even if he chose not to rebel, it was gods will and plan for him to rebel, for the world to be the way it is now

Do you remember those old cartoons in which some character would be trying to make a moral decision, and "poof", on one shoulder an angel would appear pulling for good, and "poof", on the other shoulder a devil would appear pulling for evil? Well, if you remember such, then what you are asking is this: when satan went to make a decision, did "poof" God appear on one shoulder pulling for good, while "poof" on the other shoulder God appeared pulling for evil! So do you really think God was arguing for evil? Remember, someone important once said, "A house divided against itself will not stand." So did God divide His own house?

Love Fountain
Feb 16th 2013, 06:50 PM
(Remember, someone important once said, "A house divided against itself will not stand." So did God divide His own house?


Exactly!! He did not divide His own house! Great question!

As it is written:

Luke 11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. kjv


Bless you,
Love Fountain

fewarechosen
Feb 16th 2013, 06:57 PM
God says He is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His own will." (Eph 1:11). If God "is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His OWN WILL," then everything must be pre-arranged. How can God be running EVERYTHING, and yet satan and human beings also have "free will"? Think about this. We are told the Lamb (Jesus) was "slain from the foundation of the world," (Rev. 13:8) meaning that the Plan of Salvation, including Jesus' death for sinners, was planned BEFORE man was ever created. The Plan of Salvation REQUIRED that Jesus die on the cross. Therefore, Jesus had to come in the form of being that had the "ability" to die. Before Adam and Eve sinned, they were incapable of dying. They did not become subject to death until after they had sinned. If Adam and Eve, or their offspring had not sinned, neither they, nor Jesus would have been subject to death. Jesus could not have died and no one would have needed a Saviour anyway. There is only one independent "free" will in the universe, and that is the will of God

your thinking with a human mind and human logic and think God is held to our understanding of things

you think just because He knows what you will choose freely before you choose it and knows where to place you before you make that choice that that somehow forced you to do something.

He knew the enemy would sow tares but He didnt create the enemy to sow tares, the enemy chose to, not Gods fault He knows what someone is going to choose, we are all still free to choose.

dont fall for human logic its frail

human logic says you cant walk on water

when you say there is only one independent free will in the universe, well of course that is God everything else is dependant on Him and nothing is independent of Him

depends on definition of free will - i cant take a thought and grow 6 feet taller, my will is not that free. God did not make me with that power of free will. our free will is dictated by Gods perameters, within those parameters lies are free will and choices.

here is a scripture

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

this scripture is saying choose

if we had no choice and no free will then by definition it would not be a choice, God wouldnt say we had a choice if we didnt, it really is that simple

Love Fountain
Feb 16th 2013, 07:01 PM
But if sin had not entered in then mankind would not need a Savior, they could save themselves, nor could man truly know God, because man would have no knowledge of good (love), which God alone is.

Hello,

By analogy, what you're saying is that when a parent has a new born babe, in order for the parent to teach that new born babe love, that certain parent must first sin against that babe?

Would that mean we should hurt our babes so we can teach them love?

God forbid!! We teach our children love by loving them! We heal them with love when they are hurt! God is our example, He works all things to good by leading with good!

Hope this helps!

Bless you,
Love Fountain

Love Fountain
Feb 16th 2013, 07:12 PM
What amazing comfort (so many miss), knowing that God has orchastrated ALL things according to the counsel of His own will, and there is nothing any created thing can do to frustrate God's plan to have a people for Himself.


Hello,

It is written otherwise as follows:

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren. kjv


God does not tempt therefore God does not "orchestrate" temptation either.

Hope this helps!

Bless you,
Love Fountain

watchinginawe
Feb 18th 2013, 04:32 AM
God says He is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His own will." (Eph 1:11). If God "is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His OWN WILL," then everything must be pre-arranged. How can God be running EVERYTHING, and yet satan and human beings also have "free will"? Think about this.

Hello THD, and welcome to Bibleforums. Clearly something doesn't add up there, and it is quite the brain teaser. The sum of your argument above leads to a conclusion, and thus the "therefore" is that free will must not exist.

However, what if God, in accordance with the counsel of His own will, decides that beings with free will is how He chooses for things to operate? You are excluding that possibility by suggesting that God would all of a sudden "lose control" and thus could no longer be sovereign. However, that seems an unnecessary limitation. We may not understand how exactly that operates, but reading the Scirptures, in my humble opinion, clearly reveals that God created certain beings with the ability to perform, or not, His will. So there is some portion of God's will that He is happy to see exercised, or not, by those beings given the facility by God to comprehend and perform it. Some have suggested that God, because He is bound by His character and nature including foreknowledge, was obligated to bring about the best kind of universe possible (from an infinite number of possibilities). Seeing that a universe which included created beings which exercised moral determinism would result in bringing glory to God through His love towards them in salvation, then that is why God created in this way and thus why this paradox exists.

dtomsol
Feb 19th 2013, 02:44 PM
Dont know where to post this but oh well.

people say lucifer (satan) had free will and he chose to rebel against god but how is that possible ?.

Because god knows everything from start to end he knew that lucifer was going to rebel because it was part of gods plan and if he didnt turn against god then gods plan would never have went to well plan. So lucifer had no choice in the matter even if he chose not to rebel, it was gods will and plan for him to rebel, for the world to be the way it is now

Isaiah 14 answers the question that is of most importance which is: Who was Lucifer? Although many believe Lucifer to be a "fallen angel" from heaven, let us read what Isaiah 14 states in regards to the identity of Lucifer:

Isaiah 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Who was the King of Babylon during the time of Isaiah 14? None other than Nebuchadnezzar. Lucifer is a reference to Nebuchadnezzar.

rom826
Feb 19th 2013, 05:57 PM
If Lucifer did not have free will, that would make God responsible for all the devil's actions. God is not evil. There is no wickedness in Him

Francis Drake
Feb 19th 2013, 10:48 PM
God says He is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His own will." (Eph 1:11). If God "is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His OWN WILL," then everything must be pre-arranged. How can God be running EVERYTHING, and yet satan and human beings also have "free will"? Think about this. We are told the Lamb (Jesus) was "slain from the foundation of the world," (Rev. 13:8) meaning that the Plan of Salvation, including Jesus' death for sinners, was planned BEFORE man was ever created. The Plan of Salvation REQUIRED that Jesus die on the cross. Therefore, Jesus had to come in the form of being that had the "ability" to die. Before Adam and Eve sinned, they were incapable of dying. They did not become subject to death until after they had sinned. If Adam and Eve, or their offspring had not sinned, neither they, nor Jesus would have been subject to death. Jesus could not have died and no one would have needed a Saviour anyway. There is only one independent "free" will in the universe, and that is the will of God

This all sounds vaguely familiar. I am sure that I have seen people gathered in the streets somewhere proclaiming this principle. I recall that they especially do it when there is some disaster or other. Mmmm
Ah, yes I've got it now, what was it? "Inshallah, inshallah," they all cry as they wail and beat their breasts in unison, meaning of course, "It is the will of God". Yes, strangely, they were all muslims not Christians, and The Holy Dude's description perfectly matches ALLAH, the God of Islam, much more than the God of Abraham Isaac and Israel.
In Islam, nobody has any freewill whatsoever. Everything is the will of Allah, everything that happpens, he has caused it. Man has no input whatsoever.
A boat capsizes and sinks, it is the will of Allah, not because of massive overloading. A child gets sick and dies, it is the will of Allah never because of the Islamic militants who have destroyed the crop....etc. A daughter is raped, it is the will of Allah, not the will of the rapist.

Despite calling him Yahweh, God, or El Shadaii, many Christians worship a God who is more Allah than Elohim.

RabbiKnife
Feb 19th 2013, 10:49 PM
This all sounds vaguely familiar. I am sure that I have seen people gathered in the streets somewhere proclaiming this principle. I recall that they especially do it when there is some disaster or other. Mmmm
Ah, yes I've got it now, what was it? "Inshallah, inshallah," they all cry as they wail and beat their breasts in unison, meaning of course, "It is the will of God". Yes, strangely, they were all muslims not Christians, and The Holy Dude's description perfectly matches ALLAH, the God of Islam, much more than the God of Abraham Isaac and Israel.
In Islam, nobody has any freewill whatsoever. Everything is the will of Allah, everything that happpens, he has caused it. Allah's subjects are to submit themselves on pain of death.
A boat capsizes and sinks, it is the will of Allah, not because of massive overloading. A child gets sick and dies, it is the will of Allah never because of the Islamic militants who have destroyed the crop....etc. A daughter is raped, it is the will of Allah, not the will of the rapist.

Despite calling him Yahweh, God, or El Shadaii, many Christians worship a God who is more Allah than Elohim.

WOW!!! Very insightful.

Francis Drake
Feb 21st 2013, 08:44 PM
WOW!!! Very insightful.

I was once asked to conduct a short discussion/teaching group in a Pentecostal Church I attended. The subject was, "The Character of God."

It was supposed to be open discussion, but many were very reticent so I went around the group in turn getting everyone to contribute their thoughts. I confess that I was also throwing various suggestions and questions around to encourage them to open up, and it gradually became more lively. However nobody had observed that I was throwing in many common church falsehoods about God, particularly in the area of freewill and personal responsibility.

When they finished, I announced, "Congratulations, you have just accurately described Allah, the God of Islam."
They were horrified, and then burst out laughing. It clearly exposed some of the errors they all participated in. Surprisingly they immediately asked that they could do the same again the next week!

Interestingly, although I chaired the meeting, it included the Pastor and his wife, and they hadn't spotted the trap either.

watchinginawe
Feb 22nd 2013, 03:04 AM
This all sounds vaguely familiar. I am sure that I have seen people gathered in the streets somewhere proclaiming this principle. I recall that they especially do it when there is some disaster or other. Mmmm
Ah, yes I've got it now, what was it? "Inshallah, inshallah," they all cry as they wail and beat their breasts in unison, meaning of course, "It is the will of God". Yes, strangely, they were all muslims not Christians, and The Holy Dude's description perfectly matches ALLAH, the God of Islam, much more than the God of Abraham Isaac and Israel.
In Islam, nobody has any freewill whatsoever. Everything is the will of Allah, everything that happpens, he has caused it. Man has no input whatsoever.
A boat capsizes and sinks, it is the will of Allah, not because of massive overloading. A child gets sick and dies, it is the will of Allah never because of the Islamic militants who have destroyed the crop....etc. A daughter is raped, it is the will of Allah, not the will of the rapist.

Despite calling him Yahweh, God, or El Shadaii, many Christians worship a God who is more Allah than Elohim.

This just reminded me of the great classic "Lawrence of Arabia" (adults only). I'm going to have to queue up a 2013 showing soon me thinks.

Nick
Feb 23rd 2013, 05:27 AM
Lucifer must have had free will because he led a rebellion against God and 1/3 of all the angels followed him or so I'm told.

velle
Feb 24th 2013, 10:06 PM
I dont no if satan had free will are not , but your right in sayin that god had a plan in place all alone . for yes he new what would happen befour it did so I am happy about that and i do thank god for his son coming to die for us so we dont have to be put in hell, for every god's love is free to every one that wants it I think him so much for thats