PDA

View Full Version : Need Advice: Genesis 4:1-2



clarkthompson
Mar 2nd 2013, 12:20 PM
Genesis 4:1-2
New English Translation (NET)
The Story of Cain and Abel

4 Now the man had marital relations with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. Then she said, “I have created a man just as the Lord did!” 2 Then she gave birth to his brother Abel. Abel took care of the flocks, while Cain cultivated the ground.


these are my thoughts please share yours
Adam and Eve had kids like God told them to and they were born in a fallen state just like we are today they had to worh to eat and survive. Both of their work provided them food. Cain grew uis and Abel raised his up.




Genesis 4:1-2
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)


4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have gotten a man from the Lord.”
2 And she again bore his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.




Live the Halleluyah life

Diggindeeper
Mar 2nd 2013, 04:36 PM
Mediator Note: Moving this to Bible Chat, where it fits better.

Thomas Forward
Mar 3rd 2013, 12:18 AM
Clark,

I had to do a triple-take on "I have created a man just as the Lord did!". I have no real understanding of the Hebrew that this would have been written in, or any Hebrew for that matter, but I've never heard anything like that in reference to original/oldest manuscripts. I might be totally missing something here but it seems a pretty bold thing for Eve to say, so if there's something there, please help me see it.

And, in my opinion, "marital relations" just does the intent - as I understand it - no justice.



God's blessings to you.

guero
Mar 6th 2013, 05:54 PM
I had to do a triple-take on "I have created a man just as the Lord did!".


It is pretty bizarre.

The Jewish Study Bible translates the Hebrew as I have gained a male child with the help of the Lord.

The Septuagint reading is I have gained a man through God (Brenton LXX).

So neither the Hebrew nor Greek sources would seem to back this interpretation.

LandShark
Mar 7th 2013, 01:35 PM
The Hebrew word there is qânâh, ONE of the many meanings is "create," but in the KJV (no, I am not KJV only) it was never translated as "create" in any of its 86 entries. The word for create is bara.... "B'resheit bara Elohim" is the first three words of the bible, literally, "in the beginning created God..." The word qânâh is really just to receive, acquire or procure, and the context bears that out. Adam "knew" Eve, she conceived, and she qânâh a child, she received or acquired a child. I think what is more interesting about this verse is what follows in verse 2. The first word in verse 2 is yâsaph which means "to continue." The wording in English suggests Cain and then another conception... but the Hebrew is suggesting twins.

Fenris
Mar 7th 2013, 02:00 PM
Yeah the NET translation is just wacky. The Hebrew in this verse is difficult though. It reads as follows-

וַתֹּאמֶר קָנִיתִי אִישׁ אֶת יְהֹוָה

And she said "I have acquired a man (then the Hebrew word "Et") God".

"Et" is a hard word to translate. It used to indicate a direct object but we don't do that in English so it's hard to explain how it's used. It doesn't seem to fit in this sentence. Maybe that's why medieval Jewish commentator Rashi says the word should be read as "עִם" "with". I know there's the Jewish idea that when we create a new life we are "partners" with God, (we create the body, God adds the soul) so that fits here.

LandShark
Mar 7th 2013, 02:10 PM
I thought the Jewish position on what a soul (nephesh) is was the coming together of body and spirit.Kill the body or take away the spirit and there is no life, no soul?

Fenris
Mar 7th 2013, 02:13 PM
There's a soul and a body.

LandShark
Mar 7th 2013, 02:24 PM
There's a soul and a body.

Interesting... another thread perhaps? When I read it I see a body, God breathes in it, and THEN it "becomes" (interesting, a form of hayah for "becomes") a living soul. Anyway, like I said, another thread another time. Blessings.

Vakeros
Mar 7th 2013, 05:17 PM
Interesting... another thread perhaps? When I read it I see a body, God breathes in it, and THEN it "becomes" (interesting, a form of hayah for "becomes") a living soul. Anyway, like I said, another thread another time. Blessings.
This was discussed on another thread a bit. Note body + living breath becomes a "living soul". Without your body you therefore presumably are a dead soul awaiting resurrection. The thread was originally on Rev 20:4 found under end-times chat and got sidetracked onto can a soul be alive without a body i.e. without being resurrected.

LandShark
Mar 7th 2013, 05:23 PM
This was discussed on another thread a bit. Note body + living breath becomes a "living soul". Without your body you therefore presumably are a dead soul awaiting resurrection. The thread was originally on Rev 20:4 found under end-times chat and got sidetracked onto can a soul be alive without a body i.e. without being resurrected.


Thanks... perhaps we can revisit that topic some time. Sadly though, it is one that many are emotionally tied to and it makes a good deep exchange of ideas difficult. I can always hope! Blessings.

Vakeros
Mar 7th 2013, 06:06 PM
Thanks... perhaps we can revisit that topic some time. Sadly though, it is one that many are emotionally tied to and it makes a good deep exchange of ideas difficult. I can always hope! Blessings.
There is also a thread in Areopagus which asks the question what happens when you die, which is of course connected. I was banned for a few days and had to put my ideas there as I was considered to close to heretical / cultic teaching, which is why I know a bit about it.
Coming back to the OP a bit - it is good to remember that every life has God's involvement as per the partnership highlighted in Eve's exclamation.

Thomas Forward
Mar 7th 2013, 09:21 PM
It is pretty bizarre.

The Jewish Study Bible translates the Hebrew as I have gained a male child with the help of the Lord.

The Septuagint reading is I have gained a man through God (Brenton LXX).

So neither the Hebrew nor Greek sources would seem to back this interpretation.

guero, I was thinking along those lines; "with the help of God".

Thanks for that info.

God bless.

willyah
Mar 13th 2013, 02:55 PM
guero, I was thinking along those lines; "with the help of God".

Thanks for that info.

God bless.

(Psa 127:3 KJV) Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

willyah
Mar 13th 2013, 02:58 PM
Interesting... another thread perhaps? When I read it I see a body, God breathes in it, and THEN it "becomes" (interesting, a form of hayah for "becomes") a living soul. Anyway, like I said, another thread another time. Blessings.

YaH has soul........

(Lev 26:11 KJV) And I ( YHWH-YaH) will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.

(Lev 26:12 KJV) And I will walk among you, and will be your Elohm, and ye shall be my people.

LookingUp
Mar 13th 2013, 03:28 PM
YaH has soul........

(Lev 26:11 KJV) And I ( YHWH-YaH) will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.

(Lev 26:12 KJV) And I will walk among you, and will be your Elohm, and ye shall be my people.I thought it was written that Yahweh is a living spirit. And "soul" refers to Him, like when one says, "My soul takes delight in you" is the equivalent to, "I take delight in you."

Liquid Tension
Mar 13th 2013, 10:58 PM
Yeah, that was one of the things that I thought was a bit weird about the NET (what very little I've read, anyway).



Yeah the NET translation is just wacky. The Hebrew in this verse is difficult though. It reads as follows-

וַתֹּאמֶר קָנִיתִי אִישׁ אֶת יְהֹוָה

And she said "I have acquired a man (then the Hebrew word "Et") God".

"Et" is a hard word to translate. It used to indicate a direct object but we don't do that in English so it's hard to explain how it's used. It doesn't seem to fit in this sentence. Maybe that's why medieval Jewish commentator Rashi says the word should be read as "עִם" "with". I know there's the Jewish idea that when we create a new life we are "partners" with God, (we create the body, God adds the soul) so that fits here.

^^^^Good info here Fenris.