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LookingUp
Mar 22nd 2013, 01:28 AM
Are those in Christ still under the law that says, “You sin, you die” (Romans 6:23)?

Paul says (from Romans 7 & 8):
For the wages of sin is death. Do you know that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? You were made to die to the law through Christ. We have been released from the law. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those in Christ. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

It is said we are forgiven of our sins when we repent and put our faith in Christ Jesus. We are baptized into the body of Christ. We are taken from being under the law (which condemns us to death because we have sinned) and put under Christ. Once under Christ, baptized into the body of Christ and “in Christ,” can our future sin condemn us to death (this is not in referring to being in a constant state of rebellion that leads us to continually practice sin)?

psyche643
Mar 22nd 2013, 04:37 AM
For exactly the reasons you state! Christ isn't bound by time, and our future sins are forgiven too. Otherwise (as has been brought up in some other threads,) if I followed Christ my whole life but sinned in my dying breath, I'd be screwed. Thank you, Lord!

LookingUp
Mar 22nd 2013, 05:13 AM
...if I followed Christ my whole life but sinned in my dying breath, I'd be screwed.This statement of yours focuses on what I'm getting at. This all came up when someone mentioned to me that Matthew 6:15 (if you do not forgive others then your Father will not forgive your trespasses) means that if we die with any unconfessed, unrepentant sin such as unforgiveness, we die with an unforgiven sin, which means the that the law that there are wages of sin to be paid applies to us and we must pay with death (eternal death). It seems to me, though, that Paul says that not only are we forgiven for past sins when we repent and put our faith in Christ, we also die to the law (Rom. 7 & 8) and it no longer, from that point forward, has jurisdiction over us. Thus, future unconfessed & unrepentant sin can't condemn us to death according to the law that says, "the wages of sin is death."

Now, there is the parable of the unforgiving debtor in Matthew 18 that this could also relate to which shows that God will not forgive those who heartlessly unforgive others. But it seems there is a vast difference between holding a private grudge due to pride and using your "justified" unforgiveness as a license to be cruel. I have seen very loving individuals who've committed themselves to following Christ Jesus fall into the sin of pride & unforgiveness and hold onto it much too long. What if they were hit by a car & killed while harboring this grudge--they'd go to hell because they died with a sin they hadn't yet asked forgiveness for?

Walls
Mar 22nd 2013, 07:20 AM
Are those in Christ still under the law that says, “You sin, you die” (Romans 6:23)?

Paul says (from Romans 7 & 8):
For the wages of sin is death. Do you know that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? You were made to die to the law through Christ. We have been released from the law. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those in Christ. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

It is said we are forgiven of our sins when we repent and put our faith in Christ Jesus. We are baptized into the body of Christ. We are taken from being under the law (which condemns us to death because we have sinned) and put under Christ. Once under Christ, baptized into the body of Christ and “in Christ,” can our future sin condemn us to death (this is not in referring to being in a constant state of rebellion that leads us to continually practice sin)?

There are a number of problems that are solved by our Lord's death. Your future sins are also dealt with by His death. But John 1:17 say that mercy is coupled to truth. This can be seen in the matter of forgiveness in the Church in Matthew 18. The offended must approach the offender and the offender must admit the offense. If he/she does not admit the offense there is no forgiveness, but excommunication.

So we must basically judge ourselves on an hourly basis (for this is the time span of Christ's unexpected coming - Matt.24:42, 25:13) and admit our faults to the Lord. This type of self judgement on an hourly basis leads to two possible endings.

Either you get so fed up with yourself you actually start dealing with the problems and you end up living a holier life
Or you give up and continue in sin, and it will go badly for you at the judgment seat of Christ (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10)

The wages of sin is death. So all men are headed for physical death (1st Ki.2:1-2). But God warns us that there is a second death that must be feared worse than the first. It is the death of the soul (Matt.10:28). A Christian cannot go to the Lake of Fire, the everlasting death of the soul, but the effects of the Lake of Fire can be felt by a Christian. To the Church (Christians) at Smyrna Jesus Christ warns that unless one is an overcomer, one could be "hurt" of the Second Death. "Hurt" is different from "consumed". What it means is, after the Lord Jesus returns, He will judge and deal with those Christians who have continued in sin with "hurt" from the second death. From piecing together all the warnings of the New Testament directed towards the Lord's people and/or servants, I estimate that the unrepentant Christian will be cast out of the Kingdom of the Heavens and into outer darkness for the duration of the Millennial Kingdom (eg. Gal.5:21; Eph.5:5).

Boo
Mar 22nd 2013, 10:14 AM
I responded "other." The reason is found in 1 Corinthians 3. It is up to God to tell us what Paul meant to tell the people at Corinth. It quite possibly refers to what happens to us if we leave this earth with some bad works on our record (unforgiven sin). It is up to God to clarify the teaching there as I feel no need to start a debate about it.

Walls' view is also like mine. I keep my mind and heart with God and ensure that I am watching to see that I give God reason to approve of my walk constantly. I want to please Him, so i guard my heart from the world. I will not give up and give in.

LandShark
Mar 22nd 2013, 02:33 PM
"Under the Law" is an idiom dealing with guilt. "Under grace" is an idiom dealing with freedom, forgiveness. We are no longer "under the law" (we are no longer guilty because the bridegroom has paid the penalty for the bride) and now we are "under grace" (forgiven, free to obey and worship without fear of condemnation from God or man). Being free does not abrogate walking in God's will, we are still to die to the notion that we live according to our understanding of righteousness, and we are to live according to His. No matter how you slice it, we are called to live a holy and righteous life as per God's standards and definitions. Not "unto salvation," but once you become His, you are to live set apart from the sinful world around us. So "not sinning" is expected of God people, and when and if we do, we have an advocate in messiah.

percho
Mar 22nd 2013, 03:29 PM
"Under the Law" is an idiom dealing with guilt. "Under grace" is an idiom dealing with freedom, forgiveness. We are no longer "under the law" (we are no longer guilty because the bridegroom has paid the penalty for the bride) and now we are "under grace" (forgiven, free to obey and worship without fear of condemnation from God or man). Being free does not abrogate walking in God's will, we are still to die to the notion that we live according to our understanding of righteousness, and we are to live according to His. No matter how you slice it, we are called to live a holy and righteous life as per God's standards and definitions. Not "unto salvation," but once you become His, you are to live set apart from the sinful world around us. So "not sinning" is expected of God people, and when and if we do, we have an advocate in messiah.

I could not have put it better. Beginning at Romans 5:8 through chapter 6, I believe you will find the death of Jesus Christ, his shed blood, and his subsequent resurrection from the dead is what released one from being under the law to being under grace.

Before that point in time, those three days and three nights, there wasn't any means for man to be released from the wages of sin.


Paul by inspiration of the Holy Spirit calls this span of time in Galatians 3:23-25, before the faith came and after the faith did come, that removed one from being under the law, the schoolmaster, to being, under grace.

Now compare this truth with my post #15 of thread, "What is Faith," copied to below, and see if both do not say the same truth.

From that thread.

What was hoped for yet not seen by man.

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:2

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 2 Tim. 1:10

What brought forth the thing hoped for. What brought forth something never seen before by man.

Could the man of sin even have this hope? Would it be required for the one to receive this promise of hope to be sinless yet give his life?

What is faith?

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Cor. 15:3

For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, ye are yet in your sins, your faith vain. 1 Cor. 15:16,17

Christ dying for our sins is vain if the Father has not raised him from the dead by resurrection.

Keep in mind it is Christ and Christ alone to this date who has been resurrected from the dead in this manner.

Jesus had to die for our sins and had to be raised from the dead by the Father and given the promise of the Holy Spirit before the Holy Spirit, the Comforter could come to us.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Acts 2:32,33

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal. 3:2 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through the faith. Gal. 3:14

What they heard about by which they received the Spirit was, Christ died for our sins and God the Father raised him from the dead, giving him the hoped for promise made by God before the beginning of time.

Faith is Christ in you the hope of glory, the very same hope you are a joint heir of with Christ; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7 or as stated in Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. (last verse added for this post)

psyche643
Mar 22nd 2013, 03:29 PM
I've got to say, I am encouraged that no one has yet answered outright "Yes" to the poll question. This tells me that people are at least carefully considering this important issue, even if we don't all agree. (By the way, if someone does answer "Yes," my impression will apply to you too, as long as you explain how you came to that conclusion!)

Jade99
Mar 22nd 2013, 03:42 PM
If you are in Christ, you're no longer under law, but under grace. It's by His grace that we're saved.

When he was on the cross, he died for past, present, and future sins of the whole world. So, even when one becomes apart of the body of Christ, we were warned by Paul in Gal 5:16-17, that we should walk in the Spirit and we would not fulfilled the lust of the flesh. We still have the same sinful nature that we were born with inside us, but it's at war with the Spirit of God that is now inside us, because they are contrary to another. That's why it's important that we continuously feed the Spirit and not the flesh, but reading/studying our bibles daily, praying without ceasing, watching what we read, watch, hear.

God knew we would still sin, even as after we became his, so that's why we have 1 John 1:9, which states, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This doesn't give believers a licence to go buck wild and sin for the fun of sinning, but it doesn't give us a death sentence each time we mess up and we will mess up. WE will not lose our salvation, but if you sin, you will get out of fellowship with God and the Holy Spirit will just convict you until you confess and repent.

Heb 8:12 says this : For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

So, when we who are in Christ, confess that sin, he forgives us and remember that sin no more. Our sins were nailed to the cross a long time ago, so after our confession, we shouldn't bear it no more. That's a gracious and forgiving Father that we serve.

If anyone has like a reoccuring sin that is like a regular thing, like cussing for an example; talk to the Lord about it and say "Hey I want to stop cussing, I know its bad and against your word, please help." He'll hear you out for sure, just be upfront about it.

He knows that we're going to screw up, he just want us to be honest with him when we do. It's a learning process for all of us still.

keck553
Mar 22nd 2013, 04:49 PM
If God has grace for Christians who sin, surely His grace extends to Christians who make an effort not to sin.

LookingUp
Mar 22nd 2013, 11:07 PM
Paul says:
"I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died" (Rom. 7:9).
"Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?" (Gal. 4:21).
"...all who sin under the law will be judge by the law (Rom. 2:12).
"...the wages of sin is death..." (Rom. 6:23).
"...the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives" (Rom. 7:1).
"...you were made to die to the Law..." (Rom. 7:4).
"But now we have been released from the Law..." (Rom. 7:6).
“But now apart from the Law…” (Rom. 3:21).

Notice Paul says he was alive apart from the law, and according to Rom. 3:21, we are again "apart from the law."

"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!" (Rom. 6:15).

How can a law (“you sin, you die”) that has no jurisdiction over us condemn us?

Raybob
Mar 23rd 2013, 11:00 AM
... our future sins are forgiven too. Otherwise (as has been brought up in some other threads,) if I followed Christ my whole life but sinned in my dying breath, I'd be screwed. Thank you, Lord!

I've heard that, but I've never seen any scripture that even mentions 'future' sins. All I see is that Christians are forgiven for sins in the past.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Becoming Christian means repentance from sin. All I see about future sin is "Go and sin no more", and "We are crucified with Christ .. the life that I live, I live by faith in the son of God".

Boo
Mar 23rd 2013, 11:51 AM
I really find these responses interesting. Most interesting is how all have neglected to admit what they believe we are to do IF we commit a sin after becoming His. I guess, from the responses so far, that everyone seems to believe that we are automatically forgiven and all is well.

So, which is it, my brothers and sisters? Is repentance and a request for forgiveness still required? Is it automatic so we don't have to be concerned with it? What if we do sin again and don't bother repenting of it?

I will assume, and it is probably safe since the bible says so, that we have all managed to sin again after accepting Jesus as Lord. What did we do about it? Did we repent and ask forgiveness? If we did not, what do we believe the bible tells us to do?

Brother Mark
Mar 23rd 2013, 01:05 PM
Until I see people that don't die in the flesh, then I am inclined to believe that those that sin, will die. :)

All kidding aside, death is the result of sin. If by "die" you mean spiritual death, I am not inclined to believe that sin will lead to spiritual death the moment is is committed. Else, Jonah would have been "dead" while preaching one of the greatest revivals known to man.

I still think that physical death is on us because of sin and in that sense, the wages of sin is death.

Finally, another thought to consider... being cast into the lake of fire is the 2nd death. That too is the wage of sin.

psyche643
Mar 23rd 2013, 02:43 PM
I really find these responses interesting. Most interesting is how all have neglected to admit what they believe we are to do IF we commit a sin after becoming His. I guess, from the responses so far, that everyone seems to believe that we are automatically forgiven and all is well.

So, which is it, my brothers and sisters? Is repentance and a request for forgiveness still required? Is it automatic so we don't have to be concerned with it? What if we do sin again and don't bother repenting of it?

I will assume, and it is probably safe since the bible says so, that we have all managed to sin again after accepting Jesus as Lord. What did we do about it? Did we repent and ask forgiveness? If we did not, what do we believe the bible tells us to do?

I have many times sinned post-salvation. I've asked forgiveness and then sinned again. I don't know the correct answer to this, but you raise some good questions and I'll share my ideas.

I think the purpose of asking forgiveness and confessing sin is to restore our relationship to God - not that the relationship was severed, but that our sin separates us from Him, and we confess our sin to remove that barrier. The barrier was put there by us, not him, so we willingly tear it down and come back to Him who has been pursuing us.


When I sin against my husband, first I'm in denial. I notice the signs that he's upset but I deny that it's my fault. I am too cheerful when I talk to him because I'm trying to cover up the fact that there's something between us. Our conversation is jilted and shallow. Until I acknowledge what I've done, and apologize, that wall is going to be between us. My sin has gotten in the way of our relationship, but it hasn't ended our marriage.

So when I sin post-salvation, I believe I'm still saved, but I need to (again) come back to God.

All I know is, when God looks at me, he sees Jesus' blood. I believe that Jesus' blood doesn't go away and come back every time I think a sinful thought. Because even though I'm not always gossiping or lusting, I am always having little subconscious selfish thoughts.

I don't have Scriptural backup. I haven't looked, honestly - I just thought it was obvious that a God who loved us enough to send Jesus to die, wouldn't say "Jesus' blood couldn't save you, because you had one selfish thought before you died in that car crash."

But I'll think more about it. Thanks for the good questions.

Scooby_Snacks
Mar 23rd 2013, 02:54 PM
Paul says:
"I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died" (Rom. 7:9).
"Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?" (Gal. 4:21).
"...all who sin under the law will be judge by the law (Rom. 2:12).
"...the wages of sin is death..." (Rom. 6:23).
"...the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives" (Rom. 7:1).
"...you were made to die to the Law..." (Rom. 7:4).
"But now we have been released from the Law..." (Rom. 7:6).
“But now apart from the Law…” (Rom. 3:21).

Notice Paul says he was alive apart from the law, and according to Rom. 3:21, we are again "apart from the law."

"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!" (Rom. 6:15).

How can a law (“you sin, you die”) that has no jurisdiction over us condemn us?


Only by manner of ones own unbelief.

Believing (Having Faith) in Gods Promises, and Faith in Christ as sole provider of our Salvation by His perfect sacrifice-- that all sins were placed upon Him in His victory over death, we enter into His Rest. We enter the promised land. Hebrews 4.

Brother Mark
Mar 23rd 2013, 03:01 PM
Paul says:
"I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died" (Rom. 7:9).
"Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?" (Gal. 4:21).
"...all who sin under the law will be judge by the law (Rom. 2:12).
"...the wages of sin is death..." (Rom. 6:23).
"...the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives" (Rom. 7:1).
"...you were made to die to the Law..." (Rom. 7:4).
"But now we have been released from the Law..." (Rom. 7:6).
“But now apart from the Law…” (Rom. 3:21).

Notice Paul says he was alive apart from the law, and according to Rom. 3:21, we are again "apart from the law."

"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!" (Rom. 6:15).

How can a law (“you sin, you die”) that has no jurisdiction over us condemn us?

Personally, I don't group "if you sin, you will die" with the Law. The Law, IMO, is the Law of Moses. I can eat pork but that isn't sin, IMO, because I am not under the law of Moses. IOW, the law Paul is telling me that has no jurisdiction over me is the law of Moses.

That said, didn't Paul also write "There is now no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus"? How can anything condemn those that are in Christ?

Another thought... what is the difference between law and sowing and reaping? Or condemnation from the law and consequence?

percho
Mar 23rd 2013, 03:08 PM
I really find these responses interesting. Most interesting is how all have neglected to admit what they believe we are to do IF we commit a sin after becoming His. I guess, from the responses so far, that everyone seems to believe that we are automatically forgiven and all is well.

So, which is it, my brothers and sisters? Is repentance and a request for forgiveness still required? Is it automatic so we don't have to be concerned with it? What if we do sin again and don't bother repenting of it?

I will assume, and it is probably safe since the bible says so, that we have all managed to sin again after accepting Jesus as Lord. What did we do about it? Did we repent and ask forgiveness? If we did not, what do we believe the bible tells us to do?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8,9
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1,2

There is a reason the feast of unleavened bread was a seven day feast with a holy convocation on the 15th and a holy convocation on the 21st. That is a lifetime. The blood shed between the two evenings of the 14th unleavened us, (See 1 Cor. 5:6-8) and continues to unleaven us through confession. IMHO

Lelane
Mar 23rd 2013, 03:33 PM
No we are no longer under the law that if "you sin, you die" however, I am a firm believer in sinning against the Holy Spirit. Here is my theory, the Bible (God) makes it very clear that he hates sin period. The only law we are under will be the law of love, if you truly love God you will not sin all together, if we ask forgiveness we are forgiven yet we cannot just ask for forgiveness to make ourselves feel better or sleep better at night. We really need to repent and be honest and true when we confess, we must not only want to be forgiven we must want to not sin anymore. We have one life and one chance, and when we sin on purpose while we can 100% distinguish the difference between right and wrong we are sinning against the holy spirit, and that is the unforgivable sin. We can be forgiven but what if you sin against the holy spirit yet we do not have time or are given the chance to repent.

We have free will we are entitled to our choices, however God does not play dice, and every time we make a bad choice or sin deliberately we are rolling the dice on our fate because we never know when it might just be to late and we are doomed.

So my point is you will not be killed if you sin, we all sin and that is why God sent his son to die for us, so we can be forgiven and be given the chance to spend eternity with him, so try to live by his love and compassion cause when you love you will not sin, if you love someone you will not want to do anything to hurt him or anyone else or yourself. You will not want to sin because of your love for God and his will.

He does not ask much of us, he asks us to be sincere to love and really try. Just make a effort and we need to keep it up and keep it up and keep it up and keep it up until we tire the devil out. Until he flees from us leaves us in peace and leaves us to love and serve God as we should.

Lelane
Mar 23rd 2013, 03:38 PM
No we are not, just do what you can to be faithful to yourself, his word and love, love and love some more. For if we love we will not sin, we will not want to sin, we will not feel the need or have the impulse to sin. However should you sin against the holy spirit yes well you are a bit screwed.
By that I mean sinning deliberately when you know what you are doing is wrong, when you know that you will hurt someone or know that what you are about to do will go against God, then you are sinning against the Holy Ghost, when you are just ignoring him every time he tries to guide you.

BroRog
Mar 23rd 2013, 04:33 PM
Romans 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written, "For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

LookingUp
Mar 23rd 2013, 04:57 PM
I've heard that, but I've never seen any scripture that even mentions 'future' sins. All I see is that Christians are forgiven for sins in the past.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Becoming Christian means repentance from sin. All I see about future sin is "Go and sin no more", and "We are crucified with Christ .. the life that I live, I live by faith in the son of God".I agree, Raybob, but we do sin. Past sins had once kept us in bondage to fear of death (Heb. 2:14-15). The wages of sin is death. We are forgiven of past sin and free from its debt. And NOW we are also released from the law that says "the wages of sin is death" so future sin can no longer hold us in fear of death. Although, we certainly will be held accountable for unforgiven sin when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 5:10; 1 Cor. 3:15) and if we go on in willful rebellion against God by practicing sin, we have not truly committed ourselves to Him at all.

LookingUp
Mar 23rd 2013, 05:20 PM
I really find these responses interesting. Most interesting is how all have neglected to admit what they believe we are to do IF we commit a sin after becoming His. I guess, from the responses so far, that everyone seems to believe that we are automatically forgiven and all is well.

So, which is it, my brothers and sisters? Is repentance and a request for forgiveness still required? Is it automatic so we don't have to be concerned with it? What if we do sin again and don't bother repenting of it?

I will assume, and it is probably safe since the bible says so, that we have all managed to sin again after accepting Jesus as Lord. What did we do about it? Did we repent and ask forgiveness? If we did not, what do we believe the bible tells us to do?I'm not sure what everyone is thinking, but my motivation in starting the thread is because of Matthew 6:15:
"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

If you're in Christ and released from the law that condemns you to death for unforgiven sin, then I don't believe Jesus could be saying one's salvation is genuinely in jeopardy if you die on your deathbed having never truly forgiven that family member who hurt you, or that man who raped you, or that drunk driver who killed your child. In no way am I advocating holding onto unforgiveness, but the reality is, some Christians have passed on with the remains of unforgiveness in their heart.

Personally, I think Jesus’ statement is regarding the type of unforgiveness seen in the parable of the unforgiving debtor in Matthew 18. And since that servant is called “wicked” in verse 32, I don’t believe that person was ever committed to God in the first place (i.e. they were never truly saved).

Brother Mark
Mar 23rd 2013, 05:23 PM
I agree, Raybob, but we do sin. Past sins had once kept us in bondage to fear of death (Heb. 2:14-15). The wages of sin is death. We are forgiven of past sin and free from its debt. And NOW we are also released from the law that says "the wages of sin is death" so future sin can no longer hold us in fear of death. Although, we certainly will be held accountable for unforgiven sin when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 5:10; 1 Cor. 3:15) and if we go on in willful rebellion against God by practicing sin, we have not truly committed ourselves to Him at all.

Hi Lookin. Just a quick note... it's through fear of death we are kept in bondage to sin. While we are dead to sin, many still struggle with sin and strongholds. The reason is, we are afraid of embracing the cross because it means we have to die to something. That death often scares us and as a result, we remain in bondage.

Heb 2:15
15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
NKJV

Rev 12:11-12
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
NKJV


Sorry, I know it was off topic. It just so happens to be a verse that I love! Back to our regularly scheduled programming....

Grace and peace!

Mark

LookingUp
Mar 23rd 2013, 05:25 PM
Until I see people that don't die in the flesh, then I am inclined to believe that those that sin, will die.

All kidding aside, death is the result of sin. If by "die" you mean spiritual death, I am not inclined to believe that sin will lead to spiritual death the moment is is committed. Else, Jonah would have been "dead" while preaching one of the greatest revivals known to man.

I still think that physical death is on us because of sin and in that sense, the wages of sin is death.

Finally, another thought to consider... being cast into the lake of fire is the 2nd death. That too is the wage of sin.I think that death is permanent for those who die with unforgiven sin. It’s not for those in Christ, though, because our past sin is forgiven and our future sin does not have the same power it once had when we were under the law that condemns us to death.

Would you mind reading my post above (to Boo) also and giving me any additional insight you think would be helpful?

LookingUp
Mar 23rd 2013, 05:39 PM
Personally, I don't group "if you sin, you will die" with the Law. The Law, IMO, is the Law of Moses. I can eat pork but that isn't sin, IMO, because I am not under the law of Moses. IOW, the law Paul is telling me that has no jurisdiction over me is the law of Moses.Paul uses the Mosaic Law as the reference point when he speaks, but there was a law in force in Eden: “If you do this, you die.”


That said, didn't Paul also write "There is now no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus"? How can anything condemn those that are in Christ?

Another thought... what is the difference between law and sowing and reaping? Or condemnation from the law and consequence?Exactly. We will reap what we sow. There is no condemnation but there is consequence.

BroRog
Mar 23rd 2013, 06:14 PM
I'm not sure what everyone is thinking, but my motivation in starting the thread is because of Matthew 6:15:
"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

If you're in Christ and released from the law that condemns you to death for unforgiven sin, then I don't believe Jesus could be saying one's salvation is genuinely in jeopardy if you die on your deathbed having never truly forgiven that family member who hurt you, or that man who raped you, or that drunk driver who killed your child. In no way am I advocating holding onto unforgiveness, but the reality is, some Christians have passed on with the remains of unforgiveness in their heart.

Personally, I think Jesus’ statement is regarding the type of forgiveness seen in the parable of the unforgiving debtor in Matthew 18. And since that servant is called “wicked” in verse 32, I don’t believe that person was ever committed to God in the first place (i.e. they were never truly saved).The main point of the parable is to illustrate the connection between our willingness to forgive and God's willingness to forgive and under what circumstances God would not be willing to forgive. When I refuse to forgive someone, I could be saying "I think people should get what they deserve." God would then respond, "Okay, since you think people should get what they deserve, I'll give you what you deserve."

Also, I think it would be fair to conclude that the man's second encounter with the king illustrates the final judgment. In other words, the first time the man encounters the king, this occasion represents this age. Just as the king forgives the man's huge debt, God is forgiving our trespasses in this age. The second time the man encounters the king, this represents the final age. Since the man was unwilling to forgive others, the king threw the man into prison. And just as the second encounter of the man with the king determined the man's fate; our encounter with God at the final age will determine our fate. Having your sins forgiven in this age is not nearly as significant as having your sins forgiven at the final judgment.

Jesus is trying to teach us that our disposition in the final judgment is predicated on our willingness to forgive others in this age.

Christians tend to think of faith/forgiveness/salvation as an item on the bucket list. Faith? I've done that. Forgiveness? I've done that. Salvation? I've done that. So questions like these come up. "Since I have forgiveness checked off my bucket list, then how can you say I don't have forgiveness?" Jesus is saying, "forgiveness isn't something you check off your bucket list. I can forgive you of your sins or not. It's MY choice whom to forgive or not forgive. If you want me to forgive you, make it a habit to forgive others during your lifetime on this earth."

LookingUp
Mar 23rd 2013, 06:47 PM
Thanks BroRog! That was helpful. :-)

Brother Mark
Mar 23rd 2013, 07:49 PM
I'm not sure what everyone is thinking, but my motivation in starting the thread is because of Matthew 6:15:
"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

If you're in Christ and released from the law that condemns you to death for unforgiven sin, then I don't believe Jesus could be saying one's salvation is genuinely in jeopardy if you die on your deathbed having never truly forgiven that family member who hurt you, or that man who raped you, or that drunk driver who killed your child. In no way am I advocating holding onto unforgiveness, but the reality is, some Christians have passed on with the remains of unforgiveness in their heart.

I've not been able to determine what I think the long term consequences of this verse may be. To be honest, I don't want to find out. :-) However, I do believe that if we don't forgive our brothers from the heart, God won't forgive us either.


Personally, I think Jesus’ statement is regarding the type of unforgiveness seen in the parable of the unforgiving debtor in Matthew 18. And since that servant is called “wicked” in verse 32, I don’t believe that person was ever committed to God in the first place (i.e. they were never truly saved).

Maybe . But then how do you explain that he was forgiven by the King in that parable?

LookingUp
Mar 23rd 2013, 08:19 PM
I've not been able to determine what I think the long term consequences of this verse may be. To be honest, I don't want to find out. :-) However, I do believe that if we don't forgive our brothers from the heart, God won't forgive us either.Agreed. The question is can future unforgiven sin condemn us to death as our past unforgiven sin did?


Maybe . But then how do you explain that he was forgiven by the King in that parable?I explain it with verses like 2 Cor. 5:19, 1 John 2:2 and 2 Peter 2:1.

Noeb
Mar 23rd 2013, 09:28 PM
I've heard that, but I've never seen any scripture that even mentions 'future' sins. All I see is that Christians are forgiven for sins in the past.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Becoming Christian means repentance from sin. All I see about future sin is "Go and sin no more", and "We are crucified with Christ .. the life that I live, I live by faith in the son of God".You have seen scripture for all sins, you just reject them, just as you reject Romans 3:25. Remission is not there. Here,

paresis
1) passing over, letting pass, neglecting, disregarding

ESV
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

JFB Commentary
"through the forbearance of God — God not remitting but only forbearing to punish them, or passing them by, until an adequate atonement for them should be made. In thus not imputing them, God was righteous, but He was not seen to be so; there was no “manifestation of His righteousness” in doing so under the ancient economy. But now that God can “set forth” Christ as a “propitiation for sin through faith in His blood,” the righteousness of His procedure in passing by the sins of believers before, and in now remitting them, is “manifested,” declared, brought fully out to the view of the whole world. (Our translators have unfortunately missed this glorious truth, taking “the sins that are past” to mean the past sins of believers - committed before faith - and rendering, by the word “remission,” what means only a “passing by”; thus making it appear that “remission of sins” is “through the forbearance of God,” which it certainly is not)."

Raybob
Mar 24th 2013, 11:19 AM
You have seen scripture for all sins, you just reject them, just as you reject Romans 3:25. ...

Please show us one.

mailmandan
Mar 24th 2013, 11:56 AM
In Colossians 2:13 Paul wrote, “He forgave us all our sins”. The Greek word he used means each and every sin. That means past present and future.

1. How many of our sins did God know about before we were born? (All of them.)
2. How many of them did He record on our certificate of debt mentioned in the passage in Colossians referenced above? (All of them.)
3. How many of our sins did Jesus pay for on the cross? (All of them.)
4. How many of them were future at that time? (All of them.)
5. How many sins was He referring to when He said, “It is finished”? (All of them.)
6. At the time we were saved, how many of our sins did God forgive? (All of them.)

Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Boo
Mar 24th 2013, 12:00 PM
I have many times sinned post-salvation. I've asked forgiveness and then sinned again. I don't know the correct answer to this, but you raise some good questions and I'll share my ideas.

I think the purpose of asking forgiveness and confessing sin is to restore our relationship to God - not that the relationship was severed, but that our sin separates us from Him, and we confess our sin to remove that barrier. The barrier was put there by us, not him, so we willingly tear it down and come back to Him who has been pursuing us.


When I sin against my husband, first I'm in denial. I notice the signs that he's upset but I deny that it's my fault. I am too cheerful when I talk to him because I'm trying to cover up the fact that there's something between us. Our conversation is jilted and shallow. Until I acknowledge what I've done, and apologize, that wall is going to be between us. My sin has gotten in the way of our relationship, but it hasn't ended our marriage.

So when I sin post-salvation, I believe I'm still saved, but I need to (again) come back to God.

All I know is, when God looks at me, he sees Jesus' blood. I believe that Jesus' blood doesn't go away and come back every time I think a sinful thought. Because even though I'm not always gossiping or lusting, I am always having little subconscious selfish thoughts.

I don't have Scriptural backup. I haven't looked, honestly - I just thought it was obvious that a God who loved us enough to send Jesus to die, wouldn't say "Jesus' blood couldn't save you, because you had one selfish thought before you died in that car crash."

But I'll think more about it. Thanks for the good questions.

Really thoughtful post. Thank you, and I believe you have a good grasp of the situation. I don't think God divorces us based on our errors post-salvation, but I do believe that we distance ourselves from Him by sin. There must be a way to reconcile ourselves with Him if we leave this earth with sin on our record. God does not just ignore them.

Boo
Mar 24th 2013, 12:02 PM
I'm not sure what everyone is thinking, but my motivation in starting the thread is because of Matthew 6:15:
"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

If you're in Christ and released from the law that condemns you to death for unforgiven sin, then I don't believe Jesus could be saying one's salvation is genuinely in jeopardy if you die on your deathbed having never truly forgiven that family member who hurt you, or that man who raped you, or that drunk driver who killed your child. In no way am I advocating holding onto unforgiveness, but the reality is, some Christians have passed on with the remains of unforgiveness in their heart.

Personally, I think Jesus’ statement is regarding the type of unforgiveness seen in the parable of the unforgiving debtor in Matthew 18. And since that servant is called “wicked” in verse 32, I don’t believe that person was ever committed to God in the first place (i.e. they were never truly saved).

May I request that you read 1 Corinthians 3, starting with verse 10, and tell me what you think?

psyche643
Mar 24th 2013, 02:13 PM
Really thoughtful post. Thank you, and I believe you have a good grasp of the situation. I don't think God divorces us based on our errors post-salvation, but I do believe that we distance ourselves from Him by sin. There must be a way to reconcile ourselves with Him if we leave this earth with sin on our record. God does not just ignore them.

Thank you! And for your good questions that got everyone talking!

LookingUp
Mar 24th 2013, 05:43 PM
May I request that you read 1 Corinthians 3, starting with verse 10, and tell me what you think?Well, as I mentioned in post #22:
"Although, we certainly will be held accountable for unforgiven sin when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 5:10; 1 Cor. 3:15) and if we go on in willful rebellion against God by practicing sin, we have not truly committed ourselves to Him at all."

So, I believe 1 Cor. 3 speaks of one who has died with unforgiven sin. In Christ, we have died to the law that once condemned us to death for sin. That doesn't mean we won't be held accountable, but we don't go back and forth in and out of Christ once we're sealed with the Holy Spirit.

What do you think?

LookingUp
Mar 24th 2013, 05:59 PM
In Colossians 2:13 Paul wrote, “He forgave us all our sins”. The Greek word he used means each and every sin. That means past present and future.

1. How many of our sins did God know about before we were born? (All of them.)
2. How many of them did He record on our certificate of debt mentioned in the passage in Colossians referenced above? (All of them.)
3. How many of our sins did Jesus pay for on the cross? (All of them.)
4. How many of them were future at that time? (All of them.)
5. How many sins was He referring to when He said, “It is finished”? (All of them.)
6. At the time we were saved, how many of our sins did God forgive? (All of them.)

Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.Here's one of my points in this thread. Even if you guys disagree on whether or not in Christ our future sins are automatically forgiven, we are no longer under the law that once condemned us to death. The curse of the law doesn't hang over the heads of those in Christ. We do not have to be forgiven for future sin BECAUSE if not we will pay with death. We ask forgiveness to restore fellowship with God. And, of course, we will give an account at the judgment seat of Christ for the good and bad we've done.

Having said that, how can a future sin be forgiven if you don't ask for forgiveness for it? Isn't that why 1 John 1:9 says "if we confess our sins, he is faithful to forgive us our sins"?

Again, here's my point. Even if we die with unforgiven sin, we are not under the law that says, "the wages of sin is death." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law (Gal. 3:13). And although the Mosaic Law is the reference here, law entered in at the Garden of Eden when God said in so many words, "You sin, you die." That's law. And isn't Christ Jesus the Redeemer we've been waiting for to redeem us from the condemnation of that law?

Raybob
Mar 24th 2013, 07:47 PM
In Colossians 2:13 Paul wrote, “He forgave us all our sins”. The Greek word he used means each and every sin. ...

You are totally taking a piece of scripture to fit your idea, by taking 1/3 of a sentence, out of context, to prove a point. The sentence reads like this:

Col 2:13-15 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

The ordinance 'was' against us before we repented and began to live for Jesus, guided by the spirit of truth. That says absolutely nothing about future sin. This does:

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Brother Mark
Mar 24th 2013, 07:50 PM
Here's one of my points in this thread. Even if you guys disagree on whether or not in Christ our future sins are automatically forgiven, we are no longer under the law that once condemned us to death. The curse of the law doesn't hang over the heads of those in Christ. We do not have to be forgiven for future sin BECAUSE if not we will pay with death. We ask forgiveness to restore fellowship with God. And, of course, we will give an account at the judgment seat of Christ for the good and bad we've done.

Having said that, how can a future sin be forgiven if you don't ask for forgiveness for it? Isn't that why 1 John 1:9 says "if we confess our sins, he is faithful to forgive us our sins"?

Again, here's my point. Even if we die with unforgiven sin, we are not under the law that says, "the wages of sin is death." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law (Gal. 3:13). And although the Mosaic Law is the reference here, law entered in at the Garden of Eden when God said in so many words, "You sin, you die." That's law. And isn't Christ Jesus the Redeemer we've been waiting for to redeem us from the condemnation of that law?

Something to think about....

Rom 8:20-23
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
NKJV

IMO, the wages of sin being death has a bodily portion to it is as well. The creation itself groans waiting to be redeemed. We also grown within ourselves waiting for our bodies to be redeemed. Our bodies still die. But we get new ones. IMO, our bodies never would have died had Adam not eaten the forbidden fruit. Enoch, the 7th from Adam, was taken. 7th is the idea of complete, or mature. Enoch is a type of the mature Adam, who after having his character matured was taken by God. But because sin entered into the world, we all die. Jesus however, has redeemed our souls and spirit from death. But our body will still die and then it too will be redeemed.

In this sense, the wages of sin are still death. Also, there are scriptures like Hebrews 6 that need to be addressed. If we broaden the meaning of "law" to all commands from God, then one must believe in eternal security. Also, keep in mind that the 10 commandments didn't come with punishments or curses when they were given. (Perhaps another thread in that little thought.)

LookingUp
Mar 24th 2013, 08:29 PM
Even babies die, but not because wages are due. So, we all die physically, whether we sin or not, because we are born into a corrupt and dying world. The wages of sin that are due is eternal death. Babies don’t experience eternal death (second death).

Remember, Paul said that he was once alive apart from the law (Rom. 7:9), but once the commandment came, he died. In other words, as soon as he was old enough to know right from wrong, his own conscience condemned him to death because he knew he was guilty. Babies never get to that point in their conscience, so their conscience can’t condemn them to death.

But Paul says that we now have been released from the law (Rom. 7:6) and we now are apart from the law (Rom. 3:21). Once again, like new born babies, we are apart from the law. The old law can’t condemn us any longer, because we aren’t under that law any longer. We are alive in Christ and the law of Christ has no condemnation of death.

Brother Mark
Mar 24th 2013, 08:38 PM
Even babies die, but not because wages are due. So, we all die physically, whether we sin or not, because we are born into a corrupt and dying world. The wages of sin that are due is eternal death. Babies don’t experience eternal death (second death).

Remember, Paul said that he was once alive apart from the law (Rom. 7:9), but once the commandment came, he died. In other words, as soon as he was old enough to know right from wrong, his own conscience condemned him to death because he knew he was guilty. Babies never get to that point in their conscience, so their conscience can’t condemn them to death.

I can see where you are coming from there and am inclined to agree with you to a large degree.


But Paul says that we now have been released from the law (Rom. 7:6) and we now are apart from the law (Rom. 3:21). Once again, like new born babies, we are apart from the law. The old law can’t condemn us any longer, because we aren’t under that law any longer. We are alive in Christ and the law of Christ has no condemnation of death.

Again, I tend to agree. However, I do think we need to look at scriptures like Hebrews 6 and take those into consideration. God divorced Israel. The question would be ... why? When will that occur with the believer, and if so, what are the ramifications.

Like you, I am not convinced that if you sin, you die applies to the believer as it does to the unbeliever. But I do think that some can remove themselves from Christ and go back under the law.

LookingUp
Mar 24th 2013, 08:46 PM
I, personally, only think it looks to us as if they’ve removed themselves from Christ. If someone confesses Christ as Savior and then later continues in sin through willful rebellion against God, I don’t think they were ever in Christ in the first place. As much as I don’t believe God controls our choices, I do believe God knows our hearts so intimately that He knows whose profession of faith is genuine and whose is not.

Noeb
Mar 24th 2013, 10:01 PM
Please show us one.Us? Who's us? You are the only one I know here that believes this. I'm sure there's others, but, in this thread? I don't know, but like I said, we've been down this road a few time and you do know them.

Noeb
Mar 24th 2013, 11:34 PM
Here's one of my points in this thread. Even if you guys disagree on whether or not in Christ our future sins are automatically forgiven, we are no longer under the law that once condemned us to death. The curse of the law doesn't hang over the heads of those in Christ. We do not have to be forgiven for future sin BECAUSE if not we will pay with death. We ask forgiveness to restore fellowship with God. And, of course, we will give an account at the judgment seat of Christ for the good and bad we've done.

Having said that, how can a future sin be forgiven if you don't ask for forgiveness for it? Isn't that why 1 John 1:9 says "if we confess our sins, he is faithful to forgive us our sins"?

Again, here's my point. Even if we die with unforgiven sin, we are not under the law that says, "the wages of sin is death." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law (Gal. 3:13). And although the Mosaic Law is the reference here, law entered in at the Garden of Eden when God said in so many words, "You sin, you die." That's law. And isn't Christ Jesus the Redeemer we've been waiting for to redeem us from the condemnation of that law?If you have unforgiven sin you are not in Christ. I do not say we bounce in and out of Christ. If you are in Christ all sins are forgiven if you walk in the light. 1John does not say to ask for forgiveness. It says agree you have sinned IF you do. It's about our walk. We either walk in the light (v9) or darkness (v8).
The Gnostics walked in darkness and when they sinned thought they did not (v8).
The believers walked in the light and when they sinned thought they did (v9).
If we walk in the light, and agree we have sinned IF we do, his blood shed once for all sinners and all sin 2000 years ago continues to cleanse (v7).

Joh 3:18-21 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Believers are not condemned, do not have unforgiven sin. They are under Grace. It's not like a believer dies with unforgiven sin but it's overlooked because they are not under the law.

LookingUp
Mar 25th 2013, 12:01 AM
1John does not say to ask for forgiveness.That’s what it implies. IF we confess THEN He forgives. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive our sins” (1 John 1:9). Seems quite clear, Noeb.

Further, if we do not confess, THEN He does not forgive. If you die before you confess, your sin remains unforgiven.

Brother Mark
Mar 25th 2013, 12:08 AM
That’s what it implies. IF we confess THEN He forgives. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive our sins” (1 John 1:9). Seems quite clear, Noeb.

Further, if we do not confess, THEN He does not forgive. If you die before you confess, your sin remains unforgiven.

What do you make of this parable?

Luke 12:42-48

42 And the Lord said, "Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
NKJV

LookingUp
Mar 25th 2013, 12:52 AM
What do you make of this parable?

Luke 12:42-48

42 And the Lord said, "Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
NKJVThe ready servant demonstrates one with a circumcised heart while the unready servant demonstrates one with an uncircumcised heart and is compared to an unbeliever. Finally, there's the ignorant one whose ignorance is taken into consideration when it's time for judgment.

Noeb
Mar 25th 2013, 12:56 AM
That’s what it implies. IF we confess THEN He forgives. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive our sins” (1 John 1:9). Seems quite clear, Noeb.

Further, if we do not confess, THEN He does not forgive. If you die before you confess, your sin remains unforgiven.It implies the circumcised heart is forgiven. Lord have mercy on me a sinner....walk away justified. If we can be unforgiven simply because we did not ask for forgiveness for a sin then everyone is damned. You had to come up with this excuse of 'we are not under the law, so even though we are not forgiven, we are' thing. It's just unnecessary theological gymnastics, IMO. If you are not under the law and under grace you are forgiven as long as you walk in that grace. I posted the scriptures. He that believes (walks in the light -does not hid with sin in darkness --circumcised heart) is not condemned. Pretty simple.

LookingUp
Mar 25th 2013, 01:18 AM
If we can be unforgiven simply because we did not ask for forgiveness for a sin then everyone is damned.This comment shows you either didn't read my posts or you don't understand them. An unforgiven sin under the old law condemns one to death. We are under a new law: the law of Christ. This law does not condemn one to death for an unforgiven sin.


You had to come up with this excuse of 'we are not under the law, so even though we are not forgiven, we are' thing.I didn't come up with "we are no longer under law," Paul did. And it doesn't mean we are automatically forgiven. It means that unforgiven sin can no longer condemn us to death. There is no law that says "the wages of sin is death" under the law of Christ.


It's just unnecessary theological gymnastics, IMO. If you are not under the law and under grace you are forgiven as long as you walk in that grace. I posted the scriptures. He that believes (walks in the light -does not hid with sin in darkness --circumcised heart) is not condemned. Pretty simple.Many Christians over the last 2,000 have died with unconfessed and thus unforgiven sin on their hearts. Since they are under the law of Christ, they won't be condemned to death, but Paul says "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:15).

Brother Mark
Mar 25th 2013, 01:21 AM
The ready servant demonstrates one with a circumcised heart while the unready servant demonstrates one with an uncircumcised heart and is compared to an unbeliever. Finally, there's the ignorant one whose ignorance is taken into consideration when it's time for judgment.

What do you make of the "beaten with many" and "beaten with few" stripes. Do you think that any of that applies to believers?

LookingUp
Mar 25th 2013, 01:42 AM
What do you make of the "beaten with many" and "beaten with few" stripes. Do you think that any of that applies to believers?The one “beaten with many” is compared to an unbeliever. So, I do not think that the one “beaten with many” should be considered a believer. The one “beaten with few” is ignorant in comparison to the willfully prepared servant and the willfully unprepared servant. Thus, the one “beaten with few” doesn't sound like a believer or an unbeliever. I might compare this type of person to one who dies never having never heard the gospel, for example.

Brother Mark
Mar 25th 2013, 01:46 AM
The one “beaten with many” is compared to an unbeliever. So, I do not think that the one “beaten with many” should be considered a believer. The one “beaten with few” is ignorant in comparison to the willfully prepared servant and the willfully unprepared servant. Thus, the one “beaten with few” doesn't sound like a believer or an unbeliever. I might compare this type of person to one who dies never having never heard the gospel, for example.

The parable isn't addressing three different people though. It's addressing one in the first part saying "if he does x then y. But if he does a then b."

Luke 12:43-46
43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
NKJV

But that's just me. I don't see three different servants in the parable.

LookingUp
Mar 25th 2013, 01:57 AM
The parable isn't addressing three different people though. It's addressing one in the first part saying "if he does x then y. But if he does a then b."Well, above you've mentioned two scenarios so far.

Prepared servant: 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.

Unprepared servant: 45 But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,'… And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself

Ignorant character: 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few.

Brother Mark
Mar 25th 2013, 02:08 AM
Well, above you've mentioned two scenarios so far.

Prepared servant: 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.

Unprepared servant: 45 But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,'… And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself

Ignorant character: 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few.

The same man can be prepared at one time, and unprepared later because "the master delays". If that man is prepared, good for him. If that man is unprepared, it's bad for him. Two different states of being, but the same servant. The word "that" makes it specific. "That" as in "same"

LookingUp
Mar 25th 2013, 03:21 AM
The same man can be prepared at one time, and unprepared later because "the master delays". If that man is prepared, good for him. If that man is unprepared, it's bad for him. Two different states of being, but the same servant. The word "that" makes it specific. "That" as in "same"Just because it’s spoken of as the same man doesn’t mean he goes from prepared to unprepared. For example, if Mark prepares, he is blessed. But if, instead, Mark does not prepare, he will be held accountable. It’s just two different scenarios.

Noeb
Mar 25th 2013, 04:46 AM
This comment shows you either didn't read my posts or you don't understand them.Absurd. After reading on you know I did so what's your point here? Nothing



An unforgiven sin under the old law condemns one to death. We are under a new law: the law of Christ. This law does not condemn one to death for an unforgiven sin.No such thing as an unforgiven sin for someone walking in the new.



I didn't come up with "we are no longer under law," Paul did.Again, here you are not quoting what I said. Getting to be a habit? That's two days in a row. You did come up with "we are not under the law, so even though we are not forgiven, we are" because that concept is not in scripture.



And it doesn't mean we are automatically forgiven.What work must I do?



It means that unforgiven sin can no longer condemn us to death.Then it's not unforgiven.



There is no law that says "the wages of sin is death" under the law of Christ.You are confused. This isn't because there is unforgiven sin not counted, but because the law of Christ has made us free to not sin.



Many Christians over the last 2,000 have died with unconfessed and thus unforgiven sin on their hearts.No scripture indicates this is possible.



Since they are under the law of Christ, they won't be condemned to death, but Paul says "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:15).The context is 'preachers/teachers' not believers and their sin.

LookingUp
Mar 25th 2013, 05:59 AM
After reading on you know I didThen why’d you make a comment that demonstrated you didn’t?


No such thing as an unforgiven sin for someone walking in the new.John says differently: “IF we confess then He is faithful to forgive our sins” (1 John 1:9). How can He be faithful to forgive our sin if we haven’t confessed? You do realize it’s possible to die with unconfessed sin? Some send priests to deathbeds because they realize this reality.


You are confused. This isn't because there is unforgiven sin not counted, but because the law of Christ has made us free to not sin.Yet John says we do sin: “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us…and if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ” (1 John 1:8; 2:1).

mailmandan
Mar 25th 2013, 10:52 AM
You are totally taking a piece of scripture to fit your idea, by taking 1/3 of a sentence, out of context, to prove a point. The sentence reads like this:

Col 2:13-15 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

The ordinance 'was' against us before we repented and began to live for Jesus, guided by the spirit of truth.

So the "all" that Paul was making reference to only includes all the sins in the past, but future sins have NOT already been forgiven for those who are in Christ and are still hanging in the balance? How do verses 14 and 15 change the word all in verse 13? What do you think about Acts 13:39? - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from ALL things.. Does the word "all" here only refer to some or most things? I always understood that those who believe and are in Christ are forgiven of ALL sins while those who don't believe and are not in Christ and are not forgiven at all. I don't see a third camp of believers who are only half way forgiven or forgiven for the most part. If those who believe are justified from ALL things and redemption is through His blood (but only for sins in the past) what else is needed for sins in the future?

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

Ephesians 1:7 - In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace,

Colossians 1:14 - in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

So in each of these passages of Scripture, only our past sins are forgiven but our future sins are still hanging in the balance?


That says absolutely nothing about future sin. This does: 1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

How does this verse teach that we are only forgiven of past sins but not future sins?

mailmandan
Mar 25th 2013, 11:18 AM
Here's one of my points in this thread. Even if you guys disagree on whether or not in Christ our future sins are automatically forgiven, we are no longer under the law that once condemned us to death. The curse of the law doesn't hang over the heads of those in Christ. We do not have to be forgiven for future sin BECAUSE if not we will pay with death. We ask forgiveness to restore fellowship with God. And, of course, we will give an account at the judgment seat of Christ for the good and bad we've done.

Having said that, how can a future sin be forgiven if you don't ask for forgiveness for it? Isn't that why 1 John 1:9 says "if we confess our sins, he is faithful to forgive us our sins"?

Again, here's my point. Even if we die with unforgiven sin, we are not under the law that says, "the wages of sin is death." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law (Gal. 3:13). And although the Mosaic Law is the reference here, law entered in at the Garden of Eden when God said in so many words, "You sin, you die." That's law. And isn't Christ Jesus the Redeemer we've been waiting for to redeem us from the condemnation of that law?

If we had to confess every sin committed after our born-again experience in order to maintain our salvation, who would ever make it? What if we forgot to confess some sin? That puts the burden of salvation back on us by confessing every single sin that we commit as we commit them in order to maintain forgiveness. Another interpretation of 1 John 1:9 says this confession brings forgiveness in the sense of restoring our fellowship with God but not forgiveness in the sense of maintaining our salvation. Yet another interpretation is that John is not focusing on confessing every single sin that we commit as we commit them as an additional requirement to remain saved but has in mind here a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness. Notice that verse 8 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Verse 10 says, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." In contrast to if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Believing OSAS or NOSAS really seems to make a difference on how we interpret the rest of Scripture.

Noeb
Mar 25th 2013, 01:22 PM
No LU, some send priests to death beds because they believe false doctrine.

Oh, and John did not say we do sin. He's addressing Gnosticism, not whether or not we have to sin. To say we must is a direct contradiction of the words of Jesus and Paul. John agreed with them and said IF we sin.

John146
Mar 25th 2013, 03:43 PM
Finally, another thought to consider... being cast into the lake of fire is the 2nd death. That too is the wage of sin.This thread spawned from a discussion that LookingUp and I were having privately regarding Matthew 6:15 and what it means for people to not have their sins forgiven by the Father if they don't forgive others. She asked if that means if a believer who doesn't forgive others will lose their salvation and I said yes, because I don't see how a person whose sins aren't forgiven can be saved. I brought up Romans 6:23 to support my point. I told her that I believe Romans 6:23 is speaking of the wages of unrepentant and unforgiven sin as being the eternal second death, in contrast to "eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". It seems to me that he is contrasting death with eternal life there so that tells me he is contrasting two eternal fates: eternal death with eternal life. LookingUp thinks Paul was referring to the law that says "if you sin, you die (physically)" in Romans 6:23, but I don't believe that is what he had in mind there. If people refuse to repent of their sin, including not forgiving others, then their sins will not be forgiven and they can expect nothing but being sentenced to the second death on judgment day.

The context of Romans 6 supports the idea that he was speaking of spiritual death rather than physical death.

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What kind of death was he speaking about in verses 16 and 21? Was it not spiritual death? Notice that it is being a slave "of sin" that leads to death, not being a slave "of obedience leading to righteousness". So, the context of what Paul was talking about has to do with the wages of being a slave to sin. We (believers) are no longer slaves to sin, but we will still physically die. We are instead slaves "of obedience leading to righteousness" and Paul implies that being a slave "of obedience" does not lead to death. Since we are slaves of obedience rather than of sin leading to death then he couldn't have been speaking of physical death. He was speaking only of the kind of death that results when people present themselves as slaves to sin, which is spiritual death. The second death (Rev 20:15).

John146
Mar 25th 2013, 03:49 PM
John says differently: “IF we confess then He is faithful to forgive our sins” (1 John 1:9). How can He be faithful to forgive our sin if we haven’t confessed? You do realize it’s possible to die with unconfessed sin? Some send priests to deathbeds because they realize this reality.If someone is unrepentant about their sin, what should they expect to happen to them? This isn't about sinning and being sorry about it but forgetting to specifically ask forgiveness for it. We can't be condemned for not remembering to ask for forgiveness for every sin we've committed. No one would be saved in that case. But if our hearts are turned from God and we are unrepentant of our sins and if we aren't willing to forgive others then our sins will not be forgiven, according to scripture. You seem to be promoting a view that people's sins can be unforgiven but they can still be saved. How can that be? Isn't that what salvation is, having your sins forgiven? If your sins aren't forgiven then you're not saved. Simple as that. Please read my post #62 where I repeated a couple things I've said to you before but also showed the true context of Romans 6, which I hadn't done before in our private conversation regarding this issue.

BroRog
Mar 25th 2013, 03:50 PM
This thread spawned from a discussion that LookingUp and I were having privately regarding Matthew 6:15 and what it means for people to not have their sins forgiven by the Father if they don't forgive others. She asked if that means if a believer who doesn't forgive others will lose their salvation and I said yes, because I don't see how a person whose sins aren't forgiven can be saved. I brought up Romans 6:23 to support my point. I told her that I believe Romans 6:23 is speaking of the wages of unrepentant and unforgiven sin as being the eternal second death, in contrast to "eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". It seems to me that he is contrasting death with eternal life there so that tells me he is contrasting two eternal fates: eternal death with eternal life. LookingUp thinks Paul was referring to the law that says "if you sin, you die (physically)" in Romans 6:23, but I don't believe that is what he had in mind there. If people refuse to repent of their sin, including not forgiving others, then their sins will not be forgiven and they can expect nothing but being sentenced to the second death on judgment day.

The context of Romans 6 supports the idea that he was speaking of spiritual death rather than physical death.

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What kind of death was he speaking about in verses 16 and 21? Was it not spiritual death? Notice that it is being a slave "of sin" that leads to death, not being a slave "of obedience leading to righteousness". So, the context of what Paul was talking about has to do with the wages of being a slave to sin. We (believers) are no longer slaves to sin, but we will still physically die. We are instead slaves "of obedience leading to righteousness" and Paul implies that being a slave "of obedience" does not lead to death. Since we are slaves of obedience rather than of sin leading to death then he couldn't have been speaking of physical death. He was speaking only of the kind of death that results when people present themselves as slaves to sin, which is spiritual death. The second death (Rev 20:15).Notice that there isn't a corresponding "wages of righteousness", the contrast being the "wages of sin" and the "gift of God."

John146
Mar 25th 2013, 03:54 PM
So the "all" that Paul was making reference to only includes all the sins in the past, but future sins have NOT already been forgiven for those who are in Christ and are still hanging in the balance? How do verses 14 and 15 change the word all in verse 13? What do you think about Acts 13:39? - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from ALL things.. Does the word "all" here only refer to some or most things? I always understood that those who believe and are in Christ are forgiven of ALL sins while those who don't believe and are not in Christ and are not forgiven at all. I don't see a third camp of believers who are only half way forgiven or forgiven for the most part. If those who believe are justified from ALL things and redemption is through His blood (but only for sins in the past) what else is needed for sins in the future?

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

Ephesians 1:7 - In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace,

Colossians 1:14 - in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

So in each of these passages of Scripture, only our past sins are forgiven but our future sins are still hanging in the balance? Dan, if all of our future sins are already forgiven then 1 John 1:9 would make no sense at all. Why would we need to confess sins that are already forgiven? Scripture doesn't teach that we have to repent of our sins once and then we're done repenting. No, we need to continue to have a heart of repentance until the end of our lives. If all our future sins are already forgiven and we can't fall away from salvation then what is the point of this passage:

Heb 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

RabbiKnife
Mar 25th 2013, 04:01 PM
Maybe we need to make a distinction between
a. atonement and forgiveness
b. the consequence of sin for the unbeliever an the consequence of sin for the believer

John146
Mar 25th 2013, 04:07 PM
Here's one of my points in this thread. Even if you guys disagree on whether or not in Christ our future sins are automatically forgiven, we are no longer under the law that once condemned us to death. The curse of the law doesn't hang over the heads of those in Christ.But you have to remain in Christ in order to remain under grace and not be under that law. If you become unrepentant of your sins, including the sin of not forgiving others, then you are putting yourself under that law again. Scripture is clear that believers can fall away into a life of unrepentant sin again and the end result of that is described here:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

RabbiKnife
Mar 25th 2013, 04:09 PM
One willful sin?

Two willful sins?

Three willful sins?

How many willful sins return one to being under the law that once condemned us to death?


Are we saved because of not sinning, or are we saved because of the righteousness of Christ imputed to us?

And I wholeheartedly agree that apostasy is a possibility.

but it clearly cannot be the result of just one willing and unrepentant sin, can it?

John146
Mar 25th 2013, 04:16 PM
One willful sin?

Two willful sins?

Three willful sins?

How many willful sins return one to being under the law that once condemned us to death?You must not be seeing my point. It has nothing to do with the number of willful sins, but rather has to do with the condition of our hearts. If our hearts are turned away from God with no intention of returning to Him then what should we expect? Scripture says "a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.". What is your understanding of Heb 10:26-27?


Are we saved because of not sinning, or are we saved because of the righteousness of Christ imputed to us?We are saved because of humbling ourselves in repentance and trusting in Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. What if we stop being repentant of our sins and stop submitting to Christ and trusting in Him? What should we expect to happen in that case?


And I wholeheartedly agree that apostasy is a possibility.Which is my point, really. I'm not saying that apostasy occurs as soon as someone sins or anything crazy like that, so don't get me wrong. I'm not vouching for sinless perfection as being a requirement for salvation here.


but it clearly cannot be the result of just one willing and unrepentant sin, can it?That's not what I'm saying at all. We may be unrepentant for a time, but I'm talking about someone being unrepentant and having an attitude that they never intend on repenting. I'm thinking of someone falling into the condition that believers are warned about in Heb 3:12-14.

LookingUp
Mar 25th 2013, 04:37 PM
...Yet another interpretation is that John is not focusing on confessing every single sin that we commit as we commit them as an additional requirement to remain saved but has in mind here a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness...Excellent point here. Thank you.

LookingUp
Mar 25th 2013, 05:00 PM
What kind of death was he speaking about in verses 16 and 21? Was it not spiritual death? Even babies die, but not because wages are due. So, we all die physically, whether we sin or not, because we are born into a corrupt and dying world. The wages of sin that are due is eternal death. Babies don’t experience eternal death (second death).

Remember, Paul said that he was once alive apart from the law (Rom. 7:9), but once the commandment came, he died. In other words, as soon as he was old enough to know right from wrong, his own conscience condemned him to death because he knew he was guilty. Babies never get to that point in their conscience, so their conscience can’t condemn them to death.

But Paul says that we now have been released from the law (Rom. 7:6) and we now are apart from the law (Rom. 3:21). Once again, like new born babies, we are apart from the law. The old law can’t condemn us any longer, because we aren’t under that law any longer. We are alive in Christ and the law of Christ has no condemnation of death.


But if our hearts are turned from God and we are unrepentant of our sins and if we aren't willing to forgive others then our sins will not be forgiven, according to scripture.I agree. If we are in willful rebellion against God (Heb. 10:26). But, again, I don’t think Heb. 10:26 is about one who was ever truly committed God.


You seem to be promoting a view that people's sins can be unforgiven but they can still be saved. I got that from Mt. 6:15 and the fact that we’re no longer under a law that says the wages of sin is death. I don’t believe Mt. 6:15 is in the context of salvation. But if it is and is tied into the parable of Mt. 18, then he’s speaking of a “wicked” servant (Mt. 18:32) and that is not a saved person.


Isn't that what salvation is, having your sins forgiven? Partly, yes. We are forgiven for past sins in Christ. But through his death, Christ had to conquer death and rise again, so that in Him we would no longer be bound to the law that says the wages of sin is death. We are now under the law of Christ and there are no wages of death under the law of Christ.


Scripture is clear that believers can fall away into a life of unrepentant sin again and the end result of that is described here:…Heb 10:26I believe that’s speaking of one who was never truly committed to God.

LookingUp
Mar 25th 2013, 05:04 PM
...No, we need to continue to have a heart of repentance until the end of our lives. If all our future sins are already forgiven and we can't fall away from salvation then what is the point of this passage:

Heb 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,This is about unbelief, though. You must have belief to be saved.

LookingUp
Mar 25th 2013, 05:09 PM
One willful sin?

Two willful sins?

Three willful sins?

How many willful sins return one to being under the law that once condemned us to death?How many licks to the center of a tootsie pop? :-)


Are we saved because of not sinning, or are we saved because of the righteousness of Christ imputed to us?

And I wholeheartedly agree that apostasy is a possibility.

but it clearly cannot be the result of just one willing and unrepentant sin, can it?I agree with this. It's a continually rebellious heart. And I, personally, don't think the continually rebellious person was ever truly committed to God in the first place.

LookingUp
Mar 25th 2013, 05:34 PM
What if we stop being repentant of our sins and stop submitting to Christ and trusting in Him?That demonstrates one with no faith and it’s faith that saves.


I'm thinking of someone falling into the condition that believers are warned about in Heb 3:12-14.I think we’re more on the same page than I once thought. This is a warning to a group of people who are known as “believers.” But it’s not a warning of a condition believers can “fall” into; it’s a warning for them to check their hearts to see if it IS believing. “Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart.” He’s telling them to remain steadfast in faith rather than proving their hearts evil, unbelieving and disobedient as the Hebrews in the wilderness had done at the end of their lives. The Hebrews didn’t enter because of unbelief (Heb. 3:19). If at the end of your life you have no faith, then you’re not saved. It reminds me of Paul’s warning to examine your faith to see if it’s genuine (2 Cor. 13:5).

John146
Mar 25th 2013, 05:43 PM
Even babies die, but not because wages are due. So, we all die physically, whether we sin or not, because we are born into a corrupt and dying world. The wages of sin that are due is eternal death. Babies don’t experience eternal death (second death).So, are you now agreeing with me that Paul was talking about the wages of sin being eternal death, as in the second death (Rev 20:15)? I thought you believed he was only talking about physical death there?


Remember, Paul said that he was once alive apart from the law (Rom. 7:9), but once the commandment came, he died. In other words, as soon as he was old enough to know right from wrong, his own conscience condemned him to death because he knew he was guilty. Babies never get to that point in their conscience, so their conscience can’t condemn them to death.Not sure why you keep mentioning babies here. They really have nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make.


But Paul says that we now have been released from the law (Rom. 7:6) and we now are apart from the law (Rom. 3:21). Once again, like new born babies, we are apart from the law. The old law can’t condemn us any longer, because we aren’t under that law any longer. We are alive in Christ and the law of Christ has no condemnation of death.This is only true while we are repentant in our hearts and continuing to trust in Christ. But what if someone decides to no longer be repentant and follow Christ? If someone falls away then the wages of sin becomes death for them again as one cannot be saved if they are unrepentant (not talking about a brief time of struggle here, but an unrepentant heart that develops over some time).


I agree. If we are in willful rebellion against God (Heb. 10:26). But, again, I don’t think Heb. 10:26 is about one who was ever truly committed God.I think it is and it goes along with other passages like Heb 3:12-14 and Heb 6:4-6, which speak of believers falling away and departing from God.


I got that from Mt. 6:15 and the fact that we’re no longer under a law that says the wages of sin is death.Only as long as we are in Christ. But what if we fall away? It seems to me that if someone gets to the point of being unwilling to forgive others then they have likely fallen away and then the wages of sin is death for them, in contrast to the eternal life they would have if they remained in Christ.


I don’t believe Mt. 6:15 is in the context of salvation.I don't see how sin being forgiven or unforgiven can be seen as not being related to salvation. If we don't forgive others and the Father doesn't forgive us our sins because of that then that sin would remain forever. How can we be saved and still have sin being held against us? That doesn't make sense. Those who are saved and inherit the kingdom of God will have all of their sins forgiven, not just some of them.


But if it is and is tied into the parable of Mt. 18, then he’s speaking of a “wicked” servant (Mt. 18:32) and that is not a saved person.No, but it could be speaking of someone who had previously been saved. Look, I'm not saying that the wages of sin is death for believers who are currently saved. I'm saying that applies to unbelievers, including those who were saved but have fallen away. So, I think you've misunderstood my point up until now. Hopefully, it's clearer now.


Partly, yes. We are forgiven for past sins in Christ. But through his death, Christ had to conquer death and rise again, so that in Him we would no longer be bound to the law that says the wages of sin is death. We are now under the law of Christ and there are no wages of death under the law of Christ.No, but is it not possible to fall away and no longer be under grace and the law of Christ? If it is, then what? Wouldn't Romans 6:23 apply then as far as the wages of sin being death for that person?


I believe that’s speaking of one who was never truly committed to God.How about Heb 3:12-14 or Heb 6:4-6? You do believe a saved person can fall away, don't you? I thought you believed that.

John146
Mar 25th 2013, 05:46 PM
That demonstrates one with no faith and it’s faith that saves. It demonstrates that they don't have faith at the time, but doesn't mean they never had faith.


I think we’re more on the same page than I once thought.That's good. I'm trying very hard to clarify my view because I can tell that you're missing my points.


This is a warning to a group of people who are known as “believers.” But it’s not a warning of a condition believers can “fall” into;How do you figure? How can one keep their hope and confidence firm and steadfast until the end if they don't have that hope and confidence in the first place? I see it as a warning given to saved people to be careful to keep their faith until the end or else they could end up "departing from the living God" (Heb 3:12).

John146
Mar 25th 2013, 05:55 PM
This is about unbelief, though. You must have belief to be saved.It's about continuing to believe in order to remain saved or else you will end up "departing from the living God". Notice that we must "hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end". How can we "hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast until the end" if we don't have faith in the first place? It's a warning about being careful not to lose your faith.

Raybob
Mar 25th 2013, 06:24 PM
So the "all" that Paul was making reference to only includes all the sins in the past, but future sins have NOT already been forgiven for those who are in Christ and are still hanging in the balance? How do verses 14 and 15 change the word all in verse 13?The 'all' in that sentence all refer to the same subject spoken of, past sins.
What do you think about Acts 13:39? - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from ALL things.. Does the word "all" here only refer to some or most things? I always understood that those who believe and are in Christ are forgiven of ALL sins while those who don't believe and are not in Christ and are not forgiven at all. "All that believe" does not mean people that simply believe Jesus is "Lord" but they don't live for Him. To be saved, one must believe Jesus is their personal Lord. If Jesus is your personal Lord, you are living your life guided by the spirit of truth (Holy Spirit) that guides us in all things. If the Holy Spirit isn't guiding someone in all things, it's obvious to anyone that Jesus is not the Lord of their life, no matter how much they declare "Jesus is Lord". The devil believes Jesus is Lord, but that doesn't save him.

Jas 2:19-20 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


I don't see a third camp of believers who are only half way forgiven or forgiven for the most part. If those who believe are justified from ALL things and redemption is through His blood (but only for sins in the past) what else is needed for sins in the future? REPENTANCE!


Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

Ephesians 1:7 - In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace,

Colossians 1:14 - in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

So in each of these passages of Scripture, only our past sins are forgiven but our future sins are still hanging in the balance?
What do you not understand about "turn from darkness", AND "repentance", do you not understand? You quoted these verses, not me.



How does this verse teach that we are only forgiven of past sins but not future sins?

How else can you read the words, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin"? Christians have the Holy Spirit guiding them in ALL things. When the Holy Spirit guides you in all things, in every decision you make, every thought you have, it's not possible to sin or "follow the spirit of error".

1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

LookingUp
Mar 25th 2013, 07:13 PM
So, are you now agreeing with me that Paul was talking about the wages of sin being eternal death, as in the second death (Rev 20:15)? I thought you believed he was only talking about physical death there?Well, it seemed it led to physical death first (naturally), but then I realized that even babies die. And since babies aren’t paying any wages, I figured it’s most specifically eternal death.


Not sure why you keep mentioning babies here. They really have nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make.To show that we return to that time when we were alive apart from the law. Paul was once alive apart from the law (Rom. 7:9) and says we return to being apart from the law (Rom. 7:6). After our rebirth, we are no longer under the same law that condemned us to eternal death.


…But what if someone decides to no longer be repentant and follow Christ?...To stay true to other parts of Scripture, I’d say they were never truly committed to God in the first place. Their repentance wasn’t genuine.


I think it is and it goes along with other passages like Heb 3:12-14 and Heb 6:4-6, which speak of believers falling away and departing from God.I know you do, but I don’t think that view can comfortably reconcile with all Scripture given.


Only as long as we are in Christ. But what if we fall away? …Then this is what you’re saying:
Under law of sin = You sin, you die.
Under law of Christ = You sin, you’re back under law of sin, and so you die.

It’s the same law. There is no freedom from the law of sin in Christ in your view.

But, if one falls away from the faith, they were never of the faith. Paul warns that we should check to see if our faith is genuine. The author of Hebrews asks the same of us. If we look at our fruit and see that our character reflects that of a generally unforgiving person, we are not in the faith at all.


So, I think you've misunderstood my point up until now. Hopefully, it's clearer now.I think it is. We agree that the wages that is death applies to unbelievers. The only difference is that you think believers can become unbelievers and I don’t. But we both agree that those who consider themselves believers should evaluate their faith on a regular basis to make sure it’s genuine and repent and ask for forgiveness for any sins that we commit along the way. I don’t think we should assume we’re in the faith just because we’ve made one momentary confession of faith that Jesus is the son of God. Even the demons believe Jesus is the son of God.


How about Heb 3:12-14 or Heb 6:4-6? You do believe a saved person can fall away, don't you? I thought you believed that.I think it looks as if they’re saved, but they’re not.


I see it as a warning given to saved people to be careful to keep their faith until the end or else they could end up "departing from the living God" (Heb 3:12).I know you do. I think one can believe (like demons) and know for certain that Jesus is the son of God but not be saved. That’s why we are to evaluate ourselves, our faith, and our fruit to see if our faith is mental assent or genuine commitment to Christ Jesus as Lord and King.


It's about continuing to believe in order to remain saved or else you will end up "departing from the living God". Notice that we must "hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end". How can we "hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast until the end" if we don't have faith in the first place? It's a warning about being careful not to lose your faith.Remember, the author is speaking to Hebrews who are tempted to go back to the old way of things. If you, “supposedly converted Jew,” have an evil, unbelieving heart and doubt Christ’s sacrifice as utterly sufficient (Heb. 3:12) you can be hardened by sin (Heb. 3:13), and once you are, it will be impossible to renew you again to repentance (Heb. 6:6). This is similar to the leaders in Jesus’ day who had been enlightened (John 1:9), had tasted the heavenly gift (John 6:33-34), and had become partakers of the Holy Spirit and ages to come (Mt. 12:23). They recognized that Jesus was the son of God and crucified him anyway. So, these Hebrews who have experienced the same things and yet desire to continue in the old sacrificial system way of things “again crucify to themselves the son of God and put him to open shame.”

Brother Mark
Mar 25th 2013, 07:36 PM
Just because it’s spoken of as the same man doesn’t mean he goes from prepared to unprepared. For example, if Mark prepares, he is blessed. But if, instead, Mark does not prepare, he will be held accountable. It’s just two different scenarios.

Perhaps. But it also could be read that "Mark began to think that his master was delayed and acted accordingly and was no longer prepared". Right?

Brother Mark
Mar 25th 2013, 07:39 PM
One willful sin?

Two willful sins?

Three willful sins?

How many willful sins return one to being under the law that once condemned us to death?


Are we saved because of not sinning, or are we saved because of the righteousness of Christ imputed to us?

And I wholeheartedly agree that apostasy is a possibility.

but it clearly cannot be the result of just one willing and unrepentant sin, can it?

I agree whole heartedly with this post. IMO, it takes something along the lines of Esau who sold his birthright. That walking away from God completely, not some intentional sin, or willful act even if repeated.

God is our father. He disciplines us when we sin. If we were not his, while sinning, he would have no grounds to whip us for it. He only disciplines those that are his. Even when Israel willfully sinned by not keeping the Sabbath years, he still called them His people. The Babylonian captivity was the rod God used to chastise Israel with. They lived in willful, continued sin, for approximately 490 years and God still considered them his. There's a lesson in that, IMO.

John146
Mar 25th 2013, 08:09 PM
Well, it seemed it led to physical death first (naturally), but then I realized that even babies die. And since babies aren’t paying any wages, I figured it’s most specifically eternal death.Glad we can now agree on that.


To show that we return to that time when we were alive apart from the law. Paul was once alive apart from the law (Rom. 7:9) and says we return to being apart from the law (Rom. 7:6). After our rebirth, we are no longer under the same law that condemned us to eternal death.I agree.


To stay true to other parts of Scripture, I’d say they were never truly committed to God in the first place. Their repentance wasn’t genuine.What about a passage like Heb 6:4-6? How can one fall away to the point of not being able to be led back to repentance if they didn't genuinely repent in the first place?


I know you do, but I don’t think that view can comfortably reconcile with all Scripture given.I think it can, but I suppose it'd take a long time to go over all the scripture that you feel doesn't support that view.


Then this is what you’re saying:
Under law of sin = You sin, you die.
Under law of Christ = You sin, you’re back under law of sin, and so you die.Not exactly. Have I not emphasized that it's repeated unrepentant sin that leads to someone falling away? What you said here gives the impression that you think I believe that every time we sin we're back under the law of sin and death, but that is not at all what I'm saying.


It’s the same law. There is no freedom from the law of sin in Christ in your view.Wrong. You are missing my point entirely. Not sure what I can do to get you to see it. We might have to just agree to disagree before this starts getting too frustrating.


But, if one falls away from the faith, they were never of the faith.How can they fall away from something they were not part of?


Paul warns that we should check to see if our faith is genuine.Is your faith genuine right now? I would say it is. I think mine is, too. Does that guarantee that it always will be? To me, Heb 3:12-14 speaks of people with genuine faith and warns them that they must keep it until the end in order to avoid "departing from the living God". I can't make sense of that passage any other way.


I think it is. We agree that the wages that is death applies to unbelievers. The only difference is that you think believers can become unbelievers and I don’t. But we both agree that those who consider themselves believers should evaluate their faith on a regular basis to make sure it’s genuine and repent and ask for forgiveness for any sins that we commit along the way. I don’t think we should assume we’re in the faith just because we’ve made one momentary confession of faith that Jesus is the son of God. Even the demons believe Jesus is the son of God.I certainly don't assume that. Do you? I know my life changed dramatically when I became saved and I know I didn't just imagine it, so my belief that I'm in the faith isn't just a guess and something I'm hoping to be true with no idea if it is or not. I believe we can be certain of our current status of being saved while constantly keeping in mind the warning given in scripture of keeping our faith to the end.


Remember, the author is speaking to Hebrews who are tempted to go back to the old way of things.Exactly! That is key. Since they are being tempted to go back to the old way of things that means they left the old way of things and have embraced the new way and have been made "a new creation" in Christ. They are saved. You don't get tempted to come back to the old way of things unless you've left the old way of things behind. And, yet, they are still being warned to keep their faith or else they'll find themselves "departing from the living God".


If you, “supposedly converted Jew,” have an evil, unbelieving heart and doubt Christ’s sacrifice as utterly sufficient (Heb. 3:12) you can be hardened by sin (Heb. 3:13), and once you are, it will be impossible to renew you again to repentance (Heb. 6:6). This is similar to the leaders in Jesus’ day who had been enlightened (John 1:9), had tasted the heavenly gift (John 6:33-34), and had become partakers of the Holy Spirit and ages to come (Mt. 12:23). They recognized that Jesus was the son of God and crucified him anyway. So, these Hebrews who have experienced the same things and yet desire to continue in the old sacrificial system way of things “again crucify to themselves the son of God and put him to open shame.”Well, that's how you see it, but I see it as a warning to genuinely saved believers since only genuine believers have the firm and steadfast hope and confidence in the first place that Heb 3:14 says we must keep until the end.

BroRog
Mar 25th 2013, 09:16 PM
Are we saved because of not sinning, or are we saved because of the righteousness of Christ imputed to us?Neither. Christ's righteousness is not imputed to us. We are justified by our faith. We are not saved on the basis that we get credit for the righteous acts of Christ.

RabbiKnife
Mar 25th 2013, 09:24 PM
Neither. Christ's righteousness is not imputed to us. We are justified by our faith. We are not saved on the basis that we get credit for the righteous acts of Christ.

WHAT??????????????

psyche643
Mar 25th 2013, 10:18 PM
I'll second that incredulous exclamation.

BroRog, it sounds like you are saying that our justification does not come by Christ's righteousness/work on the cross. Is this a correct understanding?

LookingUp
Mar 25th 2013, 10:42 PM
Perhaps. But it also could be read that "Mark began to think that his master was delayed and acted accordingly and was no longer prepared". Right?I think it’s a mistake to think believers go from truly and genuinely prepared to unprepared.

LookingUp
Mar 25th 2013, 10:46 PM
I agree whole heartedly with this post. IMO, it takes something along the lines of Esau who sold his birthright. That walking away from God completely, not some intentional sin, or willful act even if repeated.

God is our father. He disciplines us when we sin. If we were not his, while sinning, he would have no grounds to whip us for it. He only disciplines those that are his. Even when Israel willfully sinned by not keeping the Sabbath years, he still called them His people. The Babylonian captivity was the rod God used to chastise Israel with. They lived in willful, continued sin, for approximately 490 years and God still considered them his. There's a lesson in that, IMO.Really good points here. It takes a willful, intentional act of "selling your birthright" to be hardened and be in the rare position of Heb. 6:6. I still say, however, that this one was never sealed with the Holy Spirit and made alive in Christ.

Brother Mark
Mar 25th 2013, 10:48 PM
Really good points here. It takes a willful, intentional act of "selling your birthright" to be hardened and be in the rare position of Heb. 6:6. I still say, however, that this one was never sealed with the Holy Spirit and made alive in Christ.

Then why do you think the writer of Hebrews says that Christ would need to be crucified a second time? If that person in Hebrews 6 was never saved, then why is a 2nd crucifixion required that he may repent "again"?

LookingUp
Mar 25th 2013, 11:31 PM
Then why do you think the writer of Hebrews says that Christ would need to be crucified a second time? If that person in Hebrews 6 was never saved, then why is a 2nd crucifixion required that he may repent "again"?A second crucifixion is never required so that one may repent again. One can repent whenever one truly desires to repent. But some can be hardened and repentance will be impossible for them (see Rom. 11:25).

Hebrews 6 doesn’t say that Christ would “need to be” crucified a second time, it says it’s as if they crucify him again in the same way the leaders in Jerusalem did. How does this happen? The author is writing to a group of Hebrews who were known as believers. Some were having a hard time letting go of the old way of things (i.e. sacrificial system). Some wanted to return to the old way of things. If any one of them returned to the old way of things (i.e. unbelief in sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice) after knowing all he did, he would have been “crucifying again to himself the son of God and putting him to open shame.” As far as the phrase “renew them ‘again’ to repentance” we have to keep in mind that these guys were Jews who were familiar with the process of repentance, sacrifice, renewal. They had already experienced this process many times, just as the leaders in Jerusalem had. The leaders in Jerusalem had been enlightened (John 1:9), had tasted the heavenly gift (John 6:33-34), and had become partakers of the Holy Spirit and ages to come (Mt. 12:23). They had enough knowledge to grasp that Jesus was the son of God and they crucified him anyway. The author of Hebrews is saying that any man who chooses to hold onto the old way of things has aligned himself with these same leaders in Jerusalem and it’s as if they “crucify again to themselves the son of God and put him to open shame.” Such an act is grounds for hardening and repentance will become impossible.

LookingUp
Mar 26th 2013, 12:19 AM
What about a passage like Heb 6:4-6? How can one fall away to the point of not being able to be led back to repentance if they didn't genuinely repent in the first place?See Romans 11:25

Check out post #89 and let me know if there are still unanswered questions.


I think it can, but I suppose it'd take a long time to go over all the scripture that you feel doesn't support that view.Yes, it would. But here’s the core of my thought. John says that he who has the son of God has life (1 John 5:12). It’s eternal life that’s spoken of here. Eternal things don’t stop. If you have eternal life and then later it stops, it wasn’t eternal.


… Have I not emphasized that it's repeated unrepentant sin that leads to someone falling away?...Okay, then is this more accurate:

Under law of sin = you sin, you die
Under law of Christ = you continually sin without repentance, you’re back under the law of sin, and so you die

Is there freedom from the law of sin in Christ in that view?


How can they fall away from something they were not part of?The same way those standing in the presence of Jesus’ miracles, healings, and teachings can fall away from something they were a part of.


Does that guarantee that it always will be?If at any point you discover it’s not genuine, it never was.


To me, Heb 3:12-14 speaks of people with genuine faith ”Take care that you don’t have an evil, unbelieving heart” is one with genuine faith? I don’t think so.


…that means they left the old way of things and have embraced the new way and have been made "a new creation" in Christ. They may have left the old way of things (like Judas) but that doesn’t mean they were made alive in Christ.

John146
Mar 26th 2013, 12:47 AM
See Romans 11:25

Check out post #89 and let me know if there are still unanswered questions.I'd like to know how it can be that someone could be a partaker of the Holy Spirit but not be saved. Look at Heb 3:1. Can someone be one of the "holy brethren" who are "partakers of the heavenly calling" and not be saved? Look at Heb 3:14 (again). Can one become a partaker of Christ and not be saved? No, right? A partaker of the heavenly calling and partaker of Christ is saved, so why not also a partaker of the Holy Spirit?


Yes, it would. But here’s the core of my thought. John says that he who has the son of God has life (1 John 5:12). It’s eternal life that’s spoken of here. Eternal things don’t stop. If you have eternal life and then later it stops, it wasn’t eternal.There is a sense in which we do not yet have eternal life, though. We have the hope of having incorruptible and immortal bodies but we don't have them yet. We are still waiting for the redemption of our bodies (Rom 8). So, we are waiting to inherit eternal bodily life and I believe that is not guaranteed until we have kept "the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end".


Okay, then is this more accurate:

Under law of sin = you sin, you die
Under law of Christ = you continually sin without repentance, you’re back under the law of sin, and so you die

Is there freedom from the law of sin in Christ in that view?Yes, because it's only if you've fallen away that you put yourself back under the law of sin and death. While we are still in Christ we are not under that law, but if we fall away and lose our faith then what should we expect to happen? To still be saved despite a lack of faith? Where does scripture say we can be saved without faith?


The same way those standing in the presence of Jesus’ miracles, healings, and teachings can fall away from something they were a part of.What do you mean? What were they part of except for a false religion?


If at any point you discover it’s not genuine, it never was.How do you figure? Do we no longer have free will after we're saved? If so then why does Paul warn us about quenching the Spirit and grieving the Spirit?


”Take care that you don’t have an evil, unbelieving heart” is one with genuine faith? I don’t think so.That's not what I said. It's a warning given to those who at least had faith at one point to examine themselves to see if they still have the faith they had that made them "holy brethren" in the first place. Do you think people called "holy brethren" were never saved?


They may have left the old way of things (like Judas) but that doesn’t mean they were made alive in Christ.In terms of Heb 6:4-6, do you think Judas or anyone like him would be described as a partaker of the Holy Spirit?

BroRog
Mar 26th 2013, 02:03 AM
I'll second that incredulous exclamation.

BroRog, it sounds like you are saying that our justification does not come by Christ's righteousness/work on the cross. Is this a correct understanding?Paul argues in Romans 4 that we are justified by faith. Our justification comes about due to our believing the message about Christ, and living in obedience as his disciples. Part of that message is that Christ died on the cross to provide reconciliation with God and the forgiveness of sins.

I don't object to that. I object to the Catholic teaching that God applies Christ's righteousness to me and that I am saved because when God looks at me, he sees Christ. That is not a Biblical doctrine.

psyche643
Mar 26th 2013, 02:06 AM
I object to the Catholic teaching that God applies Christ's righteousness to me and that I am saved because when God looks at me, he sees Christ. That is not a Biblical doctrine.

Oh interesting. I've never actually heard that is a Catholic doctrine. I use that phrasing quite frequently, but now you've got me thinking about what I really mean when I say it.

What is your opinion on using the phrase "Jesus' blood covers me?"

Brother Mark
Mar 26th 2013, 02:16 AM
A second crucifixion is never required so that one may repent again. One can repent whenever one truly desires to repent. But some can be hardened and repentance will be impossible for them (see Rom. 11:25).

Hebrews 6 doesn’t say that Christ would “need to be” crucified a second time, it says it’s as if they crucify him again in the same way the leaders in Jerusalem did. How does this happen? The author is writing to a group of Hebrews who were known as believers. Some were having a hard time letting go of the old way of things (i.e. sacrificial system). Some wanted to return to the old way of things. If any one of them returned to the old way of things (i.e. unbelief in sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice) after knowing all he did, he would have been “crucifying again to himself the son of God and putting him to open shame.” As far as the phrase “renew them ‘again’ to repentance” we have to keep in mind that these guys were Jews who were familiar with the process of repentance, sacrifice, renewal. They had already experienced this process many times, just as the leaders in Jerusalem had. The leaders in Jerusalem had been enlightened (John 1:9), had tasted the heavenly gift (John 6:33-34), and had become partakers of the Holy Spirit and ages to come (Mt. 12:23). They had enough knowledge to grasp that Jesus was the son of God and they crucified him anyway. The author of Hebrews is saying that any man who chooses to hold onto the old way of things has aligned himself with these same leaders in Jerusalem and it’s as if they “crucify again to themselves the son of God and put him to open shame.” Such an act is grounds for hardening and repentance will become impossible.

The Hebrew writer used the term "tasted" to describe Christ's death on the cross too (Heb. 2:9). In the same way that Christ "tasted" death, the Hebrew audience "tasted" the heavenly gift. IOW, it was a complete experience.


I don't think the danger in chapter 3 was going back to the "old way" even though the writer does address the old covenant shadows with the new covenant in later chapters. It seems instead, it was written to grow the people up to maturity (Heb. 5:11-6:1). The warning, IMO, was that once you lose it, you don't get it back. So move on past this in and out, lost and saved, concept that people seem to have. The lost again, saved again process was robbing them of their growth to maturity. After scaring his audience, he then reassured them. The writer goes on to assure them that they have an anchor of the soul that is sure and steadfast and that salvation doesn't depend on them but on the Anchor of the Soul.


If the end of the chapter is about salvation in summary, and I think it is, then the beginning would also be about salvation.


Heb 6:9


9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.
NKJV


and


Heb 6:13


13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself
NKJV


and


Heb 6:17-18
17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.
NKJV

Brother Mark
Mar 26th 2013, 02:17 AM
Oh interesting. I've never actually heard that is a Catholic doctrine. I use that phrasing quite frequently, but now you've got me thinking about what I really mean when I say it.

What is your opinion on using the phrase "Jesus' blood covers me?"

2 Cor 5:21
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
NASU

Vhayes
Mar 26th 2013, 02:23 AM
Galatians 3
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

psyche643
Mar 26th 2013, 02:42 AM
Thank you for the Scripture backup, Brother Mark and Vhayes.

hank1952
Mar 26th 2013, 02:54 AM
Oh interesting. I've never actually heard that is a Catholic doctrine. I use that phrasing quite frequently, but now you've got me thinking about what I really mean when I say it.

What is your opinion on using the phrase "Jesus' blood covers me?"

As far as I know this is a common grace doctrine. Our righteousness is not worthy of justification and salvation. I've never heard a RCC claim "the righteousness of Christ" for their justification but I don't see how else we could be justified, certainly not by our own.

Philippians 3:7-10
New King James Version (NKJV)
7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—

This is what I think "covered by the blood" means. 1 Corinth. 1:30 - He is our righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. :)

John146
Mar 26th 2013, 02:54 AM
The Hebrew writer used the term "tasted" to describe Christ's death on the cross too (Heb. 2:9). In the same way that Christ "tasted" death, the Hebrew audience "tasted" the heavenly gift. IOW, it was a complete experience.I agree. Also, being a partaker of the heavenly calling (Heb 3:1) or a partaker of Christ (Heb 3:14) isn't just a partial thing, either, so I don't know why being a "partaker of the Holy Spirit" (Heb 6:4) would be a partial partaking of the Holy Spirit of some kind.

psyche643
Mar 26th 2013, 03:07 AM
Ah, we must be interpreting these verses differently! In fact, one that you quoted, I feel, proves my point!




Philippians 3:7-10
New King James Version (NKJV)
...not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ...


Adding three italicized words below to make the sentence more clear:

Not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but having that righteousness which is through faith in Christ...

I see a standstill in our future, because we clearly interpret Scriptures differently. I don't believe this is a big deal though, since we both believe salvation comes through faith in Christ; it's how that actually works that we disagree on.

Still feel free to respond to my interpretation of the above verse!

hank1952
Mar 26th 2013, 03:59 AM
Ah, we must be interpreting these verses differently! In fact, one that you quoted, I feel, proves my point!

Adding three italicized words below to make the sentence more clear:

Not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but having that righteousness which is through faith in Christ...

I see a standstill in our future, because we clearly interpret Scriptures differently. I don't believe this is a big deal though, since we both believe salvation comes through faith in Christ; it's how that actually works that we disagree on.

Still feel free to respond to my interpretation of the above verse!

I don't have any problem with the three words you added for understanding the scripture I quoted. I like this one 2 Corinthians 5:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Corinthians+5:21&version=NKJV) For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him

hank1952
Mar 26th 2013, 04:45 AM
Ah, we must be interpreting these verses differently! In fact, one that you quoted, I feel, proves my point!



Adding three italicized words below to make the sentence more clear:

Not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but having that righteousness which is through faith in Christ...

I see a standstill in our future, because we clearly interpret Scriptures differently. I don't believe this is a big deal though, since we both believe salvation comes through faith in Christ; it's how that actually works that we disagree on.

Still feel free to respond to my interpretation of the above verse!

I'm confused, I don't think I told you anything about how I think justification or anything else works, other than I believe "we are made the righteousness of God in Christ" and that it is His righteousness that is given to us as a "gift from God". I will offer that I have been a pentecostal Christian for over 35 yrs. so that could be a problem. Saved by grace, through faith, not by works.
But we all love the Lord and our brothers and sister in Christ.

percho
Mar 26th 2013, 04:57 AM
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19 (The law showed all mankind that he was/is guilty of sin. The wages of sin is death.) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Cor. 15:3 (However) And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor. 15:17 (Without the resurrection his dying for our sins would be null and void.) (There would be no faith.)

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Romans 6:9 (Because of the resurrection of the Christ, death does not have dominion over him any longer.) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Romans 6:10 (Still speaking of the Christ.)
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:11 (Because he gave his life, died for our sins and because God resurrected him, the righteousness of God is imputed to you.) (Keep in mind if Christ is not raised and up to the present he is the only one that has been so raised, you would still be in your sins. Faith would be vain. There is a reason Gal. 3:23 states before the faith came we were under the schoolmaster, the law and in verse 25 after the faith did come we are no longer under the schoolmaster, the law.) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 6:14

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Romans 4:5-8

By Jesus laying down his life, for us and by God his Father giving him life again Jesus became, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The resurrected Jesus is the manifestation of the righteousness of God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:22,23

Through the faith of Christ the righteousness of God is imputed to you. The gift of God.

Now I know most of you will want put in bold, underline, bracket and what ever the three words, them that believe.

Who will or can believe? Paul left one morning on the road to Damascus an unbeliever. Was he seeking Jesus? Did he know who Jesus was? Did he care? Was he dwelling on his part in the stoning of Stephen? What was he going to Damascus for? What was the last thing on his mind concerning Jesus of Nazareth?

I wonder why he instantly went from unbelief unto belief?

psyche643
Mar 26th 2013, 06:21 AM
I'm confused, I don't think I told you anything about how I think justification or anything else works, other than I believe "we are made the righteousness of God in Christ" and that it is His righteousness that is given to us as a "gift from God". I will offer that I have been a pentecostal Christian for over 35 yrs. so that could be a problem. Saved by grace, through faith, not by works.
But we all love the Lord and our brothers and sister in Christ.

I think we may actually be on the same page...I responded to BroRog when he said "I object to the Catholic teaching that God applies Christ's righteousness to me and that I am saved because when God looks at me, he sees Christ. That is not a Biblical doctrine. "

and then you responded to what I said, and I thought you were offering a rebuttal from BroRog's perspective. But now from what you're saying, it sounds like we are in agreement?

We are made righteous in God's sight - and by that I mean he makes us righteous, not that our works contribute to the holiness at all.

When God looked at Jesus, he saw his perfect Son. Then Jesus died for us and his blood covers our sins. So now, when God looks at us, he sees the blood of Jesus, his perfect Son.

I think that was what BroRog and I were discussing; were you coming from a different angle?

LookingUp
Mar 26th 2013, 07:47 AM
I'd like to know how it can be that someone could be a partaker of the Holy Spirit but not be saved.You don’t think King Saul was a partaker of the Holy Spirit?


Look at Heb 3:1. Can someone be one of the "holy brethren" who are "partakers of the heavenly calling" and not be saved? Wasn’t King Saul considered one who was of the “holy brethren” who was a partaker of the heavenly calling?


Look at Heb 3:14 (again). Can one become a partaker of Christ and not be saved?If we have faith at the end of our life, then we have been partakers with Christ. If we don’t have faith at the end of our life, then we have not been partakers with Christ.


A partaker of the heavenly calling and partaker of Christ is saved, so why not also a partaker of the Holy Spirit?One can be a partaker of the heavenly calling (Heb. 3:1) and one can be a partaker of the Holy Spirit (Heb. 6:4) and yet not enter because of unbelief (Heb. 3:19). However, one who remains steadfast in faith is one who partakes in Christ.


In terms of Heb 6:4-6, do you think Judas or anyone like him would be described as a partaker of the Holy Spirit?Yes. And once you partake and still reject what you know is true (that Jesus is the son of God), you are hardened beyond repentance (Mt. 12:23-32).


There is a sense in which we do not yet have eternal life, though…There is a “sense” in which we do not yet have eternal life? That doesn’t make “sense.” ;-) Either you have it or you don’t. And as I mentioned, eternal things don’t stop, and I think that’s why Paul could say that when he died he’d be present with the Lord.


… you put yourself back under the law of sin and death….If you can “put yourself back under the law” then there is no freedom from the law of sin in Christ.


…if we fall away and lose our faith then what should we expect to happen? To still be saved despite a lack of faith? Where does scripture say we can be saved without faith?We can’t be saved without faith. But those who fall away had only the faith equivalent to the faith of demons (James 2:19).


What do you mean? What were they part of except for a false religion?Judas was a part of it. Judas was enlightened (John 1:9), had tasted the heavenly gift (John 6:33-34), and had become partaker of the Holy Spirit and ages to come (Mt. 12:23-32). Yet he fell away from all these things--he fell away from the faith even though he knew Jesus was the son of God (just like the demons knew).


How do you figure? Do we no longer have free will after we're saved?Will you have free will in the eternal kingdom? If yes, then why won’t you be able to reject God?

If our faith is truly genuine, we have already used our free will to say yes to God. And some free will choices have eternal consequences.


If so then why does Paul warn us about quenching the Spirit and grieving the Spirit?We can still sin.

mailmandan
Mar 26th 2013, 11:08 AM
Dan, if all of our future sins are already forgiven then 1 John 1:9 would make no sense at all. Why would we need to confess sins that are already forgiven? Scripture doesn't teach that we have to repent of our sins once and then we're done repenting. No, we need to continue to have a heart of repentance until the end of our lives. If all our future sins are already forgiven and we can't fall away from salvation then what is the point of this passage:

If John has in mind here in 1 John 1:9 a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness in contrast to verse 8 - "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" and verse 10 - "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us," then it makes perfect sense. I don't believe that John is saying here that we need to confess every single sin that we commit as we commit them after our born-again experience in order to maintain forgiveness/salvation. That puts the burden of salvation back on us by remembering to confess every single sin that we commit as we commit them. What if we forgot to confess some sin? When we repent of our sins and place our faith in Christ for salvation, we change our mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. This does not mean that we will never sin again (If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us - 1 John 1:8) but we no longer practice sin (No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God - 1 John 3:9). Repentance and faith are ongoing and are not a temporary superficial decision. If our future sins are not already forgiven and we can fall away from salvation then what is the point of 1 John 3:9?


Heb 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

You need to read verses 7-12 - Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' " Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:5). Not those who believed. Those who heard His voice, yet became hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, departed in unbelief. Just as we read in Hebrews 4:1-2 - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest. In Hebrews 10:26, we read about receiving the knowledge of the truth, yet if there is no heart submission to this knowledge, but instead a choice to willfully sin which stems from deliberately rejecting Christ, we see the results - drew back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The point is that the only one's in the end who will be identified as those who truly have become partakers of Christ will be those who hold fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. These faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance can be seen as proof of genuine conversion. Notice the wording in Hebrews 3:14 is not - and you will be become (future indicative) partakers of Christ if you (future indicative) hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. The writer also does not say "will remain." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if you hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. It's only natural for the writer of Hebrews to speak this way, for he is addressing a very large group of Hebrews who profess to be Christians, without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can he avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact some of them may not? Those who profess to have faith yet do not continue may very well be demonstrating that their faith was never firmly rooted or established from the start.

mailmandan
Mar 26th 2013, 11:53 AM
The 'all' in that sentence all refer to the same subject spoken of, past sins. "All that believe" does not mean people that simply believe Jesus is "Lord" but they don't live for Him. To be saved, one must believe Jesus is their personal Lord. If Jesus is your personal Lord, you are living your life guided by the spirit of truth (Holy Spirit) that guides us in all things. If the Holy Spirit isn't guiding someone in all things, it's obvious to anyone that Jesus is not the Lord of their life, no matter how much they declare "Jesus is Lord". The devil believes Jesus is Lord, but that doesn't save him.

I guess we will have to remain in disagreement about what "all" our sins/trespasses means. I understand the forgiveness of sins to include sin past, present, and future; the blood of Christ reaches "all" sin. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven. Confessing that Jesus is Lord is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord, but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is your personal Lord and Savior. If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved (Romans 10:9). People may give mere "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord," as in Matthew 7:22, yet as we read in 1 Corinthians 12:3, ..no one can say that Jesus is Lord (personal Lord) except by the Holy Spirit. The devil intellectually acknowledges that Jesus is Lord, but He is not his personal Lord. There is no commitment to Jesus as Lord.


Jas 2:19-20 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons also "believe" (mental assent) that there is "one God" but they certainly don't believe/trust in Jesus for salvation (Acts 16:31). Faith without works is dead, but we are still not saved by works. In James 2:14, we read of one who "says he has faith" but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. Works substantiate and confirm our faith.


REPENTANCE! What do you not understand about "turn from darkness", AND "repentance", do you not understand? You quoted these verses, not me.

Repentance in salvation is a change of mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. Acts 20:21 - repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. When we change our mind about our sinful position and need for a Savior and turn to Christ in faith for salvation, we have turned from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. Repentance does not mean that we will never sin again, but those who are born of God no longer practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 3:9).


How else can you read the words, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin"? Christians have the Holy Spirit guiding them in ALL things. When the Holy Spirit guides you in all things, in every decision you make, every thought you have, it's not possible to sin or "follow the spirit of error".

Do you interpret 1 John 3:9 to mean that Christians never sin again at all after becoming born of God?


1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1 John 4:1-6 - Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. 4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

John146
Mar 26th 2013, 01:51 PM
You don’t think King Saul was a partaker of the Holy Spirit?It all depends on what being a partaker of the Holy Spirit means, which I acknowledge is debatable. But I believe it means fully partaking of the Holy Spirit just as Heb 3:14 is speaking of fully partaking of Christ. That's my view. You can disagree if you want and that's fine, but I think I'm using solid reasoning here.


Wasn’t King Saul considered one who was of the “holy brethren” who was a partaker of the heavenly calling? I have no idea. What is that based on? But I'm referring to Hebrews 3, my friend. Who were the "holy brethren" being addressed there?


If we have faith at the end of our life, then we have been partakers with Christ. If we don’t have faith at the end of our life, then we have not been partakers with Christ.Heb 3:12-14 speaks of keeping our faith to the end and warns about that. Why the warning if that is guaranteed? Heb 3:14 is warning people who have a firm hope and confidence that they need to keep it until the end, implying that it's not a guarantee that will happen.


One can be a partaker of the heavenly calling (Heb. 3:1) and one can be a partaker of the Holy Spirit (Heb. 6:4) and yet not enter because of unbelief (Heb. 3:19).Please explain how that can be the case.


However, one who remains steadfast in faith is one who partakes in Christ.A partaker of Christ if one who fully partakes in Christ, not partially, right? So, why would a partaker of the Holy Spirit be someone who only partially partakes in the Holy Spirit?


Yes. And once you partake and still reject what you know is true (that Jesus is the son of God), you are hardened beyond repentance (Mt. 12:23-32).What is your understanding of partaking of the Holy Spirit then. Until you clarify that I'm not going to understand what you're trying to say.


There is a “sense” in which we do not yet have eternal life? That doesn’t make “sense.” ;-)Yes, it does. And I even explained it, so why are you questioning it? Are you going to have your body as it is now for eternity or will you die some day? If it does then how can you say you will have eternal bodily life in the corruptible and mortal body you're in right now?


If you can “put yourself back under the law” then there is no freedom from the law of sin in Christ.Are the warnings given to believers about keeping the faith just empty threats? Of course, you think they aren't being made to genuine believers so that's where we have the disconnect.


We can’t be saved without faith. But those who fall away had only the faith equivalent to the faith of demons (James 2:19).Where is your evidence to back that up (that they never had genuine faith)?


Judas was a part of it. Judas was enlightened (John 1:9), had tasted the heavenly gift (John 6:33-34), and had become partaker of the Holy Spirit and ages to come (Mt. 12:23-32). Yet he fell away from all these things--he fell away from the faith even though he knew Jesus was the son of God (just like the demons knew).I think it's quite a stretch to use Matt 12:23-32 as evidence that Judas had become a partaker of the Holy Spirit. I completely disagree with that one. Please explain how you think that passage indicates that Judas was a partaker of the Holy Spirit?


Will you have free will in the eternal kingdom? If yes, then why won’t you be able to reject God?This temporary lifetime is when God allows us to use free will to decide our eternal fate. Nowhere does scripture teach that we no longer have free will during this lifetime after we become saved/born again.


If our faith is truly genuine, we have already used our free will to say yes to God. And some free will choices have eternal consequences.

We can still sin.Why can we still sin? God doesn't want us to sin. We sin because we still have free will and have to continue being careful to make sure our hearts are right with God. What is your understanding of the following verse:

Phil 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Some people read verse 13 but miss verse 12. Notice that Paul is clearly talking to saved people here and is telling them to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". Now, why in the world would he tell them that if their salvation was already eternally secure? Then he says it is God who works in us for His good pleasure, but clearly that requires our cooperation, according to verse 12.

John146
Mar 26th 2013, 02:09 PM
If John has in mind here in 1 John 1:9 a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness in contrast to verse 8 - "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" and verse 10 - "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us," then it makes perfect sense. I don't believe that John is saying here that we need to confess every single sin that we commit as we commit them after our born-again experience in order to maintain forgiveness/salvation. That puts the burden of salvation back on us by remembering to confess every single sin that we commit as we commit them. What if we forgot to confess some sin? When we repent of our sins and place our faith in Christ for salvation, we change our mind about our sinful position and need for Christ to save us and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. This does not mean that we will never sin again (If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us - 1 John 1:8) but we no longer practice sin (No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God - 1 John 3:9). Repentance and faith are ongoing and are not a temporary superficial decision. If our future sins are not already forgiven and we can fall away from salvation then what is the point of 1 John 3:9? While we are born of God and have faith in Christ we don't practice sin. At least we shouldn't. If we remain repentant and are continuing to trust in Christ then it only follows that we aren't going to willfully practice sin. But, of course, some who are born again do sin and some fall into practicing sin, so 1 John 3:9 can't be saying that it's impossible for someone who has been born of God to sin at all (it's definitely not saying that) or impossible for them to practice sin. If someone gets to the point of sinning willfully and no longer are repentant of their sins then they will fall away. That's what I see being taught in the book of Hebrews. That verse is about what is the case while someone is keeping their trust in Christ but it doesn't say a person can't ever lose their faith.


You need to read verses 7-12Who told you I didn't read those verses? I have read them many times.


- Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' " Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:5). Not those who believed. Those who heard His voice, yet became hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, departed in unbelief. Just as we read in Hebrews 4:1-2 - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest. In Hebrews 10:26, we read about receiving the knowledge of the truth, yet if there is no heart submission to this knowledge, but instead a choice to willfully sin which stems from deliberately rejecting Christ, we see the results - drew back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The point is that the only one's in the end who will be identified as those who truly have become partakers of Christ will be those who hold fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end.But do you see that word "IF" there in those verses? Tell me, is someone who currently has confidence and hope saved or not? If they are saved and are guaranteed of keeping their confidence and hope until the end then what is the word "IF" doing there, which implies that it's not a guarantee for people who currently have that hope and confidence to keep it until the end?


These faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance can be seen as proof of genuine conversion. Notice the wording in Hebrews 3:14 is not - and you will be become (future indicative) partakers of Christ if you (future indicative) hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. In our English translations, it doesn't say that but the way it's worded really doesn't make sense. It's speaking of something that will be the case once "the end" comes, not something that is the case now as we have not yet kept our confidence until the end. So, I believe it's actually saying we will have become full partakers of Christ if we keep our confidence steadfast until the end.

I'd like to know how you interpret this passage:

Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Here, Paul speaks figuratively of Gentile believers being included with Israelite believers in one olive tree. I believe the olive tree clearly represents the kingdom of God or church as other scripture speaks of Jew and Gentile believers being brought together into one body/kingdom/church. Notice that he tells the Roman Gentile believers "you stand by faith". He's talking to saved people there. Then he says God's goodness will be shown to them "if you continue in His goodness". See how that is conditional? There's no guarantee there. Then he said if they don't continue in His goodness, which would require them to continue to have faith, then they also would be cut off for unbelief just as the Israelite unbelievers were. I don't know how someone could read a passage like this and think that the faith you have now guarantees that you will keep it until the end with no chance of losing it and being cut off from the kingdom of God.

John146
Mar 26th 2013, 02:12 PM
I guess we will have to remain in disagreement about what "all" our sins/trespasses means. I understand the forgiveness of sins to include sin past, present, and future; the blood of Christ reaches "all" sin.I agree with that, but scripture says that is conditional upon having faith in Him and we must keep faith in Him until the end in order to have all sin past, present and future forgiven.

RabbiKnife
Mar 26th 2013, 02:18 PM
Eternal destination is not about what sin we are carrying around.

Eternal destination is about relationship with God.

Brother Mark
Mar 26th 2013, 04:41 PM
Eternal destination is not about what sin we are carrying around.

Eternal destination is about relationship with God.

Agreed! A thousand times agreed!

Dilligence
Mar 26th 2013, 05:47 PM
Are those in Christ still under the law that says, “You sin, you die” (Romans 6:23)?

Paul says (from Romans 7 & 8):
For the wages of sin is death. Do you know that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? You were made to die to the law through Christ. We have been released from the law. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those in Christ. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

It is said we are forgiven of our sins when we repent and put our faith in Christ Jesus. We are baptized into the body of Christ. We are taken from being under the law (which condemns us to death because we have sinned) and put under Christ. Once under Christ, baptized into the body of Christ and “in Christ,” can our future sin condemn us to death (this is not in referring to being in a constant state of rebellion that leads us to continually practice sin)?

All death comes as the result of sin. Death and suffering of the body come as the result of sin, but the death spoken of here, in the above scripture, means the spiritual and eternal death in the future. He who sins will receive the wages of sin, eternal death.

But the free gift of God is eternal life. The gift which God in His mercy is eternal life. It is the gift of God. None can give it, none can earn it. He gives it to those who accept it on the condition He prescribes.

hank1952
Mar 26th 2013, 07:21 PM
I think we may actually be on the same page...I responded to BroRog when he said "I object to the Catholic teaching that God applies Christ's righteousness to me and that I am saved because when God looks at me, he sees Christ. That is not a Biblical doctrine. "

and then you responded to what I said, and I thought you were offering a rebuttal from BroRog's perspective. But now from what you're saying, it sounds like we are in agreement?

We are made righteous in God's sight - and by that I mean he makes us righteous, not that our works contribute to the holiness at all.

When God looked at Jesus, he saw his perfect Son. Then Jesus died for us and his blood covers our sins. So now, when God looks at us, he sees the blood of Jesus, his perfect Son.

I think that was what BroRog and I were discussing; were you coming from a different angle?
I apologize, I did not make myself clear. I was disagreeing with him and his statement, about Christ righteousness being imputed to us, as a rcc doctrine. I don't believe it is.
And I was agreeing with you and trying to explain how I see the "blood of Christ covering us" as in He has done everything that is necessary for our salvation in Him. I think we agree. :)

LookingUp
Mar 26th 2013, 07:23 PM
It all depends on what being a partaker of the Holy Spirit means, which I acknowledge is debatable. But I believe it means fully partaking of the Holy Spirit… You mean indwelling? I don't think the passage comes off that way at all. King Saul was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit but partook in the Holy Spirit. I think Simon is a good example of one who partook of the Holy Spirit as he saw the Spirit working when he observed signs and great miracles taking place (Acts 8). He had believed in Jesus as the son of God, and he had been baptized with water (Acts 8:13), but he had not received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17-19).


…Who were the "holy brethren" being addressed there?...If your pastor read a letter to his congregation and it began, “Dear holy brothers, consider this…” does that mean every person in the congregation is saved? Just because the author of Hebrews begins his sentence, “Therefore holy brethren, partakers of a holy calling, consider this…” does not mean every person listening to the reading of that letter is saved.


Please explain how that can be the case.The above explains where I’m coming from a little better. King Saul had a heavenly calling and partook of the Holy Spirit and fell away because of unbelief.


…Heb 3:14 is warning people who have a firm hope and confidence that they need to keep it until the end, implying that it's not a guarantee that will happen.How is it a warning to one who has a firm hope? It’s a warning to check their hearts to see that it is not evil and unbelieving (verse 12). How is that possibly one with a firm hope? He warns that the one with an evil and unbelieving heart will be hardened by sin and fall away because of unbelief. The one with a firm hope won’t.


A partaker of Christ if one who fully partakes in Christ, not partially, right? So, why would a partaker of the Holy Spirit be someone who only partially partakes in the Holy Spirit?One who remains in faith demonstrates he has partaken in Christ. It doesn’t mean partially, fully or otherwise; it’s simply partaking in Christ. Hebrews 6 also speaks of partaking and it doesn’t mean partially, fully or otherwise; it’s simply partaking in the Holy Spirit. But what it’s not is indwelling, because it would have been written as such (i.e. received Holy Spirit).


What is your understanding of partaking of the Holy Spirit then. Until you clarify that I'm not going to understand what you're trying to say.An example would be what Simon witnessed. Being a firsthand witness to the undeniable power of the Spirit - signs and great miracles, healings, casting out of demons, tongues at the laying on of hands, etc.


…Are you going to have your body as it is now for eternity or will you die some day?...This same body will be raised and glorified. Jesus says we don’t die. Paul says to be apart from the body is to be with the Lord (which means we are alive even if our body lies asleep). We are told that if we have the Son we have life and I believe it. Eternal things don’t stop and if it could stop, then it wasn’t eternal. The life I have can’t stop. None of this means I should forget about the warnings in Scripture to test my faith and plumpness of my fruit. :-) If I have no fruit and find my faith mere mental assent, I've been fooling myself and I'm not saved.


Where is your evidence to back that up (that they never had genuine faith)?1 John 2:19

Where is your evidence that says they did have genuine faith?


… Please explain how you think that passage indicates that Judas was a partaker of the Holy Spirit?...Anytime one was an eyewitness to Jesus’ miracles, healings, casting out of demons, he partook in the power of the Holy Spirit and the powers of the ages to come. “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you” (Mt. 12:28; Luke 11:20).


This temporary lifetime is when God allows us to use free will to decide our eternal fate. Nowhere does scripture teach that we no longer have free will during this lifetime after we become saved/born again.I’m not saying we don’t have free will. We do. Those who are saved have the freedom to not believe in Christ Jesus. But they won’t if their faith is genuine.


Why can we still sin? God doesn't want us to sin. We sin because we still have free will and have to continue being careful to make sure our hearts are right with God. What is your understanding of the following verse:…

…and is telling them to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". Now, why in the world would he tell them that if their salvation was already eternally secure?I don’t think the phrase “work out your own salvation” is saying “make sure your salvation is secure.” He’s asking them to cooperate in their own sanctification.

John146
Mar 26th 2013, 07:51 PM
You mean indwelling? Yes.


I don't think the passage comes off that way at all. It sure does to me. I can't think of how the description given in verses 4 and 5 can be speaking of anyone except those who have been born of the Spirit.


King Saul was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit but partook in the Holy Spirit.Again, I believe it's speaking of fully partaking in the Holy Spirit so we differ in our understanding of what being a partaker of the Holy Spirit means in Heb 6:4.


If your pastor read a letter to his congregation and it began, “Dear holy brothers, consider this…” does that mean every person in the congregation is saved?I think it would be weird to address a group that way if not all of them were "holy brothers". Why do that?


Just because the author of Hebrews begins his sentence, “Therefore holy brethren, partakers of a holy calling, consider this…” does not mean every person listening to the reading of that letter is saved.I believe it means his message was intended particularly for those who would be considered "holy brethren", which would only be those who are saved. Sure, even unsaved people could read it, but that doesn't mean it was intended for them.


The above explains where I’m coming from a little better.I know where you're coming from so I don't think you have to explain it any further. I just disagree for the reasons I've stated.


How is it a warning to one who has a firm hope?Because you can't keep a firm hope until the end if you don't have a firm hope in the first place.

psyche643
Mar 27th 2013, 07:01 AM
I apologize, I did not make myself clear. I was disagreeing with him and his statement, about Christ righteousness being imputed to us, as a rcc doctrine. I don't believe it is.
And I was agreeing with you and trying to explain how I see the "blood of Christ covering us" as in He has done everything that is necessary for our salvation in Him. I think we agree. :)

Haha, awesome! No wonder I was like, "Uh, the verses you reference are proving MY point!" =P

mailmandan
Mar 27th 2013, 11:29 AM
While we are born of God and have faith in Christ we don't practice sin. At least we shouldn't.

John said we don't. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. If no one who is born of God practices sin, then how can someone who is born of God practice sin and lose their salvation?


If we remain repentant and are continuing to trust in Christ then it only follows that we aren't going to willfully practice sin.

Is that what John said in 1 John 3:9? Some who are born of God will not remain repentant and will not continue to trust in Christ and lose their salvation? Why is it that someone who is born of God will not practice sin? Because he pulled himself up by his bootstraps and conjured up the strength within himself not to do so or because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God? It's not all about us.


But, of course, some who are born again do sin and some fall into practicing sin, so 1 John 3:9 can't be saying that it's impossible for someone who has been born of God to sin at all (it's definitely not saying that) or impossible for them to practice sin.

1 John 3:9 clearly states that "no one who is born of God practices sin" yet you say that some who are born of God fall into practicing sin. I agree with you that 1 John 3:9 can't be saying that it's impossible for someone who has been born of God to sin at all. None of us are sinless and perfect, yet I just can't see how "no one who is born of God practices sin" can mean "some who are born of God will practice sin." In Galatians 5:19-21, Paul mentions a list of sins and states that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul also mentions these sins and says that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. The righteous are no longer unrighteous. Paul said such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. I'm not seeing a reversal here of being washed, sanctified and justified here.


If someone gets to the point of sinning willfully and no longer are repentant of their sins then they will fall away. That's what I see being taught in the book of Hebrews. That verse is about what is the case while someone is keeping their trust in Christ but it doesn't say a person can't ever lose their faith.

There are verses in Hebrews that appear to be saying that, yet when I read those verses in context, I'm not convinced that argument is conclusive beyond the shadow of a doubt.


Who told you I didn't read those verses? I have read them many times.

I wasn't trying to imply that you never read them at all. Just that you need to read those verses together before reaching a verdict of loss of salvation. 7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice, 8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' (DOES THAT SOUND DESCRIPTIVE OF HEARTS THAT ARE SAVED?) 11 So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' 12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. Jude 1:5 mentions - The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Nothing is mentioned about them previously believing and being saved. God had revealed Himself to these Israelites and chosen them as His people, but that does not mean they were ALL saved. In a very large group of professing believers, it's not hard to find unbelievers mixed in. Just because the letter of Hebrews is addressed to Hebrew Christians does not mean that "everyone" in this very large group of Hebrews must be a genuine believer. If a Pastor of a very large church addresses the congregation on Sunday morning, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ," and the message that day is for believers does that mean that everyone in that church on Sunday MUST be a genuine believer?


But do you see that word "IF" there in those verses? Tell me, is someone who currently has confidence and hope saved or not? If they are saved and are guaranteed of keeping their confidence and hope until the end then what is the word "IF" doing there, which implies that it's not a guarantee for people who currently have that hope and confidence to keep it until the end?

Yet the word IF follows "For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ." If the word IF followed we "will become" then I would completely agree with you. It's the same in verse 6 - whose house we are, (not will become) IF we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm until the end. If someone is firmly rooted and established in confidence and hope then they are saved. I believe confidence that is not held to the end was never firmly rooted or established from the start. I don't believe the writer of Hebrews is saying here that some "saved" people will fail to hold confidence and hope until the end and lose their salvation. I see holding fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end as proof that we really HAVE BECOME partakers of Christ. Those who fail to hold the beginning of their confidence firm unto the end demonstrate that they have NOT become partakers of Christ.


In our English translations, it doesn't say that but the way it's worded really doesn't make sense. It's speaking of something that will be the case once "the end" comes, not something that is the case now as we have not yet kept our confidence until the end. So, I believe it's actually saying we will have become full partakers of Christ if we keep our confidence steadfast until the end.

HAVE BECOME is not speaking of the end, but the past with present results. The writer of Hebrews clearly did not say "will become" and he did not say "full" partakers of Christ. Again, we see - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ. If the writer said "will become" then I would certainly agree with you.


I'd like to know how you interpret this passage:

Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Here, Paul speaks figuratively of Gentile believers being included with Israelite believers in one olive tree. I believe the olive tree clearly represents the kingdom of God or church as other scripture speaks of Jew and Gentile believers being brought together into one body/kingdom/church. Notice that he tells the Roman Gentile believers "you stand by faith". He's talking to saved people there. Then he says God's goodness will be shown to them "if you continue in His goodness". See how that is conditional? There's no guarantee there. Then he said if they don't continue in His goodness, which would require them to continue to have faith, then they also would be cut off for unbelief just as the Israelite unbelievers were. I don't know how someone could read a passage like this and think that the faith you have now guarantees that you will keep it until the end with no chance of losing it and being cut off from the kingdom of God.

If our salvation is not guaranteed, then why did Paul say in Ephesians 1:13-14 - "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." In 2 Corinthians 1:22 we read - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. And in 2 Corinthians 5:5 we read - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

In regards to Romans 11:17-24, passages such as these are very difficult to explain, if 100% of these Gentiles are saved. But if God's goodness is extended to both saved and unsaved Gentiles, then these passages fit in quite nicely. Both saved and unsaved Jews shared in the goodness of God in the Old Testament. And when the Jewish people proved to be faithless, God cut them off (Romans 11:19-21). Likewise, both saved and unsaved Gentiles share in the goodness of God in the New Testament and when Gentiles prove to be faithless, God cuts them off (Romans 11:22b). In Romans 11:24, if they do not continue in unbelief will be grafted back in. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? If the Jews were the "natural branches" then this means they were all naturally in the olive tree to begin with but not all of them were saved. Right? Does the olive tree simply represent "salvation" or is there more to this?

I was listening to a broadcast of Through the Bible with Les Feldick the other day that discussed these verses. Here was his take on these passages of Scripture from a dispensational point of view:

Romans 11:16,17

"For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. (so now we come into an interesting illustration, we're going to go into horticulture.) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, (speaking to Gentiles now.) being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, (the Jews) and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"

Now we need to stop a moment. Do you realize when you study this verse that it's the direct opposite of how we normally graft things? It's totally opposite, because under normal grafting you take the old root that is native to a particular area. It has survived the climate and soil, and all that, it is native, but it's fruit probably isn't all that good. So what do the horticulturists do? Well they breed up a good hybrid, and of course the only one that I'm acquainted with is the pecan tree. So we've got the old natural pecan, and then you take a hybrid, which is your big nice soft shell, and you cut off that old original trunk of that native pecan, and graft in this beautiful paper shell. Now that's the normal way of grafting, but this is opposite. This is taking the beautiful tree, and casting it aside, and grafting in an old wild olive tree. Now if I under stand the wild olive tree correctly, it didn't produce any fruit, it was worthless.

And that's like the Gentiles are. We, as a no-good olive tree, have been grafted into the beautiful original which was Israel. And when I teach this I want to make it very plain that we're not talking about the believers here being grafted in, although we're certainly part of it, but we're talking about the whole Gentile system that has been grafted into that which was original Israel. Now, stop and think, How and through what man did the nation of Israel come about? Abraham. All right let's go back to Genesis Chapter 12 for a moment, and we'll go directly to verse 3. And remember this has never be abrogated, God has never taken this promise away. Paul has never refuted it, and no one else has, so it's still valid. It's still set in concrete.

Genesis 12:3

"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee (Abraham) shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Not just Israel, but all the families of the earth. Now then we know that ever since this promise was given to Abraham until we get into Paul going to the Gentiles, Israel enjoyed the fatness of the root of Abraham. Israel was in the promises given to Abraham, but never lose sight of the fact that God also told Abraham he'd be a blessing to all the rest of the world also. Now he can't do it two times at once, so what did he have to do? God had to set Israel aside, broke them off from the fatness of root of Abraham, and He put in Gentiledom. I'm going to use the word Gentiledom as a group of people, the whole Gentile system has now been by the Grace of God, put into the place that Israel enjoyed in that Old Testament. Now wait a minute. Did that mean that all those Israelites were believers? No. But they had the opportunity to be. They had the Word of God, they had everything going for them, but again most of them weren't true believers.

Most of the Israelites in the Old Testament were renegades in unbelief, but yet they were on the root of Abraham. Are you with me? Gentiledom is in the same situation today, they're resting on the root of Abraham. Now that doesn't make us Jews anymore than a grafted paper shell pecan can become a native pecan. We are merely feasting off that which God had promised the man Abraham. Now as the Gentile system has been feasting on all the blessings of the father of Israel, Abraham, that means that The Gospel (Reference I Corinthians 15:1-4) has been going to the Gentiles, he's had just as much opportunity at Salvation, and a relationship with God as Israel did back there. But what has Gentiledom done with this glorious opportunity of being in the place of blessing that Israel lost? They did the same thing that Israel did, they've walked it underfoot, they have cast it aside, they've said thanks, but no thanks. Even though they're in that place of tremendous opportunity, they won't take advantage of it. So the Gentiles have experienced that position now for almost two thousand years. What's going to happen next?

Romans 11:17-20a

"And if some of the branches (Israel) be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, (Gentiles) wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness (promises to Abraham.) of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches, But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. (that would be the Gentile boast) Well; because of unbelief they (Israel) were broken off, and thou standest by faith."

Israel was enjoying the fatness of Abraham, but, what did they do with it? They rejected it in unbelief, and they lost that exalted position that we read about in Romans Chapter 2 or 3. They had the Word of God, and had everything else going for them. So continuing on in verse 20 Paul tell us:

Romans 11:20b-22

"Be not high-minded, (as a Gentile) but fear. (and here's why.) For if God spared not the natural branches, (Israel, the good tree) take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, (Israel) severity; (oh, absolutely God dealt with Israel severely because they rejected so much.) but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

But you see, we Gentiles are fast approaching that same place, where God is going to finally get fed up with the Gentile world system who are rejecting His offer of Grace, and who are rejecting His blessings, who are rejecting believing Who He is and what He is. So what's He going to do? He's going to do the same thing to the Gentiles that He did to Israel. He's going to break off the Gentile, and when He's through with the Gentile, who is He going to put back? The Jew. Do you see how beautiful that is? See what I meant four programs ago when I said anybody who maintains that God is through with the Jew, that there's no more fulfilling of Old Testament prophecy, they've got to take this chapter and tear it out. They have to throw it away because it just sits here and it trumpets, just screams at us, that God is not through with Israel. God is yet going to fulfill all the promises made to Abraham. We've just been fortunate enough that in the interim, while they've been blinded, we've been brought into the place of blessing, as Gentiles! I'm not talking about believers necessarily, I'm talking about the whole Gentile world. We've been brought into the place of having the simple requirement of believing The Gospel. Verse 22 again:

Romans 11:22,23a

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, (Gentiledom) goodness: if thou continue in his goodness, (in other words, respond to this offer of Grace and recognize all of His blessings that have been showered upon us) otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in:..."

In other words, one day their unbelief is going to be removed. Will a nation be born in a day? Absolutely! When they see Him coming in the clouds of glory! That remnant of Israel (I think down there in the mountains southeast of Jerusalem that went out in Matthew 24). God has protected them down there for three and one half years from the horrors of Tribulation. He keeps them just like He did Israel in the wilderness under Moses. And that remnant of Israel, when they see Him coming in the clouds of glory, in power, crushing the Gentile world that has taken over the Middle East, then they will recognize Who He is. They will see Him and the nation, the remnant will be saved in a moment and they'll be grafted in. Continuing on:

Romans 11:23b

"... for God is able to graft them in again."

God's not through with Israel. Sure they've been set aside for over 1900 years, but that's nothing in God's program. That's just a flick of the eyelid. And He's going to graft them in again.

Romans 11:24a

"For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature,..."

It's unproductive. I think the name of it was the old Oleander Tree, if I'm not mistaken. It was an olive tree but it didn't produce any olives. And so that's the analogy of Gentiles. They were no good, they were pagan. God had no reason to go to them except by what? By grace! And so He took the no-good Gentiles and He brought them in and made them a part of the fatness of the Abrahamic Promises. But He says be careful. If you reject this like Israel did, you're going to be cut off just as well as they were and it's going to happen. The day is coming when God will stop the Age of Grace and He's going to set the Gentiles into the horrors of the Tribulation and He's going to turn again to His Covenant people. Looking at verse 24 again:

Romans 11:24

"For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature (just opposite of what we normally do when we graft) into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, (the Nation of Israel) which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?"

Now listen, just stop and think. If God took that which was natural, broke it off, set it aside and grafted in an old wild olive tree, the Gentiles, and He's been letting them enjoy all the possibilities of Salvation and blessing that Israel at one time had, but when they have rejected it, and rejected it, and rejected it, then God will do the same thing with the Gentiles that He did with Israel. He will cast them aside and He will set Israel back on that root of Abraham and Israel is going to go into the kingdom enjoying the blessings.

mailmandan
Mar 27th 2013, 11:46 AM
I agree with that, but scripture says that is conditional upon having faith in Him and we must keep faith in Him until the end in order to have all sin past, present and future forgiven.

That would mean that we really have not been saved through faith until the end. In Ephesians 2:8, Paul said - For by grace you have been saved through faith.. The verb here is in the perfect tense; this means that it expresses the present results of a past action. We have been saved; therefore we are saved now. We are not still lost and on probation until we finally become saved in the end.

TheDivineWatermark
Mar 27th 2013, 11:53 AM
In regards to Romans 11:17-24, passages such as these are very difficult to explain, if 100% of these Gentiles are saved. But if God's goodness is extended to both saved and unsaved Gentiles, then these passages fit in quite nicely. Both saved and unsaved Jews shared in the goodness of God in the Old Testament. And when the Jewish people proved to be faithless, God cut them off (Romans 11:19-21). Likewise, both saved and unsaved Gentiles share in the goodness of God in the New Testament and when Gentiles prove to be faithless, God cuts them off (Romans 11:22b). In Romans 11:24, if they do not continue in unbelief will be grafted back in. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? If the Jews were the "natural branches" then this means they were all naturally in the olive tree to begin with but not all of them were saved. Right?

I agree. Well said. :thumbsup:



That would mean that we really have not been saved through faith until the end. In Ephesians 2:8, Paul said - For by grace you have been saved through faith.. The verb here is in the perfect tense; this means that it expresses the present results of a past action. We have been saved; therefore we are saved now. We are not still lost and on probation until we finally become saved in the end.

Agreed. :agree:

Raybob
Mar 28th 2013, 04:56 AM
...Do you interpret 1 John 3:9 to mean that Christians never sin again at all after becoming born of God?



1 John 4:1-6 - Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. 4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.I believe that after repentance, true renewing of the mind, that Christians never again sin as before, as in intended actions. We can get caught in a sin or desire to sin, but by the nature of the Holy Spirit inside us, we turn from it when we see we are caught up in it. Before repentance, we were sometimes guided by the spirit of error. As a Christian, we are guided by the spirit of truth inside us, not the spirit of error. We aren't saved because of our works, our works happen because we are saved.

Boo
Mar 28th 2013, 09:24 AM
But, as usual, we will disregard any verses that seem to indicate differently. We like to think that we cannot give up our salvation when we surrender to the world.

There must be a reason for that. Perhaps we know folks we care about that have gone back to a life of sin, and since they don't seem to care to once again follow Jesus, we like to think they are saved anyway?

LookingUp
Mar 28th 2013, 04:45 PM
But, as usual, we will disregard any verses that seem to indicate differently. We like to think that we cannot give up our salvation when we surrender to the world.

There must be a reason for that. Perhaps we know folks we care about that have gone back to a life of sin, and since they don't seem to care to once again follow Jesus, we like to think they are saved anyway?You can't go back to the world (i.e. willfully sin/practice sin) and be saved.

John146
Mar 28th 2013, 06:42 PM
John said we don't. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. If no one who is born of God practices sin, then how can someone who is born of God practice sin and lose their salvation? I think you're being too literal here. One who is born of God is one who is repentant of their sins and has faith and trust in Christ for salvation. If it's not possible for one who is born of God to fall away and lose their faith and their salvation then why does Paul warn born again believers about the need to walk in the Spirit rather than the flesh? Where does he give the indication that this is automatic?

Gal 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

To walk in the Spirit is something that we have to make the effort to do. We have to willingly submit to the Spirit's leading in order to walk in the Spirit. If we don't do that then we will "fulfill the lust of the flesh".

A little later, Paul wrote this:

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

This is a message Paul was given to people who were born of God. You say it's not possible for someone who is born of God to fall away and practice sin? Why would Paul warn us to "not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another" if that wasn't possible?


Is that what John said in 1 John 3:9? Some who are born of God will not remain repentant and will not continue to trust in Christ and lose their salvation?Not in that verse, but he didn't say that couldn't happen, either. Only your very literal interpretation of that verse leads you to that conclusion. Other scripture says one who is born of God can fall away.


Why is it that someone who is born of God will not practice sin? Because he pulled himself up by his bootstraps and conjured up the strength within himself not to do so or because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God? It's not all about us. Right, it's not all about us. But you're acting like it's not about us at all. Do we have no responsibility? Why do we have warnings about being careful to walk in the Spirit and about not quenching (1 Thess 5:19) and not grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) if we just automatically live righteously after we are born of God?


1 John 3:9 clearly states that "no one who is born of God practices sin" yet you say that some who are born of God fall into practicing sin. I agree with you that 1 John 3:9 can't be saying that it's impossible for someone who has been born of God to sin at all. None of us are sinless and perfect, yet I just can't see how "no one who is born of God practices sin" can mean "some who are born of God will practice sin." In Galatians 5:19-21, Paul mentions a list of sins and states that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.It's interesting that you would quote Gal 5:19-21. I think you need to read the verses that come before and after that passage and see that Paul is warning believers not to become like those he mentioned in that passage.


In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul also mentions these sins and says that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. The righteous are no longer unrighteous. Paul said such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. I'm not seeing a reversal here of being washed, sanctified and justified here. You apparently believe that free will and responsibility only applies up until someone is born again and then they no longer have free will or the responsibility to continue to be humble and have faith and trust in Christ from then on. That is where our disagreement lies. I see scripture that speaks of the importance of remaining repentant and keeping our faith until the end (of our lives or the age, whichever comes first).


There are verses in Hebrews that appear to be saying that, yet when I read those verses in context, I'm not convinced that argument is conclusive beyond the shadow of a doubt. So you at least acknowledge that they "appear to be saying that". Well, it's my view that verses like 1 John 3:9 only appear to be saying what you think they are saying.


I wasn't trying to imply that you never read them at all. Just that you need to read those verses together before reaching a verdict of loss of salvation.Again, who told you I haven't? I have. It has nothing to do with my not having studied the passage. I simply disagree with you. It happens. You have to be willing to accept that instead of thinking that I only disagree because I haven't read it yet.


7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice, 8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' (DOES THAT SOUND DESCRIPTIVE OF HEARTS THAT ARE SAVED?)I understand your point but if they were literally always astray in their hearts and literally never knew His ways, then why is it called "the rebellion"? In order to rebel you have to first know what's right and choose to do what is evil and wrong instead. If they never knew what was right then what was there for them to rebel against? It's not true that they never followed God. They did for 40 years. But the problem is that they grew weary of it and in the end turned from God and rebelled against Him. If they never had faith at any point then how in the world did they even stick with it for 40 years? Wouldn't they have given up much sooner if they never had faith?


11 So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' 12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. Jude 1:5 mentions - The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Nothing is mentioned about them previously believing and being saved. God had revealed Himself to these Israelites and chosen them as His people, but that does not mean they were ALL saved. In a very large group of professing believers, it's not hard to find unbelievers mixed in. Just because the letter of Hebrews is addressed to Hebrew Christians does not mean that "everyone" in this very large group of Hebrews must be a genuine believer.Again, I'm not saying that everyone there was saved. What I'm saying is that the message in Heb 3 was particularly intended for those who were saved, as evidenced by them being called "holy brethren". Unsaved people wouldn't be called that.


If a Pastor of a very large church addresses the congregation on Sunday morning, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ," and the message that day is for believers does that mean that everyone in that church on Sunday MUST be a genuine believer? Of course not! That is not at all what I'm saying!


Yet the word IF follows "For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ." If the word IF followed we "will become" then I would completely agree with you. It's the same in verse 6 - whose house we are, (not will become) IF we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm until the end.We have yet to keep our faith to the end, so please explain to me how to make sense of stating something as past tense regarding something that has yet to happen? I believe in order to make it so that it isn't contradictory, it's meant to be understood as saying we have become and are currently partakers of Christ but will only continue to be partakers of Christ if we "hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm until the end".


If someone is firmly rooted and established in confidence and hope then they are saved.Right. So, if that is guaranteed to be the case until the end then why does Heb 3:14 give the impression that it's conditional and not guaranteed?


I believe confidence that is not held to the end was never firmly rooted or established from the start.This is where we differ then. I believe that someone can have genuine faith and be strong in their faith at first but then after some time when it's been tested some can grow weary and their faith weakens. If they're not careful it could continue to weaken to the point of them losing their faith altogether. That's why we have the warnings in scripture about being careful to walk in the Spirit and to not quench or grieve the Holy Spirit. We don't just repent one time and believe one time and then coast to the finish line. Scripture never teaches that. Paul talked about it as being like a race to the finish in order to receive the prize. We can't just stop running (believing) and expect to get to the finish line.


I don't believe the writer of Hebrews is saying here that some "saved" people will fail to hold confidence and hope until the end and lose their salvation. I see holding fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end as proof that we really HAVE BECOME partakers of Christ. Those who fail to hold the beginning of their confidence firm unto the end demonstrate that they have NOT become partakers of Christ. What is the point of the word "if" in that verse then? It strongly gives the impression that it's conditional upon keeping our confidence firm until the end. If that's conditional then it's not automatic.


HAVE BECOME is not speaking of the end, but the past with present results.Right. But it doesn't end with present results. We must continue to keep our confidence firm until the end and I don't believe that is automatic. Otherwise, the warnings given to believers in scripture are just empty threats that we don't need to concern ourselves with.


The writer of Hebrews clearly did not say "will become" and he did not say "full" partakers of Christ.He did speak of the need to do something until the end, though. Please address that. If that's automatic then please show where scripture teaches that.


If our salvation is not guaranteed, then why did Paul say in Ephesians 1:13-14 - "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." In 2 Corinthians 1:22 we read - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. And in 2 Corinthians 5:5 we read - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.Dan, statements like these are always conditional upon us being repentant and having our faith and trust in Jesus Christ. None of these say that losing our faith isn't possible. It doesn't say the seal can't be broken. Look at this message that Paul gives to those who are saved:

Eph 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

If it wasn't possible for us to "give place to the devil" then why does Paul warn us about being careful not to do that? If it wasn't possible for us to grieve the Holy Spirit then why does Paul tell us not to do that? If it wasn't possible for us to engage in "bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking" then why did Paul need to tell believers not to do those things? Free will doesn't end upon being born of God. We are still responsible to continue submitting ourselves to Christ while being repentant of our sins.


In regards to Romans 11:17-24, passages such as these are very difficult to explain, if 100% of these Gentiles are saved. But if God's goodness is extended to both saved and unsaved Gentiles, then these passages fit in quite nicely.Are you suggesting that Paul was saying that even unsaved Gentiles were grafted in to the olive tree? If so that cannot be the case. Please read it again. It clearly indicates that a condition of remaining in the olive tree (in the case of the Israelite believers) or being grafted in is faith. Unsaved Gentiles don't have faith so they are not grafted in. A lack of faith results in being cut off (verses 20 and 23).


Both saved and unsaved Jews shared in the goodness of God in the Old Testament. And when the Jewish people proved to be faithless, God cut them off (Romans 11:19-21). Likewise, both saved and unsaved Gentiles share in the goodness of God in the New Testament and when Gentiles prove to be faithless, God cuts them off (Romans 11:22b).I disagree. A Gentile had to have faith in order to be grafted into the olive tree in the first place.

Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Please read this carefully. Paul is speaking here to Gentiles who "stand by faith". He is telling those Gentiles who "stand by faith" that since God didn't spare the natural branches (Israelite unbelievers) then He may not spare them, either. Again, this is a message Paul was giving to those Gentiles who "stand by faith". He clearly was warning Gentile believers that if they were not careful about becoming haughty and keeping their faith then they too would "be cut off".


In Romans 11:24, if they do not continue in unbelief will be grafted back in. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? If the Jews were the "natural branches" then this means they were all naturally in the olive tree to begin with but not all of them were saved. Right? Does the olive tree simply represent "salvation" or is there more to this?Yes, it represents salvation since the only ones in it are those with faith, right? Is that not true of the church as well? See, the kingdom of God was first given to Israel by default, if you will, on the condition that they would remain in it if they had faith. But look at what Jesus said to those Israelites who did not have faith in Him:

Matt 21:42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.” 45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.

See how Jesus said the kingdom of God would be taken from the chief priests and Pharisees? Paul said regarding his fellow countrymen, the Israelites that it was them "to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises" (Rom 9:4). But people like the chief priests and Pharisees forfeited all of that with their unbelief. So, it was all taken from them and given to Gentile believers (with Israelite believers remaining in the kingdom of God - together they were made one).


I was listening to a broadcast of Through the Bible with Les Feldick the other day that discussed these verses. Here was his take on these passages of Scripture from a dispensational point of view:I'm not a dispensationalist so I have no interest in this. Sorry. All I'll say is that I'm sure I would disagree with pretty much everything he says since I completely disagree with that point of view. Also, I'm talking to you, not him. I could respond to what he said, but he can't respond to me. No, thanks.

John146
Mar 28th 2013, 06:50 PM
You can't go back to the world (i.e. willfully sin/practice sin) and be saved.No one is saying otherwise. Anyone who is of the world rather than of God is not saved. The question is, can we who are saved go back to the world? Scripture says yes, IMO.

2 Peter 3:17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

LookingUp
Mar 28th 2013, 08:05 PM
No one is saying otherwise. Anyone who is of the world rather than of God is not saved. The question is, can we who are saved go back to the world? Scripture says yes, IMO.

2 Peter 3:17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.I was responding to Boo who said some believe that those who “surrender to the world” and “go back to a life of sin” are “saved anyway.” I think a minority would think “they’re saved anyway.” The majority thinks that either they’re genuine believers who have chosen to no longer believe or they’re insincere believers (i.e. like demons believe) who have chosen to openly make known their lack of faith.

The “steadfastness” of 2 Peter 3:17 is sureness of the teachings previously taught by Peter and Paul. False teachers distort the Scriptures (vs. 16) and Peter is telling them to grow in the knowledge of the Lord (vs. 18).

Ephesians 1:13-14
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Cor. 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

John146
Mar 28th 2013, 08:54 PM
The “steadfastness” of 2 Peter 3:17 is sureness of the teachings previously taught by Peter and Paul. False teachers distort the Scriptures (vs. 16) and Peter is telling them to grow in the knowledge of the Lord (vs. 18).What about the part where Peter tells believers to "beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked"? What is your understanding of that?


Ephesians 1:13-14
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Cor. 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.And what is your understanding of these passages exactly? There must have been a point you were intending to make by quoting them. How do they line up with this:

Eph 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit on the condition that we remain faithful rather than giving "place to the devil" and grieving the Holy Spirit with "bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking".

LookingUp
Mar 28th 2013, 09:05 PM
What about the part where Peter tells believers to "beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked"? What is your understanding of that?Currently, they are sure (steadfast) in the doctrines they have been taught. False teachers are coming in and trying to confuse them. Paul is telling them to beware of these false teachers with their false doctrines, because if they do not beware, they could begin to doubt the doctrines they were previously taught.


And what is your understanding of these passages exactly? There must have been a point you were intending to make by quoting them.My understanding of a seal is that it’s permanent.


We are sealed with the Holy Spirit on the condition that we remain faithfulIt is true that only the faithful are sealed. But even the faithful can falter at times.


rather than giving "place to the devil" and grieving the Holy Spirit with "bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking".We can give place to the devil (didn't Peter?) and grieve the Holy Spirit and still be sealed. But if we find ourselves practicing these things, we were never sealed in the first place.

RabbiKnife
Mar 28th 2013, 09:12 PM
Seals are not permanent.

Seals simply denote ownership.

Seals can be broken, but once broken, that seal cannot be reformed.

John146
Mar 28th 2013, 09:21 PM
Currently, they are sure (steadfast) in the doctrines they have been taught. False teachers are coming in and trying to confuse them. Paul is telling them to beware of these false teachers with their false doctrines, because if they do not beware, they could begin to doubt the doctrines they were previously taught. What would be the result of them falling from their "own steadfastness"? Is that nothing to really worry about or is he warning them about falling away from the faith and being caught up in "the error of the wicked" rather than embracing the truth any longer?


My understanding of a seal is that it’s permanent.And where does that come from? My sandwich bag had a seal and I easily broke/unsealed it. I'm not saying seals are always easily broken like that, but I am saying they can be broken.


It is true that only the faithful are sealed. But even the faithful can falter at times.If there's no concern with losing our salvation then why should we concern ourselves with what Peter was saying in 2 Peter 3:17? What would be the consequences of "being led away with the error of the wicked", if any, in your understanding?


We can give place to the devil (didn't Peter?) and grieve the Holy Spirit and still be sealed. But if we find ourselves practicing these things, we were never sealed in the first place.Where are you getting this from, though? In Eph 4:25-32 Paul warns sealed believers about being careful not to get caught up in things like "bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking". I don't know how you could read that and conclude that if one finds themselves practicing those things then they were never sealed in the first place since it's a message given to those who were sealed.

LookingUp
Mar 28th 2013, 09:26 PM
Seals are not permanent.

Seals simply denote ownership.

Seals can be broken, but once broken, that seal cannot be reformed.Who can break the seal of the Holy Spirit?

LookingUp
Mar 28th 2013, 09:44 PM
What would be the result of them falling from their "own steadfastness"?It depends on which doctrines they begin to doubt.


Is that nothing to really worry about or is he warning them about falling away from the faith and being caught up in "the error of the wicked" rather than embracing the truth any longer?It doesn’t say they fall away from the faith. It says they fall away from their steadfastness. And since the context is doctrine or teachings, it’s the "sureness" of the truth of previously taught doctrines that they are in danger of falling away from. We see Christians today do that all the time. But, thankfully, we aren’t saved by our G.P.A. in various doctrines. Nevertheless, falling away from correct doctrine can be very damaging in all kinds of ways. For the “sealed,” it means a loss of blessings now and at judgment.


And where does that come from? My sandwich bag had a seal and I easily broke/unsealed it. I'm not saying seals are always easily broken like that, but I am saying they can be broken.And who has the power to break the seal of the Holy Spirit? It’s God’s pledge we’re talking about. That’s the seal that is permanent, in my understanding.


If there's no concern with losing our salvation then why should we concern ourselves with what Peter was saying in 2 Peter 3:17?Really? I’m surprised to hear you say that. Do we obey God just so we can maintain our salvation?


What would be the consequences of "being led away with the error of the wicked", if any, in your understanding?We already spoke of this previously when speaking about the judgment. We all will give an account for every careless word we speak and for the good AND bad we’ve done in this lifetime. I don’t know what the consequences look like, because we’re not given the specifics.


… it's a message given to those who were sealed.Yes, but those who are sealed do not “practice” those things. They can falter and become bitter, angry, and even evil speaking, but those who are saved will not stay in this frame of mind.

Vakeros
Mar 29th 2013, 09:43 AM
Are those in Christ still under the law that says, “You sin, you die” (Romans 6:23)?
Paul says (from Romans 7 & 8):
For the wages of sin is death. Do you know that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? You were made to die to the law through Christ. We have been released from the law. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those in Christ. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
It is said we are forgiven of our sins when we repent and put our faith in Christ Jesus. We are baptized into the body of Christ. We are taken from being under the law (which condemns us to death because we have sinned) and put under Christ. Once under Christ, baptized into the body of Christ and “in Christ,” can our future sin condemn us to death (this is not in referring to being in a constant state of rebellion that leads us to continually practice sin)?
You have answered your own question on one level - Those in Christ aren't under the law.
However can someone who is in Christ put themselves under the law?
And separately, what place sin, for can you sin if you are no longer under the law?
To answer the second point first, we are no longer under the law IF we are in Christ. Therefore as long as we are in Christ we cannot / will not sin. This leads to a further question though which goes back to my first. What does it mean to be in Christ?
For me it isn't about saying the sinner's prayer. This is but entering into the narrow gate. Jesus tells us to enter the narrow gate AND go along the narrow way. This narrow way, is the way of faith. This for me is what it means to be in Christ, to abide in the Vine. Whenever we aren't living by faith and aren't abiding in the Vine, then we have left the narrow way. Fortunately for us once we are in the Vine He has hold of us and won't let us go. But we can leave Him.
Heb 6:6 tell us that if we become apostate, that is reject God, then while we remain in this state there is no repentance. This I believe is why Jesus commanded the disciples to go and make disciples (Matt 28:19) Not just preach the gospel. Jesus says we must count the cost. DO we make it hard for people to receive Jesus by telling them about the cost? Or do we make it easy by telling them about God's love? Now, I don't believe that if you are apostate you can't return to God, but you must leave your apostasy first - IOW whilst in that place of rejecting God you aren't saved. You have actually according to Jesus in John 3:18 been condemned already. This is what Heb 6:6 I understand to be talking about, no longer believing in Jesus. A total rejection of Him after having tasted of His goodness. This isn't the same as having doubts or struggling with why God let things happen. This isn't even a turning your back on Jesus or telling Him you hate Him, for in these instances you are still acknowledging Him as being real. It isn't even when you deny Him because you wish He wasn't true. It is when you deny Him believeing that He isn't - saying the I AM is the I ISN'T in your heart. This is a complete rejection and not just a struggle.
So for me, when we put ourselves into His hands we are in the safest place, but must then continue in Him. Just as our faith starts with Him, so it ends with Him, the author and perfecter of our faith.

Now separate to this can we place ourselves under the law? I will have to return to this later...

grams
Mar 29th 2013, 10:21 AM
Romans
11-11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Boo
Mar 29th 2013, 11:49 AM
Who can break the seal of the Holy Spirit?

Nobody but the person who was sealed. No man can snatch you from the Father's hand, scripture claims. However, scripture does NOT CLAIM that you cannot choose to break the seal yourself. Rather, Paul says that you can. He says that it will be very tough on you if you do.

RabbiKnife
Mar 29th 2013, 01:09 PM
Who can break the seal of the Holy Spirit?

I can.........................

Vakeros
Mar 29th 2013, 05:36 PM
I can.........................
I agree with you! In fact I would say, ONLY I can. Just as ONLY you can for you.

Vakeros
Mar 29th 2013, 05:42 PM
Nobody but the person who was sealed. No man can snatch you from the Father's hand, scripture claims. However, scripture does NOT CLAIM that you cannot choose to break the seal yourself. Rather, Paul says that you can. He says that it will be very tough on you if you do.
Agreed! Heb 6 tells us this as does 2 Tim 2:11-13 though we may be faithless, yet He is faithful, but if we deny Him, He will also deny us. Matt 10:33, Titus 1:16

percho
Mar 29th 2013, 06:00 PM
My thoughts.

Why did Jesus use the term born anew relative to the concept of the kingdom of God, the gospel, which was the word God sent by Jesus Christ to the children of Israel beginning in Galilee after the baptism which John preached. Why the term born anew, to be generated again.

My concept of this gospel of the kingdom is that of the parable spoken of by Jesus beginning at Luke 19:11. I do not think or believe Jesus has returned yet to established the kingdom of God he receives from God the Father, to be ruled by he and his called.

Therefore what is the concept of generated anew? Nicodemus, for sure related it to entering again into the womb of his mother. At least ole Nicky understood the concept of being conceived and brought forth. I also believe that is why Jesus used the term he did, for it carries the concept of conception through to being brought forth with the risk of miscarriage and prevalent in today's world abortion.

Jesus is said to be the firstborn from the dead. Not first resurrected, there were some before him and some after him resurrected from the dead. But the firstborn. The Son of Man who had died and was born again from the dead as a new creation of Adam. Buried as the first Adam resurrected the last Adam, a new man spiritual. Because of this we can be given the Holy Spirit of God conceiving us as sons of God not yet brought forth which we call being born.

Keeping in mind my concept of the kingdom of God, above, can one be born into what isn't here yet? Can one be conceived, awaiting birth at the appearing of the kingdom, see 2 Tim. 4:1 Luke 20:35,36.

Where does this leave miscarriage relative to being brought forth? What about abortion?

According to above; Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; brought forth, born again) for we shall see him as he is. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:2,9

Would that add logic to the word of God?

What about miscarriage and or abortion?

Aijalon
Apr 12th 2013, 02:12 AM
I voted Yes. Yes to the fact that physical death is a certainty. This was not a law in the law of the Jews, but to all mankind in the curse of Genesis 3. We have sinned, and our flesh WILL die. Even if we live to the return of Christ, I believe he will destroy our imperfect flesh, killing our body, only to remake it in resurrection.
It might be said though, that in the second death we will not die, because the second death will have no power over us.

So this is a trick quesiton, I hope I did well!

Rats! I should have known the answer was C!

mailmandan
Apr 17th 2013, 02:23 PM
I think you're being too literal here. One who is born of God is one who is repentant of their sins and has faith and trust in Christ for salvation. If it's not possible for one who is born of God to fall away and lose their faith and their salvation then why does Paul warn born again believers about the need to walk in the Spirit rather than the flesh? Where does he give the indication that this is automatic?

Sorry for the delayed response but I've had computer problems, a death in my family and I've been out of town. To interpret 1 John 3:9 to mean that no one who is born of God ever sins at all would be too literal. There is a difference between "practice" sin and never sin at all. How can 1 John 3:9 possibly mean, "someone who is born of God can practice sin, regardless that His seed abides in him; he can sin, even though he is born of God? That would be the opposite of what John said. In a previous discussion about the eternal security of the believer with glad4mercy (who believes a Christian can lose their salvation) I asked him the question, "So how can we practice sin and lose our salvation if we are born of God and cannot practice sin?" He admitted - "This is a good question. I think this is a linchpin verse for this discussion." I'm not seeing a warning from Paul here that either we walk in the Spirit 100% of the time or else we will lose our salvation. I don't see the words "lose salvation" anywhere in the Bible. How many born again believers live sinless perfect lives and never mess up at all? Do all believers walk in the Spirit 100% of the time? Do all believers never fulfill the lust of the flesh? I understand that walking in the Spirit is not automatic. At least we absolutely agree that one who is born of God is one who is repentant of their sins and has faith and trust in Christ for salvation. As brother in Christ, we can rejoice in that! :pp


Gal 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. To walk in the Spirit is something that we have to make the effort to do. We have to willingly submit to the Spirit's leading in order to walk in the Spirit. If we don't do that then we will "fulfill the lust of the flesh".

Sure we make an effort to walk in the Spirit, yet how many believers perfectly walk in the Spirit and never sin at all? Whenever we mess up and sin, are we fulfilling the lust of the flesh or walking in the Spirit? Do born again believers never have weak momemts and fulfill the lust of the flesh? Does this mean we lose our salvation everytime we mess up?


A little later, Paul wrote this:

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

This is a message Paul was given to people who were born of God. You say it's not possible for someone who is born of God to fall away and practice sin? Why would Paul warn us to "not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another" if that wasn't possible?

John said that it's not possible for someone who is born of God to "practice" sin (1 John 3:9). Of course it's possible for believers to be conceited, provoke one another and envy one another at times, but does this mean that this behavior will be a continuous willful habitual lifestyle (practice sin) for someone who is born of God? No remorse, no conviction, no repentance just bring it on continuously? I say NO according to John.


Not in that verse, but he didn't say that couldn't happen, either. Only your very literal interpretation of that verse leads you to that conclusion. Other scripture says one who is born of God can fall away.

How can "no one who is born of God practices sin" possibly mean it could happen? So I'm not supposed to interpret the words of John "no one who is born of God practices sin" literally and believe he meant the opposite of what he said? What verse in the Bible says someone who is born of God can fall away and "lose their salvation?" In Matthew 26:31, Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I
will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.' Did all of the disciples "lose their salvation" here? Since you believe that "other" Scripture says one who is born of God can fall away "and lose their salvation," you are forced to reinterpret 1 John 3:9 to fit that position. Show me the words LOST SALVATION in Scripture and I will believe you.


Right, it's not all about us. But you're acting like it's not about us at all. Do we have no responsibility? Why do we have warnings about being careful to walk in the Spirit and about not quenching (1 Thess 5:19) and not grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) if we just automatically live righteously after we are born of God?

I don't mean to act like it's not about us at all, but ultimately, apart from Christ we can do nothing. Sure we have a responsibility. We don't just automatically live righteously after we are born of God, yet we have been changed and this change does not simply amount to nothing and neither does God's power to keep and preserve us. Where are the words "lose salvation" mentioned with quenching and grieving the Holy Spirit? Who of us has not sometimes grieved the Holy Spirit? Notice in Ephesians 4:30 that Paul said - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption. In Ephesians 1:13-14, Paul said that believers are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. Why would Paul make such a statement if we were only temporarily sealed and God's guarantee is no good?

So why wouldn't we be told to walk in the Spirit? This is what we are to strive to do as Christians. I'm not seeing a warning that if you ever mess up at all you lose your salvation. Was the Holy Spirit grieved when Peter denied Christ three times or when he was not being straightforward about the truth of the gospel in Galatians 2:11-15? Those who are born of God can certainly have weak moments and mess up (as Peter did), but does that mean we lose our salvation? Did Peter lose his salvation?


It's interesting that you would quote Gal 5:19-21. I think you need to read the verses that come before and after that passage and see that Paul is warning believers not to become like those he mentioned in that passage.

I'm not seeing a warning here to the righteous to not practice sin and "lose their salvation." In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul mentions that the UNRIGHTEOUS (not the righteous) will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul said to believers - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. Where did Paul say that such were some of you saved but now you "lost your salvation?"


You apparently believe that free will and responsibility only applies up until someone is born again and then they no longer have free will or the responsibility to continue to be humble and have faith and trust in Christ from then on. That is where our disagreement lies. I see scripture that speaks of the importance of remaining repentant and keeping our faith until the end (of our lives or the age, whichever comes first).

I believe that believers still have free will and responsibility, but I don't see the words "because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" as not amounting to a hill of beans. The change in us is real and God's power to preserve His saints and keep us strong to the end is real. I don't see salvation as probation or eternal life as temporary life. If salvation is all about us pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps and keeping ourselves saved, then Jesus only initially saves us then we do the rest. That doesn't fit - saved by grace through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. If it wasn't for the Lord, we would never come to believe in the first place or continue to believe. I believe that certain people can have a superficial temporary non saving faith that has no root and does not endure, which can get confused with genuine saving faith that is rooted in Christ. We do not infallibly know everyone's heart who professes to be a believer.


I understand your point but if they were literally always astray in their hearts and literally never knew His ways, then why is it called "the rebellion"? In order to rebel you have to first know what's right and choose to do what is evil and wrong instead. If they never knew what was right then what was there for them to rebel against? It's not true that they never followed God. They did for 40 years. But the problem is that they grew weary of it and in the end turned from God and rebelled against Him. If they never had faith at any point then how in the world did they even stick with it for 40 years? Wouldn't they have given up much sooner if they never had faith?

Can we know "about" His ways yet never truly KNOW His ways? Can we know "about" Jesus yet never truly KNOW Him? (Matthew 7:22-23). God said - 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways' yet you are trying to say that's not what He really meant. Don't want to be too literal? They had enough faith to get them out of Egypt (sure they wanted to escape slavery) but not enough faith to get them into the promised land. Does this mean that out of ALL the Israelites who left Egypt with Moses, only Joshua and Caleb made it to heaven? Moses wasn't allowed to enter into the promised land, but we know that he is in heaven.


Again, I'm not saying that everyone there was saved. What I'm saying is that the message in Heb 3 was particularly intended for those who were saved, as evidenced by them being called "holy brethren". Unsaved people wouldn't be called that.

Yet unsaved people may be mixed in with the group and the writer of Hebrews does not infallibly know who they are. Just because a large group of people are being addressed as brethren does not mean that everyone in the group must be a genuine believer.


We have yet to keep our faith to the end, so please explain to me how to make sense of stating something as past tense regarding something that has yet to happen? I believe in order to make it so that it isn't contradictory, it's meant to be understood as saying we have become and are currently partakers of Christ but will only continue to be partakers of Christ if we "hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm until the end".

How do WE keep our faith? What strength is in US to accomplish this? Did we conjure up faith in our flesh to begin with apart from God drawing and enabling us? What power keeps us? If Hebrews 3:14 simply said, "for we will become (or will remain) partakers of Christ if we continue.." then it would be settled. BUT the writer said, "for we have become partakers of Christ" (evidence) if we continue.. That is not a contradiction. It's only natural that NT writers would speak this way, for they are addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to know the actual state of every person's heart. How can the writer of Hebrews avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? The demonstrative evidence of genuine saving faith that is firmly rooted and established is endurance.


Right. So, if that is guaranteed to be the case until the end then why does Heb 3:14 give the impression that it's conditional and not guaranteed?

It may give this impression if you change "have become" into "will become."


This is where we differ then. I believe that someone can have genuine faith and be strong in their faith at first but then after some time when it's been tested some can grow weary and their faith weakens. If they're not careful it could continue to weaken to the point of them losing their faith altogether. That's why we have the warnings in scripture about being careful to walk in the Spirit and to not quench or grieve the Holy Spirit. We don't just repent one time and believe one time and then coast to the finish line. Scripture never teaches that. Paul talked about it as being like a race to the finish in order to receive the prize. We can't just stop running (believing) and expect to get to the finish line.

I believe that our faith can become weak at times, but completely vanish? Would God allow that to happen? Why would He waste His time with us if that were going to happen? I don't equate grieve the Holy Spirit to losing salvation. Not every warning in Scripture has a death sentence. I don't see the race as coasting to the finish line, but I don't see salvation as an Olympic event in which only the runner who receives the gold medal makes it to heaven and everyone else is disqualified from the race and goes to hell. Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it (1 Corinthians 9:24). Is salvation a prize that we must compete for to win? How is that a free gift received through faith? Is salvation a gift or a prize? A gift is something we freely accept. A prize is something you work for and earn. If someone stops running then what does that say about their faith? Not truly rooted and established from the start.


What is the point of the word "if" in that verse then? It strongly gives the impression that it's conditional upon keeping our confidence firm until the end. If that's conditional then it's not automatic.

You could see it that way or you could understand "if" to mean that keeping our confidence firm until the end is proof of genuine conversion.


Right. But it doesn't end with present results. We must continue to keep our confidence firm until the end and I don't believe that is automatic. Otherwise, the warnings given to believers in scripture are just empty threats that we don't need to concern ourselves with.

The ability to hold firm to the end, to continue in the faith, etc. is not humanly derived. We are empowered by Christ who lives in us to do these things. The source is not ourselves. We need to concern ourselves with these threats if our faith is not firmly rooted or established from the start and does not continue. He will confirm/keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1:8). What does that say about our faith if it does not endure?


He did speak of the need to do something until the end, though. Please address that. If that's automatic then please show where scripture teaches that.

Needing to do it in order to become partakers of Christ or needing to do it in order to demonstrate that we have become partakers of Christ? Endurance does not come through the flesh, but through the power of God. Is our faith rooted in Him in order to receive this power? If God promised to preserve His saints forever (Psalm 37:28) and keep us strong to the end (1 Corinthians 1:8) and seal us with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30) then how is this all about US doing something to the end? Do we endure in our own strength?


Dan, statements like these are always conditional upon us being repentant and having our faith and trust in Jesus Christ. None of these say that losing our faith isn't possible. It doesn't say the seal can't be broken. Look at this message that Paul gives to those who are saved:

Eph 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

We must repent and have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Once we do, are we kept by our own power or by the power of God? Where does the Bible say "lose saving faith, lose salvation?" Where does the Bible say that we can become UN-sealed by the Holy Spirit? I already addressed Ephesians 4:25-31. I see no loss of salvation mentioned in those verses.


If it wasn't possible for us to "give place to the devil" then why does Paul warn us about being careful not to do that? If it wasn't possible for us to grieve the Holy Spirit then why does Paul tell us not to do that? If it wasn't possible for us to engage in "bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking" then why did Paul need to tell believers not to do those things? Free will doesn't end upon being born of God. We are still responsible to continue submitting ourselves to Christ while being repentant of our sins.

Whenever we sin are we giving place to the devil? Do we never sin? I never said that it wasn't possible for those who are born of God to grieve the Holy Spirit or engage in bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking. It happens - For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. (Galatians 5:17) We are not sinless and perfect. I just don't see where you come up with "lose your salvation" in these verses. If our salvation is performance based then we are all in trouble. We all fall short of God's perfect standard. In Romans 7:24-25, Paul said - O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


Please read this carefully. Paul is speaking here to Gentiles who "stand by faith". He is telling those Gentiles who "stand by faith" that since God didn't spare the natural branches (Israelite unbelievers) then He may not spare them, either. Again, this is a message Paul was giving to those Gentiles who "stand by faith". He clearly was warning Gentile believers that if they were not careful about becoming haughty and keeping their faith then they too would "be cut off".

I guess that you and I will have to agree to disagree on this. You see this as individuals losing their salvation and in some cases regaining it back (Romans 11:23) "graft them in again." I believe the Apostle Paul here is speaking about Jews and Gentiles in corporate, not individual, terms. Verse 22 is saying "Just as Israel fell from the place of God's goodness, the same thing could happen to you Gentiles". For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved.


I'm not a dispensationalist so I have no interest in this. Sorry. All I'll say is that I'm sure I would disagree with pretty much everything he says since I completely disagree with that point of view. Also, I'm talking to you, not him. I could respond to what he said, but he can't respond to me. No, thanks.

It sounds like you are very satisfied with what you already believe and don't even want to consider anything that opposes your view. That seems to be the case with many people.


Matt 21:42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.” 45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.

See how Jesus said the kingdom of God would be taken from the chief priests and Pharisees? Paul said regarding his fellow countrymen, the Israelites that it was them "to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises" (Rom 9:4). But people like the chief priests and Pharisees forfeited all of that with their unbelief. So, it was all taken from them and given to Gentile believers (with Israelite believers remaining in the kingdom of God - together they were made one).

The chief priests and Pharisees were not believers and were cut off. If God took that which was natural, broke it off, set it aside and grafted in an old wild olive tree, the Gentiles, and He's been letting them enjoy all the possibilities of salvation and blessing that Israel at one time had, but when they have rejected it, and rejected it, and rejected it, then God will do the same thing with the Gentiles that He did with Israel.

John146
Apr 17th 2013, 07:08 PM
Sorry for the delayed response but I've had computer problems, a death in my family and I've been out of town. To interpret 1 John 3:9 to mean that no one who is born of God ever sins at all would be too literal. There is a difference between "practice" sin and never sin at all. How can 1 John 3:9 possibly mean, "someone who is born of God can practice sin, regardless that His seed abides in him; he can sin, even though he is born of God? That would be the opposite of what John said. In a previous discussion about the eternal security of the believer with glad4mercy (who believes a Christian can lose their salvation) I asked him the question, "So how can we practice sin and lose our salvation if we are born of God and cannot practice sin?" He admitted - "This is a good question. I think this is a linchpin verse for this discussion." I'm not seeing a warning from Paul here that either we walk in the Spirit 100% of the time or else we will lose our salvation. I don't see the words "lose salvation" anywhere in the Bible. How many born again believers live sinless perfect lives and never mess up at all? Do all believers walk in the Spirit 100% of the time? Do all believers never fulfill the lust of the flesh? I understand that walking in the Spirit is not automatic. At least we absolutely agree that one who is born of God is one who is repentant of their sins and has faith and trust in Christ for salvation. As brother in Christ, we can rejoice in that! :ppWhere in the world did you get the idea that I'm saying we have to be sinless in order to maintain our salvation? I never said anything to indicate such a thing.


Sure we make an effort to walk in the Spirit, yet how many believers perfectly walk in the Spirit and never sin at all? Whenever we mess up and sin, are we fulfilling the lust of the flesh or walking in the Spirit? Do born again believers never have weak momemts and fulfill the lust of the flesh? Does this mean we lose our salvation everytime we mess up? Again, where did you get the idea that I was saying we have to walk in the Spirit perfectly at all times in order to maintain our salvation? I never said that. You're arguing with a straw man.


John said that it's not possible for someone who is born of God to "practice" sin (1 John 3:9). Of course it's possible for believers to be conceited, provoke one another and envy one another at times, but does this mean that this behavior will be a continuous willful habitual lifestyle (practice sin) for someone who is born of God? No remorse, no conviction, no repentance just bring it on continuously? I say NO according to John. I say it can happen according to several other scriptures. Otherwise, the warnings in scripture about falling away are nothing more than empty threats.


How can "no one who is born of God practices sin" possibly mean it could happen? So I'm not supposed to interpret the words of John "no one who is born of God practices sin" literally and believe he meant the opposite of what he said?You have to take other scripture into consideration when interpreting any given verse. There is other scripture that warns believers about falling away. What do you do with those? You try to say that they aren't warnings given to believers. I disagree. In Matt 24:5 Jesus warns believers not to be deceived by someone else claiming to be the Christ. But you think believers can't be deceived into believing someone else besides Jesus is the Christ.. In Heb 3:12-14 believers are warned about the need to keep their hope firm until the end or else they could depart from the living God. But you think believers can't depart from God. And so on. You can't understand how I can interpret 1 John 3:9 the way I do, but I can't understand how you interpret other verses the way you do. Oh, well.


What verse in the Bible says someone who is born of God can fall away and "lose their salvation?"If you're looking for a verse that uses those exact words, I suppose I can't give that to you. But I have already shown several passages that I believe indicate that it is possible. If you disagree that those verses teach that, then so be it. We'll just have to agree to disagree.


In Matthew 26:31, Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I
will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.' Did all of the disciples "lose their salvation" here?That is translated from a different Greek word than in verses like Heb 6:6 or 2 Thess 2:3. That word doesn't have anything to do with falling away from the faith.


Since you believe that "other" Scripture says one who is born of God can fall away "and lose their salvation," you are forced to reinterpret 1 John 3:9 to fit that position.Since you believe that 1 John 3:9 says one who is born of God can't fall away you are forced to reinterpret several other scriptures to fit that position.


Show me the words LOST SALVATION in Scripture and I will believe you. That is nonsense. That's like someone telling me that they don't believe there there will be a rapture since the word rapture isn't found in scripture. Come on. Are you really resorting to this type of argument?


I don't mean to act like it's not about us at all, but ultimately, apart from Christ we can do nothing. Sure we have a responsibility. We don't just automatically live righteously after we are born of God, yet we have been changed and this change does not simply amount to nothing and neither does God's power to keep and preserve us. Where are the words "lose salvation" mentioned with quenching and grieving the Holy Spirit? Who of us has not sometimes grieved the Holy Spirit? Notice in Ephesians 4:30 that Paul said - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption. In Ephesians 1:13-14, Paul said that believers are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. Why would Paul make such a statement if we were only temporarily sealed and God's guarantee is no good? The guarantee is conditional upon us keeping our hope and trust in Him until the end. When it says we can do nothing apart from Christ you have to be careful about taking that too literally. What that means is we can't do the things God has for us to do without the aid of the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't include us submitting to the Holy Spirit and putting our trust in Christ. God doesn't do those things for us. We are responsible to willingly submit to Him and put our hope and trust in Him and we have to continue to do that "until the end".


So why wouldn't we be told to walk in the Spirit? This is what we are to strive to do as Christians. I'm not seeing a warning that if you ever mess up at all you lose your salvation. Was the Holy Spirit grieved when Peter denied Christ three times or when he was not being straightforward about the truth of the gospel in Galatians 2:11-15? Those who are born of God can certainly have weak moments and mess up (as Peter did), but does that mean we lose our salvation? Did Peter lose his salvation?Peter was sorry for what he did and repented of it. Did God force Peter to repent? No. That was his choice. What I'm trying to tell you is that it's possible for someone to go astray like that and continue to go astray rather than repent. But you disagree. Yet I see warnings in scripture given to believers about being careful not to fall away. Somehow you think those aren't being given to believers. I have yet to see you give a strong argument showing that they are warnings given to unbelievers. Such as in Heb 3:12-14.


I'm not seeing a warning here to the righteous to not practice sin and "lose their salvation."See, that's the problem. In order to be convinced that someone who is born of God can fall away and lose their salvation you require there to be a verse that says exactly that in those words. That isn't reasonable. That would be like me expecting you to show me a verse that says "one who is born of God cannot lose their salvation". But you can't do that. Do you think it would be reasonable for me to conclude that since you can't come up with such a verse then that means you must be wrong? Of course not, right?


I believe that believers still have free will and responsibility, but I don't see the words "because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" as not amounting to a hill of beans. The change in us is real and God's power to preserve His saints and keep us strong to the end is real. I don't see salvation as probation or eternal life as temporary life. If salvation is all about us pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps and keeping ourselves saved, then Jesus only initially saves us then we do the rest.That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that what we are required to do to be saved in the first place is what we are required to continue doing in order to remain saved. That's what I see being taught in passages like Heb 3:12-14. I'm not saying we can earn our salvation in the first place by doing good works and I'm not saying we have to do good works to maintain our salvation. I don't think you've been reading what I've been saying carefully enough because that is apparently what you think I believe, but it's not.


That doesn't fit - saved by grace through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. If it wasn't for the Lord, we would never come to believe in the first place or continue to believe.I don't know what you mean here. Salvation is by grace, salvation is through our faith in Christ (Gal 3:26, John 3:16, Rom 10:9-10, etc.), salvation is not of ourselves (of our works) and salvation is the gift of God. In no way, shape or form does Eph 2:8 teach that God does everything and nothing is required of us in order to be saved.


Yet unsaved people may be mixed in with the group and the writer of Hebrews does not infallibly know who they are. Just because a large group of people are being addressed as brethren does not mean that everyone in the group must be a genuine believer. As I have pointed out to you several times now, he was specifically addressing saved people. That unsaved people might have been mixed in with them is irrelevant. He wasn't intending to address them so whether they read his letter or not doesn't make any difference when it comes to who the message was intended to address.


How do WE keep our faith? What strength is in US to accomplish this? Did we conjure up faith in our flesh to begin with apart from God drawing and enabling us?When did I say faith comes from our flesh? I didn't. It comes from the heart (Romans 10:9-10). We have hearts and minds. We have the ability to reason and make choices. We are not puppets. Scripture does not teach that God believes for us. It repeatedly teaches that faith is something we do. So, why do you believe that it's something God does for us?


I believe that our faith can become weak at times, but completely vanish? Would God allow that to happen?You said earlier you believe we have free will. Do you really believe that or not? Why would He not allow it if it's His desire for us to follow Him willingly?


Why would He waste His time with us if that were going to happen?What kind of question is this? If I'm not mistaken you believe that God desires for all people to be saved, right? If so, do you consider it a waste of time when God calls someone to repentance and they never do?


I don't equate grieve the Holy Spirit to losing salvation. Not every warning in Scripture has a death sentence. I don't see the race as coasting to the finish line, but I don't see salvation as an Olympic event in which only the runner who receives the gold medal makes it to heaven and everyone else is disqualified from the race and goes to hell. Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize?Here you go being hyper-literal again. Obviously, Paul is speaking figuratively. He is talking about a race that has more than one winner, obviously. We should run as if only one can receive the prize but that doesn't mean there's literally only one who receives the prize. That is what Paul was saying in 1 Cor 9:24.


Run in such a way that you may obtain it (1 Corinthians 9:24). Is salvation a prize that we must compete for to win?Paul isn't talking about competing with others for the prize. He makes no such allusion. We have to be careful how literally to take things like that. He's not saying that only one person can win the prize nor is he saying we are competing with everyone else for the prize. You know that, don't you? What do you think the prize represents if not salvation? Notice in 1 Cor 9:25 that Paul refers to the prize as "an imperishable crown". Seems like a reference to eternal life to me.


How is that a free gift received through faith?That's how we run the race, man! By continuing to have faith. Good grief. What did you think I thought it means to run the race?


Is salvation a gift or a prize?Both.


A gift is something we freely accept. A prize is something you work for and earn.The gift of salvation is freely offered and we must choose to either accept or reject it. It's a gift in that sense but it's also a prize because we have to do something in order to receive it (repent and believe). We don't have to do good works to receive it, which is what you're arguing against. Do you understand that I agree with you on that? But we are required to repent and believe and my view is that we are required to continue to be repentant and continue to believe until the end (of our lives or the age, whichever comes first).


If someone stops running then what does that say about their faith? Not truly rooted and established from the start. I disagree. How could they even begin running and leave the starting line if that was the case? Paul is talking about people who have begun the race to continue running it in order to receive the prize. Where does he speak of it being a guarantee that once you have started the race you will finish it? And where does he indicate that if you don't finish it that means you never even started it?


You could see it that way or you could understand "if" to mean that keeping our confidence firm until the end is proof of genuine conversion. I don't see that as being a viable possibility of how Heb 3:14 should be understood. Why even mention departing from God a couple verses earlier if it's a guarantee that we will keep our confidence firm until the end?


[SIZE=4][SIZE=2]The ability to hold firm to the end, to continue in the faith, etc. is not humanly derived. We are empowered by Christ who lives in us to do these things. He just does that then? We have no responsibility to submit to Him? Why is it that I'm not doing the right thing at all times then? It sure doesn't feel like those things just happen automatically regardless of what I do. I'm certain that's not how it works. While I agree that He gives us the power to do the works God has for us to do, I disagree that He causes us to submit to Him and continue in the faith. That would mean we are basically just puppets that He controls. I don't feel like a puppet, though.


Needing to do it in order to become partakers of Christ or needing to do it in order to demonstrate that we have become partakers of Christ? Endurance does not come through the flesh, but through the power of God.Again, I didn't say it was through the power of the flesh. Our flesh is weak. I'm not saying the power comes from there. We are required to believe with our hearts, not our flesh (Rom 10:9-10).


Is our faith rooted in Him in order to receive this power? If God promised to preserve His saints forever (Psalm 37:28) and keep us strong to the end (1 Corinthians 1:8) and seal us with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30) then how is this all about US doing something to the end? Do we endure in our own strength? Clearly, we have responsibility in this or else it wouldn't be possible to grieve or quench the Holy Spirit. You somehow think that God just does literally everything for us without us being responsible to do anything, including having faith. I just don't see that taught in scripture anywhere.


We must repent and have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Once we do, are we kept by our own power or by the power of God? Where does the Bible say "lose saving faith, lose salvation?" Where does the Bible say that we can become UN-sealed by the Holy Spirit? I already addressed Ephesians 4:25-31. I see no loss of salvation mentioned in those verses. You know the passages I've shared to back up my view. Why do you need to ask me these questions? Have you forgotten which passages I believe support my view? If so, read the thread again. I'm not going to repeat what I've already said earlier.


Whenever we sin are we giving place to the devil? Do we never sin? I never said that it wasn't possible for those who are born of God to grieve the Holy Spirit or engage in bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking. It happens - For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. (Galatians 5:17) We are not sinless and perfect. I just don't see where you come up with "lose your salvation" in these verses.Again, I'm not saying someone loses their salvation each time they sin. How ridiculous! I can't believe you would think I believe that. What I'm saying, though, is that if one does not acknowledge those sins and continues doing those things they could end up being comfortable doing those things and end up not being repentant of doing those things. I believe scripture warns us about that, but you don't see it. I can't help that. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. What more can I say that I haven't already said about that?


If our salvation is performance based then we are all in trouble.It's not and I've never said that. You are clearly not getting what I'm saying and, frankly, that's kind of frustrating. What really matters is what is in our hearts. Our attitudes. That is our responsibility to maintain the right attitude in our hearts. God doesn't do that for us. What should be the case for a Christian is that we quickly feel sorrowful after sinning, but what I'm saying is that we have to examine ourselves every day to make sure that is the kind of attitude that we have. Jesus even told the disciples to be careful not to be deceived (Matt 24:5). We can't think that we are immune from going astray in our hearts. Scripture doesn't teach that.


I guess that you and I will have to agree to disagree on this.That's okay. There's a point when we need to do that instead of repeating ourselves over and over again. That only leads to frustration.


You see this as individuals losing their salvation and in some cases regaining it back (Romans 11:23) "graft them in again." I believe the Apostle Paul here is speaking about Jews and Gentiles in corporate, not individual, terms.But the basis for being grafted in is faith. How can that be a corporate thing rather than individual? Individuals are responsible to have faith, not nations or other corporate entities.


Verse 22 is saying "Just as Israel fell from the place of God's goodness, the same thing could happen to you Gentiles".Not all of Israel. It was just those who were in unbelief. It was individual branches (plural) that were cut off, not the entire nation. It doesn't say one branch was cut off. The remnant of Israelites who believed were not broken off.


It sounds like you are very satisfied with what you already believe and don't even want to consider anything that opposes your view. That seems to be the case with many people. That's nonsense. You aren't budging an inch from what you believe. Should I accuse you of the same thing you're accusing me of here? How would you like that? You wouldn't. I don't believe what I do because this is the only view I have considered. I have considered all of the views that I'm aware of and the one I believe in is the one that I believe fits scripture the best.


The chief priests and Pharisees were not believers and were cut off. If God took that which was natural, broke it off, set it aside and grafted in an old wild olive tree, the Gentiles, and He's been letting them enjoy all the possibilities of salvation and blessing that Israel at one time had, but when they have rejected it, and rejected it, and rejected it, then God will do the same thing with the Gentiles that He did with Israel.I really don't get what you're saying here at all. Are you saying God would cut off salvation from all Gentiles if some Gentiles rejected it? How would that be fair to the Gentiles who do believe? Do you understand that not all the Israelites were cut off but rather only those who were in unbelief (Rom 11:20)? I think you are missing what Paul taught in Romans 11 completely.

mailmandan
Apr 17th 2013, 07:40 PM
We'll just have to agree to disagree. There's a point when we need to do that instead of repeating ourselves over and over again. That only leads to frustration.

Amen! Sounds like the best plan. At least we both agree that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and is not by works. That is the most critical agreement of all! ;)

John146
Apr 17th 2013, 07:54 PM
Amen! Sounds like the best plan. At least we both agree that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and is not by works. That is the most critical agreement of all! ;)I think it's also critical to understand that God wants everyone to be saved, that He calls everyone to salvation, and that everyone must choose whether to believe in or reject the gospel. Do you agree?

mailmandan
Apr 17th 2013, 08:08 PM
I think it's also critical to understand that God wants everyone to be saved, that He calls everyone to salvation, and that everyone must choose whether to believe in or reject the gospel. Do you agree?

I absolutely agree!

John146
Apr 17th 2013, 09:36 PM
I absolutely agree!That's good enough for me. We can't expect to agree on everything. While I believe a saved person can lose their salvation, I choose to look at it like the author of Hebrews (based on verses like Heb 6:9 and Heb 10:39). While I believe it's possible for a believer to fall away, I'm confident of better things for us. I'm not going to live in fear of falling away. I'm going to instead try to "press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil 3:14). :)

mailmandan
Apr 24th 2013, 11:14 AM
That's good enough for me. We can't expect to agree on everything. While I believe a saved person can lose their salvation, I choose to look at it like the author of Hebrews (based on verses like Heb 6:9 and Heb 10:39). While I believe it's possible for a believer to fall away, I'm confident of better things for us. I'm not going to live in fear of falling away. I'm going to instead try to "press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil 3:14). :)

Amen! I'm confident of better things for us as well. Fear and bondage to IN-security about falling away is no way to live the victorious Christian life. I'm going to instead try to "press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil 3:14) as well. :)