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Michael John
Apr 4th 2013, 02:20 PM
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By the time of Christ the Passover celebration was an eight day period comprising the preparation day, eating the Passover & seven days of unleavened bread:
Preparation day of the 14thAbib, starts at sunset and all leaven is removed the following morning, before the Passover lambs are killed in the afternoon. They then eat the Passover with the unleavened bread sometime after sunset starting the 15th Abib: For these seven days they eat unleavened bread !

Memorial Passover is eaten near home and they march back after midnight !

The Passover is eaten standing up !

The Biblical day starts at sunset - each night preceding its own day ! A faultless Passover lamb is carefully chosen and separated on the tenth day of the year: i.e. on the 10th of Abib !

It is scrutinised until the afternoon of the fourteenth when it is killed. It is roasted, then eaten after sunset on the evening of the fifteenth. A holy convocation starts the next morning, still the fifteenth.

Yahshua arrived in Bethany by sunset on the ninth, six days before Passover - prior to the evening supper on the tenth (see John 12: 1–15). After the next morning, still the tenth, Christ humbly entered into Jerusalem riding a donkey. Later that afternoon - the tenth day of Abib, He presented Himself unblemished in the temple, and then returned to Bethany (Mark 11: 1–11).

The next day, the 11th Abib Sabbath, He drove the traders out the Temple. Teaching daily in the Temple under their scrutiny to discredit Him, they conspired how to trade back inside the Temple.

On the 13th as He sat at supper (Mark 14:3 and Matthew 26:6): “the most Holy” was anointed in Bethany (Daniel 9:24).


“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (a non calendar week - week ═ period of sevens i.e. the seven days from the 11th to 17th Abib – between selecting the Passover lamb and the resurrection !) and in the midst of the week ( i.e. the 4th of these 7 days: the 14th Abib !) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease . . .” (Daniel 9: 27).

( For the 2013/2014 year, Roman Sundays synchronise with Biblical weekly Sabbaths, and the Wednesday midst of the pagan Roman week synchronises with the 14th Abib midst of the seven days He “shall confirm the covenant with many for one week”. This is how they switched the Sabbath to Sundays ! )

After sunset starting the 14th Christ had the “Last Supper.”

The Passover is not “sodden at all with water” ! i.e. “The Last Supper” was not the Feast of the Passover !

When eating the Passover standing up, they were not permitted outside “until the morning”- after midnight. Also, Yahshua would not have broken an everlasting “ordinance” by refraining from partaking in Yahweh’s Passover Feast !

They were obviously still preparing the needs for the Passover, and as John noticeably stated, this supper was in fact the evening meal “before the feast of the passover” - the evening starting the twenty four hour “preparation” day, in which the Passover lamb was to be killed.

“And when they had sung a hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.” Probably long before midnight, however, after Passover they proceed home after midnight, simulating the Exodus out of the land of bondage !

Later that evening He was arrested, un-scripturally tried at night and condemned to a slow torturous death by the Sanhedrin. After sunrise that same 14th the Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, was too weak to save Him.

The murderer Barabbas was freed in Christ’s stead.

Cabbalistically, Bar Abba ═ “son of the father” !

Pontius Pilate gave Yahshua to them, and they crucified Him soon afterwards.

Yahshua was crucified and then His body placed in the tomb just before sunset on the fourteenth.

The fifteenth day Passover evening feast was then eaten !

Surely after this sunset the fearful disciples again met as planned, in that house as they had the preparation evening before, and ate the Passover without Him - as He had prophesied ! Some disciples would have still completely prepared the Passover along with many others in Jerusalem: as Yahshua had instructed them ! “And the disciples did as Yahshua had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.” They prepared it to be eaten at Yahweh's appointed time and place - “according to all the ordinances of the passover”

So that evening the Passover was eaten and they refrained from work. As they stood and ate the Passover lamb, were they too traumatised by the events of the last 24 hours to fully understand the significance of Yahweh’s Passover Sacrifice, with the words of Yahshua at the last supper ?

Early the next morning, that same fifteenth day, Christ's body was obviously first checked, the tomb sealed and the guard set. This fifteenth day was still the High Day Sabbath.

According to the Dead Sea Scroll’s and Maccabean and Enoch solar calendar, the sixteenth of Abib is the fifth day of the week. The seventeenth of Abib was the third night and also the third day in the tomb: Yahshua rose after this seventeenth day of Abib on the seventh day of the week, as “Lord of the Sabbath” (See Matthew 12:8 ). After the third day, the 18th is theresurrection centre of the Feast of Unleavened Bread ! This Sabbath was deliberately mistranslated to “first (day) of the week”.

Christ’s body was hurriedly laid in the tomb on the fourteenth afternoon - just before that sunset beginning the fifteenth Passover Feast and High Day Sabbath: evening Passover supper and following day holy convocation. The sepulchre was then made sure until the third day, and the seal and guard prevented the traditional anointing of the body. Christ’s body was therefore not fully prepared according to tradition. Before dawn on the eighteenth, the two Mary’s arrived hoping to finally access the tomb and anoint the body – as permitted on the normal weekly Sabbath.

Christ had already risen before dawn this eighteenth day and appeared to many people throughout this weekly Sabbath day.

The evening of the 19th is the first working day of this Biblical week. The reaping of the Omer took place immediately after sunset, publically starting the harvest. The firstfruits sheaf offering was waved in the morning Temple service. Yahshua too, presented Himself to His Father, before accepting any mortal human contact. This is the morning after the weekly Sabbath, when the first cut corn is waved:

I.e. the 19th Abib of Deuteronomy 16:9, after the Passover and weekly Sabbath, when the sickle initially cuts the wave sheaf, begins the 7 × 7 day calculation of the harvest weeks up to the feast of the grain harvest on the 50th day of Pentecost !

7 × 7 + 1 ═ 50 days

I.e. after He was “cut off” His body was laid in the tomb before sunset on the fourteenth. The fifteenth, sixteenth and seventeenth it remained in the tomb. Sometime on the eighteenth day Sabbath Yahshua rose from the dead – the first-fruits of the grave. After sunset starting the nineteenth, the Omer was reaped. In the morning the wave sheaf first-fruits was offered in the Temple: Yahshua ascended to His and our Fathers throne, and presented Himself to Yahweh our God ! (See John 20: 17)

Christ’s crucifixion ended all our sacrifice and sin offerings, which foreshadowed the same covenant in stone, confirmed and renewed in His flesh and blood:

“Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:28)

“ . . . to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness. . .” (Daniel 9:24).

However, the sacrifice of the Feast of Yahweh’s Passover, is forever, even when Christ eats it, as He said He would, in the Kingdom !

After the third day, the 18th is the Sabbath resurrection centre of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.


For an inspiring account of the Passover, see “The Passover Lamb of God” at
http://www.declarethedecree.com/marriage_of_the_lamb_appendix_e_linkpg93.doc

LandShark
Apr 4th 2013, 02:40 PM
The Passover was eaten standing up in Egypt, we are no longer in Egypt. We have plenty of historical evidence that the Passover meal was eaten in home, including:

Mar 14:13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.
Mar 14:14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Mar 14:15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.
Mar 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Mar 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
Mar 14:18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.

The Feasts use a historical event where God did a great thing for His people that ALSO paints a Prophetic picture of the work Messiah would do. We are not to duplicate the original event, we are to pass the story on AND embrace the Prophetic picture. We sit and eat the Passover.

episkopos
Apr 4th 2013, 02:56 PM
By the time of Christ the Passover celebration was an eight day period comprising the preparation day, eating the Passover & seven days of unleavened bread:
Preparation day of the 14thAbib, starts at sunset and all leaven is removed the following morning, before the Passover lambs are killed in the afternoon. They then eat the Passover with the unleavened bread sometime after sunset starting the 15th Abib: For these seven days they eat unleavened bread !

This is inaccurate.

The Passover began on the 14th and continued till the 21st.


Exo 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

episkopos
Apr 4th 2013, 03:03 PM
Cabbalistically, Bar Abba ═ “son of the father” !

There is no cabbala here. Bar Abba is Aramaic for “son of the father”

episkopos
Apr 4th 2013, 03:07 PM
7 × 7 + 1 ═ 50 days

Whether one accepts that Jesus was raised on the first day of the week (saturday evening) a simple calculation shows that the church was born on the first day (saturday evening). Seven sabbaths plus one = saturday night. We also see that the church gathered AFTER the sabbath havdallah. Then the brethren could meet...both Jews and Gentiles.

episkopos
Apr 4th 2013, 03:12 PM
Joh_20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
Joh_20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Act_20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

The early church met on saturday evening....which is the beginning of the first day of the week.

Liquid Tension
Apr 4th 2013, 03:13 PM
Honestly, the OP is basically trolling. He started two other threads of a similar subject (calendar) and bailed out after. Zero interest in discussion.

LandShark
Apr 4th 2013, 03:22 PM
Whether one accepts that Jesus was raised on the first day of the week (saturday evening) a simple calculation shows that the church was born on the first day (saturday evening). Seven sabbaths plus one = saturday night. We also see that the church gathered AFTER the sabbath havdallah. Then the brethren could meet...both Jews and Gentiles.

Well said on both accounts. I was wondered what Kabbalism had to do with a simple Aramaic phrase? I disagree only in one area though... I don't see the church as being born then. Ekklesia just means to be called out or "the called out ones." We see Israel called Ekklesia enough times in the LXX to negate a Shavuot/Pentecost "birth" of the church. (see Deuteronomy 4.10; 9:10; 18:16; 23:3 and 8; 32.1 to name a few times in the Septuagint) We even see Israel in the wilderness outside of Sinai being called the church in Acts 7:38. The question becomes, did Jesus come to create a new religion, or Prophetically walk on an established but often forsaken path? I think the latter, but I have been wrong before! :) Blessings!

episkopos
Apr 4th 2013, 03:37 PM
Well said on both accounts. I was wondered what Kabbalism had to do with a simple Aramaic phrase? I disagree only in one area though... I don't see the church as being born then. Ekklesia just means to be called out or "the called out ones." We see Israel called Ekklesia enough times in the LXX to negate a Shavuot/Pentecost "birth" of the church. (see Deuteronomy 4.10; 9:10; 18:16; 23:3 and 8; 32.1 to name a few times in the Septuagint) We even see Israel in the wilderness outside of Sinai being called the church in Acts 7:38. The question becomes, did Jesus come to create a new religion, or Prophetically walk on an established but often forsaken path? I think the latter, but I have been wrong before! :) Blessings!

Greetings to you!!! If we remember that the law was given to Israel at Pentecost....and that the Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, then we see that the church of Christ is empowered by the newness of life in the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. So HIS church (according to the Spirit) was born at Pentecost just like the nation of Israel was born at Pentecost of old.

LandShark
Apr 4th 2013, 04:47 PM
Greetings to you!!! If we remember that the law was given to Israel at Pentecost....and that the Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, then we see that the church of Christ is empowered by the newness of life in the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. So HIS church (according to the Spirit) was born at Pentecost just like the nation of Israel was born at Pentecost of old.

I agree basically, with some twists. I gave a talk a few years ago about Israel being given the Torah on Shavuot. (Pentecost) However, Moses went up more than once, so which time was Shavuot? Well, I believe that it was the first time, when he went up and received what amounted to an outline, a promise, that he presented to the elders who agreed. Once they did so, Moses went back for the rest.

What is the picture here? Paul says in 2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5 that the giving of the Spirit was "an earnest" (a down payment) which would indicate there is more to come. So on the Shavuot after the ascension of our blessed Savior we received a down payment in the form of the Spirit with the promise that more "was to come." What is the more? The completion of the Torah (God's Instructions) being written on the mind and heart. I do believe through the Spirit that process has started, but since there is still a need to teach AND not all know YHWH (see Jer. 31:31-34 and/or Hebrews 8:8-11), then that work is not done. The giving of the Spirit was an earnest toward that day. Blessings.

BrianW
Apr 4th 2013, 08:01 PM
Honestly, the OP is basically trolling. He started two other threads of a similar subject (calendar) and bailed out after. Zero interest in discussion.

You are correct but far be it for me to deprive brothers LandShark & episkopos from commenting on things that they have an interest in. I'm also enjoying their correcting the OP on the finer points and showing where he is in error. Thank God we have brothers who have a mind for these kinds of things.
Seriously, thanks and reps given guys. It would take me days of pouring over scripture, commentary and source books to even get my head around the OP enough to say " I agree" or "I disagree."

Liquid Tension
Apr 4th 2013, 11:09 PM
You are correct but far be it for me to deprive brothers LandShark & episkopos from commenting on things that they have an interest in. I'm also enjoying their correcting the OP on the finer points and showing where he is in error. Thank God we have brothers who have a mind for these kinds of things.
Seriously, thanks and reps given guys. It would take me days of pouring over scripture, commentary and source books to even get my head around the OP enough to say " I agree" or "I disagree."

I agree with you here.

ewq1938
Apr 5th 2013, 11:24 PM
The Passover is eaten standing up !

Of course since chairs hadn't been invented yet. I eat all my meals this way as well. I'm pretty sure God commands to eat this way somewhere.

RabbiKnife
Apr 5th 2013, 11:27 PM
"And as Jesus reclined at the table, He said..."

ewq1938
Apr 5th 2013, 11:41 PM
"And as Jesus reclined at the table, He said..."


re·cline
/riˈklīn/
Verb

Lean or lie back in a relaxed position with the back supported by a wall or other object.
(of a seat) Be able to have the back moved into a sloping position by leaning against a wall or other object.

Liquid Tension
Apr 6th 2013, 12:08 AM
Me thinks the point was missed......

RabbiKnife
Apr 6th 2013, 12:09 AM
Sorry, never could draw pictures...

ewq1938
Apr 6th 2013, 12:44 AM
Me thinks the point was missed......

The joke certainly was.

Michael John
Apr 6th 2013, 01:14 PM
I suggest that the readers read the post “INTRODUCTION TO THE TEMPLE CALENDER” and then actually do the exercise in the post “Debunking Esau’s Calendar” before commenting.

Regarding Barabbas, the Sanhedrin condemned an innocent Christ to death for claiming to be who He was: the Son of God, and sarcastically freed a guilty criminal by the name of “Son of the Father” ! Christ told them previously they were of their father the Devil !

If the “Last Supper” was a Passover according to Exodus 12:18, then they would have eaten unleavened bread that day and up until the twenty first, making it a total of eight days and not seven days ! The Gospel Greek indicates that they ate leavened bread and that Christ made a “sop” with the bread for Judas. There are other things which indicate that “The Last Supper” was not a Passover Feast !

The contradiction within Exodus 12:18 is explained by looking up the “fourteenth” in this verse. It is Strong's #6240 and means the Hebrew equivalent of “teenth” , of thirteenth, fourteenth, fifteenth, sixteenth, seventeenth, eighteenth or nineteenth. It appears that the Masoretic text conveniently ‘neglected’ to transcribe what “teenth” it was from the originals they then ‘lost’. Therefore the “four” of “fourteenth” should be in italics to indicate that it is an insertion. The seven days of unleavened bread to the twenty-first in the same verse, indicates that they made an ‘error’ and it should definitely read “fifteenth” to comply with the leavened bread calculation within the verse, and also other verses in the Bible.

There are Medieval paintings depicting the Passover being eaten standing up with staves in their hands. The Passover is instructed to be eaten in haste, fully dressed with footwear ready to leave simulating the first Passover. The “Last Supper” was eaten sitting down in someone else's guest house on the 14th Abib preparation day, prior to the Passover on the 15th. Christ implied that they would eat the 15th Abib Passover without Him, which they did probably at the same guest house venue after His body was placed in the tomb. They would then have walked the short distance home from the guest house after midnight.

episkopos
Apr 6th 2013, 01:49 PM
I suggest that the readers read the post “INTRODUCTION TO THE TEMPLE CALENDER” and then actually do the exercise in the post “Debunking Esau’s Calendar” before commenting.

Regarding Barabbas, the Sanhedrin condemned an innocent Christ to death for claiming to be who He was: the Son of God, and sarcastically freed a guilty criminal by the name of “Son of the Father” ! Christ told them previously they were of their father the Devil !

If the “Last Supper” was a Passover according to Exodus 12:18, then they would have eaten unleavened bread that day and up until the twenty first, making it a total of eight days and not seven days ! The Gospel Greek indicates that they ate leavened bread and that Christ made a “sop” with the bread for Judas. There are other things which indicate that “The Last Supper” was not a Passover Feast !

The contradiction within Exodus 12:18 is explained by looking up the “fourteenth” in this verse. It is Strong's #6240 and means the Hebrew equivalent of “teenth” , of thirteenth, fourteenth, fifteenth, sixteenth, seventeenth, eighteenth or nineteenth. It appears that the Masoretic text conveniently ‘neglected’ to transcribe what “teenth” it was from the originals they then ‘lost’. Therefore the “four” of “fourteenth” should be in italics to indicate that it is an insertion. The seven days of unleavened bread to the twenty-first in the same verse, indicates that they made an ‘error’ and it should definitely read “fifteenth” to comply with the leavened bread calculation within the verse, and also other verses in the Bible.

There are Medieval paintings depicting the Passover being eaten standing up with staves in their hands. The Passover is instructed to be eaten in haste, fully dressed with footwear ready to leave simulating the first Passover. The “Last Supper” was eaten sitting down in someone else's guest house on the 14th Abib preparation day, prior to the Passover on the 15th. Christ implied that they would eat the 15th Abib Passover without Him, which they did probably at the same guest house venue after His body was placed in the tomb. They would then have walked the short distance home from the guest house after midnight.

Wrong again...

The Masoretic Hebrew text says...Barishon b'arba-ah asar yom lachodesh

In Hebrew 4 is arbah (or arba-ah in the masculine). The word we use in English that means "teen" (10) is in the Hebrew asar (for ten)

So arba-ah asar is 4-10...or 14.

Vakeros
Apr 6th 2013, 03:45 PM
I suggest that the readers read the post “INTRODUCTION TO THE TEMPLE CALENDER” and then actually do the exercise in the post “Debunking Esau’s Calendar” before commenting.
I read the Introduction to the Temple Calender, but when I tried to comment the post was gone. However just to clear up what I noticed, you make an assumption that a High Sabbath cannot be also a Sabbath. Scripture doesn't say that. What it clarifies is how a High Sabbath is to be dealt with regardless of which day it falls.
Secondly, the firstfruits is always the day after Sabbath, but it ISN'T a High Sabbath, nor Holy Convocation. It is a Day of Reaping. Also the 10th Abib ISN'T a High Sabbath.
Assuming for now that you are correct that a High Sabbath can't be a Sabbath let's have a look at the calendar.
14th is the Day of Preparation, which we assume can't be a Sabbath and 15th is a High Sabbath, then 7th & 8th also can't be Sabbath's, nor 21st & 22nd, nor 28th & 29th.
10th is for selecting the Lamb, let's assume it can't be a Sabbath, then also 3rd, 17th, and 24th aren't Sabbath's.
So we know 3, 7, 8, 10, 14, 15, 17, 21, 22, 24, 28, 29 aren't Sabbaths. Of these dates only the 15th and 22nd are High Sabbaths.
Now fitting this into the Gospel account when Jesus died, we know He died on the Day of Preparation, which is 14th, the following day was the High Sabbath 15th and that was followed by the normal Sabbath as there were two Sabbaths together (Matt 28:1) so we have Jesus raised from the dead on 1st day of the week, at dawn. So Jesus rose on the 17th which is also the date of firstfruits.
However I don't believe that 10th can't be a Sabbath, and I am not convinced that scripture teaches that a Sabbath can't also be a High Sabbath. Though firstfruits is ALWAYS on Sunday. If this were true then Passover can NEVER be Wed 14th & Thu 15th, nor Fri 14th & Sat 15th.
What I do see from scripture is that Passover can NEVER be Sat 14th & Sun 15th.

Michael John
Apr 6th 2013, 07:46 PM
According to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible “fourteenth” of Exodus 12:18 is number:

06240 rse `asar aw-sawr'

from 06235; n m/f; {See TWOT on 1711 @@ '1711b'}

AV-eleven +0259 9, eleven + 06249 6, eleventh + 06249 13, eleventh + 0259 4, twelve + 08147 106, twelfth + 08147 21, thirteen + 07969 13, thirteenth + 07969 11, etc to nineteen 152; 335

1) ten, -teen (in combination with other numbers)
1a) used only in combination to make the numbers 11-19

As I said, according to Strong’s, the “four” is an addition and therefore should be in italics. Based on the seven days unleavened bread and working backwards from “the one and twentieth day of the month”, how can the correct insertion not be “five” making it correctly read “fifteenth”, thus confirming that the “fifteenth” to “twenty-first” is seven days unleavened bread ! This confirms that “five” would be the correct insertion to make sense of the verse, and confirms other references to the Passover !

There are many anomalies in the Bible, especially around the Passover and calendar issue. That is why this post was titled “PASSOVER PLOT”. We can get to the truth, or we can continue to have the wool pulled over our eyes.

The post “INTRODUCTION TO THE TEMPLE CALENDER” does seem to be lost, but to avoid confusion I suggest that viewers read the post “Debunking Esau’s Calendar” and see for themselves what I said:

Leviticus 23: 37-38 makes it clear that weekly Sabbaths are not High Day Sabbaths !

Nowhere did I say that the firstfruits was a High Day Sabbath or Holy Convocation !

Nowhere did I say that the 10th was a Sabbath or High Day !

The 10th cannot be a Sabbath because that is the day that the Passover lambs are laboriously separated from the rest of the flocks, and is the same day Christ entered Jerusalem on a donkey five days before Passover, which was not a weekly Sabbath !

There were two Sabbaths, the Passover High Day Sabbath and the next weekly Sabbath, and Matthew 28:1 as well as Mark 16:1 are actually referring to the one day interval between them, the seventeenth:

And when the sabbath was past,
( “se’nnight, i.e. the interval between two Sabbaths” see Strong’s #4521-
i.e. After this interval between the Passover High Day Sabbath and the regular weekly Sabbath )
Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
And very early in the morning the first day of the week,
( see Strong’s #4521 “first of the Sabbaths” singular or plural !
I.e. the 1st Sabbath after which the 7 ×7 day weekly Sabbath count started for
the 49 days to the last of the Sabbaths, before the next 50th day of Pentecost. )
they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. And they said among themselves,
Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre ? (Mark 16: 1–3).

Matthew 28:1,4 shows the same thing !

Christ rose on the eighteenth day weekly Sabbath, and the firstfruits/Omer was the following nineteenth day, the day after the weekly Sabbath !

Finally, unless you unfetter yourself from the Pagan Roman Sunday, Monday, Wednesday etc. you will never be able to clearly discern the Biblical calendar !

For a full explanation of the “Passover Plot”, undistorted by forum misquotes and misinformation, viewers are advised to go to The Temple Calendar on the website http://www.declarethedecree.com

Vakeros
Apr 6th 2013, 08:59 PM
Don't get what you are trying to say. Firstly 10th where do you get laboriously from? It isn't there in Exo 12 or Lev 23! Secondly there were two Sabbaths, one the High Sabbath followed by the weekly Sabbath. Firstfruits is always the day after the weekly Sabbath (Lev 23:11) so it can only be the 18th IF the 18th were Sunday - that is started Saturday night, finishes Sunday afternoon. However for the 14th to be Tue / Wed and 15th to be Wed / Thu then the 10th would be Friday sunset through to Saturday sunset - which is the Sabbath This is contrary to what you have put above that the 10th cannot be a Sabbath! Also this would mean Jesus died on Wednesday before sunset and 3 days later would mean he rose on the Sabbath. Excluding 14th you have 15th Wed night and Thurs day, 16th Thurs night and Fri day, 17th Fri night and Sat day - more than 3 days and nights if Jesus rises on 18th Sat night or Sun day.
So it is clear that Jesus died on Thurs day 14th and rose on Sat night 17th. Nothing else fits- using your process of elimination.

LandShark
Apr 6th 2013, 11:49 PM
I suggest that the readers read the post “INTRODUCTION TO THE TEMPLE CALENDER” and then actually do the exercise in the post “Debunking Esau’s Calendar” before commenting.

Regarding Barabbas, the Sanhedrin condemned an innocent Christ to death for claiming to be who He was: the Son of God, and sarcastically freed a guilty criminal by the name of “Son of the Father” ! Christ told them previously they were of their father the Devil !

If the “Last Supper” was a Passover according to Exodus 12:18, then they would have eaten unleavened bread that day and up until the twenty first, making it a total of eight days and not seven days ! The Gospel Greek indicates that they ate leavened bread and that Christ made a “sop” with the bread for Judas. There are other things which indicate that “The Last Supper” was not a Passover Feast !

The contradiction within Exodus 12:18 is explained by looking up the “fourteenth” in this verse. It is Strong's #6240 and means the Hebrew equivalent of “teenth” , of thirteenth, fourteenth, fifteenth, sixteenth, seventeenth, eighteenth or nineteenth. It appears that the Masoretic text conveniently ‘neglected’ to transcribe what “teenth” it was from the originals they then ‘lost’. Therefore the “four” of “fourteenth” should be in italics to indicate that it is an insertion. The seven days of unleavened bread to the twenty-first in the same verse, indicates that they made an ‘error’ and it should definitely read “fifteenth” to comply with the leavened bread calculation within the verse, and also other verses in the Bible.

There are Medieval paintings depicting the Passover being eaten standing up with staves in their hands. The Passover is instructed to be eaten in haste, fully dressed with footwear ready to leave simulating the first Passover. The “Last Supper” was eaten sitting down in someone else's guest house on the 14th Abib preparation day, prior to the Passover on the 15th. Christ implied that they would eat the 15th Abib Passover without Him, which they did probably at the same guest house venue after His body was placed in the tomb. They would then have walked the short distance home from the guest house after midnight.


Wrong again...

The Masoretic Hebrew text says...Barishon b'arba-ah asar yom lachodesh

In Hebrew 4 is arbah (or arba-ah in the masculine). The word we use in English that means "teen" (10) is in the Hebrew asar (for ten)

So arba-ah asar is 4-10...or 14.

One of the more frustrating aspects of Christianity is that we allow an understanding (or lack of one) to pit us against one another. I am positive that it doesn't maker Father happy!

Why this is a point of contention is beyond me, and why one has to cast doubt on the texts is beyond me. Michael John, did it occur to perhaps see how those words are used in other places?

Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.

(PLEASE NOTE - Hebrew reads right to left)

In the above verse, what is rendered as "14th" is seen in the Hebrew as עָשָׂרH6240 בְּאַרְבָּעָהH702. The beit prefix (בְּ) mean "on," so "on the 14th."

In Exodus 12:6 we read עָשָׂרH6240 עַד אַרְבָּעָהH702. (Again, right to left) The ayin dalet before arba'ah asar is "to" but I am also fairly sure (but open to correction) that it is rendered "the." In any event, we still see aba'ah asar rendered "14th" in Exodus 12:6 just as it is in Lev. 23:5. And seeing Messiah died when the lambs were dying to fulfill an aspect of what this day was ALWAYS pointing to, I see no reason at all, whether in the text or in context outside, to not see arba'ah asar as anything but 14th.

Michael John
Apr 7th 2013, 01:07 PM
JS Cobb, thank you very much for showing that Episcopos, is correct and that I was wrong regarding the “fourteenth”. My sincere apologies to everyone !

How does this effect the 14th/15th issue in the Passover ?

“In the first <07223> month, on the fourteenth <06240> <0702> day <03117> of the month <02320> at even <06153>, ye shall eat <0398> (8799) unleavened bread <04682>, until the one <0259> and twentieth <06242> day <03117> of the month <02320> at even <06153>.” (Exodus 12:18)

• If “at even” refers to the beginning of the fourteenth after sunset, for seven days until the same time on the “one and twentieth day”, this means that no leavened bread can be eaten on the fourteenth, although leavened bread was eaten at the “Last Supper”. This also means that leavened bread can be eaten on the twenty first day because it is after the seventh day of unleavened bread, the eighth day.

• If “at even” refers to the first going down of the sun starting at midday, the same principle applies to half of the fourteenth day and half the twenty first day. ( I personally don't believe that there is a change of day at midday.)

• If “at even” refers to the second going down of the sun starting at sunset, this scenario ensures that no leavened bread is eaten from the beginning of the fifteenth for seven full days to the end of the twenty first day ! This also explains why leavened bread was eaten at the “Last Supper” !

Although I was admittedly wrong about the “fourteenth” translation, and am grateful for the correction, this last scenario still supports the view that the “Last Supper” was not a Passover Feast, and that the Passover is killed on the Preparation day of the fourteenth at 3pm, and eaten sometime after sunset on the night of the fifteenth !

Any Corrections ?

LandShark, like with the start of the month and the start of the day this 14th/15th issue will always be in dispute. Unfortunately they have to be resolved somehow or other sooner or later, but the preponderance of evidence in favour of one or the other has to decide in the meantime.

Vakeros, I meant “laboriously” as in labour, as in work, as in hard work herding and sorting flocks of sheep to choose a perfect unblemished Passover lamb: which obviously cannot be done on a weekly Sabbath !

We need to forget about the Pagan Roman calendar !

The 18th was a Biblical seventh day weekly Sabbath.

The 10th was a Biblical sixth day.

The 14th, 15th, 16th, and 17th were the Biblical 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th days respectively of the Biblical week.

The 19th Abib was the firstfruits/Omer after the 18th weekly Sabbath.

Christ was crucified on the 14th, in the tomb at sunset starting the 15th, and after the 17th sunset He rose after a full three days: on the 18th weekly Sabbath as “Lord of the Sabbath” !

This is what this process of elimination proves, and confirms the Dead Sea Scroll’s calendar !

We must not allow ourselves to be confused by the Passover/Easter mind games played using the Pagan Roman calendar.

Why must we try and reconcile the Bible to a pagan calendar ?

If you really want to see exactly HOW THEY CHANGED THE PASSOVER CRUCIFIXION AND FIRST OF SABBATHS TO GOOD FRIDAY AND EASTER SUNDAY, go to page 9 of “The Temple Calendar” at: http://www.declarethedecree.com/the_temple_calendar.doc

episkopos
Apr 7th 2013, 01:49 PM
JS Cobb, thank you very much for showing that Episcopos, is correct and that I was wrong regarding the “fourteenth”. My sincere apologies to everyone !

How does this effect the 14th/15th issue in the Passover ?

“In the first <07223> month, on the fourteenth <06240> <0702> day <03117> of the month <02320> at even <06153>, ye shall eat <0398> (8799) unleavened bread <04682>, until the one <0259> and twentieth <06242> day <03117> of the month <02320> at even <06153>.” (Exodus 12:18)

• If “at even” refers to the beginning of the fourteenth after sunset, for seven days until the same time on the “one and twentieth day”, this means that no leavened bread can be eaten on the fourteenth, although leavened bread was eaten at the “Last Supper”. This also means that leavened bread can be eaten on the twenty first day because it is after the seventh day of unleavened bread, the eighth day.

• If “at even” refers to the first going down of the sun starting at midday, the same principle applies to half of the fourteenth day and half the twenty first day. ( I personally don't believe that there is a change of day at midday.)

• If “at even” refers to the second going down of the sun starting at sunset, this scenario ensures that no leavened bread is eaten from the beginning of the fifteenth for seven full days to the end of the twenty first day ! This also explains why leavened bread was eaten at the “Last Supper” !

Although I was admittedly wrong about the “fourteenth” translation, and am grateful for the correction, this last scenario still supports the view that the “Last Supper” was not a Passover Feast, and that the Passover is killed on the Preparation day of the fourteenth at 3pm, and eaten sometime after sunset on the night of the fifteenth !

Any Corrections ?

LandShark, like with the start of the month and the start of the day this 14th/15th issue will always be in dispute. Unfortunately they have to be resolved somehow or other sooner or later, but the preponderance of evidence in favour of one or the other has to decide in the meantime.

Vakeros, I meant “laboriously” as in labour, as in work, as in hard work herding and sorting flocks of sheep to choose a perfect unblemished Passover lamb: which obviously cannot be done on a weekly Sabbath !

We need to forget about the Pagan Roman calendar !

The 18th was a Biblical seventh day weekly Sabbath.

The 10th was a Biblical sixth day.

The 14th, 15th, 16th, and 17th were the Biblical 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th days respectively of the Biblical week.

The 19th Abib was the firstfruits/Omer after the 18th weekly Sabbath.

Christ was crucified on the 14th, in the tomb at sunset starting the 15th, and after the 17th sunset He rose after a full three days: on the 18th weekly Sabbath as “Lord of the Sabbath” !

This is what this process of elimination proves, and confirms the Dead Sea Scroll’s calendar !

We must not allow ourselves to be confused by the Passover/Easter mind games played using the Pagan Roman calendar.

Why must we try and reconcile the Bible to a pagan calendar ?

If you really want to see exactly HOW THEY CHANGED THE PASSOVER CRUCIFIXION AND FIRST OF SABBATHS TO GOOD FRIDAY AND EASTER SUNDAY, go to page 9 of “The Temple Calendar” at: http://www.declarethedecree.com/the_temple_calendar.doc

Exo 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

Since the day begins at even (evening), unleavened bread would have been partaken immediately beginning the 14th day.

Exo 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Here we see that the very beginning of the 14th at evening the lamb is killed. Remember that the day begins at evening.


So both unleavened bread AND the lamb were eaten on the 14th at evening.

If we understand that the sacrifice of Jesus was concurrent with the offering of the lamb with it's blood covering the household...then Jesus would have to have had His seder one day prior....on the 13th at evening.

But then that is not what is written in the gospel...

Mat 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
Mat 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mat 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
Mat 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

Here we see that there are 2 possibilities...Jesus celebrated the evening AFTER the 14th...ie the 15th at evening....or else He did it on the actual night of the 14th with everyone else...either way they ate unleavened bread. Jesus body was un-leavened (no sin) so He could not have offered up leavened bread to represent His body.

So Jesus was killed during the feast of unleavened bread either on the 14th day or the 15th day of the month.

What is important in all this is the time of resurrection. Jesus was resurrected on the first day of the week. The first day began at even on saturday...or the evening after the sabbath (7th day)

Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Why AFTER the traditional sabbath?

Notice it says...the end of the sabbath...Jesus was going further than the traditional sabbath...into the 8th day...resurrection day.

So this is not business as usual. The resurrection of Jesus Christ brings a real new world order that walks in newness of life. So we walk in a perpetual sabbath rest...not according to tradition, but according to power of the risen Lord.

That is why Christians called the first day...the Lord's day. Jesus Christ is BOTH the first AND the Last the alpha AND the omega. So He was both honoured tradionally at the last day of the week and NOW at the first day. Here we see both covenants...the first according to the letter and the second according to the Spirit.

episkopos
Apr 7th 2013, 02:03 PM
According to the Old Testament, the first and eighth day was also a Sabbath.....a foreshadow of God's plan of salvation.



Leviticus 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day [shall be] a sabbath, and on the eighth day [shall be] a sabbath.



The Apostle Paul said that the the Jewish Sabbath was only a shadow of things that were to come in Christ.



Colossians 2:16-17 So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.

Vakeros
Apr 8th 2013, 07:33 AM
Vakeros, I meant “laboriously” as in labour, as in work, as in hard work herding and sorting flocks of sheep to choose a perfect unblemished Passover lamb: which obviously cannot be done on a weekly Sabbath !
A few points about this.
1) They aren't doing any hard work of herding and sorting - they are looking and choosing.
2) Is this work for their own dwelling or work for the Lord? If we say the lamb is a sacrifice then surely it is for the Lord and as you highlighted in a previous post you see that as not equalling work
3) As I put, nowhere in scripture does it equate this choosing to work, nor does it equate this date specifically to a Sabbath or not.
4) Looking specifically at the week when Jesus rode the colt into Jerusalem, we can argue that on that 10th Nisan it wasn't a Sabbath because of the distance Jesus travelled and that people cut down Palm branches.
In my following your elimination process I accepted that 10th, thus 3rd, 17th and 24th aren't Sabbaths.


We need to forget about the Pagan Roman calendar !
Who is using a Roman Calendar? I wasn't.


The 18th was a Biblical seventh day weekly Sabbath. The 10th was a Biblical sixth day. The 14th, 15th, 16th, and 17th were the Biblical 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th days respectively of the Biblical week. The 19th Abib was the firstfruits/Omer after the 18th weekly Sabbath.
According to whom?
If the 10th was the sixth day then the following day must have been the Sabbath - 11th is a Sabbath? Mark 11 makes it very clear that the following day wasn't a Sabbath as Jesus again travels in from Bethany and clears the temple. In fact it is clear from the Gospel accounts that between the day that Jesus rode into Jerusalem and the day He was crucified there weren't any Sabbaths.
Now for this to be true it requires the 10th to be the 1st day of the week, the 14th would be the 5th day of the week and 15th the sixth day.


Christ was crucified on the 14th,Agreed

in the tomb at sunset starting the 15th, Before sunset - buried also on the 14th, but at twilight.

and after the 17th sunset He rose after a full three days: on the 18th weekly Sabbath as “Lord of the Sabbath” ! No, he rose on the 17th before sunrise! If he rose after sunset on the 18th then He would be in the grave:
(14 day) 15 night, 15 day, 16 night, 16 day, 17 night, 17 day, (18 night)
So more than 3 days and 3 nights, unless of course you have it just exactly 72 hours, hence your sunset to sunset. In addition you have the tomb unopened for almost 12 hours and Jesus doesn't reveal Himself to anyone. However the Gospels show Him revealing Himself to lots of people once He arose. However if we put what we know that Jesus was buried before sunset of the end of 14th then:
14 day, 15 night, 15 day, 16 night, 16 day, 17 night, Jesus arose at day break on 17th.


This is what this process of elimination proves, and confirms the Dead Sea Scroll’s calendar ! We must not allow ourselves to be confused by the Passover/Easter mind games played using the Pagan Roman calendar. Why must we try and reconcile the Bible to a pagan calendar ?
If you really want to see exactly HOW THEY CHANGED THE PASSOVER CRUCIFIXION AND FIRST OF SABBATHS TO GOOD FRIDAY AND EASTER SUNDAY, go to page 9 of “The Temple Calendar” at: http://www.declarethedecree.com/the_temple_calendar.doc
I haven't used a Pagan Calendar Your process of elimination has flaws which I showed in my previous post and added to a bit here.

RabbiKnife
Apr 8th 2013, 01:54 PM
I can't want for Odin's Day and Thor's Day this week, because I'm taking a day of vacation on Frigg's Day, and playing all day on Saturn's Day.

LandShark
Apr 8th 2013, 02:00 PM
I can't want for Odin's Day and Thor's Day this week, because I'm taking a day of vacation on Frigg's Day, and playing all day on Saturn's Day.

We live in the society we live, and certainly by calling a day Saturday we are not intending to honor Saturn. But is it really wise to make jokes about false gods that did (and perhaps still do in others forms) exist and led people away from God? Do whatever you want, but I see that in bad taste.

RabbiKnife
Apr 8th 2013, 02:05 PM
Sorry, I'm not wrapped that tight.

You see bad taste, I see enjoyment of freedom and life.

LandShark
Apr 8th 2013, 02:07 PM
Sorry, I'm not wrapped that tight.

You see bad taste, I see enjoyment of freedom and life.

Sorry, I just don't see the humor in souls being led away from God. And when we start making jokes about the false gods who did just that, well, I have said enough!

RabbiKnife
Apr 8th 2013, 02:10 PM
Know many Odin and Thor worshippers there, LandShark?

Did you hear this one?

Thor, Odin, and Saturn go into a bar....

Actually, I dare say that more people are led away from God by heretical teaching in Christianity than by worship of old Norse, Roman, and Greek gods.

Brother Mark
Apr 8th 2013, 02:41 PM
Actually, I dare say that more people are led away from God by heretical teaching in Christianity than by worship of old Norse, Roman, and Greek gods.

Agreed. One of the reasons I don't mind kids being taught about Hinduism, Islam or any other religion in school but am not so keen on Christianity being taught there.

RabbiKnife
Apr 8th 2013, 02:43 PM
Agreed. One of the reasons I don't mind kids being taught about Hinduism, Islam or any other religion in school but am not so keen on Christianity being taught there.

Agreed 100%..........................

LandShark
Apr 8th 2013, 02:45 PM
Actually, I dare say that more people are led away from God by heretical teaching in Christianity than by worship of old Norse, Roman, and Greek gods.

I agree too.... but when even ONE man is led from God at ANY time in history, our hearts which are supposed to reflect HIS should ache for them. To justify your joke with this line doesn't negate the fact that you openly enjoy humor that is wrapped around the spiritual death of others. Those who followed those gods died a spiritual death... that bothers me, yet it seems to be a source of amusement for you. I don't see God in that, sorry!

RabbiKnife
Apr 8th 2013, 02:52 PM
I am not the slightest bit concerned about those that have already died.

Nothing that you, I, nor God can do for them now.

I do not believe that anything in Scripture even suggests that "my hearts is to reflect His ache for them." Sentimental poppycock intended to lay guilt on those to whom no guilt is required.

LandShark
Apr 8th 2013, 03:00 PM
We are to reflect the God we serve. His attributes are to be seen in us... love, peace, joy, patience, long suffering, etc. All I am saying is, I don't see God making jokes about those who died not knowing Him because those people were led astray by false gods. If you see "sentimental poppycock," I could care less. This is silly that a grown man who claims to be a Christian can sit and justify making jokes about false gods. They may be false, but they were real and they led people to their spiritual deaths. Sure, why not use that as a source of amusement?? :B

RabbiKnife
Apr 8th 2013, 03:09 PM
Why not?

It is ludicrous for people to run around getting their tassels in a twist because "OH MY GOD WE HAVE THE DATE OF PASSOVER WRONG BECAUSE WE WORSHIP A PAGAN CALENDAR". I find that incredibly stupid. For people to be so nuts and then ignore the fact that our calendar (the pagan one) references names of days of the week that are derived from the names of Norse and Roman gods is the epitome of irony from my viewpoint.

For people to wring their hands over such triviality is pitiful.

Why not make jokes about false gods? "OH, maybe Thor and Odin are sleeping. Maybe they are away on a vacation. Maybe they are taking a leak... Yell louder, cut yourselves with stones."

Seems to me that there is an excellent precedence in Scripture for making fun of false gods and the people that worship them.

But then, that's just me. I'm not very sensitive.

keck553
Apr 8th 2013, 03:33 PM
Why not?

It is ludicrous for people to run around getting their tassels in a twist because "OH MY GOD WE HAVE THE DATE OF PASSOVER WRONG BECAUSE WE WORSHIP A PAGAN CALENDAR". I find that incredibly stupid. For people to be so nuts and then ignore the fact that our calendar (the pagan one) references names of days of the week that are derived from the names of Norse and Roman gods is the epitome of irony from my viewpoint.

For people to wring their hands over such triviality is pitiful.

Why not make jokes about false gods? "OH, maybe Thor and Odin are sleeping. Maybe they are away on a vacation. Maybe they are taking a leak... Yell louder, cut yourselves with stones."

Seems to me that there is an excellent precedence in Scripture for making fun of false gods and the people that worship them.

But then, that's just me. I'm not very sensitive.

in our town we have streets named Freya and Thor. Are they to be avoided? Yet the very ones who freak out over pagan names regularly refer to the month of Nissan with that Babylonian name. Ironic?

Again, the legalists get all bound up over a date and a name (that they usually mis-associate with "paganism") and completely and totally miss the content. I've heard arguments over barley ripening in various parts of Israel go on for hours and hours and distressed chatter about pagan rituals and bowing before Christmas trees and mis-associating the word "Easter" with simular sounding Babylonian words and SUNday and Saturn-day and on and on and on about how Christians don't honor God because they don't count the Omar or build Sukkahs, and how perserverence equals parading around in public with Tzitzit and Katels and kippuhs (as a witness).

Yet the content of things like celebrating ressurection day, rejoicing over the birth of Messiah (endless arguments about the date there too), the content of being declared righteous in the pattern of Abraham rather than in the pattern of Moses is completely ignored or disdained.

LandShark
Apr 8th 2013, 04:52 PM
Seems to me that there is an excellent precedence in Scripture for making fun of false gods and the people that worship them.

I don't see anything in Scripture that affords us to make "fun" of people who don't or didn't know God. I will leave this go, I just think it is in bad taste and reflects poorly on the whole "love your neighbor" concept.

RabbiKnife
Apr 8th 2013, 04:57 PM
I picked something from the Old Testament, since you like that part.

1 Kings 18: 7 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

I am not neighbors with dead people whom I have never encountered.

episkopos
Apr 8th 2013, 05:44 PM
I picked something from the Old Testament, since you like that part.

1 Kings 18: 7 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

I am not neighbors with dead people whom I have never encountered.

Elijah also called fire down from heaven to annihilate people. When John suggested that Jesus do the same thing to the Samaritan village Jesus rebuked him. I think what Land Shark is getting at involves something about the new life (since Jesus) and the love that it supposedly fosters in Elijah...I mean Christ followers.

LandShark
Apr 8th 2013, 06:45 PM
I picked something from the Old Testament, since you like that part.

1 Kings 18: 7 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

I am not neighbors with dead people whom I have never encountered.

You're not Elijah!

RabbiKnife
Apr 8th 2013, 06:47 PM
I'm not Jesus either.

So? According to Jesus, I am greater than Elijah.


I am simply pointing to a Biblical example of where the mocking of false gods was fully approved of.

LandShark
Apr 8th 2013, 06:48 PM
Elijah also called fire down from heaven to annihilate people. When John suggested that Jesus do the same thing to the Samaritan village Jesus rebuked him. I think what Land Shark is getting at involves something about the new life (since Jesus) and the love that it supposedly fosters in Elijah...I mean Christ followers.

Basically, here is the simple of it.... do you see Jesus, the model we follow, poking fun at and trying to get a laugh from others over those humans who have been led astray and are likely now DAMNED because of their involvement with false gods? The answer is no, that would go against his shem, his name... character. God loved the world, even the pagans who were led astray, so much, he sent his son to die for them. The fact that you are still defending yourself (RK) is ridiculous! But, I am done... like the Law thread I won't open this one again either. If you feel the need Rabbi Knife to make sure I see something you have to say, PM it, because I won't look in here again!

Liquid Tension
Apr 8th 2013, 08:18 PM
But then, that's just me. I'm not very sensitive.

:hmm: I've never noticed. :D

Michael John
Apr 11th 2013, 10:27 PM
My computer has been down for a couple of days. I see that the thread has strayed a bit: RabbiKnife and LandShark should rather start a new thread discussing the occult influence in both Paganism and the six pointed star.

Getting back to the topic I would like to respond to some things, but first point out some unanswered statements I made:



Leviticus 23: 37-38 makes it clear that weekly Sabbaths are not High Day Sabbaths !
There were two Sabbaths, the Passover High Day Sabbath and the next weekly Sabbath, and Matthew 28:1 as well as Mark 16:1 are actually referring to the one day interval between them, the seventeenth:


“And when the sabbath was past,
( “se’nnight, i.e. the interval between two Sabbaths” see Strong’s #4521-
i.e. After this interval between the Passover High Day Sabbath and the regular weekly Sabbath )
Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
And very early in the morning the first day of the week,
( see Strong’s #4521 “first of the Sabbaths” singular or plural !
I.e. the 1st Sabbath after which the 7 ×7 day weekly Sabbath count started for
the 49 days to the last of the Sabbaths, before the next 50th day of Pentecost. )
they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. And they said among themselves,
Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre ?” (Mark 16: 1–3).

Matthew 28:1,4 shows the same thing !



There are Medieval paintings depicting the Passover being eaten standing up with staves in their hands. The Passover is instructed to be eaten in haste, fully dressed with footwear ready to leave simulating the first Passover. The “Last Supper” was eaten sitting down in someone else's guest house on the 14th Abib preparation day, prior to the Passover on the 15th. Christ implied that they would eat the 15th Abib Passover without Him, which they did, probably at the same guest house venue after His body was placed in the tomb. They would then have walked the short distance home from the guest house after midnight.
If the “Last Supper” was a Passover according to Exodus 12:18, then they would have eaten unleavened bread that day and up to and including the twenty first day, making it a total of eight days and not seven days !
Regarding Exodus 12:18

• If “at even” refers to the beginning of the fourteenth after sunset, for seven days until the same time on the “one and twentieth day”, this means that no leavened bread can be eaten on the fourteenth, although leavened bread was eaten at the “Last Supper”. This also means that leavened bread can be eaten on the twenty first day because it is after the seventh day of unleavened bread, the eighth day.

• If “at even” refers to the first going down of the sun starting at midday, the same principle applies to half of the fourteenth day and half the twenty first day. ( I personally don't believe that there is a change of day at midday.)

• If “at even” refers to the second going down of the sun starting at sunset, this scenario ensures that no leavened bread is eaten from the beginning of the fifteenth for seven full days to the end of the twenty first day ! This also explains why leavened bread was eaten at the “Last Supper” ! ( What does the Greek words say about the “bread” at the “Last Supper” ? )


The Feast of Unleavened Bread during the first month is for a duration of seven days up to and including the 21st day, not the 22nd day of the month ! This makes the start of the seven days the fifteenth, not the 14th ! This is unlike the Feast of the seventh month which makes the eighth day 22nd of the month, the day after the seven day feast, a Sabbath. The Feast of Unleavened Bread is for the duration of seven days, there is no “eighth” day ! The 22nd is not a High Day Sabbath in the Feast of Unleavened Bread !


The Passover is killed in the fourteenth day and eaten on the fifteenth day with unleavened bread. For seven days unleavened bread is eaten up to and including the 21st day of the month.

For centuries there has been mind games played using the Roman calendar and the “first day of the week”, the “eighth day”, the “Sabbath” etc. If we stay embroiled in the Roman calendar we will always have the wool pulled over our eyes, as I said.

Vakeros, you say “Who is using a Roman Calendar? I wasn't. . . I haven't used a Pagan Calendar” yet the Roman “Monday” is the only pagan Roman calendar weekday you haven't repeatedly used to try understand the Passover, Crucifixion and Resurrection events ! For example you said:

“Though firstfruits is ALWAYS on Sunday. If this were true then Passover can NEVER be Wed 14th & Thu 15th, nor Fri 14th & Sat 15th.
What I do see from scripture is that Passover can NEVER be Sat 14th & Sun 15th.”

This is crazy nonsense, I have never seen any Biblical day of the Biblical week referred to in the Bible by a Pagan name of a Pagan week !

We have to forget about the Pagan Roman week ! Throw it out !

The Passover lamb is not just chosen; it is carefully selected and then removed from the rest of the flock.
Like us, sheep are notoriously timed and stupid creatures. I have had limited exposure to working with them and I think it would be fair to say that herding and sorting them can be classified as work. That’s probably why they call sheepdogs “work dogs”, and they make the “work” of dealing with these silly creatures a lot easier ! The tithe was destined for the Temple, yet was acquired through hard work six days of the week, but not on the Sabbath ! Why can’t this principle also apply to selecting and separating the Passover lamb ?

There was only no Sabbath in the Temple ! Outside the Temple this didn’t apply, and that included the 10th of Abib. Christ’s custom was to teach in the Synagogues or Temple on the Sabbath day, which He also didn’t do after riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. The 10th was not a Sabbath. He got there too late, walked in, looked around and left – i.e. He, the Passover Lamb, was chosen by huge popular demand and led into Jerusalem, where He briefly presented Himself in the Temple. On the 11th in the Temple, as “Lord of the Sabbath” He drove out the traders. That couldn’t have been very easy, even with popular support ! He then started teaching as His custom was on the Sabbath – there is no proof that this day was not a Sabbath !

The 22nd is not a High Day Sabbath in the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It falls outside the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and is still not a High Day Sabbath !

Leviticus 23: 37-38 makes it clear that weekly Sabbaths are not High Day Sabbaths !

The Biblical week always comprises seven days, not eight days. The “eighth” day in the feast of the seventh month is not the end of an eight day week ! This “eighth day” High Day Sabbath actually falls on the fourth day of the seven day Biblical week, confirmed by the Dead Sea Scroll’s calendar !

As pointed out, the manipulated translation of both Mark 16: 1–3 and Matthew 28:1,4 was used to switch the weekly seventh day Sabbath to the pagan Sunday ! This was done when the pagan Roman calendar Sunday almost synchronises with the Biblical calendar Sabbath, as it does every few years for the whole year ! The mistranslated “first day of the week” and “eighth day” gobbledygook is used to disguise this fact and justify the switch ! You are also trying to get the resurrection to occur on the mistranslated “first day of the week”. This “day” is in italics and you need to look up “week”. Remember this is also not a Pagan week.
If you really want to see exactly HOW THEY CHANGED THE PASSOVER CRUCIFIXION AND FIRST OF SABBATHS TO GOOD FRIDAY AND EASTER SUNDAY, go to page 9 of “The Temple Calendar” at: http://www.declarethedecree.com/the_temple_calendar.doc (http://www.declarethedecree.com/the_temple_calendar.doc)

The resurrection did not occur on “the first day of the week”, but on the first of the Sabbaths: the first Sabbath which is followed by another seven Sabbaths of the 49 day count up to the 50th day of Pentecost ! Very cleaver manipulation, why don't you want to see it ? !

The seventh day Sabbath of the “ten commandments” never changes, even into the millennium reign.

Whose authority forbade Christ to travel the two miles from Bethany to the Temple if the 11th was a Sabbath ? Christ was constantly at odds with “tradition”. The Bible does not disqualify the 11th as a Sabbath !

Exactly what time before sunrise was Christ resurrected ? Who says He “arose at day break” ? Christ was exactly 72 hours of three full nights and three full days in the tomb: is that impossible for Him ? Neither the Lunar calendar, nor the “Sun day” Roman Pagan week you use, are able to do this !

Between His first appearance and His ascension Christ was many, many hours at a time unseen by anybody, why not also for a period of approximately 12 hours after 72 hours in tomb and a sunset resurrection ? Why do you have a problem with that ? He has been visibly “hidden” ever since His ascension !

If you do the “process of elimination” you need to think carefully about the relationship between the Omer, the weekly Sabbath and the High Day Sabbath.

Vakeros
Apr 12th 2013, 10:35 AM
Leviticus 23: 37-38 makes it clear that weekly Sabbaths are not High Day Sabbaths !
There were two Sabbaths, the Passover High Day Sabbath and the next weekly Sabbath, and Matthew 28:1 as well as Mark 16:1 are actually referring to the one day interval between them, the seventeenth:

“And when the sabbath was past,
( “se’nnight, i.e. the interval between two Sabbaths” see Strong’s #4521-
i.e. After this interval between the Passover High Day Sabbath and the regular weekly Sabbath )
Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
And very early in the morning the first day of the week,
( see Strong’s #4521 “first of the Sabbaths” singular or plural !
I.e. the 1st Sabbath after which the 7 ×7 day weekly Sabbath count started for
the 49 days to the last of the Sabbaths, before the next 50th day of Pentecost. )
they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. And they said among themselves,
Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre ?” (Mark 16: 1–3).
Matthew 28:1,4 shows the same thing !
If you do the “process of elimination” you need to think carefully about the relationship between the Omer, the weekly Sabbath and the High Day Sabbath.
Let's look at the above two points to see if you are correct.
1) Lev 23 37-38 doesn't actually state that High Sabbaths can't be Sabbaths. What it states is that High Sabbaths are apart from, or separate from Sabbaths. This does suggest that a High Sabbath won't be a Sabbath, but it doesn't actually say they are in addition to Sabbaths. Rather it is specifying that a High Sabbath is treated differently to a normal day or a Sabbath day.
2) You take the point in Strong's G4521 that the Sabbaton refers to the interval between Sabbaths. That is indeed one meaning of Sabbaton. Another is the plural form of Sabbath i.e. when there are two Sabbaths such as a High Sabbath and a normal Sabbath.
Now let's follow the process of elimination using YOUR idea of the Sabbaton meaning an interval of one day between Sabbaths and see if it works. I will also use your preferred convention of calling the Sabbath the 7th day, Sunday the 1st day etc, noting that each day starts at sunset. Now your understanding of Sabbaton requires Jesus to be resurrected on the day between the Sabbaths. Matt 28:1 states it is the 1st day of the week - this is NOT ever a Sabbath. It could be a High Sabbath, but the 7th day is always Sabbath. It also does NOT mean the day after a High Sabbath. The 1st day of the week is always the first day of the week. However if we understand it to mean the day between the Sabbaths then that is different. Let us look at two options to see if that works.
Option A: The Sabbath is the 7th day, the next day is the intervening day - so day 8 and the High Sabbath is day 9. Sorry, but that means that Jesus is crucified on day 8 as the High Sabbath is always the day after the Passover. This option really doesn't work.
Option B: The Sabbath is the 7th day, the previous day is the intervening day - so day 6 and the High Sabbath the day before - so day 5, with Jesus crucified on day 4. This looks a lot better. But hold on lets look at the time between the crucifixion and the resurrection.
Jesus dies on 4th day so 4th day, 5th night, 5th day, 6th night, 6th day Jesus is resurrected. It works if we are inclusive and ignore that it won't work from 3 days and 3 nights. In fact pretty much the same as those who hold to him dying on Friday and rising on Sunday. This doesn't match though with what you have put elsewhere. Now does it allow the women to be at the tomb on the 1st day of the week. You would have Matt 28:1 read as "Now after the intervening day of the Sabbaths...." or "Now on the intervening day of the Sabbath..."

Now using the same process of elimination, but using Sabbaton to mean a plural of Sabbaths as per Strong's G4521, so Matt 28:1 would read "Now after the Sabbaths, as the 1st day of the week...", let me put that into a time frame, similar to Option B.
The Sabbath is the 7th day, The High Sabbath was the previous day so the 6th day. The Passover is the 5th day. The day the women went is the 8th day, which is also the 1st day of the week. So far so good. Jesus died 5th day, 6th night, 6th day, 7th night, 7th day, 1st night Jesus is risen. This means He was in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights. It also fits the Gospel accounts. It also passes the process of elimination and holds to the meaning of the word Sabbaton.
Translating that into dates of the month. Jesus died on 14th, High Sabbath was 15th, Sabbath was 16th and Jesus rose on 17th, the third day after 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb.

LandShark
Apr 12th 2013, 06:25 PM
My computer has been down for a couple of days. I see that the thread has strayed a bit: RabbiKnife and LandShark should rather start a new thread discussing the occult influence in both Paganism and the six pointed star.

Kind of an ignorant thing to say! As for "pagan" things or words... a word means what it means in the day and culture it is used. If I worship with others on Saturday, that does not mean I am paying homage to Saturn? No, it means the culture I find myself living in uses that word for the 7th day. What's next, Lord = Ba'al and Jesus = Zeus? Just more from the Pagan Police and Torah Terrorists I guess!

As for the 72 hours? No, nothing is impossible... but, you are imposing your Greek influenced Western 21st century mindset on a first century Hebraic idiomatic phrase. There are a SCORE of examples of "3 days" being "ANY PART" of three days. There are examples of "3 days and nights" being "ANY PART" of three days and nights. What there is not any of in Scripture, is the term "3 days" being exactly 72 hours. Not that it can't be... it just can't be shown to be that in Scripture. But "3 days and nights" CAN be shown to be "any part" of 3 days and nights. You can't prove your point, it will always remain "your point" and not a "Scriptural point" because there is no Scripture to back a claim like that.

Michael John
Apr 12th 2013, 09:01 PM
Vakeros, as already pointed out, on some of the High Day Sabbaths cooking is expressly allowed. On the normal weekly Sabbaths included in the 10 commandments, cooking is not allowed. How can they both be kept on the same day without violating the weekly Sabbath or ensuring that the Passover is not eaten raw ??? Therefore High Day Sabbaths “apart” from the weekly Sabbaths does mean a separate day entirely !

You say: “Now your understanding of Sabbaton requires Jesus to be resurrected on the day between the Sabbaths.”

Nowhere did I say that Jesus was resurrected on the day between the Sabbaths !

Where did I say that ?

I think that you are still confusing your understanding and resurrection requirement, based on the false Pagan “Sun-day” “first day of the week”, and applying this faulty logic to what I say. Unfortunately you are still burdened with the Pagan Roman calendar. I must admit that it is very difficult to shake off its influence. It is actually almost mind bending stuff to break away from its lifetime of conditioning !

In this “first day of the week” “day” is in italics because it is an insertion, and “week” is actually “Sabbaths”, referring to the Feast of Weeks count –

i.e. this resurrection weekly Sabbath is “Ground Zero”, followed by the next seven weekly Sabbaths of the 7x7 day count to the last weekly Sabbath before Pentecost the following day !

That is what this “week/Sabbaths” is referring to, not the Pagan Roman first day of the week Sun-day ! ! !

This alone proves Christ rose on the weekly Sabbath and that Pentecost is immediately after a weekly Biblical Sabbath: not after your Pagan Roman “first day of the week’ ‘venerable Sun day’ ! ! !


The Passover High Day obviously precedes the resurrection, so your Option A shouldn’t even be considered !

In your Option B you are assuming that this interval between the two Sabbaths is a single day !

This interval is in fact two days: the 16th and 17th Abib, day 5 and day 6 of the Biblical week !

The Dead Sea Scroll’s calendar also shows this clearly ! Look it up on Wikipedia and work it out for yourself. They weren’t influenced by the Pagan Roman week !

Try the process of elimination now, and see what you get.

Michael John
Apr 12th 2013, 09:08 PM
LandShark, if the same event occured "in three days" and also "after three days", would that not indicate exactly 72 hours ?

Vakeros
Apr 12th 2013, 11:45 PM
Vakeros, as already pointed out, on some of the High Day Sabbaths cooking is expressly allowed. On the normal weekly Sabbaths included in the 10 commandments, cooking is not allowed. How can they both be kept on the same day without violating the weekly Sabbath or ensuring that the Passover is not eaten raw ??? Therefore High Day Sabbaths “apart” from the weekly Sabbaths does mean a separate day entirely !
You say: “Now your understanding of Sabbaton requires Jesus to be resurrected on the day between the Sabbaths.”
Nowhere did I say that Jesus was resurrected on the day between the Sabbaths !
Where did I say that ?
That is what I understood from your previous post. However if you say that is incorrect, you now are saying that Jesus rose from the dead on the Sabbath. Sorry, without a shred of doubt you are wrong. The Gospels clearly show that AFTER the Sabbath was ended the women bought spices. This they then took the next morning in order to put with the body. The two men had done a rushed job before because a Sabbath was about to start. Now if a Sabbath was about to start when Jesus died, this was the High Sabbath. Therefore there are two choices:
a) The women got the spices the day after this High Sabbath and in the morning early went to the tomb. This doesn't work any better than option B above or the traditional Good Friday scenario.
b) The women got the spices the day after the Sabbath and then went to the tomb the following morning. This fits if He died on the 5th day, 6th day was High Sabbath, 7th day was Sabbath and 8th day He rose.


I think that you are still confusing your understanding and resurrection requirement, based on the false Pagan “Sun-day” “first day of the week”, and applying this faulty logic to what I say. Unfortunately you are still burdened with the Pagan Roman calendar. I must admit that it is very difficult to shake off its influence. It is actually almost mind bending stuff to break away from its lifetime of conditioning !
No I don't have a big problem with this. You seem to, but that's OK.
What I think you are doing is confusing a Biblical week and the week of ULB. A biblical week starts in the evening of day 1 and finishes at sunset on day 7. The ULB week starts with a High Sabbath, which is the day after the day of preparation when the lambs are slain and Jesus died.


In this “first day of the week” “day” is in italics because it is an insertion, and “week” is actually “Sabbaths”, referring to the Feast of Weeks count
This interval is in fact two days: the 16th and 17th Abib, day 5 and day 6 of the Biblical week !
Jesus died on 14th Abib. The High Sabbath is 15th Abib and is the start of the Feast of ULB. The 16th Abib was Sabbath and the day after the Sabbaths is the 17th Abib.
I see no way through a process of elimination of getting Jesus to rise from the dead on any other day than the 17th Abib. What therefore is in question is the meaning of Sabbaton - Sabbaths, which you have as referring to an interval between Sabbaths. Read all the Gospel accounts it is clear that the women go to the tomb in the morning at dawn. This means roughly half of that day is over.It is also clear that it is the day after the Sabbaths. You cannot have the High Sabbath as the day after the Sabbath because then the day of preparation would be a Sabbath. So you come back to the option a) unless you have the High Sabbath immediately followed by a normal Sabbath. Anything else is contrary to various things we are told in the Gospels.

LandShark
Apr 13th 2013, 02:44 PM
LandShark, if the same event occured "in three days" and also "after three days", would that not indicate exactly 72 hours ?

Michael, with respect.... the phrase 3 days or 3 days and nights is idiomatic in Hebraic thinking. And since the writers of the books in question were not 21st century Western thinkers, then considering the paradigm of the writer of the time period in question is kind of important, I think. Now, consider this....

Mark 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

This phrase is repeated 8 times by Jesus directly, and referenced a few others. (i.e. Luke 24:7) Then we have:

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

So, we have Jesus saying BOTH that he would rise (literally stand up) on the third day, AND we have him saying "3 days and nights." Either he is contradicting himself, or... there is some abstract terminologies being used here. This happens a lot in Scripture Michael, we call Messiah a "lamb" when he lacks 4 legs, fur, and a tail for example.

Regardless, the idea that the Hebraic mind would think "72 hours" when hearing the term "3 days and nights" is not realistic, not historically supportable. If he died at 3:00PM on Passover then because there is still 3 hours of day left, that counts as day 1. Here are examples so as to not make this my "opinion."

2 Ch 10:5 And he said unto them, Come again unto me after three days. And the people departed. (Or "unto me again in 3 days")
2 Ch 10:12 So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day, as the king bade, saying, Come again to me on the third day.

In this case Michael, "in/again/after three days" is equivalent to "on the third day."

Esther 4.16: "Go, gather together all the Jews who are in Susa, and fast for me. Do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maids will fast as you do. When this is done, I will go to the king, even though it is against the law. And if I perish, I perish.'"
Esther 5.1: "On the third day Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the palace, in front of the king's hall."

In this case, "on the third day" is equivalent to "for three days, night or day".

I mean this, you are welcome to believe whatever you want. But the paradigm of the writers of Scripture did not think like we do here in the west. We see "proclaim the NAME of God" and think we are supposed to run around screaming whatever pronunciation of YHWH you happen to prefer to whoever gets stuck having to listen to us. When in fact, "proclaiming his name" is telling the world about His "attributes" like love, peace, patience, long suffering, etc. Our LACK of understanding when it comes to the Hebrew concept of SHEM (translated as "name") is why we think "proclaiming his name" means SAYING his name. Such is the case here, we see "three days and nights" and think "72 hours to the second" when "3 days" to a Hebrew was the day after tomorrow because he would have counted TODAY. :) Blessings!

Michael John
Apr 13th 2013, 09:36 PM
Vakeros, your understanding of what I have said in previous posts is incorrect, I have always said that Christ rose on the weekly Sabbath !

You have already conceded that it is possible there were two Sabbaths with an interval between them:

“You take the point in Strong's G4521 that the Sabbaton refers to the interval between Sabbaths. That is indeed one meaning of Sabbaton. Another is the plural form of Sabbath i.e. when there are two Sabbaths such as a High Sabbath and a normal Sabbath.”

The first Sabbath on the 15th Abib is obviously a High Day Sabbath, followed by two days in which they could buy more spices, but because of the guard and seal for three days they could not access the tomb to apply the spices to the body.

The second Sabbath is then also obviously the normal weekly Sabbath after the two day interval. “In the end of the Sabbath” is this two day interval between the High Day Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath !

The tomb guard and seal for three days was authorized and set the morning after the body was placed in the tomb, and their mandate would only expire at sunrise on the 18th Sabbath, thus finally allowing the woman access to the body when they arrived. They arrived very early before or at sunrise and the guard was still there.

With your version, why would the woman go to the tomb knowing it was sealed for another day or more ! The whole of Jerusalem and especially those close to Him, would have known about the guard and seal.

“In the end of the sabbath <4521>, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week <4521>, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.” (Matthew 28:1)

• “week” here is also “Sabbaton” and can mean the interval between two Sabbaths, or obviously Sabbath, and also Sabbaths (plural).

• If it is possible that this happens on the second (weekly) Sabbath, after the interval between two Sabbaths, you cannot say “It is also clear that it is the day after the Sabbaths”.

• You refuse to address the insertion “day” that is in italics, and its motivation.

• You refuse to apply two days for this interval between the Sabbaths, as shown in the Dead Sea Scroll’s ! ( Why do you repeatedly ignore the Dead Sea Scroll’s calendar in favor of your own ? )

I.e. Before they changed it to comply with the Easter Sun-day Pagan calendar week, it originally read something like this:

“In the end of the interval between the Sabbaths, as it began to dawn toward the first of the Sabbaths, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.”

As I said, the Dead Sea Scroll’s calendar is in line with this interpretation, not with the corrupted Easter version using their insertion of the word ”day” you are upholding.

You fail to show how any of this “is contrary to various things we are told in the Gospels”.

Before the Pagan Easter corruption, the early Christians knew that this interval was the two days between the Passover High Day Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath, and they also knew that this weekly “first of the Sabbaths” was the Sabbath preceding the seven Sabbaths (plural) of the 7x7 day Pentecost count, with Pentecost falling immediately after the last of the Sabbaths (plural) in this count !

I.e. there are eight Sabbaths in total and Pentecost falls on the eighth day of the third month ! This is the real significance of the “eight” Episcopos was going on about, which the Pagan Romans hijacked by attaching it to the “Sun-day” – the day after the seventh day, the so called ‘eighth day’ !

Vakeros
Apr 14th 2013, 08:54 AM
Vakeros, your understanding of what I have said in previous posts is incorrect, I have always said that Christ rose on the weekly Sabbath !
You have already conceded that it is possible there were two Sabbaths with an interval between them:
“You take the point in Strong's G4521 that the Sabbaton refers to the interval between Sabbaths. That is indeed one meaning of Sabbaton. Another is the plural form of Sabbath i.e. when there are two Sabbaths such as a High Sabbath and a normal Sabbath.”
The first Sabbath on the 15th Abib is obviously a High Day Sabbath, followed by two days in which they could buy more spices, but because of the guard and seal for three days they could not access the tomb to apply the spices to the body.
Sorry, but the women didn't wait for the three day seal to be completed. Otherwise you have the women going to work on Jesus body after the second Sabbath which if you have the High Sabbath as 15th, then one day interval 16th, then 2nd day interval 17th, then Sabbath 18th, then the women go on the 19th. That is wrong. Note also the guards were still at the tomb when Jesus rose from the dead.


The second Sabbath is then also obviously the normal weekly Sabbath after the two day interval. “In the end of the Sabbath” is this two day interval between the High Day Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath !
The tomb guard and seal for three days was authorized and set the morning after the body was placed in the tomb, and their mandate would only expire at sunrise on the 18th Sabbath, thus finally allowing the woman access to the body when they arrived. They arrived very early before or at sunrise and the guard was still there.
If they were placed there for 3 days from the morning after the body was laid then it would run from 15th to 18th. Yet you have the women either working on the Sabbath which they wouldn't have done, or a day later. The guards were still tere so still within the three day period Matt 28:4.


With your version, why would the woman go to the tomb knowing it was sealed for another day or more ! The whole of Jerusalem and especially those close to Him, would have known about the guard and seal.
Because they wanted at the earliest possibility to go and put the spices on the body. Mark 16:3 shows they didn't know how things would be accomplished.


“In the end of the sabbath <4521>, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week <4521>, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.” (Matthew 28:1)
• “week” here is also “Sabbaton” and can mean the interval between two Sabbaths, or obviously Sabbath, and also Sabbaths (plural).
• If it is possible that this happens on the second (weekly) Sabbath, after the interval between two Sabbaths, you cannot say “It is also clear that it is the day after the Sabbaths”.
• You refuse to address the insertion “day” that is in italics, and its motivation.
• You refuse to apply two days for this interval between the Sabbaths, as shown in the Dead Sea Scroll’s ! ( Why do you repeatedly ignore the Dead Sea Scroll’s calendar in favor of your own ? )
You are not making sense here. You had a process of elimination which I have shown doesn't add up, now you appeal to possible permutations of meaning - yet the interval between Sabbaths isn't two days. If between Sabbaths then it is a week. If between a High Sabbath and a Sabbath it could be any number. What do I care for the dead sea scrolls if they don't match scripture? Show how they match scripture.


[/B]
I.e. Before they changed it to comply with the Easter Sun-day Pagan calendar week, it originally read something like this:
“In the end of the interval between the Sabbaths, as it began to dawn toward the first of the Sabbaths, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.”
As I said, the Dead Sea Scroll’s calendar is in line with this interpretation, not with the corrupted Easter version using their insertion of the word ”day” you are upholding.
You fail to show how any of this “is contrary to various things we are told in the Gospels”.
Before the Pagan Easter corruption, the early Christians knew that this interval was the two days between the Passover High Day Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath, and they also knew that this weekly “first of the Sabbaths” was the Sabbath preceding the seven Sabbaths (plural) of the 7x7 day Pentecost count, with Pentecost falling immediately after the last of the Sabbaths (plural) in this count !
I.e. there are eight Sabbaths in total and Pentecost falls on the eighth day of the third month ! This is the real significance of the “eight” Episcopos was going on about, which the Pagan Romans hijacked by attaching it to the “Sun-day” – the day after the seventh day, the so called ‘eighth day’ !
This last really is unclear. Pentecost is 49 days after the firstfruits celebration which is one day after the weekly Sabbath. If the firstfruits falls within the Festival of ULB then there will be an additional High Sabbath within this period. This seems to be the case for that year. Not necessarily for other years. However this is immaterial for finding out when the Passover was.

Michael John
Apr 14th 2013, 07:49 PM
“Vakeros” - is that “slippery like eel” in English ? ( Hope you have a sense of humor.)

The guard was authorized and posted in the morning of the High Day 15th Sabbath, presumably about 12 hours after Christ was placed in the tomb. This period from the start of their vigil to the opening of the tomb is as follows:

• 15th am to 16th am = High Day Sabbath into 1st day interval between the Sabbaths.

• 16th am to 17th am = 1st day interval to 2nd day interval between the Sabbaths.

• 17th am to 18th am = 2nd day interval between the Sabbaths to sunrise on the weekly Sabbath.

Their mandate would expire at sunrise on the 18th weekly Sabbath. The women already knew that arriving any earlier would be pointless. They were hoping to access the tomb after the guard removed the seal and left, their only concern being who would help them roll away the very heavy stone door, not that they still wouldn’t be allowed to roll it away.

Everyone was ignorant of the fact that Christ “is risen” (already) 12 hours before, after 72 hours in the tomb. ( “Inclusive counting” aside for the moment. )

Is it lawful to prepare a body for burial on the weekly Sabbath ?? What would Christ say ?? I have read that it was lawful according to custom at the time. Whenever they found out, the women were obviously not satisfied with how much Joseph of Arimathaea had done for the body. So why then was Christ's body not still prepared into the Passover High Day Sabbath to their satisfaction ?? Buying more spices aside, could it be because for the Passover meal they were required to be indoors from sunset until midnight, and the guard later prevented them in the morning ?? In any case, we don't know when the women became dissatisfied enough to decide to redo the body’s preparation.


You are not making sense here. You had a process of elimination which I have shown doesn't add up, now you appeal to possible permutations of meaning - yet the interval between Sabbaths isn't two days. If between Sabbaths then it is a week. If between a High Sabbath and a Sabbath it could be any number. What do I care for the dead sea scrolls if they don't match scripture? Show how they match scripture.


If you had shown that the process of elimination doesn’t add up, I wouldn’t still be wasting my time here.
Because of your favored interpretation of “sabbath” and “week”, and your acceptance of the insertion “day” in Matthew 28:1, you believe this also proves your case. Yet you admit and say “If between a High Sabbath and a Sabbath it could be any number” of days. Therefore accepting two days, as in the Dead Sea Scrolls calendar, would then make it fit confirming what I say, wouldn’t it ?

Correctly understanding the Passover, Feast of Weeks and the Pentecost count starting with the Omer after the weekly Sabbath within the Feast of Unleavened Bread, as the Sadducees practiced it, reinforces the eight/eighth pattern by placing Pentecost on the eighth of the third month immediately after eight weekly Sabbaths ! Is that just a coincidence ? ! ! This cannot happen with any other version of events ! ( See page 13 of http://www.declarethedecree.com/the_temple_calendar.doc )

N.B. If the 16th Abib was a weekly Sabbath as you maintain, then the Pharisees would never have been able to successfully change the Sadducee Omer to this date, as they opportunistically did soon after the Sadducee authority in these matters was destroyed along with the Temple !

Michael John
Apr 15th 2013, 09:54 PM
Vakeros, this is my reply to your post in “Debunking Esau’s Calendar”:

You quote me, saying:

“If reaping the Omer ( Wave Sheaf Day ) has to occur after the weekly Sabbath within the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread, this leaves only four days in the Feast to place it, and one is its Sabbath: NO that is wrong. The reaping cannot occur on the Sabbath, nor the High Sabbath but it can occur on any other day of the week. So there are three days in the week which can't be the reaping. These are the first and last days of the Festival 15 & 22 and which ever day is the Sabbath. Now there is only one Sabbath during the Festival so it cannot be the 21st as then the next day would be a High Sabbath and not work.”

[“If reaping the Omer ( Wave Sheaf Day ) has to occur after the weekly Sabbath within the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread, this leaves only four days in the Feast to place it, and one is its Sabbath:”]

By this comment I am saying that of these four available days:

One day has to be the Omer day, and another day has to be the Sabbath that the Omer follows immediately after – i.e. “it’s Sabbath” the preceding day - the Sabbath day immediately before the Omer, as the Omer has to be immediately after a Sabbath. So we actually do agree here.

However you have also confused the chronology of the Feast of Unleavened Bread with the Feast of Tabernacles:

The former is for only 7 days from the 15th to the 21st – not the 22nd.

The latter is for seven days with the extra ”Last Great Day”, the so called “Eighth Day”.

( N.B. This extra “eighth day” is however alluded to in the eight/eighth pattern of the total eight weekly Sabbaths found across the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the Feast of Weeks, to Pentecost also on the eighth day of the third month.
See the illustration on page 13 of http://www.declarethedecree.com/the_temple_calendar.doc ).

You agreed: “Now as the feasts of ULB goes from 14th evening (IOW 15th) then we have for that week:
15 17 and 21 can't be Sabbath days. So 16 18 19 20 can all be a Sabbath” (weekly Sabbath).

So, remembering that the Omer is immediately coupled to its preceding day Sabbath, and visa versa, which of these four days can’t be the Omer day:

• The 15th is agreed that it cannot be a Sabbath, therefore the 16th cannot be the Omer day !

• The 17th is agreed that it cannot be a Sabbath, therefore the 18th cannot be the Omer day !

• Conversely the 21st is the 2nd High Day Sabbath, therefore the 20th cannot be the Omer day !

This leaves only the 19th Abib to reap the Omer and therefore the 18th has to be its preceding day weekly Sabbath !

Therefore the weekly Sabbaths in Abib are the 4th, 11th, 18th and 25th and this agrees with the DSS’s starting the first day of the year, on the fourth day of the week !

The start of the second half of the year in the seventh month, mirrors Abib for the Feasts and Weekly Sabbaths. Although admittedly they don't match scripture in everything they say, the Dead Sea Scroll’s do match scripture in this regard as demonstrated, therefore you should consider/”care” what they say.

Vakeros
Apr 16th 2013, 06:43 PM
Vakeros, this is my reply to your post in “Debunking Esau’s Calendar”:
You agreed: “Now as the feasts of ULB goes from 14th evening (IOW 15th) then we have for that week:
15 17 and 21 can't be Sabbath days. So 16 18 19 20 can all be a Sabbath” (weekly Sabbath).
So, remembering that the Omer is immediately coupled to its preceding day Sabbath, and visa versa, which of these four days can’t be the Omer day:
• The 15th is agreed that it cannot be a Sabbath, therefore the 16th cannot be the Omer day !
• The 17th is agreed that it cannot be a Sabbath, therefore the 18th cannot be the Omer day !
• Conversely the 21st is the 2nd High Day Sabbath, therefore the 20th cannot be the Omer day !
This leaves only the 19th Abib to reap the Omer and therefore the 18th has to be its preceding day weekly Sabbath !
Why can't the 16th be a Sabbath and the 17th the Omer day?
Agreed the 18th can be the Omer day.
Why can't the 19th be a Sabbath and the 20th the Omer day?
I see nothing in your reasoning which prevents anyone of those three days to be Omer days.
Also why do you force the Omer day to be tied into ULB? Nothing I read says it has to be during that week? Please show me the Bible reference that says it is? It seems that it was when Jesus was crucified, as we have the tie in with Shavuot that year with Pentecost. Is this always the case?

Michael John
Apr 17th 2013, 09:26 PM
Why can't the 16th be a Sabbath and the 17th the Omer day?
Agreed the 18th can be the Omer day.
Why can't the 19th be a Sabbath and the 20th the Omer day?
I see nothing in your reasoning which prevents anyone of those three days to be Omer days.
Also why do you force the Omer day to be tied into ULB? Nothing I read says it has to be during that week? Please show me the Bible reference that says it is? It seems that it was when Jesus was crucified, as we have the tie in with Shavuot that year with Pentecost. Is this always the case?

Vakeros, out of the many people interested in the Biblical calendar who have read this here and elsewhere, you are the only person who has proof-read the logic for me in this process. Slippery or not, you have succeeded in showing that I have made a mistake, and have to be commended. Well done !

I am sure that you also meant: “Agreed the 18th can not be the Omer day”, which shows how we can so easily make a typing error if we don't have someone else proof-read our work for us. Without one or more proof-readers it is amazing how often we can read over our own work without seeing the same error - even more so with a logic puzzle ! I am not making excuses, but if intelligent family members don't want to proof-read for you, where do you find someone like yourself who will ?

Regardless of how I confusingly made the mistake, I agree that you are correct: the 16th and 19th can also be possible weekly Sabbaths, and the 17th and 20th can also be possible Omer days within the Feast of Unleavened Bread. So we now have a total of three possible days for the Sabbath and three possible days for the Omer: the 16th, 18th and 19th; and the 17th, 19th and 20th respectively. (Thank’s very much ! )

From what I have read, the Sadducees and Pharisees both favored the Omer day within the Feast of unleavened Bread, but on different days.

On the other hand the Dead Sea Scroll’s show that they favored an Omer day after the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

I explained why I favor the former. Hopefully I have not made a similar mistake in the latter scenario after the Feast of unleavened Bread, where I have shown that the weekly Sabbath can be one of four days, after which the Omer is reaped/waved:

“They are the 23rd, 25th, 26th, and 27th. One of these days has to be a Sabbath, and the Omer has to be waved the following day. The Omer also can only be waved on the 24th, 26th, or 27th, because the 24th is a non-Sabbath work day and the 25th therefore cannot be the wave sheaf day. There is no way of pinpointing whether it is waved on the 24th, 26th, or 27th, unless we agree with the Dead Sea Scroll’s calendar starting the year on the fourth day of the week, as indicated by Genesis 1:14–19. In this case the weekly Sabbaths of Abib are still the 4th, 11th, 18th and 25th, and therefore the Omer is waved on the 26th, the day after the last Sabbath. The uncorrected solar calendar of the Dead Sea Scroll’s shows it this way, but it is not the way the Temple Sadducees practiced it – as shown above the Temple Sadducees started the Pentecost count one week earlier, with the Omer/Wave Sheaf . . . after the weekly Sabbath within the Feast of Unleavened Bread:

Christ Himself did not contest the Sadducee calendar practices for all of the weekly Sabbaths, Omer wave sheaf, and Festivals – and He attended them according to the Temple calendar of the Sadducees themselves !”

Until Vakeros came along, I was very happy to have more than just the Genesis 1:14–19 argument for fixing the weekly Sabbaths. Thanks to him this is no longer the case, and therefore I feel that this has to be perused further.

Whether the Omer falls within or after the Feast of Unleavened Bread, Shavuot and Pentecost are the same thing/day. They are synonymous. However only one day applies either to the one or the other scenario.

So for the 14 days from the 15th Abib to the 28th Abib, covering both the week within the Feast and also the week after the Feast of Unleavened Bread, we now have a total of 7 days that could be the Sabbath day preceding the Omer. Extrapolating these out to all their possible corresponding weekly Sabbaths for the whole month of Abib, we get 17 possible weekly Sabbaths. These are day numbers:

2, 4, 5, 6, 9, 11, 12, 13, 16, 18, 19, 20, 23, 25, 26, 27, 30.

For every one of these 17 possible weekly Sabbath days that can be eliminated as a Sabbath, its corresponding weekly days can also be eliminated, until hopefully only two sets remain: one for a weekly Sabbath within the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and one for the week after.

All Biblical references which directly or indirectly refer to days in Abib, need to be examined to see if those days are weekly Sabbaths or not.

Because or if the 7th month mirrors the 1st month, then references to these days in the 7th month can also apply to eliminating weekly Sabbaths in the 1st month !

Other things, like when after the Temple was destroyed and Sadducee authority swept away, the Pharisees making the 16th of Abib the day for the Omer. This can be taken to exclude the 2nd, 9th, 16th, 23rd and 30th Abib as possible weekly Sabbaths, although Biblical references are obviously preferable.

Vakeros
Apr 17th 2013, 10:08 PM
I only just managed to follow all that. Anyway I hope you note see why I can see the Passover on 14th, High Sabbath 15th, Sabbath 16th and Omer on 17th, which is one week after he rode into Jerusalem on the 10th (which I read as being the day after the Sabbath)

Michael John
Apr 19th 2013, 09:52 PM
A proven weekly Sabbath on the 9th and/or 16th would certainly bolster your case. You need to prove that any one of the 2nd, 9th, 16th, 23rd, or 30th Abib is a weekly Sabbath. ( I must sound like a broken record fixated on the Sabbath ! )

This is why I feel that irrefutably establishing any one weekly Sabbath in Abib, is the crux of solving all disputes around the Passover, the crucifixion, Pentecost and the rest of the calendar. Is this impossible for us to prove ?

So far you have proved that, along with everyone else, I have also failed to do that !

If evil men have conspired and hidden this thing, Yahweh has allowed them to succeed up to now (Daniel 7: 23–27).

“It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.” (Proverbs 25:2)

If I remember correctly, Christ came out of obscurity travelling and arriving in Bethany late on the 9th. I can’t see a weekly Sabbath on the 9th beyond dispute.

Also, as I have said more than once, the Pharisees changed the Omer date to the 16th Abib after the Temples destruction disempowered the Sadducees. We know this because this change was disputed by the Boethusian/Sadducean sect which previously controlled its date in the Temple. ( Google “Boethusian Sadducean Omer” ) Therefore I cannot see how the Pharisees could have succeeded in this change if for decades and generations the Jerusalem community were keeping the 16th Abib as a weekly Sabbath !

Therefore the 16th couldn’t have been a weekly Sabbath !

They would not have accepted a weekly Sabbath day becoming the Omer day when they knew that the Omer had to follow the day after the Sabbath !

On the other hand, many could be and were deceived into accepting the 16th as the Omer day, on the grounds that it followed after the Passover High Day Sabbath 15th Abib !

This is the first step to converting people to the false lunar calendar !

Also I wanted to bring the following up earlier in this thread, but the moment had passed:

After Christ appeared to the women near the tomb around sunrise:

“Then the same day at evening <3798> . . .” (John 20:19), Christ again appeared in the late afternoon ! The Biblical “same day” means before sunset !

Strong's no. 3798 oqiov opsios op'-see-os

from 3796; ; adj

AV-even 8, evening 4, in the evening + 1096 1, eventide + 5610 1, at even + 1096 1; 15

1) late
2) evening
2a) either from three to six o'clock p.m.
2b) from six o'clock p.m. to the beginning of night

Does this not show that despite being written in Greek, the idiom in John 20:19 is similar to the Hebrew idiom in Exodus 12:18 here:

“In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.” (Exodus 12:18).

Doesn’t this indicate that the “at even” of the “fourteenth day” is the late afternoon, near the second going down of the sun on the fourteenth, before/at sunset starting the fifteenth, not 12 hours earlier after sunset starting the fourteenth ? !

Isn't this an example of what could be called “exclusive counting” ? !

“Inclusive counting” is not a hard and fast ‘rule’ in either testaments !

Starting at the sunset of the 14th is at the end of the 14th because the previous sunset is the 13th and Exodus 12:18 specifically says it is the 14th !

Phrased this way it guarantees a full 7 days unleavened bread !

How else can this period be not more than seven days unleavened bread, and also include the 21st Abib !

To include the 14th for the Passover Feast with unleavened bread, and also the 21st would make it 8 days unleavened bread !

We all know that all preparation/killing of the Passover, and eating the Passover occurs on two separate days ! So obviously I feel that the Passover Lamb is “killed” / “cut off” on the 14th, but that the Passover Feast of Yahweh is eaten on the 15th, giving the total 7 days unleavened bread up to and including the 21st Abib.

Finally, to repeat another two things:

1. From the Dead Sea Scroll’s perspective, Genesis 1: 14-19 indicates that the first discernable night and day cycle on Earth occurred on the fourth day of creation week. Thus starting the year on this day fixes the weekly Sabbaths for the year as indicated in their solar calendar.

2. Removing the pagan Sun-day insertion “day”, and also correctly translating “Sabbaths” for “week” in both Mark 16:2 and Matthew 28:1, places Christ's resurrection on a weekly Sabbath.

If we accept these two points, Christ's resurrection could only have occurred at the start of an 18th Abib weekly Sabbath after 72 hours of three full nights and three full days in the tomb.

However, another Biblical verse pinpointing any one weekly Sabbath in Abib, will go a long way to solving all these disputes, don't you think ?

Or if we know the number of days in the relevant months, any identified weekly Sabbath day can be backtracked to Abib, the Omer and the resurrection.

Vakeros
Apr 19th 2013, 11:05 PM
What can't be done, is to prove every year the Passover and High Sabbath + Sabbath works on a certain day. It shows only that there is a certain number of choices.
However, what we do have is the fact that in that particular year when Jesus was crucified that the 10th wasn't a Sabbath, nor was any other day in that week. This is based mainly on Mark.
If the 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th aren't Sabbaths, then 9th and 16th must be. 17th then would be the Resurrection day.
We can confirm 14th and 15th aren't - you would also confirm 10th isn't which is bolstered by Him riding the donkey into Jerusalem and palm branches being cut etc.
Mark 11:12 has on the morrow - so this is 11th
Mark 11:20 and in the morning - so this is 12th
Mark 14:1 After two days was the feast of Passover and ULB - so this is the 13th
Mark 14:12 And the first day of ULB when they kill the Passover - so this is the 14th
So we see every day from the 10th to 14th accounted for and not a single Sabbath. So we can see that Jesus was crucified on 14th and raised on 17th.

Hope that is clear enough for you. I expect the other gospels just to confirm some of those events.

Michael John
Apr 20th 2013, 12:51 PM
Surly the 11th to the 17th is the non calendar seven day “week” of Daniel 9:27 -

“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week <07620>: and in the midst of the week <07620> he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. . .” (Daniel 9:27)

Strong's no. 07620 ewbv shabuwa` shaw-boo'- ah or ebv shabua` shaw-boo'- ah also (fem.) hebv sh@bu`ah sheb-oo-aw'

properly, pass part of 07650 as a denom. of 07651; n m; {See TWOT on 2318 @@ '2318d'}

AV-week 19, seven 1; 20

1) seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week
1a) period of seven days, a week
1a1) Feast of Weeks
1b) heptad, seven (of years)

“And he shall
confirm the covenant with many
for one week:
( a non calendar week - week ═ period of sevens. i.e. the seven days from the 11th. to 17th. Abib – between selecting the Passover lamb and the resurrection ! )
and in the midst of the week
( i.e. the 4th. of these 7 days: the 14th. Abib !)
he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation
to cease . . .” (Daniel 9: 27)

I.e. In the middle fourth day, 14th Abib, of this seven day period/week, Christ was the last and final sacrifice/oblation.

This whole seven day period “confirms the covenant”:

• The three full days and nights (72 hours) in the tomb as part of the sign of Jonah.
• The seven-day/weeks 4th or 14th Abib middle day He was “cut off”/crucified/sacrificed.
• The three days He taught in the Temple after expelling the traders, the 11th, 12th and 13th.

This period makes up a full non calendar period of 7 full days and nights (168 hours), and confirms the 72 hours of three full days and three full nights in the tomb !

It also shows that any of these three days that He taught in the Temple, the 11th, 12th and 13th, could easily have been a Sabbath !

When arrested Christ questioned why they were arresting Him in the dead of night, when since He arrived in Jerusalem He was daily with them in the Temple:

“In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.” (Matthew 26:55)

So any of these three days could have been a weekly Sabbath !

Removing the pagan Sun-day insertion “day”, and also correctly translating “Sabbaths” for “week” in both Mark 16:2 and Matthew 28:1, places Christ's resurrection on a weekly Sabbath.

This whole period comprises a full 168 hour seven day/week, which has to include a full 72 hours of three full days and three full nights in the tomb, otherwise the whole period would not be seven days/or a week !

Only the 18th fits in as a weekly Sabbath with this scenario, and therefore the 11th would be the Sabbath in the week before !

Vakeros
Apr 20th 2013, 01:46 PM
I thought we had already covered this. Jesus wasn't resurrected on a Sabbath. He was resurrected on the day after the Sabbaths. He was resurrected on the Omer day which is the day after the weekly Sabbath.
Let's look at the timeline:
14th evening Meal with disciples
14th day sacrificed and buried
15th evening ULB High Sabbath
15th day ULB HS
16th evening weekly Sabbath
16th day WS
17th evening the women go and buy spices for the body. Jesus is raised from the dead
17th day the Omer is reaped and offered
Again read the accounts in Mark. There is no mention of a Sabbath during those days. In fact due to the distances travelled from Bethany each day, they also couldn't have been Sabbaths.
Finally if you take the Daniel 9:27 as the week, then if it starts on the 10th which is when He rode into Jerusalem, it finishes on the 17th NOT the 18th.
I don't see this week fitting into Dan 9:27 for lots of reasons, but for your point above the date can't be 18th.
I still don't get your fixation with the 18th, nor your determination that it must be exactly 72 hours, rather than the more important fact of three days and three nights, and that scripture also states He was raised on the third day. I am sorry, but I have no way to get to the 18th in anything you have proposed. The weekly Sabbath MUST occur after the High Sabbath.

Finally to respond to this "From the Dead Sea Scroll’s perspective, Genesis 1: 14-19 indicates that the first discernable night and day cycle on Earth occurred on the fourth day of creation week. Thus starting the year on this day fixes the weekly Sabbaths for the year as indicated in their solar calendar."
That may be the Dead Sea Scrolls perspective. I don't know as I haven't read them. However I can tell you immediately that is rubbish. I am not talking about the connection between Saturday and Sabbath. I am talking about the fact that God rested on the seventh day which was the Sabbath. Therefore the seventh day is always the Sabbath. This is scriptural. This is even the reason given as to why the Sabbath is holy. So if you wish to argue that days were only called days from the fourth day is immaterial to the fact that the Sabbath is the seventh day. I also don't see the relevance to this discussion. What is relevant here is that there wasn't a Sabbath during the week after Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a colt.

Michael John
Apr 21st 2013, 09:07 AM
In fact due to the distances travelled from Bethany each day, they also couldn't have been Sabbaths.

The false lunar calendar is reset to a Sabbath at the start of every month ! The 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th are also weekly Sabbaths. I.e. every month will have two Sabbaths immediately after each other or with the occasional 30th day in-between !

In any solar calendar that fixes the weekly Sabbaths to the same days every year, like you and the Dead Sea Scroll’s do, there will be a 7 day weekly Sabbath cycle, but because of the total 365¼ days, an annual resetting of the calendar is necessary.

This agrees with Exodus 12:2 - “This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.”

For the 1st Abib to be the beginning of the year every year, and the Sabbaths to be fixed every Abib, the calendar has to be reset every year !

In the Dead Sea Scroll’s calendar the Equinox is the last day of the year, and the 1st Abib is the beginning of the year on the 4th day of the creation week.

Three days later is the Sabbath, followed by consecutive weekly Sabbaths until the end of the year. Every 4th year the extra leap day automatically occurs the day before the Spring Equinox.

Is your calendar any better than this ? ?

If the 1st Abib did fall on the 1st day of the week, as you would presumably like to have it, then the Preparation Day 14th Abib would be a weekly Sabbath day ! ! ! We know that this cannot be !

Regarding the 11th, 12th and 13th Abib, you say:

Finally if you take the Daniel 9:27 as the week, then if it starts on the 10th which is when He rode into Jerusalem, it finishes on the 17th NOT the 18th.

Bethany was only 2 miles from Jerusalem. What Biblical law forbade all inhabitants outside a radius of 2 miles from the Temple in Jerusalem, from worshiping there every Sabbath day ? Christ stayed with Lazarus in Bethany, did Lazarus and his family never attend the Sabbath in the Temple ?

Joshua and his troops marched around Jericho daily for 7 consecutive days, and on the 7th day they marched around the city 7 times ! (Joshua 6: 6-16).

So this shows that any of these three days that He taught in the Temple, the 11th, 12th and 13th, could easily have been a Sabbath !

You already agreed however, that the 10th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 17th, 20th and 21st couldn’t be weekly Sabbaths.

On the 9th, to get from His hidden place in the wilderness, Christ travelled a much greater distance than from Bethany to the Temple, so on your grounds the 9th also couldn’t be a Sabbath !

Also, on your grounds again, the Bible does not state that this 9th day when He arrived in Bethany was a Sabbath !

Also, He did not teach in the synagogue or Temple on this 9th day, as His custom was on the Sabbath !

So if the 9th couldn’t be a weekly Sabbath, then the 16th also couldn’t be a weekly Sabbath !

This again leaves us with only 2 day unaccounted for within the Feast of Unleavened Bread:

THE 18TH AND 19TH.

THEREFORE THE 18TH HAS TO BE THE WEEKLY SABBATH AND THE 19TH HAS TO BE THE OMER !

H A L L E L U I A H ! ! !

You say:

I don't see this week fitting into Dan 9:27 for lots of reasons, but for your point above the date can't be 18th.


If you go back and check, I said that this week was from the 11th to the 17th, between the 10th and the 18th. Misquoting me doesn’t make me wrong, it makes you wrong !

I said “Surly the 11th to the 17th is the non calendar seven day “week” of Daniel 9:27” !

The Lamb was selected on the 10th by popular demand, and rode into Jerusalem on a donkey. The next seven days was the week/period of seven days of Daniel 9:27 -

“And he shall
confirm the covenant with many
for one week:
( a non calendar week - week ═ period of sevens. i.e. the seven days from the 11th. to 17th. Abib – between selecting the Passover lamb and the resurrection ! )
and in the midst of the week
( i.e. the 4th. of these 7 days: the 14th. Abib !)
he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation
to cease . . .” (Daniel 9: 27)

I.e. In the middle fourth day, 14th Abib, of this seven day period/week, Christ was the last and final sacrifice/oblation.

This whole seven day period “confirms the covenant”:

• The three full days and nights (72 hours) in the tomb as part of the sign of Jonah.
• The seven-day/weeks 4th day or 14th Abib middle day He was “cut off”/crucified/sacrificed.
• The three days He taught in the Temple after expelling the traders, the 11th, 12th and 13th.

This period makes up a full non calendar period of 7 full days and nights (168 hours), and confirms the 72 hours of three full days and three full nights in the tomb !

Why do you have a problem with any possible precision in time by the Creator ?

Michael John
Apr 21st 2013, 09:13 AM
Sorry, I dont know how to use this quoting system properly and have mixed up my reply with quoting Vakeros.

Please be patient and I will re post it shortly.

In the meantime try and unravel the thread. Thanks

Michael John
Apr 21st 2013, 09:19 AM
The false lunar calendar is reset to a Sabbath at the start of every month ! The 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th are also weekly Sabbaths. I.e. every month will have two Sabbaths immediately after each other or with the occasional 30th day in-between !

In any solar calendar that fixes the weekly Sabbaths to the same days every year, like you and the Dead Sea Scroll’s do, there will be a 7 day weekly Sabbath cycle, but because of the total 365¼ days, an annual resetting of the calendar is necessary.

This agrees with Exodus 12:2 - “This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.”

For the 1st Abib to be the beginning of the year every year, and the Sabbaths to be fixed every Abib, the calendar has to be reset every year !

In the Dead Sea Scroll’s calendar the Equinox is the last day of the year, and the 1st Abib is the beginning of the year on the 4th day of the creation week.

Three days later is the Sabbath, followed by consecutive weekly Sabbaths until the end of the year. Every 4th year the extra leap day automatically occurs the day before the Spring Equinox.

Is your calendar any better than this ? ?

If the 1st Abib did fall on the 1st day of the week, as you would presumably like to have it, then the Preparation Day 14th Abib would be a weekly Sabbath day ! ! ! We know that this cannot be !

Regarding the 11th, 12th and 13th Abib,

you say:

“In fact due to the distances travelled from Bethany each day, they also couldn't have been Sabbaths.”

Bethany was only 2 miles from Jerusalem. What Biblical law forbade all inhabitants outside a radius of 2 miles from the Temple in Jerusalem, from worshiping there every Sabbath day ? Christ stayed with Lazarus in Bethany, did Lazarus and his family never attend the Sabbath in the Temple ?

Joshua and his troops marched around Jericho daily for 7 consecutive days, and on the 7th day they marched around the city 7 times ! (Joshua 6: 6-16).


So this shows that any of these three days that He taught in the Temple, the 11th, 12th and 13th, could easily have been a Sabbath !

You already agreed however, that the 10th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 17th, 20th and 21st couldn’t be weekly Sabbaths.

On the 9th, to get from His hidden place in the wilderness, Christ travelled a much greater distance than from Bethany to the Temple, so on your grounds the 9th also couldn’t be a Sabbath !

Also, on your grounds again, the Bible does not state that this 9th day when He arrived in Bethany was a Sabbath !

Also, He did not teach in the synagogue or Temple on this 9th day, as His custom was on the Sabbath !

So if the 9th couldn’t be a weekly Sabbath, then the 16th also couldn’t be a weekly Sabbath !

This again leaves us with only 2 day unaccounted for within the Feast of Unleavened Bread:

THE 18TH AND 19TH.

THEREFORE THE 18TH HAS TO BE THE WEEKLY SABBATH AND THE 19TH HAS TO BE THE OMER !

H A L L E L U I A H ! ! !


You say:

“Finally if you take the Daniel 9:27 as the week, then if it starts on the 10th which is when He rode into Jerusalem, it finishes on the 17th NOT the 18th.”

If you go back and check, I said that this week was from the 11th to the 17th, between the 10th and the 18th. Misquoting me doesn’t make me wrong, it makes you wrong !

I said:

“Surly the 11th to the 17th is the non calendar seven day “week” of Daniel 9:27” !

The Lamb was selected on the 10th by popular demand, and rode into Jerusalem on a donkey. The next seven days was the week/period of seven days of Daniel 9:27 -

“And he shall
confirm the covenant with many
for one week:
( a non calendar week - week ═ period of sevens. i.e. the seven days from the 11th. to 17th. Abib – between selecting the Passover lamb and the resurrection ! )
and in the midst of the week
( i.e. the 4th. of these 7 days: the 14th. Abib !)
heshall cause thesacrifice and the oblation
to cease . . .”(Daniel 9: 27)

I.e. In the middle fourth day, 14th Abib, of this seven day period/week, Christ was the last and final sacrifice/oblation.

This whole seven day period “confirms the covenant”:



The three full days and nights (72 hours) in the tomb as part of the sign of Jonah.
The seven-day/weeks 4th day or 14th Abib middle day He was “cut off”/crucified/sacrificed.
The three days He taught in the Temple after expelling the traders, the 11th, 12th and 13th.


This period makes up a full non calendar period of 7 full days and nights (168 hours), and confirms the 72 hours of three full days and three full nights in the tomb !

Why do you have a problem with any possible precision in time by the Creator ?

Vakeros
Apr 21st 2013, 02:19 PM
Daniel 9 talks about 70 weeks. Are all 70 weeks of days? Or are they years?
2nd Daniel 9:27 is very clearly absolutely nothing to do with Jesus death or resurrection. Read the verse and you see, no connections at all. Well apart from one minor one which is that Jesus died on the 4th day of the week (the middle). You however deny the ONE thing that connects the prophecy with that week. You have Jesus dying on the 3rd day of the week. The Sabbath you have as the 11th. So first day of your week is 12th, 2nd day 13th, 3rd day 14th.
The first day of the week is always the first day of the week. It is ALWAYS the day AFTER the weekly Sabbath.
I have already demonstrated that it is impossible for Jesus to be raised from the dead on the 18th. It won't fit for your 72 hours, nor for 3 days and 3 nights. Jesus was NOT raised on the Sabbath. We know this from the Gospel accounts that the women went at dawn. Therefore this is midway through a day which started the evening before. It is also the Omer day. We know this with the date of Pentecost. Omer day is always the day AFTER the weekly Sabbath.
So if Jesus rose on the 18th then the Sabbath was the 17th, which makes the 10th a Sabbath. This we agree is impossible.
If you say that 11th was the Sabbath, though Jesus did not teach in the synagogue that day; Though He travelled further than the allowed distance (NOT Biblically but according to tradition which holds 3/4 mile as the maximum distance to travel) for a Sabbath; Though NOT a single gospel writer mentions the Sabbath during that week until it is mentioned as being after His death, and before His resurrection. Then this makes the 18th a Sabbath, which means He rose on the 19th, which was the Omer day, So Jesus as dead from 3pm 14th until after the end of the 18th 6pm, which is clearly more than 72 hours, more like 99 hours.
Both the High Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath occur after His death. These are clearly the 15th for the High Sabbath and the next must be the 16th. It can't be the 17th as Weekly Sabbath, because of the 10th not being a Sabbath.
Sorry, but the ONLY solution that fits the known facts from the Gospels is that Jesus came to Jerusalem on 10th and died on 14th and rose on the 17th.
Also I never said Jesus came in from the wilderness on the 9th. He was already quite close to Bethany, travelling from Jericho when He stopped on the 9th, possibly in Emmaus. Then travelled on the 10th in the evening a few miles to Bethany, arriving for supper.
All the rest of your points about when a month starts is irrelevant to this discussion. God knows His timing. He has told us in His word.

Michael John
Apr 21st 2013, 11:00 PM
Vakeros, you are proving very slippery again:

“week” is a period of seven days or years, and any continuous seven days, not only a calendar week !

I.e. “for seven days” does not necessarily mean from the first day of the week to the last day of the week. Therefore “for one week” also means “for one period of seven days/years” or ”for seven days/years”.

In the Old Testament “week” occurs in three verses.
In Genesis 29:27,28 the “week” refers in both instances to “a period of seven” years !
In Daniel 9:27 the “week” perfectly fits the crucifixion week of days when Christ “shall
confirm the covenant with many for one week”. This verse refers to Christ !
Remember I said:

“Surly the 11th to the 17th is the non calendar seven day “week” of Daniel 9:27”

Why do you try and deny/hide that I said this ?

So in this non calendar “seven day period/week” from the 11th to the 17th, the “midst of the week” is therefore the fourth day, which is the 14th !

In the New Testament “week” can also mean plural “Sabbaths”, as discussed previously. All the references to “week” soon after the resurrection at the tomb, have the insertion “day” in italics as repeatedly mentioned before. This insertion of “day” and the word “week” instead of plural ”Sabbaths” deliberately distorts the meaning of the verse to favor a Sun-day first day of the week calendar !

Sunset 14th, to sunset 15th, to sunset 16th to sunset 17th is exactly 72 hours of three nights and three days to the second beginning the 17th, so you have not “already demonstrated that it is impossible for Jesus to be raised from the dead on the 18th. It won't fit for your 72 hours, nor for 3 days and 3 nights” ( Slippery, very slippery ! ).

This was the beginning of the “first of the Sabbaths”, not “first day of the week”, a possible alternative interpretation previously discussed and conceded by you. The Bible doesn’t say Christ rose at sunrise, only that He was already risen ! This day was the “first of the Sabbaths” counting to Pentecost, so it was not the Omer, which would have to be the next day after this “first of the Sabbaths”. This 18th day was the Sabbath so the 11th was the previous Sabbath !

No matter how many times you twist it, this all works out !

On the 11th Christ did teach in the Temple, after first expelling all the traders !
On the 12th He continued in the Temple !
On the 13th He continued in the Temple !
Any of these three days could have been a Sabbath !
You concede that He was travelling on the 9th, and therefore it is far less likely that the 9th was a Sabbath, besides the fact that no Gospels say the 9th was your Sabbath !

Christ did not necessarily honor the “traditions of men”. He demonstrated this repeatedly. If He was staying in Bethany how could anybody there attend the Sabbath Temple service, even on the Sabbath if any tradition forbade the short 2 mile walk ! ! ! No wonder Christ didn’t honor “tradition”. How far is your place of worship from your home and do you attend any service on the Sabbath ! ! ! Weren't many of these “traditions” Pharisee traditions, and wouldn’t only strict members of this sect bother to obey them ? Christ was not a member of the Pharisees ! Are you a Pharisee - they were very slippery ? ? ?

I said: “On the 9th, to get from His hidden place in the wilderness, Christ travelled
a much greater distance than from Bethany to the Temple, so on your grounds the 9th also couldn’t be a Sabbath !”

On the 8th Christ was in Ephraim, “a city about a short day's journey from Jerusalem” (Strong’s #2187):

“Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.
And the Jews’ passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves.
Then sought they for Jesus, and spake among themselves, as they stood in the temple, What think ye, that he will not come to the feast?
Now both the chief priests and the Pharisees had given a commandment, that, if any man knew where he were, he should shew it, that they might take him.
Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.” (John 12:53-John 12:1)

Christ therefore left Ephraim sometime in the morning of the 9th, arriving in the late afternoon and having supper after sunset in Bethany on the beginning of the 10th. If the 9th therefore wasn’t a Sabbath, then the 16th also was not a Sabbath ! ! !

When and how Abib starts is very relevant to what day of the week the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th Abib falls on, and any other day of Abib or the whole year for that matter !

Vakeros, although you showed that my original process of elimination logic was flawed, this thread has been fruitful in eliminating the 16th Abib as a Sabbath, and if Christ rose at the start of the “first of the Sabbaths”, as discussed after not more than 72 hours in the tomb, then only the 18th Abib still qualifies as that Sabbath Day ! ! ! The Omer on the following 19th day then starts the Pentecost count ! ! ! Thank you !

I have been very patient and longsuffering with all the slippery twisting and rending of what you say I said. You have been continually throwing dust in the our eyes ! I will leave it now for any other viewers to analyse and decide if I have made a strong case or not. However, you are welcome to disclose to us how your calendar starts and works in fully explaining these issues.

Vakeros
Apr 22nd 2013, 04:19 PM
I will try to only deal with one point at a time otherwise things stretch too far.
Let us deal with just one aspect for now, when did Jesus arrive in Bethany. This seems straightforward or is it?
You put above that Jesus was in Ephraim on the 8th. I am not sure how you deduced that. We can see that in John's Gospel it is the last place mentioned before He came to Bethany. So let's accept your statement for now and take it that Jesus was in Ephraim on the 8th.
This is a place a short day's journey away from Jerusalem. So let's see what happens if we have Jesus leave Ephraim on the 8th and arrive just after 6pm for the start of the 9th. The 9th being according to my calculations a Sabbath.
Now if Jesus left at lunchtime of the 8th, He could arrive just after 6pm on the 9th having traveled about 22 miles. This has Him walking about 4 miles per hour. If He would have started after breakfast, maybe stopped for a couple of hours for lunch in the shade, then he would have been walking a more leisurely 3 miles per hour. What is important is that when the Sabbath starts He isn't far from Bethany in order to complete His journey within Sabbath requirements.
Note it is clear from John 12:2 that He had traveled through the day to arrive in time for the evening meal. We know He arrived in Bethany on the 9th because it is the 10th that He went to Jerusalem (which is the next day) and because He came to Bethany 6 days before the Passover.
We know further that He arrived in the evening as He was given supper.
He couldn't have arrived in Bethany on the evening 8th unless a) we reject your statement, b) we reject John 12:1 which states He came to Bethany 6 days before the Passover. Of course if He had arrived in Bethany on the 8th then He would have ridden into Jerusalem on a colt on the 9th!
Now can you see clearly that Jesus didn't travel on the Sabbath, apart from the short distance left of His journey from Ephraim, having walked through the day of the 8th?
He rests in Bethany with friends on the 9th for the Sabbath and then on the 10th goes to Jerusalem. Note how many others did something similar (John 11:55), but they went all the way to Jerusalem. Jesus didn't!

Vakeros
Apr 22nd 2013, 04:29 PM
Sunset 14th, to sunset 15th, to sunset 16th to sunset 17th is exactly 72 hours of three nights and three days to the second beginning the 17th, so you have not “already demonstrated that it is impossible for Jesus to be raised from the dead on the 18th. It won't fit for your 72 hours, nor for 3 days and 3 nights” ( Slippery, very slippery ! ).
Sorry, but Jesus didn't die at sunset - He died at 3pm. He was buried before sunset. Nor did He rise just before sunset for your exact 72 hours. Jesus said 3 days and 3 nights. You try to change it to "exactly 3 nights and 3 days." And you ignore He also said on the third day He would rise again. You have Him rising on the 4th night.
Note also sunset of the 14th is actually the start of the 15th. So it is 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th according to timing. In addition you have the guards lying like dead men (Matt 28:4) yet if this was in the evening there would have been a relief crew who would have found them before the women went there in the morning, yet they only went to the priests after the women left (Matt 28:11).

Vakeros
Apr 22nd 2013, 04:52 PM
“week” is a period of seven days or years, and any continuous seven days, not only a calendar week ! I.e. “for seven days” does not necessarily mean from the first day of the week to the last day of the week. Therefore “for one week” also means “for one period of seven days/years” or ”for seven days/years”.
In the Old Testament “week” occurs in three verses.
In Genesis 29:27,28 the “week” refers in both instances to “a period of seven” years !
In Daniel 9:27 the “week” perfectly fits the crucifixion week of days when Christ “shall
confirm the covenant with many for one week”. This verse refers to Christ !
Remember I said:
“Surly the 11th to the 17th is the non calendar seven day “week” of Daniel 9:27”
Why do you try and deny/hide that I said this ?
So in this non calendar “seven day period/week” from the 11th to the 17th, the “midst of the week” is therefore the fourth day, which is the 14th !.
I don't deny you said that the 11th to the 17th is the non calendar seven day “week” of Daniel 9:27. What I said is - No it isn't. I might posts a whole load of reasons why it isn't, but for now we need to look at when the 7 days should start.
Firstly, 10th Abib is the start of everything. NOT the 11th. 10th is the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem. The 10th is the day of selecting the lamb. If you try to tie it into Dan 9:27, then the 10th would be the day that the covenant is confirmed.
Secondly, according to your timetable of Jesus rising on the 18th then that is outside the week.
Thirdly, within those 7 days you have a Weekly Sabbath and a High Sabbath. We agree that the 10th is NOT a WS. You have yet to show me that 11th, 12th or 13th are a Sabbath as none of them are called such. Also note that during this final week, the Pharisees etc were trying to get some grounds to accuse Jesus. Yet whereas we have other times when they accused the disciples of breaking the Sabbath, no such accusation is made during this time!
Fourthly, Jesus was raised on the firstfruits festival which is the day after the WS. Now if you have the 18th as WS then that means you make Jesus be raised on the 19th. Otherwise you have Jesus raised the day before the Omer on a WS and at the start of the Sabbath at that. This would mean that the women go to the tomb approximately 36 hours after He was raised from the dead - What?!?

Michael John
Apr 24th 2013, 09:39 PM
Vakeros, You have still not shown the Biblical Law that forbids even Christ, the “Lord of the Sabbath” from travelling two miles from Bethany to the Temple on the Sabbath !

Was this restriction merely one of the many Pharisee “traditions of men” which they tried to enforce on members of their sect and others, to empower them in the Synagogues in opposition to the Sadducees who controlled the Temple ?

People in Bethany who obeyed this ‘rule’ for example, would be forced to attend the nearest Pharisee controlled Synagogue rather than the Sadducee controlled Temple only two miles away !

This is the timeline from the 8th Abib to the 21st Abib:

• Christ is in Ephraim 7 days before Passover.
• Christ leaves Ephraim in the morning of the 9th, 6 days before Passover and arrives in Bethany late on the 9th.
• Christ has supper starting the 10th or before sunset on the 9th.
• 10th Sometime after sunrise He starts His ride into Jerusalem on the donkey.
• 11th He teaches in the Temple on the weekly Sabbath.
• 12th He teaches in the Temple.
• 13th He teaches in the Temple.
• 14th after sunset they attend His “Last Supper” (not Passover Feast ).
• 14th His arrest, trial and crucifixion terminating in the tomb burial at sunset ending the 14th.
• 15th High Day Passover Feast and 1st day Feast of Unleavened Bread. 24 hours in tomb.
• 16th and 2nd day Feast of Unleavened Bread. 48 hours in tomb.
• 17th and 3rd day Feast of Unleavened Bread. 72 hours in tomb.
• 18th Abib weekly Sabbath. At sunrise Christ is revealed as raised already. 4th day FUB.
• 19th Abib Omer after the weekly Sabbath. 5th day Feast of Unleavened Bread.
• 20th and 6th day Feast of Unleavened Bread.
• 21st High Day and 7th day Feast of Unleavened Bread.


Christ was in the Temple on the 11th, 12th and 13th as His custom was on a Sabbath, and He was facing constant criticism during this period. Any of these days could have been a Sabbath ! You are unable to show that the 9th and 16th were weekly Sabbaths !

The whole of the 15th, 16th and 17th Abib are three days (72 hours), not four days ! You repeatedly play a number game at every opportunity to add an extra day to what I say !

There would be no relief guards changing over at the tomb at sunrise on the 18th, because their three day mandate expired at that point ! The woman knew that they would remove the seal and leave at this sunrise !

Christ was not “raised on the firstfruits festival”: they found that He had risen already when they went to the tomb on the 18th “first of the Sabbaths”, not on the “first day of the week” corrupted translation !

Because the Dead Sea Scroll’s start the year on the 4th day of the week you recently objected to any possibility that the first day of the year could be any other day than the 1st day of the week !

If you are so adamant that the 9th and 16th is a Sabbath, that would make the 2nd Abib a weekly Sabbath as well. This brings us back to the 1st Abib the day before, as the start of the year on the 6th day of the week !

Why is it good for you, but not for the Dead Sea Scroll’s or me ? ? ?

Logically, if the 14th Abib is the working “preparation day” in which the Passover lamb is killed and prepared with everything else required, then the 1st of Abib can never ever be the first day of the Biblical week !

Vakeros, you choose to deliberately confuse the non calendar “week” of Daniel 9:27 with the calendar week of 12th to 18th Abib ! You are probably confusing other viewers, what is your agenda ?

The “week” of Daniel 9:27 is a prophesy of Christ, “Lord of the Sabbath”. It is a non calendar “period of seven” days starting on the weekly Sabbath of the 11th Abib, alluding to His crucifixion when He is “cut off” in the “midst” of this “week” on the 4th day (which is the 14th Abib when the Passover lamb is killed), and terminating these seven days with His resurrection - still as “Lord of the Sabbath”, starting the next weekly Sabbath !

Vakeros, both you and LandShark definitely know that “the sign of the prophet Jonas” is “three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12: 38–40).

The three hours dead on the cross is therefore obviously not included in this “sign” at all - “inclusive counting” or not ! ! ! You twist and rend this into the 72 hours in the tomb to discredit what I say:

• Christ rose “in” three days, and at the same instant “after” three days, of “three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” !

• These three full days are part of the seven full days of the “period of seven” days / “week” of Daniel 9:27 !

• A “week” / “period of seven” days is a full seven days and full seven nights: a full seven 24hr days totaling an exact 168 hour “week” !

• So three full 24hour days of this seven full 24 hour day “week”
= 3/7th’s of 168 hours, which = 72 hours “in the heart of the earth” ! ! !

Christ, the Lamb, confirmed the covenant in these seven days by:

• His teaching in the Temple for three days.
• His trial, conviction and execution for “blasphemy” on the 4th day “midst” of this “week”.
• His sign of three days and nights in the tomb, culminating in His resurrection.

This confirmed Who He Is, and allows Him to re-marry both the divorced House of Israel and the widowed House of Judah, without breaking the Law concerning marriages: This is the covenant He, the Bridegroom, confirms in Daniel 9:27 - the new marriage covenant of Jeremiah 31: 31–34 and Isaiah 59: 19–21 !

This was a “period of seven” days, a “week” !

This all occurred in the seven days from the 11th to the 17th, culminating in His resurrection. He walked out of the “heart of the earth” at the end of the last day and the start of the Sabbath, in the same timeframe that His body entered the tomb three days and three nights before.

Is that impossible for Him !

On the 10th the people chose Him, He did not choose Himself ! Therefore His confirming the covenant started on the 11th Abib Sabbath when He started teaching in the Temple about issues pertaining to the covenant.

This “week” / “period of seven” days, started on the weekly Sabbath and ended with the resurrection of the “Lord of the Sabbath” starting the next weekly Sabbath ! ! !

He was “cut off” in the midst of the non calendar week of Daniel 9:27, and He revealed Himself in the midst of the non calendar week Feast of Unleavened Bread as already risen from the dead ! ! !

Vakeros
Apr 27th 2013, 07:48 PM
Vakeros, You have still not shown the Biblical Law that forbids even Christ, the “Lord of the Sabbath” from travelling two miles from Bethany to the Temple on the Sabbath !
Was this restriction merely one of the many Pharisee “traditions of men” which they tried to enforce on members of their sect and others, to empower them in the Synagogues in opposition to the Sadducees who controlled the Temple ?
People in Bethany who obeyed this ‘rule’ for example, would be forced to attend the nearest Pharisee controlled Synagogue rather than the Sadducee controlled Temple only two miles away !
On the Sabbath you would go to your local synagogue. The temple was for religious festivals and other special occasions i.e birth/circumcision, thanksgiving etc. Plus people would meet everyday in the temple, unlike the synagogue. Not really relevant to this discussion.


This is the timeline from the 8th Abib to the 21st Abib:
• Christ is in Ephraim 7 days before Passover.
• Christ leaves Ephraim in the morning of the 9th, 6 days before Passover and arrives in Bethany late on the 9th.
• Christ has supper starting the 10th or before sunset on the 9th.
No, Jesus didn't have supper on the 10th. He came to Bethany 6 days before the Passover feast. Supper was the 9th. I can see your trying to fit this in by having the meal before the new day starts. However it was known as supper or the evening meal for a reason - it was in the evening, which is in the new day. However, we can leave this for now. What we see is that nothing put here proves that the 9th CAN'T be a Sabbath.


• 10th Sometime after sunrise He starts His ride into Jerusalem on the donkey.
• 11th He teaches in the Temple on the weekly Sabbath.
Except nothing in scripture shows this to be the case. Sabbath's are often highlighted, but what is more important is that this fional week is monitored completely and no-one notes it was the Sabbath.


• 12th He teaches in the Temple.
• 13th He teaches in the Temple.
• 14th after sunset they attend His “Last Supper” (not Passover Feast ).
• 14th His arrest, trial and crucifixion terminating in the tomb burial at sunset ending the 14th.
His burial was on the 14th. We are clearly told He was buried on the Day of Preparation. It is close to sunset, but still the 14th. (Matt 27:57-62, Luke 23:50-54, John 19:38-42)

• 15th High Day Passover Feast and 1st day Feast of Unleavened Bread. 24 hours in tomb.
• 16th and 2nd day Feast of Unleavened Bread. 48 hours in tomb.
• 17th and 3rd day Feast of Unleavened Bread. 72 hours in tomb.
So do you have Christ raised on the 17th just before sunset, to be exactly 72 hours? Do you have Him raised on the 18th at sunset, so more than 72 hours?

• 18th Abib weekly Sabbath. At sunrise Christ is revealed as raised already. 4th day FUB.
Sorry, but lots of problems with this.
The first is if Jesus was raised on the 18th at sunset, then why wasn't he revealed for a further 12 hours. It is clear he was only revealed when the tomb was opened and the guards fell as though dead, which was at sunrise. What sort of sign is it if it isn't even seen?
In addition you say this is the Sabbath. The women wouldn't have come to the tomb on the Sabbath (Luke 23:56). They would have come the day after the Sabbath, so the 16th.
Also the guards wouldn't have been there if He had been in the tomb more than 3 days. This is the reason you said why the women wouldn't have gone. Yet Matt 28:4, the guards are still there.
Also it is very clear from every gospel account that it is the day after the Sabbath(s) that the women went there. That word NEVER means ON the Sabbath. Yet you have them going there on a Sabbath. Completely wrong.

• 19th Abib Omer after the weekly Sabbath. 5th day Feast of Unleavened Bread.
• 20th and 6th day Feast of Unleavened Bread.
• 21st High Day and 7th day Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Christ was in the Temple on the 11th, 12th and 13th as His custom was on a Sabbath, and He was facing constant criticism during this period. Any of these days could have been a Sabbath ! You are unable to show that the 9th and 16th were weekly Sabbaths !
I have shown that the 9th could be a weekly Sabbath. I have also shown that none of those 3 days are mentioned as being Sabbath.

The whole of the 15th, 16th and 17th Abib are three days (72 hours), not four days ! You repeatedly play a number game at every opportunity to add an extra day to what I say !
No, you brought up the logic of numbers. I like numbers. However Jesus died on 14th and was buried on that day. You are trying to make it exactly 72 hours, whereas Jesus said 3 days and nights, which doesn't necessarily equate to 72 hours. In addition I have given questions above, because do you count the fiunal day as the 17th or the 18th (sunset)?

There would be no relief guards changing over at the tomb at sunrise on the 18th, because their three day mandate expired at that point ! The woman knew that they would remove the seal and leave at this sunrise !
Highlighted the fallacy in this as there mandate would only expire at sunrise if it started at sunrise. Where does scripture show this. Also I am sure the Pharisees could count. As soon as 3 days were completely up they would have announced that Jesus lied, that He didn't rise from the dead within the 72 hours period, yet you have Him revealed only after 84 hours. Very strange! In addition the guards wouldn't individually have done a full 3 day stint but would have been relieved in 3 or 4 stints during a day.


Christ was not “raised on the firstfruits festival”: they found that He had risen already when they went to the tomb on the 18th “first of the Sabbaths”, not on the “first day of the week” corrupted translation !
You have Jesus raised BEFORE the firstfruits!?! Then you confuse your translation. The phrase doesn't mean first of Sabbaths. If it did then He would be in the tomb for another 6 days. The first Sabbath for Pentecost is the Sabbath AFTER firstfruits. Lev 23:15 count off from the Omer 7 full Sabbaths. Lev 23:16 "Count off fifty days up to the day after the seventh Sabbath..."
The day before the Omer isn't part of the firstfruits.


Because the Dead Sea Scroll’s start the year on the 4th day of the week you recently objected to any possibility that the first day of the year could be any other day than the 1st day of the week !
No, I said this was irrelevant. Let's say the 4th day of the week is the start of the year. The Sabbath is then on the 4th and so you get your Sabbath on the 11th. However if the new year started on the 2nd day of the week then the Sabbath was on the 6th and 13th. If it started on the 6th day then the Sabbath is on the 9th and 16th. In other words the day of the year can be different every year.


If you are so adamant that the 9th and 16th is a Sabbath, that would make the 2nd Abib a weekly Sabbath as well. This brings us back to the 1st Abib the day before, as the start of the year on the 6th day of the week !
Why is it good for you, but not for the Dead Sea Scroll’s or me ? ? ?
Logically, if the 14th Abib is the working “preparation day” in which the Passover lamb is killed and prepared with everything else required, then the 1st of Abib can never ever be the first day of the Biblical week !
And...


Vakeros, you choose to deliberately confuse the non calendar “week” of Daniel 9:27 with the calendar week of 12th to 18th Abib ! You are probably confusing other viewers, what is your agenda ?
The “week” of Daniel 9:27 is a prophesy of Christ, “Lord of the Sabbath”. It is a non calendar “period of seven” days starting on the weekly Sabbath of the 11th Abib, alluding to His crucifixion when He is “cut off” in the “midst” of this “week” on the 4th day (which is the 14th Abib when the Passover lamb is killed), and terminating these seven days with His resurrection - still as “Lord of the Sabbath”, starting the next weekly Sabbath !
I already showed you a reason why the two aren't connected. I could show you a lot more.


Vakeros, both you and LandShark definitely know that “the sign of the prophet Jonas” is “three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12: 38–40).
The three hours dead on the cross is therefore obviously not included in this “sign” at all - “inclusive counting” or not ! ! ! You twist and rend this into the 72 hours in the tomb to discredit what I say:
Why is it not included? You say obviously, the question is what does in the heart of the earth mean? Is it referring to His body or to His soul? I would say soul going to Hades. That is what the OT refers to as the heart of the earth, as does the NT. You seem to mean it was the burial, but then you still are out by a short while. Excpet you leave His resurrection revelation for a further 12 hours, thus the SIGN isn't 3 days and 3 nights, but 4 nights and 3 days!


• Christ rose “in” three days, and at the same instant “after” three days, of “three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” !
Please don't misquote. Jesus said He would rise on the third day.


• These three full days are part of the seven full days of the “period of seven” days / “week” of Daniel 9:27 !
No they are not. Especially according to your timeline which you only start on the 11th and ignore the 10th when He comes, and you extend into the 18th which is the 8th day. Sorry, but that really doesn't fit. You have 9 days trying to fit into 7.


• A “week” / “period of seven” days is a full seven days and full seven nights: a full seven 24hr days totaling an exact 168 hour “week” !
Not linguistically or in common use. It usually means Sunday to Saturday. Some might take it midnight to midnight or 6pm to 6pm when being exact.


• So three full 24hour days of this seven full 24 hour day “week”
= 3/7th’s of 168 hours, which = 72 hours “in the heart of the earth” ! ! !
Except you have him there for 84+ hours.


Christ, the Lamb, confirmed the covenant in these seven days by:
• His teaching in the Temple for three days.
• His trial, conviction and execution for “blasphemy” on the 4th day “midst” of this “week”.
• His sign of three days and nights in the tomb, culminating in His resurrection.
Firstly, why exclude the 10th when He came to Jerusalem and was exclaimed as Saviour? Secondly, how do these tie into the prophecy in Daniel 9:27?


This confirmed Who He Is, and allows Him to re-marry both the divorced House of Israel and the widowed House of Judah, without breaking the Law concerning marriages: This is the covenant He, the Bridegroom, confirms in Daniel 9:27 - the new marriage covenant of Jeremiah 31: 31–34 and Isaiah 59: 19–21 !
This was a “period of seven” days, a “week” !
This all occurred in the seven days from the 11th to the 17th, culminating in His resurrection. He walked out of the “heart of the earth” at the end of the last day and the start of the Sabbath, in the same timeframe that His body entered the tomb three days and three nights before.
Is that impossible for Him !
On the 10th the people chose Him, He did not choose Himself ! Therefore His confirming the covenant started on the 11th Abib Sabbath when He started teaching in the Temple about issues pertaining to the covenant.
This “week” / “period of seven” days, started on the weekly Sabbath and ended with the resurrection of the “Lord of the Sabbath” starting the next weekly Sabbath ! ! !
He was “cut off” in the midst of the non calendar week of Daniel 9:27, and He revealed Himself in the midst of the non calendar week Feast of Unleavened Bread as already risen from the dead ! ! !
You really need to read Dan 9 again. The Messiah is cut off after the 62 weeks. What are the 62 weeks? When were they? Nothing in 9:27 about a Messiah being cut off. It does talk about a covenant being confirmed at the start, which would be the 10th, if any day. Where is the abomination and the desolation and the destruction of the desolator and the destruction of the city and temple? Not in this week. How does this tie into Jesus prophecy in Matt 24?

Fenris
Apr 28th 2013, 12:31 PM
This is the first step to converting people to the false lunar calendar !

What makes you say that the lunar calendar is false?

keck553
Apr 29th 2013, 02:53 PM
What makes you say that the lunar calendar is false?

Let me guess....pagan plot?

RabbiKnife
Apr 29th 2013, 02:57 PM
It's NASA.

They MOVED the moon.

keck553
Apr 29th 2013, 04:47 PM
It's NASA.

They MOVED the moon.

To the seventh house no doubt......

RabbiKnife
Apr 29th 2013, 04:52 PM
To the seventh house no doubt......

.. and Jupiter, aligns with Mars....

(Don't bother me for a while... I've got a groovy thing going on in my head right now. Peace!)

Michael John
Apr 30th 2013, 07:20 PM
Vakeros, once again: you have still not shown the Biblical Law that forbids even Christ, the “Lord of the Sabbath” from travelling two miles from Bethany to the Temple on the Sabbath. This certainly is relevant to this discussion !


I have shown that the 9th could be a weekly Sabbath. I have also shown that none of those 3 days are mentioned as being Sabbath.


Neither is the 9th mentioned as a Sabbath. Although it is also noted in the Gospels, the 9th is not highlighted or noted as a Sabbath ! Nothing proves that the 9th CAN be a Sabbath ! The 11th could just as easily be a weekly Sabbath, especially as, unlike the 9th, Christ is recorded as spending the 11th in the Temple ! Also, as I have said before, the Pharisees could never have succeeded in changing the Omer to the 16th Abib if the 16th Abib was a Sabbath as you suggest ! ! !


No, I said this was irrelevant. Let's say the 4th day of the week is the start of the year. The Sabbath is then on the 4th and so you get your Sabbath on the 11th. However if the new year started on the 2nd day of the week then the Sabbath was on the 6th and 13th. If it started on the 6th day then the Sabbath is on the 9th and 16th. In other words the day of the year can be different every year.

Vakeros, a calendar like this won’t work Biblically. Please show me where we can see an illustration of the calendar you follow and an explanation on how it functions !


No, Jesus didn't have supper on the 10th. He came to Bethany 6 days before the Passover feast. Supper was the 9th. I can see your trying to fit this in by having the meal before the new day starts. However it was known as supper or the evening meal for a reason - it was in the evening, which is in the new day. However, we can leave this for now. What we see is that nothing put here proves that the 9th CAN'T be a Sabbath.

I, and no doubt you also practice a Biblical day change at sunset. If you happen to eat supper just before sunset on the 9th, do you turn back your clock by 24 hours ? ! Or do you just tell people you are eating yesterdays supper ? !

Whether it was just before or just after sunset, it was what we call the evening meal !

In the Old Testament “evening” can mean any time between midday and sunset. In the New Testament “at evening” can also mean before sunset, as I have previously pointed out to you:

‘After Christ appeared to the women near the tomb around sunrise:

“Then the same day at evening <3798> . . .” (John 20:19), Christ again appeared in the late afternoon ! The Biblical “same day” means before sunset !’

So, after arriving in Bethany, Christ could quite easily have had supper on the 9th just before sunset: “the same day at evening” !

I also didn’t misquote: Christ said that He would rise “in three days” (John 2: 19–21), and also “after three days” (Mark 8: 31; Matthew 23: 63). How do you explain this if this period is less than 72 hours ?

The Bible does not say that Christ rose at sunrise when the tomb was opened, but that He was already risen and not there. The women got there early just before sunrise on the “first of the Sabbaths”, yet He was not there because Mark 16:9 says Christ rose even earlier on this “first of the Sabbaths”:

“Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.”
Nightfall at sunset is the earliest you can get !

(Remember you already conceded that this “day” is an insertion, and “week” can be plural “Sabbaths” ! )


It is clear he was only revealed when the tomb was opened and the guards fell as though dead, which was at sunrise. What sort of sign is it if it isn't even seen?

The guards became catatonic with fear at the presence of the angel, who appeared and opened the sealed tomb, not at the appearance of Christ. Nobody actually saw Christ rise or walk out the sealed tomb, and He was only seen later, so according to you this would mean that He hasn’t fulfilled His “sign” proving that He was the Messiah, because He only showed Himself well after He had risen ! ! !

After He exited the tomb / “heart of the earth” Christ has had many hours, days and centuries unaccounted for, and He is also not accountable to us for His movements and whereabouts from the start of the 18th to soon after sunrise on the 18th !

So technically speaking Christ’s body entered the “heart of the earth” at the sunset ending the 14th and starting the 15th. To fulfill both “in” three days and also “after” three days, He rose and exited the tomb at the sunset ending the 17th and starting the 18th weekly Sabbath.

If we can get any 72 hours right millions of times, then surly Christ can get it right once ! ! !

The tomb was later revealed as empty at about sunrise on this 18th weekly Sabbath and Christ, “Lord of the Sabbath”, appeared many times throughout the rest of this “first of the Sabbaths” weekly Sabbath day !

“In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.” Matthew 28:1

Vakeros, you have already conceeded that “sabbath” can be “the interval between two sabbaths”, that “week” can be plural “sabbaths” and did not dispute that the “day” in itallics is an insertion. You did not dispute that this could easily read: ”In the end of the interval between the sabbaths, as it began to dawn toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.” Both Matthew and Mark state this. Luke and John state it was also possibly “the first of the sabbaths”, possibly not “first day of the week” !

The insertion “day” and use of “week” for “Sabbaths” was done to support the resurrection Easter Sunday fallacy !

Christ's body was laid in the tomb at sunset, so Luke 23:55-56 would indicate that they then had the Passover Feast of the 15th Abib. The next morning, still on the High Day Sabbath, they prepared spices and then rested, because the guard by then had already been posted and the seal set. If they can prepare spices on this day, why couldn’t they also apply them to the body - the Passover Feast was already eaten ! Only the guard and seal prevented them from applying the spices to the body. Christ did many things on the Sabbath which the Pharisees disapproved of, why couldn’t these women later go to the tomb on a weekly Sabbath, if the guards mandate was about to expire ? Remember they started their three day watch in the morning of the 15th ! Obviously the guard was changed a number of times over this period, and it would also make sense to continue the guard until sunrise otherwise His disciples could steal the body that night as well and still claim a resurrection the next day !

The weekly Sabbath is the day before the Omer and that weekly Sabbath is the “first of the Sabbaths” after the Passover High Day. The next seven weekly Sabbaths occur before Pentecost which is immediately after the “last of the Sabbaths” so to speak, which occurs on the seventh of Sivan. Including the “first of the Sabbaths” that the Omer follows immediately after, this is a total of eight Sabbaths and Pentecost occurs after the last one, and falling on the eighth of Sivan ! (If you sincerely like figures Vakeros, you should find this 7, 8 pattern interesting !)

Finally, some good things have come out of this thread, but you will no doubt continue to disagree with much of what I say. We seem to be just going around in circles, so I suggest we “agree to disagree” and move on.

Fenris, if you or others wish to see why I say that the lunar calendar is false, I suggest completely and carefully go over “The Temple Calendar” here: http://www.declarethedecree.com/the_temple_calendar.doc

Vakeros, I will have to modify my page on the process of elimination soon.

THANK YOU ALL.

Fenris
Apr 30th 2013, 07:31 PM
"whoever controls the calendar controls the world"? then it goes on for 23 pages...

RabbiKnife
Apr 30th 2013, 07:36 PM
Yeah, me too.

I tried to look for a point, but it seemed pointless.

Liquid Tension
Apr 30th 2013, 07:40 PM
You mean this thread is supposed to have a point??

Fenris
Apr 30th 2013, 08:25 PM
You mean this thread is supposed to have a point??

something about Pharisees and calendars

RabbiKnife
Apr 30th 2013, 08:27 PM
something about Pharisees and calendars

well, at least it wasn't about Sadducees and calendars....

Geez, Louise...

keck553
Apr 30th 2013, 11:13 PM
Its a conspiracy

Liquid Tension
May 1st 2013, 01:05 AM
well, at least it wasn't about Sadducees and calendars....

Geez, Louise...

Yeah, cause that would be sad.......u........see.









<ducking rotten tomatos>

Vakeros
May 5th 2013, 08:12 AM
Vakeros, once again: you have still not shown the Biblical Law that forbids even Christ, the “Lord of the Sabbath” from travelling two miles from Bethany to the Temple on the Sabbath. This certainly is relevant to this discussion !
Can you show any distance as being Biblical law NOT to walk? Exo 16:29 tells us a person is to stay where he is on the Sabbath. Travelling from one town to another is definitely leaving your place. Originally this word place was interpreted as tent or house. This was then later understood to mean town or city.
Acts 1:12 tells us that the Mount of Olives was a Sabbath's day walk from the city. Bethany is a lot further than this.


Neither is the 9th mentioned as a Sabbath. Although it is also noted in the Gospels, the 9th is not highlighted or noted as a Sabbath ! Nothing proves that the 9th CAN be a Sabbath ! The 11th could just as easily be a weekly Sabbath, especially as, unlike the 9th, Christ is recorded as spending the 11th in the Temple !
He was recorded as being in the temple on the 10th and 12th and 13th - are they ALL Sabbath's as well?


Also, as I have said before, the Pharisees could never have succeeded in changing the Omer to the 16th Abib if the 16th Abib was a Sabbath as you suggest ! ! !
Not sure why you put this. The Omer was the 17th Abib. I have never suggested changing the Omer to the 16th. Why do you have the Omer as the 16th?


Vakeros, a calendar like this won’t work Biblically. Please show me where we can see an illustration of the calendar you follow and an explanation on how it functions !
I don't see why not.


I, and no doubt you also practice a Biblical day change at sunset. If you happen to eat supper just before sunset on the 9th, do you turn back your clock by 24 hours ? ! Or do you just tell people you are eating yesterdays supper ? ! Whether it was just before or just after sunset, it was what we call the evening meal !
No an evening meal was exactly that, a meal in the evening. The evening starts after sunset (6 pm). Before that is the afternoon.


In the Old Testament “evening” can mean any time between midday and sunset. In the New Testament “at evening” can also mean before sunset, as I have previously pointed out to you:
‘After Christ appeared to the women near the tomb around sunrise:
“Then the same day at evening <3798> . . .” (John 20:19), Christ again appeared in the late afternoon ! The Biblical “same day” means before sunset !’
I see your confusion here. We know from the cross-reference of this verse in Luke 23:29 "Stay with us, for it is nearly evening, the day is almost over" that these two disciples knew when the new day started - it was evening. Yet they travelled back from Emmaus 7 miles approximately and got back to the eleven before this evening meal of John 20:19. This is confirmed by Mark 16:13 and 14 where the two return and tell the disciples before Jesus appears to them.
Now this is a very important and yet minor point that is sometimes overlooked. What time frames are each writer using. Mark 15:33 "at the sixth hour...until the ninth hour" This we understand to mean midday to 3pm. The sixth hour being counted from sunrise (6am). John 19:14 says "it was the day of preparation...about the sixth hour." Here the sixth hour isn't counted from sunrise as it would mean that Jesus was being with Pilate at the same time He was on the cross in darkness. What we are shown again by cross referencing is that this sixth hour in John is counted from midnight, so about sunrise Pilate condemns Jesus to be led away to be crucified. So John has the day start at midnight and NOT sunrise. So for John, his days are like ours, starting at midnight and ending at 11:59:59pm. This then agrees with the other gospels that have Jesus been raised on the first day, seen at sunrise of this first day, met by the two on the first day, stops at Emmaus on the first day. Evening comes and they break bread and Jesus disappears. He is then seen on that same day in Jerusalem after the two disciples get back to Jerusalem that same evening. Sorry, but superficial reading would accept what you say, but looking into the details and understanding events show that Jesus appeared on what you might call the second day, but John puts as the evening of the same day.


So, after arriving in Bethany, Christ could quite easily have had supper on the 9th just before sunset: “the same day at evening” !
No, as above.


I also didn’t misquote: Christ said that He would rise “in three days” (John 2: 19–21), and also “after three days” (Mark 8: 31; Matthew 23: 63). How do you explain this if this period is less than 72 hours ?
The problem you have with 72 hours exactly, apart from the other problems I already mentioned, is that it means none of these quotes are correct. In three days means on the third day, so within 72 hours, whereas after 3 days would mean more than 72 hours, yet we also have 3 days and 3 nights. However as soon as we move away from a strict 72 hours to an idiomatic use of speech then it becomes clearer.
This works for dying on Thursday afternoon but rising on Sunday morning. Count them, Friday afternoon, Saturday afternoon, Sunday afternoon (rose at sunrise approximately.) So within 3 days or 72 hours.
Thursday day, Friday night, Friday day, Saturday night, Saturday day, Sunday night so after 3 days and 3 nights (not 3 nights and 3 days). Again matches the prophecy.
Again note if He rose on the Sunday morning then it is the third day after He died that He rose again. This matches Mark 8:31. Not sure of your Matt 23:63 reference as I couldn't find it.


The Bible does not say that Christ rose at sunrise when the tomb was opened, but that He was already risen and not there. The women got there early just before sunrise on the “first of the Sabbaths”, yet He was not there because Mark 16:9 says Christ rose even earlier on this “first of the Sabbaths”:
“Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.”
Nightfall at sunset is the earliest you can get !
Sorry, but nightfall isn't early. Nightfall is late, also note that early is referencing morning time as John 18:28, John 20:1, Luke 24:1, Mark 15:1, Mark 16:2. Please note this is the same passage you quote from yet early is mentioned as being morning NOT night!


(Remember you already conceded that this “day” is an insertion, and “week” can be plural “Sabbaths” ! )
The guards became catatonic with fear at the presence of the angel, who appeared and opened the sealed tomb, not at the appearance of Christ. Nobody actually saw Christ rise or walk out the sealed tomb, and He was only seen later, so according to you this would mean that He hasn’t fulfilled His “sign” proving that He was the Messiah, because He only showed Himself well after He had risen ! ! !
Jesus was seen on the third day, He was in the tomb only 3 days and 3 nights, He rose after 3 days. Not 4. The sign was that the tomb was empty first of all which was seen within the required time period. Second of all He appeared to Mary etc.


After He exited the tomb / “heart of the earth” Christ has had many hours, days and centuries unaccounted for, and He is also not accountable to us for His movements and whereabouts from the start of the 18th to soon after sunrise on the 18th !
So technically speaking Christ’s body entered the “heart of the earth” at the sunset ending the 14th and starting the 15th. To fulfill both “in” three days and also “after” three days, He rose and exited the tomb at the sunset ending the 17th and starting the 18th weekly Sabbath.
No technically He entered the "heart of the earth" when He died. This is a refrence to Hades or Sheol not the tomb. Though He was also placed in the tomb before sunset.


If we can get any 72 hours right millions of times, then surly Christ can get it right once ! ! !
But Jesus didn't say He would be in the tomb 72 hours. You are attributing to Jesus words He didn't say! We get 3 days right billions of times - we do better at that than 72 hours.


The tomb was later revealed as empty at about sunrise on this 18th weekly Sabbath and Christ, “Lord of the Sabbath”, appeared many times throughout the rest of this “first of the Sabbaths” weekly Sabbath day !
As shown in Mark 16:1 it was after the Sabbath was over. It was the day of the Omer.


“In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.” Matthew 28:1
Vakeros, you have already conceeded that “sabbath” can be “the interval between two sabbaths”, that “week” can be plural “sabbaths” and did not dispute that the “day” in itallics is an insertion. You did not dispute that this could easily read: ”In the end of the interval between the sabbaths, as it began to dawn toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.” Both Matthew and Mark state this. Luke and John state it was also possibly “the first of the sabbaths”, possibly not “first day of the week” !
Sorry, but I only conceded that the word Sabbaton can have more than one meaning. We then have to look which of those meanings can fit. As discussed elsewhere it doesn't fit for it to mean on the Sabbath.


The insertion “day” and use of “week” for “Sabbaths” was done to support the resurrection Easter Sunday fallacy !
Are you saying the Bible has been tampered with? Or merely highlighting that one particular interpretation of a word seems to be wrong?


Christ's body was laid in the tomb at sunset, so Luke 23:55-56 would indicate that they then had the Passover Feast of the 15th Abib. The next morning, still on the High Day Sabbath, they prepared spices and then rested, because the guard by then had already been posted and the seal set. If they can prepare spices on this day, why couldn’t they also apply them to the body
Christ's body was laid before sunset. They didn't prepare any spices on the 15th. They prepared the spices on the 17th in the evening after the Sabbath was over as per Mark 16:1.


- the Passover Feast was already eaten ! Only the guard and seal prevented them from applying the spices to the body. Christ did many things on the Sabbath which the Pharisees disapproved of, why couldn’t these women later go to the tomb on a weekly Sabbath, if the guards mandate was about to expire ? Remember they started their three day watch in the morning of the 15th ! Obviously the guard was changed a number of times over this period, and it would also make sense to continue the guard until sunrise otherwise His disciples could steal the body that night as well and still claim a resurrection the next day !
There would be no need to keep the guard once the period of time is over. Once it was completed the Pharisees would have trumpeted the fact that Jesus was a false prophet.


The weekly Sabbath is the day before the Omer and that weekly Sabbath is the “first of the Sabbaths” after the Passover High Day. The next seven weekly Sabbaths occur before Pentecost which is immediately after the “last of the Sabbaths” so to speak, which occurs on the seventh of Sivan. Including the “first of the Sabbaths” that the Omer follows immediately after, this is a total of eight Sabbaths and Pentecost occurs after the last one, and falling on the eighth of Sivan ! (If you sincerely like figures Vakeros, you should find this 7, 8 pattern interesting !)
Sorry, but there are exactly 7 Sabbaths in this pattern NOT 8. The first of these Sabbaths occurs AFTER the Omer NOT before.


Finally, some good things have come out of this thread, but you will no doubt continue to disagree with much of what I say. We seem to be just going around in circles, so I suggest we “agree to disagree” and move on.
Fenris, if you or others wish to see why I say that the lunar calendar is false, I suggest completely and carefully go over “The Temple Calendar” here: http://www.declarethedecree.com/the_temple_calendar.doc
Vakeros, I will have to modify my page on the process of elimination soon.
THANK YOU ALL.
I hope you realise I don't disagree, just for the sake of disagreeing. I disagree, because I see that the Bible doesn't show what you are saying. I am happy to leave things now if you wish. It has been interesting though at times dense to work this through.

Michael John
May 12th 2013, 01:17 AM
Matthew 12:1 to Matthew 13:1 shows Christ on the Sabbath day close to His home town in the corn fields, then in the synagogue, then by the sea side. If the Pharisee condemned Christ’s disciples for threshing corn in their hands to eat on this Sabbath, but would hypocritically take their animals out the pit on the Sabbath, how far would they travel to do that ? Would they exceed the 1.13 mile Sabbath-day's journey from the city walls to do that ? Christ said that He was greater than the Temple, Lord of the Sabbath day and that His disciples were guiltless in breaking that Sabbath day ! Would Christ repeatedly break their traditional “Sabbath days journey” with the two mile travel from Bethany, to do the “good work” of teaching the word of God in the Temple and healing the sick, blind and crippled on the Sabbath day ?

“How much then is a man better than a sheep ?
Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.” ( Matthew 12:12 )

Could the two travellers going to Emmaus have been “doing well on the Sabbath day” ? Could even bearing the tragic news of the death of the “Lord of the Sabbath” be construed as “doing well on the Sabbath day” ?

“But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.” ( Luke 24: 29-31 )

Yes, Emmaus was only 7 miles from Jerusalem. If they got there at mid-day, after which the sun has turned to flight and started its decline, slope, or movement towards sunset, then after they ate and broke bread they would still have plenty of time to return to Jerusalem before sunset. An examination of the Greek words “far”, “spent” and “toward” in the verse indicate this possibility.

Christ said that He would rise “in three days” (John 2: 19–21), and also “after three days” (Mark 8: 31; Matthew 27: 63). How do you explain this if this period is less than 72 hours ?


So within 3 days or 72 hours.

Doesn’t this mean that one can also include the whole of the last 72nd hour as well but not longer, and yet still have Christ “idiomatically” rising “after three days” ? Can this meaning fit ?


Sorry, but I only conceded that the word Sabbaton can have more than one meaning. We then have to look which of those meanings can fit.

Luke 23:54-56 and Mark 16:1-3 are obviously referring to two different Sabbaths, the High Day Passover Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath respectively. The following does fit:

“And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.” ( Luke 23: 54-56 )

Christ said that we can do any good work on a Sabbath, such as take a distressed animal out a pit, or heal a sick person or circumcise a male child. The women did a good work in preparing the spices on this High Day Sabbath, but by then they couldn’t continue with this “good work” and apply the spices to the body, because the tomb was already sealed and under guard. Consequently they rested according to the commandment.

The following day, the 16th Abib, was a working day according to the Pharisees themselves, who later made it the Omer day after the Temple was destroyed. They could never have changed the Omer from after the next weekly Sabbath to after the Passover High day Sabbath if the 16th was also the weekly Sabbath as you, Vakeros, suggest. You know that it is not I who says that the 16th is the Omer, the Pharisees said it is, so either you are wrong, they are wrong, or you are both wrong !

On this 16th Abib working day, the women could not apply the spices to the body because the tomb remained sealed and under guard.

On the next 17th Abib working day, the women could still not apply the spices to the body because the tomb remained sealed and under guard. The next day however, was the weekly Sabbath on the 18th Abib as per the Dead Sea Scroll’s.

During this interval of two days between the Passover High Day Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath, the women bought more spices. After the interval was over they again attempted to apply the spices when they expected the guard to be lifted and the seal removed from the tomb. Strong's no. 4521 show that Mark 16: 1-3 can read something like this without the inserted “day” in italics:

“And when the interval between the two Sabbaths was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices that they might come and anoint him.
And very early in the morning on the first of the Sabbaths, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? ( Mark 16:1-3 )


Are you saying the Bible has been tampered with? Or merely highlighting that one particular interpretation of a word seems to be wrong?

I am saying that the particular interpretation of the verses in question, with the additional insertion of the word “day”, favors a Pagan Easter week “Sun-day” resurrection, which you have again reverted back to calling it ! The insertion “day” and use of “week” for “Sabbaths” was done to support this Easter Sun-day syncretism !


Sorry, but there are exactly 7 Sabbaths in this pattern NOT 8. The first of these Sabbaths occurs AFTER the Omer NOT before.

Yes, but you know that I am saying that with the additional weekly Sabbath on the day before the Omer, it would be eight Sabbaths in total. Yes, there are seven Sabbaths after the Omer for the 7 x 7 = 49 day count of the 7 Sabbaths, but even with a weekly Sabbath on the 16th Abib as you assert, there is still a total of eight Sabbaths after the Passover, are there not ? Furthermore, with a resurrection in the midst of the Feast of Unleavened Bread on the 18th Abib, and with the Omer on the 19th, Pentecost would then fall on the 8th day of the third month, after the 7th Sabbath on the 7th day of the third month, would it not ?

7 Sabbaths after the Omer: 7 x 7 = 49

7th Sabbath after the Omer falling on the 7th day of the third month.

8 Sabbaths after the Passover in total.

50th day of Pentecost falling on the 8th day of the third month:
immediately after the 7th Sabbath after the Omer on the 7th day of the third month.

50th day of Pentecost falling on the 8th day of the third month:
immediately after the 8th Sabbath after the Passover on the 7th day of the third month.

This is the 7 and 8 pattern I was referring to.

When I said:

“Nightfall at sunset is the earliest you can get !”

I clearly meant that the day starts at sunset and the earliest you can get before sunrise is the previous sunset about 12 hours before. Therefore although the women got to the tomb early at sunrise, Christ could have risen even earlier, as he obviously did.

When I said:

‘ “Then the same day at evening <3798> . . .” (John 20:19), Christ again appeared in the late afternoon ! The Biblical “same day” means before sunset !’

I included the Strong’s number 3798 to show that in this “same day at evening”, can easily mean late afternoon:

3798 oqiov opsios op'-see-os

from 3796; ; adj

AV-even 8, evening 4, in the evening + 1096 1, eventide + 5610 1, at even + 1096 1; 15

1) late
2) evening
2a) either from three to six o'clock p.m.
2b) from six o'clock p.m. to the beginning of night


No an evening meal was exactly that, a meal in the evening. The evening starts after sunset (6 pm). Before that is the afternoon.

What meal is a “supper” when eaten before sunset or watching the sun set ? Have you never eaten “supper” before sunset ?

Vakeros, in the link http://www.declarethedecree.com/the_temple_calendar.doc I have illustrated the complete Dead Sea Scroll’s calendar, modified to reflect the Sadducee Omer on the 19th Abib. I have repeatedly asked you to show us what your complete calendar looks like, to no avail.

Won’t your Abib Sabbaths stand up to examination in a full calendar ?

Vakeros
May 12th 2013, 08:00 AM
Matthew 12:1 to Matthew 13:1 shows Christ on the Sabbath day close to His home town in the corn fields, then in the synagogue, then by the sea side. If the Pharisee condemned Christ’s disciples for threshing corn in their hands to eat on this Sabbath, but would hypocritically take their animals out the pit on the Sabbath, how far would they travel to do that ? Would they exceed the 1.13 mile Sabbath-day's journey from the city walls to do that ? Christ said that He was greater than the Temple, Lord of the Sabbath day and that His disciples were guiltless in breaking that Sabbath day ! Would Christ repeatedly break their traditional “Sabbath days journey” with the two mile travel from Bethany, to do the “good work” of teaching the word of God in the Temple and healing the sick, blind and crippled on the Sabbath day ?
“How much then is a man better than a sheep ?
Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.” ( Matthew 12:12 )
No problem with this.


Could the two travellers going to Emmaus have been “doing well on the Sabbath day” ? Could even bearing the tragic news of the death of the “Lord of the Sabbath” be construed as “doing well on the Sabbath day” ?
No is the simple answer. They weren't even bearing the tragic news to someone.


“But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.” ( Luke 24: 29-31 )
Yes, Emmaus was only 7 miles from Jerusalem. If they got there at mid-day, after which the sun has turned to flight and started its decline, slope, or movement towards sunset, then after they ate and broke bread they would still have plenty of time to return to Jerusalem before sunset. An examination of the Greek words “far”, “spent” and “toward” in the verse indicate this possibility.
A possibility maybe, but the evening would then be according to your timeline, not a Sabbath but the Omer.


Christ said that He would rise “in three days” (John 2: 19–21), and also “after three days” (Mark 8: 31; Matthew 27: 63). How do you explain this if this period is less than 72 hours ?
Doesn’t this mean that one can also include the whole of the last 72nd hour as well but not longer, and yet still have Christ “idiomatically” rising “after three days” ? Can this meaning fit ?
I have already showed you how it fits.


Luke 23:54-56 and Mark 16:1-3 are obviously referring to two different Sabbaths, the High Day Passover Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath respectively. The following does fit:
“And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.” ( Luke 23: 54-56 )
No this Sabbath referred to hear is the High Sabbath.


Christ said that we can do any good work on a Sabbath, such as take a distressed animal out a pit, or heal a sick person or circumcise a male child. The women did a good work in preparing the spices on this High Day Sabbath, but by then they couldn’t continue with this “good work” and apply the spices to the body, because the tomb was already sealed and under guard. Consequently they rested according to the commandment.
No they rested on the Sabbath, that means they didn't prepare spices on the Sabbath. They saw where the body was laid, they went home, prepared some spices and then rested on the Sabbath. We read further though that Mark 16:1 they bought more spices after the Sabbath was over. This they then brought the following morning.


The following day, the 16th Abib, was a working day according to the Pharisees themselves, who later made it the Omer day after the Temple was destroyed. They could never have changed the Omer from after the next weekly Sabbath to after the Passover High day Sabbath if the 16th was also the weekly Sabbath as you, Vakeros, suggest. You know that it is not I who says that the 16th is the Omer, the Pharisees said it is, so either you are wrong, they are wrong, or you are both wrong !
Don't follow this argument in the slightest. The Omer is the day after the Sabbath - it is never the Sabbath. This is according to Lev 23:15. Are you disagreeing with scripture?


On this 16th Abib working day, the women could not apply the spices to the body because the tomb remained sealed and under guard.
On the next 17th Abib working day, the women could still not apply the spices to the body because the tomb remained sealed and under guard. The next day however, was the weekly Sabbath on the 18th Abib as per the Dead Sea Scroll’s.
Sorry, but I follow what the Bible says before what the Dead Sea Scroll's say. If they don't align then I will reject them. If they align and add something useful then I will pay attention to them. Note though on the 18th the guards wouldn't be there according to what you say, yet they still are! So it is clearly not AFTER 3 days.


During this interval of two days between the Passover High Day Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath, the women bought more spices. After the interval was over they again attempted to apply the spices when they expected the guard to be lifted and the seal removed from the tomb. Strong's no. 4521 show that Mark 16: 1-3 can read something like this without the inserted “day” in italics:
“And when the interval between the two Sabbaths was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices that they might come and anoint him.
And very early in the morning on the first of the Sabbaths, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? ( Mark 16:1-3 )
I am saying that the particular interpretation of the verses in question, with the additional insertion of the word “day”, favors a Pagan Easter week “Sun-day” resurrection, which you have again reverted back to calling it ! The insertion “day” and use of “week” for “Sabbaths” was done to support this Easter Sun-day syncretism !
I have no problem with calling it the first day. Note it was on the first day when God said let there be light! Guess what, there was light!


Yes, but you know that I am saying that with the additional weekly Sabbath on the day before the Omer, it would be eight Sabbaths in total. Yes, there are seven Sabbaths after the Omer for the 7 x 7 = 49 day count of the 7 Sabbaths, but even with a weekly Sabbath on the 16th Abib as you assert, there is still a total of eight Sabbaths after the Passover, are there not ? Furthermore, with a resurrection in the midst of the Feast of Unleavened Bread on the 18th Abib, and with the Omer on the 19th, Pentecost would then fall on the 8th day of the third month, after the 7th Sabbath on the 7th day of the third month, would it not ?
7 Sabbaths after the Omer: 7 x 7 = 49
7th Sabbath after the Omer falling on the 7th day of the third month.
8 Sabbaths after the Passover in total.
50th day of Pentecost falling on the 8th day of the third month:
immediately after the 7th Sabbath after the Omer on the 7th day of the third month.
50th day of Pentecost falling on the 8th day of the third month:
immediately after the 8th Sabbath after the Passover on the 7th day of the third month.
This is the 7 and 8 pattern I was referring to.
Don't follow what you are trying to say. It is clear that the Omer is the day after a Sabbath. Note though that the Feast of Unleavened Bread hadn't finished. There was a Sabbath to happen after the Omer which is the first of the 7 Sabbaths. You can note that the day before the Omer is an eighth Sabbath, but NOT following what the point is as that isn't within what God is saying.


When I said:
“Nightfall at sunset is the earliest you can get !”
I clearly meant that the day starts at sunset and the earliest you can get before sunrise is the previous sunset about 12 hours before. Therefore although the women got to the tomb early at sunrise, Christ could have risen even earlier, as he obviously did.
No He OBVIOUSLY didn't. You can make the argument that He may have done, but by delaying everythin a further 12 hours you make the sign of Jonah be 4 days and NOT 3, which is the whole point of the SIGN!


When I said:
‘ “Then the same day at evening <3798> . . .” (John 20:19), Christ again appeared in the late afternoon ! The Biblical “same day” means before sunset !’
I included the Strong’s number 3798 to show that in this “same day at evening”, can easily mean late afternoon:
3798 oqiov opsios op'-see-os
from 3796; ; adj
AV-even 8, evening 4, in the evening + 1096 1, eventide + 5610 1, at even + 1096 1; 15
1) late
2) evening
2a) either from three to six o'clock p.m.
2b) from six o'clock p.m. to the beginning of night
What meal is a “supper” when eaten before sunset or watching the sun set ? Have you never eaten “supper” before sunset ?
No, never! Supper is either the evening meal or AFTER the evening meal. This is also clearly the Biblical use of the evening meal.


Vakeros, in the link http://www.declarethedecree.com/the_temple_calendar.doc I have illustrated the complete Dead Sea Scroll’s calendar, modified to reflect the Sadducee Omer on the 19th Abib. I have repeatedly asked you to show us what your complete calendar looks like, to no avail.
Won’t your Abib Sabbaths stand up to examination in a full calendar ?
I gave you a brief outline. I am not interested in showing a complete Calendar. An outline is sufficient. You haven't shown in a single way yet how my outline isn't possible according to scripture. Please show me the logical fallacy in what I have put. You can of course disagree with it, but please show me where it isn't possible for Jesus to die on the 14th and be raised on the 17th.

Michael John
May 17th 2013, 05:41 PM
Vakeros, you say:


I gave you a brief outline. I am not interested in showing a complete Calendar. An outline is sufficient. You haven't shown in a single way yet how my outline isn't possible according to scripture. Please show me the logical fallacy in what I have put. You can of course disagree with it, but please show me where it isn't possible for Jesus to die on the 14th and be raised on the 17th.

Unfortunately you have only given an outline of the inclusive count from the 14th to the 17th Abib. As far as the rest of your 365¼ day calendar goes, you have revealed nothing ! We cannot therefore see how what you claim effects the placement of Pentecost and the rest of the years Sabbaths and other Feasts. This will help determine if your claim is correct or not !

Are you prepared to reveal your calendar to us ?

Vakeros
May 21st 2013, 07:21 PM
Vakeros, you say:
Unfortunately you have only given an outline of the inclusive count from the 14th to the 17th Abib. As far as the rest of your 365¼ day calendar goes, you have revealed nothing ! We cannot therefore see how what you claim effects the placement of Pentecost and the rest of the years Sabbaths and other Feasts. This will help determine if your claim is correct or not !
Are you prepared to reveal your calendar to us ?
Actually, I thought I would leave you to show how my placement would or wouldn't work.
I also showed more than just the 14th to 17th. I highlighted how the 17th is the Omer and so 49 days later is Pentecost. I showed how the 16th is the Sabbath and the 15th the High Sabbath thus causing the word Sabbaton to be used. I showed how the 9th could also be a Sabbath etc.
For me there isn't anything else I feel necessary to say on this thread.

Michael John
May 22nd 2013, 12:42 PM
Without the starting day of your calendar and without the number of days in each month, there is no way of knowing if your placement for these days will work for Pentecost or the rest of the year !

E.g. to count to your Pentecost how many days are in your Abib and your second month ? You might have anything from 28 to 31 days in these months and therefore Pentecost could vary for up to 6 days !

Is your calendar lunar or solar ?

When is the first day of your year ?

Without the rest of this information your calendar, such as it is, is utterly useless !

Without this information we also cannot see where your Sabbaths fall in relation to the other Feast days !

Without this information, like you we are also unable to show you how your calendar works !

If you do have this information, please share it with us !

Do you want to stand at the gate of the Kingdom and help usher us in, or are you one of those referred to in Matthew 23:13 ? !

Vakeros
May 22nd 2013, 09:22 PM
Without the starting day of your calendar and without the number of days in each month, there is no way of knowing if your placement for these days will work for Pentecost or the rest of the year !
E.g. to count to your Pentecost how many days are in your Abib and your second month ? You might have anything from 28 to 31 days in these months and therefore Pentecost could vary for up to 6 days !
Is your calendar lunar or solar ?
When is the first day of your year ?
Without the rest of this information your calendar, such as it is, is utterly useless !
Without this information we also cannot see where your Sabbaths fall in relation to the other Feast days !
Without this information, like you we are also unable to show you how your calendar works !
If you do have this information, please share it with us !
Do you want to stand at the gate of the Kingdom and help usher us in, or are you one of those referred to in Matthew 23:13 ? !
The day I gave you for the year when Jesus died allows you to know when Shavuot (Pentecost) was. It was 49 days after Jesus rose again - so again the day after Sabbath exactly as scripture requires. No other day works for Shavuot. It isn't useless. But it also sin't the same every year. I have no need for a full years calendar - all that is needed is an understanding as we have previously discussed in this thread. If you want to look at an entire year then please do start a thread, but it is irrelevant to this discussion as far as I can understand things.

Michael John
May 27th 2013, 10:04 AM
How do you know when Jesus rose if you don't have a starting day of the year ?

Is it a lunar year or a solar year ?

Why won’t you tell us ???

If you have no need for a full years calendar:

How do you determine the Day of Trumpets ?
How do you determine the Day of Atonement ?
How do you determine the Feast of Tabernacles ?

Vakeros
Jun 1st 2013, 09:55 AM
How do you know when Jesus rose if you don't have a starting day of the year ?

Is it a lunar year or a solar year ?

Why won’t you tell us ???

If you have no need for a full years calendar:

How do you determine the Day of Trumpets ?
How do you determine the Day of Atonement ?
How do you determine the Feast of Tabernacles ?

As I put you can start a new thread on any of this. I don't need a starting day, only a starting date. This is what I did with the above discussion. We can determine days from dates.
I have nothing further to add to this.
Blessings