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fewarechosen
Apr 7th 2013, 11:46 PM
saw some resurrection threads and thought there is some good food for thought about what it means to be dead.

a few scriptures, with which i notice a few specific things, notice he says unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you have no life in you, if you dont have life in you, you are dead, so He is not even acknowledging your flesh at all as life, He is saying you dont have life in you at all at that point, until you eat and drink His

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

this one below, note the people burying the dead person He speaks of as being dead, He means it, He is speaking directly to the effect that they are not alive because they have not ate His flesh and blood, so important to note they arent alive

Mat_8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

this one below is a damsel whos body is dead, notice He says she is not dead buts sleepeth, in other scripture you will see a tie in when He mentions sleep, thats waht He is calling her earthly death

Mar 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

this one again below notice how He speaks of death as sleep'

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

now there is a very deep thing in this scripture that i see, but again everyone sees what their eyes see

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

notice martha is speaking of the last day and resurresction as a future event, Christ standing there says "I am the resurrection", He doesnt speak of it in future terms at all, no will be

notice too "though he were dead" and remember if the spirit is not in them they are dead, He is speaking about the dead as in those who do not have Spirit in them

and also note that they shall never die, He is not including the flesh at all

you are dead without the Spirit of life in you, i perceive that just because a persons breathing and walking does not mean they are living

you get life when the Spirit enters you

that also leads to pondering if everyone is dead until the Spirit enters them, where is it that all the dead reside ?

so just food for thought because like anything else people have vastly different ideas and see different things in scripture, i dont much care on convincing anyone to think like i do but i do like to see how others think and see.

percho
Apr 8th 2013, 02:12 AM
Should the things Jesus said and did while walking the earth be taken as God the Son in action or as the Son of God, as the prophet like unto Moses, saying and acting in the context of thus says the LORD.

For example. Being sin had not been dealt with could Jesus have raised Lazarus from sleep unto eternal life at that time?
Would he be resurrected with the power to do that very thing in the future?


Adam died the moment he ate the fruit yet death wasn't manifested in him until he died in the flesh. That is what, dying thou durst die, means.

The soul Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, without sin was put to death in the flesh. His soul dead in Hades, his flesh dead in a borrowed tomb. Resurrected to life giving Spirit, flesh and bone.



I think.

Brother Mark
Apr 8th 2013, 03:42 AM
so just food for thought because like anything else people have vastly different ideas and see different things in scripture, i dont much care on convincing anyone to think like i do but i do like to see how others think and see.

One thing I always try to keep in mind is how Jesus taught and what he says about his words.

In John 6, he talked about eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Those who heard, thought it was a hard saying. And to be honest, who wouldn't think that! Still, they stayed around and discussed it. Then Jesus said something else, and they left! IOW, while it was cannibalism, they thought it was a hard saying, but when he clarified, they simply got up and walked away. Here's what he said that made them walk away.

John 6:61-67
61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
NASU

Jesus wasn't speaking literally, but spiritually. So long as they thought he was speaking literally, they listened and complained. But when he told them he was speaking spiritually, they left! Why? IMO, because he was talking about covenant. Literally eating someones flesh and drinking their blood is gross but doable even if hard. Going into covenant means laying your life down for them and that is impossible! Only the closest of friends would be willing to do such a thing because that relationship will exceed all other relationships!

My point? Jesus often speaks in spirit and in life and his words are not always meant to be taken literal. I think death is one of those words. To be dead doesn't mean incapable but rather, IMO, it means to be separated.

Adam and Eve died the day they ate the fruit because they became separated from God. One who is saved, doesn't become separated when they physically die so they "sleep". But one who is separated from God now, is dead already.

We are told we are dead to sin by Paul in Romans. But do you and I still sin? How is it that we are capable of doing that which we are dead to? Because dead doesn't mean incapable. It just means that God separated me from my sin nature. Not my sin habits, or sinful ways, etc. Those things have to be worked out through sanctification. But I am dead to sin because I am separated from it and now united with Christ.

Walls
Apr 8th 2013, 11:02 AM
I hope this helps the thread.

If we examine Adam before the fall we note that in his perfection, he was placed before the Tree of Life and "commanded" to eat. This shows us that although he was a "living soul" and that he was without sin, he still needed something additional. The vitality that Adam had from God's breath is also given to animals (Eccl.3:19), but (a) they are not made in the image and likeness of God, (b) they are not commanded to eat from the Tree of Life, and (c) their spirit does not return to God at death like a man (Eccl.3:21). So in the case of Adam, TWO types of life are revealed. One is the vitality of God's breath that, like the beasts, animates him physically, and then there is a Life that is to be had by eating from the Tree of Life, that enables him to display God.

Our Lord Jesus is the prime example of this. He is man, born of a woman, and eats, sleeps and breathes (Gal.4:4), but because He is also born of the Holy Spirit, He "is the image of the invisible God,..." (Col.1:15).

Likewise, there are two deaths. Matthew 10:28 shows that the body can die and that the soul can die too. But the two deaths are not the same. One is physical death which sees the spirit leave the man (Jas.2:26) and the body become inanimate, and the other, the "second death" or "perdition" is the total "lack of well being" (Vine).

In the original posting both types of life are alluded to, and, if we separate these two different types of life, and apply them correctly in scripture, the dilemma disappears. The trick is to see, within the context, which "Life" scripture is addressing. The gospel of John is different from the so-called Synoptic Gospels because its main them is not a historical account of our Lord's stay on earth, but a book written in order to get the second type of Life mentioned above INTO MAN. The very last verse of John says; "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen" (John 21:25). And the last verse of the penultimate Chapter is; "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (John 20:31).

The "Life" in John's gospel is not primarily resurrection life, although this restoration of physical life is alluded to, and is connected to the second type of Life. The "Life" that is the main subject of John's gospel is the "Divine Life", or "Divine Nature" of God that is infused into a man when (a) he eats from the Tree of Life (before sin came in), and (b) when he eats the Lamb (after sin came in). This divine life is the big "extra" that Adam needed to accomplish God's purpose with him. Let us examine an example.

Many people have dogs for pets. A dog is a wonderful pet. He is faithful, forgiving, loyal, always happy to see his master, never grumpy, uncomplaining in pain, eats all without complaint and is apt to protect the master even in danger of losing his life. But, though he displays many of God's attributes, and is superior in certain attributes to any man, HE REMAINS A DOG. Why? Because he has the nature of a dog. He can be a wonderful companion but a you cannot marry a dog. He can be all of the above, but he cannot display a human. He just doesn't have the nature of a human. So too it is with man. He was made in the image and likeness of God, to display God. But to do this he has to possess God's nature. This is exactly what happened when God paraded all the animals before Adam. Adam liked what he saw and named them all, BUT no "help" (partner) "meet" (up to the standard of) Adam was found. It was not that there was anything wrong with the animals, but none where up to his standard. So it is with man. Adam was essentially a perfect man, but he lack that nature that would have allowed him to display God.

That is why Adam is "commanded" to eat from the Tree of Life when he was already alive. And the different type of life one gets from the Tree of Life is seen in that while Adam could die physically before he ate from the Tree of Life, he could not die after eating from it. It gave him eternal life (Gen.3:22-24). So a man in scripture is "dead in his sins" indicating that God regards him as dead, for the wages of sin is physical death. You can see that "dead in your sins" has to do with physical death because, "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together,..." (Eph.2:5-6). Christ, born of the Holy Spirit (Matt.1:18; Lk.1:35) and having the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Col.2:9) already had that life that the Tree of Life gave. But He needed to be quickened after death on the cross - His physical death. On the other hand, God regards any man who has not eaten from the Tree of Life, or the Lamb (as in John 6) as "having not life in him" (v.53). Here, we see the two types of life clearly.

The gospel of John has, as its main theme, the process of getting this "eternal and divine Life" into a man. All the signs that John recorded are to provoke faith, and faith is for a rebirth. The exact terminology of John Chapter 3 is "born AGAIN", or "born from above". This rebirth only happens in the spirit (Jn.3:6), not the body (as Nicodemus thought), or the soul. These other two parts of man have their own recovery, viz. transformation (Rom.12:2) and resurrection (Rom.8:23). Born "again" also does not imply that the spirit of man is dead. "Again" just means "a second time." So Adam "became a living soul" with God's first breathing, but needed the second (eating) as an additional birth - or rebirth. John's gospel leads us up to the event of getting this divine life into me in 20:22. Before that, our Lord is incarnated, lives under Law and fulfills it, predicts His death to put away sins and does it, predicts His resurrection and is resurrected, says that He will go to the Father and if He goes to the Father He promises to return so that His disciples will then be where He (Jesus) was (present tense), that is, "in the Father, and the Father in Him" (Jn.14:3, 11), and does this in John 20:22.

Thus Peter, chiefest of disciples says; "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" (2nd Peter 1:3-4).