PDA

View Full Version : ANGELS



The Real Milk Man
May 14th 2013, 06:03 PM
Peace to all; Are angels divine beings??

RabbiKnife
May 14th 2013, 06:32 PM
Divine?

Not sure how you mean that.

They are not God-like.

They have the ability to sin.

They are created beings.

ewq1938
May 14th 2013, 11:03 PM
Peace to all; Are angels divine beings??

Not divine but they are heavenly beings, a higher being than humans are, incorruptible bodies, always male....

keck553
May 14th 2013, 11:05 PM
Not divine but they are heavenly beings, a higher being than humans are, incorruptible bodies, always male....

hence nefilim? Inquiring minds and all that....

ewq1938
May 15th 2013, 04:34 AM
hence nefilim? Inquiring minds and all that....

The Nephilim were male and angels, yes.

Boo
May 15th 2013, 09:18 AM
What makes anyone believe that Angels are male? What makes us think that they have the ability to reproduce? They are created beings, not born of another Angel. It would appear then that they are gender-neutral. Why do we think that God gave Angels the ability to reproduce in a place where there are none of the opposite sex to reproduce with?

grams
May 15th 2013, 10:43 AM
Are we not going to replace the Angels ?

-SEEKING-
May 15th 2013, 10:45 AM
Are we not going to replace the Angels ?

I believe that's more myth/legend/fairy tale belief than anything else. Angels are angels and humans are humans. I don't know anywhere it's ever said we somehow change into another created being.

Ta-An
May 15th 2013, 11:24 AM
Are we not going to replace the Angels ?
Why do you think that we would??

:hmm maybe because we will judge the Angels??

Brother Paul
May 15th 2013, 02:32 PM
The Nephilim were male and angels, yes.

The Neph were offspring (at least 1/2 human) thus not angels

Angels are eternal beings but not divine (not deity though some cultures eventually worshiped them)

Brother Paul

Kahtar
May 15th 2013, 02:40 PM
I am always amazed by all the experts on angeology on here. How many of you have actually seen an angel? How do you know what angels are capable of, or not capable of? Male? Sexless? It is amazing how much stuff gets read into the Word that isn't there.

keck553
May 15th 2013, 02:45 PM
I am always amazed by all the experts on angeology on here. How many of you have actually seen an angel? How do you know what angels are capable of, or not capable of? Male? Sexless? It is amazing how much stuff gets read into the Word that isn't there.

How many of us have actually seen Jesus? Considering the typical Nordic images of Him and His Scandinavian blue eyed mom, I guess you have a point, Victorian art notwithstanding,

however, we do have a few clues. When the Word does refer to gender of angels, they are always male. Any others?

Kahtar
May 15th 2013, 03:23 PM
How many of us have actually seen Jesus? Considering the typical Nordic images of Him and His Scandinavian blue eyed mom, I guess you have a point, Victorian art notwithstanding,

however, we do have a few clues. When the Word does refer to gender of angels, they are always male. Any others?No, you are correct, the Word only says male. But that's my point. It doesn't say female, but why do we assume that rules out female angels? Understand, I am not saying there are female angels. I've never seen an angel. Personally, I think they are able to appear in many different forms. But, of course I get that idea by using the same 'technique' that I'm questioning here, by taking one verse that says Satan is able to transform himself into an angel of light, and assuming he is able to transform into other forms as well, which the Word does not say.
Its so easy to do that, you know? Read some portion of scripture, and 'expand' it, or limit it, etc. in our own minds, read into it what isn't really there, or make deductions based on what it does not say.
In other words, the Word does not mention female angels, only male if it mentions it at all, but that does not mean there are no female angels, nor does it mean there are. The Word is silent about that, and we should not formulate doctrines about it.
The Word says 'the angels in heaven do not marry', but it does not say whether the fallen angels do or not, nor does that passage have anything at all to do with sexual relations or childbirth. Yet so many formulate their doctrines of unbelief around that single verse (I say unbelief because they do not believe angels can procreate).

ewq1938
May 15th 2013, 09:36 PM
What makes anyone believe that Angels are male?

Because every time an angel is described or has been seen in scripture, they are male.


What makes us think that they have the ability to reproduce?

Scripture says they did in Genesis 6.



It would appear then that they are gender-neutral.

Not according to scripture. They have been mistaken for human men before because they look very much human and very much male.



Why do we think that God gave Angels the ability to reproduce in a place where there are none of the opposite sex to reproduce with?

They are expected not to? Maybe in a similar way why Christ didn't have children but could have.

ewq1938
May 15th 2013, 09:38 PM
I believe that's more myth/legend/fairy tale belief than anything else. Angels are angels and humans are humans. I don't know anywhere it's ever said we somehow change into another created being.

Resurrected humans are said to be equal to the angels which essentially means there is no difference.

ewq1938
May 15th 2013, 09:44 PM
The Neph were offspring (at least 1/2 human) thus not angels

No, the fallen angels were called Nephilim from the root word Naphal meaning to fall. Their children were known as Gibbor:

Gen 6:4 There were NEPHILIM in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became GIBBOR which were of old, men of renown.

As you can see, the Nephilim had children with human women, not that they were the children.



Angels are eternal beings but not divine


true

ewq1938
May 15th 2013, 10:11 PM
No, you are correct, the Word only says male. But that's my point. It doesn't say female, but why do we assume that rules out female angels?

Same reason we don't assume there are robot angels just because they weren't mentioned. I think it's fairly safe to assume that females and reproduction was created for this age only. I don't believe it existed before, or will exist in the next age.

keck553
May 15th 2013, 11:32 PM
No, you are correct, the Word only says male. But that's my point. It doesn't say female, but why do we assume that rules out female angels? Understand, I am not saying there are female angels. I've never seen an angel. Personally, I think they are able to appear in many different forms. But, of course I get that idea by using the same 'technique' that I'm questioning here, by taking one verse that says Satan is able to transform himself into an angel of light, and assuming he is able to transform into other forms as well, which the Word does not say.
Its so easy to do that, you know? Read some portion of scripture, and 'expand' it, or limit it, etc. in our own minds, read into it what isn't really there, or make deductions based on what it does not say.
In other words, the Word does not mention female angels, only male if it mentions it at all, but that does not mean there are no female angels, nor does it mean there are. The Word is silent about that, and we should not formulate doctrines about it.
The Word says 'the angels in heaven do not marry', but it does not say whether the fallen angels do or not, nor does that passage have anything at all to do with sexual relations or childbirth. Yet so many formulate their doctrines of unbelief around that single verse (I say unbelief because they do not believe angels can procreate).

Yeah, I have to say that is a good point about the limitations thingy. It would probably be well just not to speculate on it. Well, at least we know about the "male" angels - at least in role....

Boo
May 16th 2013, 09:26 AM
I acknowledge that there are things that I do not know. But then, that doesn't mean that I don't have questions as to how others have come to know things.

The term man in the bible also refers to women. However, I know of no place in the bible that says angels are "male." We are given to believe that, when Angels walk on Earth, they appear as men. Does that mean that they never appear as women?

Jesus was born as a human man, so he did have the ability to reproduce since he had a male human body. He was not an Angel while He walked as a man.

Back to my point, Angels are not men. They are not humans. The are created, so they do not reproduce. Our definition of "Male" indicates an ability to reproduce. Are we sure that we are understanding the idea of Nephilim correctly?

I do believe the Bible tells the truth. I am not so sure that we always understand it. That is why I wrestly with the idea of reproductive organs in created beings who were not given the opposite gender to procreate.

keck553
May 16th 2013, 11:38 AM
For all practical purposes, two of the three angels who visited Abraham and Lot appeared ro be men.

ewq1938
May 16th 2013, 09:52 PM
I acknowledge that there are things that I do not know. But then, that doesn't mean that I don't have questions as to how others have come to know things.

The term man in the bible also refers to women. However, I know of no place in the bible that says angels are "male." We are given to believe that, when Angels walk on Earth, they appear as men. Does that mean that they never appear as women?

All we know is that every description of angels are given as males. When people saw angels they saw males.



Back to my point, Angels are not men. They are not humans.

They are not human men, but they are men.

Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Gabriel means "man of God"


OT:1403
Gabriy'el (gab-ree-ale'); from OT:1397 and OT:410; man of God; Gabriel, an archangel:

KJV - Garbriel.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


1043
1043 Gabriel {gab-ree-ale'}
of Hebrew origin 01403;; n pr m
AV - Gabriel 2; 2
Gabriel = "man of God"
1) one of the angel princes or chiefs of the angels





Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.



Here Gabriel is called a man.




Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,



and here we are told he is an angel.


"the man Gabriel"
"the angel Gabriel"


An angel is a man (male) but not a human man.




Ezekiel 47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
Ezekiel 47:2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
Ezekiel 47:3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.


"the man that had the line in his hand"


This is also an angel who is called a man by the writer of this book.






Genesis 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
Genesis 19:2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
Genesis 19:3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
Genesis 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
Genesis 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
Genesis 19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,


Here men see the angels and call them "men". Angels look like human beings and are often confused as being human. They are men, except rather than being human men they are angelic or heavenly beings called men because they are male.




Judges 13:3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
Judges 13:4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:
Judges 13:5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.
Judges 13:6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:

"A man of God came unto me"

Judges 13:7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.
Judges 13:8 Then Manoah intreated the LORD, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born.

"let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us"


Judges 13:9 And God hearkened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again unto the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah her husband was not with her.

"the angel of God came again"


Judges 13:10 And the woman made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day.

"the man hath appeared unto me"

Judges 13:11 And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am.
Judges 13:12 And Manoah said, Now let thy words come to pass. How shall we order the child, and how shall we do unto him?
Judges 13:13 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Of all that I said unto the woman let her beware.
Judges 13:14 She may not eat of any thing that cometh of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing: all that I commanded her let her observe.
Judges 13:15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.
Judges 13:16 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD.
Judges 13:17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
Judges 13:18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?
Judges 13:19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the LORD: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.
Judges 13:20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.
Judges 13:21 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.

Here the angel of the Lord is also called a "man of God" because he was a man (male), just not the human kind.






The are created, so they do not reproduce.



That is an unsupported opinion. It is not fact. Scripture says they have reproduced so I am inclined to agree with it.






Our definition of "Male" indicates an ability to reproduce. Are we sure that we are understanding the idea of Nephilim correctly? That is why I wrestly with the idea of reproductive organs in created beings who were not given the opposite gender to procreate.

What if those organs weren't originally designed for reproduction but were adapted to that purpose later? Or what if God wants to know if Angels would disobey and reproduce? Why put a tree in the garden with fruit but then say don't eat of it? It's always a test. A temptation you are able to give in to, but are not supposed to give in to.

Boo
May 17th 2013, 09:28 AM
We are confusing the appearance as men with actually being males.

When it comes to unsupported opinion, there is a lot of that going on.

keck553
May 17th 2013, 11:37 AM
We are confusing the appearance as men with actually being males.

When it comes to unsupported opinion, there is a lot of that going on.

What evidence does the Bible give you to conclude angels only appear as male? The Hebrew and Greek venacular gives them male gender, not us.

ewq1938
May 17th 2013, 09:31 PM
We are confusing the appearance as men with actually being males.

God gave us the visual ability to tell a male from a female...sure there are some androgynous people who are more difficult to tell but this is not the case with angels. They are very clearly male in form. I have seen one when I was younger. One saved my life and then disappeared suddenly. There were about 40 people present and not one of them ever saw this person or saw me nearly die.

Boo
May 18th 2013, 09:53 AM
Look, guys, it is fine with me if you see man = male as far as when an Angel appears. However, I would need to see that fallen angels appearing on Earth were permitted to become males in order to mate with the women. Since I would think that God would have to do that (as I don't think Satan has the power to) then I am confused as to why God would give the Angels the equipment to create that problem. I am wondering "out loud" so to speak. People can look like men but not be equipped for procreation. Angels have to be changed from heavenly beings to actual men before they can create this problem. I am wondering who did it and why.

If that is not a question for you, fine. It is for me.

ewq1938
May 18th 2013, 10:12 PM
Look, guys, it is fine with me if you see man = male as far as when an Angel appears. However, I would need to see that fallen angels appearing on Earth were permitted to become males in order to mate with the women.

Angels have to be changed from heavenly beings to actual men before they can create this problem. I am wondering who did it and why.


It isn't written as to why, but angels are already males and already have the ability to procreate. They do not need to go through a process to become "men". This is what I have found in the scriptures but it is not accepted by all for sure.

Brother Paul
May 18th 2013, 10:28 PM
Look, guys, it is fine with me if you see man = male as far as when an Angel appears. However, I would need to see that fallen angels appearing on Earth were permitted to become males in order to mate with the women. Since I would think that God would have to do that (as I don't think Satan has the power to) then I am confused as to why God would give the Angels the equipment to create that problem. I am wondering "out loud" so to speak. People can look like men but not be equipped for procreation. Angels have to be changed from heavenly beings to actual men before they can create this problem. I am wondering who did it and why.

If that is not a question for you, fine. It is for me.

permitted to become males in order to mate


They were not "permitted" to become males "in order to mate" they did this in rebellion against God. Now whether they were put here as men (not for this purpose) or whether this order of angels has/had this ability on their own is another topic but they clearly (if angels at all) were not permitted to do this, albeit if some are correct God would have had to have caused this since every detail and circumstance are foreordained.

There is nothing anywhere in scripture that says angels when in this form cannot procreate, neither does it say they can but if they cannot I would think they are not in the form of men but of Ken dolls. The form of a man (at least most) has functional genitalia...it is composed of cells not poly-plastics, and cells have DNA (which in Adam's case was not inherited but is by nature part of this form...however is not "man" also a generic term for humankind? When He created (not formed) "man" He created them male and female. Hmmm?

Brother Paul

Boo
May 21st 2013, 09:49 AM
It isn't written as to why, but angels are already males and already have the ability to procreate. They do not need to go through a process to become "men". This is what I have found in the scriptures but it is not accepted by all for sure.

Please show me the scriptures that told you that Angels were given the ability to mate. If you refer to the same story of the Nephilim, I'm afraid that still leaves me wanting something that tells me that we are not misunderstanding. As for saying that Angels are already "men" in heaven, then they don't need Glorified bodies to see God but we do? That kind of goes against things that I have come to understand.

Boo
May 21st 2013, 09:51 AM
permitted to become males in order to mate


They were not "permitted" to become males "in order to mate" they did this in rebellion against God. Now whether they were put here as men (not for this purpose) or whether this order of angels has/had this ability on their own is another topic but they clearly (if angels at all) were not permitted to do this, albeit if some are correct God would have had to have caused this since every detail and circumstance are foreordained.

There is nothing anywhere in scripture that says angels when in this form cannot procreate, neither does it say they can but if they cannot I would think they are not in the form of men but of Ken dolls. The form of a man (at least most) has functional genitalia...it is composed of cells not poly-plastics, and cells have DNA (which in Adam's case was not inherited but is by nature part of this form...however is not "man" also a generic term for humankind? When He created (not formed) "man" He created them male and female. Hmmm?

Brother Paul

So, Brother Paul, do you think Angels choose what they become and that they can make themselves into men with the ability to impregnate females? They did it in disobedience to God? I was not even suspecting that Angels had that ability on their own.

The Real Milk Man
Jun 6th 2013, 09:31 PM
Peace to all; Are angels divine beings??


--Psalm 82:1 (NRSV), "God has taken his place in the divine ('el-Hebrew; 'Theos'-Greek LXX) council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:"

--Psalm 82:1 (KJV), "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty ('el-Hebrew; 'Theos'-Greek LXX); he judgeth among the gods."

--Psalm 82:1 (EXB), "God ·is in charge of the great meeting [ takes his place/presides in the great assembly/or the assembly of the gods/divine council;  the angels (powers and authorities; Eph. 6:12) are here called “gods”]; he judges among the “gods”."



--Psalm 82:1 (KJV), "Theos (LXX) standeth in the congregation of the Theos (LXX); he judgeth among the Theos (LXX)."



Definition of 'el:

1. god, god-like one, mighty one
--a. mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
--b. angels
--c. god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
--d. God, the one true God, Jehovah
2. mighty things in nature
3. strength, power



Definition of Theos:

1. a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2. the Godhead, trinity
--a. God the Father, the first person in the trinity
--b. Christ, the second person of the trinity
--c. Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3. spoken of the only and true God
--a. refers to the things of God
--b. his counsels, interests, things due to him
4. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
--a. God's representative or vice-regent
------1. of magistrates and judges




There are MANY 'Theos' but, ..... - 1 Cor. 8:5-6







--Again, peace be with you.


--John 14:1, Jesus said, "Let not your hearts be troubled. You believe in 'God'; believe 'Also' in Me."

In the love of Christ, sincerely, The Real Milk Man.
God and His Son loves you, and I do too!
Whatever is the overflow of the heart, is what comes out of the mouth.

Vakeros
Jun 6th 2013, 10:07 PM
What gender are the four living creatures in Ezekiel 1:5 - they had the likeness of a man? The word Adam is used here.
Or the Seraphim in Isaiah 6:2 - he covered his face? No male word is used in this description.
Can you call a man an angel who has 6 wings or 4 wings?

Francis Drake
Jun 6th 2013, 10:24 PM
I am always amazed by all the experts on angeology on here. How many of you have actually seen an angel? How do you know what angels are capable of, or not capable of? Male? Sexless? It is amazing how much stuff gets read into the Word that isn't there.

I have.
As we were worshiping in a small church I looked up and saw an angel sitting on a chair behind the keyboard player. He had some sort of instrument on his knee playing along with the worship.

I mentioned it later to the keyboard player. She told me that as she was playing she was aware of another sound playing along with the musicians. After a few moments of puzzlement, she continued playing but slid the sustain right down, but the sounds continued as before. She then lifted her hands right off the keys and straight up in the air. Still the music continued. She suddenly swiveled right round in her seat and there was the angel sat right behind her playing his instrument.

keck553
Jun 6th 2013, 11:10 PM
Please describe the angel.

Aviyah
Jun 6th 2013, 11:14 PM
If angels are divine then Satan is a god.

I think it's pretty clear angels are not divine.

Vakeros
Jun 6th 2013, 11:29 PM
If angels are divine then Satan is a god.

I think it's pretty clear angels are not divine.
Depends on the understanding of divine. God-like, celestial, heavenly are synonyms. Are angels celestial or heavenly beings? Yes, thus they are divine. Are they God-like? I would argue the answer is again yes, they even get called Sons of God and Messengers of God. We too can be God-like and can be called divine. But we aren't always.

The Real Milk Man
Jun 7th 2013, 01:20 AM
Depends on the understanding of divine. God-like, celestial, heavenly are synonyms. Are angels celestial or heavenly beings? Yes, thus they are divine. Are they God-like? I would argue the answer is again yes, they even get called Sons of God and Messengers of God. We too can be God-like and can be called divine. But we aren't always.


Matthew 13:16 :)

Aviyah
Jun 7th 2013, 02:00 AM
Depends on the understanding of divine. God-like, celestial, heavenly are synonyms. Are angels celestial or heavenly beings? Yes, thus they are divine. Are they God-like? I would argue the answer is again yes, they even get called Sons of God and Messengers of God. We too can be God-like and can be called divine. But we aren't always.

I've always thought it was simply an adjective for a god or deity. Perhaps it depends on the speaker then :)