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Brother James
Nov 14th 2004, 02:55 AM
Forgive me for bringing up an old topic, but I've been reading through old topics and I have a couple of questions/comments on this old thread (from 2002).

First, let me say that I'm now 47 years old which doesn't mean anything really. But I once was an adolescent young person and I was taught that mas**ation was a sin. That seemed to be the consensus in the previous thread on the subject. I had a lot of guilt and shame as a young person over this issue. I'd promise God if He's forgive me, I'd never do THAT again. Well, you know the story.

It seems to me that mas***ation is a nearly universal experience for adolescent young men. Yet the Bible does not seem to explicitly deal with this directly. That strikes me as odd, especially if it is a sin. I can't find a direct reference to this behavior anywhere in the Bible. It seems to me that if something so universal was also a sin, it would be mentioned along with hom****ality, adultery, etc.

The Bible does speak about lust. Jesus equated lusting after a woman as being the moral equivalent of adultery. I usually think of lust as having a licentious aspect to it. For example, se*ual desire for my wife is not lust. Fantasies about my wife would not be lust either.

I guess my comment on all this is that I'm not at all sure that mas****ation is sin. It certainly seems to be a better way of diverting se*ual energy away from fornication and the creation of another life irresponsibly. I know some will disagree with me, but do reflect on the overwhelming guilt that is often laid at the feet of young people over this issue. My guilt was so overwhelming that for a long long time I rejected God and decided to do what ever I wanted to do - which was a very self-destructive path, and not at all the way to deal with such feelings. But that was me and my path. I do feel conern for other young people who are told it is sin and are expected not to do it.

Later in life, I do believe it can be a destructive behavior that robs a relationship of the kind of intensity and desire that are healthy to a good marriage. It can be a self-centered obsession. So can eating or anything else for that matter. I guess I just would like to hear other thoughts, either in agreement or disagreeing with what I've said here.

FPG
Nov 14th 2004, 03:56 AM
Well with the definition of lu*t being:
Intense or unrestrained se*ual craving.I don't know how you could consider m*st*rb*tion anything but lu*t. It's designed to satisfy your intense or unrestrained se*ual craving. Same thing as po**ography. While I understand that you ran away from God because of guilt, I don't think that your understanding of forgiveness was very firm. God forgives us for everything we've done, and he knows that we'll probably sin again. We're human, and we're going to mess up. All of the self guilt you had was very understandable, but you didn't have to feel that way because God had already forgiven you! All you had to was accept it.

brianspro
Nov 14th 2004, 04:23 AM
You think you had it bad with the whole M guilt thing? In the Mormon church, we would have at least yearly "worthiness" interviews with the Bishop (the local minister) as a youth and as an adult if we wanted a "temple recommend" to do temple worship. It is basically a confessional where you are asked if you are keeping various commandments and encouraged to confess and repent... especially if it was a se*ual morality sin. I was asked almost every time the blunt question of "Do you mas****ate?" We were told that the Bishops had the gift of discernment and could tell if you were lying. So, I always felt compelled to confess of this "terrible sin" (se*ual sins were viewed as next to murder). I would promise to stop and he would give a penance of being on "probation" and not able to partake of the Lord's Supper (due to unworthiness... based on the Bible verse about being damned if you do unworthily). Of course, this would last maybe a week or two, and then I would fall into temptation again.

I always felt SO guilty and thought I was the only weak person who had this problem. I was so bothered by it during my college years that I visited the campus psychologist and told him what a bad person I was and asked him to cure me from this illness. He was not the least bit concerned about mas****ation and told me that almost everyone does it at some point in their life (part of adolesence); but he was very concerned about my low self-esteem and why a church would cause me to feel so bad about such a natural thing. Of course, I blew him off -- thinking he was a heretic and a tool of Satan for not condemning me of such a horrible sin -- and never went back to him again.

Now that I no longer believe the LDS church is the "one true church" with exclusive "priesthood authority" and "God's Kingdom on earth", I am angry at how abusive these interviews really were! :mad:

SammeyDW
Nov 14th 2004, 04:36 AM
The main problems with p*rn , and m*st*rb*ti*n that I can see are.

1) They are totally self-centered.
2) They take your focus (time, energy,mind,etc.) away from God.

FPG
Nov 14th 2004, 04:47 AM
What about the skewed women that's developed as a result of looking at p*rn? I'd say that's pretty bad too..

SammeyDW
Nov 14th 2004, 12:49 PM
If you are talking about the damaged image of men / women / s*x,
That is part of what I tried to convey.
They problem being that because p*rn , and m*st*rb*ti*n are so self-centered it is not long before you are tempted to start to thinking along the lines of "They must be all for my pleasure whether they are real or not." , and making the other person second, that is IF you still even think or care what they feel. :(

roadrunner570
Nov 14th 2004, 01:50 PM
If you are talking about the damaged image of men / women / s*x,
That is part of what I tried to convey.
They problem being that because p*rn , and m*st*rb*ti*n are so self-centered it is not long before you are tempted to start to thinking along the lines of "They must be all for my pleasure whether they are real or not." , and making the other person second, that is IF you still even think or care what they feel. :(If I may weigh in on this. I'm a recovering s*x addict. Po*n and mas****ation has been a problem for me since I was a teenager. My wife has worked with people with my problems, so she has been helping me overcome it. One thing she talked about was healthy M*s*t*r*b*t*N opposed to unhealthy. Healthy being, doing it for less than 10 minutes, not watching porn or anything, as opposed to viewing porn and creating all kinds of fantasies. For someone recovering from this, its not something often that can be just stopped. The urge builds up. For me, its like relieving a pressure cooker. In the past when I tried to just stop, after a week, I'd be so built up, I'd completely relapse, and then give up. Now, using this method and with the grace of God, I haven't viewed po*n or M'd compulsively for 2 weeks. I know God works differently in people's lives and will sometimes just free someone from an addiction, but some of us take a little longer and with God's help, will do it, but in his time, not ours.

FPG
Nov 15th 2004, 12:27 AM
Healthy m*st*rb*tion.. that still seems like sin to me. While not going into the "benefits" of m*st*rb*tion, Sin is sin is sin is sin to God. I can't see how one could classify "normal m*st*rb*tion" as sin and "healthy m*st*rb*tion" as an ok part of your lifestyle, when they're comprised of the same basic principle, lust. Lust, and feelings from lust have been often associated with bigger problems of the heart. Saturating your mind with God and his word will help you overcome these urges. Lust isn't like nicotine, you can take small doses in hopes of eventually not taking any at all. You need to completely overhaul your lifestyle and give it to God. He has the power, rely on it.

BTW: If you're married, why would you need to m*st*rb*te in order to relieve s*x*al tension? S*x is something you're meant to share with your life partner, and you have one.. :hmm:

roadrunner570
Nov 15th 2004, 02:33 AM
Healthy m*st*rb*tion.. that still seems like sin to me. While not going into the "benefits" of m*st*rb*tion, Sin is sin is sin is sin to God. I can't see how one could classify "normal m*st*rb*tion" as sin and "healthy m*st*rb*tion" as an ok part of your lifestyle, when they're comprised of the same basic principle, lust. Lust, and feelings from lust have been often associated with bigger problems of the heart. Saturating your mind with God and his word will help you overcome these urges. Lust isn't like nicotine, you can take small doses in hopes of eventually not taking any at all. You need to completely overhaul your lifestyle and give it to God. He has the power, rely on it.

BTW: If you're married, why would you need to m*st*rb*te in order to relieve s*x*al tension? S*x is something you're meant to share with your life partner, and you have one.. :hmm:
My family has a history of addictive behavior. Its not about the lust, or anything else, its about the rush you get during the event and the control you feel as well. Just because there is no chemical involved, doesn't mean its not addictive. Its condemning answers like this that chased me away from God when I was young. No one really wanted to help, they just told me to pray and read my bible, but that didn't work, no matter how hard I tried.

Now, I have a support group of other sex addicts, a counselor, and my wife helping me. All of whom God has provided for me to get me through this. For anyone who has never dealt with this addiction, your not likely to understand. Please don't be so quickly to rush to judge others. I pray to God everyday to take this addiction from me, and each day I stay clean is a victory. But I'll never be "cured" I have to keep that in mind. I just have to walk with God, and trust in him and listen to the advice of the people he's provided to me.

Brother James
Nov 15th 2004, 02:40 AM
I understand that most of you believe it to be wrong. What I'm asking is if it is such a sin, and if it is so universal among adolescent males, why is there no mention of it in the Bible? If the Bible is silent on a topic, how do we discern that a behavior is a sin?

As far as taking the focus off of God, that can be true of money, food, and countless other things. Saying that is "seems like a sin" is a little dicey for me because I don't think we can turn to other people to decide what God says is sin. I believe we need to be able to rely on God's Holy Word. As far as P*rn (sorry, I'm new here and not used to your convention of using * so as not to actually spell words with a connection so things s*xual) goes that seems to me to be an entirely different thing.

What I think would be a travesty would be to load down a young person with guilt over something that I only "think" might be a sin, but which is not identified as sin in the Bible. That is dangerous ground and definitely unscriptural. Too many times this has happened where God was not behind it at all. The Catholic church requires celibacy of priests and nuns and that is not scriptural. Eating fish on Friday was a sin, and that is not scriptural either.

I'm just trying to get to the "why" of the teaching that it is a sin, not the "feelings" of it as I don't believe we can base our faith on feelings.

Brother James
Nov 15th 2004, 02:45 AM
By the way, I just found the post in the rules forum about why "*" is uses so that words like p*rn don't get caught up in the search engines. Clever solution. Now I understand. Sorry my original post didn't reflect that.

Brother James
Nov 15th 2004, 02:47 AM
BTW: If you're married, why would you need to m*st*rb*te in order to relieve s*x*al tension? S*x is something you're meant to share with your life partner, and you have one.. :hmm:
Perhaps while on a two-week business trip? Sickness? Many possible issues. But as an ongoing thing, no, I think it's a bad idea because it interferes with a healthy relationship. That energy should be for one's spouse. But just because something is a bad idea doesn't make it a sin - just like the second donut.

Maleforchrist
Nov 15th 2004, 03:32 AM
It is not clearly addressed in the bible...Single christians have the same desires as non christian especially in the teen years.. Im a christian and I try not to do it because it might be wrong. But after trying not to do it for a long period of time I often slip and do it again. I dont know if its sin or not. I have asked God to help me find a wife so that I can share this desire with someone in an environment where I know that it is pleasing in his sight. Im 32 and Im not married or even close to being married right now. It is tough at times...I feel sorry for a christian teen girl or guy who is going through a period where there Hormones are raging. What are they supposed to do?

FPG
Nov 15th 2004, 03:46 AM
My family has a history of addictive behavior. Its not about the lust, or anything else, its about the rush you get during the event and the control you feel as well. Just because there is no chemical involved, doesn't mean its not addictive. Its condemning answers like this that chased me away from God when I was young. No one really wanted to help, they just told me to pray and read my bible, but that didn't work, no matter how hard I tried.

I don't believe that. I can't accept the fact of you saying that after earnestly seeking and praying to God, that it wouldn't help no matter how hard you tried. God can do anything, and it says in the Bible that he'll never allow you to be tempted more than what you can bear. Support Groups are awesome and so is your wife helping out like this, but I believe if you fully rely on God, he'll be the one to save you from this lifestyle. I'm not sure if that's a denominational thing, but I've always been taught to rely on God's power.



Now, I have a support group of other sex addicts, a counselor, and my wife helping me. All of whom God has provided for me to get me through this. For anyone who has never dealt with this addiction, your not likely to understand.


While it's true I'm not addicted to sex, nor ever been, let me fill you in on some things. I'm an 18 year old male, so I know a "little" bit about sexual temptation. Don't be quick to assume I'm some bystander on this issue, we're in this together ok ;). I feel the same pressure and temptation as you.



Please don't be so quickly to rush to judge others. I pray to God everyday to take this addiction from me, and each day I stay clean is a victory. But I'll never be "cured" I have to keep that in mind. I just have to walk with God, and trust in him and listen to the advice of the people he's provided to me.

I'm not judging, or at least I'm not intentionally judging, I guess it's a little hard to understand exactly the tone of my words since we're over the internet, but I'm sorry if what I said alluded to judging. I'm at no place to Judge, because like I've said, we're more alike than you think. But something about your last paragraph bothers me. You say you'll never be cured. I disagree with that. Many have fully recovered from Sex Addictions, and I don't think you can consider yourself a special case. Praying and Studying the word of God, and saturating your mind with him will help you beat this addiction. You're going to screw up sometimes, almost every guy does at one point or another, but with God's help you can not only lesson the addiction, I believe that you can beat it, to the point that you'll never need to participate in m*st*rbation again. Keep God by your side, and nothing is impossible :pray:

roadrunner570
Nov 15th 2004, 04:09 AM
I don't believe that. I can't accept the fact of you saying that after earnestly seeking and praying to God, that it wouldn't help no matter how hard you tried. God can do anything, and it says in the Bible that he'll never allow you to be tempted more than what you can bear. Support Groups are awesome and so is your wife helping out like this, but I believe if you fully rely on God, he'll be the one to save you from this lifestyle. I'm not sure if that's a denominational thing, but I've always been taught to rely on God's power.

I am relying on God's power, and its working. I don't believe God works the same way in every person every time. As far as the support groups and others, they are the lifeboats God has sent to me. Thati s God's power, to work in our lives in different ways.



While it's true I'm not addicted to sex, nor ever been, let me fill you in on some things. I'm an 18 year old male, so I know a "little" bit about sexual temptation. Don't be quick to assume I'm some bystander on this issue, we're in this together ok ;). I feel the same pressure and temptation as you.

I don't know if I'd say that, I've been struggling with this since i was 12 or 13, and I"m 30 now. There are a lot of things involved and years of frustration and failure. Unless you've experienced it first hand, you really don't know. No more than I know what its like to be a drug addict or alcoholic.


You say you'll never be cured. I disagree with that. Many have fully recovered from Sex Addictions, and I don't think you can consider yourself a special case.
With ANY addiction, you are never "cured" but you are always "in recovery" this will always be something I need to guard against. It is my greatest weakness. With God's help, I know I don' t have to give in to it.

To be honest, I don't even know why we're having this conversation. I"ve already acknowledged that I have a problem and am taking great steps to beating it, and am allowing God to work in my life so I can stop. It sounds like you don't approve of the help God has provided to me.

FPG
Nov 15th 2004, 05:30 AM
I don't know why either, I think we're saying pretty much the same thing in that with God's power you can get better. In regards to my last post, I was thinking you meant that you'd never be able to win over sin and that you'd continue to involve yourself in it, but that's not what you meant, sorrry :blush: .

In regards to this quote:


It sounds like you don't approve of the help God has provided to me.
I said this earlier..


Support Groups are awesome and so is your wife helping out like this, but I believe if you fully rely on God, he'll be the one to save you from this lifestyle.
To be more clear, I meant that while your support groups and you wife are a huge help, the healing ultimately comes from God. Again I must've missed the lines here, I didn't realize that your sex addict groups had a Godly focus :blush: .

Next time, I'll visit the forums when I'm awake :rolleyes:

Sorry for the confusion roadrunner.. :spin:

lbeaty1981
Nov 15th 2004, 02:42 PM
I don't believe that. I can't accept the fact of you saying that after earnestly seeking and praying to God, that it wouldn't help no matter how hard you tried. God can do anything, and it says in the Bible that he'll never allow you to be tempted more than what you can bear. Support Groups are awesome and so is your wife helping out like this, but I believe if you fully rely on God, he'll be the one to save you from this lifestyle. I'm not sure if that's a denominational thing, but I've always been taught to rely on God's power.
I've always interpreted this verse in a different way. To me, the temptation is pre-marital s*x and lusting after others. Mas****ation is a tool that can be used to help keep these urges under control. Like anything else, it can lead to sin if you're not careful, but it can also be a great tool in preventing se*ual sin. For those who argue that it takes away from one's time with God, the same thing could be said about watching TV, reading a book, or going to a movie. As long as one never crosses over into addiction/obsession, we have a great amount of freedom in our faith :)

Steve M
Nov 15th 2004, 03:24 PM
The scripture: Genesis 38, the sin of Onan. http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ge+38&version=csb&showtools=0

This is traditionally the scripture that the Catholic church and many Protestants use to condemn any sex that doesn't result in childbearing (including con#oms, the pill, etc.).

Onan was struck by God for "spilling his seed". Indelicate, but that's what the Bible says.

However, in context; Onan was struck dead for trying to steal from his dead brother. He knew that if he gave his dead brother's wife Tamar an heir then his brother's inheritance would pass from him to the child...and he wanted the inheritance.

This is the traditional proof text on mas****bation, but I don't think we can draw a conclusion based on this scripture, as it has been, IMO, misinterpreted.

roadrunner570
Nov 15th 2004, 05:18 PM
I don't know why either, I think we're saying pretty much the same thing in that with God's power you can get better. In regards to my last post, I was thinking you meant that you'd never be able to win over sin and that you'd continue to involve yourself in it, but that's not what you meant, sorrry :blush: .

In regards to this quote:

I said this earlier..


To be more clear, I meant that while your support groups and you wife are a huge help, the healing ultimately comes from God. Again I must've missed the lines here, I didn't realize that your sex addict groups had a Godly focus :blush: .

Next time, I'll visit the forums when I'm awake :rolleyes:

Sorry for the confusion roadrunner.. :spin:
No problem, it can be hard to interpret someone's typed words at times, especially when tired :D

irlandes
Nov 21st 2004, 04:18 AM
Because the views of most men on this forum are so far from mine I suppose I should stop coming here at all. Sometimes I feel we are not on the same planet with the same Bible and the Same Jesus... For example, when I told of the pre-marital tests created by Conservative Christian organizations, not secular humanists, to predict and thus reduce divorce among Christian couples who have the same divorce rate as non-Christians, and someone responded the best test is the Bible. Say what? If that were the case, there would be much fewer divorced Christians, whether you believe it or not, not all of Christians fail to pray or read the Bible. When you are thinking of marrying, you need professional help just as the sick Christians mostly go to doctors when they are sick.

I feel somewhat the same way on this topic. God didn't make us to fail. Whether you know it or not, the reason for m***n is your male hormones. They depend much upon the quantity of se*ual liquids in your seminal vessicles. When those suckers get full, which depends upon your age, your hormone levels are sky high whether you read the Bible and pray or not. For most men, I am not going to say all, things start throbbing, and 'clamping' in a very explicit way, whether you are praying or not. It is the natural biological function of the male body as God made it. Women have assured me their monthly cleaning is not so totally erotic, maybe not at all, though I am forced to take their word for this. Does that mean women don't sin because of their natural biological cycles, but men do? I think not. That concept that males are basically evil comes not from God but from Satan.

And, there is no non-se*ual way to empty those vessicles. Even if you resist, and they empty in your sleep, you will have an erot*c dream, whether you pray hard or not, and no matter how much you read the Bible. Erot'c dreams are pure l*st whether you ask for them or not.

So, the only other way to empty them is M'n. So, that means because our natural body functions involve erot'c events, we are automatically committing sin? You know, I don't think so, and I think Brother James is correct that if it it ain't in the Bible, even though it is an almost universal male experience, there is a lot of guilt being forced on people for no valid reason. Those of you who think it's sin, well, for you, I agree it's sin, but leave my sons and grandsons out of it.

And, I agree with the man who says it reduces fornication. Some years ago, a sociologist studied the topic, and he said M/n was a predictor of eventual social class. Those who did it were likely to continue their education and move into the middle class, or stay there. Those who did not do it got involved with girls, got them pregnant, and ended up halting their education and falling into the lower classes.

As far as the man coming then leaving, it might well be a reasonable response to the other postings.

Oh, before I forget, married men may be 'cut-off' by wives for a variety of reasons, some valid such as monthly cycles, some from plain ornriness. Let me say it again. Christians get divorced over 50% of the time. It reeks to me of "thank thee oh lord that I am not a sinner like these" to assume just because you do not have a problem in your life that no one else should have it, unless it is his own fault.

Maleforchrist
Nov 21st 2004, 05:55 AM
I am 33 yrs old and I have been a christian for almost 2 and a half years now. I have prayed and prayed for God to take my sexual desire away. I also read the bible at least twice a day if not more. I have put my trust in Jesus Christ completely. I dont lust after woman. I try to be as obedient as possible. But the desire never goes away. I have beat myself up because I try to stop doing it but I always slip and do it again. God made us with sexual desires.. Did he forget to tell us whether or not it is a sin to m*&t**e or not? I have read the bible 3 times from cover to cover and I cant find it. I havnt slept with anyone since I became a christian . I want to wait until I get married since I have been born again. I am praying for a wife. I have been waiting for a long time. I am afraid sometimes that God is mad at me because I M*&s*&e. And that he is not going to bring me a wife until I stop doing it. But the desire always comes back. :(
I wonder is this a sin or not? I always repent after I do it. I dont know..... You made some good points irlandes. thanks for your insight.

roadrunner570
Nov 21st 2004, 06:45 PM
I agree completely with you Irlandes.



Maleforchrist, don't ask God to take away the gifts he gave you. He made us this way for a reason. The Bible never specifically condemns it, and I don't see how it is a sin, unless it is abused, just like anything else. Like I said before, if you don't take control of your desires, harness them and use them properly, they will control you.

Steve M
Nov 21st 2004, 11:03 PM
Because the views of most men on this forum are so far from mine I suppose I should stop coming here at all.
Oh, don't say that. We wouldn't have any fun at all if we all thought the same thing. Why, I'm sure even the firmest and staunchest believers in just war like having me around just so they'll have something to argue about.


Sometimes I feel we are not on the same planet with the same Bible...
Hm.... or the same English language, sometimes.



I feel somewhat the same way on this topic. God didn't make us to fail.

By which you mean God didn't make man so that he couldn't go to heaven just from the way he is?

But isn't that a central tenet of Calvinism? That man is utterly sinful and unable to get to heaven without God's help? (not a Calvinist, so help me out here...


That concept that males are basically evil comes not from God but from Satan.

...all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God?


[snip]...there is a lot of guilt being forced on people for no valid reason.

That's very true. As I said above, the best defense of the no-m***ion crowd is in a blatant misinterpretation of a scripture.

Now, I do think there is a line between m***ion and lusting after women that we need to think about for a moment.

There, I'm done thinking. Somebody else think about that a while longer.


Those of you who think it's sin, well, for you, I agree it's sin, but leave my sons and grandsons out of it.

And, I agree with the man who says it reduces fornication. Some years ago, a sociologist studied the topic, and he said M/n was a predictor of eventual social class. Those who did it were likely to continue their education and move into the middle class, or stay there. Those who did not do it got involved with girls, got them pregnant, and ended up halting their education and falling into the lower classes.

...not that there's anything wrong with the lower classes...



As far as the man coming then leaving, it might well be a reasonable response to the other postings.

....what exactly do you mean by that? I'm not certain I understand that.


Let me say it again. Christians get divorced over 50% of the time. It reeks to me of "thank thee oh lord that I am not a sinner like these" to assume just because you do not have a problem in your life that no one else should have it, unless it is his own fault.
Um, that's kind of harsh. Hypocrisy is a serious charge. Please try not to paint your Christian brethren with such a broad brush.

Fountain
Nov 22nd 2004, 06:42 AM
I don't feel like I'm sinning at all when I mas**rbate (which occurs 3-5 times a year at the very most). The ony time I was ever really interested in mas**rbation is when I was in my mid teens, but even then it wasn't with the frequency that some of my friends reported.

But then I don't fantasize about women, sex, or anything sexual at all when I do it. In fact, about half of the times I do mas**rbate, I'm flaccid. Totaly unaroused. I find it to be a great stress reliever, and it has helped me maintain my stamina with my wife during our man-wife sessions. It means a great deal to me, being able to satisfy her. My single greatest se*ual vice might be my obsession with not being able to do this as well as I'd like, though I have absolutely no reason to feel this way.

Adult material, photogrphs and movies, has been mentioned in this thread. I feel like intent means something. I do believe that the human body is beautiful and not something to be ashamed of. I don't look at these materials or movies, but I will pick up a book in a bookstore from time to time and look at photos of both men and women in the buff. There's nothing at all sexual about it. I merely like to notice things, like the naval, the shape of the belly, how the knee looks. My wife says I'm abormal in this, she says most men she's ever known aren't at all like I am about sexual things, but I suspect that I may not be in as small a minority as she thinks.

Perhaps a few of the worst things about this kind of material is that it makes it more likely for a man or woman to fantasize about someone else, and eventually craving a sinful experience; distorting a man's image in the fashion of planting images of women with abnormally large breasts, abnormally thing, abnormally attractive, and his own image of his own organ--making him feel as if he isn't meeting some standard or norm, and likewise for women, making her feel that she is too fat, ugly, small in the chest, or that her husband is too small in the pants.

I do believe it is sinful to practice unfaithfulness of the heart and mind, that is, to fantasize about another woman (or man, if you're a lady). I would be destroyed and trully feel as if I had been cheated on if I found out that my wife had adult fantasies about other men, especially if she pleasuered herself while doing it (or fantasized while being intimate with me).

Brother James
Nov 22nd 2004, 09:08 PM
Maleforchrist, it is for the reasons that you cited that I initiated this topic. I believe there are many men who suffer horrible guilt over something they are terribly ashamed of and that they fear is a sin. The Bible is oddly silent about it. It may be a matter of personal conviction. It may be that it is not a sin at all, but a mechanism provided by God when He designed us to avoid sin. I don't have a real answer, but I know that the guilt and shame are not of God. I would never tell someone it is a sin without scriptural backup because I would fear that I was placing a stumbling block in their path.

Yes, many men suffer from addiction to p*rn*gr*phy. Many lust constantly and are addicted to s*x. Some go to further extremes of pervers*on. This is what I think mixes us up so much. If m*st*rb*ti*n causes obsession to set in, it is wrong. But in and of itself, I don't see how to make something a sin that the Bible does not say is a sin. The Bible is not bashful about calling out the sins of the heart, the body, the mouth, etc.

lbeaty1981
Nov 22nd 2004, 10:51 PM
Well said, Brother James. Very well said, indeed. :)

Herbert
Nov 27th 2004, 10:02 AM
The reality is none of us will ever achieve a sinless state on this earth till Jesus returns. But I am encouraged by the level of commitment the men of this thread are making to come close to perfection. Despite the confusion and stress of this topic, the bottom line is God knows our hearts and can see those who are trying their best to follow him......m**tur***i*g or otherwise.

God bless you guys immensely for that. You sound like Christlike men.

JareXP
Nov 28th 2004, 01:07 AM
God bless you all!! ...

I'll be straight up, i came here looking for help because after 2.5 - 3 Week's without mastu***ating, i dont know why i did it now ... While typing ill spread my thought by numbering them .... anyways

1) I'll do what my pastor sais, if he says not to mast**ate then i won't, because most of the time god speaks by means of our pastors. And if when jesus comes i later find out that masturb**on is not wrong, then god will know that its the pastors fault and hell judge the pastor then ... I think this is the BEST way to do it ...

2) Do a research on the word " Fornication " - Yu'll later find out that it's defined (in greek and those other languages) they will mean different things such as Mastur**ion, Por**aphy, Adultry and so on a so forth. Look into it, thats what my pastor told me, and he managed to give me one word in anoather language that actually meant mas***ation i believe. LOOK INTO IT ...

Mas***bation is wrong!! ... LOL

Now i will also try to do research on my own and i will be more than glad to post it ... just remember Our god is mercyfull, ... let's set an example ... If god thinks mastu***ion is wrong, and then you tell god, " Father, the bible doesn't say i can't do it, then why shouldn't i ... the bible says practically every sin, except for Mas**ation ... So i assumed that its not wrong, as long it's not Lust and as long as its not porno**aphy (Picture-ing Se*al things) ... ... he'll understand, he's mercyfull ... if by the time jesus get here no one came up to you with valid info ... It's not your fault ...


3) " The bible doesn't say you shouldn't eat poop ... then go ahead eat it "...
" The Bible doesn't say we shouldn't mast**bate . then go ahead eat it " ...
We are NEW! men in christ, we walk in spirit, the holy spirit has sealed us with salvation, he speaks to us ... We should know better, before you ma**bate dont you get a feeling that it's wrong ?? I bet you do, then wouldn't that be the holy spirit speaking ?? OF CORSE IT IS ...

To start with Mas**bation = FLESH, it's a Se*ual Desire, It's FLESHY.

I know it definetly wouldn't be satan throwing darts telling you NOT to ma***e, Why ? Because it's all flesh, when you want to curse or do something flesh type, god tells you to go to holy spirit for help ... Don't try to rebuke satan, because it's not satan its the flesh ... So when something is fleshy, it'll be the holy ghost whom will try to convince you not to do it or something.
Think about it hard, why wouldn't satan want us to ma***rbate ... exactly so that tingling sence or that lil feeling we get that tells us not to do it ... It's the holy spirit .. remember we are Temple of the holy spirit ... He speak to us, he feels, he talks .... And also, After we finish mas***bating dont you feel soooooo guilty, and you just want to get on your knees and repent ... THATS THE HOLY SPIRIT SPEAKING, putting that thought in you ... I'm only a 15 y/o 3 month old christian - evangelical ...

Some guy told me when he mast***tes he doesn't think anything se*ual. Ok good for you that might mean your strong spiritual and can rebuke the sex*al desires of the flesh, but your still doing something wrong because what are the chances that Satan might use you mastu**ting as you being in a weak state ... vulnarable i think ? (im not good with my vocab's), he's going to take advantage and put Por*n in your head, satan is stupid but not that stupid ... So when you mastu***te your still opening the door for satan, your telling satan ... " Although i dont want you to come in, come in if you want to .. "

WE AS NEW MEN, born in christ, now walk in Spirit and in truth, we would know when it's Satan ...

I dare you to tell me i don't make sence, because it all makes sence! ...

Also why dont we just pray and read the bible and meditate the word instead of mastu***ting, it's a waste of time especially when we don't know if it's wrong or right ...

Let me set an example. Your outside in a city, but your New to the city so you dont know anything. Trying to get to a friends house, alone, but your eyes are sealed (you can't see), now somebody told you that this city is dangerous at night and it's surrounded by a river, but somebody else tells you it's ok in the city dont worry you can do whatever even in the night time. What are you going to do walk without knowing where your going and if your near the river you might fall and die, or just stand there and ask god for help ?

Well i would stand there and ask god for help ... I would ask god to answer my question on ... Is mas***bation wrong or right even if theres not enough evidence to back up either of the two thoughs. Personally if your always at church and you pay attention to your serive, then god has already answered your question ... MASTU**BATION is wrong, just like your pastor says it is ... During serive its the holy spirit whom is speaking through the pastor, if not the pastor wouldn't be a ... pastor.


I would appreciate feedbacks ... Thank you !!

God bless!!

I HAVE SOOOO MANY THOUGHT BUT THEY COME AND GO ...

SillySam
Nov 28th 2004, 04:03 AM
Well, here's my take on the issues. When i was in High School, I used to work at a video store where you could rent p**n. A lot of different kinds of people would rent these movies, people who just turned 18, married people etc. But, the people that kept coming back time and time again were the people without wives or girlfriends. Some of these guys wouldn't seem very "attractive" to the opposite sex. I felt bad for them, as everyone has these type of feelings. Since there was no one they could share them with, I thought it was okay that they could use it in this way. You may say "they weren't trying hard enough to find someone" or something like that, but most of these guys did have some sort of "problem" like cross eyed or speech impediments that would definetly hurt their chances of finding someone. So, if they were 30-40 or older and had never had someone, I thought this was a good way to go. Well, I've put in my 2 cents, time to do some more homework.

kranich
Nov 28th 2004, 04:54 AM
I do not think it is necessarily wrong. The practice usually is but not always. You cannot be so absolute about everything. There are acceptable methods of masterbation in my opinion.

flinchn
Nov 28th 2004, 05:51 PM
i have consistently felt that porn***hy/mas***ation has been a stumbling block to true communion with Jesus

i am divorced, 29, have a good career and fairly attractive - but no current prospects, and i'm extremely picky when they do come along (getting divorced and breaking that all-important vow to God makes one so, necessarily - i do not want to face that shame again)

it is clear to me how damaging porn**phy and ritual mastu***n can be to a relationship, but like the rest of you, i find myself struggling with the nature of it while being single

the depths of hell in which most of these people live while posing for porno**aphic pictures/movies should be enough to convince anyone that it is wrong - my last straw involved a recent america's most wanted investigation which traced a kidnapped fugitive through a porn website

these "amateur" actresses are often coerced to do these things, in many cases, and i can think of very few things more sinful for myself than to derive se*al pleasure from these situations

we all know po*n addiction can lead to many aberrant se*ual behaviors and even crime - i think it is safe to deem mastrubating to por***raphy as something that is best absent from my life

however, imagining fantasies in your own mind while mast***ting usually involves thoughts of lust for those women close to you (accessible)
coveting your neighbor's wife is most assuredly a sin, even if the aspects of lust are debatable

this kind of obsession may even lead to more personal and deviant thoughts of possession and conquering, even rape fantasies, not of nameless, anonymous actresses but of women you encounter EACH DAY

i applaud those of you who have developed a way to handle the situation by finding some blank-thought, non-fantasy way of masturbating - but this would be a waste of time for me, i'm working on total abstinence :pray: for purity of thought reasons, moreso than my judgment of the single act, in a vacuum, being sinful


so why does God compel us men, (and women) who are not in a relationship which is sanctioned by His will, to relieve their intense sexual tension manually? (and in what world are some of you in, my urges are perhaps more powerful at 29 as they were at 19!)

well, as with everything - if we had no temptations, what need would there be for God's grace and unfailing love?

and for the rest of the singles in this thread - sometimes when i find myself lonely for my eventual soulmate's companionship, it is because i am not paying any attention to the love God embraces me with, to which even the most cherished and true love on earth is just a faint echo

JareXP
Nov 29th 2004, 02:33 AM
Explain yourself please ... Kranich

Maleforchrist
Nov 29th 2004, 02:48 AM
I find for myself that sometimes I feel hopeless or lonely . Especially at night when I go to bed. I often pray as I fall off to sleep. Those of you who come here often know that I am having financial difficulty. I have been praying for a wife for a long time. And with my financial situation sometimes I think to myself who will want a man who is broke. I know that God is all powerful But we are also human and have human emotions. Im not saying that we should sin because we are human. But rather what do you do when you are trusting God and being obedient and not lusting after women? Walking with Jesus daily and talking to him daily and reading your bible everyday yet things still seem to be hopeless? I find that Ma$!%^ing without P*&n helps me to sleep And lowers my S&*ual drive. I would love to be married. I wouldnt do it at all if I was married. But what about when you dont have a wife and you really want a marriage relationship thats pleasing to God?
I beleive that most of the single christian guys here only want one wife and to be in a marriage relationship that is pleasing to God. We are not like the world who only want to find someone or a group of people just to sleep with.
Also every person is created differently. We dont all have the same level of Desire? Just my thoughts....

kranich
Nov 29th 2004, 02:53 AM
Explain yourself please ... Kranich

Look, I am just saying tht masterbation itself is not necesarily always a sin. It is the thoughts behind it and the motivations that are sinful.

JareXP
Nov 29th 2004, 05:23 AM
Kranich - Oh ok, i just thought there was more behind what you typed.

Hehe, ...

But, Listen you guys, what if mas***bation is wrong ... It's not going to go so well because god will confront you and tell you ... " Your pastor told you is was bad, then why did you do it ... " ... Yea the Lord is our shepherd, but who is he relying on to spread the word, the PASTOR, so whatever your pastor says is what it is ... Don't do it ...

Also, if you think it's bad at time then why do you do it ... If you don't know if its bad or not then why do you do it ?

Trust me if you were strong enough you could get through it, because i know ALOT of young men who DONT mast**bate and used to be Mastu**ating geeks, and haven't mastur**ed in about 1 year or so.

Please, look onto the lord for an answer.

God bless you All ... Feedbacks shall be appreciated .. :-)

MaleforChrist - Mastur**ion without po*n, i think i know what you mean, i have done it, but let me ask you ... You mas**rbate without putting PO*N on ... but aren't you thinking of something dealing with po*n in your mind ?


-Felix

Also

JareXP
Nov 29th 2004, 05:31 AM
This is an Extremely Interesting article, please analyse it and tell me what yall think of it ... IF YOU REALLY CARE about wether mat**bation is wrong or right, please read!





108. Mas**bation: The Little Known Sin of Auto-Homo**exuality by Stanislaw Królewiec


As Yahweh vigorously sets about cleaning up the Body of Christ (Messianic Community) in preparation for the full separation of the wheat from the tares, and in particular separates those truly called into polygamy from those who are not, it behooves me to turn the spotlight of revelation on yet another sin which is definitely impairing the full functioning of the Body, namely mast*rbation. Mas***bation is auto-e**ticism or self-stimulation. Until the se*ual revolution of the 1960's there was an unwritten law against this practice, a taboo if you like. Then the liberals told us that there was nothing wrong with it and that it was a perfectly "natural" form of se*ual release, especially for those who were unmarried. In time, it became very much a part of the se*xual "scene", with increasing numbers of churches yielding and minimising the seriousness of this transgression. Nowadays most people, including Christians, think nothing of it. Our own Order received a revelation on this subject some years ago warning of the adulterous and idolatrous aspects of homo**xuality. But I didn't realise that mas**rbation was a form of homo**xuality until Yahweh revealed it to me in a graphic dream two nights ago which I do not propose to share here other than to summarise its basic message. "Onanism" is the polite term we often use for mast**rbation and is used interchangeably with it though strictly speaking the sin of Onan had nothing directlty to do with mastu**ation but with a man spilling his seed on the ground. In the circumstances in which this account is related in the Bible, Onan was required by the Law of Yahweh (the Levirate Law) to marry his late brother's wife because he had not had not raised up any sons to inherit his property. Because he wished to keep his late brother's property all to himself, he attempted to defraud him by spilling his semen on the ground after having had intercourse with his wife. It was for this act of dishonesty that he was cursed by Yahweh by being supernaturally executed (Gen.38:4-10). I mention this only to avoid confusing the sin of Onan (onanism) with mastu**bation though Onan presumably mastur**ated at some point in order to spill his seed on the ground. Mast**bation is the act of having sex with yourself. What this means in spiritual terms is that you enter into a marriage covenant with yourself. Since such can never be fruitful (since you cannot possible fertilise yourself) it runs contrary to the mandate to multiply and replenish the earth. And there can be no doubt that this kind of activity creates a perverse form of fulfilment that can under certain circumstances lead to a man defrauding his wife in the natural expression of sex for which Yahweh made it. The same is also true of a woman mastu**ating. If a person can fulfil himself, what need of a spouse? Important those these issues are they are not the most important ones as Yahweh revealed to me in my dream. For I was shown, in an unmistakable and undeniable way, that mas**bation is a form of HOMOS**UALITY (in men) or LESBI**ISM (in women). Not only are you having sex with yourself but you are having sex with a member of the same sex. And in the dream I saw that there was a demon assocociated with mas**rbation which, because of its presence, made mast**bation compulsive and addictive. By the time I woke up there was not the slightest doubt in my mind that mastu**ation leads to one degree of demonisation of another. It leads to a defilement of the spirit of man and is an open invitation for an evil spirit to build a stronghold in the soul. It is an invitation to trouble. As I said, until the day before yesterday I know that mastu**ation was not godly but did not realise that it was also demonic. It has no place either before or in marriage. It is not a harmless se*ual release valve which is why it is no doubt a feature of the culture of por**graphy which assaults society. It is undoubtedly a contributing factor to the explosive rise of bise**uality and homo**xuality/les**anism in our permissive and demonised world. There is really no room for compromise on this subject. We all know what sex is for and how it is to be performed. There shouldn't be any need for me to spell it out to either a Christian or those in, or contemplating entrance into, the Christian polygamous community. But unfortunately, as well all know, Satan is not one to sit around and leave simple truth unchallenged. So long as he can build demonic strongholds in Christians such as through urging ma**rbation, he can not only harrass them but diminish their ability to discern the Ruach (Spirit). You don't imagine that demons sit around idly in a Christian's life, do you? They are constantly trying to sow the seeds of confusion by whispering lies and urging believers to break more and more commandments. A demon given access to a man or woman through mas**bation is going to be urging them more and more into the sin of homo*exuality and les**anism if it can. And in the case of those living the holy practice of Christian polygyny, the women into more and more overt acts of bis**uality. In a word, that demon, whether in the husband or one or more of the wives (and remember, that sexual demons are transmitted by se*ual intercourse from one spouse to another) is going to create a compulsion for les*ian sex. And it isn't going to let go until it is expelled. You may have had encounters with bis*xual polygamist women on the internet: I know my wives have and it has became very clear to them how unnatural sex was the driving force in in those women's search for bis*xual "sister-wives". It would not surprise me, therefore, that the reason many women are entering Christian polygamy today is because they are seeking for a legitimisation of sinful behaviour. And as such, what more crafty way could Satan enter the movement to corrupt it, especially as greedy men, facing a shortage of women interested in polygamy, might be willing to compromise with se*ual standards? Only the other day I was reading an advertisement on the net inserted by a woman who wanted to enter into polygamy. She made two stipulations that sent the warning bells ringing in my head. Firstly, she only wanted to enter into a polygamous marriage where there was one sister-wife apart from herself, and secondly, she would only contemplate such a union if she could sleep in the same bed as the sister-wife. Now I am not saying that all three cannot sleep in the same bed if they want to (for I know this is the preferred arrangment in some families) but the fact that these were her conditions strongly suggested that there was some sort of bisexual tendency, whether conscious or unconscious. I could have been wrong, but in any case it is not for wives to decide how big a polygamous family should be or to dictate sleeping arrangements with the others: Yahweh decides the former and the husband the latter by consensus. What we are dealing with here is one of the enemy's methods of subversion. Any kind of homo*exual or le*ian sex in a polygamous marriage is going to undermine it which is why the husband must be strict. If a woman entering a polygamous family is known to be an habitual masturbator, then I guarantee you have a problem on your hands. It's a vice that has got to be broken! And so long as a wife is mastu**bating I would under no circumstances allow her to sleep in the same bed as another wife nor permit any kind of physical intimacy (long protracted hugging, for example). If a sister-wife who does this is, or was, an habitual mas**rbator and this sin has not been properly dealt with, then this is an open invitation to contaminate the marriage with bise*ual lesbia**ism. And if the husband has this problem, his discernment will be impaired and he may be tempted (urged by the demon of mastur**tion) to compromise the se*ual standards of Yahweh in his polygamous marriage by granting his wives "freedoms" with each other which he has no right to grant. Indeed, it is part and parcel of his stewardship as husband and head of the household to make sure that such matters are properly dealt with. Se*ual sins can never be ignored or treated lightly. Unless dealt with, they expand in their influence and destructive nature like a viral contagion if not quickly eliminated. There are, sadly, going to be many polygamous families which Satan will assault in this way and render them ineffective in their call to be witnesses of Christ, which is the primary reason polygamy is permitted in the first place. Needless to say, it is the husband who will be called to account by Yahweh if he is aware of a problem and does nothing about it. Remember also that sexual demons do not yield easily, and why sexual perversion has always been one of Satan's preferred methods in infiltrating and destroying Christian lives ... and why it is his preferred method (apart from murder) in bringing souls into the bondage of satanism and devil-worship. Because sex is so holy in terms of what Yahweh intends it for, it has also been a prime target of the legions of darkness. Accordingly, we have got to keep all sexual abberation out of the Christian polygamous community. This means openly alerting people as to the dangers of mast**ation, breaking any such habits, encouraging former transgressors to enter into covenants of permanent abstinence, and to pray for them until the demon has been kicked out. No abiding stability will ever be found in a polygamous marriage where mastur**tion is present, or where those who have practiced it previously but not dealt with it as a sin-issue and had the demons associated with the practice removed, have entered into such a marriage. Moreover, dealing with this issue is not only right but will, I guarantee, clean out the spiritual air of such a marriage and bring in a new, deeper and more permanent presence of the Ruach haQodesh (Holy Spirit). Not only that, but other problems in your family will start to be released and solved, seemingly almost instantly. Any kind of cleansing brings blessings from on high. Guaranteed. And remember also this: that recognition of sin, confession, and covenant to cease it, brings forgiveness through the blood of the Lamb. And once dealt with, it is dealt with forever. I realise that many questions will be forthcoming as a result of this article. These I will deal with as they come up. The important thing is that this subject is broached, confronted, and dealt with. Expect resistance and recognise that this is a sign of a demonic stronghold. Not until the sin is actively hated and opposed (not the people/sinners themselves, I hasten to add) will it be effectively extirpated. May Yahweh bless you as you actively root this sin out of your homes and so bring blessings upon all your family members.





http://www.nccg.org/fecpp/CPM108-Masturbation.html

Steve M
Nov 29th 2004, 03:25 PM
First off, a freindly reminder that the forum asks members to ## out words such as porn*graphy, mas*urbate, etc., so that the forum doesn't dive upwards on searchs for such filth (leading trolls straight back to the board). The board has had serious problems in the back with such people coming back here and attacking the board.


Secondly, for JareXP: your first arguement is predicated on our preachers telling us that such is sinful. But such is not necessarily the case: what of those who have preachers who tell them it's okay?

Also, about that article you just posted: you are aware that this man is advocating that Christians should live polygamously, right? (which is currently against the law in the country I live in)

lbeaty1981
Nov 29th 2004, 04:32 PM
I too kind of wonder about the article you posted, JareXP. I viewed the website you pulled it from, and it almost sounds cult-like to me. At a glance, I noticed that they still require their members to remain kosher, something which is said to be untrue in Acts 10:9-15. Also, their views on women is a bit disturbing, to say the least...



We are not opposed to married women being engaged in paid work up until the time they bring forth their first child. Thereafter we believe they should labour at home. We do not believe that children should be sent to kindergartens but that mothers should raise their own children and not leave such a sacred to call to strangers. At the same time, we also believe it is good for small pre-schoolers to be exposed to other adult Christians and therefore encourage our people to gather together into Christian communities. We believe very much in the extended family, both biological as well as spiritual. Furthermore, we believe that a woman, having brought forth children, should continue to be industrious (Prov.31) and engage in domestic industries provided these do not interfere with her primary calling and duty as a mother and wife. Here communal projects such as can be found in a Christian Community are made easier by cooperation amongst female adults.

FRISIAN
Nov 29th 2004, 09:01 PM
Well with the definition of lu*t being: I don't know how you could consider m*st*rb*tion anything but lu*t. It's designed to satisfy your intense or unrestrained se*ual craving. Same thing as po**ography. While I understand that you ran away from God because of guilt, I don't think that your understanding of forgiveness was very firm. God forgives us for everything we've done, and he knows that we'll probably sin again. We're human, and we're going to mess up. All of the self guilt you had was very understandable, but you didn't have to feel that way because God had already forgiven you! All you had to was accept it.
How does self gratification = unrestrained?

FRISIAN
Nov 29th 2004, 09:04 PM
The main problems with p*rn , and m*st*rb*ti*n that I can see are.

1) They are totally self-centered.
2) They take your focus (time, energy,mind,etc.) away from God.
So does sleep.

:giveup: :D

Bingo
Nov 29th 2004, 09:31 PM
Just my two cents...

If any have come across some of my posts, you know that I believe polygamy is Biblically allowable (where it is not illegal). And JareXP cited the article from the polygamous guy about the sinfulness of self-pleasure. I couldn't disagree with the guy more. What does Scripture say about the sinful nature of it??? Nothing. And now I guess it's sinful because the guy had a dream about it! Show me some Scripture that speaks directly to the issue before you tell me it's illegal and a sin against God.

Frisian.....that sleep remark. ROTF!!!!!!

-Bingo

Steve M
Nov 29th 2004, 11:25 PM
Just my two cents...

If any have come across some of my posts, you know that I believe polygamy is Biblically allowable (where it is not illegal). And JareXP cited the article from the polygamous guy about the sinfulness of self-pleasure. I couldn't disagree with the guy more. What does Scripture say about the sinful nature of it??? Nothing. And now I guess it's sinful because the guy had a dream about it! Show me some Scripture that speaks directly to the issue before you tell me it's illegal and a sin against God.

Frisian.....that sleep remark. ROTF!!!!!!

-Bingo
Hm, yes...and then I noted that he had an understanding of the sin of Onan, but then decided that it must apply anyway. :hmm:

JareXP
Nov 29th 2004, 11:41 PM
Indeed, it hsa been written by such guy, but look at some facts, forget about his dream, i just thought it's a very good article because most of it is TRUE when you think about it in a broad topic not just in one specific area. And i appologize for not ## words such as m*st*rb*t**n :-)

Steve M
Nov 29th 2004, 11:56 PM
Indeed, it hsa been written by such guy, but look at some facts, forget about his dream, i just thought it's a very good article because most of it is TRUE when you think about it in a broad topic not just in one specific area. And i appologize for not ## words such as m*st*rb*t**n :-)
Well, I don't know about that...


Our own Order received a revelation on this subject some years ago warning of the adulterous and idolatrous aspects of homo**xuality.

This quote from within the article is very fishy, to me. The Bible says that even if an angel from heaven brings down a new revelation, they are to be cursed, anathema. But this article claims to have recieved a revelation.

And as Bingo noted, these folks go above and beyond what he preachs as polygamy; they seem to be advocating the spread of an unlawful (it is illegal in most countries, not just mine) community of polygamous people.

And his scripture use is strained, at best.

I hesitate to use him as an authority, and kind of wonder at some of his logic later on. I do agree that there is definitely a problem with por**graphy and addiction, but his methods taint the overall message.

Bingo
Nov 30th 2004, 12:27 AM
Indeed, it hsa been written by such guy, but look at some facts, forget about his dream, i just thought it's a very good article because most of it is TRUE when you think about it in a broad topic not just in one specific area. And i appologize for not ## words such as m*st*rb*t**n :-)

Let me add to Steve's thought...

You know one of the great things about the God that we serve is that He was very vocal and detailed in regards to the things that would keep us from fellowship with Him. He was zealous for rightouesness and gave us details of the behaviours that would keep us from that righteousness. So when we have a person who has a dream, a word, a prompting, we can always run back to God's spoken/written revelation and test the new one against what has already been written. If it agrees with what God has revealed, then that new teaching might have some credibility, but if not then we must use the better part of discernment. In this case, the man with the dream, has condemned something (and condemned others who practice it) that God didn't even think worthy of mention.

Some of his other work has merit (IMO), but I find this portion of his teaching unfortunate.

-Bingo

Armistead14
Nov 30th 2004, 12:54 AM
I once , many years ago knew a boy who commited suicide over his guilt of self pleasure. Everytime he did it, he promised he would never again, even vowing. The older adults of the church dealt totally with this issue as just sin, without understanding how hard it was. I'm sure they never did it.
I would jump into this one, but the Adultry thread wore me out. I'll let Bingo speak for me as I usually agree with his logic.. Take it away Bingo..

Bingo
Nov 30th 2004, 01:42 AM
I once , many years ago knew a boy who commited suicide over his guilt of self pleasure. Everytime he did it, he promised he would never again, even vowing. The older adults of the church dealt totally with this issue as just sin, without understanding how hard it was. I'm sure they never did it.
I would jump into this one, but the Adultry thread wore me out. I'll let Bingo speak for me as I usually agree with his logic.. Take it away Bingo..

Hey Armistead....

I think most of the previous posters covered this pretty well. Those opposed to master***, do so on the Scriptures silence on the issue. This in itself leads us down on hazardous path that is dictated by human reasoning instead of Divine command. From this approach, it's only a short step to regulate the attire of believers, the prohibition of dancing or playing musical instruments in worship, whether we are dipped, dunked or sprinkled during baptism, the list goes on and on and on. All this is determined by men, who using their human faculties, are determining (for everybody else) God's position on such matters.

God did not give us the authority to speak laws into effect on His behalf. Those considering such things must pray about it, seeking God's counsel and then see how it may violate the "law of love" (Matt: 22:37), which is how a believer is to live his/her life (this is not only a male issue, but a female issue as well). If it does not breach love for God or love for man, then the practice can be safely persued, using moderation as in all things. For those that continue to believe that master*** is sinful, then for you it is and you should refrain from such practices as to not violate your conscience.

Above all seek God and He will direct you.

-Bingo

brianspro
Nov 30th 2004, 08:05 PM
God did not give us the authority to speak laws into effect on His behalf. Those considering such things must pray about it, seeking God's counsel and then see how it may violate the "law of love" (Matt: 22:37), which is how a believer is to live his/her life (this is not only a male issue, but a female issue as well). If it does not breach love for God or love for man, then the practice can be safely persued, using moderation as in all things. For those that continue to believe that master*** is sinful, then for you it is and you should refrain from such practices as to not violate your conscience. Above all seek God and He will direct you.
Very good advice. I was raised Mormon and my wife was raised Church of Christ (non-instrumental)... both being very legalistic denominations that dictate what is sinful and what is pure. I believe that God gave us the Holy Spirit so that we may receive personal guidance from His Spirit on matters pertaining to our personal lives.

While I disagree that master*** is a serious sin, or even a sin at all, we ought to avoid anything that becomes obsessive, habitual and controls us. If we use wise judgement and moderation in all things, then I believe that we will continue to be receiptive to the Holy Spirit and be a powerful tool in God's hands.

I should also caution that Satan's tools include excessive guilt, lack of self-worth and believing that we can not possibly be worthy of God's love and salvation... causing us to fall into despair and giving up the fight. I believe this is what happened with the young man you discussed who committed suicide over his lack of self-control. God understands our weaknesses and loves us unconditionally. He will continue to help us overcome; but He also understands that we are not perfect. This is why His Son offered His life as a blood sacrifice for our sins so that we will be justified before the Father if we trust in Him. He already paid the price and died for our sins -- all of them -- because He loves us and knew it was the only way for us to become perfect --- through Him.

Brian :hug:

Steve M
Dec 1st 2004, 12:48 AM
Church of Christ legalistic? Perish the thought!!

(as a group, we are very much so...as a congregation, mine is not so much--but we do have those tendencies! We're working on it)


I'm really of two minds about the whole matter.

First of all, it is not explicitly laid out as a sin. There's a real problem trying to make this out as the eighth deadly sin--speak where the scripture speaks, and be quiet where the scripture is quiet, the CoC preachers always said.

But the other half of my mind is that half that spent the last four years struggling with an addiction to po*n that pretty near wrecked my life. It stemmed from other problems, but I still struggled with this.

Earlier, the male physical cycle was mentioned. I'll give you a helpful hint, guys; it is not a daily cycle, or a four-hour cycle. It's a four-day cycle. I don't want to be too graphic, but when we have Christians saying, "well, how many times a day is 'obsessive,'" we've got a problem.

So, with all that in mind, I have a very difficult time wading into and through this topic. I think we really need to keep our eyes on the scripture, and ask ourselves, what does the scripture say? (and is it worth considering that the word por*ography is based on the word por*neia, which is translated Fornication in our Bibles?)

Light Bringer
Dec 23rd 2004, 01:48 PM
How do you know if ma$turba!*#n is ok/wrong?

God is clear:

your whole s*xuality is for your spouse.

that really says it all.
it's not for me, it's for my spouse.
simple? yes. easy? not always.

Peace of Christ to you.

roadrunner570
Dec 23rd 2004, 02:03 PM
Light bringer--m*stb*tion isn't "sex" in the technical sense. there is no intercourse involved and not even another person involved.


Steve--when I talk about using it to help get over p*rn addiction, I've tried using no visuals whatsoever, and giving myself a time limit of 10 minutes. Thats been able to help me keep my urges under control without actually engaging in behavior, plus it makes it not so fun either. When we're acting out to p*rn, it because ritualistic and drawn out.

I think while I'm on the subject, I'll mention something we talk about at my support group. Thats the four main triggers that lead to acting out. Its called HALT:

Hunger
Anger
Lonliness
Tiredness

Usually its a combination, but if we're feeling any one of these things, we're prone to acting out this compulsive behavior. Being aware of this can help us find other ways of distracting ourselves. P*rn is NOT stress relief! We tell ourselves it is, only to feel even MORE depressed after doing it. Just some things I hope help. :)

Yeshua Is
Dec 30th 2004, 11:34 PM
My doctor, a very, very fine Christian man, says single men NEED to do it to prevent prostrate problems. My wife actually reported this to me. She came home from the doctor one day and she told me there was a man in there, who apparenlty had a hearing problem, as well as the aforementioned prostrate problem. She said you could hear part the converstation through the walls because the man was kinda loud (that's why I assume he had a hearing problem). She was able to pick up the Dr was basically telling him, "you can get remarried or you can take care of this yourself, but this has to be taken care of." I guess the conversation went on and then as the man was leaving, walking down the hall, he's behind the Dr asking, "what about if I get a girlfriend? Is premarital sex OK?" My wife said our doctor turned all shades of red and told him that he didn't support that option. Then the doctor went into his office for a few minutes embarrassed as he could be.
:lol:

Anyway...for men this isn't a matter of "just lust". There is very much a physical need and there is very much a physical problem if it isn't addressed.

Steve M
Dec 31st 2004, 04:20 PM
My doctor, a very, very fine Christian man, says single men NEED to do it to prevent prostrate problems. My wife actually reported this to me. She came home from the doctor one day and she told me there was a man in there, who apparenlty had a hearing problem, as well as the aforementioned prostrate problem. She said you could hear part the converstation through the walls because the man was kinda loud (that's why I assume he had a hearing problem). She was able to pick up the Dr was basically telling him, "you can get remarried or you can take care of this yourself, but this has to be taken care of." I guess the conversation went on and then as the man was leaving, walking down the hall, he's behind the Dr asking, "what about if I get a girlfriend? Is premarital sex OK?" My wife said our doctor turned all shades of red and told him that he didn't support that option. Then the doctor went into his office for a few minutes embarrassed as he could be.
:lol:

Anyway...for men this isn't a matter of "just lust". There is very much a physical need and there is very much a physical problem if it isn't addressed.
That flies in the face of all I know about biology. ??? :confused

Freealaska
Dec 31st 2004, 11:52 PM
:blush: Well...umm...I've heard it mentioned that guys who frequently do it have lower rates of prostate cancer than guys who don't. :blush:

Yeshua Is
Jan 1st 2005, 01:54 AM
That flies in the face of all I know about biology. ??? :confused
What does, my friend?

lbeaty1981
Jan 1st 2005, 04:22 AM
Here's an article I found on WebMD about the relationship between m*sturbation and prostate cancer risk: http://my.webmd.com/content/article/85/98532.htm?z=1688_81000_0000_f1_04

It sounds like it may be a bit early to make a definitive statement on the matter, but studies are showing a pretty major relationship between ejaculation frequency and decreased risk of prostate cancer. Sorry the article's a bit old, it was the best I could find without looking too hard :tongue2:

Yeshua Is
Jan 1st 2005, 11:41 AM
Here's an article I found on WebMD about the relationship between m*sturbation and prostate cancer risk: http://my.webmd.com/content/article/85/98532.htm?z=1688_81000_0000_f1_04

It sounds like it may be a bit early to make a definitive statement on the matter, but studies are showing a pretty major relationship between ejaculation frequency and decreased risk of prostate cancer. Sorry the article's a bit old, it was the best I could find without looking too hard :tongue2:
I think it's important to drop a reminder in the thread this should only apply to men who are single or who's wives don't want it. As someone else pointed out in the thread, our bodies belong to our partners. It is or responsibility they are satisfied to the hilt.

JasonTheSinner
Jan 4th 2005, 03:40 PM
It seems to me that mas***ation is a nearly universal experience for adolescent young men. Yet the Bible does not seem to explicitly deal with this directly. That strikes me as odd, especially if it is a sin. I can't find a direct reference to this behavior anywhere in the Bible. It seems to me that if something so universal was also a sin, it would be mentioned along with hom****ality, adultery, etc.

Addiction to anything is wrong. I would tend to say most men that do Mas***ate don't just do it once in awhile with good thoughts about their wife. I know for me as a kid it was more of an addrenaline high.

Freealaska
Jan 4th 2005, 06:55 PM
My experience has been that those who obsess about how "sinful" m@sturbati0n is are the ones who wind up doing it the most. Every guy (who is honest) admits to doing it, but obviously for some its a bigger deal than for others. In highschool I had one friend who came to me one afternoon and confessed that he was a s*exual pervert and was thinking about killing himself.

When I inquired as to why he was a pervert he said it was because he m@stubated 2-3 every day.

In his mind he was of course the "only guy" who ever did it, and everytime he did he would feel like he had failed God in the worst way by abusing his own temple. This left him feeling isolated, ashamed, condemned, and like a social reject. I don't have to tell you that for a 16 year old feelings like that are especially damaging.

The first thing I did was assure him that he wasn't the only one. I did it (granted no where near that much), all his friends did it, and probably 95% of the guys at school did it too. I've never seen such a look of relief before or since! :lol:

Anyway I think m@sturbati0n is just one of those things that's not good or bad. People (especially the young ones) could use some education about it...if anything just to avoid the crippling guilt and sense of isolation and embarassment.

Alastair
Jan 5th 2005, 01:22 AM
Anyway I think m@sturbati0n is just one of those things that's not good or bad. Can it be good? Yes I beleave so if its something you and your wife agree too, But if you are young and single then for what excuse do you have?

was it not paul that said that it is better to marry a woman than to lust after her. I know the answer, But can anyone else tell me why he said this?

Galatians: 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.

1 Cor: 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.


James: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Mat: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

1 john 2:16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Freealaska
Jan 8th 2005, 06:14 PM
Very good advice Alastair...

For avoiding fornication which is something completely separate from the issue of m@sturbati0n. Properly defined fornication requires two partners, specifically: two partners who are not married to eachother. M@sturbati0n necessarily requires no partner...so has nothing to do with fornication.

Alastair
Jan 8th 2005, 06:52 PM
For avoiding fornication which is something completely separate from the issue of m@sturbati0n. Properly defined fornication requires two partners, specifically: two partners who are not married to eachother. M@sturbati0n necessarily requires no partner...so has nothing to do with fornication.

Ok yes, But this doen not mean that masterbation is ok. And why, Because in order for most men to masterbate who are not already married, They would have to be thinking, lusting after another in there imagination and what do the scriptures say:

Matthew 5:27-32 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

"to look" upon her, and deliver her. It was not any looking upon a woman, that is forbid by Christ as criminal; but so to look, as "to lust after her"; for such an one hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
But these men, who forbad external looking upon a woman, generally speaking, had no notion of heart sins; and which was the prevailing opinion of the Pharisees, in Christ's time.



``everyone that looks upon a woman (hnwwkb) , with intention, it is all one as if he lay with her.''

And that (Pawn arqn wynyeb Pawn) , "he that committeth adultery with his eyes, is called an adulterer

He that lusteth apon a woman with his mind is called an adulterer

5:16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
(This covers all lusts of the flesh)

James 1:13-18 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, F3 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=jas+1:15&version=kjv&context=1&showtools=1#F3) neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death

Alastair
Jan 8th 2005, 07:20 PM
There is a lot of good advice below, But I know its difficult to keep up with long posts,So I have split each subject into seperate posts. Maybe this would be easier for some of you to work with:)

This is where the material is from:)
http://www.bible.com/answers/amasturb.html
"Isn't it still better to masturbate than to commit fornication?"

The easy answer to this question would be, "Yes, it is better to masturbate, because at best it corrupts only one person. It certainly is the lesser of two evils." However,why would a loving, holy, all-powerful God abandon you to a situation in which you have to choose any evil, whether it be "lesser" or "greater?" To really answer this question, we must again go back to God's original plan for sex.

First of all, masturbation will not truly relieve the sexual pressure that one may feel. It may for a short moment, but in the long run it only creates a deeper desire and capacity for sex, which will lead to more masturbation. If you let yourself become enslaved to a sexual high, you will find that you need to go to increasingly extreme acts to maintain the same degree of excitement. There are even ungodly sex therapists who recommend masturbation as a way of increasing sexual desire, not lessening it. This creates a vicious circle, like the junkie who craves a "fix," but is only temporarily satisfied. The more he indulges in his dependency, the more ensnared by addiction he becomes. This is the nature of all sin. That is why Jesus declared that all who sin become a slave to sin (John 8:34).

Furthermore, masturbation usually involves fantasy, visualization, and often pornography. The Bible is very clear as to what God expects of us in these areas of fantasy and lust. It teaches that we must not look lustfully at each other and nor should we behave in such a manner as to entice others to lust after us.

"I made a covenant with my eyes not to look with lust upon a girl. I know full well that the Almighty God sends calamity on those who do" (Job 31:1-3, The Living Bible).

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28).

While the above verses refer to men lusting after women, all women know that it can very easily be reversed to apply to themselves as well. Men may be more easily visually stimulated than women, but women can be just as vulnerable to sexual fantasy in the emotional realm. Both are sin in God's eyes, and both can be brought into subjection by controlling our thoughts through Christ's power.

All sexual immorality begins with a thought. A lustful thought not taken captive, will eventually lead to other perversions, because sin reproduces itself in increasingly greater measures. If we do not deal with our evil thoughts, they will take root in our heart.

It is for this reason that God is so concerned with our thought life. Jesus came not only to deliver us from our "outward" sins, but also from wickedness that begins in the heart.

Alastair
Jan 8th 2005, 07:21 PM
"Isn't God unreasonable to demand sexual purity after giving us sexual drives that seem to overwhelm us at times?"

Our loving God never demands from us what is impossible for us to do. We are so weak within ourselves that it may seem impossible, but He will equip us with His holy power to overcome any sin, if we ask in faith.

Of course, sexual urges in and of themselves are not wicked. They are natural. God created us that way. He desires that we get optimum pleasure out of them by using them the way they were created to be used. However, many desires for physical gratification (whether it be food, sex, etc.) stem from a deeper need that is unfilled deep inside us. Gorging our flesh can never fill a hunger that grows out of our spirit. Only intimacy with God can fill the deepest needs inside of us. No other created thing has that power.

God is no more unreasonable than any caring parent who lovingly disciplines their child. It is only because He knows what is best for us. He sees a mighty potential in each one of us that far supersedes our wildest dreams, and He loves us enough to do all He can to bring it to pass.

"I agree with all the theory, but living it out on a day to day level is another story."

This is the place where we need the empowerment of the Holy Spirit in our everyday lives. The Holy Spirit is not a vague "force," but the very power of God to comfort you and strengthen you against the sins that used to rule you before you were born again. Through the power of the Holy Spirit, we have the very ability that Jesus had to resist temptation. He depended completely upon the Father and so must we.

Something you must know is that God is not the one who is tempting you in this area to "test" you. God is on your side and wants to set you free from these things, not lead you into them! "When tempted, no one should say "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed" (James 1:13-14).

God wants us to overcome every sin and temptation in our lives. Please slowly read the following verses and let their message seep deep inside your spirit.

"No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it" (1 Corinthians 10:13).

"For though we live in the world we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:3-5).

"In the same way count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace" (Romans 6:11-14).

"For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:15-16, King James Version).

"Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God" (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Alastair
Jan 8th 2005, 07:23 PM
"Can I really be set free?"

"In (this) freedom, Christ has made us free—completely liberated us; stand fast then, and do not be hampered and held ensnared and submit again to a yoke of slavery—which you have once put off " (Galatians 5:1 Amp).

If you are in a real struggle with any form of sexual sin, we do not believe it was by accident that God led you to this teaching. He wants to set you free, starting right now!We would like to share several things that you can do to break loose from this stronghold:

1. Confess this sin first to God, then go to a committed Christian you trust, such as your pastor. Ask God to lead you to someone that you can be accountable with, who will be faithful to pray with you and for you. This will take humility on your part, but it will lead to life. James 5:16 says: "Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." (You may not feel "righteous" but if you have admitted your sin to God and received His forgiveness, you are! That means your prayers are powerful and effective!)

We found a site that deals with people who have had problems in the past with pornography. Now they hold each other accountable and share what God has done in their lives. If you think such a group may be of help to you, you might want to visit this link. Porn Prayer Support (http://www.jesus-connect.net/jesusco/PPS/info/) (Christian support group)

2. Flee from and reject anything that aggravates this sin. For example, you may need to get off the Internet for a season or purchase software that blocks out pornography. This may sound too drastic, but it certainly is mild compared to Jesus who said, "If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body, than for your whole body to go into Hell" (Matthew 5:30). His point was that we must be willing to part with anything that causes us to sin—even if it hurts temporarily.

3. You may need to seek healing and deliverance from qualified Christians who are anointed in this area of ministry. If you have been deeply involved in sexual sins, the devil probably has a stronghold in that area your life. If you can, find some people who can help you stand against the devil, for he is the one who seeks to lead you into temptation, and whispers lies of hopelessness and shame into your ears. If he drops a filthy thought into your mind just when you are trying to pray (he has used this tactic on even the holiest saints of God), tell him to leave in the name of Jesus! Recognize his voice for what it is, and submit yourself to God. As you do this and resist the devil, he will flee from you! He is deathly afraid of those who are submitted to God in brokenness and humility.

4. Don't give up! Deliverance might take time. Self-control takes effort. You may slip occasionally—or even a lot. But remember that God loves you and He will be faithful to perfect His character in you as long you keep submitting to Him. Eventually you will win—and not because of your best efforts, but because of God's mercy (Titus 3:5). Just as salvation is received in faith, so deliverance must be received in faith. This has nothing to do with our character, strength, or failings. The only thing it is dependant upon is you receiving it in humility. If you should fail, recognize it quickly, ask God to forgive you—and then receive His forgiveness! He is faithful to do that which He promised, not just in a select few mighty men and woman of God, but in all who are willing to come humbly before Him. That includes you! We want to encourage you to hold on to this scripture as your anchor:

"May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and He will do it" (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).

If there is anything else we can do to help you, please let us know. In closing, we would like to pray for you:

"Father, we thank you for bringing this person into our website. We know that it was your Holy Spirit that led them here and we thank you for your faithfulness to them! We lift them up to you now and ask that You fill them with a desire for You that transcends every other desire they have ever known. Let them know your cleansing love and power. We thank you that he whom the Son has set free, is free indeed. We speak this freedom into the life of this one whom the devil has bound in shame. We speak healing and deliverance and we break every tie that has kept them under a spirit of addiction and perversion. We stand against the Evil One and his every plan to bring destruction in this one's life. Father, in faith, and by the power and authority You have given us, we declare that this one is FREE in the name of Jesus! We commit them to Your care and we loose Your Holy Spirit to minister to them at this very instant. We ask these things in the precious name of Your son, Jesus Christ."

Freealaska
Jan 8th 2005, 07:44 PM
Hey how's about editing some of the copyrighted material that gets posted on here without permission from the owner?

If we're going to have a discussion about intent versus action then the various verses Alistair quoted don't specifically condemn the act of m@asturbat1ng anyway.

Adultery is when a married person has s*xual relations with someone other than his or her spouse. Or when an unmarried person has s*xual relations with someone else's spouse. A man can commit adultery in his heart by oogling some woman.

BUT when an unmarried man and an unmarried woman have s*xual relations it is not considered adultery because neither of them are married or betrothed. That's is called fornication. It seems to me that this is a curious distinction to make, but one which necessarily excuses singles. You can't commit adultery if you're single so you're not comitting adultery by lusting after a woman...unless I guess if she's someone else's wife. That's kindof a mixture of adultery and coveting I think.

lbeaty1981
Jan 8th 2005, 10:49 PM
No offense meant to anyone, but it sounds like we're starting to go around in circles again. Most of us in here that have said we believe that m@sturbation is not a sin agree that this is only the case when one is not lusting after others, either through p*rnography or in our minds. For me, at least, it actually helps me to keep my s*xual desires better under control throughout the rest of the day. Being a 23-year-old virgin working on a college campus, s*xual temptation is a constant battle. M*sturbation at home is just another tool to help me win the battle.

Alastair
Jan 9th 2005, 06:29 AM
No offense meant to anyone, but it sounds like we're starting to go around in circles again. Most of us in here that have said we believe that m@sturbation is not a sin agree that this is only the case when one is not lusting after others, either through p*rnography or in our minds. For me, at least, it actually helps me to keep my s*xual desires better under control throughout the rest of the day. Being a 23-year-old virgin working on a college campus, s*xual temptation is a constant battle. M*sturbation at home is just another tool to help me win the battle.

Dear brothers in Christ,

Can you please take time to read the post below,before replying:) Also if the moderator would rather that I contacted them before using script from another site that I know is christian and biblicaly based, Then let me know and I will do that:)

How can you masterbate without lusting, Married or unmarried?

I asked that question to freealaska, I mean when one masterbates does he then think of the price of hamburger or big white marshmallows in order not to lust. No what he does is he fantasizes normaly about other women, Then what happens after a while, it turns into habit where other forms of sexual fantasy are reached to try and satisfy yourself. But of course even that is only temporary, Eventualy if you cannot control yourself and history has proven that most cannot, Then you may turn to porn via the internet or wherever to help fuel your habit and so on and so on. Otherwize masterbation leads to other temptations.

First of all, masturbation will not truly relieve the sexual pressure that one may feel. It may for a short moment, but in the long run it only creates a deeper desire and capacity for sex, which will lead to more masturbation. If you let yourself become enslaved to a sexual high, you will find that you need to go to increasingly extreme acts to maintain the same degree of excitement. There are even ungodly sex therapists who recommend masturbation as a way of increasing sexual desire, not lessening it. This creates a vicious circle, like the junkie who craves a "fix," but is only temporarily satisfied. The more he indulges in his dependency, the more ensnared by addiction he becomes. This is the nature of all sin. That is why Jesus declared that all who sin become a slave to sin (John 8:34).

Furthermore, masturbation usually involves fantasy, visualization, and often pornography. The Bible is very clear as to what God expects of us in these areas of fantasy and lust. It teaches that we must not look lustfully at each other and nor should we behave in such a manner as to entice others to lust after us.

"I made a covenant with my eyes not to look with lust upon a girl. I know full well that the Almighty God sends calamity on those who do" (Job 31:1-3, The Living Bible).

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28).

While the above verses refer to men lusting after women, all women know that it can very easily be reversed to apply to themselves as well. Men may be more easily visually stimulated than women, but women can be just as vulnerable to sexual fantasy in the emotional realm. Both are sin in God's eyes, and both can be brought into subjection by controlling our thoughts through Christ's power.

All sexual immorality begins with a thought. A lustful thought not taken captive, will eventually lead to other perversions, because sin reproduces itself in increasingly greater measures. If we do not deal with our evil thoughts, they will take root in our heart.

It is for this reason that God is so concerned with our thought life. Jesus came not only to deliver us from our "outward" sins, but also from wickedness that begins in the heart.

Steve M
Jan 9th 2005, 09:02 PM
Hey how's about editing some of the copyrighted material that gets posted on here without permission from the owner?



Also if the moderator would rather that I contacted them before using script from another site that I know is christian and biblicaly based, Then let me know and I will do thathttp://bibleforums.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

From the Rules Forum...


You may only post material written by other if you have their written permission.

Alastair, if the information from the site is intended for dissemination (i.e., they encourage cut and pastes) your postings are legitamite.


BUT when an unmarried man and an unmarried woman have s*xual relations it is not considered adultery because neither of them are married or betrothed. That's is called fornication. It seems to me that this is a curious distinction to make, but one which necessarily excuses singles. You can't commit adultery if you're single so you're not comitting adultery by lusting after a woman...unless I guess if she's someone else's wife. That's kindof a mixture of adultery and coveting I think.

There was recently a long discussion about this on the Bible Chat forum. I think the consensus reached (though I wasn't a big part of this discussion) is that lusting after a woman is stealing something from either her husband, or her future husband, and thus committing adultery.

I don't think we can say it excuses singles....

DaveS
Jan 10th 2005, 03:02 AM
I guess I see the moral side of mb as being similar to gambling. The Bible doesn't specifically condemn gambling but it does condemn greed. And it's hard to imagine someone gambling regularly without the love of money entering into it, ever. Nevertheless, while I can preach with vigor against greed I don't see that I'm free to condemn gambling. Yes, to warn strongly against the dangers, but not to call it sin. Sin is sin because the Word of God tells us it is. Where God's Word is silent I must be also.

I can't enter a man's heart and declare that he MUST be guilty of lust if he's engaged in mb. And even if I do I'm admitting that lust is the real sin and mb just the evidence of it. Thereby admitting that mb itself is not a sin.

Only the person himself knows if he is guilty of the true sin we're talking about. And if so I would encourage that person to deal with it as God tells us we should deal with all sin. And it's not by tapering off.
Just my 2 cents.

Alastair
Jan 10th 2005, 09:48 AM
Thankyou for your two cents Dave,

I even kondone some forms of gambeling because we know that some forms of gambeling can lead to serious problems and of course its not a sin to gamble. But I fail to see how you can put masterbation in the same catagory? Or to put it another way: How does one masterbate inocently? Is it actualy possible to masterbate inocently?

DaveS
Jan 11th 2005, 01:22 AM
I understand your point Al. But I have to ultimately come down on what I see as being the side of grace. What may not be possible in the heart of one may very well be possible in the heart of another. My only point is that I can't see into other men's hearts. If the Bible told me that it was impossible in the heart of man to mb without sin then I would have no problem making that judgement. But it doesn't, so I can't.

Yes I'm concerned that some might use the fact that mb is not specifically condemned in the Bible as an excuse and thereby blind themselves to the very real probability of lust in their hearts. But God is more concerned about them than I ever could be. When it comes to what Paul calls "doubtful things", that is, things that the Bible doesn't specifically address, grace leaves each of us responsible to God for the thoughts and the intents of our own heart.

Trying
Feb 1st 2005, 07:54 PM
I think most guys have this problem. For me this and lip service seem to be the only thing keeping me from obeying his holy will. I can hold out sometimes but at other times I am weak and fall into temptation.:( This is some very good advice al I will use it on my struggles with the flesh and I hope others do as well. :) :idea: In Christ we trust always! Amen~:saint:

Quickened
Feb 5th 2005, 04:05 PM
Ok i got to page four but i decided that there is really no solid biblical stance just yet.


Here is my outlook. i am 23 and a male. Lust is something that attacks me constantly. Keep this in mind while reading the rest.

I have a drinking problem as some of you know. I have asked for prayers here and i too have prayed but sometimes i fall. So lets say one day i Mas%ur&ate and then by accident i go and drink and get drunk. Chances are that s*xual temptation will not be as strong as it normally would. Sometimes it doesnt even effect me. I have turned girls down because of this.

But on the other hand if i dont and i make that same accident, chances are that i will be hammered and be surrounded with l*stful feelings and chances are that i might have s#X.

Its almost a healthy release in a way because usually my mind doesnt focus on s!xual things the rest of the day. Allowing me to put focus in other aspects.
----------------------------------------

Now for the second part of this post. Someone mentioned the whole nudism thing before.

There is nothing sinful about that if there is no l^st involved. L*st is the sin. Nudity is not (as far as i know). It's not like you see people walking around those places with erect!ons. I can see nud!ty and usually not be s*xually aroused.

when i see a n!ked person i dont go "OMG i must have s*x now". Its nothing to me.

---------------------------

The way i see it. If it isnt l*stfully motovated then its not sinful. L*st is the sin. Nudity is not a sin but can be associated with it.

Alastair
Feb 11th 2005, 05:06 AM
I understand your point Al. But I have to ultimately come down on what I see as being the side of grace. What may not be possible in the heart of one may very well be possible in the heart of another. My only point is that I can't see into other men's hearts. If the Bible told me that it was impossible in the heart of man to mb without sin then I would have no problem making that judgement. But it doesn't, so I can't.

Yes I'm concerned that some might use the fact that mb is not specifically condemned in the Bible as an excuse and thereby blind themselves to the very real probability of lust in their hearts. But God is more concerned about them than I ever could be. When it comes to what Paul calls "doubtful things", that is, things that the Bible doesn't specifically address, grace leaves each of us responsible to God for the thoughts and the intents of our own heart.

Maybe God knew my computer would crash:lol: I used the time to understand these posts more clearly through study and prayer. Thanks Dave. and to everyone else who has answered my posts:)

undertheblood
Feb 28th 2005, 01:39 PM
I only read about four post in this thread (I'm not much of a reader), but I felt an urge (no pun intended) to post a reply. According to Romans 8:1 "There is now no condemnation...", and Romans 8:32-34 (paraphrase) 'God doesn't condemn and Christ doesn't bring a railing accusation'. Besides this we know who is the accuser of the brethren - Satan (Rev.)
So, this is my view, Mas*ur*ation involves lu*t, otherwise you couldn't do it. The mind is the formost important member in us s*xual beings: the one who would self gratifiy hisself must conjure up images in his mind. Those images come via immodestly dress women on TV, magazines, or porn. I can conjure up images I have seen, in my youth, in porn magazines. They are burned in my mind forever, if I choose to access them. All I know is that our beloved Paul said, "Flee youthful lust".
Inclusion this is my answer to myself: Lu*t in all forms is sinful, but, if you have sinned, that quilt and condemnation you sense is not of God, but, is of the enemy of your soul. Remember the father of the prodigal son (Luke 15 ?), when the wayward son returns home the father welcomes him home rejoicing.
GOD DOESN'T CONDEMN, HE CONVICTS in love and grace. I am preaching to myself right now. God bless.

NHL Fever
Feb 28th 2005, 06:02 PM
I think while I'm on the subject, I'll mention something we talk about at my support group. Thats the four main triggers that lead to acting out. Its called HALT:

Hunger
Anger
Lonliness
Tiredness


You hit the nail on the head there.



Usually its a combination, but if we're feeling any one of these things, we're prone to acting out this compulsive behavior. Being aware of this can help us find other ways of distracting ourselves. P*rn is NOT stress relief! We tell ourselves it is, only to feel even MORE depressed after doing it. Just some things I hope help. :)

So true.

Also interesting what was said about the physical four-day cycle. I can usually last about 5 days before giving in. But I remember times when I could go months. This means that physically speaking, you don't just build up fluids until your burst, like some kind of bladder so I reject that idea.

What I do know, it that the day after I give in (usually it's at night), is categorically a terrible day. Nothing goes right, and I'm just unproductive. I think this is the psychological consequence of sin. Each day that I am free I feel like I'm climbing spiritually, then I get torn down spiritually right after I give in. This happens every single time, like clockwork. In a funny way it's one of the very real and consistent things I have to remind me that there is more to life than what I can see and hear.

Having said that, I hereby want to experiment for myself and just see how far I can take it without giving in. I'd like to reflect on my feelings during each day very breifly, try to analyze some kind of pattern of both physical urges and spiritual state over time. Anyone else want to indulge in a sort of master-of-your-domain accountability thread? I guess this applies to only single guys, since married guys would just get their wives upset. Specifically I wonder if there's a threshold of sexual desire that needs to be overcome and it's smoother sailing after that. Kind of like withdrawl from drugs, since I think it can be an addiction in the same sense.

Might as well start first entry here - last time was Friday I think, I had just done not as well as I liked on an exam and was feeling a little down - point of weakness as mentioned in the above post. So far no urges or mental battles for these last 2 and a bit days.

PS to moderators, if you don't think this is the place for a kind of dairy of this kind, feel free of course to can it, hopefully it's not offensive to anyone.

roadrunner570
Feb 28th 2005, 07:48 PM
This thread reminds me of the message our pastor gave yesterday. Since I've been clean from porn (Four months clean this week! :pp ) I've still been struggling with the m*strb*tion. I was hoping hte longer I go without looking at p*rn, the easier it would be, but it hasn't. I might go a couple of days, but then I noticed my thoughts and temptations keep increasing, then I "take care of things" and then it goes away. If I've had a messed up, stressful day, I'm really vulnerable. This has been a constant struggle and I remember as a teenager having just crippling guilt over it, and have known others who have.

Our pastor talkeda bout this passage this week:




2Co 12:6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.

2Co 12:7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

2Co 12:8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.

2Co 12:9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.

2Co 12:10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.




I thought this really hit home. I can't count how many times I"ve asked God to take this burden from me, but it stays. This made me realize something.

I'm not prideful now, I'm pretty humble I think. If this constant sin that I struggle with daily were out of my life...how would I act then? How would I feel about my Christian brothers who are struggling with this same thing or similar? Would I help them or think that I'm better since I was able to stop?

Because of this ongoing problem as well as my constant tempation to want to look at p*rn..I completely understand that God has allowed Satan to mess with our lives, so that we cling closer to God.

Imagine being a child, growing more and more independent, maybe too independent for your own good, and suddenly a bully starts to beat you up every day you walk to school. Are you still going to try to distance yourself from your parents? Or cry out to them and ask them to help you defeat the bully?

So, as far as m*st*rbtion, and the thoughts that go with it...yes, it involes lust and such that is considered sinful. And God will convict us if we commit such sins...however the guilt, the feeling "I'm a bad person" or "A bad Christian" "What would my church think of me?" "I'm not good enough." Such thoughts are not of God, but Satan. When I slip, I immediatly give it to God, ask his forgiveness and pray to give me the strength to keep fighing. I'll jump right into the Word if possible. Anything I can do to keep Satan from playing mind games.

I hope all this helps :)

PLJ
Mar 1st 2005, 02:25 AM
All this talk about mastoorbating can induce feelings of well... umm... urges to ..umm mastoorbate. Which makes it difficult for guys who aren't in a marriage. Hang in there...

NHL Fever
Mar 1st 2005, 06:31 AM
So does anybody want to start an accountability thread and try to go the distance? Just throwing it out there. I really think this is an honorable pursuit. Even the more liberal opinions can think of it as denying the flesh, much like fasting. Consider it a healthy dose of self-discipline, and for some of you it may be the goal of freedom for a terrible curse. I'd love to try to encourage a brother along instead of going the battle solo. Either way I wanted to put it out there so that I have to at least answer to myself. Any takers let me know.

Keep the focus on Christ no matter what.

shardy53
Mar 2nd 2005, 12:45 AM
How can you seriously discuss the topic when you can't even say or spell out the words in full. It is not a sin to say or spell the words that you are not saying or spelling.


Steve

roadrunner570
Mar 2nd 2005, 12:47 AM
Steve,


Thats done to throw off the search engines and people who are searching for websites to engage in this behavior.

shardy53
Mar 2nd 2005, 12:51 AM
Road runner,
Now I see the light. I would never have thought of that in a million years.
Steve

roadrunner570
Mar 2nd 2005, 12:55 AM
No problem. It confused me at first too :)

FISH
Jun 20th 2005, 02:14 PM
Hi Im new here and had a few question's or I guess a reply .Is it wrong to master$%$ if your thoughts a only about your wife ? I belive so a man thinks in his heart so he is . No porn no other women just things you and your wife have done together . Why master#$%@ if you are married ?well some women just dont want to do it as much due to maybe kids ,medications ,or they feel fat and ugly even after you tell them that they are still the most beautiful thing that you have ever seen .So what would be wrong with this if in your minds eye there are no other women ,porn ,or anything else ?? Im not saying its ok or not ok just wondering some thoughts on this .Peace FISH

sargy1978
Jun 20th 2005, 05:48 PM
because I was at a seminar last week where this was adressed and the teaching there was the act itself is not the sin it is indeed the thoughts that create are the sin. I think this is a valid point as taking every thought captive is dealt with in the good book where as the actual act is not.

Spiderweb
Jun 21st 2005, 07:24 PM
I agree, its the surrounding issues that is the sin. Thoughts, urges and images produced by this. Personally I feel convicted to stop altogether although have yet to achieve it fully.

It feels wrong to me, wether that is God or just a personal conviction based on the fact i'm a recovering addict of some other unsavoury activities. I must admit I never feel close to God if I do it (in the moment I mean) either because of previous bad experiences or because it really isn't a good thing.

Those that are free from feeling guilty, who have 'never lusted' and or been addicted to anything in a sexual way. I wish I could say I was the same.. !

Zeichnete
Jun 29th 2005, 03:37 AM
Ok everyone i will give you all my two cents on this subject, this is what i told someone else.


Ok first off, THERE IS NO SIN IN M*STERBATION!!!

here are some facts about m*sterbation

1)95% of guys do it, and the other 5% are liars, or so the saying goes
2)It is healthy, m*sterbation done reguraly helps prevent prostate cancer
3)it is hard, almost imposible to stop
4)Many teenage guys have turned away from God because they cant quit m*sterbating(more details later)
5)In a lot of cases(like in my case) it helps to prevent premaritial s*x


At one time in my life i have the same questions as a lot of you did, and i promised i would never do it again, i never lasted more then a week, and i would feel so bad about it, i would feel like i violated God. That is what i was talking about when i said it has turned people away from God. They try to stop, but they cant, then they feel that they are sinning against God but they still cant stop, so they just leave God because they feel that they cant please God because they just cant stop. That is true, I have been a Christian for a few years now, and i cant stop, never could, and for me it is an every day thing, and i feel no convition when doing it. Think about this, God made the male bodies to constantly produce seman, and after a while it is gotta come out, and if you are not having s*x, then it has got to come out by other means, that is why God gave all guys wet dreams. You know where you have a dream about s*x, and you wake up to find seman all over yourself in that area. M*sterbation is the same thing except you are awake. God himself made guys have wet dreams, so since m*sterbation is basicly the same thing just that is done while you are awake, what is wrong with it? Also if you read my post about not understanding what adults are talking about you may be surprised at some of the situations if have been in with Courtney and not been tempted to have s*x. I didnt say it on that post but my ability to not even be tempted to have s*x doesnt just come from prayer and will power alone, i also m*sterbate before i see her, then when i see her i have no seman in my system, aka i have no desire to have s*x. Then by the time my body has producied a bit of seman again i am not around her. So it has helped me alot in that area. Also i dont know if you all have heard about prostate cancer, but m*sterbating on a regular basses helps to prevent that, it follows along the "use it or lose it" philosphy In closing if you m*sterbate dont do it in a public place(DUH) do it privatly, try not to get what comes out on anything, except on tissues or paper towes, also moderation needs to be remembered, some people do it five times a day, remember if you m*sterbate that much your body will get use to producing large amounts of seman, and if something comes up and you cant m*sterbate, it will collect and it might hurt. I had to go on a vaction so with several days traveling, and being at other peoples house i couldnt do it, and man did all that being in me hurt, and until it came out i was in pain. So dont be obseive and if you dont know what i mean, i mean you dont need to do it more then once a day, you dont need to get stuffed anamilias and rub against them to m*sterbate, and you dont need to be looking at p*rn pics while you m*sterbate. in wet dreams we dream of s*x and God made us have wet dreams so what is wrong with thinking of having s*x while you m*sterbate. That is how i feel about the subject

SpartanII
Jun 29th 2005, 11:19 AM
You know where you have a dream about s*x, and you wake up to find seman all over yourself in that area. M*sterbation is the same thing except you are awake. God himself made guys have wet dreams, so since m*sterbation is basicly the same thing just that is done while you are awake, what is wrong with it?

No. Wet dreams are unconscious acts, m@stbtion is a conscious act, usually involving lust, which is sinful, and that's what's wrong with it. If it doesn't involve lust, I see nothing wrong with it.

PLJ
Jun 30th 2005, 12:30 AM
2 John 2:16 mentions two types of lust. Lust of the eye and lust of the flesh. I believe that mastoorbation is the latter.

(If God made men have wet dreams to expel old semin then you should just let that happen naturally rather than physically touching yourself and sinning against your own flesh.)

Zeichnete
Jun 30th 2005, 12:45 AM
(If God made men have wet dreams to expel old semin then you should just let that happen naturally rather than physically touching yourself and sinning against your own flesh.)

because it is healtier to m*sterbate and doesnt hurt as bad. I dont wanna end up with prostate cancer. Also IT IS NOT SINNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PLJ
Jun 30th 2005, 01:10 AM
That is funny! What do you mean it hurts?!?!? And, how do you interpret 2 John 2:16?

It's tough I know.

Jungleman
Jun 30th 2005, 03:18 AM
Zeichnete, everything you've said is americanized bullcrap. It doesnt help prevent prostate cancer, if you want to hear that argument go read "I kissed dating goodbye." I've never ed in my life, I have looked at though. Most people don't beleive me, but I dont really care. My point it's possible to not do. We have nocturnal emissions that release the pressure, you may notice these when you wake up sometimes. Some doctors say we can't even tell we have them sometimes, which would explain a lot. ion leads you to premarital if anything else, it's just one step closer to wanting more.

Zeichnete
Jun 30th 2005, 05:02 AM
Zeichnete, everything you've said is americanized bullcrap.

call it what you want, no one is changing how i believe.


also Plj i may be deferent but wet dreams have always been painful for me, also there is no such verse as 2 john 2:16

Bloopy
Jun 30th 2005, 06:08 AM
Guys,:confused ...come on There is way to much bickering and arguing going on for us all to be Christians. Christian=Christ Like (eh, it goes back to the WWJD thing)

anyways, Levitacus chapter 15. Thats all the proof you should need.

And there is no way you can MB and not get something out of it, some form of pleasure. Its a form of lust, ure sinning against ure body. It isnt natural to MB. A long time ago people got married when they were as young as 13 years old. And thats the age when people start to get sexual desires. So its normal to have them. You just need to show self control (one of the fruits by the way)

and yes, look up the words Lust and Fornication before you start saying there isnt any biblical proof that MB is a sin.

Zeichnete
Jun 30th 2005, 03:38 PM
and yes, look up the words Lust and Fornication before you start saying there isnt any biblical proof that MB is a sin.


do you know what the problem is? there is sooo much lost in translation when it comes to the bible, unless you can read hebrew you dont know what the origional words of the bible were. Have you ever considered the possibility that those who translated the bible took verses to mean something other then what God meant it to mean, and the translators also could have put their own bias into the translation? Here is an example of what i am talking about, many people say that the Bible says thou shalt not kill, so people take it to mean killing is wrong in every since, that is simpley not true, the hebrew word in that commanment means thou shalt not murder, and murder and killing are different, murder is a pre-meditated choice to kill somone with out a good reason, God wasnt saying that killing in a war was wrong or killing someone who is treating your life is wrong. Also when God speaks of adultry in the bible He isnt speaking of s*xual sins specificly He is referring to rebellion against God. You see so many things in the bible can be taken different ways, Do you think that God meant for 1 verse to be taken 100 different ways? that is something to consider in this argument or debate, whatever you call it. I mean if m*sterbation was wrong why doesnt God outright say, "Thou shalt not m*sterbate"? Now in the old testiment God speaks of the females peroids and a "spilage of seaman" as basicly the same things, a normal process that everone goes through. I still say that there is no sin in m*sterbation, my brother(who is an adult) finds absolutly nothing wrong with it, my mother knows i do it, and she hasnt stoped me, my grilfriend knows i do it and she actually said if i told her that i didnt she would of said outright that i was a liar, i know of other adults that say there is absolutly nothing wrong with it, and every person i have just mentioned is a born again Christian and all of them have been saved longer then me. Why do they say there is nothing wrong with it? it is simple, there is NOTHING wrong with m*sterbation

Mighty Mutt
Jun 30th 2005, 04:08 PM
call it what you want, no one is changing how i believe.


also Plj i may be deferent but wet dreams have always been painful for me, also there is no such verse as 2 john 2:16

There is a Proverbs 1:5, you proud young man. "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels"

Mighty Mutt
Jun 30th 2005, 04:16 PM
do you know what the problem is? there is sooo much lost in translation when it comes to the bible, unless you can read hebrew you dont know what the origional words of the bible were.

Do you know Hebrew?


Have you ever considered the possibility that those who translated the bible took verses to mean something other then what God meant it to mean, and the translators also could have put their own bias into the translation?

Or that you put your bias into your interpretation?


Also when God speaks of adultry in the bible He isnt speaking of s*xual sins specificly He is referring to rebellion against God.

Some times yes, and other times adultery is just adultery.


You see so many things in the bible can be taken different ways, Do you think that God meant for 1 verse to be taken 100 different ways?

Which is why the church works together guided by the Holy Spirit to hopefully come to consensus on troubling issues, Grasshopper.


that is something to consider in this argument or debate, whatever you call it. I mean if m*sterbation was wrong why doesnt God outright say, "Thou shalt not m*sterbate"? Now in the old testiment God speaks of the females peroids and a "spilage of seaman" as basicly the same things, a normal process that everone goes through.

There are lots of things God doesn't come right out and spell out in scripture. I would love, by the way, to see your evidence of periods and masturbation being "basically the same thing." Can a woman not menstruate?


I still say that there is no sin in m*sterbation,

So?


my brother(who is an adult) finds absolutly nothing wrong with it,

So?


my mother knows i do it, and she hasnt stoped me,

So?


my grilfriend knows i do it and she actually said if i told her that i didnt she would of said outright that i was a liar,

So?


i know of other adults that say there is absolutly nothing wrong with it,

So?


and every person i have just mentioned is a born again Christian and all of them have been saved longer then me. Why do they say there is nothing wrong with it? it is simple, there is NOTHING wrong with m*sterbation

Maybe you'd be better suited worrying about scripture instead of what "everyone else" tells you.

Jungleman
Jun 30th 2005, 05:55 PM
Mighty Mutt you're the best.:pp

Jungleman
Jun 30th 2005, 06:01 PM
Well Z, you can't say there is nothing wrong with m@sT******** because you're posting here, so you obviously feel wrong about it.

lbeaty1981
Jun 30th 2005, 07:09 PM
Just wanted to pop in with a little Romans 14 action, although I think it was posted a few pages back...
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.


One more thing I just noticed at the end of the chapter...
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Zeichnete
Jun 30th 2005, 08:31 PM
Well Z, you can't say there is nothing wrong with m@sT******** because you're posting here, so you obviously feel wrong about it.

ah dude that makes no sense, if i felt wrong about it I wouldnt do it. What does posting here have to do with it? oh well if you guys are trying to make me feel guilty about doing it, it isnt working, since there is nothing wrong with it i have no guilt at all, i never have. I still hold to the fact that it is a great thing. However i am rememinded of what one of my teachers told me i dont remember word for word but she basicly said Chirstians all over the wrold have slighty different views so we need to agree to disagree and disagree agreably. You guys have the right to your opinion and i have mine, but as usual no one respects my opinions

Zeichnete
Jun 30th 2005, 08:34 PM
There is a Proverbs 1:5, you proud young man. "A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels"

i am very much aware of that, and i do listen to counsil, the counsel of the Christian adults that have tought me that there is nothing wrong with m*sterbation. And speaking of pride it would apear that you are saying what you say is "wise"

SpartanII
Jun 30th 2005, 11:39 PM
Do you know Hebrew?



Or that you put your bias into your interpretation?



Some times yes, and other times adultery is just adultery.



Which is why the church works together guided by the Holy Spirit to hopefully come to consensus on troubling issues, Grasshopper.



There are lots of things God doesn't come right out and spell out in scripture. I would love, by the way, to see your evidence of periods and masturbation being "basically the same thing." Can a woman not menstruate?



So?



So?



So?



So?



So?



Maybe you'd be better suited worrying about scripture instead of what "everyone else" tells you.
OWNAGE!


Z, You claim that there is "nothing wrong with masturbation". Let me ask you this: What's on your mind when you do it? (No details, please)

Zeichnete
Jun 30th 2005, 11:49 PM
Z, You claim that there is "nothing wrong with masturbation". Let me ask you this: What's on your mind when you do it? (No details, please)

i know what you mean, i used to think of s*x and look at p*rn when i used to do it and i am sure we all agree that that was wrong, but that was the old me. Now when i do it i have no erotic material in front of me or in my mind, i am honestly thinking, "You stupid seaman i am to young to need you so get out of my body and stay out till i am married and can have s*x"


anybody else wanna hate on me? help yourselves i am used to it :D

SpartanII
Jul 1st 2005, 12:51 AM
"You stupid seaman i am to young to need you so get out of my body and stay out till i am married and can have s*x"


:rofl:

That's awesome.....

Zeichnete
Jul 1st 2005, 01:14 AM
:rofl:

That's awesome.....

i know it is, but that is seriously what i am thinking, lol Like i said before i am sure we all agree that pretending your having s*x with someone or looking at p*rn while m*sterbating is wrong, and like i also said before, I also think rubbing against stuffed anamils to m*sterbate isnt right either. I am still young and just learning what love is and i dont need a s*x drive at my age, correct me if i am wrong but doesnt having seaman in your system give you the s*x drive? I mean you cant have s*x without seaman

PLJ
Jul 1st 2005, 02:03 AM
Plj i may be deferent but wet dreams have always been painful for me, also there is no such verse as 2 john 2:16

Uhh, ehr, sorry that would be 1 John 2:16.

I'm not picking a fight with you dude. But I think it's wrong and you should try to understand that right now you are preparing to be a husband. Maybe Courtney's. So, umm, try to have some restraint.

Mighty Mutt
Jul 1st 2005, 02:06 AM
Hey Big Z... my point is to not listen solely to people who tell you what you want to hear. No one is "hating on you."

Anyway, I really want to see this:


Now in the old testiment God speaks of the females peroids and a "spilage of seaman" as basicly the same things, a normal process that everone goes through.
Put up or shut up.

Zeichnete
Jul 1st 2005, 03:18 AM
ok mutt you want my answer to what i said ah, well here is where i get that. Leviticus chapter 15, it talks of both the females monthly period and the males, "Emmesion of seamen" When they happened to the people the Lord required the same thing for both, which was offerings and a period of clensing, because it was considered unclean. Because both periods and emessions of seaman are messy. The Lord does not deem this sin he merly says it is unclean and you must clean yourself.

ok now pjl i believe you wanted to know how i inturpret that verse you mentioned. I intreprete to mean that the desire to do wrong, and lusting after somone and bragging come from the world. However may i ask what that has to do with this? you see like i said, i do not m*sterbate out of lust i do it to get the seaman out, and about that restraint thingie you said, how do you explain the fact that it greatly helps in not being tempted at all to have s*x with Courtney? like i said the seaman in the system gives you your drive, no seaman no drive no drive no premarital s*x

oh and mighty mutt i find it hard to believe that u guys are not hateing on me, i mean i have told you that i know strong God-fearing Christians that say masterbation isnt sin, but you all say that they are just saying what i want to hear, these are well respected men and women that know what they are talking about, and on my own i still believe there is no sin in m*sterbation. But like i said i dont mind you all can keep yelling at me or whatever you do, cause it is hard to make me mad :cool:

Jungleman
Jul 1st 2005, 04:59 AM
The enemy is making you feel good about it so you don't have a guilt conscience. Just like the old proverb says "A little more leads to a little more leads to a little more." You honestly think you can date a and e without being tempted? You have to set up boundaries, no matter how fortified of a christian christ has made you, we all have breaking points which we have to watch.

SpartanII
Jul 1st 2005, 05:20 AM
i do it to get the seaman out

ROFL :lol: Dude, you're hilarious...

BUT, your whole argument sounds like you're trying to justify the act, although I could be wrong, I don't know your heart.

Zeichnete
Jul 1st 2005, 05:23 AM
The enemy is making you feel good about it so you don't have a guilt conscience. Just like the old proverb says "A little more leads to a little more leads to a little more." You honestly think you can date a and e without being tempted? You have to set up boundaries, no matter how fortified of a christian christ has made you, we all have breaking points which we have to watch.

dude we have boundries, but I can honestly say it has been five months and i havnt been tempted once

Jungleman
Jul 1st 2005, 05:25 AM
Just be careful man, it's awfully easy to fall into things.

Mighty Mutt
Jul 1st 2005, 05:32 AM
oh and mighty mutt i find it hard to believe that u guys are not hateing on me, i mean i have told you that i know strong God-fearing Christians that say masterbation isnt sin, but you all say that they are just saying what i want to hear, these are well respected men and women that know what they are talking about, and on my own i still believe there is no sin in m*sterbation.

Okey dokey then. Sounds like you got it all figured out. :)

Zeichnete
Jul 1st 2005, 05:40 AM
ROFL :lol: Dude, you're hilarious...

BUT, your whole argument sounds like you're trying to justify the act, although I could be wrong, I don't know your heart.

nah i dont need to justfy doing something that isnt wrong to do, and only God and me know my heart

You all can say what you wish, but even if you threatend to kill me it wouldnt change my mind so no one is ever going succed in convinciing me it is wrong, so is there any point in continuing this argument? You guys believe as you have in the past, and i will do likewise, cause as long as we all believe In the same God and worship Him and believe that he sent His son to die for us there is no real problem between us. Now if you all tried you could probably convince me playing with knives and electric table saws is dangerious(and for the record those fingers are still on my hand):rofl:, you could problably show me that there is still more about love that i dont know yet, You could probably convince me of many things(with biblical proof of course) but it is a hopeless to try to convince me that m*sterbation is a sin

Zeichnete
Jul 1st 2005, 05:45 AM
I would also like to say that Christians disagree on many things but God loves us all, and we need to have a godly love for each other, I respect all of you and think of you as great men of God, i just honestly disagree with you all on this one issue.

FISH
Jul 1st 2005, 02:04 PM
How can you masterbate without lusting, Married or unmarried?

I mean when one masterbates does he then think of the price of hamburger or big white marshmallows in order not to lust. No what he does is he fantasizes normaly about other women, Then what happens after a while, it turns into habit where other forms of sexual fantasy are reached to try and satisfy yourself. But of course even that is only temporary, Eventualy if you cannot control yourself and history has proven that most cannot, Then you may turn to porn via the internet or wherever to help fuel your habit and so on and so on. Otherwize masterbation leads to other temptations.



This is totaly untrue .I never ever ,ever think of other woman other than my wife ever period ! I would like someone to show me scripture ANYWHERE in the bible that says if you only had thoughts of your spouse and there was no porno that it is sin for a man to master%ate . As a man thinks in his heart so he is .DOES EVERYBODY WHO MASTER%ATES HAVE TO GO TO A PORNO SITE OR THINK OF OTHER WOMAN ? Wow I say no way .Guys if your wife wanted s*x more than you did for whatever reason say you where gone at work or on a trip and the two of you couldent get together or whatever I dont think it would be wrong at all for her to maste*ate again if the thougts are of the two of you and no porn no bad thoughts .If someone could show me different in scripture that this type of master%ation is wrong I would like to see it for ether a man or woman .......Fish

FISH
Jul 1st 2005, 02:22 PM
[QUOTE=Alastair]Thankyou for your two cents Dave,

I even kondone some forms of gambeling because we know that some forms of gambeling can lead to serious problems and of course its not a sin to gamble.

You need to read your word brother Gambling is a sin (You shall not cast your lot for foolish gain .

Zeichnete
Jul 1st 2005, 03:00 PM
This is totaly untrue .I never ever ,ever think of other woman other than my wife ever period ! I would like someone to show me scripture ANYWHERE in the bible that says if you only had thoughts of your spouse and there was no porno that it is sin for a man to master%ate . As a man thinks in his heart so he is .DOES EVERYBODY WHO MASTER%ATES HAVE TO GO TO A PORNO SITE OR THINK OF OTHER WOMAN ? Wow I say no way .Guys if your wife wanted s*x more than you did for whatever reason say you where gone at work or on a trip and the two of you couldent get together or whatever I dont think it would be wrong at all for her to maste*ate again if the thougts are of the two of you and no porn no bad thoughts .If someone could show me different in scripture that this type of master%ation is wrong I would like to see it for ether a man or woman .......Fish

Like i said i used to look at P*rn but God and Courtney got me over it, now i try not to think of Courtney when i m*sterbate because she isnt my wife...yet. After I am married to her, then i can think about her, and there would be nothing wrong with her doing it while i am gone. I mean i do think it wrong to think of someone other then your marriage partner, when you m*sterbate. there is something else to consider, you see i m*sterbate to control my s*x drive, and if that is why i do then looking at p*rn will just make it worse, because being constantly exposed to the beauty of naked females, your seaman production will increase, and more seaman means a greater s*x drive, and if i hadnt quit looking at p*rn i wouldnt even trust myself with Courtney

Zeichnete
Jul 1st 2005, 03:03 PM
Guys if your wife wanted s*x more than you did....

ok i will be honest i cant see that happening with me, since i am waiting till marriage i will as, Pam Stenzel said, "Pay now and Play later":D and by pay now she meant you endure the insults of being a virgin before marriage, and by play later, well you can guess what she meant

Mighty Mutt
Jul 1st 2005, 06:02 PM
Okay Big Z... gotta tell you: the word is "semen." "Seaman" is someone in the navy, and it kinda changes everything you're saying. :eek: :lol: :rofl:

slightlypuzzled
Jul 1st 2005, 07:39 PM
Yeah Mutt...but you know what they say about sailors on shore leave...... :lol:

Zeichnete
Jul 2nd 2005, 12:24 AM
Okay Big Z... gotta tell you: the word is "semen." "Seaman" is someone in the navy, and it kinda changes everything you're saying. :eek: :lol: :rofl:

oops, lol, well you know what i mean, but i dont know how to spell it

Kendon
Jul 11th 2005, 12:29 PM
Aren't there certain health-benefits to masturbating?

Like a reduced chance of ending up with prostate cancer, and keeping a healthy libido?

SammeyDW
Jul 11th 2005, 01:17 PM
Yeah Mutt...but you know what they say about sailors on shore leave...... :lol:

They leave one person behind, and come home to two..... :lol:

Clouds & Spikes
Jul 11th 2005, 02:55 PM
Aren't there certain health-benefits to masturbating?

Like a reduced chance of ending up with prostate cancer, and keeping a healthy libido?

I've heard that as well...


I read a news article on Yahoo news about it helping prevent prostate cancer.



Brandon

Steve M
Jul 11th 2005, 03:23 PM
Aren't there certain health-benefits to masturbating?

Like a reduced chance of ending up with prostate cancer, and keeping a healthy libido?
I've heard that, but never seen hard-science confirmation. If any of you guys with a little time (and a faster internet connection than mine!) could do a little research on this....

DaniB
Jul 11th 2005, 05:39 PM
edit.............................................. .....

Toolman
Jul 11th 2005, 08:11 PM
I've heard that, but never seen hard-science confirmation. If any of you guys with a little time (and a faster internet connection than mine!) could do a little research on this....

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4861

Most doctors also recommend kegels for a healthy prostate and maintaining strong erections as you age.

Tube Socks Dude
Jul 12th 2005, 06:58 PM
I just read the newscientist article. It recommends ejaculations every second day or so. Even if I were to accept their findings related to prostate cancer, I would seriously question such a frequency. Somewhere along the line, when discussing this issue, I was told that sperm cells begin to get old after three days. Supposedly, without regular release, most of what is stored consists of dead or dying cells, not healthy, viable sperm. I'm going to have to look it up. All I know is that this seems to correlate with my own three-day rhythm during periods where I have indulged in masturbation. Even if I were to start masturbating regularly, I would keep from doing it every other day. For me, any less than 72 hours would constitute stress relief or recreation, not prostate health. I do wish it could be medically proven good for a single man to flush out the pipes occasionally. Then again, I guess struggling against masturbation has become almost as much of an ingrained habit as giving in to it can be. Being told all my life that it was sinful conditioned me to the point that even if it is not sinful, I would somehow miss the challenge of an old foe. Like a trained gladiator with nobody to fight. Weird, huh?

I'm going to do some research on kegels. Maybe that is something I can do for prostate health, and to prepare for marriage.

Maverick

Toolman
Jul 12th 2005, 07:03 PM
I just read the newscientist article. It recommends 12 ejaculations per month, equalling approximately every other day. Even if I were to accept their findings related to prostate cancer, I would seriously question a 48-hour frequency. Somewhere along the line, when discussing this issue, I was told that sperm cells begin to get old after three days. Supposedly, without regular release, most of what is stored consists of dead or dying cells, not healthy, viable sperm. I'm going to have to look it up. All I know is that this seems to correlate with my own three-day rhythm during periods where I have indulged in masturbation. Even if I were to start masturbating regularly, I would keep from doing it 12 times a month. For me, any less than 72 hours would constitute stress relief or recreation, not prostate health. I do wish it could be medically proven good for a single man to flush out the pipes occasionally. Then again, I guess struggling against masturbation has become almost as much of a habit as giving in can be. Being told all my life that it was sinful has me so conditioned, that even if it is not sinful, I think I would miss having that old foe to fight. Weird, huh?

I think each man's sexual levels are different, per man and change with age and other factors, so I agree that a 2 day frequency is probably an average as opposed to a fixed number for all men.


I'm going to do some research on kegels. Maybe that is something I can do for prostate health, and to prepare for marriage.


I wholeheartedly recommend them for both prostrate/penile health and sex in marriage.
They are also extremely beneficial for women.

Fubajuba
Jul 16th 2005, 02:44 PM
Well, after reading some peoples posts on this, I will give my 2 cents.

A couple months ago, my youth group had 2 weeks put togethger to talk to us about s*x. They brought the guys into one room, girls into another. The guys talked only about this basically.

We established THAT IT IS MOST DEFINITELY A SIN. Here is a question for all men in this world. Can you "do the act by yourself" (dont feel like censoring right now) WITH OUT LUSTING? At all? The moment a woman pops into your mind, it's sin. Now, the only exception would be in the bedroom with your wife, but thats only if its with her, not to some other woman.

Point#2: S*x was something made by God to be between a man and a woman. It is meant to be an act of love. When having it, you are trying to make the other person (your wife, guys, and only her) feel good. "Doing the act by yourself" (i also can't think of any clever synonymns or catch phrases) is only to please you. It is a selfish act. Doing with visual aid or even without is only pleasing yourself.

revrobor
Jul 19th 2005, 07:49 AM
"How can you masturbate without lusting, Married or unmarried?"

The assumption that one (male or female) must lust to masturbate is erroneous and is frequently used by those who are attempting to establish a Biblical prohibition of the act. The Bible does not address the issue.

It can be a purely physical act.

I am not encouraging the act but attempting to discourage the twisting of Scripture (like the use of the Onan story) and the application to all of what may go through the minds of some during the act.

Fubajuba
Jul 19th 2005, 05:17 PM
Well, answer this question then... How exactly can you without lusting? I also saw no challenge to the statement i made that sex was made to between a man and wife together, and only that. Mast***ation is not even close to that. It is a s*xual act. I know you weren't speaking to me about the twisting of scripture, but how exactly is it manipulating scripture? Tell me, can you do it without lusting? Ever? If you are doing it with the thought of your wife in your mind and it's something in the bedroom with your wife, I have no idea about the right or wrong-ness of it. I am not to judge what is right or wrong. Mast***ation is sinful in every molecule of it's nature. It's selfish in that it only is pleasing to one person. It is wrong in that you lust while doing so. Here's yet another question I'd like to pose to anyone trying to defend it.... Would you do it right in front of Jesus himself? I would have s*x with my wife, because that would be an act of love and intimacy, in front of Him. I would never do the other. We are to do all for the glory of God. I do not see mast***ating as glorious in God's eyes.

Toolman
Jul 19th 2005, 05:53 PM
I also saw no challenge to the statement i made that sex was made to between a man and wife together, and only that. Mast***ation is not even close to that. It is a s*xual act.

If ejaculation is only to occur when sex is between a man and woman and God created it that way and only that way then can you explain nocturnal emissions?


It's selfish in that it only is pleasing to one person.

Couldn't the same be said of any kind of pleasure like eating a piece of cheesecake or watching a football game, etc.?


It is wrong in that you lust while doing so.

It appears that YOU lust while doing it while there are others who DO NOT lust while doing it.

Can you allow for the possibility that there are other people who are different from you?

revrobor
Jul 19th 2005, 07:10 PM
Thanks Toolman. I didn't want to have to repeat myself or tell him it's not my job to give him instructions on how to perform the act or that he's got no business delving into my personal sex life or that I clearly said I was not encouraging (or "defending") the act or that he cannot issue a blanket condemnation of something based on twisted Scripture or personal assumptions.

whitestone
Jul 19th 2005, 08:22 PM
Hi Fubajuba,

I haven't read the whole thread, but wanted to respond to some things and ask some questions about others regarding your last post.
Please forgive me if any of these same points were already addressed or same questions asked.
Well, answer this question then... How exactly can you without lusting? The same way one keeps from not being humble.
By bringing every thought into subjection of Christ.
sex was made to between a man and wife together, and only that. Mast***ation is not even close to that. It is a s*xual act. How do you define a s*xual act biblically?
And what does "together" mean in that regard(biblically)?
and how then does "together" fit into the definition of s*xual act?
For example, if a wife coaxes her husband to ej*ct sp*rm to use later
because of fertility difficulties in conceiving a child (to bring glory to God)....
What if this coaxing took place while the man and woman
were not in proximity to be able to touch each other?
What if the man did the touching to successfully ej*ct?

Mast***ation is sinful in every molecule of it's nature. See above.

Where does sin originate? in the body? or in the heart?
It's selfish in that it only is pleasing to one person. See above...and above.
Change "It's selfish" to "It can be from selfishness" and your statement would ring true.
It is wrong in that you lust while doing so. It is wrong to lust period, regardless of your activity.
Lust is in the heart.

May the Lord richly bless you in all good things.
Your brother in Christ,
Eric %^)
*hug*

:D

Fubajuba
Jul 19th 2005, 09:32 PM
Can you show me other people who ARE different from me? Those nocturnal emisions are involuntary, therefor, not sinful in nature because it is your body's method of disposing of the excess fluids (That's generally why it happens). I am not trying to attack anyone's personal life or beliefs. I simply do not see how it would be biblically-approved. The only actions I am 100% sure of doing without sinning are those defended by the bible. This is not one of those actions, therefor, I wouldn't be 100% certain.

I am not denying the possibility of not lusting while doing it. I am simply saying I am yet to meet a single human being who has been able to do that. I am about to start a study on a book called "Sex and the Supremecy of Christ". Masturbation is attacked (atleast from what I saw on a video about the book) in it.

And, I still back my challenge of doing it in front of Christ himself. Would you be comfortable mast***ating in front of Christ?

Toolman
Jul 19th 2005, 10:01 PM
Can you show me other people who ARE different from me?

Yes.

Romans 14:1-6 - Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.


Those nocturnal emisions are involuntary, therefor, not sinful in nature because it is your body's method of disposing of the excess fluids (That's generally why it happens).

My point wasn't whether it was involuntary or not but your claim was that sex and orgasm was strictly to be between a man and woman and that was by God's design then nocturnal emissions present a problem to that view.


I am not trying to attack anyone's personal life or beliefs. I simply do not see how it would be biblically-approved. The only actions I am 100% sure of doing without sinning are those defended by the bible. This is not one of those actions, therefor, I wouldn't be 100% certain.

That's why they call it a grey area and why Romans 14 goes to great length to allow for different people to come to different conclusions in grey areas.

But your original post said this:

We established THAT IT IS MOST DEFINITELY A SIN

That statement made it sound like you were 100% certain that masturbation was a sin 100% of the time for 100% of people.


I am not denying the possibility of not lusting while doing it.

That's good.


I am simply saying I am yet to meet a single human being who has been able to do that.

Well that is perhaps lack of exposure but doesn't negate the possibility that there are some.


I am about to start a study on a book called "Sex and the Supremecy of Christ". Masturbation is attacked (atleast from what I saw on a video about the book) in it.

You might also be interested in this book also:
The Sexual Man by Archibald D. Hart (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0849936845/qid=1121810073/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-9560004-4895857)


And, I still back my challenge of doing it in front of Christ himself. Would you be comfortable mast***ating in front of Christ?

Really doesn't address the issue of whether it is sin or not.

Many Christians are shamed of many things that are not sin because of the weakness of their faith.

Some Christians believe sex is only for procreation and do not allow for sex being for pleasure only.

Others are raised to be ashamed of their bodies and sexuality because of extra-biblical restrictions and would be ashamed to have sex with their mate in front of Christ.

Some are brought up to believe that alcohol or rich foods are a sin and they abstain from such because of that belief and would be ashamed to enjoy such in front of Christ.

Doesn't mean that any of that is correct or any of that is sinful just because someone is ashamed.
Remember that the first reaction of Adam after eating the fruit was to be ashamed of his nakedness. Before that point he was not ashamed and God didn't have a problem with it.

FWIW.

whitestone
Jul 19th 2005, 10:20 PM
Hello Fubajuba,
I simply do not see how it would be biblically-approved. I hope the example I cited gives you something to study.
The only actions I am 100% sure of doing without sinning are those defended by the bible. This is not one of those actions, therefor, I wouldn't be 100% certain. To not be certain is when grace should be shown to those who are certain. ( And vice-versa, of course. ) And to study more. But to say(and you didn't) that someone cannot do something simply becasue you have never seen it done, mast*** without lusting, is without sound basis for making blanket condemnation.
I am yet to meet a single human being who has been able to do that. Basing biblical beliefs on personal experiences (limited at best) is not a good practice.
I am about to start a study on a book called "Sex and the Supremecy of Christ". A personal study of the Book of books under the leading of the Holy Ghost might be more beneficial. Do you know the Author personally?
He promised to guide you into all truth and is available for personal one-on-one consultation when you get stuck understanding how topics relate to His Book.
Masturbation is attacked (atleast from what I saw on a video about the book) in it. It would be interesting to see if they address examples like the one in my first post.
And, I still back my challenge of doing it in front of Christ himself. Would you be comfortable mast***ating in front of Christ? Yes. Not lusting. But mast***, yes without lust, yes.
Please consider your challenge met now.


Meanwhile, consider yourself encouraged as well.
You seem to be diligently searching. THAT is commendable before God and men.

Blessings!
Your brother, Eric
%^)
*hug*

Fubajuba
Jul 20th 2005, 02:16 PM
That's why they call it a grey area and why Romans 14 goes to great length to allow for different people to come to different conclusions in grey areas.

Ok. But you realize different people coming to different conclusions in the end means nothing, because no matter how right you may think something is, it can be wrong simply because God says so.

It is a risky thing to accept those "grey areas" as not-sinful, because it is in fact a grey area. Any doubt at all about an action you are doing should be a red flag of not doing it.

I am not told there to go on and let someone continue sinning, and feel justified in doing so. I will not just sit down and say "Oh, they think it's ok, I don't, let's be friends". No, I apoligize for being this way, but I refuse.

To not be certain is when grace should be shown to those who are certain. ( And vice-versa, of course. ) And to study more. But to say(and you didn't) that someone cannot do something simply becasue you have never seen it done, mast*** without lusting, is without sound basis for making blanket condemnation.

Ok, So am I supposed to accept your guys' belief because I am not sure of it being safe to do because the Bible doesn't support it?

I am sorry, I will not back down on my belief of masturbation being wrong. You realize that even if you CAN do it without lust, which I will also not back down on saying that I highly doubt (actually I don't believe any of you here do) that you can, if you have done it ONCE in your life and you DID in fact lust, how can that action be Biblically sound. It is an action you should repent from.

It would be like me smoking pot because it didn't get me high. It didn't really do anythhing to me, I wasn't in an altered state. It would still be wrong, on many levels.

Now, another challenge posed... In your marriage, apart from it being some sort of behavior you exercise with your wife, would you mast***ate, and would it be beneficial to your marriage? I *KNOW* my wife would be hurt if I still did it while I was married. No porn would have to be involved. Just her knowing I am doing that even while she is still there, even if it was to the thought of her, she would be hurt. It would appear that I was unsatisfied or distant.

Everything may be permissable, but is it beneficial? How are you glorifying God by using the sexuality you have been given by him for your own personal means? When you have sex with your wife, and it is an act of love and intimacy, you are doing what God has told you to.

These "grey areas" cannot be so easily accepted as not sinful. Abortion would be a grey area, just as much as mast***ation, but an overwhelming percent of practicing Christians are against it. Why? The bible never talks about abortion? Because it is MURDER. Why must the bible specifically speak out against mast***ation for it to be wrong?

And I will pose this question again.... Are any of YOU capable of doing it without lusting, EVERY time you do it?

Toolman
Jul 20th 2005, 02:48 PM
Ok. But you realize different people coming to different conclusions in the end means nothing, because no matter how right you may think something is, it can be wrong simply because God says so.

But He didn't. That is the point.


It is a risky thing to accept those "grey areas" as not-sinful, because it is in fact a grey area. Any doubt at all about an action you are doing should be a red flag of not doing it.

Not all have the doubts that you have.

Also doubts can come from weak faith as Romans 14 shows.
There is nothing wrong with eating meat but some at that time were convicted that they should eat vegetables only. Paul said their faith was weak.

Romans 14:1-4 - Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.


I am not told there to go on and let someone continue sinning, and feel justified in doing so. I will not just sit down and say "Oh, they think it's ok, I don't, let's be friends". No, I apoligize for being this way, but I refuse.

But if you have a Christian brother who tells you that he is not convicted in an area and you judge him then you are disobeying the clear command of scripture.

Romans 14:1-4 - Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything MUST NOT condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.


Ok, So am I supposed to accept your guys' belief because I am not sure of it being safe to do because the Bible doesn't support it?

No one is trying to convince YOU to DO anything that you are convicted NOT to do. If you are convicted that it is a sin then you should refrain from doing it.

The issue is that you made a blanket statement that masturbation was a sin for all people 100% of the time. This is extra-biblical and it is not in your power to determine what is and is not sin for another, when it is not detailed in scripture as such.


I am sorry, I will not back down on my belief of masturbation being wrong.

Doesn't really matter. The scripture is the final authority for all things concerning life and faith and not your personal convictions.

Don't apologize if YOU are convicted but don't force your convictions on others, that is clearly restricted in scripture to do so.


You realize that even if you CAN do it without lust, which I will also not back down on saying that I highly doubt (actually I don't believe any of you here do) that you can, if you have done it ONCE in your life and you DID in fact lust, how can that action be Biblically sound. It is an action you should repent from.

So now you are calling those who have said they can liars. Be careful of false witness and slander my young friend.


Now, another challenge posed... In your marriage, apart from it being some sort of behavior you exercise with your wife, would you mast***ate, and would it be beneficial to your marriage? I *KNOW* my wife would be hurt if I still did it while I was married. No porn would have to be involved. Just her knowing I am doing that even while she is still there, even if it was to the thought of her, she would be hurt. It would appear that I was unsatisfied or distant.

If it hurt your wife's feelings (because of her insecurities more than likely) then it is something that you should refrain from.

That doesn't address whether the act is sinful for all people.


Everything may be permissable, but is it beneficial? How are you glorifying God by using the sexuality you have been given by him for your own personal means? When you have sex with your wife, and it is an act of love and intimacy, you are doing what God has told you to.

Not all men have a wife so once again you are using to broad a brush.


These "grey areas" cannot be so easily accepted as not sinful. Abortion would be a grey area, just as much as mast***ation, but an overwhelming percent of practicing Christians are against it. Why? The bible never talks about abortion? Because it is MURDER. Why must the bible specifically speak out against mast***ation for it to be wrong?

Because abortion is murder pure and simple. Just as much as beheading or gassing is murder. Just because it has a specific name doesn't make it not murder.

Masturbation is never, not one time, condemned in scripture. Its as simple as that.

To force YOUR conviction on others is clearly against what scripture teaches in Romans 14.


And I will pose this question again.... Are any of YOU capable of doing it without lusting, EVERY time you do it?

Lets take another example. Lets say that one time you happened to lust for another woman when having sex with your wife. Does that mean you should never have sex with your wife again?

By your logic then you should never have sex with your wife again.

What if you overate on time (gluttony, lust) at dinner. Does that mean you should never eat again?

BTW - Fubajuba, I realize you are a young guy and a young Christian and I am not trying to come down to hard on you but I am trying to point out to you that your blanket 100% of the time for all people condemnation of something that scripture does not condemn is contrary to what scripture teaches us to do.
If it comes across to hard I apologize for that and hope that you will reflect on what I have said.

Fubajuba
Jul 20th 2005, 04:52 PM
I am not trying to make any of you out as any worse of a sinner than I am.

The Romans chapter you are speaking about is more directed toward doctrinal differences, not particular issues.

I just cannot see how you can say Abortion, without a doubt, is murder yet Masturbation, also not mentioned in the Bible, is debatable. What about euthanasia? That's not mentioned in the Bible, yet it is quickly considered Murder and Suicide at the same time. We connect a thing not directly mentioned in the Bible to sins that are. Same situation here. And yes, I am sincerely calling out those claiming to be able to not lust.

If you lust after another woman while having sex with your wife, you should repent from the lusting after another woman. You are supposed to have sex with your wife. This whole "grey area" is something we are not told to do. I do not see how God is glorified by mutilating your sexuality, lust or no lust. Lust is not always after a woman. I knew someone who had a blind friend that had a huge problem with all this. You'd think "How would he have this problem, never seeing a woman in his life?". He did it to the thought of cars, and everything about cars. This is just as much lust as if we were doing the same thing to the thought of a woman.

Scriptures clearly make sex out to be an act between a man and his wife, and that is it. If you do not have a wife, you are not to have sex. Mast***ation is an act of sex. Therefore, it is wrong.

And I am not calling anyone a liar. I am yet to see anyone come out and say "I mast***ate without lusting". If someone really does, then I'd like to know exactly what is going through their head while doing this? Jesus? I, completely honestly, don't see how that's possible.

Fubajuba
Jul 20th 2005, 05:03 PM
Also, about this thread as a whole.... There are guys even younger than me looking on here, desperate for answers because they are scared because teenage males almost ALWAYS struggle with this problem. I find it disheartening that most people here are merely comforting them into thinking its ok without lust.

Revelation 3:16
"So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth."

I am just scared FOR you guys for being lukewarm on this topic.

Toolman
Jul 20th 2005, 05:09 PM
The Romans chapter you are speaking about is more directed toward doctrinal differences, not particular issues.

No its not. Eating meat and vegetables is not a doctrinal issue, it is clearly a particular issue of conscience.


I just cannot see how you can say Abortion, without a doubt, is murder yet Masturbation, also not mentioned in the Bible, is debatable. What about euthanasia? That's not mentioned in the Bible, yet it is quickly considered Murder and Suicide at the same time. We connect a thing not directly mentioned in the Bible to sins that are. Same situation here.

That reasoning is unsound. Stabbing with a knife is not mentioned in the bible but it is clearly murdering someone. Same with shooting someone with a gun, it clearly kills the person. Euthanasia has the same result, the person dies.

The method of murder is not mentioned in scripture but murder is. If God had to define each style of murder the scripture would be neverending (thou shalt not shoot someone with a gun, neither shalt thou blow them up with a bomb, nor shalt you stab them with knife, etc. etc.)

But masturbation is not mentioned once in scripture. Lust, yes, masturbation, no.


And yes, I am sincerely calling out those claiming to be able to not lust.

Then you are disobeying waht Paul clearly taught in Romans 14 and that is your decision to do so.


If you lust after another woman while having sex with your wife, you should repent from the lusting after another woman.

Then the same is true with masturbation.


I do not see how God is glorified by mutilating your sexuality, lust or no lust. Lust is not always after a woman. I knew someone who had a blind friend that had a huge problem with all this. You'd think "How would he have this problem, never seeing a woman in his life?". He did it to the thought of cars, and everything about cars. This is just as much lust as if we were doing the same thing to the thought of a woman.

Those are just your thoughts and are not founded on scripture.


Scriptures clearly make sex out to be an act between a man and his wife, and that is it. If you do not have a wife, you are not to have sex. Mast***ation is an act of sex. Therefore, it is wrong.

That kind of thinking is somewhat ignorant, all humans are sexual beings with sexual organs.

Sex in scripture is sexual intercourse and is clearly defined as such.

Scripture makes no mention of masturbation or the prohibition of such.

Speak where the bible speaks and be silent where it is silent.


And I am not calling anyone a liar. I am yet to see anyone come out and say "I mast***ate without lusting". If someone really does, then I'd like to know exactly what is going through their head while doing this? Jesus? I, completely honestly, don't see how that's possible.

Just because you doubt and don't have the experience doesn't mean that you understand all people and their experience and what has been given them the capability to do just because you are unable to.

Toolman
Jul 20th 2005, 05:15 PM
Also, about this thread as a whole.... There are guys even younger than me looking on here, desperate for answers because they are scared because teenage males almost ALWAYS struggle with this problem. I find it disheartening that most people here are merely comforting them into thinking its ok without lust.

Revelation 3:16
"So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth."

I am just scared FOR you guys for being lukewarm on this topic.

And I am concerned for those who bring condemnation on those for whom Christ died.

Acts 15:10 - Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

Perhaps some should refrain from masturbating because of conviction or because of not being able to seperate lust.

Others are not under that conviction or inability.

There is room for both in the Body of Christ.

I am not lukewarm on the topic but wholeheartedly believe as I have stated.

whitestone
Jul 20th 2005, 08:06 PM
Hi Fubajuba,
Ok. But you realize different people coming to different conclusions in the end means nothing, because no matter how right you may think something is, it can be wrong simply because God says so. Correct. And God has not said so that you can point us toward, correct?
It is a risky thing to accept those "grey areas" as not-sinful, because it is in fact a grey area. Any doubt at all about an action you are doing should be a red flag of not doing it. I agree. Your conscience should have no doubt.
And, at that point, the area is not grey.

Ok, So am I supposed to accept your guys' belief because I am not sure of it being safe to do because the Bible doesn't support it? Absolutely not!!!
You should always seek the Holy Spirit's guidance.
And when "He" knows that you are ready and it is God's time,
then He will reveal truth to you.

Until then, if you cannot see lust(and you can't),
it is not appropriate to accuse others of lusting.

Accuse of mast**?, yes. For what good that would do.
Accuse of lusting? no.
And especially when there are biblically sound principles
for mast** without any other sinful behaviour involved.
( i.e., if I felt led to donate sperm to a childless couple, etc. )
I am sorry, I will not back down on my belief of masturbation being wrong. And as long as you continue to seek and study, I accept that as your belief.
I disagree. But I accept it. Agreeing to disagree if you will.

if you have done it ONCE in your life and you DID in fact lust, how can that action be Biblically sound. Doing it with lust is not biblically sound and I don't think that anyone has claimed that that would be. But not because of the behaviour, rather because of the LUST.
It would be like me smoking pot because it didn't get me high. It didn't really do anythhing to me, I wasn't in an altered state. It would still be wrong, on many levels. What levels?
That analogy would only apply if there was a reason(not sinful) for doing it.
For example, smoking pot can alleviate some symtoms of those who suffer with chronic diseases. Smoking pot, when legal, under those circumstances could not reasonably be said to be wrong as a blanket statement.
How are you glorifying God by using the sexuality you have been given by him for your own personal means? When you have sex with your wife, and it is an act of love and intimacy, you are doing what God has told you to. Actually, God told me to love my neighbor.
And if my neighbor needs my sperm in order to conceive a child for God's glory, am I to stop loving my neighbor because some think that it is wrong?
Abortion would be a grey area, just as much as mast***ation Not even in the same field of sport let alone the same ballpark.
Abortion kills human life. Enough said.
The bible never talks about abortion? Because it is MURDER. Why must the bible specifically speak out against mast***ation for it to be wrong? Because it is NOT murder?
In fact, it can be a way of creating LIFE.
And I will pose this question again.... Are any of YOU capable of doing it without lusting, EVERY time you do it? What does personal experience have to do with building sound biblical beliefs about a behaviour?

I could pose this -- Are you capable of not sinning each day?
We all sin in word, thought, and deed, each and every day.
That should not detract us from performing our stewardship responsibilities as best we can each and every day.



Love in Christ,
Eric %^)
PS: No one is advocating lusting.(That I have seen.)
If a person believes that they cannot perform this behaviour without lusting, that is another issue to weigh when deciding whether or not to do this.

whitestone
Jul 20th 2005, 08:33 PM
Hi Fubajuba,

Just trying to catch up.

I realize you have many replies and responders, so please, take your time.

I am yet to see anyone come out and say "I mast***ate without lusting". Fubajuba, I can mast***ate without lusting.
I, completely honestly, don't see how that's possible. I accept that you do not see how.


"bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ"
What does this mean?

Do we know how to be successful at this?

Asking God for wisdom and strength is a good start.




I am just scared FOR you guys for being lukewarm on this topic.Please explain how I am likewarm on this topic.
Else please take back your accusation.

If you did not mean me, please do not make blanket accusations.



God bless you and may He guide and direct your path.



Love your brother.

Love, Your brother, Eric %^)

*hug*

Fubajuba
Jul 21st 2005, 12:07 AM
I'm not going after anyone specifically. It appears that I've ruffled quite a few feathers here, so I have not gone out of my way to talk about anyone specifically.

Now, exactly what is going on in your mind while you do this, whitestone? Really, I am completely serious. I know you've said "Give every thought to God", but really, what does this mean in this case?

Also, I am saying that not YOU specifically are being lukewarm, but on this topic, being touchy-feely, or politically correct in trying to watch out for peoples feelings on this topic is being lukewarm. I am much happier that you CAME OUT AND SAID IT that you do it without lust. It just frustrates me hearing people say "You can't assume all people do it with lust" while they themselves do not deny it. I would much rather be dealing with someone who avidly backs up the other side, or avidly agrees with me. So far, no one agrees with me, which is scary to me.

Now, about this using of Romans, I am not out to condem anyone .I am not trying to say "EW LOOK YOU'RE A DIRTY SINNER!". I am trying to make you guys step a little out of your comfort zones. If you disagree with me, fine, so be it. We are all saved, despite what sins one posses's. I am sorry for being harsh, but I do not want to sit by and watch Christian brothers find a reason to not repent from different sins. Now, if you truly believe it's not sinning, ok. I am not out to be right here, because ultimately, even if I apear to be right, it's actually Christ who is right.

And I still refuse to accept something that (as many have mentioned) is not even mentioned in the Bible as ok. It is not directly attacked, but in no way is it supported by the Bible, and many things connected to mast***ation are attacked in the Bible.

Toolman
Jul 21st 2005, 12:35 AM
I'm not going after anyone specifically. It appears that I've ruffled quite a few feathers here, so I have not gone out of my way to talk about anyone specifically.

No feathers ruffled here. This topic has been discussed MANY times on this board and probably will be in the future.


Also, I am saying that not YOU specifically are being lukewarm, but on this topic, being touchy-feely, or politically correct in trying to watch out for peoples feelings on this topic is being lukewarm. I am much happier that you CAME OUT AND SAID IT that you do it without lust. It just frustrates me hearing people say "You can't assume all people do it with lust" while they themselves do not deny it. I would much rather be dealing with someone who avidly backs up the other side, or avidly agrees with me. So far, no one agrees with me, which is scary to me.

Fub, I have presented a very clear presentation from the scriptures for my position on this issue (which is also my position on other areas that are "grey").

I don't have to present my personal life to you to make a biblical stance about an issue. The scripture is the final authority, not what you or I feel or think about a subject. I will place my trust and stance on scripture not on myself or someone else.


Now, about this using of Romans, I am not out to condem anyone.

When you declare that something is a sin that another brother tells you in clear language is not a problem for him then intended or not that is extra-biblical judgement.


I am not trying to say "EW LOOK YOU'RE A DIRTY SINNER!". I am trying to make you guys step a little out of your comfort zones.

The feeling is mutual. It is a comfort zone to blanket something a sin for everone, which scripture does not do. It is much more uncomfortable to actually think through an issue and listen to the experiences of others and their convictions on a matter.


If you disagree with me, fine, so be it. We are all saved, despite what sins one posses's. I am sorry for being harsh, but I do not want to sit by and watch Christian brothers find a reason to not repent from different sins.

I for one appreciate your concern. I think the call should be to repent from lust and leave the Spirit to convict how that works out in someone's life.


Now, if you truly believe it's not sinning, ok. I am not out to be right here, because ultimately, even if I apear to be right, it's actually Christ who is right.

Agreed and ditto.


And I still refuse to accept something that (as many have mentioned) is not even mentioned in the Bible as ok. It is not directly attacked, but in no way is it supported by the Bible, and many things connected to mast***ation are attacked in the Bible.

I think that logic is a bit faulty but that happens. Each person must follow their conviction.

I appreciate your passion here Fub, I just think you would be wise to listen to the experience and insight of others in the Body, especially those of us who have been around a while (a bit long in the tooth :lol:).

Fubajuba
Jul 21st 2005, 04:24 AM
I will place my trust and stance on scripture not on myself or someone else.

I don't see how you can place your trust in scripture yet stand so firmly on this "grey area" that is not mentioned, as you said, in that same scripture.


The feeling is mutual. It is a comfort zone to blanket something a sin for everone, which scripture does not do. It is much more uncomfortable to actually think through an issue and listen to the experiences of others and their convictions on a matter.

I left my comfort zone by actually speaking out about this. It isn't comfortable coming here and talking to complete strangers, bring pretty new to this board, and having to disagree with the entire male population.

I have listened to other's experiences, and I do not base this conviction on mine alone. A few months ago, my youth group had 2 weeks set aside to talk about sex. Broke it up, guys and girls. The guy's only talked about this topic. Everyone was involved (like 30+ guys) in the conversation. A decent portion were Christians, or claimed to be one. They had very different views from me, and I did not simply plug my ears and babble on to block them out.

And I meant in ruffling feathers that I simply was not conforming (not saying anyone here is) in saying what apparently is the consensus here.

I also don't understand how my logic in thinking mast***ation is wrong because it is not supported by the Bible at all, and many things associated with it are out-right sins. You yourself said you rely solely on scripture for your convictions. I don't see how one can be so firm in defending mast***ation (well, at least the type "without lust") because it's not attacked by scripture.

All is permissable, yet all is not beneficial.

whitestone
Jul 21st 2005, 12:20 PM
Hi Fubajuba,

Hope you had a good night.

I will be addressing two of your posts here.

(The first had a specific address to me.)
I'm not going after anyone specifically. It appears that I've ruffled quite a few feathers here, so I have not gone out of my way to talk about anyone specifically. A blanket accusation is still "specifically" addressed to those to whom you are speaking.

In a public forum that would mean, at a minimum, everyone who has posted in this thread.

So, based on the words of your post, it appeared that you were going after(i.e. accusing of sin) everyone(specifically) who posted in this thread if they have ever mast** without lust and not repented of simply performing that behaviour.



You now seem to indicate that is a misunderstanding.

I accept that I misunderstood. Thank you for clarifying.
Now, exactly what is going on in your mind while you do this, whitestone? Please. Call me Eric.
Really, I am completely serious. I know you've said "Give every thought to God", but really, what does this mean in this case? What does it mean in any case? It means not entertaining ungodly thoughts. If I am attacked(so to speak) with ungodly thoughts, I pray for help to take them away. This would be while mast** or any other time, doing any other behaviour. So far, God has always been faithful. I expect He will continue to be.



To carry this to a conclusion you might be able to relate to - -

If you see girls to whom you are attracted and they are wearing "far less than modest" apparel, do ungodly thoughts enter your mind?

If so, what do you do to keep from entertaining those ungodly thoughts?



Another important question perhaps is -

When do thoughts become lust? :confused



Going a bit further - when anyone engages in a behaviour which may bring a level of temptation that the person is uncomfortable dealing with, what are prudent steps? Pray, asking the Lord for help (before & during temptation) is one indispensable step, I believe.
on this topic, being touchy-feely, or politically correct in trying to watch out for peoples feelings on this topic is being lukewarm. I'm not sure that trying to watch out for people's feelings on any topic would mean one was lukewarm.

I understand getting at the truth, but that can be done in a way that we strive not to unnecessarily hurt feelings of others.
I am much happier that you CAME OUT AND SAID IT that you do it without lust. To be more accurate, that would be 'done it', past tense. No one knows the future.
It just frustrates me hearing people say "You can't assume all people do it with lust" while they themselves do not deny it. I would much rather be dealing with someone who avidly backs up the other side, or avidly agrees with me. So far, no one agrees with me, which is scary to me. Your candor is appreciated, but I think that the disagreement is not as clear cut as you seem to think. In this discussion, as I do in many, I have been pointing out the boundaries as opposed to the playing field.

Much of the field we likely do agree upon -- Lust is wrong. Fornication is wrong. Adultery is wrong. Perhaps we should better define these before going further.
if you truly believe it's not sinning, ok. Thank you for your concession that it is a personal matter of conscience as to whether or not it is sin needing repentance.

The Holy Spirit is pretty good at identifying those things for which we have not repented, I think. Much better than you or I can, I'm sure.
many things connected to mast***ation are attacked in the Bible. I would like to delve into what is "connected" to it that IS spoken against in scripture. Perhaps it would be beneficial to identify and define these "connected" things.





Now, addressing the second post (which was not addressed to me)...
I don't see how you can place your trust in scripture yet stand so firmly on this "grey area" that is not mentioned, as you said, in that same scripture. Those things which are not mentioned in scripture still have mentioned principles which can be applied. Scripture does not mention helping blind people to cross a highway safely and yet there are principles which show this can be a good thing. Likewise, there are scriptures which provide principles that indicate that mast** (without lust) to assist an infertile couple in conceiving a child can be a good thing. Clearly, there are many behaviours which can be good or bad based on circumstance and intent of the heart.

Mast** is one of many such behaviours. We have determined that mast** with lust is wrong, so perhaps determining the meaning of lust(an intent of the heart) would help looking at some of the various circumstances.
I left my comfort zone by actually speaking out about this. It isn't comfortable coming here and talking to complete strangers, bring pretty new to this board, and having to disagree with the entire male population. Again, I think there is more agreement that you may perceive. The mast** WITH LUST covers the majority of circumstances in the lives of many, I think.
I also don't understand how my logic in thinking mast***ation is wrong because it is not supported by the Bible at all, and many things associated with it are out-right sins. You again allude to "connected"(i.e., "associated with it") things.

Can you specifically identify these as that might really help the discussion progress? :confused

As for the logic, a similar logic usage is if I were to claim that one billion people do not exist because I have not seen them. In reality, they might not exist, but then again, perhaps some do exist. Disallowing the possibility that some of those people could exist would be the flaw in logic. The similar flaw in the current discussion would be disallowing the possibility that mast** can exist without being sinful.
You yourself said you rely solely on scripture for your convictions. This was not directed at me, but I believe what was meant is that convictions are a matter of conscience and we attempt to shape our convictions to be in line with scripture.
I don't see how one can be so firm in defending mast***ation (well, at least the type "without lust") because it's not attacked by scripture. This goes back to applying biblical principles (which do exist in scripture).





God bless you, my brother, my new friend.

May His light continue to shine in us.

Eric %^)

*hug*

Toolman
Jul 21st 2005, 02:15 PM
I don't see how you can place your trust in scripture yet stand so firmly on this "grey area" that is not mentioned, as you said, in that same scripture.

Let me give you an example that I believe is a similiar parallel.

Let's say I am discussing alcohol instead of m*sturbation. I am having this discussion with another Christian brother.

He says to me that drinking alcohol is a sin. I respond that I disagree I do not believe scripture ever declares the drinking of alcohol a sin but declares that drunkenness and a drunken lifestyle is a sin.

He responds that there are all manner of evils connected with alcohol and therefore Christians should not drink. I respond to him that that is a personal conviction and not a scriptural command/principal for all people.

Do you see my point here and why I say that I stand on scripture regarding this issue. M*sturbation is NOT condemned in scripture anymore than alcohol is. LUST and DRUNKENNESS are. So I cannot call that sin which the scripture does not. That would make my authority and opinion higher than scripture.

Someone m*sturbating to the thought of their spouse is not sinning. Someone m*sturbating with the thoughts of their own body and sexuality are not sinning. So to make the blanket statement that m*sturbation is sin is biblically wrong.


I left my comfort zone by actually speaking out about this. It isn't comfortable coming here and talking to complete strangers, bring pretty new to this board, and having to disagree with the entire male population.

I think you will find that the field is about 50/50 or that perhaps you are even in the majority regarding this issue on this board and within most of evangelical Christianity.

Welcome to the board BTW :D


I have listened to other's experiences, and I do not base this conviction on mine alone. A few months ago, my youth group had 2 weeks set aside to talk about sex. Broke it up, guys and girls. The guy's only talked about this topic. Everyone was involved (like 30+ guys) in the conversation. A decent portion were Christians, or claimed to be one. They had very different views from me, and I did not simply plug my ears and babble on to block them out.

Were any of these guys over the age of 18? Any over the age of 29? How long had they been walking with Christ? These are factors that you may want to consider.

You stated that your youth group had decided that masturbation was a sin, so I am assuming that all these 30+ guys agreed with that conclusion. I'm not sure that presents a balanced discussion but I'm just basing that on what you have disclosed. Please share more if you like.


And I meant in ruffling feathers that I simply was not conforming (not saying anyone here is) in saying what apparently is the consensus here.

I think you might want to reread this whole thread. I would say there is at minimum a healthy mix.

Here are some posts in this thread that agree with your current conclusion:
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=309569&postcount=2
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=309590&postcount=4
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=310076&postcount=8
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=334506&postcount=50
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=376414&postcount=76

Those are just some, don't have time to find them all but make sure you read the whole thread. You also might want to do a search on the board, there are dozens of threads about this subject.


I also don't understand how my logic in thinking mast***ation is wrong because it is not supported by the Bible at all, and many things associated with it are out-right sins. You yourself said you rely solely on scripture for your convictions. I don't see how one can be so firm in defending mast***ation (well, at least the type "without lust") because it's not attacked by scripture.

All is permissable, yet all is not beneficial.

I addressed that at the beginning of this post and I agree with the Stone of White, the big E, Eric :D in that we should pursue what he speaks of. He makes some excellent points and observations and brings out some things that will help move the discussion further down the line:

1) What is lust
2) What are these "things" connected with m*sturbation.

Tube Socks Dude
Jul 21st 2005, 07:54 PM
Someone m*sturbating with the thoughts of their own body and sexuality are not sinning.

I personally believe it is possible to separate eros (Greek for s*xual desire) from s*xual fantasies/acts involving other people. The underlying component of eros creates the foundation for all s*xuality. However, I think eroticism can exist on its own, and can be isolated and controlled. I can experience and recognize erotic feelings, without extending the focus outside myself. When I haven't m*sturbated for a couple of weeks, my body goes on autopilot, and reacts to everyday stimulation including shower water, vibrations from a moving vehicle or nervously shaking my leg, or wearing tight pants or a jockstrap. I develop an urge for release, regardless of a controlled thought life. I'm not really trying to make a case for or against m*sturbation, just pointing out that not every erotic feeling is generated by thinking about women. Many guys claim it's impossible for them to separate eros/desire from an outside source of fantasy. However, speaking from personal experience, I just wanted to agree with Toolman's general statement that some guys can m*sturbate while only focused on their own body, and the component of eros within basic s*xuality.

P.S. I think eros only becomes sinful, when it leads to planning an act prohibited by Scripture. The queston for many is still whether or not m*sturbation is prohibited, even without fantasy.

Maverick

BickBenedict
Jul 21st 2005, 08:18 PM
I personally believe it is possible to separate eros (Greek for s*xual desire) from s*xual fantasies/acts involving other people. The underlying component of eros creates the foundation for all s*xuality. However, I think eroticism can exist on its own, and can be isolated and controlled. I can experience and recognize erotic feelings, without extending the focus outside myself. When I haven't m*sturbated for a couple of weeks, my body goes on autopilot, and reacts to everyday stimulation including shower water, vibrations from a moving vehicle or nervously shaking my leg, or wearing tight pants or a jockstrap. I develop an urge for release, regardless of a controlled thought life. I'm not really trying to make a case for or against m*sturbation, just pointing out that not every erotic feeling is generated by thinking about women. Many guys claim it's impossible for them to separate eros/desire from an outside source of fantasy. However, speaking from personal experience, I just wanted to agree with Toolman's general statement that some guys can m*sturbate while only focused on their own body, and the component of eros within basic s*xuality.

P.S. I think eros only becomes sinful, when it leads to planning an act prohibited by Scripture. The queston for many is still whether or not m*sturbation is prohibited, even without fantasy.

Maverick

It sounds like you're addicted to masturbation....and your body is conditioned to expect it. And if you don't get it, you go through withdrawal.

Eros.....if you're even thinking...just thinking of the sinful act, you're guilty.

IMHO that is.

Toolman
Jul 21st 2005, 09:23 PM
It sounds like you're addicted to masturbation....and your body is conditioned to expect it. And if you don't get it, you go through withdrawal.

Sounds to me like he's a normal, healthy male, who was created as a sexual being not an asexual one.

Men get erections and have sexual feelings by design, not by the fall.

The body has a natural need to release sperm and this will happen either through stimulation of some kind or nocturnal emissions. That is the design.


Eros.....if you're even thinking...just thinking of the sinful act, you're guilty.

IMHO that is.

What sinful act did he say that he was thinking about?
What scripture do you base your claims on?

whitestone
Jul 22nd 2005, 12:24 AM
Hi Toolman!
I addressed that at the beginning of this post and I agree with the Stone of White, the big E, Eric :D in that we should pursue what he speaks of. He makes some excellent points and observations and brings out some things that will help move the discussion further down the line:

1) What is lust
2) What are these "things" connected with m*sturbation. Big E?

Hmmm. Only my long time friends still call me that.

Are you . . . Nah. Couldn't be.

Your point about scripture is valid and that should be our focus, I think.
Seems to be a lot of man's opinion here without scripture to learn about God's opinion.

Blessings! to all.
Your brother in Christ and Christ centered thinking.
*hugs all around* and Good Nite.
Eric %^)

Shine Son. Shine.

Fubajuba
Jul 25th 2005, 12:06 PM
I've given up on this topic really. I talked a lot of this over with a friend and I realized I have no need to feel the slightest guilt or remorse for being harsh on here. You mast*rbate with lust no matter what. Lust does not just cover thinking about women in a lustful way, but you can lust after anything (money, power, acceptance, you get it?). Thinking of "your own sexuality" is just as much lust as thinking of some girl in your mind. That just further demonstrates the selfish nature of the act which is characteristic of ALL SIN. Selfishness comes from sin while Selfless-ness comes from righteousness. Your body (and you know the part of the body I am speaking of) was designed to do 2 things. 1.) Dispose of wastes and 2.) S*xual intercourse with your wife. Lack of a wife means lack of a second use. You cannot use the "prostate health" approach because you can eat a tomato if you're concerned about prostate health. Probably does more for you because you'd get rid of your s*men after a period of time even without mast*rbating.

Mast*rbation is sin down to the core of it. It is all about self-gratification. Even if the thought of a woman doesn't enter your mind, you are doing it alone. You are doing it to feel good. You are doing it for YOU. S*x is supposed to be a selfless act between a man and wife. You are supposed to try and make your wife feel as good as you can make her, while she tries to do the same to you. You are NOT to use your s*xuality for your own devices and to strive to make yourself feel better.

I am not condeming you if you have a problem with this topic, because almost all men have a problem with this, I am included. I am condeming the act. If you are saying you can do it without lusting, I *AM* calling you a liar. You may very well be thinking of everything but a girl, but that is another form of lust, being so focused on something, so focused on yourself that you can get s*xual gratification from it.

The act does not bring glory to God. That simple fact can make a number of actions sinful. Eating, working, talking, crying, and even breathing can all become sinful in nature when they do not bring glory to God. There is no way perverting our God given s*xuality by mast*rbating while lusting after women or anything else brings, brings glory to God.

If you are not doing it because of problems with lust, and you are not doing it for health (which is a completely invalid point since your body is made to protect itself and there are a million things to do for prostate health and s*xual health, this is the cheapest and easiest way though), and if you're not doing it to feel good, WHY ARE YOU DOING IT? Seriously question your motives behind doing this, even if you don't think it's sin.

Fubajuba
Jul 25th 2005, 12:08 PM
And God's opinion on something like this is "Everything is permissable, but everything is not beneficial". You may be forgiven for such an act, but it most certainly will not help you.

*edit* And if you're really looking for scriptural back up for being against this, the Bible say's for us to exile the S*xually immoral. No specific verses at the moment, on my way out the door to work. Maybe later.

whitestone
Jul 25th 2005, 01:10 PM
Hi Fubajuba,

Hope you had a good weekend and that your week ahead is blessed.
I've given up on this topic really. Given up looking for sound biblical reasoning for your belief
or just given up explaining your belief without sound biblical reasoning?
Please don't give up as fast as "YOU WOULD LIKE". (self gratification?)
The Lord say to weary not in well doing. (Galatians 6:9, II Thessalonians 3:13)
I talked a lot of this over with a friend and I realized I have no need to feel the slightest guilt or remorse for being harsh on here. Did you also talk it over with Jesus Christ?
Did you study it in the scriptures? Rightly dividing? Precept upon precept?
You mast*rbate with lust no matter what. An unfounded (thus, disrespectful) accusation. Only God can see the heart. Lust, if present, is always is in the heart.
Lust does not just cover thinking about women in a lustful way, but you can lust after anything (money, power, acceptance, you get it?). Yes, I get it. Can lust cover wanting to be right about your beliefs even without biblical reasoning?
I suppose that would fall under acceptance maybe, or maybe power.
Selfishness comes from sin No, selfishness does not come FROM sin. Selfishness comes from the heart of man.
Your body (and you know the part of the body I am speaking of) was designed to do 2 things. 1.) Dispose of wastes and 2.) S*xual intercourse with your wife. How about some scripture that supports your presupposition?
Mast*rbation is sin down to the core of it. This is simply incorrect.
Change "is" to "can be" and it would be correct. That is --
Mast*rbation CAN BE sin.
It is all about self-gratification.
Again, change "is" to "can be" and you would be correct.
But let's look at "self-gratification".
Is having fun in order to laugh all about self-gratification? And is that ALWAYS sin? [QUOTE=Fubajuba] I am condeming the act. Wouldn't be nice to show that God condemns it, rather than that YOU condemn it?
PS: You are also condemning those who do not condemn "the act". Isn't that wrong without also giving a scriptural explanation whan asked sincerely as you have been asked here (many more times than once)?
If you are saying you can do it without lusting, I *AM* calling you a liar. Since I have said that, then you are calling me a liar.
That is very disrespectful and I would ask that you back that claim up with biblical reasoning, else apologize.
That is what a friend who knows Jesus would do, I think.
The act does not bring glory to God. Does enabling a childless couple to have a child that they can bring up to the best of their God given ability bring glory to God?
That simple fact can make a number of actions sinful. Eating, working, talking, crying, and even breathing can all become sinful in nature when they do not bring glory to God. Do you advocate that I should stop eating and breathing? hehe
Care to explain, from scripture, how those "actions" become sin, rather that sin being in the heart?
Seriously question your motives behind doing this, even if you don't think it's sin. Why would one need to question the motives behind it if the "act" itself is sin?
If the "act" itself is a sin, motives become a separate issue.

Can you show from scripture that the "act itself" is sin?
That might be a blessing to many if you did.

Meanwhile, apology awaited. *smile*


Blessings! to you.
Eric %^)


Lord, bless my brother in knowledge and understanding.
Be with his heart Lord that condemns others.
Bring peace and joy to his life in the knowledge of You and Your truth.

whitestone
Jul 25th 2005, 01:12 PM
Hi again Fubajuba,
the Bible say's for us to exile the S*xually immoralAnd does the Bible also identify who is s*xually immoral?
Thus far you seem to lack in explanation on that topic.

Love in Truth, who is Christ,
Eric %^)
*hug*

EDIT TO ADD:


"Everything is permissable, but everything is not beneficial". Care to explain how helping a childless couple to conceive is not beneficial?

Tube Socks Dude
Jul 25th 2005, 03:52 PM
You are doing it to feel good.

and if you're not doing it to feel good, WHY ARE YOU DOING IT?

That's what this discussion is really all about; the belief that if something feels good, it must be sinful. I see Scripture plainly stating that excess equals sin. Others are conditioned to think the Bible says pleasure equals sin. Nowhere does it literally or specifically say that all pleasure outside of marriage is sinful. That is an invention of Aquinas and Augustine. You have to rely on extra-biblical interpretation to arrive at the conclusion that m*sturbation is sinful, just because it is self-pleasure. Scripture says a lot about not giving your body to somebone besides your spouse, but that is as far as the prohibition goes. To push beyond that, you have to end up using philosophical reasoning to color the meaning of Scripture and fill in the gray areas. Where does it say that m*sturbation is selfish? True, it could become selfish, but labeling all m*sturbation as selfishness is a common dart thrown by preachers/clergy to produce guilt.

I do not wish to cause anyone with a weak conscience to stumble, so I edited out the paragraph that was previously here.

Maverick

Fubajuba
Jul 25th 2005, 04:07 PM
Some of the quotes aren't even direct quotes from me.

I am calling you a liar in that you posed that question that way. I never would have said "You're a liar" unless you said "So you're calling all those who say...... a liar?" You may very well be able to do it without thinking of a girl, but you are most definitely lusting after everything.

How, beg you, am I lusting by opposing mast*rbation? How is THAT a lust for acceptance? I don't care if I am accepted here or not.

I have been accused of merely attacking it without being Biblically sound. How can you be Biblicly sound in defending it? How? If you're looking to be Biblically sound about something, it would have to be in the Bible. It is not spoken out against, but Lust is a sin. Selfish-ness goes against EVERYTHING Christ has taught us. God has demonstrated selflessness and does it EVERYDAY, and we are called to live like Christ, therefor, be selfless. Also, we are demanded to be repentant. I've been criticized for not having evidence against it, then show me evidence for it. You cannot possibly support a topic so firmly that is not in the Bible, if you do, you are playing a risky game. I am not the one who should be uneasy about where I stand. Avoiding mast*rbation is a whole lot more "Biblically sound" than trying to do it without lusting, and splitting hairs with fellow Christians over what's right and what's wrong. Human disgression is used a whole lot more when you defend your mast*rbation than when I attack it.

The sexually immoral include Adulterers, Rapists, and any other person taking part in the perversion of God's creation known as s*x.


Does enabling a childless couple to have a child that they can bring up to the best of their God given ability bring glory to God? .

Who are we to decide if they should have a child or not? Obviously if God wanted them to have children, they would be able to. If they are having problems having Children, God's will is being done. We should not mettle in God's affairs. This whole situation is not something that should argued with me about since I have a problem where I may not be able to have children when I am older. This situation, at least, I should know about.

I am sorry for being harsh. All of this is out of love. I have no personal problems with anyone on this board. I will pray for all of you, and I will get my small group to pray also.

Steve M
Jul 25th 2005, 04:43 PM
I just skimmed through the last ten posts and saw an awful dearth of scriptures quoted on both sides of the debate.

Why do you suppose that is?

whitestone
Jul 25th 2005, 06:33 PM
Hi Steve M,
I just skimmed through the last ten posts and saw an awful dearth of scriptures quoted on both sides of the debate.

Why do you suppose that is? Because to love your neighbor is presumed to be an obvious scripture?

One may show Love to a childless couple(neighbors)
by helping them to conceive a child.

I don't think anyone here really needs the book/chapter reference for this.

Blessings!
Eric %^)
*hug*

Steve M
Jul 25th 2005, 07:02 PM
Hi Steve M, Because to love your neighbor is presumed to be an obvious scripture?

One may show Love to a childless couple(neighbors)
by helping them to conceive a child.

I don't think anyone here really needs the book/chapter reference for this.

Blessings!
Eric %^)
*hug*
Hmm. Would you say that is what's really being discussed here or an ancillary discussion? Or are you suggesting that we should only mast@bate if we intend to sell the sperm? (yes, I said sell...this gets into yet another ancillary discussion)

Pax_Vobiscum
Jul 25th 2005, 10:35 PM
Forgive me if I'm repeating what's already been said here, but I thought I'd chime in. Masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action. The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose. For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.

Try not to be too scandalized--it's from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I think, though, it's one of the many points of agreement (most) of us have. Sex is good and holy--in it's proper context. The Church has always taught that it was gravely disordered.

But, admittedly, it's a toughie. In this sex-saturated society, it's considered perfectly normal--even healthy. And the only way I've ever found to combat that particular temptation, (like all others, really) is prayer, prayer, and oh yes--more prayer.

(It also helps to have a cross or crucifix right smack in front of wherever you feel most tempted to that sin).

whitestone
Jul 25th 2005, 11:32 PM
Hi Steve M,
Hmm. Would you say that is what's really being discussed here or an ancillary discussion? Or are you suggesting that we should only mast@bate if we intend to sell the sperm? (yes, I said sell...this gets into yet another ancillary discussion) The topic of discussion is Mast**

I think the main focus of mast**, mast** WITH LUST, seems to be unanimously consented to as sin.

But, it has also been proposed(rather harshly) that ALL mast** is ALWAYS sin.

I have been attempting to define the boundaries which shows otherwise.


As for your other remarks/questions --
I am not suggesting that we should only mast** if we intend to sell the sperm.
Nor do I understand how that conclusion could be drawn from what I have said.
As for the selling of sperm, even if that is the heart motive for the act,
it has no bearing upon the act itself of mast** being sin.
If I were to help little old ladies who needed help to down my sidewalk safely
with the only heart motive being that I would not get sued,
the sin is not the act of my helping the ladies.

Love in Him, who id Truth.
Your brother, Eric %^)
*hug*

C3BO
Jul 26th 2005, 01:19 AM
Ok, so for people who haven't reached a state where they can cease to produce s3xaully-oriented fluids for long periods of time, (me) which is less sinfull - to MB as little as possible, without any p*&n images or fantasy, and get it out of the way so you can think about something else, or wait, and have dreams that are far more lustfull (and messy) than MB?

Seriously, I'm not being facetious.


Waiting also makes one easily distracted - not only by lustfull thoughts, but by all thoughts. That's my experience.

Pax_Vobiscum
Jul 26th 2005, 01:21 AM
Still, merely mechanically releasing fluids to "release pressure" is a disordered act. Just as what happens between to homosexual men, MB is not the end to which God intended the sexual organs to be used...

C3BO
Jul 26th 2005, 01:43 AM
Even if I have totally inappropriate dreams, and am constantly fighting with lustful thoughts? Should I really pluck out my eyes? It may sound like a false dilema, but what do people do while they are trying to reach the state where they don't have sexual urges? I'm not looking for approval. Eveyone can tell me what's wrong, but what's right? Are the dreams not wrong? Constant irritability and distraction? What about having sex flash across your mind in church? I'd rather MB on Saturday, and hear God in church, rather than skip it for 6 months, and go completely mad at church.

Pax_Vobiscum
Jul 26th 2005, 01:47 AM
Even if I have totally inappropriate dreams, and am constantly fighting with lustful thoughts? Should I really pluck out my eyes? It may sound like a false dilema, but what do people do while they are trying to reach the state where they don't have sexual urges? I'm not looking for approval. Eveyone can tell me what's wrong, but what's right? Are the dreams not wrong? Constant irritability and distraction? What about having sex flash across your mind in church? I'd rather MB on Saturday, and hear God in church, rather than skip it for 6 months, and go completely mad at church.

The difference is whether you willfully entertain the thoughts. If you consent to the thoughts--by that I mean recognize they're happening and then continue with them--that's sin. Merely having the thoughts flash across your mind doesn't make you culpable. It's when you CHOOSE to lust in your heart that it's sinful.

The struggle never ends. The effects of the Fall will always be with us, although we have the means--Christ--to overcome them. Being tormented by such thoughts is the cross that many of us must simply bear prayerfully.

C3BO
Jul 26th 2005, 02:07 AM
That's how I deal with the waking thoughts - push them away. It's the ones I have while asleep that I indulge in. I have been so immersed in the walk lately, that it's been turning up in my dreams (the walk) - perhaps one day it will fill them.

Pax_Vobiscum
Jul 26th 2005, 02:11 AM
That's how I deal with the waking thoughts - push them away. It's the ones I have while asleep that I indulge in. I have been so immersed in the walk lately, that it's been turning up in my dreams (the walk) - perhaps one day it will fill them.

Hmm...I never remember my dreams. When I do, they're usually about spaceships and war, so I don't know what to do about that. I guess give thanks that they're not about other things. ;)

But I don't think you're truly "indulging" if they happen in an unconscious state. If you wake up immediately after such a dream and continue it in a wakeful state, that's a different story.

Just remember, God knows what's on your heart. You can't fool him--even when you're trying to fool yourself. I don't say that as a spiritual guru, I say it from experience. Looking back on my experience in this area, it'd be funny if not so terrifying. I may have fooled myself in these matters for a little while, but I never fooled God.

Fubajuba
Jul 26th 2005, 05:39 AM
In response to the whole issue of not mast*rbating making it harder to not lust... That is, I am sorry, a ridiculous point. It is of your own wrong doing that you lust in the first place. It has nothing to do with not "getting rid of the fluids". It has EVERYTHING to do with what you put in front of your eyes. You should not mast*bate to get rid of sin, you should pray. You should be willing to "cut off your arm", in what ever respect it may be in the situation. NO ONE said not sinning would be easy. To be blunt, if you struggle with it to the point where you go crazy when you don't, you need to seriously work on it. I do also. It is an addiction just as much as alcoholism, except this addiction's consequences are not immediately noticable. So yes, you should be willing to pluck out your eye, because it is a valid point Jesus made both figuratively and literally. Now, I'd pluck my eye out as a last resort, but you need to be THAT serious with God. He does not play games, nor should he.

C3BO
Jul 26th 2005, 05:51 AM
What is it I'm placing before my eyes in my sleep? I'm watching Christian movies and reading the bible while awake. Again, my very simple, (and not ridiculous by any means) question is: What is less sinfull - mb without any imagry or fantasy, or having graphic and lustfull dreams? I don't think you read all of my posts. No one has answered my question, though everyone seems to think their answer is completely obvious. Yes, the problems while awake are those I'm working on, as I said... and I am succeeding. As I said, the sleep is improving in that my Christian beliefs are manifesting in dreams at points, but there is still s3x at other points.

Question :What is less sinfull - mb without any imagry or fantasy, or having graphic and lustfull dreams?

There is no answer, is there?

C3BO
Jul 26th 2005, 05:54 AM
It's no wonder so many teenagers hate themselves.

Scruffy Kid
Jul 26th 2005, 07:54 AM
It's all about love

C3BO says that because of the inability to control sexual thoughts and desires,
It's no wonder so many teenagers hate themselves.This is one central point in the discussion of mb which needs more explicit attention than it's got, IMO.

Realistic Background

Most guys don't have very good control of their sexual impulses and desires. For many this results in many lustful thoughts, including in situations which are obviously inappropriate. Guys have sometime sexual thoughts toward family members, for instance, even if these are disguised in form. Guys who are married have attractions which are explicit to people other than their spouse. Many guys get addicted to porn. And most find it almost impossible to refrain from mb-ing. All this is generally a bit tougher in the teens and twenties, but it often remains a problem. All this is, I think, the context of the topic this thread deals with.

As regards arguments about the sinfulness of mb-n there's two ways to take the argument. One is that since it's not explicitly mentioned in Scripture, and since virtually all guys wrestle with this problem, it's OK. This point of view sometimes sets limits -- "without lust", "not to excess", etc. -- on mb-n, and on the degree of sexual attraction and involvement generally. (However, many, probably most, think that they are regularly unsuccessful anyhow. Lots of married guys, say, feel degrees or types of attraction to other women, and degrees of indulging that which -- though short of adultery or even flirting -- they think, and which their wives if they know about it definitely think, is beyond what's right.) Another way to take the points above is to say that sexual desire and gratification is meant for marriage only, and anything else is out of bounds. On this view, that mb-n's not explicitly mentioned in Scripture can be taken as part of Scripture's failure to enumerate any alternative to marital sexual fulfillment.

Guilt and Shame

Sexual wrongdoing is driven (in part) by very pleasurable self-gratification, but it involves a lot of pain. Specifically, it leads to lots of guilt and (perhaps more painful yet) shame. Evidently, one of the big motivators of the argument that mb-n is OK (if not done with lust) is that people want to escape from the guilt and shame. And it's this concern that C3BO forcefully raises.

The (contemporary) political theorist Harvey Mansfield -- not himself a Christian (at that time, at least) -- stated that the condition of the male sexual instinct is something to be ashamed of. That's, IMO, what has to be faced up to. Not that women and girls are free of problems in this area; but guys generally find the specifically sexual pressures greater, more frequent, and more inexorable, and more guys experience complete self-control in this area as completely or almost completely impossible.

This, frankly, is the thing I just don't get about the pro-mb-n arguments on the board: they don't seem to recognize the depth of the problem of being enslaved, however you deal with that. It's as if, with the world, they want to say: no problem with male sexual tendencies; at least no problem for me, with a bit of discipline and prayer, and some well-defined areas where self-indulgence is permitted. What may sometimes drive this position -- certainly some here who've advocated it have said as much -- is the desire to get out of a morass of guilt and shame.

That's understandable. As Every Young Man's Battle puts it: "we're very much anti-mb-n, but also very much anti-shame." They mean, as I read them, they don't think it's a great thing to mb, but they also don't think it helps to re-inforce the shame and guilt lots of guys, esp. Christian guys, feel over this, but rather want to bank that guilt and shame down.

(BTW, the experience of intense guilt or shame over mb is very common, among guys who've never been told it's wrong, and among guys who've received our society's persistent propaganda that it's perfectly good, or even desirable. I find this inexplicable on the "mb-n is perfectly OK" theory.)

How do we handle this?
(I mean: deal with the guilt and shame, and our lack of self-control.
This is not a section helping pro-mb-n posters experiencing technical difficulties)

C3BO's cri de coeur (cry of the heart) is admirable, and expresses clearly that there's a problem not covered by saying "refrain" or "go ahead": no matter what we do, no matter how successful we might be at overcoming a habit we don't like, or even controlling our dreams, many guys have a problem of out-of-control impulses.

If we find ourselves doing stuff, consciously or unconsciously, that we disapprove of, how do we not hate or despise ourselves? This, I think, is the core of the problem.

IMO, the messed-up state of our sexual constitution is symptomatic: symptomatic of the messed-up state of our whole being. If some guy, but a special grace or dispensation given him, had no problems in this area, the basic problems of guilt and shame do not go away. (Thomas Acquinas in his teens allegedly asked God earnestly to be set free of lustful desire, and had the request completely granted for life; Augustine, in his Christian, celebate period -- having given up his mistress -- found himself troubled by dreams like those C3BO mentions (though, being older, without the mess, as far as we know). But both considered fundamental sinfulness as part of the human condition, and their own condition.) If we don't have difficulties or mess-up in the area of sexual desire, we have equally bad problems, or worse, in areas of selfishness, laziness, overeating, desire for money and possessions, self-righteousness, anger, slackness in prayer, lack of compassion for the poor, and a zillion other things. These, however, are often easier to ignore: we can trick ourselves into thinking we're living godly lives (when we're not) much easier.

This may well be one reason why God lets guys -- including godly guys, serious Christian guys trying really hard -- experience how messed up we are through our lack of godliness and self-control in the area of sex. (I refer here to "lack of godliness and self-control" as regards sex even where the outward rules -- no fornication or pre-marital deep involvement, no porn, no ogling, no serious mental disloyalty in marriage -- are kept.) We're generally not less unfaithful in the whole of our lives, and in other areas, but it's much less obvious, and bothers us a whole lot less.

It's all about love

The remedy for our guilt and shame lies in Christ. In my opinion, we should struggle hard against our sins -- with a sense of proportion, though, and not in despair. But we fail, big-time. The solution to our failures lies in knowning the love and power of God. And indeed, not just in God's pardon for our mistakes, but in His warm and personal, active and helping love for us, as we are, enabling us to grow more as his kids, despite our repeated mistakes.

Imagine God as our Father, or Jesus as our physical brother. We mess up -- we mb, or we have a voluptuous wet-dream like C3BO describes -- and we go to our Dad, or to our wonderful and loving older Brother, in dismay. How will we get treated? Without my Dad condoning or taking lightly my mistakes, without my Lord Jesus taking lightly my mistakes, I think we'd be met with kindness, love, understanding that this is how sinful human beings are, maybe some humor. Actually, it doesn't matter too much if somehow we get a special gift (like Tom Aquinas) of being able not to mess up in the area of sex. We gotta go to Dad, to Jesus, seventy-times a day anyhow about other stuff where we messed up.

So the root concern here is a relationship to God where we keep trying, keep messing-up, often non-trivially, and learn to press more boldly into honesty and into His love and acceptance for us.

The struggle with sex, in which we keep failing, is also a basis for a different relationship with our often-irritating fellow human beings. I keep messing up in the area of sex, and I gotta learn not to hate myself, but to find joy -- incredible joy -- in the steadfastness and genuine depth of God's love for me, a sinner. Not just any sinner. God doesn't just love Scruff (and C3B0, and Fuba, and Whitestone) generically: he knows and loves me specifically and with depth of His heart (despite all the messed-up stuff he knows is going on in me).

This should change my whole attitude to others, because it changes my whole awareness of myself, and of God's great love for us sinners. They too are messing up, but not just in sexual thoughts, but by bugging me, acting mean, etc. But now I can see that just as I have a problem with sex they have problems with acting mean to others. I can start to love myself because God keeps loving me, and also as part of that start to love even kind of unlovely other people.

It's so hard for me to get it.
I really am a sinner.
Yet God love me. Really loves me!!

Scruffy Kid
Jul 26th 2005, 08:02 AM
My fundamental identity as a sinner saved by grace:
I'm a scruffy kid.

..........Lord, here am I, your scruffy kid,
..........I do not do the things I should.
..........I do a lot I should not do.
..........Yet, Lord, I am in love with you.

.........."I love you Lord" -- but is love true
..........That runs, and hides, and disobeys you?
..........This is true -- "You made me for Your love" -- though.
..........So help me!
.............................I love you!
.................................................. ....Your boy,
.................................................. ....Scruffo

Pax_Vobiscum
Jul 26th 2005, 11:21 AM
What is it I'm placing before my eyes in my sleep? I'm watching Christian movies and reading the bible while awake. Again, my very simple, (and not ridiculous by any means) question is: What is less sinfull - mb without any imagry or fantasy, or having graphic and lustfull dreams? I don't think you read all of my posts. No one has answered my question, though everyone seems to think their answer is completely obvious. Yes, the problems while awake are those I'm working on, as I said... and I am succeeding. As I said, the sleep is improving in that my Christian beliefs are manifesting in dreams at points, but there is still s3x at other points.

Question :What is less sinfull - mb without any imagry or fantasy, or having graphic and lustfull dreams?

There is no answer, is there?

Actually, the answer to that is easy. Graphic and lustful dreams aren't sinful. Masturbation--the deliberate stimulation of the genitals out of the marital context--is.

Are you beating yourself up about bad dreams? Do you feel guilty for having them? Dont.

Toolman
Jul 26th 2005, 02:40 PM
In response to the whole issue of not mast*rbating making it harder to not lust... That is, I am sorry, a ridiculous point. It is of your own wrong doing that you lust in the first place. It has nothing to do with not "getting rid of the fluids". It has EVERYTHING to do with what you put in front of your eyes. You should not mast*bate to get rid of sin, you should pray. You should be willing to "cut off your arm", in what ever respect it may be in the situation. NO ONE said not sinning would be easy. To be blunt, if you struggle with it to the point where you go crazy when you don't, you need to seriously work on it. I do also. It is an addiction just as much as alcoholism, except this addiction's consequences are not immediately noticable. So yes, you should be willing to pluck out your eye, because it is a valid point Jesus made both figuratively and literally. Now, I'd pluck my eye out as a last resort, but you need to be THAT serious with God. He does not play games, nor should he.

Sin is overcome through the cross of Christ, not through the literal cutting off of a limb or poking your own eyes out.

Jesus was using hyperbole not being literal when He spoke of that issue.

2nd century theologian Origen took those passages literally and castrated himself. He was sorely disappointed to learn that even without his genitals his mind still had sexual thoughts and desires.

I think it somewhat questionable that you here admit that you are addicted to masturbation and lust and yet you are here advising others to pluck out eyes and cut off limbs.

Toolman
Jul 26th 2005, 02:43 PM
Masturbation--the deliberate stimulation of the genitals out of the marital context--is.

That is opinion and is never stated as such, not even once, in the scripture.

And it is Sola Scriptura that must guide us in knowing what is and is not sin, not man's opinion. Same mistake has been made historically beginning with Eve, the pharisees, the RCC and many protestant denominations, the adding on to God's word.

Pax_Vobiscum
Jul 26th 2005, 02:55 PM
That is opinion and is never stated as such, not even once, in the scripture.

And it is Sola Scriptura that must guide us in knowing what is and is not sin, not man's opinion. Same mistake has been made historically beginning with Eve, the pharisees, the RCC and many protestant denominations, the adding on to God's word.

So...we aren't allowed to take moral principles in the Bible and apply them to situations not specifically addressed in scripture? We aren't allowed to think outside of the precise, exact words of scripture? We are to have no opinion about such things as stem cell research, cloning and even abortion because scripture doesn't have exacting language dealing with these things?

Tell me--is deliberately stimulating the genitals outside the marital act a holy and enobling act? Is it the proper use of the temple of the Holy Spirit?

(And btw, sola scriptura is itself an addition to scripture.)

Toolman
Jul 26th 2005, 03:13 PM
So...we aren't allowed to take moral principles in the Bible and apply them to situations not specifically addressed in scripture? We aren't allowed to think outside of the precise, exact words of scripture?

You can have your convictions and are allowed to think whatever you wish but you cannot force those upon another just because it is your opinion.
You state that masturbation is a sin, scripture does not. I'll stick with the scripture.
When your opinion adds to or contradicts God's word and declares something with authority then it must be questioned.


We are to have no opinion about such things as stem cell research, cloning and even abortion because scripture doesn't have exacting language dealing with these things?

As I state you can have your opinion in all things, that doesn't mean that your opinion lines up with scripture.

Abortion has already been discussed in this thread. Shooting someone with a gun was not spoken of in scripture but murder was. Murder is prohibited in scripture, lust is prohibited in scripture, masturbation is not.


Tell me--is deliberately stimulating the genitals outside the marital act a holy and enobling act? Is it the proper use of the temple of the Holy Spirit?

A human being is a sexual being so being sexual is part of the temple (body).
If sexuality was not part of the design then God would not have created sexual beings, men would not get er*ctions or have nocturnal emissions.

God, in His wisdom, created humans as sexual. There is no condemnation in that.


(And btw, sola scriptura is itself an addition to scripture.)

2 Timothy 3:16 - All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

But that is another discussion :)

Pax_Vobiscum
Jul 26th 2005, 03:22 PM
How am I forcing my opinion on you? Since this will likely be my last post in this free-speech-free zone, I'll just say this--like other things not explicitly stated in the Bible such as shooting someone with a gun, the prohibition against masturbation is there all over scripture in principle. If you want to pretend God has no opinion on the improper use of sexuality, and in fact think he somehow blesses it, knock yourself out. It's the natural fruit of sola scriptura to do so, so I'll pray you one day free yourself from that man-made tradition. Looking for scriptural backing for carnal indulgence is just repellant.

You're right, 2 Tim 3:16 is definitely a conversation for another time and definitely for another place--preferably one where uncomfortable contrary arguments are tolerated. ** Sorry not allowed **is just such a place, and I guarantee there's more breathing room there than here.

1 Tim 3:15 is also another argument for another time and place. Hope to see you around. My handle is Montanaman over there.

Bye all.

Toolman
Jul 26th 2005, 03:32 PM
How am I forcing my opinion on you?

By declaring something a sin which scripture does not, you place yourself and your opinion above scripture.


Since this will likely be my last post in this free-speech-free zone, I'll just say this--like other things not explicitly stated in the Bible such as shooting someone with a gun, the prohibition against masturbation is there all over scripture in principle.

I disagree. The prohibition against lust is within scripture but there is no prohibition against er*ctions, nocturnal emissions or m*sturbation.


If you want to pretend God has no opinion on the improper use of sexuality, and in fact think he somehow blesses it, knock yourself out. It's the natural fruit of sola scriptura to do so, so I'll pray you one day free yourself from that man-made tradition. Looking for scriptural backing for carnal indulgence is just repellant.

Tis your opinion but alas does not line up with God's inspired word.

Fubajuba
Jul 26th 2005, 07:15 PM
C3BO, what is more sinfull, murder, or theft? Lying, or adultery? God does not care. You looking at a girl lustfully is just as bad as killing her. The same punishment fits both crimes. Now, about this teenagers hating themselves. If they hate themselves for sin, Good. There is NOTHING good in you. There is NOTHING good in me. There is NOT A SINGLE THING that is good in ANY human being on this Earth. Christ was the ONLY good in this world. He was the ONLY good human being because he was God at the same time. So yes, I do hate myself. I HATE that I have problems with lust and all this stuff we talk about. I HATE it. But, I LOVE Christ. That is how we are supposed to think.

And also, about the dreams.... It is not as simple as what is in front of your eyes at that moment. Have you looked at p*rnography ever in your life? If you have, then that little bit, even if it was only once, has poinsoned the well known as your mind. Looking at a girl in a wrong way, even ONCE, has poisoned that well. Now, it up to God to purify the water that comes out of the well, but forever... that well is poisoned. You are responsible for your dreams. You cannot control them, but no one else put that stuff in your head.... Unless God is making a revelation to you by some strange thing... Then you're bordering on blasphemy. And really, sinning is sinning no matter what. You having all those thoughts in your mind because you didnt mast*rbate and it being much harder than it would be if you just got it over with is worse in that you willfully give into it and completely surrender. Now, when you have those thoughts going in your head because you haven't, what you need to do is begin to rely on God to get rid of them, not mast*rbation. It is an addiction.

Fubajuba
Jul 26th 2005, 07:20 PM
I think it somewhat questionable that you here admit that you are addicted to masturbation and lust and yet you are here advising others to pluck out eyes and cut off limbs.
:rofl: :rofl: That is hilarious. I cannot believe how deluded you are. I am coming out and saying it. I NEVER ONCE said I did not struggle with it. I came out and said it was sin. You criticized me for saying so. I said people they should have that kind of conviction to overcome faith. You are completely ignoring the fact that I said it was a valid point both literally and figuratively. I am sorely dissappointed in personal stabs like that.

Fubajuba
Jul 26th 2005, 07:25 PM
Tis your opinion but alas does not line up with God's inspired word.

Nor does your opinion in that it is not sin.

Again, there is a hole in the argument a good portion of those defending the act's morality. Abortion is not ONCE mentioned in the Bible, yet is EASILY seen as murder, therefor, sin. Yet masturbation, also never mentioned, is made a "gray area" because it is a major problem for Christians and Non-Christians alike. An abortion is much easier to speak out agaisnt and think is wrong when you have never had to deal with it. Masturbation, however, is a much more touchy subject because almost every male has a problem with it.

Toolman
Jul 26th 2005, 07:49 PM
:rofl: :rofl: That is hilarious. I cannot believe how deluded you are.

In what way am I deluded?


I am coming out and saying it. I NEVER ONCE said I did not struggle with it. I came out and said it was sin.

Right. And I agree for YOU that it is sin because you are admitting to lusting after women when doing so. But what you don't realize is that it is not the act itself but the lust in your own heart that is sinful.

But you will not allow for others, brothers in Christ, who have told you they can do the act without lusting. That is what I criticize (not your personally or your personal conviction but your condemnation of others who are different from you).


You criticized me for saying so. I said people they should have that kind of conviction to overcome faith.

I agree people should have a deep conviction about sin. Where we disagree is that all should be convicted in an area that is not sinful for all.
Some men can drink alcohol with no problem at all. Others cannot, for them it is sinful. Same principle here.


You are completely ignoring the fact that I said it was a valid point both literally and figuratively.

I do not believe that Jesus ever meant that we are to literally cut off limbs or pluck out our eyes. It was completely figurative and not literal.


I am sorely dissappointed in personal stabs like that.

Sorry if it seemed personal. It wasn't meant to be.

Toolman
Jul 26th 2005, 07:57 PM
Nor does your opinion in that it is not sin.

Since God's law and word is what defines sin, if His word doesn't address it then it can never be labeled sin scripturally. That is the point.

It isn't my opinion. God's word speaks as loud about what it doesn't condemn as to what it does.


Again, there is a hole in the argument a good portion of those defending the act's morality. Abortion is not ONCE mentioned in the Bible, yet is EASILY seen as murder, therefor, sin. Yet masturbation, also never mentioned, is made a "gray area" because it is a major problem for Christians and Non-Christians alike. An abortion is much easier to speak out agaisnt and think is wrong when you have never had to deal with it. Masturbation, however, is a much more touchy subject because almost every male has a problem with it.

That is inaccurate. You are comparing apples and oranges and setting up a straw man argument.

All murder of the innocent is condemned in scripture. God doesn't have to describe every instance of how murder can occur to condemn it, otherwise He would have had to list millions of ways that people can be killed.

Lust is also condemned in scripture. God doesn't have to define every way that lust can occur to condemn it.

Drunkenness is also condemned in scripture.

Now m*sturbation and alcohol are not ONCE condemned in scripture. Now if during m*sturbation you lust then the lust is the sin, not the m*sturbation.
If during drinking alcohol you allow your self to become drunk, then it is the drunkenness that is the sin not the alcohol.

Fubajuba
Jul 26th 2005, 08:00 PM
In what way am I deluded?

In many ways than one. First off, you tried to make it out like I was being hypocritical where I was in no way. Second, you are twisting my words around and completely ignoring half the things I say. *edit* also, by you using such points as "It's not condemned in the Bible" and "I live by the word". You criticize me for saying it is sin because the Bible doesn't say it is, but the Bible also never say's it ISN'T sin.

Christianity is not a pick-and-choose type deal. You cannot simply say "Well that's your opinion" about things like this.



Right. And I agree for YOU that it is sin because you are admitting to lusting after women when doing so. But what you don't realize is that it is not the act itself but the lust in your own heart that is sinful.

Wrong. For YOU it is a sin too. The act itself IS a sin. Give me evidence that it is NOT sin and you will have a valid point.

Why do you masturbate, if it is not out of lust? I am curious. Is it for health? You can take care of your prostate in a million different ways, masturbation is only one of them and it is the easiest to do. Do you do it to feel good? That in itself is a sin because you are using your sexuality to please yourself. You are to have sex to make your wife feel good, and her do the same, other wise, don't do it at all.

But you will not allow for others, brothers in Christ, who have told you they can do the act without lusting. That is what I criticize (not your personally or your personal conviction but your condemnation of others).





I agree people should have a deep conviction about sin. Where we disagree is that all should be convicted in an area that is not sinful for all.
Some men can drink alcohol with no problem at all. Others cannot, for them it is sinful. Same principle here.


This is no where close to the same thing. Jesus himself made water turn to wine. Obviously alcohol is not a sin if Christ himself made it. Now, drunkeness is the sin here, and some people struggle with it, others don't. There isn't a fine line where being drunk for some people isn't a sin for other people. No, that point is entirely irrelevant, if you're trying to make that.



I do not believe that Jesus ever meant that we are to literally cut off limbs or pluck out our eyes. It was completely figurative and not literal.



Sorry if it seemed personal. It wasn't meant to be.

But you do believe Christ meant for us to literally love our neighbors? You'd give your sperm to them so they could conceive. That's taking his word's pretty literally. Taking them wrongly, might I add, but that's a whole different discussion. Now, I never ONCE said "If lust, go castrate yourself" or "Can't help but look at a girl, poke out your eye!". I am telling you that you really actually should have such a conviction because what Christ said was true. If cutting off your arm will stop you from stealing things, therefor sinning, then it would much better to be maimed than to be in Hell for eternity. Now the issue with lust is cutting off your genitals or hand or anything will most likely not help it. So I was not speaking literally in this situation.

Toolman
Jul 26th 2005, 08:21 PM
In many ways than one. First off, you tried to make it out like I was being hypocritical where I was in no way. Second, you are twisting my words around and completely ignoring half the things I say.

Not hypocritical. I just found it questionable that an 18 year old is giving advice to others to literally cut off limbs when he himself is addicted to lust.
Doesn't that seem kind of scary to you?

Maybe I was confused on what you were saying because, noted below, you will find your words sounded quite literal.


Wrong. For YOU it is a sin too. The act itself IS a sin. Give me evidence that it is NOT sin and you will have a valid point.

It is not a sin because the scripture does not declare it one. Since I must base the definitions of sin upon scripture I cannot go upon my opinion, yours, nor anyone else. If God wanted to define this as sin He could have done so. His silence indicates that the act in and of itself is not sinful.

It is the scripture that defines sin, pure and simple and it never speaks a single syllable to this issue. Lust, yes, m*sturbation, no.

BTW - I'm not trying to make you angry (which it seems to me you are). I am just trying to point out where I believe you are wrong in this issue.

My sincere apologies if anything has come across as personal. I just believe you are completely wrong in this area. I'm sure you are a great guy but you are very young and very young in the faith so I'm sorry if I question what you declare as truth a bit harshly. It was not meant to be so and I hope we can continue to dialogue in a productive, edifying manner.


Why do you masturbate, if it is not out of lust?

Just to be clear I have not stated that I m*sturbate.


Do you do it to feel good? That in itself is a sin because you are using your sexuality to please yourself. You are to have sex to make your wife feel good, and her do the same, other wise, don't do it at all.

Where does scripture state that?

Please provide scripture that states:
1) Your sexuality should not be pleasing to you.
2) Your genitals are created exclusively to make your wife feel good.


This is no where close to the same thing. Jesus himself made water turn to wine. Obviously alcohol is not a sin if Christ himself made it. Now, drunkeness is the sin here, and some people struggle with it, others don't. There isn't a fine line where being drunk for some people isn't a sin for other people. No, that point is entirely irrelevant, if you're trying to make that.

Ok. I won't belabor the point.



But you do believe Christ meant for us to literally love our neighbors? You'd give your sperm to them so they could conceive. That's taking his word's pretty literally. Taking them wrongly, might I add, but that's a whole different discussion. Now,


I never spoke of sperm donation.


I never ONCE said "If lust, go castrate yourself" or "Can't help but look at a girl, poke out your eye!".

Then what were you saying here:


So yes, you should be willing to pluck out your eye, because it is a valid point Jesus made both figuratively and literally. Now, I'd pluck my eye out as a last resort, but you need to be THAT serious with God.

Seems like you were saying to literally poke out your eyes to me. That seems like you believe the verses are literal and I am addressing the danger in that approach.


I am telling you that you really actually should have such a conviction because what Christ said was true. If cutting off your arm will stop you from stealing things, therefor sinning, then it would much better to be maimed than to be in Hell for eternity. Now the issue with lust is cutting off your genitals or hand or anything will most likely not help it. So I was not speaking literally in this situation.

OK, it seemed you were but I am very glad for the clarification.

Scruffy Kid
Jul 26th 2005, 08:56 PM
Pax Vobiscum,

If you're still around I'd appreciate your turning on your PMs, and perhaps PMing your email address if you feel like doing so. Thanks.

Scruff.

Pax_Vobiscum
Jul 26th 2005, 08:58 PM
I actually didn't know it was turned off. I thought you had to be here for a while or something, but let me try to figure it out.


(And of course I'm still here. I'm drawn to this stuff like a moth to a flame, but hopefully with dissimilar results!)

Toolman
Jul 26th 2005, 09:05 PM
I actually didn't know it was turned off. I thought you had to be here for a while or something, but let me try to figure it out.

You do. Certain number of days and posts, though I can't remember the specifics off the top of my head.

Pax_Vobiscum
Jul 26th 2005, 09:12 PM
You do. Certain number of days and posts, though I can't remember the specifics off the top of my head.

Well, the e-mail function works, but we'll see how long I survive here. Probably not long enough to have my PM function turned on, but we'll see.

Incidentally, if anyone's interested in why I AM here, it's first because I like to clear up misconceptions about Catholicism whether they're unintentional or not. The administrators ought not have a problem with that--regardless whether you agree with us, it's only fair that you disagree with what we ACTUALLY believe. 99% of the time untruths are bandied about like scripture about the Catholic Church.

Secondly, I'm surprised to find that I've learned quite a bit about you guys in the short time I've been here. I'm used to seeing the front-lines of Protestantism, usually when the swords are pointed right in my face. This forum is an extremely educational fly-on-the-wall experience.

Toolman
Jul 26th 2005, 10:50 PM
Well, the e-mail function works, but we'll see how long I survive here. Probably not long enough to have my PM function turned on, but we'll see.

That is up to you for the most part. Can you agree with the rules of the board, if so then you will remain for as long as you wish.


Incidentally, if anyone's interested in why I AM here, it's first because I like to clear up misconceptions about Catholicism whether they're unintentional or not. The administrators ought not have a problem with that--regardless whether you agree with us, it's only fair that you disagree with what we ACTUALLY believe. 99% of the time untruths are bandied about like scripture about the Catholic Church.

This board is for the exploration of the protestant faith. It is not a Roman Catholic bashing board. If defending or exploring Roman Catholic beliefs is your objective then this board is not the forum for such.


Secondly, I'm surprised to find that I've learned quite a bit about you guys in the short time I've been here. I'm used to seeing the front-lines of Protestantism, usually when the swords are pointed right in my face. This forum is an extremely educational fly-on-the-wall experience.

Enjoy.

Scruffy Kid
Jul 27th 2005, 02:19 PM
Being logical, calm, and kind is all part of speaking the truth in love

Not all wrong practices are explicitly condemned in Scripture.
There are many practices in life which most Christians would regard as wrong -- not just wrong for them personally, but wrong absolutely, contrary to the will of God and sinful -- which are not explicitly mentioned in Scripture.. Some important examples might be polygamy, slavery, abortion, cussing, or racism, or the use of public office to promote personal or family welfare in ways not germane to the public use of public office (for instance, insider trading, or congressfolks accepting gifts from lobbyists).. While some of these practices may, at one point or another, be illegal, the prevailing view among many sincere Christians is that the practices are wrong whether or not they are outlawed, and that they ought to be outlawed if they are not.. Thus, the abolitionists, and the Clapham sect, campaigned vigorously against the slave trade, and against slave-holding.. Most Christians believe that they were right to do so, and that the principles involved were Scriptural.

Discussing what's simply right & wrong is not ipso facto being coercive.
It would be rather odd, IMO, to say that someone arguing that slavery is wrong, and contrary to God's will, is being "coercive" or "forcing others.". To make an argument for a point of view about what is morally acceptable is not generally understood as coercion.. Similarly, it seems to me that it would be odd to say that someone who argues that polygamy or cussing or slavery are wrong things to do is arguing "unscripturally", or being coercive, just because these activities are not -- at least on some views -- explicitly described as sins in Scripture.

Discussing the tenor of Scriptural principles is legitimate Scriptural argument.
People differ about how to read Scripture.. While some like quoting isolated proof-texts, others argue more broadly, based on the whole picture Scripture presents.. For instance, in the debate over homosexuality, I hold that the clearness of the Scriptural disapproval does not hinge merely upon a handful of specific texts disapproving of the practice (which clever pro-hs commentators explain away quibbling over greek vocabulary and the like in ways that are hard for all but very accomplished scholars to contest); rather, IMO, the whole context of how Scripture presents the creation of man and woman is relevant: the command to be fruitful and multiply, the importance of lineage and progeny, the Fatherhood of God, and the goodness of marriage.. These combine to provide a context within which marriage between a man and a woman as a lifelong union of lives is the clear intent of Scripture, and the only permissible context for sexual intercourse.

Jesus himself made broad Scriptural arguments, and held that (OT) Scripture prohibited things which had not been explicitly prohibited.
Is it a proper way to argue to make this kind of broad use of the whole way Scripture presents matters relevent to an issue?. Certainly, for Jesus seems to have argued that way! Jesus took topics -- including moral prohibitions -- not explicitly included in the (OT) Scriptures (all the Scriptures, as of that date) and advanced them not only on the basis of his own authority, but also on the basis that they were supported by the (OT) Scriptures.. One cannot find explicit OT support for a general prohibition of divorce; but Jesus stated not only that divorce was generally (even if not in every case) wrong; in doing so he moreover also indicated that a proper reading of the (OT) Scriptures implied that prohibition, arguing for instance from Creation intent (Mark 10:5-9, etc.) One cannot find explicit OT indications that the dead are raised, but Christ, in stating that they are, criticized scribes who didn't think so for "not knowing the Scriptures" (Matt 22:29, Mark 12:24).

There are similar examples -- about both theological and moral matters -- on topics about which all Christians have agreed through the ages.
The same is clearly true in a post-NT context. (1) From the beginning, IMO, Christians have held that Jesus is God, and that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God.. Yet these fundamental theological points are set out in explicit form in the NT, or in other parts of the Bible.. Generally Christians hold, and I certainly hold, that these doctrines are taught in Scripture, and I'm not thrown off course by recognizing that they are not stated explicitly.. We may proceed from what is said by Jesus to understand the nature of his claim to be God in the absence of a precise logical statement of the doctrine of the Trinity.. And it is clear that, from the earliest days, that is the way Christians have understood his claims.. The uniform teaching of the Church through the ages is important, not least in understanding what is a proper reading of Scripture.. (2) The matter of polygamy is similar. There is no explicit prohibition of polygamy in Scripture; although probably I Tim 3 (vv. 2 and 12) and Titus 1:6 disapprove church elders having multiple wives. But the universal disapproval that the church has expressed of this practice from earliest times is not therefore without Scriptural basis.. Rather, most Christians have held -- despite the multiple wives of the patriarches and the early kings of Israel, which God overlooked -- that this was not in accord with the right way of life which the Scriptures commend. Jesus's comment on the union of Adam and Eve (Matt. 19:4-6; Mark 10:5-9), for instance, suggests the line of reasoning involved, and associates Jesus's teaching with it.

Making arguments, good or bad, is legit. Impugning others is less so.
It's perfectly fair for those who think mb-n is just dandy (apart from lust) to advocate their views on a variety of grounds. Some have, in fairly recent posts on this thread, given general arguments that God would not have made our biology as it is if its tendencies were ungodly, for instance. This is not an argument based on explicit Scriptural texts, and many objections can be made to it, but that doesn't rule it out of court. It's quite proper for those who reason in this way to try to develop their views, loosely at first and perhaps in more detail, and with more Scriptural support, as others present objections they see to the reasoning. It would be quite improper to denounce someone who brings such arguments as unscriptural, IMO. In precisely the same way, it's fair for those who think mb-n is nasty to argue their case. Some argue against mb-n because Scripture doesn't explicitly permit it, from the general Scriptural association of right sexual expression with fruitfulness, from the Scripture's emphasis on self-control, and Scripture's arguably disapproval of preoccupation with sex in any context other than that of conjugal love-making. And it would likewise be quite improper to denounce someone who brings such arguments as unscriptural, IMO.

Let's debate logically and fairly. Let's love one another.
I think it will help to the intellectual quality of debate, as well as the Christian atmosphere of the board, as we all strive to have a gracious tone, an open mind, a willingness to listen to others even when we disagree, and exert great care not to seem to invoke authority or status or age to impugn arguments one disagrees with, or -- especially -- the persons making those arguments.

Pax_Vobiscum
Jul 27th 2005, 02:34 PM
Wow, Kid. Awesome, well-reasoned post. Did you write it? I hope I'm not hurting your reputation here by agreeing with you, but that clearly articulated some very important points that could go a long way toward dispelling myths we have about each other.

Toolman
Jul 27th 2005, 07:16 PM
Well said Scruff and points taken.

Vegeto
Jul 27th 2005, 08:13 PM
I agree, that was an awsome post Scruffy, I'd rep you if I had the rep to give. ( :hmm: I wonder if I could transfer some rep I have at another v-bulletin board...)
Alot of interesting points here. I have to agree with those that tend to sepparate lust from m*sterbat1on. Here are some reasons why.

1. Other sins that are sepparated from actions.

a. Pride can be attached to accomplishment. Pride is a sin. One does not attempts to eliminate accomplishment, one attempts to eliminate pride.


b. Glutony can be sepparated from eating. One does not attempt to stop eating, one attempts to eliminate glutony.


c.Rage can be attached to frustrating e-disagreements, so can wrath. I'm impressed with the ability of many here not to fly off the handle in an uncontrollable rage in this thread. We don't eliminate our participation in discussion.
2. Uses of masterbation other than that of lustful fleshy indulgance

a. Donating sperm (yes you could say god doesn't want you to interfere just because their current situation is not to be able to conceive, but what makes you think it is different when someone is addicted to s3x? Suddenly you are trying to interfere.)


b. Relief from overwelming s3xual energy build up (Call it an addiction if you want, but if you look at other organs that are just as dependant on external energy and are also just as dependant on excreting leftovers from energy conversion.)
(1.) The body requires food in the stomach, it also requires to expell the remainder leftovers out the urethra and rectum. Addiction?

(2.) The body requires oxygen, oxygen is both taken in from the lungs and enters the blood stream, and leftovers are expelled again out from the lungs. Addiction?
(3.) Your heart and mind, in a spiritual sense are completely dependant on Jesus Christ, God, and the bible. Leftover crap is expelled in the form of disbelief. Addiction?


3. Here is the problem

Most people don't know how to m&sterbat3 properly within the context of their bodies energy systems. Most people do not know how to breath correctly either, but thank goodness nobody is calling that a sin! One thing that IS fortunate is that there is available information for diet controle. Infrormation on your s3xu&l organs is so elusive, however, that most people here don't even know what signifigants their sexual organs play in their bodies to the extent that they are willing to cut off all energy production due to uniformed fear based thinking! Relax guys there is a proper way to use your organs! For those of you who have altered their diet for health, you know this is true.

"But c'mon, my t3stic&ls are not the same as my stomach. I eat because I need to, people only m&sterbat3 for pleasure and no other reason" <-----I'm sure that's what some of you are thinking by now. The real truth is that m&sterbat1on has it's place in hormonal energy processes. The problem is that
(1.) Most people don't absorb hormonal energies properly due to impropper techniuqe.
(2.) Most people expell those potential hormonal energies when they ej&culat3.

Unfortunatly, as I said, there is very little available information to the average (american especially) person as to the proper uses of their sexual organs, and as a result, only two choices remain- Cutting yourself off, or blatent abuse. IMO, cutting yourself off is another kind of abuse like starvation.

As far as I know, old school martial artists are the only ones who have put forth enough study into the 'how to' of these bodily systems to be able to teach such techniques.

In my opinion, you need to master your bodily processes in order to live on a more spiritual level. Some will have more difficulties with s3xual desires than others just as some have a greater tendacy towards diet disorders. In the mean time, keep your faith and ask Jesus to show you the way. Learning what not to do, (lust) is only half of the story, the other half is learning what to do.

Pax_Vobiscum
Jul 27th 2005, 09:02 PM
Wow. That was definitely the most unique defense of indulging the carnal appetites outside of marriage I've ever heard.

Two things: (1) Sexual energy doesn't "build up." That's a myth of our sex-saturated culture. Your body isn't in danger from "dry spells." (2) Even if it were possible to separate lust from the pure mechanical act of self-abuse (and I can't stress enough how ludicrous that sounds) it doesn't matter. Self-abuse is not the natural end of the sexual organ or sexuality. What is the natural end? Ultimately, procreation, though that does NOT preclude or supercede the unitative (or loving) aspect of sex.

Someone implied earlier that I was saying (or implying) that erections or arousal are sinful. That couldn't be farther from the truth.

I'll say it again--is this a good and holy act? Is this something you should be doing with your time?

Pax_Vobiscum
Jul 27th 2005, 09:06 PM
Here's something from a website dedicated to teaching about chastity. (Apparently you can't post links, otherwise I would):

What's wrong with masturbation?

Masturbation doesn't get rid of temptations any more than a prostitute does. Both may temporarily relieve sexual desires, but our goal as Christians is not simply to get rid of temptations, but to glorify God with our bodies. The idea that masturbation can be used to decrease sexual desires is like saying that lighter fluid can be used to extinguish a fire. If anything, masturbation incites lustful thoughts and teaches a person that he or she deserves--and needs--sexual gratification whenever the desire arises.

To understand why masturbation is wrong, we need to step back from the world's constant clamoring for sexual "needs" and go back to God's plan for sex. Sexuality is meant to be a gift between a husband and wife for the purpose of babies and bonding. When it is taken out of that context the gift is degraded--and in the case of masturbation, altogether ceases being a gift. The purpose of sexuality is abandoned, because the center of the sexual act becomes "me" instead of "we" and the person is trained to look to himself for sexual fulfillment. The gift of one's sexuality is misused for the sake of lifeless pleasure. Only selfless giving will fulfill you.

When people misuse their sexuality in this way, they begin to use pleasure to change their mood, release tension, or forget their loneliness. Masturbation becomes an escape. It may pacify them, but it will never satisfy them, because they'll always want more. They use the fantasies of their mind and the pleasures of their body to flee from reality and the call to love. Their goal in sexual activity has been reduced to merely receiving pleasure instead of showing love. If men and women have trained themselves to use their sexuality in this way, why would this suddenly change once they're married? The husband or wife will simply be a substitute for the fantasies, to be used in place of self. They may even imagine the fantasies while with their spouse. The problem is that the lust will be transferred to the other, not healed within.

Worse yet, merely getting married will not cure their problem with masturbation. Because masturbation has trained disordered impulses in them, the true pleasures of marriage--though far superior--may not appease their warped attachments. Where will they turn to find those pleasures within marriage? Often, they'll continue to struggle with masturbation, to the sorrow and distress of their spouse, and to the detriment of their marriage. A person who does not preserve his own purity when alone will have a difficult time remaining pure with another. If he lacks self-control when alone, he will be unable to properly give himself to his spouse when the time comes. You can not give what you do not control. No self-control equals no gift of self. To the extent that there is no gift of self, there is no love. If you want to be able to genuinely love your spouse, you must build self-mastery.

BickBenedict
Jul 27th 2005, 09:10 PM
Great information you posted Pax Vobiscum. :pp

Vegeto
Jul 28th 2005, 02:42 AM
Wow. That was definitely the most unique defense of indulging the carnal appetites outside of marriage I've ever heard.

Well, you may be right Pax, but I don't see how someone could suddenly become ready for the difficult task in managing pandora's box just because they have suddenly a ring around their finger.


If you want to be able to genuinely love your spouse, you must build self-mastery. This is the only point I make, how can you build self mastery by avoiding ones self? How can you master your own sexual nature by not confronting it? If you 'just don't do it', aren't you just hiding from it? I guess don't quite understand your point.

The methods I speak of teach you how to transform 'sexual energy' into 'loving energy.' Lust is Lust whether you are married or not, I guess I am not sure about how someone will know how to 'make love' without any previous practice and training. It all sounds good when you say it and read it, but I still don't understand it from a functional point of veiw.

I'm willing to listen, but you are going to have to do a lot more explaining for me to understand.

Fubajuba
Jul 28th 2005, 04:12 AM
Well, you may be right Pax, but I don't see how someone could suddenly become ready for the difficult task in managing pandora's box just because they have suddenly a ring around their finger.

It is never a sudden event. It comes with time, diligence, and prayer. You need to realize you need to get all this under control BEFORE you get the ring around your finger. His post was saying that the ring DOES NOT cure it. We cannot assume "Oh, when I have a wife to have s*x with, I will not have to mast*rbate". It may make it less of an imagined "necesity", but it is an addiction.


This is the only point I make, how can you build self mastery by avoiding ones self? How can you master your own sexual nature by not confronting it? If you 'just don't do it', aren't you just hiding from it? I guess don't quite understand your point.

In no way are you just simply "not doing it". You are most definitely to repent from the action itself. But with the refraining from the action, we must also work on refraining from situations where we may falter. If you have a problem (not you specifically, just in general) with lusting after... say... your neighbors daughter or some female you know, avoid situations where you would lust after her. This, in turn, would make that lust further from your mind, making you less prone to mb (mast*rbate is too long to type over and over again.) Aslo, if you have a problem with p*rnography or something of the like, work on avoiding that entirely. You cannot just throw away your computer or TV. Some day you will run into another computer, and the problem will still exist. We need to change our hearts, minds, and behaviors. We are not really to be masters of ourselves, we are to let Christ be our master.



The methods I speak of teach you how to transform 'sexual energy' into 'loving energy.' Lust is Lust whether you are married or not, I guess I am not sure about how someone will know how to 'make love' without any previous practice and training. It all sounds good when you say it and read it, but I still don't understand it from a functional point of veiw.


God has created our bodies to naturally know how to "make love". You will know how to use sex in marriage because, if you are in a Godly relationship, you will truly love eachother anyway. S*x is a HUGE demonstration of love in a Christian marriage. It is not to be the focus of a marriage, but it is a necesity in marriage. If you and your wife are truly loving eachother, and are both aiming to make eachother feel amazing, then it will be the most loving act you can commit together.

And very nice post, scruffy.

Armistead14
Jul 28th 2005, 04:27 AM
As young adults, who did not do this. I look at my son who is 8. He found his privates long ago. All he knows, that to rub it, feels good, even though at this time, there is no sexual thought. This is a natural feeling.

Now, do I tell him to stop and feel quilty, knowing that he can't? No, I don't. If I catch him humping once in awhile, I say nothing of it. He will continue this act and eventually, as he gets older, sexaul thought will become a part of it. WHen that happens, do you go back and say, that all those years of rubbing are now sin, because of sexual thought. I will not. I think it is a part of normal growing up.
I think the big problem is there is a difference between sexual desire and lust. I think we have been trained by church tradition to think sexual thought is a sin. How could that be, God created these sexual desires. I think lust is clearly defined in the bible, to take or want something that is not yours. Men in the OT had plenty of sex and lust. They had many wives, concubines and slave girls they had sex with and were still blessed by God. Only after they took something that didn't belong to them, was it sin.

As in David's case with bathsheba. It was adultry becasue she was another man's wife. That is often mentioned when talking about adultry. However, before that, David was having sex with multiple wives, concubines and slave women, and was blessed.
Everything in moderation, but I think it is so wrong to put this guilt trip on young adults. They will do it and sexual thought will be apart of it. It's about growing up, not a sin.

Fubajuba
Jul 28th 2005, 01:51 PM
Sexual desires are to be for your wife alone. Outside of that, it is sin. Your son is also a sinful being, you have to remember that. We are born sinful. He may not have the intelectual capacity yet to understand all this, but it he still sins. Children are an interesting group in the Bible, since they do not really have to know Jesus, because if they do not have the ability to accept Christ, they can be saved. (I don't believe we have free will at all, but that is a different discussion.) Those sexual desires ARE sin. I am not sure exactly what you are trying to illustrate, or how exactly you came to the conclusion that sexual desires and lust are different. The OT is an entirely different realm. Yes, they had many wives. Concubines were still wives. They were merely wives of non-royal blood, since only Kings and royalty had concubines. It was adultery if a man had sex with a slave girl, unless it was his wife of course. We are not in the OT, since the Covenant of the OT is now obselete and dead, and the laws of the OT and traditions are all over-powered by Christ. NT addresses a man and wife. When Paul speaks about marriage, in Ephesians 5, and how spouses should treat eachother, he uses the singular forms "Husband" and "Wife". We are to have ONE wife. Christ died for ONE church and sanctified ONE people (Christians).

In conclusion, that sexual desire IS sin, and this idealogy that it is simply a part of "growing up" is a horrible by-product of sexually saturated culture and indoctrination of that cultures beliefs into children from the day they are born. Your son attempting sexual acts now of course are not for sexual pleasure. But, where did he learn them? Television? Actual people? Those behaviors are LEARNED if they are performed before sexual desire is even a factor. I'd look a little closer at what your son watches, who he plays with, or anything else, because he has learned those behaviors somehow.

Toolman
Jul 28th 2005, 04:27 PM
Sexual desires are to be for your wife alone.

Are you saying that for men to have sexual desires is sin. Can you explain to me how a person cannot desire sex and yet still desire to be married. Does not the desire to marry indicate a desire to have sex?

Was it not God who created within man the desire to have sex?


I am not sure exactly what you are trying to illustrate, or how exactly you came to the conclusion that sexual desires and lust are different.

This is something that whitestone pointed out correctly earlier. He said that to have a productive discussion then there are some terms that should be defined.

If the desire to have sex is sin then wouldn't every person who is engaged to be married be lusting, because they have a desire to have sex, if the 2 are equal.


In conclusion, that sexual desire IS sin,

So now not only is masturbation a sin but the very desire to even have sex is a sin :rolleyes:

I personally find that idea sinful, because you call that which God created, sexual desire, sinful.


and this idealogy that it is simply a part of "growing up" is a horrible by-product of sexually saturated culture and indoctrination of that cultures beliefs into children from the day they are born. Your son attempting sexual acts now of course are not for sexual pleasure. But, where did he learn them? Television? Actual people? Those behaviors are LEARNED if they are performed before sexual desire is even a factor. I'd look a little closer at what your son watches, who he plays with, or anything else, because he has learned those behaviors somehow.

I thought the son was a born sinner? Why is there a need to "learn" this behaviour if it is something that is within him already. Does he need outside influence to "learn" to sin?

When an infant drinks a bottle, takes a bath or is given a comfy blanket they know that these things are pleasurable. When an infant touches their genit*ls they can also realize that this gives pleasure. God made the genit*ls to be an area of extreme pleasure. To condemn the knowledge of such pleasure as sin is just plain ridiculous IMO.

Vegeto
Jul 28th 2005, 05:14 PM
God has created our bodies to naturally know how to "make love". You will know how to use sex in marriage because, if you are in a Godly relationship, you will truly love eachother anyway. S*x is a HUGE demonstration of love in a Christian marriage.


I think there is a lont of ignorance in this statement. Your body is supposes to be able to breath properly on it's own too, but despite what you think, some people need to re-learn the process. If you are like most people, your breath is most likely shallow and not generated from the abdomen like a childs. Believe it or not, age can effect your natuaral processes. You can't remember what you have lost any better than you can see what your missing once you go blind. Making love is something natural, but most of us are not in our natural state anymore. Even if not m&sterbat1ing will prevent some of the falling apart of the natural state, quitting will not restore what has been lost over time. It also wont prevent your systems from falling apart once your are married and begine actively having s3x. Presenting 'love' as an abstract concept will not help anyone 'make love'. There is a difference.

As always, Jesus is necesary, but I don't remember the last time he let me sit back and just pretend everthing will be fine without hard work. If you are saying that quitting will be the end result of mastery, then I understand. But if you are trying to tell me that mastery is the end result of quitting or never starting... Then you lost me.

Fubajuba
Jul 29th 2005, 03:32 AM
Are you saying that for men to have sexual desires is sin. Can you explain to me how a person cannot desire sex and yet still desire to be married. Does not the desire to marry indicate a desire to have sex?


Sexual desire is probably one of the more broadly defined words i've seen used on this topic. I am somewhat alarmed that when you mention marriage, the first thing to come up afterwards is sex. I don't think the same way, if that is the case. My girlfriend is my best illustration. I love that girl a lot. I am doing and will continue to do anything within my power and God's will to marry that girl some day. Now, when I think of being married to her, I think of first... Being with her. Just being there, waking up next to her, eating breakfast with her, raising children with her, and falling asleep with her next to me. Sex, of course, is something in marriage that I want. Now, when I start thinking about sex, and she comes into mind, it becomes sin. I struggle greatly with that because she is the most beautiful woman in the world to me.



Was it not God who created within man the desire to have sex?

I don't see the point of stating the obvious there.



This is something that whitestone pointed out correctly earlier. He said that to have a productive discussion then there are some terms that should be defined.

If the desire to have sex is sin then wouldn't every person who is engaged to be married be lusting, because they have a desire to have sex, if the 2 are equal.



Here is where the definition of the words are important. Sexual desire encompasses a whole lot of things.




So now not only is masturbation a sin but the very desire to even have sex is a sin :rolleyes:

I personally find that idea sinful, because you call that which God created, sexual desire, sinful.



:hmm: Hmm... I'd like to see some scriptural back-up for that.

Anyway, I never said God's creations were sinful. But our mutilation of what is His is most definitely sinful. Our sexual desires are sinful. Now, merely stating "I want to have sex in marriage" is not sinful. Now, actually DESIRING sex, that moment, in your head, is sinful. The meanings of the words are where this is all a debate.




I thought the son was a born sinner? Why is there a need to "learn" this behaviour if it is something that is within him already. Does he need outside influence to "learn" to sin?

When an infant drinks a bottle, takes a bath or is given a comfy blanket they know that these things are pleasurable. When an infant touches their genit*ls they can also realize that this gives pleasure. God made the genit*ls to be an area of extreme pleasure. To condemn the knowledge of such pleasure as sin is just plain ridiculous IMO.

Of course the son was born a sinner. An 8 yearold, how ever, has not fallen victim of sexual sin by natural means. It HAS TO BE learned. You do not have the hormones which make you capable of desiring sex when you are 8 years old. Therefor, it is not natural to want it, it was learned either by TV, family, or some other person/people.

And how much more ridiculous can you get, saying that *I* am being ridiculous in calling "pleasure" sinful. SIN=PLEASURE. The 2 are almost ALWAYS synonymous. Yes, we are born with knowledge of pleasure. WE ARE BORN SINFUL!! Of course children will go for pleasure. Humans are in their most selfish state from the ages of infant till adulthood. A child touching their genital is sin. God created those things to have sex with your spouse with and procreate. He did not create them to be pleasurable for yourself. Selfishness is the root of all the problems mentioned in this thread. Selfishness is the root of ALL sin problems, but this one it is the most striking reason.

Fubajuba
Jul 29th 2005, 03:43 AM
I think there is a lont of ignorance in this statement. Your body is supposes to be able to breath properly on it's own too, but despite what you think, some people need to re-learn the process.

Ok, I am not exactly sure of the point being made here. People do have to relearn such functions because you have some sort of medical problem. :confused


If you are like most people, your breath is most likely shallow and not generated from the abdomen like a childs. Believe it or not, age can effect your natuaral processes. You can't remember what you have lost any better than you can see what your missing once you go blind. Making love is something natural, but most of us are not in our natural state anymore.

What exactly are you saying? We lose our "natural state" through out life? I hate to break it to you, buddy. You are sinful from the start. THAT is your natural state. You will ALWAYS want sex, and will ALWAYS know how to do it. Mommy and daddy really didn't need to tell us about the birds and the bee's. We'd figure it out on our own.



Even if not m&sterbat1ing will prevent some of the falling apart of the natural state, quitting will not restore what has been lost over time. It also wont prevent your systems from falling apart once your are married and begine actively having s3x. Presenting 'love' as an abstract concept will not help anyone 'make love'. There is a difference.

The above statement didn't make a whole lot of sense, but I will try. Your systems will not "fall apart" unless you don't have sex for like 20 years, or you have some medical problems. Most of the time, it DOES fall apart because of mere age. Mb-n will not help you at all, in fact it is a MAJOR problem in marriage. And presenting "love" should be the only thing given in sex. If your sex is not an act of love, then your heart is not in the right place, or your relationship is not a Godly one, plain and simple. Sex is made to show love to your wife. This "abstract concept" of love is the most important part of your marriage. It most definitely does include "making love", other wise such a phrase would have NEVER come into existance.



As always, Jesus is necesary, but I don't remember the last time he let me sit back and just pretend everthing will be fine without hard work. If you are saying that quitting will be the end result of mastery, then I understand. But if you are trying to tell me that mastery is the end result of quitting or never starting... Then you lost me.

Mastery IS the end result of quiting. Once you quit, you are master. Jesus also never told you to mast*rbate. Hardwork is NOTHING apart from Christ. You are trying to approach this as "If I fall, but get back up, I will eventually learn not to stumble at all". It is better to never have fallen, or never to fall again, because that will ensure that you can walk, even RUN if you so desired. You realize that repentence does not come through experimentation to the point of a cataclysmic event forcing you to stop. That is a hard thing to understand, even I have a hard time with that.

Toolman
Jul 29th 2005, 02:32 PM
Sexual desire is probably one of the more broadly defined words i've seen used on this topic. I am somewhat alarmed that when you mention marriage, the first thing to come up afterwards is sex.

Well since we were talking about sexual desire, and not eating breakfast or raising children, it was the topic of discussion :rolleyes:


I don't think the same way, if that is the case. My girlfriend is my best illustration. I love that girl a lot. I am doing and will continue to do anything within my power and God's will to marry that girl some day. Now, when I think of being married to her, I think of first... Being with her. Just being there, waking up next to her, eating breakfast with her, raising children with her, and falling asleep with her next to me. Sex, of course, is something in marriage that I want.

So you do have a desire for sex. This was my point that the desire for sex is given by God and is not a sinful thing. I will share scripture further down.


Now, when I start thinking about sex, and she comes into mind, it becomes sin. I struggle greatly with that because she is the most beautiful woman in the world to me.


I don't see the point of stating the obvious there.

Well, my point was that you claimed sexual desire to be a sin and I believe God created within people the desire to have sex and God doesn't create sin.


Here is where the definition of the words are important. Sexual desire encompasses a whole lot of things.

Agreed. That's why we must be EXTREMELY careful when condemning something a sin to define exactly what we mean.

James 3:1 - My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.


:hmm: Hmm... I'd like to see some scriptural back-up for that.

Genesis 1:31 - Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

If God created within man the desire to have sex and He proclaims it as good, then it cannot be sin.

To claim that what God says is good/clean as sin/unclean is sinful to do. If one does so then one is making God a liar.


Anyway, I never said God's creations were sinful. But our mutilation of what is His is most definitely sinful. Our sexual desires are sinful. Now, merely stating "I want to have sex in marriage" is not sinful.

Fubajuba, can you not see the contradiction in what you are saying?

You say our sexual desires are sinful in one breath and then, in the next breath, that the desire to have sex is not sinful :confused


Now, actually DESIRING sex, that moment, in your head, is sinful. The meanings of the words are where this is all a debate.

So we agree then that sexual desire is not a sin. It is created by God.

What you do with that desire in your heart could potentially be a sin, but the desire to have sex in and of itself is not a sin but a creation of God.



Of course the son was born a sinner. An 8 yearold, how ever, has not fallen victim of sexual sin by natural means. It HAS TO BE learned. You do not have the hormones which make you capable of desiring sex when you are 8 years old. Therefor, it is not natural to want it, it was learned either by TV, family, or some other person/people.

That is incorrect. A male infant (and female infant) can have various levels of testosterone. All do, some to greater extents than others.

All male infants are capable of er*ctions and the feeling of pleasure in their gen*tals, as much as they are able to feel any other pleasure.

So the "feel good" of the gen*tals and the hormone testosterone are not something that is learned from another but are there naturally.


And how much more ridiculous can you get, saying that *I* am being ridiculous in calling "pleasure" sinful. SIN=PLEASURE. The 2 are almost ALWAYS synonymous.

Fubajuba,

I would like to see any scriptural backing that claims sin=pleasure.

Do you not get pleasure from being with your girlfriend, or is it only painful for you?
Do you have no pleasure in fellowship with other believers?
Do you have any pleasure in eating a nice meal?

Will you find pleasure in the birth of your children? In watching them play?

Will there be no pleasure in your marriage bed?

But all of this is sinful, right?

God never intended for any pleasure in life, right?


Yes, we are born with knowledge of pleasure. WE ARE BORN SINFUL!!

So you claim that Adam and Christ were not born (Adam created) with a knowledge of pleasure?

That is your theological stance here. That Christ did not have a knowledge of pleasure and did not have any pleasure in His earthly life or now?


Of course children will go for pleasure. Humans are in their most selfish state from the ages of infant till adulthood.

I won't disagree.


A child touching their genital is sin.

I find this statement completely without biblical backing, reason or common sense.

Let me ask you. Are you going to allow your children to play with toys?

Playing with toys is a completely selfish, pleasurable act. It does no one any good and is for pleasure only. Is a child playing with a toy a sinful act?


God created those things to have sex with your spouse with and procreate. He did not create them to be pleasurable for yourself.

Right, that is why you have an org*sm during nocturnal emission :rolleyes:


Selfishness is the root of all the problems mentioned in this thread. Selfishness is the root of ALL sin problems, but this one it is the most striking reason.

Finding pleasure in life does not equal selfishness. God created pleasure as well as tribulations and there is a season and time for all things.

There is a religious spirit that tries to pull all the pleasure out of life and it is also a selfish spirit. Just something to think about.

Pax_Vobiscum
Jul 29th 2005, 02:38 PM
I don't see why there's confusion here. Sexual desire is healthy. Lust is sinful. What's the problem?

Lust is a disordered use of sexual desire. It's end is totally selfish. Desire--even when out of the context of marriage--isn't sinful unless you willfully entertain it. We all know that those "moods" sometimes come over us. The mere mood isn't sinful unless you start thinking, "Hey, wouldn't it be nice to..."

It seems like you guys are sort of talking past each other, but still basically agreeing.

Vegeto
Jul 29th 2005, 09:04 PM
Ok, I am not exactly sure of the point being made here. People do have to relearn such functions because you have some sort of medical problem. :confused

Well yes, but most people do without even knowing it.



What exactly are you saying? We lose our "natural state" through out life? I hate to break it to you, buddy. You are sinful from the start. THAT is your natural state. You will ALWAYS want sex, and will ALWAYS know how to do it. Mommy and daddy really didn't need to tell us about the birds and the bee's. We'd figure it out on our own..
I'm not talking about s3x, I'm talking about making love. We all know animal s3x from the begining. The s3x you know naturally is not love making. Making love is different, and making love is not the same is having s3x with someone you love.




The above statement didn't make a whole lot of sense, but I will try. Your systems will not "fall apart" unless you don't have sex for like 20 years, or you have some medical problems. Most of the time, it DOES fall apart because of mere age. Mb-n will not help you at all, in fact it is a MAJOR problem in marriage. 20 years to fall apart? Hmmmm, that sounds like a pretty average age to get married... (20 years).



And presenting "love" should be the only thing given in sex. If your sex is not an act of love, then your heart is not in the right place, or your relationship is not a Godly one, plain and simple. Sex is made to show love to your wife. This "abstract concept" of love is the most important part of your marriage. It most definitely does include "making love", other wise such a phrase would have NEVER come into existance.
Once again, making love is not as simple as showing love through the act of s3x. Giving pleasure to your wife unselfishly through the act of s3x is NOT the same as making love. The phrase 'making love' did come into existance for a reason, and it has lost its meaning since. Unselfishness is only a small aspect of it. But it sounds like you think you are a natural. Not everyone is so lucky. I just find it strange that you are so sure of your theories and interpretations, but appear to have no experience whatsoever. If you find lustful thoughts of your girlfriend so difficult to fight off now, just wait until she is naked and pressed against your body... You might be wishing you had practiced some how... you might just wished that you mastered-your-bait.

BTW, j*cking off to p0rn just to get the 0rg&sm, isn't the only kind of m&sterbat1on. Just as the loving act of s3x isn't the same as making love.

Fubajuba
Jul 30th 2005, 04:33 AM
I'm not talking about s3x, I'm talking about making love. We all know animal s3x from the begining. The s3x you know naturally is not love making. Making love is different, and making love is not the same is having s3x with someone you love.



Making love IS having sex with someone you love. If you love them like you should in a godly marriage, it will require no learning what-so-ever. Besides, mast*rbation teaches you to love yourself, not anyone else.



20 years to fall apart? Hmmmm, that sounds like a pretty average age to get married... (20 years).

:rofl: :rofl: Ok, obviously you had no idea what I was saying. I am talking about not having sex for like 20 years when you are about.... 50-60. THEN it causes problems. Not 20 years old. You're perfectly ready to go at age 20.



Once again, making love is not as simple as showing love through the act of s3x. Giving pleasure to your wife unselfishly through the act of s3x is NOT the same as making love. The phrase 'making love' did come into existance for a reason, and it has lost its meaning since. Unselfishness is only a small aspect of it. But it sounds like you think you are a natural. Not everyone is so lucky. I just find it strange that you are so sure of your theories and interpretations, but appear to have no experience whatsoever. If you find lustful thoughts of your girlfriend so difficult to fight off now, just wait until she is naked and pressed against your body... You might be wishing you had practiced some how... you might just wished that you mastered-your-bait.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: PRACTICED SOME HOW?!?! You do NOT need to practice to know what to do when someone is in that situation. Now, I would really like it if you wouldn't say things that would possibly cause me to stumble. And also, there should be no reason for my girlfriend to naked and pressed up against in unless it was in some sort of freak accident where I was saving her life, not engaging in sex. We are not to be in that situation until we are married, God willing. Mast*rbation WILL NOT teach you how to "make love". You are not supposed to practice before you get married. I don't know, but I don't see what's wrong about learning once you get married. You are not meant to know how to do all that stuff before marriage.



BTW, j*cking off to p0rn just to get the 0rg&sm, isn't the only kind of m&sterbat1on. Just as the loving act of s3x isn't the same as making love.

Yes, but if you haven't read any of my posts, or ever read a Bible, that act is wrong in all situations. P*rnography involved, or not involved at all. It is wrong.

And I have a question for you... If having sex in a loving way is not making love, what exactly is it then? I don't know, that is a pretty straight forward thing.

Fubajuba
Jul 30th 2005, 04:51 AM
Well, my point was that you claimed sexual desire to be a sin and I believe God created within people the desire to have sex and God doesn't create sin.





Agreed. That's why we must be EXTREMELY careful when condemning something a sin to define exactly what we mean.

James 3:1 - My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.


I think you need to be even more careful when protecting something as not sinful when it comes to definitions of words. The words "sexual desire" are EXTREMELY broad, and you cannot deny that a majority of the time, except in the case where you say "I want to have sex some day" or something like that, it is sinful.




Genesis 1:31 - Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

That didn't really support that, but it is a good verse anyway.



If God created within man the desire to have sex and He proclaims it as good, then it cannot be sin.

There's no direct scriptural backing to that. Nothing in man is good, since we use it all to our own devices. God's idea of sexual desire is good, the actual desire we poses has been warped and mutilated to the point of it no where resembling that of Gods' intention.



To claim that what God says is good/clean as sin/unclean is sinful to do. If one does so then one is making God a liar.





Fubajuba, can you not see the contradiction in what you are saying?

You say our sexual desires are sinful in one breath and then, in the next breath, that the desire to have sex is not sinful :confused .


Basically, it comes down to definition. A major error in the argument you're giving is the fact that sexual desire is NOT so clean cut of a word to defend it easily.



That is incorrect. A male infant (and female infant) can have various levels of testosterone. All do, some to greater extents than others.

All male infants are capable of er*ctions and the feeling of pleasure in their gen*tals, as much as they are able to feel any other pleasure.

So the "feel good" of the gen*tals and the hormone testosterone are not something that is learned from another but are there naturally.


This isn't a topic to be argued with me, since I actually have knowledge in this field. In fact, I am going to major in psychology. I aced the class, and I got a 5 on the AP exam, so I know my stuff in there.

Anyway, yes, children can have er*ctions. Sure, it feels good. Those feelings are NOT sexual. Sexual behaviors are LEARNED before puberty. Testosterone is not present, other wise you'd have auxilary hair and other secondary s*xual characteristics.




Fubajuba,

I would like to see any scriptural backing that claims sin=pleasure.

Do you not get pleasure from being with your girlfriend, or is it only painful for you?
Do you have no pleasure in fellowship with other believers?
Do you have any pleasure in eating a nice meal?

Will you find pleasure in the birth of your children? In watching them play?

Will there be no pleasure in your marriage bed?

But all of this is sinful, right?

God never intended for any pleasure in life, right?


This is a pathetic and frustrating rape of my words. I never said pleasure was sin. The two can be used synonymously quite often. now... SIN is ALWAYS pleasureable. Somehow, someway, it makes you feel good. Sex makes you feel good. Stealing makes you feel good. Lying, Cheating, Murdering (if you actually do, generally there is something wrong with you that makes you enjoy this). Jealousy is in PERSUIT of pleasure. All sin is pleasurable, otherwise, we would not sin.

Pleasure is NOT sin. I apologize if I said so or made it sound like it.



So you claim that Adam and Christ were not born (Adam created) with a knowledge of pleasure?

That is your theological stance here. That Christ did not have a knowledge of pleasure and did not have any pleasure in His earthly life or now?


:confused What?



I won't disagree.



I find this statement completely without biblical backing, reason or common sense.






Let me ask you. Are you going to allow your children to play with toys?

Playing with toys is a completely selfish, pleasurable act. It does no one any good and is for pleasure only. Is a child playing with a toy a sinful act?



:note:




Right, that is why you have an org*sm during nocturnal emission :rolleyes:


Yes, but did I say those were sinful? you never can consent to those emissions. They may be a result of sexual dreams, but I don't even feel like arguing on that topic at the moment.



Finding pleasure in life does not equal selfishness. God created pleasure as well as tribulations and there is a season and time for all things.

There is a religious spirit that tries to pull all the pleasure out of life and it is also a selfish spirit. Just something to think about.

:B

:giveup: I really should have given up on this whole topic before I posted. Nothing has been happened except more and more people being deluded by "feel-good-logic", having my words changed, misread intentionally, mutilated, and ultimately my points have been dismembered and desecrated to the point of no recognition. The blood of those who are wrong here is cleansed from my hands. Enjoy being blissfully ignorant, for such ignorance will only prove to be another thing to be held accountable for in the end. I may have to account for this, but I will NOT back down on my convictions for this board, or any other earthly being. Good-bye.:giveup:

Fubajuba
Jul 30th 2005, 04:53 AM
Oh yes, and I can't forget about one other thing, very important, especially to administrators. It is, as far as I've seen, against board policies to attack people personally, especially about age.

If there is any more discussion to be done with me about this topic of mast*rbation, contact me with PM, AIM, or even call my house phone number if you really want to talk. I'd love to talk.

Toolman
Jul 30th 2005, 05:37 AM
I think you need to be even more careful when protecting something as not sinful when it comes to definitions of words. The words "sexual desire" are EXTREMELY broad, and you cannot deny that a majority of the time, except in the case where you say "I want to have sex some day" or something like that, it is sinful.

I have a desire to have sex right now, but it is not sinful. I have always had that desire to one degree or another. The desire was given by God.

What I do with that desire and how I treat God's gift determines whether I enter into sinful conduct or not.


That didn't really support that, but it is a good verse anyway.

It does support if in fact God gave the desire to have sex, which He did and He proclaimed it good.


There's no direct scriptural backing to that. Nothing in man is good, since we use it all to our own devices. God's idea of sexual desire is good, the actual desire we poses has been warped and mutilated to the point of it no where resembling that of Gods' intention.

Do you not believe that followers of Christ are new creations and capable of God working good desires in them?

Is your desire to marry your girlfriend good or not?

Is there no ability within regenerated believers to desire that which is good?


Basically, it comes down to definition. A major error in the argument you're giving is the fact that sexual desire is NOT so clean cut of a word to defend it easily.

Feel free to define it. The definition seems very clear to me but words and communication can be tricky.

I contend that God is the one who gave man the desire to have sex (sexual desire). Now man can twist that which God has given but that does not make the initial gift sinful.


This isn't a topic to be argued with me, since I actually have knowledge in this field. In fact, I am going to major in psychology. I aced the class, and I got a 5 on the AP exam, so I know my stuff in there.

Anyway, yes, children can have er*ctions. Sure, it feels good. Those feelings are NOT sexual.

Here was your earlier statement for review:


A child touching their genital is sin.

So, if a child has an er*ction and it feels good and those feelings are not sexual but it is a sin if the child touches their genitals. :confused

Not sure why you think that has anything to do with psychology.


Sexual behaviors are LEARNED before puberty. Testosterone is not present, other wise you'd have auxilary hair and other secondary s*xual characteristics.

You might need to take a biology class then because testosterone is most definitely present in all humans, even in the fetus.

Testosterone is what makes a male child's testes drop. Here are a few articles for your review:

http://adc.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/archdischild;63/10/1198
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=498842&dopt=Citation
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=17259&dopt=Citation
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=333063&tools=bot
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2069866&dopt=Citation
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=2605795&dopt=Citation


This is a pathetic and frustrating rape of my words. I never said pleasure was sin. The two can be used synonymously quite often. now... SIN is ALWAYS pleasureable. Somehow, someway, it makes you feel good. Sex makes you feel good. Stealing makes you feel good. Lying, Cheating, Murdering (if you actually do, generally there is something wrong with you that makes you enjoy this). Jealousy is in PERSUIT of pleasure. All sin is pleasurable, otherwise, we would not sin.

Pleasure is NOT sin. I apologize if I said so or made it sound like it.

Cool, as long as we were able to clarify then we have reached some understandings and that is what dialogue is all about (or should be).

So we can agree that pleasure is not sin. Sin can be pleasurable, yes, but pleasure, in and of itself, is not sin.



:confused What?

Sorry for the confusion. Let me elaborate further:

You said:

Yes, we are born with knowledge of pleasure. WE ARE BORN SINFUL!!

This statement seems to indicate that you believe the knowledge of pleasure comes from being born in a sinful state. It seems to me you are equating a knowledge of pleasure with being born a sinner.

Since Christ was not born a sinner then it would seem that He would have no knowledge of pleasure.

I hope you can see my confusion caused by your statement.


Yes, but did I say those were sinful? you never can consent to those emissions. They may be a result of sexual dreams, but I don't even feel like arguing on that topic at the moment.

My point was regarding this statement:


He did not create them to be pleasurable for yourself.

If God did not create our genitals to be pleasurable to just ourselves then why do men have org*sm when having a nocturnal emission?

Seems to me that God has no problem with the pleasure that is given to an individual when having an emission. So I can see a defensible position against your statement. That's all I was saying, not that you claimed emissions to be sinful.


I really should have given up on this whole topic before I posted. Nothing has been happened except more and more people being deluded by "feel-good-logic", having my words changed, misread intentionally, mutilated, and ultimately my points have been dismembered and desecrated to the point of no recognition. The blood of those who are wrong here is cleansed from my hands. Enjoy being blissfully ignorant, for such ignorance will only prove to be another thing to be held accountable for in the end. I may have to account for this, but I will NOT back down on my convictions for this board, or any other earthly being. Good-bye.:giveup:

I will defer from responding to this.

Toolman
Jul 30th 2005, 05:39 AM
Oh yes, and I can't forget about one other thing, very important, especially to administrators. It is, as far as I've seen, against board policies to attack people personally, especially about age.

Fubajuba,

If you felt my comment on your age was a personal attack I sincerely apologize and ask for your forgiveness in Christ for that. I should not have mentioned it or called it into question.

Your opinion, convictions and experience are completely valid and worthy of hearing and discussing.

I'm sorry for causing any problem there.

Scruffy Kid
Jul 30th 2005, 07:48 AM
Coming to understand Family, S*x, and Marriage Biblically

IMO, our conversation and thinking about particular matters of conduct, such as the topic of this thread, and our citing of verses and making arguments about it, get askew, go wrong, unless we thoughtfully place them within the larger framework of God's purposes, plans, and character as the Bible sets these things forth.

Our thinking should be framed in Biblical understanding of God's plans.
Our larger purpose is to live in God's love and goodness. As the Westminster Shorter Catechism (Q. 1) (I think) puts it: Man's chief end is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Sensible discussions of all we are and all we do must take place in this Biblical context. And in that context, the context of human life as set forth in the Scriptures, the constituting of humanity (in God's image) as male and female is a central part of our life as it must be understood. Sane discussion of matters s-xual, then, has to take place within that framework.

That's humanity as M & F; and also humanity as fallen
And further, the framework for sensible discussion of major life topics also includes the whole picture of the human story, that is, the drama of creation: not just that God made a good world, but also that because of the Fall the world we actually live in and our desires and perceptions and thoughts are distorted, and in need of redemption by God in Christ. The working-out of that in our lives -- though in principle it's a wonderful and joyful thing -- we in practice often find arduous and difficult (as Scripture warns us), as God works in our lives.

Arguments about "goodness" of "sexual desire" often commit fallacies.
So I'm unconvinced by an argument that goes like this: "God created s-xual desire. All that God created is good. Therefore our s-xual desires are basically good." The argument has many problems. It oversimplifies, leaving out the Fall. And simply as logic it is flawed in a way that classical (incl. medieval) logic warned carefully against: the central terms (words) which figure in the various premises and the conclusion ("create", "desire", "good") are used in ambiguous, and somewhat different, senses in the various sentences. The argument (syllogism) I stated in this paragraph, while not put in precisely these terms, is at the root of a lot of, I think most of, the mb'n-is-OK posts that have been prominent in this thread.

If by "s-xual desire is good" or "God created s-xual desire" one means only that the original plan and intent for human nature in creation had what we'd call "s-xual desire" as a component of it, then well and good; we're agreed on that, as far as it goes. But usually more is implied or assumed.

Conceptual pitfalls: talking of "desire" w/o fully considering the Fall
There are two big dangers or pitfalls here. (1) First, s-xual desire as we actually experience it is -- like other basic constituants of human life -- radically messed up and disordered as a result of the Fall. (A) Thus, people saying these sentences are apt to be including, without necessarily knowing it, something like "my s-xual desires" or "human s-xual desires, generally" perhaps, "are good as long as I express them subject to certain rules" That's quite different from the thought I agreed to in the paragraph above, for it suggests that if I feel desire for something, that desire is OK, not messed-up, not fundamentally disordered. It suggests "how can something that feels so right be wrong." (But that latter maxim is nonsense, from a Christian viewpoint: "there's a way which seems right to human beings, but whose end is death"; and "the path to life is narrow and difficult, and few find it.[Prov. 14:12, 16:25; Matt 7:13-14 f.; Luke 13:24 f.])

Joy within pilgrimage, versus placing one's hope on fulfilled desire
(B) Moreover, once this approach ("my desires are basically good, and can be my guide, so long as I obey a few rules") is adopted, the rules are continually whittled down. In this connection, we are inescapably children of our age and culture, and need to be very much aware that our intuitions -- about what the Biblical and Christian principles and contexts of action are -- are very much influenced and corrupted not just by natural (Fallen) human desire, but by the agressive hedonistic, individualistic, and anti-Biblical tenor of our current, increasingly depraved, society.

(C) It's not that "my basically good desires" are just fine, subject to a few little rules, but that OTOH the whole tendency of human nature is sinful, and OTOH and even more important that is not a basic sound perspective for my life. Rather, a basic sound and biblical perspective is that we are sinners saved by grace, who now live in the light of Christ's death for our sin and His resurrection. That is, we live in joyful hope, but in the midst of the fact that much of this life is going to be a "vale of tears" [Ps. 126, Ps. 84, etc.] or a "fiery trial" That is, "he who would come after me must deny himself, pick up his cross, and follow me" [Matt. 16:24, 10,38; Mark 8:34, 10:21; Luke 9:23, 14:27] -- although, in the end this is the path of joy, and his burden is easy and his yoke light . That is both because we follow the vocation of the Crucified Lord, seeking to bear burdens that people may be saved, and God glorified; and also because we must constantly put to death the unruly and sinful tendencies of our fallen human nature.

Conceptual pitfalls: the modern vocab. about "sex"
(2) (A) We need to take care lest a conceptual apparatus -- the modern way of talking -- which [i]seems simply to be talking about the subject matter at hand smuggles in various outlooks and assumptions which alter the whole tenor of the discussion. Specifically, the whole vocabulary and imagery of "s-x", "healthy s-xual desire", human beings "as inherently s-xual beings", "s-xuality" etc. is a misleading, non-biblical, mainly 20th century, mainly late 20th century, vocabulary of exaltation of sex and criticism of previous ages for allegedly being "repressive" or biased in various ways. Therefore this vocabulary and the ways of thinking associated with it are apt -- almost bound -- to mislead.

Whereas the Biblical approach emphasizes [i]faithful marital relationship
(B) The somewhat more indirect ways, of talking about sex in earlier eras were better IMO at placing the emphasis concerning these matters where it belonged: on relationship, faithfulness, family, duty, submission to God, mutual submission, modesty, and so on. The Biblical vocabulary makes very little or no mention of "s*x" -- not because it does not talk about these matters, for obviously they figure largely in the Bible's highly realistic treatment of human affairs, but rather because the way of talking instead emphasizes actual persons (male and female, man and wife) and healthy (or unhealthy) relationship, generally with discrete phrasing. The NT discussing (s-xual) desire is generally negative in tone: epithumeo and its cognates, in that connection (but not in other connections), generally get translated "lust". Not because the NT is negative toward sex, but because the emphasis is, as it should be, upon relationship: specifically upon faithful marriage in the context of family of which sex is a proper and central constitutative part.

...................................Here's the main point

Human beings are meant to be centered upon God. While everything depends for its mere existence upon God, the human dependence upon God is deeper, more intimate, and more voluntary. Therefore, when we turned from God to our own ways, our own knowledge, our own self-definition, our own self-exultation (Gen 3), the whole structure of our thought and will got wrecked, messed-up, radically disordered, inverted. Whereas what is higher, and full of light, is meant to rule that which is lower (Gen 1:15-16, 2:19-20; Ps. 136:5-9; Prov. 16:32; Rom 12:1-2; II Cor. 10:5, etc.), the human Fall led to rebellion and disorder at every level, alientation of human beings from one another, nature, self, and God. The capacities of the human being are meant to subserve the whole person, and be under our captaincy as we places ourselves under the headship of God in Christ; but in our mutinous state, they start to act autonomously: rather than being a well-working whole the human being falls apart into mutinous constituant pieces.

S*x and s*xual desire are meant to be part of God's plan of marriage and family, and in turn indicative of His own love and Fatherhood and intimate embrace of us. [Cf. Matt 19:4, Mark 10:6, I John 4:8, 16; Eph. 3:14-15; Gen. 1:26-27, 1:31, 2:18 2:20-23; John 13-17, esp. 15:9, and Father and marriage language and imagery throughout the Bible, esp. NT.] Ripping these matters apart from this natural context, which the Bible explicates and mandates, of course leads us (and our society and families) into sin, disorder, and confusion.

Vegeto
Jul 30th 2005, 08:35 PM
I think we can all see from fubajuba's frustration that this is a very difficult subject agree upon, even from a biblical standpoint. For every fubajuba that tries to convince others that any s3xual behavior is only for mariage, there is another that would be telling a fubajuba that s3x can only be used to concieve a child.

Fubajuba, I can see I have contributed to your frustration, so let me explain (if your are still here) what I meant by learning to make love.

The learned 'making love'

When a person is s3xu&lly stimulated, there is a 's3xu&l energy' due to chemical interactions and electrical signals in the body/mind. This energy in the 'lower centers' is fairly unrefined (perhaps unclean). S3xua&l energy builds up to a point of mental/physical overload until a release occurs in the form of powerful contractions known as an 0rg&sm. I think we can all agree to a certain extent that this is how s3x happens in men, and there is a similar response (but also different) in women.

Here is the tricky part to explain. When one 0rg&sms, this energy is lost, and other enegies in the body and spirit are wasted on 0rg&sm as well. (This is not to God's glory no matter how much you love the person you are doing this with.) Durring the time between the start of s3x and the 'grand finally', the s3xu&l energy builds up. This energy is raw, unrefined, and very simple in nature. Through a process, which has many levels of mastery, those enrgies can be drawn into the 'higher centers' and refined into a 'spiritual energy' that can be exchanged with your partners energy and used to love.

Think of it like this, in Tai Chi, when an opponent punches at you, you absorb the energy of your opponent's attack, which makes you stronger. The technique described above does just that. When sexual energy attacks you, you absorb the attack, making your love stronger. This cannot be done by any selfish fleshy pursuit. And to perfect it, it must be practiced, or you will spill your seed and waste your energy and drain your spirit. The ONLY way to master this is to establish your relationship with God through Christ, but the technique itself must be learned and understood to be utilized for the glory of God. This is not natural because of our sinful state, and our decent into aging from that sinful state (our curse of mortality). Unless your are going to conceive a child, spilling your seed will drain some of your spirit no matter how much you love the person you are with, and it doesn't matter that you are married, (as far as I know.)

I don't know how to explain it much further, it takes years to learn. It can be learned with a partner, but most find the temptation to spill their seed too strong to begin with a partner, so m&sterbat1on is used as a stepping stone for the greater challenge that lies ahead.

If you can perform all of the energy conversions without ever practicing, (once you are married), then you are lucky. Most people will just spill their seed, which most people seem to be fine with. I don't call that love making though. I just call that having s3x with someone you love.

In conclusion, making love is the act of taking raw sexual energy and transforming it into loving energy. Hence the term "'making' love".

:giveup: I can't explain any furthur.

star1974
Aug 2nd 2005, 03:29 AM
** No ladies allowed to post in this forum **

Steve M
Aug 4th 2005, 03:37 AM
I was reading in 1 Corinthians the other day and saw something that caught my eye (and my mind).

Paul said 'take no provision for the body and the lusts thereof.'

One thing that has been said here (several times, by several people) is that if they do not mast* then they will have problems with tension later on; that the relief helps them to remain pure.

And I have to admit that this a line of thought I have used myself.

But Paul seems to be saying here that planning ahead like this to alleviate the tension ought not to be done; don't plan how to relieve your body's lusts, he said.

I'd be interested in hearing some other takes on this verse and whether you guys think it applies in this case.

dmwessel
Aug 4th 2005, 04:02 AM
It seems strange to me that so many people struggle with this same issue which shows me it is a 'common' malady among human beings, Christians included. However, the guilt it causes far overshadows the crime and I am inclined to believe that Jesus would not want to cause all that guilt.

whitestone
Aug 4th 2005, 09:31 AM
I was reading in 1 Corinthians the other day and saw something that caught my eye (and my mind).

Paul said 'take no provision for the body and the lusts thereof.'
Do you mean ROMANS?

From Romans 13:14 -- 'make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.'

Just want to check context before I reply.
Thanks!
Eric %^)
:hug:

Steve M
Aug 4th 2005, 12:55 PM
Do you mean ROMANS?

From Romans 13:14 -- 'make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.'

Just want to check context before I reply.
Thanks!
Eric %^)
:hug:
B'doh! Brain freeze!

That's the one. And considering I'm currently reading through Romans, not Corinthians (that was last month!) you'd think I'd know the difference!

Thanks for the reality check.

whitestone
Aug 4th 2005, 01:24 PM
Hi Steve M,

I mixup references a lot, so I may get you lost looking too some times!
Paul seems to be saying here that planning ahead like this to alleviate the tension ought not to be done; don't plan how to relieve your body's lusts The 'flesh' does not mean 'body' in this context, but
it hearkens to the comparison of walking in the flesh and walking in the spirit.

Your 'body' does not lust but your reaction to it's physical urges may be a temptation.
Lust is in the heart. My body may have an urge to sleep, but
that does not mean sleeping is necessarily lustful.

I think that 'provision for the flesh' could very well mean anything which
you know tempts you to sin(including lust).
I'd be interested in hearing some other takes on this verse and whether you guys think it applies in this case. One way I think this could apply is, for EXAMPLE only--
If one is tempted to lust when he sees pornography,
then he should not make it readily accessible, etc.
If one has such a temptation and he keeps a porn video under his bed,
that would seem to be making provision for the flesh.

Planning is not ruled out, but for the other side of the coin,
to ward off temptations of the flesh.
Like inviting Chritian brothers to help be accountability partners, etc.
Again, for EXAMPLE only --
If one knows he has an addition(weaknes to temptation) in certain areas, like porn,
then he could invite Christian brothers to feel free to come anytime and
inspect his house/car/computer/etc.
I not suggesting that would solve the problem with the flesh, but
it is ..... a step.

In Christ,
Eric %^)
:hug:

Toolman
Aug 5th 2005, 06:23 PM
I was reading in 1 Corinthians the other day and saw something that caught my eye (and my mind).

Paul said 'take no provision for the body and the lusts thereof.'

One thing that has been said here (several times, by several people) is that if they do not mast* then they will have problems with tension later on; that the relief helps them to remain pure.

And I have to admit that this a line of thought I have used myself.

But Paul seems to be saying here that planning ahead like this to alleviate the tension ought not to be done; don't plan how to relieve your body's lusts, he said.

I'd be interested in hearing some other takes on this verse and whether you guys think it applies in this case.

Steve,

I agree with the Whitestoner here in that when scripture speaks of the "flesh" I don't think it is speaking of the physical body but the sin nature.

When Paul speaks of the physical body he uses the greek word soma (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4983&version=kjv).

When speaking of the flesh he uses the greek word sarx (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4561&version=kjv).

The danger here is the gnostic idea that the material world (including the physical body) is "evil" and that only the "spirit" is "good". This can lead to all manner of improper doctrine IMO.

God came to redeem all of man, his spirit, soul and body. At the resurrection the whole man will be redeemed when corruption puts on incorruption and mortal puts on immortality. Our physical bodies will be changed but they will still be physical bodies, like Christ's resurrected body. Not an ethereal spirit but a redeemed human.

So I don't think Paul's warning concerns the physical body but the carnal nature within all of us. That is how I see it anyhoo.

ma harden
Sep 4th 2007, 08:33 PM
I just want to say that my husband and I had a long "dry" spell in our love life until I MB. Now he reaps the benefits of my longing for him. He and I are both happier and I never ever think unpure thoughts, just the pleasure of the moment. You have to keep all things in perspective. Why, how, how often, where and so forth. It is more of a sin to keep myself from my husband. He could turn to another woman.

amazzin
Sep 4th 2007, 08:34 PM
I just want to say that my husband and I had a long "dry" spell in our love life until I MB. Now he reaps the benefits of my longing for him. He and I are both happier and I never ever think unpure thoughts, just the pleasure of the moment. You have to keep all things in perspective. Why, how, how often, where and so forth. It is more of a sin to keep myself from my husband. He could turn to another woman.

:saint: WOMEN INTRUDER ALERT,...WOMEN INTRUDER ALERT !!! :rofl: