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View Full Version : Understanding John 8:36 - Source of Freedom



Nick
Jun 1st 2013, 11:02 PM
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.” (John 8:34-38, ESV)

If the Son sets you free - the key word being "if". This passage reveals to us that the gift of grace is itself not an attribute of our unregenerate natures. Furthermore Paul describes mankind’s state as prisoners who are bound with chains of sin, that is, until we are set free by the Holy Spirit. Therefore one must conclude that those who continue to assert that man has free choice use a different expression than the Holy Spirit. For what Christian would dare to claim that we serve the righteousness of God by free choice which is innate within us, but not through the Holy Spirit which is given to us. For the Scripture declares that “...no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:3)."

Thoughts?

luigi
Jun 2nd 2013, 01:03 AM
Hello Nick,

I think the being bound with chains may have to do with being tied to the world and its lusts (i.e., homes, cars, fashion, and whatever else individuals strive for that they would find impossible to release).
In which case anyone who chooses God (by their own free will), the Son has the capacity to set free from the world and its lusts through the Holy Spirits power.

Curtis
Jun 2nd 2013, 02:50 AM
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.” (John 8:34-38, ESV)

If the Son sets you free - the key word being "if". This passage reveals to us that the gift of grace is itself not an attribute of our unregenerate natures. Furthermore Paul describes mankind’s state as prisoners who are bound with chains of sin, that is, until we are set free by the Holy Spirit. Therefore one must conclude that those who continue to assert that man has free choice use a different expression than the Holy Spirit. For what Christian would dare to claim that we serve the righteousness of God by free choice which is innate within us, but not through the Holy Spirit which is given to us. For the Scripture declares that “...no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:3)."

Thoughts?

Man left in his own sinful condition would never seek or even want God. If it was not for the Lord revealing him self unto sinful man he would be forever lost. Thank God for mercy!!

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

True freedom will never be found in those who believe God is going to do something good for min in the future, because man will always be anxious about weather he had some kind of hidden sins that maybe he had forgotten to confess. You find a born again Christian who knows, believes in what God has already given, and done for him from the beginning, that person will be ecstatic, full of joy unspeakable, and full of Glory, because he is already enjoying his inheritance today.

Nick
Jun 2nd 2013, 04:22 AM
John Calvin stated that there are four expressions regarding the will which differ from one another:

“namely that the will is free, bound, self-determined, or coerced. People generally understand a free will to be one which has in its power to choose good or evil [many evangelicals believe this]…[But] There can be no such thing as a coerced will, since the two ideas are contradictory. But our responsibility as teachers is to say what it means, so that it may be understood what coercion is. Therefore we describe [as coerced] the will which does not incline this way or that of its own accord or by an internal movement of decision, but is forcibly driven by an external impulse. We say that it is self-determined when of itself it directs itself in the direction in which it is led, when it is not taken by force or dragged unwillingly. A bound will, finally, is one which because of its corruptness is held captive under the authority of its evil desires, so that it can choose nothing but evil, even if it does so of its own accord and gladly, without being driven by any external impulse. 


According to these definitions we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man’s innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined. (John Calvin, BLW pp 69, 70)

Walls
Jun 2nd 2013, 05:58 AM
John Calvin stated that there are four expressions regarding the will which differ from one another:

“namely that the will is free, bound, self-determined, or coerced. People generally understand a free will to be one which has in its power to choose good or evil [many evangelicals believe this]…[But] There can be no such thing as a coerced will, since the two ideas are contradictory. But our responsibility as teachers is to say what it means, so that it may be understood what coercion is. Therefore we describe [as coerced] the will which does not incline this way or that of its own accord or by an internal movement of decision, but is forcibly driven by an external impulse. We say that it is self-determined when of itself it directs itself in the direction in which it is led, when it is not taken by force or dragged unwillingly. A bound will, finally, is one which because of its corruptness is held captive under the authority of its evil desires, so that it can choose nothing but evil, even if it does so of its own accord and gladly, without being driven by any external impulse. 


According to these definitions we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man’s innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined. (John Calvin, BLW pp 69, 70)

Well said Nick (or shall I say brother Calvin), but you have yet to answer your own question. We wait in anticipation. The question, and answer, is crucial, for we all know that we, and other Christians still sin.

ProDeo
Jun 2nd 2013, 06:12 AM
Lev 22:14 - And if anyone eats of a holy thing unintentionally, he shall add the fifth of its value to it and give the holy thing to the priest. 15 They shall not profane the holy things of the people of Israel, which they contribute to the LORD, 16 and so cause them to bear iniquity and guilt, by eating their holy things: for I am the LORD who sanctifies them.” 17 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 18 “Speak to Aaron and his sons and all the people of Israel and say to them, When any one of the house of Israel or of the sojourners in Israel presents a burnt offering as his offering, for any of their vows or freewill offerings that they offer to the LORD,

Ps 119:103 - ​​​​​​​​How sweet are your words to my taste, ​​​​​​​sweeter than honey to my mouth! ​​​ 104 ​​​​​​​​Through your precepts I get understanding; ​​​​​​​therefore I hate every false way. ​​​ 105 ​​​​​​​​Your word is a lamp to my feet ​​​​​​​and a light to my path. ​​​ 106 ​​​​​​​​I have sworn an oath and confirmed it, ​​​​​​​to keep your righteous rules. ​​​ 107 ​​​​​​​​I am severely afflicted; ​​​​​​​give me life, O LORD, according to your word! ​​​ 108 ​​​​​​​​Accept my freewill offerings of praise, O LORD, ​​​​​​​and teach me your rules. ​​​

John 10:17 - Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

2 Chr 17:16 - And next him [was] Amasiah the son of Zichri, who willingly offered himself unto the LORD;

Nick
Jun 2nd 2013, 03:22 PM
Well said Nick (or shall I say brother Calvin), but you have yet to answer your own question. We wait in anticipation. The question, and answer, is crucial, for we all know that we, and other Christians still sin.

The difference between coercion and necessity is really where the misunderstandings among evangelicals have come about. But even after all this there is still confusion. Lets attempt to end it here. Some erroneously say that there can be no sin where there is necessity – these are the ones who defend free choice against the grace of God. The holdouts should recognize that this argument does not hold water because God Himself is good of necessity and we praise Him for the fact that He can only be good. The opponents would like us to believe that being voluntary is wholly inconsistent with necessity but here it is shown that the two are combined together in the nature of God and his goodness. And consider that you yourself are longing for the Day when we will be transformed into our resurrected bodies in glory as we stand upon the earth. At that time there will be no more tears, death or sin. So then we will be sinless of necessity because of our nature.

God’s commands do not take into consideration our natural strength for in the gospel itself He gives what He commands – and does so for the purpose of revealing that by ourselves we are helpless. (Augustine). Whenever we proclaim the word of the gospel to men, it is without question that when someone hears so as to believe, it is a gift wrought by God in him. It is God’s work to fulfill through grace what He commands by the Law (Calvin).

episkopos
Jun 2nd 2013, 03:38 PM
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.” (John 8:34-38, ESV)
Truly Jesus Christ is a stumblingblock to the churches erected in His name!

Isa_8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Walls
Jun 2nd 2013, 04:02 PM
The difference between coercion and necessity is really where the misunderstandings among evangelicals have come about. But even after all this there is still confusion. Lets attempt to end it here. Some erroneously say that there can be no sin where there is necessity – these are the ones who defend free choice against the grace of God. The holdouts should recognize that this argument does not hold water because God Himself is good of necessity and we praise Him for the fact that He can only be good. The opponents would like us to believe that being voluntary is wholly inconsistent with necessity but here it is shown that the two are combined together in the nature of God and his goodness. And consider that you yourself are longing for the Day when we will be transformed into our resurrected bodies in glory as we stand upon the earth. At that time there will be no more tears, death or sin. So then we will be sinless of necessity because of our nature.

God’s commands do not take into consideration our natural strength for in the gospel itself He gives what He commands – and does so for the purpose of revealing that by ourselves we are helpless. (Augustine). Whenever we proclaim the word of the gospel to men, it is without question that when someone hears so as to believe, it is a gift wrought by God in him. It is God’s work to fulfill through grace what He commands by the Law (Calvin).

Again, well said, but you did not use the word "freedom" once, and you have not given the "Source" of that freedom either. We also need to know why Paul, in Romans Chapter 7, long after his conversion, was still slave to sin - or was he?

Nick
Jun 2nd 2013, 05:15 PM
Again, well said, but you did not use the word "freedom" once, and you have not given the "Source" of that freedom either. We also need to know why Paul, in Romans Chapter 7, long after his conversion, was still slave to sin - or was he?

This morning's study was on James 1:22-25 "But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing."

In James, the “law” and the “word” are two different ways of describing the same reality. Earlier, the “word of truth” (1:18) is the gospel of Christ, and the “law” here refers to the OT law as it has been interpreted and fulfilled in Christ. Though the OT law was “holy and righteous and good” (Rom. 7:12), it had no power by itself to enable sinful people to conform to it. Thus, the OT law did not liberate God’s people but enslaved them, as Paul taught (Gal. 3:10–4:7; cf. Rom. 2:1–3:20; 5:20; 6:14–15; 7:1–25). But the law is one of “liberty” when it comes along with the word of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit to change hearts.

In the OT sometimes God would discipline Israel by telling them their crops would fail even though they labored to sow seed. This is proof that all that we do in this world such as planting crops requires the prior blessing of God if it is to be fruitful. Similarly Paul uses an agricultural metaphor when speaking of casting the seed of the gospel. He says, “I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth.” This simply means that people need to hear the gospel in order to be saved, but we can preach till we a blue in the face and nothing will take root unless the Holy Spirit sovereignly applies that word to the heart that one might hear.

Even though it is common knowledge among Christians that they are saved by grace, why is it in our moralizing crusades do we easily fall into the trap of believing ourselves better or more moral than the average pagan? The two are mutually exclusive. The sins of both left and right, of Christian and Pagan, stem from the belief in the autonomy of man, or quite simply, the belief in free will, that we can do any good apart from the prior blessing of God. Otherwise couldn’t we say, God I am so glad I am not like other men ... when you distributed grace equally among men, I took hold of it and not others. I had the wisdom to believe but my neighbor did not.” Away with such boasting, which the cause of so much self-righteousness among Christians. How easy it is to fall into the trap of believing that it was something other than the grace of Christ that God is pleased by in us. Where is the sufficiency of the cross in this? To believe that faith is self-produced, innately present in our unregenerate fallen nature is a deeply flawed unbiblical theology. And finally if all men receive equal grace to choose Christ, then what need of there is prayer? If everyone already has as much grace as they are going to get prior to salvation, then what more can God do to help them? It would make prayer for the salvation of others irrelevant and useless since such a theology must lead one to conclude that man has to make has own decision apart from the work of the Spirit.

Curtis
Jun 2nd 2013, 08:27 PM
This morning's study was on James 1:22-25 "But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing."

In James, the “law” and the “word” are two different ways of describing the same reality. Earlier, the “word of truth” (1:18) is the gospel of Christ, and the “law” here refers to the OT law as it has been interpreted and fulfilled in Christ. Though the OT law was “holy and righteous and good” (Rom. 7:12), it had no power by itself to enable sinful people to conform to it. Thus, the OT law did not liberate God’s people but enslaved them, as Paul taught (Gal. 3:10–4:7; cf. Rom. 2:1–3:20; 5:20; 6:14–15; 7:1–25). But the law is one of “liberty” when it comes along with the word of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit to change hearts.

In the OT sometimes God would discipline Israel by telling them their crops would fail even though they labored to sow seed. This is proof that all that we do in this world such as planting crops requires the prior blessing of God if it is to be fruitful. Similarly Paul uses an agricultural metaphor when speaking of casting the seed of the gospel. He says, “I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth.” This simply means that people need to hear the gospel in order to be saved, but we can preach till we a blue in the face and nothing will take root unless the Holy Spirit sovereignly applies that word to the heart that one might hear.

Even though it is common knowledge among Christians that they are saved by grace, why is it in our moralizing crusades do we easily fall into the trap of believing ourselves better or more moral than the average pagan? The two are mutually exclusive. The sins of both left and right, of Christian and Pagan, stem from the belief in the autonomy of man, or quite simply, the belief in free will, that we can do any good apart from the prior blessing of God. Otherwise couldn’t we say, God I am so glad I am not like other men ... when you distributed grace equally among men, I took hold of it and not others. I had the wisdom to believe but my neighbor did not.” Away with such boasting, which the cause of so much self-righteousness among Christians. How easy it is to fall into the trap of believing that it was something other than the grace of Christ that God is pleased by in us. Where is the sufficiency of the cross in this? To believe that faith is self-produced, innately present in our unregenerate fallen nature is a deeply flawed unbiblical theology. And finally if all men receive equal grace to choose Christ, then what need of there is prayer? If everyone already has as much grace as they are going to get prior to salvation, then what more can God do to help them? It would make prayer for the salvation of others irrelevant and useless since such a theology must lead one to conclude that man has to make has own decision apart from the work of the Spirit.

That will always be debated, weather man chooses to be saved or did God predesignate our lives. It all depends on our perspective of how we see things. Most believers see themselves from an earthly perspective view, meaning they heard the Gospel, and then decided to receive Jesus as their savior. This is a true statement, but if we see things from God's perspective then we did not do anything as God choose us we did not choose him. Since we live in both worlds at the same time, the physical and the spiritual, we need to choose to see things from our heavenly view. When I read the Bible there are places were the Spirit of God shows us things from a earthly view, and there are places were the Spirit of God shows us from the eternal view. for instance....

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


This is speaking from a earthly view, we can not approach God in this current form (physical body) Yet we also find in scripture this...

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

In our re birthed human spirit we are living and dwelling inside of Christ. We are inside the Glory of God looking out, not trying to see it externally. Two different ways of seeing the physical, and the spiritual Kingdom of God. They are both true. and right. The Word does tell us not to look at the things seen, but the things not seen. It's in the unseen Kingdom (which can be clearly seen by faith) that we have true freedom. Not in the things that going to happen some day, which is true, but the things that have already happened in the Heavens, which is also true. My salvation was God designed from eternity, I did not do anything to get. It was all according to His purpose that was given unto me before the world began. That is seeing from God's perspective.

Nick
Jun 2nd 2013, 10:48 PM
Again, well said, but you did not use the word "freedom" once, and you have not given the "Source" of that freedom either. We also need to know why Paul, in Romans Chapter 7, long after his conversion, was still slave to sin - or was he?

I found this snippet written by Matt Skinner interesting on the topic of "freedom" relative to John 8:36...

What Is This "Freedom"?
Only in this passage does "freedom" language appear in John. Jesus' mention of freedom offends his hearers, who insist they have always enjoyed freedom (even though, ironically, Jesus and his Jewish contemporaries live under Roman rule). But Jesus contends that without him they live as slaves. First, they are enslaved to sin, living as oppressed people. Second, this slavery relegates them to inferior status; because of it they cannot claim a permanent place or identity in God's family. Jesus then shifts his household metaphor to suggest that, as "Son," only he can ensure true freedom and secure membership in God's family.

The banal repetition of "freedom" in American political rhetoric makes it difficult to distinguish among various kinds of freedoms. Nothing in this passage envisions modern concepts of personal liberties; the principal focus is on freedom from sin's clutches. Still, this passage finds new ways of offending modern audiences. To say Jesus brings freedom implies that people live in slavery, and we do not like to hear that we are enslaved in any way. So much of our modern lives tries to reassure us that we are, or should be, free from any constraints. We aspire to self-realization, self-actualization, self-sufficiency. We perpetuate myths that we are at the mercy of no forces that we cannot control. These are not necessarily the same thing as "sin," but they point up ways in which we resist God and really need a liberator.

M_Wm_Ferguson_MTh
Jun 2nd 2013, 11:23 PM
So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed..
.....
Thoughts?This verse is part of a comparison of the hurtful deeds (actions, works) of Abraham's children with the helpful Word of Jesus' Father in heaven (see John 8:31-41). Because the persons to whom he spoke were of Abraham's seed, Jesus explained, they were sinners due to the faith-based cruelties of themselves, which they learned from their ancestors, and then faith-fully passed on to their children as instructed by their religious leaders (8:33-35). Yet, they could be exempted from spiritual death if they would learn to follow and share his Father's Word of life that Jesus came to demonstrate and teach (8:36).

In this explanation, Jesus made a sharp distinction between the commandments and dictates of YHVH (Jehovah), via Moses and the Old testament prophets, and the Word of his Father in heaven (8:37-38). Jesus also disclaimed any relationship to both Jehovah or Abraham by pointing out that Abraham was their spiritual Father, not his (8:38).

episkopos
Jun 3rd 2013, 12:39 AM
This verse is part of a comparison of the hurtful deeds (actions, works) of Abraham's children with the helpful Word of Jesus' Father in heaven (see John 8:31-41). Because the persons to whom he spoke were of Abraham's seed, Jesus explained, they were sinners due to the faith-based cruelties of themselves, which they learned from their ancestors, and then faith-fully passed on to their children as instructed by their religious leaders (8:33-35). Yet, they could be exempted from spiritual death if they would learn to follow and share his Father's Word of life that Jesus came to demonstrate and teach (8:36).

In this explanation, Jesus made a sharp distinction between the commandments and dictates of YHVH (Jehovah), via Moses and the Old testament prophets, and the Word of his Father in heaven (8:37-38). Jesus also disclaimed any relationship to both Jehovah or Abraham by pointing out that Abraham was their spiritual Father, not his (8:38).

Is this a demiurge angle?

M_Wm_Ferguson_MTh
Jun 3rd 2013, 11:54 AM
Is this a demiurge angle?Not at all. Conclusions regarding Jesus' explanation in John 8:31-41 and the activities/doctrine of the Zoroastrian deity known as Demiurge might be drawn, but were not intended in my response. The Gospels can adequately speak for themselves without the aid of the Persian (Iranian) teachings of Zoroaster.

episkopos
Jun 3rd 2013, 12:00 PM
Not at all. Conclusions regarding Jesus' explanation in John 8:31-41 and the activities/doctrine of the Zoroastrian deity known as Demiurge might be drawn, but were not intended in my response. The Gospels can adequately speak for themselves without the aid of the Persian (Iranian) teachings of Zoroaster.

I should hope so!


Jesus also disclaimed any relationship to both Jehovah or Abraham by pointing out that Abraham was their spiritual Father, not his (8:38).

Now this needs some more explaining. How could Jesus disclaim any relationship with the One whom He called Father?

M_Wm_Ferguson_MTh
Jun 3rd 2013, 01:16 PM
I should hope so!Really? Care to share why you "should hope so"?


How could Jesus disclaim any relationship with the One whom He called Father?Why should Jesus' words seen at John 8:38-55 need more explaining? Jesus explained this in terms that would have been clear to the people trying, at that time, to kill him. Please review that passage, then ask yourself:
In the light of John 8:31-55, and if I could ask Jesus to explain what he meant by (1) the term "my Father," and (2) the differences he saw between his Father's Word and the instructions of Moses and the OT prophets then taught in the synagogues, what might he say?

episkopos
Jun 3rd 2013, 01:34 PM
Really? Care to share why you "should hope so"?

Love hopeth all things!



Why should Jesus' words seen at John 8:38-55 need more explaining? Jesus explained this in terms that would have been clear to the people trying, at that time, to kill him. Please review that passage, then ask yourself:

This is a discussion forum. What seems obvious to one person may not be so for the other...and vice versa. So we show where we are coming from by HOW and WHAT we say.

M_Wm_Ferguson_MTh
Jun 3rd 2013, 02:47 PM
This is a discussion forum.... we show where we are coming from by HOW and WHAT we say.I stipulate that "HOW and WHAT" are only two (2) of the rudimentary elements which should be carefully considered by every poster. Nevertheless, the "HOW and WHAT" of my earlier postings should be self-explanatory after a minimal evaluation of the WHO, WHEN, WHERE, and WHY of John 8:31-55. I see no reason--and there is likely insufficient storage space on this forum's server--for me to further elaborate upon the explanation attributed to Jesus in that passage. There are numerous Bible commentaries available both commercially and online which do that.

However, I'm willing to consider WHY you believe further explanation of that passage is needed, and WHAT is causing you to want it. :)

episkopos
Jun 3rd 2013, 02:52 PM
I stipulate that "HOW and WHAT" are only two (2) of the rudimentary elements which should be carefully considered by every poster. Nevertheless, the "HOW and WHAT" of my earlier postings should be self-explanatory after a minimal evaluation of the WHO, WHEN, WHERE, and WHY of John 8:31-55. I see no reason for me to further elaborate upon the explanation attributed to Jesus in that passage. There are numerous Bible commentaries available both commercially and online which do that.

However, I'm willing to consider WHY you believe further explanation of that passage is needed, and WHAT is causing you to want it. :)

If we explore the causative reflectives of the inherent capabilities of cogent thought in any premise then we would have to surmise that the extrapolation of synthesis in the syntax of exegitical enumerations would have to be inversely proportional to the influx of deductive reasonings!

RabbiKnife
Jun 3rd 2013, 02:56 PM
And whose wife shall she be in the resurrection?

M_Wm_Ferguson_MTh
Jun 3rd 2013, 03:01 PM
If we explore the causative reflectives of the inherent capabilities of cogent thought in any premise then we would have to surmise that the extrapolation of synthesis in the syntax of exegitical enumerations would have to be inversely proportional to the influx of deductive reasonings!:o Ha! What you said! :lol:

Still, I see no reasonable need for further enumerations, exegetical or otherwise. If you haven't yet done so, please review the cited passage and draw your own conclusion about what Jesus and/or I said.

episkopos
Jun 3rd 2013, 05:01 PM
And whose wife shall she be in the resurrection?

LOL.................

episkopos
Jun 3rd 2013, 05:15 PM
:o Ha! What you said! :lol:

Still, I see no reasonable need for further enumerations, exegetical or otherwise. If you haven't yet done so, please review the cited passage and draw your own conclusion about what Jesus and/or I said.

I'm not trying to be an exegetical reactionary...just trying to understand things in an intelligible way!

Matt25 Brother
Jun 4th 2013, 03:44 AM
If we explore the causative reflectives of the inherent capabilities of cogent thought in any premise then we would have to surmise that the extrapolation of synthesis in the syntax of exegitical enumerations would have to be inversely proportional to the influx of deductive reasoningsAcademic doublespeak will get you a grant-in-aid for research, but it won't win any arguments on these forums. :lol:

episkopos
Jun 4th 2013, 12:07 PM
Academic doublespeak will get you a grant-in-aid for research, but it won't win any arguments on these forums. :lol:

The opposite is true unfortunately. People can only condemn you if they actually understand what you are saying. :)

Gadgeteer
Jun 6th 2013, 06:08 AM
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.” (John 8:34-38, ESV)

If the Son sets you free - the key word being "if". This passage reveals to us that the gift of grace is itself not an attribute of our unregenerate natures. Furthermore Paul describes mankind’s state as prisoners who are bound with chains of sin, that is, until we are set free by the Holy Spirit. Therefore one must conclude that those who continue to assert that man has free choice use a different expression than the Holy Spirit. For what Christian would dare to claim that we serve the righteousness of God by free choice which is innate within us, but not through the Holy Spirit which is given to us. For the Scripture declares that “...no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:3)."

Thoughts?

Question --- Rom6:17 says that THOUGH we were slaves to sin, we became obedient from the heart and ...enslaved to righteousness (enslaved to God, verse22). So how does an ENSLAVED-TO-SIN heart, become obedient and enslaved to righteousness? We cannot deny that "enslaved-to-righteousness" is subordinate to "obedient-from-the-heart"; how does a sinful heart become obedient?

"He is the source of salvation [b]to ALL WHO obey Him." Heb5:9
Why doesn't it say "they obey, for whom He ordains salvation"?

Nick
Jun 9th 2013, 04:23 AM
Question --- Rom6:17 says that THOUGH we were slaves to sin, we became obedient from the heart and ...enslaved to righteousness (enslaved to God, verse22). So how does an ENSLAVED-TO-SIN heart, become obedient and enslaved to righteousness? We cannot deny that "enslaved-to-righteousness" is subordinate to "obedient-from-the-heart"; how does a sinful heart become obedient?

"He is the source of salvation [B]to ALL WHO obey Him." Heb5:9
Why doesn't it say "they obey, for whom He ordains salvation"?

Only through God's grace. This grace enables us to live the righteous requirements of the Law by obedience to God's will (Rom 6:17). In the beginning of Romans, Paul tells of a righteousness that is received by faith outside of us, apart from us, in the Person and work of Christ.

With that in mind, take a look at Rom 5: 6-11 "For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation."

Unregenerate sinners are spiritually dead and incapable of doing anything to help themselves. At the right time in the above verse refers to the moment God had chosen Christ died for the ungodly (the unregenerate incapable of choosing Christ). God’s love for his own is unwavering because it is not based on how lovable we are, but on the constancy of his own character; God’s supreme act of love came when we were at our most undesirable.

episkopos
Jun 9th 2013, 12:51 PM
Only through God's grace. This grace enables us to live the righteous requirements of the Law by obedience to God's will (Rom 6:17). In the beginning of Romans, Paul tells of a righteousness that is received by faith outside of us, apart from us, in the Person and work of Christ.

With that in mind, take a look at Rom 5: 6-11 "For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation."

Unregenerate sinners are spiritually dead and incapable of doing anything to help themselves. At the right time in the above verse refers to the moment God had chosen Christ died for the ungodly (the unregenerate incapable of choosing Christ). God’s love for his own is unwavering because it is not based on how lovable we are, but on the constancy of his own character; God’s supreme act of love came when we were at our most undesirable.

Who supplies the willingness and the attitude of compliance to God's will?

Noeb
Jun 9th 2013, 02:21 PM
Man left in his own sinful condition would never seek or even want God.That's why we go to them! -Luke 10
Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

You say, 'yes, but then God has to enable them to hear and see'. Really?....where'd you get that idea?...it's not what Jesus said. -Luke 10
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
:wave:

Nick
Jun 9th 2013, 02:25 PM
Who supplies the willingness and the attitude of compliance to God's will?

God. The folks in AA have this one right when they say "pray for the willingness to be willing".

episkopos
Jun 9th 2013, 03:12 PM
God. The folks in AA have this one right when they say "pray for the willingness to be willing".

What is your responsibility?

Nick
Jun 9th 2013, 03:58 PM
What is your responsibility?

To act on what God prompts me to do.

episkopos
Jun 9th 2013, 04:00 PM
To act on what God prompts me to do.

Can't that begin from His word...or what a man speaks from the truth?

We supply the willingness and obedience...

Isa_1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

That YE means US...

Then...God does the rest!

Nick
Jun 9th 2013, 04:06 PM
Can't that begin from His word...or what a man speaks from the truth?

Ever attend a really good sermon and get fired up only to have it dissipate 30 minutes after the service? The prompting I'm talking about can be initiated many through many different venues or from none at all. One day there's a burning desire to seek and do God's will that wasn't there before. That's why regeneration precedes faith.

episkopos
Jun 9th 2013, 04:14 PM
Ever attend a really good sermon and get fired up only to have it dissipate 30 minutes after the service? The prompting I'm talking about can be initiated many through many different venues or from none at all. One day there's a burning desire to seek and do God's will that wasn't there before. That's why regeneration precedes faith.

Regeneration precedes the faith revealed in the NT. But faith seeks God for the answers before this. The answers from God come in the form of grace. AND a faith on a higher level. You are talking about this faith...the kind that is able to overcome. No one is born with the faith that overcomes. But we all have a measure of faith. Otherwise we could NOT be judged for unbelief. We all have enough faith to cry out to God. Have you ever heard..."there are no atheists in the foxholes?

Nick
Jun 9th 2013, 04:47 PM
Regeneration precedes the faith revealed in the NT. But faith seeks God for the answers before this. The answers from God come in the form of grace. AND a faith on a higher level. You are talking about this faith...the kind that is able to overcome. No one is born with the faith that overcomes. But we all have a measure of faith. Otherwise we could NOT be judged for unbelief. We all have enough faith to cry out to God. Have you ever heard..."there are no atheists in the foxholes?

Yes, and there were plenty of atheists in foxholes. There are people on their dying bed right now that still reject any concept of God. We may all have had a measure of faith but some become so hardened that whatever small amount of faith that was once there has been completely etched out by the trials of life.

episkopos
Jun 9th 2013, 04:52 PM
Yes, and there were plenty of atheists in foxholes. There are people on their dying bed right now that still reject any concept of God. We may all have had a measure of faith but some become so hardened that whatever small amount of faith that was once there has been completely etched out by the trials of life.

Exactly...hence they will be judged for their unbelief.

This condition also continues into our Christian walk...unbelief. Our faith in Christ is not limited to what men can do. We can do ALL things through Christ.

Nick
Jun 9th 2013, 09:07 PM
Exactly...hence they will be judged for their unbelief.

This condition also continues into our Christian walk...unbelief. Our faith in Christ is not limited to what men can do. We can do ALL things through Christ.

Context, context, context. Paul is encouraging believers to be content no matter what their present situation is while he sat in jail in Rome, likely awaiting execution. We can do "all things" meant "to be strong" or "to have strength" during both trails and prosperity. In other words, don't keep your eye off the ball. Many people interpret that verse to mean "the world is mine for the taking" or "I can accomplish anything" and they apply that to achievement and financial success in the material world.

Gadgeteer
Jun 10th 2013, 04:31 AM
Only through God's grace. This grace enables us to live the righteous requirements of the Law by obedience to God's will (Rom 6:17). In the beginning of Romans, Paul tells of a righteousness that is received by faith outside of us, apart from us, in the Person and work of Christ. But you just quoted a verse that says "THOUGH we were formerly slaves to sin we became obedient from the heart and enslaved to righteousness".

Can you explain how an ENSLAVED-TO-SIN heart becomes obedient towards righteousness?


With that in mind, take a look at Rom 5: 6-11 "For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation."This is mirrored in Eph2:2-8, where "WHEN we were dead in sins God made us alive by grace ...THROUGH FAITH".

When-dead, alive-through faith.
Faith-WHEN-dead, made-us-alive

"Dia pistis" --- dia, by means of. Not "made alive and GIVEN faith"; but "WHEN dead made alive BY MEANS OF faith".

Is there anything unclear in what Paul wrote?


Unregenerate sinners are spiritually dead and incapable of doing anything to help themselves. At the right time in the above verse refers to the moment God had chosen Christ died for the ungodly (the unregenerate incapable of choosing Christ). God’s love for his own is unwavering because it is not based on how lovable we are, but on the constancy of his own character; God’s supreme act of love came when we were at our most undesirable.

On the other thread (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/247545-Understanding-John-3-16?p=3005771#post3005771) I asked you about some specific verses (about 4). That post and this really should be answered; but can they, while holding to "predestined-salvation"?

episkopos
Jun 10th 2013, 01:40 PM
Context, context, context. Paul is encouraging believers to be content no matter what their present situation is while he sat in jail in Rome, likely awaiting execution. We can do "all things" meant "to be strong" or "to have strength" during both trails and prosperity. In other words, don't keep your eye off the ball. Many people interpret that verse to mean "the world is mine for the taking" or "I can accomplish anything" and they apply that to achievement and financial success in the material world.

I'm talking about walking as Jesus walked...or else as the holy saints of old!

Gadgeteer
Jun 10th 2013, 03:36 PM
Regeneration precedes the faith revealed in the NT. But faith seeks God for the answers before this. The answers from God come in the form of grace. AND a faith on a higher level. You are talking about this faith...the kind that is able to overcome. No one is born with the faith that overcomes. But we all have a measure of faith. Otherwise we could NOT be judged for unbelief. We all have enough faith to cry out to God. Have you ever heard..."there are no atheists in the foxholes?

Regeneration does not precede faith. Regeneration is by the received Spirit (Titus3:5-6); the Spirit is received after belief (Acts10:17).

Faith is our choice; Heb11:6, 1Pet1:9. God's position is responding TO faith --- Rom3:26.

These verses (and many others) are not accommodated in any "Predestined-Salvation" doctrine.

episkopos
Jun 10th 2013, 03:49 PM
Regeneration does not precede faith. Regeneration is by the received Spirit (Titus3:5-6); the Spirit is received after belief (Acts10:17).

Faith is our choice; Heb11:6, 1Pet1:9. God's position is responding TO faith --- Rom3:26.

These verses (and many others) are not accommodated in any "Predestined-Salvation" doctrine.


Does God reward doubt with regeneration? How can a kingdom stand that encourages disbelief?

Gadgeteer
Jun 10th 2013, 03:55 PM
Does God reward doubt with regeneration? How can a kingdom stand that encourages disbelief?

What do you mean "doubt/disbelief"? Belief receives the Spirit; the received Spirit brings regeneration.

Titus3:5-6 states we were saved by the washing of regeneration through the Spirit-whom-God-POURED on us through Jesus OUR Savior.

Clearly "poured" is an aspect of the GENERATING Spirit, not something that happens after regeneration.

And "poured" (Greek "ekcheo"), is after belief --- Acts10:45-47, 11:17...

Ordo Salutus:
1. Believe on Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior
2. Through that belief, receive the Spirit (Spirit is received/gifted/poured)
3. Through the POURED Spirit, comes regeneration


No one of "Predestined-Salvation" doctrine will engage Matt9:12-13; for whom did Jesus come? If regeneration comes BEFORE belief, then men would have to be regenerated in order TO believe in Jesus, and He could not have come for the "sick/sinners/unregenerated"!

Who did Jesus come for? The sick, the sinners, the unregenerated; who, through belief in Jesus then become regenerated. It's the only way Matt9:12-13 makes sense.

episkopos
Jun 10th 2013, 04:08 PM
What do you mean "doubt/disbelief"? Belief receives the Spirit; the received Spirit brings regeneration.

Titus3:5-6 states we were saved by the washing of regeneration through the Spirit-whom-God-POURED on us through Jesus OUR Savior.

Clearly "poured" is an aspect of the GENERATING Spirit, not something that happens after regeneration.

And "poured" (Greek "ekcheo"), is after belief --- Acts10:45-47, 11:17...

Ordo Salutus:
1. Believe on Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior
2. Through that belief, receive the Spirit (Spirit is received/gifted/poured)
3. Through the POURED Spirit, comes regeneration


No one of "Predestined-Salvation" doctrine will engage Matt9:12-13; for whom did Jesus come? If regeneration comes BEFORE belief, then men would have to be regenerated in order TO believe in Jesus, and He could not have come for the "sick/sinners/unregenerated"!

Who did Jesus come for? The sick, the sinners, the unregenerated; who, through belief in Jesus then become regenerated. It's the only way Matt9:12-13 makes sense.



You are missing a step and there fore an important distinction. Our little measure of faith turns to God...God hears our prayers and answers by regenerating us INTO A GREATER faith..From faith to FAITH. The Faith we receive AFTER regeneration is the NT faith that overcomes sin, the devil and the world.

Gadgeteer
Jun 10th 2013, 05:40 PM
You are missing a step and there fore an important distinction. Our little measure of faith turns to God...God hears our prayers and answers by regenerating us INTO A GREATER faith..So you perceive Rom12:3 as "God giving us SOME faith", and then we turn to God with MORE faith.

I don't perceive Rom12:3 says God gives us any faith at all; as we've discussed, it's just another occurrence of "Semitic View" (Anthropomorphism); just another way of saying "as much faith as each man HAS".

"Semitic View" has God hardening Pharaoh's heart (Ex10:1), when it was all Pharaoh hardening himself (Ex9:34); and the devil blinding men's eyes against belief (2Cor4:3-4), when really men close their OWN eyes (Matt13:15) and the veil over their hearts is removed AFTER turning-to-God/believing (2Cor3:16).


From faith to FAITH.That usage, according to the commentators, is "from faith-the-start, to faith-the-goal" --- from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith. The just shall live BY faith.


The Faith we receive AFTER regeneration is the NT faith that overcomes sin, the devil and the world.
Again, I don't see any faith given to us. There is a "spiritual gift of faith" Paul speaks of in 1Cor12:9, but that's given to one believer and not to another believer. May also be another "Semitic View".

"Faith" is fully our choice, and flows in direction from man-towards-God (God receiving faith FROM men), not from God to men. Verses like Rom3:26 are clear; God is just and justifer of he WHO has faith in Jesus.

episkopos
Jun 10th 2013, 06:06 PM
So you perceive Rom12:3 as "God giving us SOME faith", and then we turn to God with MORE faith.

Do a study on the faith OF Jesus. We receive the faith OF Christ at regeneration. That is how we can walk in the Spirit. No human faith can find the spiritual place where Jesus is.

Gadgeteer
Jun 10th 2013, 08:01 PM
Do a study on the faith OF Jesus. We receive the faith OF Christ at regeneration. That is how we can walk in the Spirit. No human faith can find the spiritual place where Jesus is.

I've heard that view; "Christ's faith GIVEN TO us". I don't see that in Scripture; it's faith IN Christ, not "of-that-He-directs-TO-us".

Saving-faith always flows in direction from man-towards-God; never from God-towards-man...

episkopos
Jun 10th 2013, 08:13 PM
I've heard that view; "Christ's faith GIVEN TO us". I don't see that in Scripture; it's faith IN Christ, not "of-that-He-directs-TO-us".

Saving-faith always flows in direction from man-towards-God; never from God-towards-man...



Then how can we walk exactly as Jesus walked? In our own measure of faith? Impossible. No man can stop sinning in his own faith and strength.

We must go from faith to Faith! From our little blind faith to His faith in the light that sees.

Gadgeteer
Jun 10th 2013, 10:29 PM
Then how can we walk exactly as Jesus walked? In our own measure of faith? Impossible. No man can stop sinning in his own faith and strength.

We must go from faith to Faith! From our little blind faith to His faith in the light that sees.

It's His power, through our faith. On Eph2:8 noted Greek scholar and Bible Commentator A.T.Robertson said "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."

Peter echoes this in places like 1:1:4-5; protected by the power of God (His!) through faith (ours!) for a salvation ready to be revealed in the end time. Then verse 9 says "receive as the OUTCOME OF FAITH salvation".

See also 2Tim1:12-14, God guards what we entrust to Him by faith, and we guard by the Spirit's power the treasure of eternal life that God entrusts to us...

episkopos
Jun 10th 2013, 10:40 PM
It's His power, through our faith. On Eph2:8 noted Greek scholar and Bible Commentator A.T.Robertson said "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."

Peter echoes this in places like 1:1:4-5; protected by the power of God (His!) through faith (ours!) for a salvation ready to be revealed in the end time. Then verse 9 says "receive as the OUTCOME OF FAITH salvation".

See also 2Tim1:12-14, God guards what we entrust to Him by faith, and we guard by the Spirit's power the treasure of eternal life that God entrusts to us...


This is only partly true...that statement I mean. There is also a gift of Faith...as a spiritual gift after regeneration. This gift allows one to walk in a miraculous way.

Of course we also exercise our own faith. At any time we may withdraw our faith...then everything stops.

But we do not control grace...God does.

It is like a man on a digger who pushes a ten pound lever that picks up 10 tons of dirt. So our faith pushes the lever...which is the faith of Christ so that the power (grace) picks up the dirt!

Noeb
Jun 11th 2013, 12:37 AM
This is only partly true...that statement I mean. There is also a gift of Faith...as a spiritual gift after regeneration. This gift allows one to walk in a miraculous way. :no:
15 characters

episkopos
Jun 11th 2013, 12:54 AM
:no:
15 characters

...in a non-miraculous way? :sad:

Gadgeteer
Jun 11th 2013, 01:37 AM
Then how can we walk exactly as Jesus walked? In our own measure of faith? Impossible. No man can stop sinning in his own faith and strength.

We must go from faith to Faith! From our little blind faith to His faith in the light that sees.

Our faith is in HIM. Many are the verses that speak of us "exploiting His power" --- but it's through our faith. See Rom8:12-14, and 2Tim1:12-14!

Gadgeteer
Jun 11th 2013, 01:40 AM
This is only partly true...that statement I mean. There is also a gift of Faith...as a spiritual gift after regeneration. This gift allows one to walk in a miraculous way. I don't see a "gift of faith" (outside of the arguable passage 1Cor12:9). Rom12:3 is an exhibit of "Semitic View".


Of course we also exercise our own faith. At any time we may withdraw our faith...then everything stops.Right; hence, "BUILD YOURSELVES in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God". (Jude20-21)


But we do not control grace...God does.Our control is in how we RECEIVE the abundance of Grace (Rom5:17), and how we dwell IN it.


It is like a man on a digger who pushes a ten pound lever that picks up 10 tons of dirt. So our faith pushes the lever...which is the faith of Christ so that the power (grace) picks up the dirt!

That seems to align with 2Tim1:12-14 --- doesn't it?

:-)

Noeb
Jun 11th 2013, 01:49 AM
...in a non-miraculous way? :sad:faith in Christ and him crucified allows us to walk in a miraculous way. That's it. The gift of faith is something else entirely.

episkopos
Jun 11th 2013, 03:25 AM
faith in Christ and him crucified allows us to walk in a miraculous way. That's it. The gift of faith is something else entirely.

If it's miraculous then it has to be a gift. No man is born with miraculous faculties.

Noeb
Jun 11th 2013, 04:06 AM
If it's miraculous then it has to be a gift. No man is born with miraculous faculties.
It is. He gave His life and crucified us with Him while we were yet sinners. I have been given all things because he crucified and raised me. We can now do what we could not do before because he crucified and raised us. Christ and him crucified (and raised). It's our faith (he gave us in our constitution) stirred by His love toward us and His promises. How many way would you like me to explain it?

episkopos
Jun 11th 2013, 10:55 AM
It is. He gave His life and crucified us with Him while we were yet sinners. I have been given all things because he crucified and raised me. We can now do what we could not do before because he crucified and raised us. Christ and him crucified (and raised). It's our faith (he gave us in our constitution) stirred by His love toward us and His promises. How many way would you like me to explain it?

Well if you have been given so much...then why not use it? Buy grace from the Lord and walk in victory!

watchinginawe
Jun 11th 2013, 12:06 PM
Regeneration does not precede faith. Regeneration is by the received Spirit (Titus3:5-6); the Spirit is received after belief (Acts10:17).

Faith is our choice; Heb11:6, 1Pet1:9. God's position is responding TO faith --- Rom3:26.

These verses (and many others) are not accommodated in any "Predestined-Salvation" doctrine.


It is. He gave His life and crucified us with Him while we were yet sinners. I have been given all things because he crucified and raised me. We can now do what we could not do before because he crucified and raised us. Christ and him crucified (and raised). It's our faith (he gave us in our constitution) stirred by His love toward us and His promises. How many way would you like me to explain it?

Gadge, I like Noeb's distinction as a tweak to what you are offering. It is God that goes (went) first in the benevolent unilateral (monergistic if you will, the sovereign working out of bringing forth salvation in human history) ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus and the fulfillment of the promise of the Holy Spirit. As Noeb offers from the Apostle Paul, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8). We simply had no say or will in the matter at all, it is a done deal. Because of this, OUR position is responding IN faith TO God by receiving the Gospel and His grace (synergism).

Gadgeteer
Jun 11th 2013, 02:23 PM
Gadge, I like Noeb's distinction as a tweak to what you are offering. It is God that goes (went) first in the benevolent unilateral (monergistic if you will, the sovereign working out of bringing forth salvation in human history) ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus and the fulfillment of the promise of the Holy Spirit. As Noeb offers from the Apostle Paul, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8). We simply had no say or will in the matter at all, it is a done deal. Because of this, OUR position is responding IN faith TO God by receiving the Gospel and His grace (synergism).

Hi, Watching. I agree with you. But --- that "dying for us", was NOT just us but also the WHOLE WORLD. 1Jn2:2 cannot have holos kosmos changed into only SOME.

So great was God's love for the WORLD that He sent the Son that WHOSOEVER believes be saved; not to CONDEMN the world but to SAVE the world. All who will believe.

There is no "exclusivity" in God's provision.

:-)

episkopos
Jun 11th 2013, 02:26 PM
Hi, Watching. I agree with you. But --- that "dying for us", was NOT just us but also the WHOLE WORLD. 1Jn2:2 cannot have holos kosmos changed into only SOME.

So great was God's love for the WORLD that He sent the Son that WHOSOEVER believes be saved; not to CONDEMN the world but to SAVE the world. All who will believe.

There is no "exclusivity" in God's provision.

:-)

While I support your last sentence wholeheartedly....I wonder if you are making the distinction here between what men can believe... in and of themselves...and what the new creation can do in Christ.

Gadgeteer
Jun 11th 2013, 03:29 PM
While I support your last sentence wholeheartedly....I wonder if you are making the distinction here between what men can believe... in and of themselves...and what the new creation can do in Christ.

Ahhhh, but you see --- no one ever SAID "in and of themselves". Scripture makes clear that ALL MEN are really and sincerely drawn to salvation. So that is where the power to overcome depravity comes from.

RE "new creation" --- even us-new-creations sin (1Jn1:8-9); in literally the same breath with "new creation" (2Cor5:17) is verse 20, BE reconciled to God. Hardly something you would say to someone for whom it was a "done deal".

Be reconciled; LAY aside the old sinful man PUT ON the new, BE renewed in your spirit.

"New creation" is something we have to abide in --- isn't it?

episkopos
Jun 11th 2013, 04:42 PM
Ahhhh, but you see --- no one ever SAID "in and of themselves". Scripture makes clear that ALL MEN are really and sincerely drawn to salvation. So that is where the power to overcome depravity comes from.

RE "new creation" --- even us-new-creations sin (1Jn1:8-9); in literally the same breath with "new creation" (2Cor5:17) is verse 20, BE reconciled to God. Hardly something you would say to someone for whom it was a "done deal".

Be reconciled; LAY aside the old sinful man PUT ON the new, BE renewed in your spirit.

"New creation" is something we have to abide in --- isn't it?

Yes...but not all are drawn to the faith in Christ. The bible says...Many are called...not all.

Gadgeteer
Jun 11th 2013, 06:33 PM
Yes...but not all are drawn to the faith in Christ. The bible says...Many are called...not all.

All are called, Epi. You're thinking of Matt22:14, "Many are called but few are chosen" --- in context, it's everyone in view.

Jesus said He would draw ALL MEN to Himself. He conspiciously used "helkuo-draw/drag", same as John6:44.

Look at Romans5:18-19 --- it's an [b]exact equality, SO THEN condemnation came to all, EVEN SO justification came to all. In no way can we accept "condemnation-came-to-all", but then deny the equality and make it "justiifcation-came-to-FEW".

In fact, the "word of faith" is put in every person's heart and mouth; Deut30:11-20 and Rom10:6-10. Everyone is drawn to where he/she can believe, Acts17:26-31.

There's no one who is excluded, not even those aboriginal peoples who lived in un-missionaried regions for millenia.

episkopos
Jun 11th 2013, 09:37 PM
All are called, Epi. You're thinking of Matt22:14, "Many are called but few are chosen" --- in context, it's everyone in view.

Jesus said He would draw ALL MEN to Himself. He conspiciously used "helkuo-draw/drag", same as John6:44.

Look at Romans5:18-19 --- it's an [b]exact equality, SO THEN condemnation came to all, EVEN SO justification came to all. In no way can we accept "condemnation-came-to-all", but then deny the equality and make it "justiifcation-came-to-FEW".

In fact, the "word of faith" is put in every person's heart and mouth; Deut30:11-20 and Rom10:6-10. Everyone is drawn to where he/she can believe, Acts17:26-31.

There's no one who is excluded, not even those aboriginal peoples who lived in un-missionaried regions for millenia.

Will the gospel really be preached to everyone in the world? Every single person (and every married person too)

Noeb
Jun 11th 2013, 11:09 PM
While I support your last sentence wholeheartedly....I wonder if you are making the distinction here between what men can believe... in and of themselves...and what the new creation can do in Christ.
Old Nature
body+spirit=soul (has the ability of faith)

New Nature
body+spirit-joined-Spirit=soul (has the ability of faith)

Noeb
Jun 11th 2013, 11:11 PM
"New creation" is something we have to abide in --- isn't it?Absolutely NOT! You cannot jump in and out of the new creature.

episkopos
Jun 11th 2013, 11:18 PM
Absolutely NOT! You cannot jump in and out of the new creature.

The opposite is true! We are to put on the new man. That is our robes for the wedding. Without these robes we are not qualified to sit with Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

Noeb
Jun 11th 2013, 11:32 PM
All are called, Epi. You're thinking of Matt22:14, "Many are called but few are chosen" --- in context, it's everyone in view.Wrong!
Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

We don't reach everyone. That is our goal. The harvest is ripe and we need to pray for laborers, specifically so we can try to reach everyone.



Jesus said He would draw ALL MEN to Himself. He conspiciously used "helkuo-draw/drag", same as John6:44.And he's quite capable of doing that but it's totally unrelated to the task he has given us.



In fact, the [B]"word of faith" is put in every person's heart and mouth; Deut30:11-20 and Rom10:6-10.Wrong again....again.....
In Deu 29-30 Israel had heard the message of salvation, so they could not say they didn't know.
In Rom 10 the message of salvation is the gospel that we are to preach so it can be heard!!!
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

The gospel was not far from Israel. They heard.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

The word is spoken -- heard -- then and only then is man accountable for it.
Luk 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.



Everyone is drawn to where he/she can believe, Acts17:26-31.This is 'by nature' --same as Romans 1. Look
"if haply they might feel after him" -as men groping in the dark.

In describing this time when man was lost, trying to find and worship God in vain, Paul says
"the times of this ignorance God winked at"
How then does this failing ignorance lead men to Christ?

There's no justification at all for using this to support coming to Jesus. NONE!



There's no one who is excluded, not even those aboriginal peoples who lived in un-missionaried regions for millenia.We should not curve the word to ease our conscience. Jesus went and preached to those before the cross in prison. Let him handle those that do not hear the gospel. After all, he is the Just Judge.

Noeb
Jun 11th 2013, 11:34 PM
The opposite is true! We are to put on the new man. That is our robes for the wedding. Without these robes we are not qualified to sit with Abraham Isaac and Jacob.Scripture says no such thing. The only way to not be the new creature is to cast the Spirit out of you. Then you are not His!!!

episkopos
Jun 11th 2013, 11:37 PM
Scripture says no such thing. The only way to not be the new creature is to cast the Spirit out of you. Then you are not His!!!

Are you always in the presence of the Spirit so that you cannot sin? Do you do the works of Jesus?

Noeb
Jun 11th 2013, 11:45 PM
Are you always in the presence of the Spirit so that you cannot sin? Do you do the works of Jesus?Of course!!! He's in me and doesn't leave me. If I sin it's the new creature. The old is GONE!!!! Only way to get the old back is to kick the Spirit out of me.

episkopos
Jun 11th 2013, 11:52 PM
Of course!!! He's in me and doesn't leave me. If I sin it's the new creature. The old is GONE!!!! Only way to get the old back is to kick the Spirit out of me.

OK. I agree with that! But the new man still needs to be put on in a continuing way...the cross must be still carried. DAILY!!!!

If we put on the new man then the new creation WILL NOT SIN. It is when we try going at life just with our regenerate selves that we still stumble and fall.

We are to be FILLED with the Spirit...not just have the Spirit alive in us. If we are alive in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Noeb
Jun 12th 2013, 12:00 AM
OK. I agree with that! But the new man still needs to be put on in a continuing way...the cross must be still carried. DAILY!!!!

If we put on the new man then the new creation WILL NOT SIN. It is when we try going at life just with our regenerate selves that we still stumble and fall.

We are to be FILLED with the Spirit...not just have the Spirit alive in us. If we are alive in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.In Romans 12 Paul said they would be "transfigured" (immediate) by changing their mind to his way of thinking (immediate). To believe they are a sacrifice that is alive. That is putting on the new. Like putting on the full armor of God. It's aligning yourself with the knowledge of Christ -what he has done for us and to us. When I am tempted and believe I am dead to sin and alive to God because of His Cross I am instantly filled with the Spirit and do not sin. That is putting on the new man.

episkopos
Jun 12th 2013, 12:11 AM
In Romans 12 Paul said they would be "transfigured" (immediate) by changing their mind to his way of thinking (immediate). To believe they are a sacrifice that is alive. That is putting on the new. Like putting on the full armor of God. It's aligning yourself with the knowledge of Christ -what he has done for us and to us. When I am tempted and believe I am dead to sin and alive to God because of His Cross I am instantly filled with the Spirit and do not sin. That is putting on the new man.

There is a process called sanctification that involves learning to keep our garments. If you claim you have attained to this simultaneously...either you are far stronger than any Christian in our time..or else you have confused the issue.

Yes there is an initial filling with the Spirit at regeneration...but the walk is to maintain that same intimacy right through our lives...and grow into the full stature of Christ all the while. Paul ran to achieve what you say you have already and immediately. So a greater than Paul is surely among us!

Noeb
Jun 12th 2013, 03:35 AM
There is a process called sanctification that involves learning to keep our garments.Wrong. This is man's attempt at describing his experience of growing in the knowledge of Christ (which scripture never calls a process of sanctification), but we should never bring the word of God down to our level. Instead we should rise to the word of God and walk in newness of life. We are as sanctified the day we are born again as we are ever going to be. Whatever level man attains in his experience does not effect the sanctification accomplished by and given through Christ. Keeping our garment of justification and sanctification is proof of this reality and has absolutely nothing to do with a process man has made into a religion of works. Scripture always wonders what is taking so long for man to grow up. It does not encourage a long process of sanctification. It discourages it.



If you claim you have attained to this simultaneouslyAttained to what? You don't even understand what I just said, how can you know what I have attained?



and grow into the full stature of ChristEph 4:13 is about a "a perfect man" not perfect men. It would help you a lot if you'd understand scripture in context.



Paul ran to achieve what you say you have already and immediately.No. I have not attained the resurrection.
Php 3:11-12 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

We should walk in what we have attained.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Gadgeteer
Jun 12th 2013, 04:07 AM
New creation" is something we have to abide in --- isn't it?Absolutely NOT! You cannot jump in and out of the new creature.Paul admonishes us to constantly walk in the new man.


Ephesians4:22) lay aside the old man, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
23) ...be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24) and put on the new man, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth."

This is why the issue of OSAS is so important to me --- salvation is a constant drawing near to God, "keeping ourselves in His love". (James4:6-10, Jude20-21.)

Col1:21-23 says Jesus reconciled us to God through His body if we CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from (Jesus) the hope of the Gospel. 2Cor5:17 says anyone in Christ is a new creation --- but then it says BE reconciled to God.

That's the issue; abide in Him by faith, and hold fast to Him. Romans1:17 "from beginning faith to ENDING faith" --- it's just as important how we end, as how we begin.

Gadgeteer
Jun 12th 2013, 04:34 AM
All are called, Epi. You're thinking of Matt22:14, "Many are called but few are chosen" --- in context, it's everyone in view.Wrong!
Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

We don't reach everyone. That is our goal. The harvest is ripe and we need to pray for laborers, specifically so we can try to reach everyone."As-many-as-you-find", is "everyone-in-view".
:-)



Jesus said He would draw ALL MEN to Himself. He conspiciously used "helkuo-draw/drag", same as John6:44.And he's quite capable of doing that but it's totally unrelated to the task he has given us.The question is, "Is everyone really called to salvation?"
The answer is "yes".



In fact, the "word of faith" is put in every person's heart and mouth; Deut30:11-20 and Rom10:6-10.Wrong again....again.....
In Deu 29-30 Israel had heard the message of salvation, so they could not say they didn't know.I quoted Deut30:12-14. How does "It is IN your hearts and mouths, that you may observe it", become "It's not in your hearts and mouths"?


In Rom 10 the message of salvation is the gospel that we are to preach so it can be heard!!!
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and [B]how shall they hear without a preacher?

The gospel was not far from Israel. They heard.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

The word is spoken -- heard -- then and only then is man accountable for it.
Luk 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
I'm not sure of your point. But Rom10:14 is pragmatic; men are more likely to believe with a preacher --- but in verses like2Tim3:15 believing comes without "hearing".

Further --- the idea of "believe because of SEEING" (without hearing!) is well established in Scripture; John20:29, John10:38, and the rebuke of Matt11:21-24.


This is 'by nature' --same as Romans 1. Look
"if haply they might feel after him" -as men groping in the dark.

In describing this time when man was lost, trying to find and worship God in vain, Paul says
"the times of this ignorance God winked at"
How then does this failing ignorance lead men to Christ?Question --- how do you think "He's not far from EACH ONE of us", become "He's far enough away for the attempt to be IN VAIN"?

What Acts17 establishes is that God makes sure that it is within reach for every man to be saved. The idea of "seeking God", is salvational in Scripture --- "seek and you shall find" (Matt7:7); "few are those who FIND-BY-SEEKING the way to life" (Matt7:14, "heurisko" --- find by seeking!).


There's no justification at all for using this to support coming to Jesus. NONE!Then why did Jesus state that THOSE WHO seek righteousness come to Him, but THOSE WHO pursue sin avoid the light (John3:20-21)? Why did Jesus say THOSE WHO believe are wise, but THOSE WHO disbelieve are foolish (Matt7:24-27)?

Why did Paul say "THOSE WHO by perseverance in doing good seek glory honor and immorality (and therefore receive eternal life), but THOSE WHO are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness receive wrath?

Throughout Scripture salvation is availed to absolutely everyone. No one is excluded. See Rom5:17-19, where justification of life came to exactly the same people as condemnation came to.

"SO THEN as condemnation came to all men,
EVEN SO justification of life came to all men."

All. Those who have heard, and those who have not (though hearing increases the likelihood....)



There's no one who is excluded, not even those aboriginal peoples who lived in un-missionaried regions for millenia.We should not curve the word to ease our conscience. Jesus went and preached to those before the cross in prison. Let him handle those that do not hear the gospel. After all, he is the Just Judge.Do you perceive a different meaning for Rom2:14-16?

Noeb
Jun 12th 2013, 04:46 AM
Paul admonishes us to constantly walk in the new man.Sure but that's not abiding. You said, "New creation" is something we have to abide in". How do you stay in what you are? How do you leave what you are?



That's the issue; abide in Him by faithThis is your confusion. Abide in Him is the faith. Stay in him. Do not deny him.
1Jn 4:13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

If we have his Spirit we what? We are in him and he in us. Done.

Noeb
Jun 12th 2013, 04:59 AM
"As-many-as-you-find", is "everyone-in-view". No it is not.



The question is, "Is everyone really called to salvation?"
The answer is "yes".How do you figure?



I quoted Deut30:12-14. How does "It is IN your hearts and mouths, that you may observe it", become "It's not in your hearts and mouths"?It doesn't. That's the point. They heard and understood and are therefore w/o excuse.



I'm not sure of your point. But Rom10:14 is pragmatic; men are more likely to believe with a preacher --- but in verses like2Tim3:15 believing comes without "hearing".No it does not. Reading it is hearing it. Hearing is spiritual. When Jesus said if you have ears that can hear he wasn't talking about things on the side of their head. Reading Scripture is hearing Scripture -if you have ears that can hear.



Further --- the idea of "believe because of SEEING" (without hearing!) is well established in Scripture; John20:29, John10:38, and the rebuke of Matt11:21-24.Hearing is present.



Question --- how do you think "He's not far from EACH ONE of us", become "He's far enough away for the attempt to be IN VAIN"?The difficulty of finding God is not His distance from us, but our distance from Him because of sin.
(my time is up)

Gadgeteer
Jun 12th 2013, 06:00 AM
No it is not.Why not? Who was excluded?
The farmer made his own choice; so did the business man. So did the guy with dirty clothes.
Neither the king nor his servants told anyone "kiss off you're not invited"...


How do you figure?Well, 'cause of words like "It's not too far, nor is it too difficult". If everyone was NOT really called to salvation, it'd be really too far and unimaginably too difficult for the uncalled.


It doesn't. That's the point. They heard and understood and are therefore w/o excuse.But is everyone who hears, able to be saved? (I perceive "yes".)


No it does not. Reading it is hearing it. Hearing is spiritual. When Jesus said if you have ears that can hear he wasn't talking about things on the side of their head. Reading Scripture is hearing Scripture -if you have ears that can hear.And who decides who has ears and who does not?

Jesus answers this -- Matt13:15-16 says men close their OWN eyes and ears against belief; then, "blessed are YOUR ears BECAUSE they hear".

So it's not a case of "if you have ears", [b]but rather "if you decide to listen"...


Hearing is present.Well, it's a question of "hearing", or "seeing"; as you and I just read Matt13:15 men close their own eyes and ears against belief if they choose.


The difficulty of finding God is not His distance from us, but our distance from Him because of sin.Exactly that. But who makes the choice? Some on this forum have been arguing that God must take AWAY that "barrier-of-sin" before and in order for the person to believe. Proposing anyone is able to believe gets charges of "Pelagianism".

But what if God really does draw/call everyone out of their sinfulness, enough that they can believe? Therefore His judgment for UNBELIEF (John3:18, 1Jn5:10) is credible, and just. No "Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism", but neither is there "total inability" because God makes sure it's OVERCOME.


(my time is up)

Awww, rats --- that's too bad! The BONUS round was an all-expense-paid-trip to HAWAII.

;-P

ProDeo
Jun 12th 2013, 08:40 AM
Will the gospel really be preached to everyone in the world? Every single person (and every married person too)
Obviously not.

But by Jesus own words: And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

One might wonder what is said here.

Noeb
Jun 12th 2013, 01:38 PM
Why not? Who was excluded?
The farmer made his own choice; so did the business man. So did the guy with dirty clothes.
Neither the king nor his servants told anyone "kiss off you're not invited"...all those they could not find were excluded



Well, 'cause of words like "It's not too far, nor is it too difficult". these are they that heard the message spoken



But is everyone who hears, able to be saved? (I perceive "yes".)doesn't address whether everyone hears



And who decides who has ears and who does not?Jesus. Some reject the truth to the point they cannot hear Jesus. They cannot believe because they do not have the word and love of God in them when Jesus comes along. According to Jesus, not all can hear and see. In time past they could.

Noeb
Jun 12th 2013, 02:00 PM
Then why did Jesus state that THOSE WHO seek righteousness come to Him, but THOSE WHO pursue sin avoid the light (John3:20-21)? Why did Jesus say THOSE WHO believe are wise, but THOSE WHO disbelieve are foolish (Matt7:24-27)?

Why did Paul say "THOSE WHO by perseverance in doing good seek glory honor and immorality (and therefore receive eternal life), but THOSE WHO are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness receive wrath?

Throughout Scripture salvation is availed to absolutely everyone. No one is excluded. See Rom5:17-19, where justification of life came to exactly the same people as condemnation came to.

"SO THEN as condemnation came to all men,
EVEN SO justification of life came to all men."

All. Those who have heard, and those who have not (though hearing increases the likelihood....)

Do you perceive a different meaning for Rom2:14-16?Those that seek do come to him if and when they hear him, but how will they hear w/o a preacher?

Not all continually do good and continually seek. All have sinned. Paul is not saying those that seek and do good most of the time are saved because they do so. Quite the opposite. The Law condemns all. They'll still need mercy and grace.

Gadgeteer
Jun 13th 2013, 05:44 AM
all those they could not find were excludedNo one was directly excluded by the king (who, in the allegory is GOD). Quite the opposite --- each man made his own choice.


these are they that heard the message spokenNo, there's no exclusivity; it says "not too far nor too hard from ANYONE".


doesn't address whether everyone hearsLet's go back to Deut30:17-18 --- are those who disobey and perish, included in the "word-of-faith is IN your hearts and mouths"? The only possible answer is "yes".



And who decides who has ears and who does not?Jesus. Some reject the truth to the point they cannot hear Jesus. They cannot believe because they do not have the word and love of God in them when Jesus comes along. According to Jesus, not all can hear and see. In time past they could.


Matt13:15 "FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'

It's in caps because Jesus is quoting Isaiah6:10; [b]and Jesus exposes the Semitic View --- they close their own eyes and ears against belief.

Noeb, are you saying Jesus actually does the action of closing or opening eyes to belief, exclusively?

Noeb
Jun 13th 2013, 11:40 PM
No one was directly excluded by the king (who, in the allegory is GOD).No one ever said "directly".



Quite the opposite --- each man made his own choice.Correction. Those that were invited made their own choice.



No, there's no exclusivity; it says "not too far nor too hard from ANYONE"."Anyone" is those that heard!
Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;





Matt13:15 "FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'

It's in caps because Jesus is quoting Isaiah6:10; [b]and Jesus exposes the Semitic View --- they close their own eyes and ears against belief.
What did I say?
"Some reject the truth to the point they cannot hear Jesus. They cannot believe because they do not have the word and love of God in them when Jesus comes along. According to Jesus, not all can hear and see. In time past they could."

Gadgeteer
Jun 14th 2013, 02:28 AM
According to Jesus, not all can hear and see. In time past they could."

I don't understand --- what time past was it when all could hear and see (and believe and be saved)?

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/fragend/confused-smiley-007.gif

Noeb
Jun 14th 2013, 03:28 AM
Obviously before they couldn't any longer.

Gadgeteer
Jun 14th 2013, 04:24 AM
Obviously before they couldn't any longer.

Where do you find Scripture speaking of a time when men cease being able to believe savingly?

And what do you think causes it?

Noeb
Jun 14th 2013, 01:12 PM
You use Romans 1 and John 5 and 8 all the time. How then do you ask me what causes this?

Gadgeteer
Jun 14th 2013, 05:37 PM
You use Romans 1 and John 5 and 8 all the time. How then do you ask me what causes this?

Romans1 like where it says He "turns them over to a base and depraved mind" --- you take that to mean they can never again repent? I don't read it that way. Scripture is full of incidents embodying the "Semitic View" --- 2Cor4:3-4 is one, where the devil blinds them from seeing the Gospel and believing and being saved. But right there in front of that, 3:16 says they turn to God AND (then!) the veil blinding their hearts is removed.

"Turn-to-God", is belief.

Isaiah6:10 as we discussed is one:


Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed."

It doesn't matter "to whom this is addressed" (who will close their hearts/ears/eyes) --- Jesus explains in Matt13:15 that they close their own eyes against saving belief!

And that is "proof-positive" of Semitic View (Anthropomorphism).

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 12:18 AM
I'll have to give a more complete response later, because I didn't say that, but blinded in 2Cor 3 and 4 are two completely different words, one of them means hardened, not to mention is about Israel and not Gentiles.

Nick
Jun 15th 2013, 05:08 AM
Romans1 like where it says He "turns them over to a base and depraved mind" --- you take that to mean they can never again repent? I don't read it that way. Scripture is full of incidents embodying the "Semitic View" --- 2Cor4:3-4 is one, where the devil blinds them from seeing the Gospel and believing and being saved. But right there in front of that, 3:16 says they turn to God AND (then!) the veil blinding their hearts is removed.

"Turn-to-God", is belief.

Isaiah6:10 as we discussed is one:


Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed."

It doesn't matter "to whom this is addressed" (who will close their hearts/ears/eyes) --- Jesus explains in Matt13:15 that they close their own eyes against saving belief!

And that is "proof-positive" of Semitic View (Anthropomorphism).

Isaiah’s message was to be God’s instrument for hiding the truth from an unreceptive people. Why would God, and later Jesus who quotes this verse, want to hide the truth? Think about that.

Gadgeteer
Jun 15th 2013, 07:11 AM
Isaiah’s message was to be God’s instrument for hiding the truth from an unreceptive people. Why would God, and later Jesus who quotes this verse, want to hide the truth? Think about that.

Why would Jesus say they closed their OWN eyes against understanding lest they return and be healed?

We've discussed "Semitic View" --- Exodus10:1 "God hardened Pharaoh's heart", which asserts the same thing as two verses earlier Exodus9:34 "Pharaoh hardened his OWNheart". We've discussed 2Cor4:3-4 "the devil blinded them against belief"; but 2Cor3:16 says they turn to God before the veil-over-their-hearts removed.

Have we discussed the idea of "believe-because-of-seeing"? John20:29, John10:38. And the basis of the rebuke of Matt11:21-24 --- why would those who saw Jesus' miracles but refused to believe, be judged harsher than ancients who had not the luxury of living when they could see Jesus' miracles? There's nothing in "Predestined-Salvation" that can explain harsher judgment.

Moments ago on the Jn3:16 thread I asked you about the idea of "THOSE WHO" --- exactly who decides individuals' heart-hardening, and heart-softening?

Consider Rom9:18 ("God hardens whom He desires") --- how can you fit that with Heb3:8, "Do not harden YOUR (own!) hearts"?

You can't, can you? In context, Heb3:8 then continues with a warning lest WE be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God. We are partners of Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end (14); Christ's house IF we hold fast (6). So the only way to make all those verses work together is to recognize "Semitic View" in Rom9:18, God does not actually harden ANYBODY --- isn't it?

Do you begin to see all the verses that must be brushed aside to continue holding any kind of "predestination doctrine"?

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 02:05 PM
Isaiah6:10 as we discussed is one:


Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed."

It doesn't matter "to whom this is addressed" (who will close their hearts/ears/eyes) --- Jesus explains in Matt13:15 that they close their own eyes against saving belief!
continue......
lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 02:08 PM
Isaiah’s message was to be God’s instrument for hiding the truth from an unreceptive people. Why would God, and later Jesus who quotes this verse, want to hide the truth? Think about that.Jesus started coding his message after this

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 03:08 PM
Romans1 like where it says He "turns them over to a base and depraved mind" --- you take that to mean they can never again repent?When I said "Obviously before they couldn't any longer." it was not a broad and general statement. I said
"Some reject the truth to the point they cannot hear Jesus. They cannot believe because they do not have the word and love of God in them"
You know the scriptures for these and
"According to Jesus, not all can hear and see. In time past they could."
You know when they could have accepted Him they rejected Jesus and blasphemed the Spirit, so Jesus began speaking in parables so that they could not see and hear.
In fact his preceding parable and following explanation was the sower, describing different types of ground and how they receive Him.
After saying "By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand" they are the first type of ground;
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Can these that rejected Him and blasphemed the Spirit repent? Jesus went on to explain......
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy [Satan] came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mat 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air [Satan] come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven [Corruption], which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.



Scripture is full of incidents embodying the "Semitic View" --- 2Cor4:3-4 is one, where the devil blinds them from seeing the Gospel and believing and being saved. But right there in front of that, 3:16 says they turn to God AND (then!) the veil blinding their hearts is removed.What is meant by "the god of this world"?

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature [the course of this world] the children of wrath, even as others.

2Co 4:4 ......them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God,
are
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

which is the same as Eph 2, which is all. This is not some special blinding. In 2Cor 4:1-5 Paul said we preach but not all that hear, understand. If they do not understand it is because they can't, not because God didn't want them to. ALL have been taught of the Father but not all have not learned, so they will not come to Jesus. They do not have the word and love of God in them. They are not of God (the Father) but of their father (Satan).

Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.
Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
............
Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Joh 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
Joh 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

Gadgeteer
Jun 15th 2013, 07:24 PM
When I said "Obviously before they couldn't any longer." it was not a broad and general statement. I said
"Some reject the truth to the point they cannot hear Jesus. They cannot believe because they do not have the word and love of God in them"I read John5:42 differently --- not that they cannot believe, but they are unwilling to come to Jesus because they DO not love God.

The command to "love God" is issued as if men can obey.


You know the scriptures for these and
"According to Jesus, not all can hear and see. In time past they could."Where is that?


You know when they could have accepted Him they rejected Jesus and blasphemed the Spirit, so Jesus began speaking in parables so that they could not see and hear.In Matt13 Jesus said "to those who have, more is given" --- "more" is parable explanations.

To those who have --- the only ones who have something, are the "saved".

In fact his preceding parable and following explanation was the sower, describing different types of ground and how they receive Him.
After saying "By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand" they are the first type of ground;
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. Still --- the choice of understanding is personal; never God's, but each decides for himself to pursue righteousness and God, or to pursue sin. John3:20-21.


Can these that rejected Him and blasphemed the Spirit repent? Jesus went on to explain......
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy [satan] came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mat 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air [satan] come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven [Corruption], which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.


What is meant by "the god of this world"?The devil.


Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature [the course of this world] the children of wrath, even as others.

2Co 4:4 ......them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God,
are
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
Again, men turn to God first, only then is the "veil over their hearts" (of 2Cor4:3-4) removed. "Turn-to-God", is believe.


which is the same as Eph 2, which is all. This is not some special blinding. In 2Cor 4:1-5 Paul said we preach but not all that hear, understand. If they do not understand it is because they can't, not because God didn't want them to. ALL have been taught of the Father but not all have not learned, so they will not come to Jesus. They do not have the word and love of God in them. They are not of God (the Father) but of their father (satan).Not because they "can't", but because they won't.

Condemnation is only for willful unbelief; John3:18, 1Jn5:10.


Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.
Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? John5:40 simply states they did not obey the command "to love God". Matt22:37.


Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
............
Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Joh 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
Joh 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
If God was their Father --- if they believed and loved God, THEN they would love Jesus.

See John17:6, those who belong to God, those who believe and love the Father, He gives to the Son.

See also Lydia, Acts16:14-15 --- she was a worshiper of God ("Thine they were"), and her eyes were opened to Jesus ("and You gave them to Me" --- Jn17:6).

That's also Cornelius, Acts10; he loved God, and his heart turned to Jesus.