PDA

View Full Version : The Race of Faith



episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 03:02 PM
Greetings to all.

I thought to do a thread on the very purpose of the Christian walk and that from God's perspective...according to the word.

So here goes!

When we are born again we receive a tiny deposit of the Spirit. God gives grace to people who seek Him and ask Him. So God gives out of His generosity and will to see us become a part of Him in His Son.

The old nature is put away in order to make room for the new nature in Christ. We are talking here of someone who is born of God by the Spirit.

So we enter into the race of faith. The spiritual seed planted within us must be nurtured and edified in order to grow into the likeness of Christ.

But there are a lot of factors that can impede a person in this race.

A race must not just be begun, it must be finished...and it must be won.

We need to run to win in order to do well. A casual participation will not suffice to win the race. We need to run to win.

The race is to win over the soul unto salvation.

The soul is a make-up of everything we are. The spirit that is quickened is made up of everything Jesus Christ is. But the soul is big and powerful and the spirit small and weak...at least at first. The renewing of the mind sees the soul become subject even to the smallest promptings of the spirit within.

So the spirit is meant to lead...and the soul to follow. In this way our soul is being saved.

Heb_10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Php_2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 03:08 PM
2Pe_1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

In order to win the race...we will need to move beyond the first level of faith we have received at new birth...Peter says we need to add to that faith in order to not lose the race.

There is a list of things we need to add to our faith in order to grow into the likeness of Christ..

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


Giving all diligence means we are running to win... :)

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 03:14 PM
Another huge help in running the race is provided by our brothers and sisters in the Lord. We cannot do much in the way of growth unless we are vitally attached to the Body of Christ in our daily lives.

God has bestowed gifts, wisdom, understanding, and all forms of help within the body...and His presence as well. These things are meant to draw out the hidden life within and make it grow THROUGH the soul into evidence so that all can see the life of Christ which has been brought out. So we mature in this way. We grow into the very image of Christ..and we do this together. The Christian race is not meant to be run alone...but together helping each other along the way. We need at times to bear the burden of others and our burdens also may need to be carried for a time. But we face the difficult task of transformation of character together. :)

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 15th 2013, 03:27 PM
Running the race is a great topic.

In this sentence, do you mean we receive a tiny deposit of The Holy Spirit?


When we are born again we receive a tiny deposit of the Spirit.

If the answer is yes, please show scriptural evidence for this statement.
I do not believe anyone receives the Holy Spirit in allottments. It is a popular teaching in some circles...but I do not believe it is a correct teaching.
Prove me wrong.

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 03:36 PM
Running the race is a great topic.

In this sentence, do you mean we receive a tiny deposit of The Holy Spirit?



If the answer is yes, please show scriptural evidence for this statement.
I do not believe anyone receives the Holy Spirit in allottments. It is a popular teaching in some circles...but I do not believe it is a correct teaching.
Prove me wrong.

Allotments is your word...I would say we all receive a deposit of the Spirit...some more than others. It is what we do with that portion that determines how we finish the race.

But we all have a character and a soul life that needs transformation. The Spirit must be allowed to grow THROUGH our souls thus saving them in the process.

2Co_5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

G728
ἀῤῥαβών
arrhabōn
ar-hrab-ohn'
Of Hebrew origin [H6162]; a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: - earnest.

This is akin to a talent in the parable of the talents. We are to make a profit (through the soul) on the initial payment.

Valencia
Jun 15th 2013, 03:44 PM
Allotments is your word...I would say we all receive a deposit of the Spirit...some more than others. It is what we do with that portion that determines how we finish the race.

But we all have a character and a soul life that needs transformation. The Spirit must be allowed to grow THROUGH our souls thus saving them in the process.

2Co_5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

G728
ἀῤῥαβών
arrhabōn
ar-hrab-ohn'
Of Hebrew origin [H6162]; a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: - earnest.

This is akin to a talent in the parable of the talents. We are to make a profit (through the soul) on the initial payment.
2 cor 5:5 is not a good choice for you to use in this case, that verse essentially is saying we have been given the Holy Spirit as a deposit or guarantee, depending on the version you use. You have chosen a version that can be manipulated into supporting your view.

The NT was not written in Hebrew although you used Hebrew to define a word which was most likely written in Greek.

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 03:51 PM
2 cor 5:5 is not a good choice for you to use in this case, that verse essentially is saying we have been given the Holy Spirit as a deposit or guarantee, depending on the version you use. You have chosen a version that can be manipulated into supporting your view.

The NT was not written in Hebrew although you used Hebrew to define a word which was most likely written in Greek.

Notice the strong's number..G is for Greek.

I am just listing the Greek word from the concordance. The Greek word is taken from the Hebrew root. Sort of like "Amen" and "hallelujah" or "hosanna" are used in the Greek text as well yet have Hebrew roots.

Valencia
Jun 15th 2013, 03:56 PM
Notice the strong's number..G is for Greek.

I am just listing the Greek word from the concordance. The Greek word is taken from the Hebrew root. Sort of like "Amen" and "hallelujah" or "hosanna" are used in the Greek text as well yet have Hebrew roots.

Yes, sorry about that......

You still not have addressed 2 Cor 5:5 which states plainly the Holy Spirit is given as a guarantee and or deposit. You have chosen the version which supports your doctrine.

It's good to read many versions to get a more well rounded understanding.

On a side, note, I do agree with the post on community, although we have yet to find any such community in existence.

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 04:06 PM
Yes, sorry about that......

You still not have addressed 2 Cor 5:5 which states plainly the Holy Spirit is given as a guarantee and or deposit. You have chosen the version which supports your doctrine.

It's good to read many versions to get a more well rounded understanding.

On a side, note, I do agree with the post on community, although we have yet to find any such community in existence.


We are given a pledge from God and He will pay out fully upon the giving to God what He is due and this in good faith. We have been purchased body and soul at redemption. We are no longer our own. We are the property of God now. So we are to serve the Lord in newness of life accomplishing His will by bringing our lives captive to His will.

I would think the Hebrew root of the word for pledge derives from the fact that the Jews were very active in commerce...as well as the word of God.


As for community...well we live in an individualistic and consumer oriented society that is rich beyond Solomon. Unfortunately the gospel doesn't seem to be able to break through that facade. We lack depth and the genuine desire to see His kingdom come into our midst.

There are a few who desire or experience the community of the Spirit. But these are spread out over a large area. There is very little concentration in the body at this time.

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 15th 2013, 04:12 PM
He has given The Holy Spirit so that the transformation can occur.
The Holy Spirit is His way of guarantee that the transformation will take place.

See the wording of the ESV
5-7


God is the one who makes all of this possible.
He has given us his Spirit to make us certain that he will do it.

So always be cheerful!
As long as we are in these bodies, we are away from the Lord.

But we live by faith, not by what we see.

Looking for the soul as you mentioned here in scripture as well and not finding it.









Concider this--How is it that The Holy Spirit can be divided into tiny deposits...when The Holy Spirit is one entity?

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 04:18 PM
He has given The Holy Spirit so that the transformation can occur.

Amen!!! He has given us all the tools to do the job!


The Holy Spirit is His way of guarantee that the transformation will take place.

There are no guarantees like that. WE show we want to be with God by how diligently we live for Him alone. There are many trials and tests...but the one who loves God and is obedient gets through them all. God will help us...but the walk is what WE must do. A relationship is a 2 way street.




Concider this--How is it that The Holy Spirit can be divided into tiny deposits...when The Holy Spirit is one entity?

The Spirit is divided up among us the body...like when we break bread. The church is the place where the Spirit is gathered again in unity. But we also have a say whether we wish to carry the Spirit into unity or else use the Spirit deposit as a guarantee while we run off in a disunity to do our own thing.

The ball is still in play!

What will we do with what God has given us?

Matt25 Brother
Jun 15th 2013, 04:20 PM
When we are born again we receive a tiny deposit of the Spirit.Please provide Scripture that supports this. It is not true.


John 3, NASB
33 "He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true.
34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. [emphasis added]We receive the Holy Spirit in full measure from the very first.


So we enter into the race of faith. The spiritual seed planted within us must be nurtured and edified in order to grow into the likeness of Christ.True, but this is called sanctification, not "clinging to salvation." We have our salvation assured, as the Holy Spirit is the seal of a downpayment for our redemption.


Ephesians 1
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.The word translated "pledge" is the Greek arrhabon which literally means a down payment toward the full amount to be tendered at a later time, either at our death or at the Rapture. We have no part in our salvation, it all the work of the Holy Spirit. Is He someone who would renege on a pledge? The thought is ridiculous.


A race must not just be begun, it must be finished...and it must be won.Also not true. Paul compares himself, in 1 Corinthians 9:24, to the racers and combatants in the Isthmian games, well known by the Corinthians. But in the Christian race all may run so as to obtain, not salvation, but the rewards due to the good and faithful servants.


The race is to win over the soul unto salvation.No. The race is discipline ourselves so that He may conform us to His image. Salvation is assured. Rewards are not.

Valencia
Jun 15th 2013, 04:22 PM
We are given a pledge from God and He will pay out fully upon the giving to God what He is due and this in good faith. We have been purchased body and soul at redemption. We are no longer our own. We are the property of God now. So we are to serve the Lord in newness of life accomplishing His will by bringing our lives captive to His will.
I agree!

In order for us to serve the Lord in the newness of life, what is it we need?!? HIM!!! His Holy Spirit. How is it possible to do His will, serve Him, when He is divided into small pieces within each one of us?

He has promised He will provide for all of our spiritual needs!



As for community...well we live in an individualistic and consumer oriented society that is rich beyond Solomon. Unfortunately the gospel doesn't seem to be able to break through that facade. We lack depth and the genuine desire to see His kingdom come into our midst.
The gospel could break through it, we just need to believe it will! The gospel does come in power!



There are a few who desire or experience the community of the Spirit. But these are spread out over a large area. There is very little concentration in the body at this time.
Maybe in due time, maybe we will have to wait for the new heaven and new earth???
I'm baffled by this.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 04:30 PM
Please provide Scripture that supports this. It is not true. We receive the Holy Spirit in full measure from the very first.

ohn 3, NASB
33 "He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true.
34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. [emphasis added]No. Jesus had the Spirit in fullness and so spoke the words of God. The amount is not a percentage of the Spirit but a flow of communication from fellowship and relationship.

KJV
Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

JFB Commentary
Joh 3:34
for God giveth not the Spirit by measure — Here, again, the sharpest conceivable line of distinction is drawn between Christ and all human-inspired teachers: “They have the Spirit in a limited degree; but God giveth not [to Him] the Spirit by measure.” It means the entire fullness of divine life and divine power. The present tense “giveth,” very aptly points out the permanent communication of the Spirit by the Father to the Son, so that a constant flow and reflow of living power is to be understood (Compare Joh_1:15) [Olshausen].

Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

We can see this distinction from the rest of men in the context.
Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Joh 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
Joh 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Matt25 Brother
Jun 15th 2013, 04:32 PM
No. Jesus had the Spirit in fullness and so spoke the words of God. The amount is not a percentage of the Spirit but a flow of communication from fellowship and relationship.That's a bad interpretation that no Scripture can support. The passage I quoted shows that He gave the Spirit "without measure." The Greek phrase is ou metron, which literally means "no instrument of measure." The context does not limit the giving of the Spirit in this manner to Jesus alone. The word is "gives" or the Greek didomi, in the aorist tense, indicating one-time giving with ongoing effect. In other words, He gave in such great measure the supply is unlimited and could fill the world, if all would receive. If it was a past-tense "giving" it would be paradidomi meaning once only was the Spirit given. Such is nonsense.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 04:35 PM
That's a bad interpretation that no Scripture can support.Other scripture and the context demands you fall in line. ;) Same is said regardless of translation.

ESV
Joh 3:31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all.
Joh 3:32 He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony.
Joh 3:33 Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true.
Joh 3:34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure.
Joh 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.
Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Joh 1:15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'")
Joh 1:16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life--
1Jn 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us--
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Matt25 Brother
Jun 15th 2013, 04:40 PM
Other scripture and the context demands you fall in line. ;) Same is said regardless of translation.Read the edited version. Sorry, but you're not in line with Scripture on this one.

Valencia
Jun 15th 2013, 04:43 PM
Maybe the more important thing about this thread is that we are running a race, in the 2nd post it was given on how to build upon running the race and to accomplish this we need community.

It does matter how we run the race.

I do not see any scriptural support we are only given a piece of the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, we do see people who say they are Christians but have no fruit.

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 15th 2013, 04:46 PM
Amen!!! He has given us all the tools to do the job!

There are no guarantees like that. WE show we want to be with God by how diligently we live for Him alone. There are many trials and tests...but the one who loves God and is obedient gets through them all. God will help us...but the walk is what WE must do. A relationship is a 2 way street.


The Spirit is divided up among us the body...like when we break bread. The church is the place where the Spirit is gathered again in unity. But we also have a say whether we wish to carry the Spirit into unity or else use the Spirit deposit as a guarantee while we run off in a disunity to do our own thing.

If The Holy Spirit was only given to us in a "tiny deposit", scripture elsewhere would confirm that, which it does not.
The Holy Spirit is not tiny at all...in any way shape or form.

1 Cor. 12:13-14 “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many.”



The ball is still in play!

Teaching and learning about God is not a game to me personally, although it is wonderful and sometimes very fun?

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 04:51 PM
Please provide Scripture that supports this. It is not true.

Mat_13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.


We receive the Holy Spirit in full measure from the very first.

You may be confusing a believer with the Son of God...
Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.




True, but this is called sanctification, not "clinging to salvation." We have our salvation assured, as the Holy Spirit is the seal of a downpayment for our redemption.

It is part of salvation...God is looking for holiness and likeness to His Son. It is WE who are looking at this from a life and death perspective. We are given a down-payment to produce an increase in us towards the kingdom. He who is faithful in little is faithful in much.


The word translated "pledge" is the Greek arrhabon which literally means a down payment toward the full amount to be tendered at a later time, either at our death or at the Rapture. We have no part in our salvation, it all the work of the Holy Spirit. Is He someone who would renege on a pledge? The thought is ridiculous.

But we could renege on our pledge.... He is faithful....but all of creation awaits to see if we will be.


Also not true. Paul compares himself, in 1 Corinthians 9:24, to the racers and combatants in the Isthmian games, well known by the Corinthians. But in the Christian race all may run so as to obtain, not salvation, but the rewards due to the good and faithful servants.

We are to run with all we have and are. He who doesn't will probably not have what it takes to finish the race. The story of the tortoise and the hare applies here. We can be smug and miss the race.


No. The race is discipline ourselves so that He may conform us to His image. Salvation is assured. Rewards are not.

Again, I don't think you see salvation from the right light. Salvation means to not die forever...that is all.

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 05:03 PM
If The Holy Spirit was only given to us in a "tiny deposit", scripture elsewhere would confirm that, which it does not.
The Holy Spirit is not tiny at all...in any way shape or form.

1 Cor. 12:13-14 “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many.”




Teaching and learning about God is not a game to me personally, although it is wonderful and sometimes very fun?



In the parable of the talents..we see one person having 10 talents, another 5 talents and yet another just 1.

Now I'm going to put this out there for people to accept or not. But I think all three each started with 1 talent. But when the one talent's worth of fruit became mature the Father pruned that one so it could grow more.

So the one with 10 talents had been pruned 10 times..the one with 5 five times...but the one with only one talent never got to even the first pruning stage. He buried his talent so that he was unfruitful for His Master.

God is like a Gardener!!! :)

Joh_15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Valencia
Jun 15th 2013, 05:19 PM
In the parable of the talents..we see one person having 10 talents, another 5 talents and yet another just 1.

Now I'm going to put this out there for people to accept or not. But I think all three each started with 1 talent. But when the one talent's worth of fruit became mature the Father pruned that one so it could grow more.

So the one with 10 talents had been pruned 10 times..the one with 5 five times...but the one with only one talent never got to even the first pruning stage. He buried his talent so that he was unfruitful for His Master.

God is like a Gardener!!! :)

Joh_15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

It is a good parable to try and prove your point, but it's not flying. No matter how badly you want it to read, this parable does not read "talent" as the Holy Spirit. "Talent" could mean many things in this parable, but Holy Spirit is ONE and was never meant to be divided into several parts.

In order for any one of us to receive a "talent" or whatever it is you want to replace in this parable (be it money, gifts, grace, etc) we must have the Holy Spirit to begin with, it is whom we receive the gifts from.

We all know God is "like a gardener" but He does not prune the Holy Spirit in us, He prunes us, in order for us to bear Fruit.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 05:27 PM
Mat_13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Ermm....that's corruption.

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 05:29 PM
It is a good parable to try and prove your point, but it's not flying. No matter how badly you want it to read, this parable does not read "talent" as the Holy Spirit. "Talent" could mean many things in this parable, but Holy Spirit is ONE and was never meant to be divided into several parts.

In order for any one of us to receive a "talent" or whatever it is you want to replace in this parable (be it money, gifts, grace, etc) we must have the Holy Spirit to begin with, it is whom we receive the gifts from.

We all know God is "like a gardener" but He does not prune the Holy Spirit in us, He prunes us, in order for us to bear Fruit.

If you look more closely at what I am saying you will probably actually agree. I didn't say that the Holy Spirit was pruned in us...I said that we are given the Spirit in order to bear fruit. As the fruit arrives we are pruned of that..then we are given MORE of the Spirit in order to bear fruit at a higher maturity level. We are building ON our foundation by the Spirit. God is collecting the fruit of that growth.

So then he who is faithful in little is given more....

I have likened this as a target that is moved farther and farther back as we become better marksmen. We start at 100 metres...and try to qualify at that range. Then the target is moved farther away...200 meters and so on. In this way we are becoming better shots!

Or it is like seeing a purple wall up close. Then as our discernment gets better the wall is moved farther away making it harder to see...until it becomes a speck that only those who really know what purple is can see!!!

So maturity in Christ takes us to a place where we can rejoice in all things no matter how terrible it may seem. We bear fruit where other trees dry up and wither away! :)

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 05:35 PM
Ermm....that's corruption.

Read the parable ...don't add your meaning to it.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 05:40 PM
Read the edited version. Sorry, but you're not in line with Scripture on this one.
John needed to decrease because Jesus was superior. John was limited.
Jesus' testimony was "what he hath seen and heard" from above. He was the Christ.
John's was just what was given him. He was not the Christ.
The distinction is clear.

Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Joh 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Joh 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
Joh 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Valencia
Jun 15th 2013, 05:42 PM
If you look more closely at what I am saying you will probably actually agree. I didn't say that the Holy Spirit was pruned in us...I said that we are given the Spirit in order to bear fruit. As the fruit arrives we are pruned of that..then we are given MORE of the Spirit in order to bear fruit at a higher maturity level. We are building ON our foundation by the Spirit. God is collecting the fruit of that growth.

So then he who is faithful in little is given more....

Again, I see no scriptural support of receiving only a portion of the Spirit at any given time after a person has been given new life.

The concept of "Christ being formed in us" is what clicks for me when I read what you are writing. We begin immaturely, it is a honeymoon phase, God expects "not much" from us, Christ is barely seen in us except for perhaps the complete joy we have of finding the Savior, at this time we are given a vast amount of grace, it is baby steps we take, and as the Father prunes us, we bear more fruit, looking more and more like Christ as He is being formed in us. It continues, a dance if you will between the Father and us, until Christ is formed in us, and we are mature.

My explanations lack, I hope you understand what I am trying to convey.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 05:44 PM
Read the parable ...don't add your meaning to it.
I did and I didn't. In all three, we find Satan.

Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy [Satan] came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mat 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air [Satan] come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven [Corruption], which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.


Your history is to pull a verse out by itself out of context to use in your works based salvation. You are doing it again.

Matt25 Brother
Jun 15th 2013, 06:07 PM
John needed to decrease because Jesus was superior. John was limited.
Jesus' testimony was "what he hath seen and heard" from above. He was the Christ.
John's was just what was given him. He was not the Christ.
The distinction is clear.Jesus came with great power. John said that the Spirit was given to Him without measure, and that was obvious by how He preached in a way no one had ever preached before, healing the sick, casting out devils, and doing many wonderful works among the people. When He ascended, He made it possible for us to receive that same power in order to walk in His light with faith and obedience -- not obedience that assures alvation, but obedience that comes out of love for Him. We are already seated with Him in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6). God does not measure the Spirit to you; but, as with Christ, He gives you the Spirit without measure. Through our failure to allow Him to sanctify us -- through lack of Bible study, unwillingness to be conformed, etc. -- you measure its effectiveness to yourself, but He is given without limitation. How much the Holy Spirit can do is strictly up to us, because His total and complete presence and power is always with us. Christ obeyed the Father in all things and did His will; when a person does the same today, the Spirit will not fail to give us the strength, endurance and ability to serve with His power.

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 07:01 PM
Again, I see no scriptural support of receiving only a portion of the Spirit at any given time after a person has been given new life.

The concept of "Christ being formed in us" is what clicks for me when I read what you are writing. We begin immaturely, it is a honeymoon phase, God expects "not much" from us, Christ is barely seen in us except for perhaps the complete joy we have of finding the Savior, at this time we are given a vast amount of grace, it is baby steps we take, and as the Father prunes us, we bear more fruit, looking more and more like Christ as He is being formed in us. It continues, a dance if you will between the Father and us, until Christ is formed in us, and we are mature.

My explanations lack, I hope you understand what I am trying to convey.

I agree completely. But the word says to BE filled with the Spirit. This is not the automatic condition of the Christian. Some are more filled than others...some are more mature in the portion they have been given than others.

But we will be judged according to what we have been given.

So there is a distinction between being filled to the capacity we are (as a vessel) and being increased in that capacity!

We learn to remain filled through the gaining of maturity...then we grow into a larger vessel..and we learn to mature into THAT. So we begin with just ourselves to worry over and then we are given more responsibility so that many are being helped. As we grow we become like a flowing river. We learn to not obstruct the life that is given for everyone to experience. We learn to be a conduit of His life into the world! :)

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 07:04 PM
Jesus came with great power. John said that the Spirit was given to Him without measure, and that was obvious by how He preached in a way no one had ever preached before, healing the sick, casting out devils, and doing many wonderful works among the people. When He ascended, He made it possible for us to receive that same power in order to walk in His light with faith and obedience -- not obedience that assures alvation, but obedience that comes out of love for Him. We are already seated with Him in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6). God does not measure the Spirit to you; but, as with Christ, He gives you the Spirit without measure. Through our failure to allow Him to sanctify us -- through lack of Bible study, unwillingness to be conformed, etc. -- you measure its effectiveness to yourself, but He is given without limitation. How much the Holy Spirit can do is strictly up to us, because His total and complete presence and power is always with us. Christ obeyed the Father in all things and did His will; when a person does the same today, the Spirit will not fail to give us the strength, endurance and ability to serve with His power.



What is true of Jesus in this regard is not the case for everybody who follows Him.

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

If we had faith even the size of a mustard seed...that is not a lot...but a small measure.

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 07:06 PM
I did and I didn't. In all three, we find Satan.

Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy [Satan] came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mat 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air [Satan] come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven [Corruption], which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.


Your history is to pull a verse out by itself out of context to use in your works based salvation. You are doing it again.

In this case Jesus is using leaven as a good thing. The kingdom of God also works on a leavening system...whereby we grow into Christ. Of course the leaven in this case is not evil but the Holy Spirit.

Matt25 Brother
Jun 15th 2013, 07:23 PM
If we had faith even the size of a mustard seed...that is not a lot...but a small measure.You completely miss the point of Jesus' rebuke of the disciples in that passage. He was saying that faith "the size of a mustard seed" is more than sufficient to move moutains! Any faith is sufficient. You have to act on it, though.

11880

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 07:27 PM
You completely miss the point of Jesus' rebuke of the disciples in that passage. He was saying that faith "the size of a mustard seed" is more than sufficient to move moutains! Any faith is sufficient. You have to act on it, though.

11880

...and this would imply that we begin with a small portion of faith and the Spirit. We can indeed be filled with the Spirit. But it is our inward maturity that indicates how much of Him will we maintain in our moment by moment walk.

Valencia
Jun 15th 2013, 07:41 PM
I agree completely. But the word says to BE filled with the Spirit. This is not the automatic condition of the Christian. Some are more filled than others...some are more mature in the portion they have been given than others.

A true believer will have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we are the temple of the Living God, how are we His temple if He isn't there??? If He is not there, we are not believers. This is a black and white issue.

What is not automatic is salvation and what is not automatic is a consistent growth in maturity. Some people are still on milk when they should be way into the meat portion. This is not a black and white issue.



But we will be judged according to what we have been given. I agree, there is nothing to dispute here except it's not talking about the Holy Spirit. ;)



So there is a distinction between being filled to the capacity we are (as a vessel) and being increased in that capacity!
The Bible says to be filled with the Spirit - in comparison to being drunk. Some people believe we should be baptized in the Spirit - is this what you are referring to?

Edit: I do understand we must continue to be filled with the Spirit as in not grieving the Spirit, I have experienced after intense prayer and feeling the Holy Spirit, and then watching the news on TV and that "feeling" was swept away. I do not believe the Spirit left, but it did grieve Him. Is this what you mean?

I will have to study on this more, it still does not flow right for some reason.



We learn to remain filled through the gaining of maturity...then we grow into a larger vessel..and we learn to mature into THAT. So we begin with just ourselves to worry over and then we are given more responsibility so that many are being helped. As we grow we become like a flowing river. We learn to not obstruct the life that is given for everyone to experience. We learn to be a conduit of His life into the world! :)

The Holy Spirit helps us to mature, without Him, there would be no maturing. This is all about our maturity and Christ being formed in us, this should be first and foremost the ultimate goal for a Saint.

I do agree with the rest you have said here.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 07:41 PM
Jesus came with great power. John said that the Spirit was given to Him without measure,Glad we agree.



When He ascended, He made it possible for us to receive that same power in order to walk in His light with faith and obedience -- not obedience that assures alvation, but obedience that comes out of love for Him. We are already seated with Him in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6).Has nothing to do with the passage. It's about what Jesus was.



God does not measure the Spirit to you; but, as with Christ, He gives you the Spirit without measure.What is available and walked in are not the same, though it is the goal.



Through our failure to allow Him to sanctify usHe sanctified us in Him while we were enemies and sinners. We don't get sanctified. That's man's religious process of works. It doesn't effect the new creature.



-- through lack of Bible study, unwillingness to be conformed,We will be conformed at the resurrection. This is not something that happens now.



-- you measure its effectiveness to yourself, but He is given without limitation.Again, all is available because of Christ. It's a done deal. We grow in the knowledge of what Christ has done but this does not change who we are in Christ.



How much the Holy Spirit can do is strictly up to us, because His total and complete presence and power is always with us. Christ obeyed the Father in all things and did His will; when a person does the same today, the Spirit will not fail to give us the strength, endurance and ability to serve with His power.We agree here.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 07:47 PM
In this case Jesus is using leaven as a good thing. The kingdom of God also works on a leavening system...whereby we grow into Christ. Of course the leaven in this case is not evil but the Holy Spirit.This is foreign to the context, not to mention Christianity, period. What can you show us from the context to justify such an interpretation? We know what happened before he told the parables, Jesus defined the parable, and explained why he started speaking in parables. Nowhere is there anything about what you propose. You are just pulling a verse out to suit your works based religion. Same old story as all your other threads. Nothing new to see here.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 07:51 PM
You completely miss the point of Jesus' rebuke of the disciples in that passage. He was saying that faith "the size of a mustard seed" is more than sufficient to move moutains! Any faith is sufficient. You have to act on it, though.

11880Correct. I've tried to explain this to episkopos in the recent past but his works doctrine is more important than truth.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 08:02 PM
In this case Jesus is using leaven as a good thing.Should also note that if this were true, it would be the only time in scripture. Strange indeed. That should have caused you to look at it in context.

Matt25 Brother
Jun 15th 2013, 08:03 PM
Glad you see it now.I saw it along. Unfortunately, you still don't.


Has nothing to do with the passage. It's about what Jesus was.Yes it is what Jesus was about, but also what we are about.


What is available and walked in are not the same.That's precisely what I said. That is not God limiting the Spirit, it is us!.


He sanctified us in Him while we were enemies and sinners. We don't get sanctified. That's man's religious process of works.Completely unbiblical! I refer you to Paul's testimony before Felix regarding his conversion on the Damascus Road:


Acts 26, NASB
16 " 'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;
17 "rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
18 "to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' "That is the only way one can be sanctified, but actually believing in Christ toward salvation.


We will be conformed at the resurrection. This is not something that happens now.Wrong. You fail to realize that sanctification is a three-stage process. The first stage occurs at the beginning of our Christian lives. It is an initial moral change, a break from the power and love of sin. It is the point at which believers can count themselves “dead to sin but alive to God” (Romans 6:11). Once sanctification has begun, we are no longer under sin’s dominion (Romans 6:14). There is a reorientation of desires, and we develop a love of righteousness. Paul calls it “slavery to righteousness” (Romans 6:17-18).

The second stage of sanctification requires a lifetime to complete. As we grow in grace, we are gradually – but steadily – changing to be more like Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:18). This occurs in a process of daily spiritual renewal (Colossians 3:10). The apostle Paul himself was being sanctified even as he ministered to others. Paul claimed that he had not reached perfection, but that he “pressed on” to attain everything Christ desired for him (Philippians 3:12).

The third and final stage of sanctification occurs in the future. When believers die, their spirits go to be with Christ (2 Corinthians 5:6-8). Since nothing unclean can enter heaven (Revelation 21:27), we must be made perfect at that point. The sanctification of the whole person—body, soul, and spirit—will finally be complete when the Lord Jesus returns and we receive glorified bodies (Philippians 3:21; 1 Corinthians 15:35-49). This is the one to which you refer, but it is the end of the process, not the total process.


Again, all is available because of Christ. It's a done deal. We grow in the knowledge of what Christ has done but this does not change who we are in Christ.How can you fail to understand that is precisely what I'm saying? We limit our response to the Holy Spirit, we do not receive a limited amount of the Holy Spirit.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 08:15 PM
I saw it along. Unfortunately, you still don't.

Yes it is what Jesus was about, but also what we are about.

That's precisely what I said. That is not God limiting the Spirit, it is us!.

Completely unbiblical! I refer you to Paul's testimony before Felix regarding his conversion on the Damascus Road:

That is the only way one can be sanctified, but actually believing in Christ toward salvation.

Wrong. You fail to realize that sanctification is a three-stage process. The first stage occurs at the beginning of our Christian lives. It is an initial moral change, a break from the power and love of sin. It is the point at which believers can count themselves “dead to sin but alive to God” (Romans 6:11). Once sanctification has begun, we are no longer under sin’s dominion (Romans 6:14). There is a reorientation of desires, and we develop a love of righteousness. Paul calls it “slavery to righteousness” (Romans 6:17-18).

The second stage of sanctification requires a lifetime to complete. As we grow in grace, we are gradually – but steadily – changing to be more like Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:18). This occurs in a process of daily spiritual renewal (Colossians 3:10). The apostle Paul himself was being sanctified even as he ministered to others. Paul claimed that he had not reached perfection, but that he “pressed on” to attain everything Christ desired for him (Philippians 3:12).

The third and final stage of sanctification occurs in the future. When believers die, their spirits go to be with Christ (2 Corinthians 5:6-8). Since nothing unclean can enter heaven (Revelation 21:27), we must be made perfect at that point. The sanctification of the whole person—body, soul, and spirit—will finally be complete when the Lord Jesus returns and we receive glorified bodies (Philippians 3:21; 1 Corinthians 15:35-49). This is the one to which you refer, but it is the end of the process, not the total process.

How can you fail to understand that is precisely what I'm saying? We limit our response to the Holy Spirit, we do not receive a limited amount of the Holy Spirit.LOL, well you can join episkopos then. Not one verse you put forth says anything about sanctification being a process, much less three stages. You made that up. Notice you couldn't quote the verses. Most hold your doctrine of men and will take your word for it, but if you had to post the passages they would see it says noting of the sort. Yet, I can post verses that actually say we are already sanctified. :kiss:

Valencia
Jun 15th 2013, 08:23 PM
LOL, well you can join episkopos then. Not one verse you put forth says anything about sanctification being a process, much less three stages. You made that up. Notice you couldn't quote the verses. Most hold your doctrine of men and will take your word for it, but if you had to post the passages they would see it says noting of the sort. Yet, I can post verses that actually say we are already sanctified. :kiss:

The Holy Spirit is necessary in the sanctification process, for if we were all sanctified completely in action and in deed, we would be as Christ is already. The more we are obedient to Christ, the more sanctified we become.

Romans 6:19 "For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification."

1 Peter 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Valencia
Jun 15th 2013, 08:48 PM
When we are born again we receive a tiny deposit of the Spirit. God gives grace to people who seek Him and ask Him. So God gives out of His generosity and will to see us become a part of Him in His Son.


I may have jumped the gun in my arguments against your OP, you said the above "when we are born again we receive a tiny deposit of the Spirit", and in subsequent posts you have said "be filled with the Spirit", etc. and I might be seeing it now. I would say it is a "measure of the Holy Spirit" though it's probably the same.

We are to be seeking to be filled with the Holy Spirit and asking God to be filled:

Luke 11:13 "If you then, who are evil, know how to give good things to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

This verse indicates the requester is already a child of the Lord's, meaning if we have to ask for the Holy Spirit, there must be more we need or just MORE. We should be asking Him for more of Him!

In Ephesians 3:14-21, Paul is asking that the Ephesians be filled with the power of the Holy Spirit and that they might be filled with the fullness of God, implying they were not already full.

Thanks for presenting the topic, next time I will not be so quick to jump.

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 09:12 PM
A true believer will have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we are the temple of the Living God, how are we His temple if He isn't there??? If He is not there, we are not believers. This is a black and white issue.

But most of us live in our soul portion...according to what we think. There is a point of surrender where we have finally given up our lives to be lived through by Christ. Then it is no longer we who live but Christ in us. Until that point there is a sliding scale into what we have always lived like...and even below that!!


What is not automatic is salvation and what is not automatic is a consistent growth in maturity. Some people are still on milk when they should be way into the meat portion. This is not a black and white issue.

Yes! Some people need to start all over again since they have become shipwrecked according to the faith. We see this admonition in the book of Hebrews.


I agree, there is nothing to dispute here except it's not talking about the Holy Spirit. ;)

It all depends on how much we allow ourselves to be influenced by the indwelling Spirit. We also have the body of Christ to help draw that life out of us.



The Bible says to be filled with the Spirit - in comparison to being drunk. Some people believe we should be baptized in the Spirit - is this what you are referring to?

The baptism in the Spirit is an outer anointing for gifting in the ministerial gifts. A person receives this in order to function in the body in a way that builds up the brothers into their full capacity. In the old days this was given by the laying on of hands by the elders who were functioning in that capacity. This is usually not concurrent with being born again. Receiving the indwelling of the Spirit is not the same as receiving a gifting for outward service.

We begin with an inward quickening...and then grow some...until we are ready to take our place of responsibility in the church.




Edit: I do understand we must continue to be filled with the Spirit as in not grieving the Spirit, I have experienced after intense prayer and feeling the Holy Spirit, and then watching the news on TV and that "feeling" was swept away. I do not believe the Spirit left, but it did grieve Him. Is this what you mean?

I will have to study on this more, it still does not flow right for some reason.

The depth of fellowship varies according to the person. We do not all have the same capacity. Some vessels are larger than others. But regardless, being filled with the Spirit means we are actually overflowing into the lives of others. We are filled with love and peace...leaving no room for carnal thoughts or endeavors. When we are filled with the Spirit we are fully abiding in Christ. We cannot sin from there.



The Holy Spirit helps us to mature, without Him, there would be no maturing. This is all about our maturity and Christ being formed in us, this should be first and foremost the ultimate goal for a Saint.

Yes!!! He is drawing us closer to the Father so that we might know Him and that will change us forever.


I do agree with the rest you have said here.

:)

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 09:14 PM
I may have jumped the gun in my arguments against your OP, you said the above "when we are born again we receive a tiny deposit of the Spirit", and in subsequent posts you have said "be filled with the Spirit", etc. and I might be seeing it now. I would say it is a "measure of the Holy Spirit" though it's probably the same.

We are to be seeking to be filled with the Holy Spirit and asking God to be filled:

Luke 11:13 "If you then, who are evil, know how to give good things to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

This verse indicates the requester is already a child of the Lord's, meaning if we have to ask for the Holy Spirit, there must be more we need or just MORE. We should be asking Him for more of Him!

In Ephesians 3:14-21, Paul is asking that the Ephesians be filled with the power of the Holy Spirit and that they might be filled with the fullness of God, implying they were not already full.

Thanks for presenting the topic, next time I will not be so quick to jump.

I had the feeling you would see it... :)

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 09:18 PM
The Holy Spirit is necessary in the sanctification process, for if we were all sanctified completely in action and in deed, we would be as Christ is already. The more we are obedient to Christ, the more sanctified we become.

Romans 6:19 "For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification."

1 Peter 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Amen!

Sanctification is both a regeneration experience AND a long road to becoming as our Master...fit for every good work.

The truth always has two poles ...and normally people will argue one against the other. But it is only the truth as both poles line up. Some say sanctification is a one time event and others say it is only a process. But it is both!

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 09:21 PM
LOL, well you can join episkopos then. Not one verse you put forth says anything about sanctification being a process, much less three stages. You made that up. Notice you couldn't quote the verses. Most hold your doctrine of men and will take your word for it, but if you had to post the passages they would see it says noting of the sort. Yet, I can post verses that actually say we are already sanctified. :kiss:



Posting verses doesn't usually change a made up mind anyway...

Of course you can find verses that show the initial sanctification. Now look for verses that show sanctification as a goal of the Christian walk... :)

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 09:27 PM
Should also note that if this were true, it would be the only time in scripture. Strange indeed. That should have caused you to look at it in context.


We need to let the Holy Spirit permeate us. The process begins in our "chewy caramel center" and spreads into every facet of our lives.

Man I must be hungry....

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 09:29 PM
We will be conformed at the resurrection. This is not something that happens now.

But the race of faith is to be conformed to Christ now....while we yet walk in the flesh. We have this treasure in earthen vessels.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 09:45 PM
The Holy Spirit is necessary in the sanctification process, for if we were all sanctified completely in action and in deed, we would be as Christ is already. The more we are obedient to Christ, the more sanctified we become.

Romans 6:19 "For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification."

1 Peter 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:These don't say anything about a process of sanctification. You're reading your definition and doctrine into them.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 09:46 PM
Amen!

Sanctification is both a regeneration experience AND a long road to becoming as our Master...fit for every good work.

The truth always has two poles ...and normally people will argue one against the other. But it is only the truth as both poles line up. Some say sanctification is a one time event and others say it is only a process. But it is both!Then lets see the process in scripture!

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 09:49 PM
Posting verses doesn't usually change a made up mind anyway...

Of course you can find verses that show the initial sanctification. Now look for verses that show sanctification as a goal of the Christian walk... :)After over 20 years and I still haven't found them. Why would God put a process that doesn't matter in the end in the equation. For the fun of it? Again, don't confuse growing in the knowledge of Christ with sanctification. They are not the same thing.

Valencia
Jun 15th 2013, 09:49 PM
These don't say anything about a process of sanctification. You're reading your definition and doctrine into them.

They require something of you, yielding and obeying. The absence of either, on your part, will fail to sanctify you.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 09:50 PM
We need to let the Holy Spirit permeate us. The process begins in our "chewy caramel center" and spreads into every facet of our lives.

Man I must be hungry....What does this have to do with you equating the Spirit with Corruption?

Valencia
Jun 15th 2013, 09:51 PM
After over 20 years and I still haven't found them. Why would God put a process that doesn't matter in the end in the equation. For the fun of it? Again, don't confuse growing in the knowledge of Christ with sanctification. They are not the same thing.

Satan has more knowledge about God than all of us, do you really believe this is all that is required and insisted upon by God?

What we do have that satan does not, is the ability to grow in sanctification.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 09:54 PM
But the race of faith is to be conformed to Christ nowWhich one?
Rom 8:29
Rom 12:2
Php 3:10

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 09:55 PM
They require something of you, yielding and obeying. The absence of either, on your part, will fail to sanctify you.So the word of truth fails?

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 09:56 PM
Satan has more knowledge about God than all of us, do you really believe this is all that is required and insisted upon by God?

What we do have that satan does not, is the ability to grow in sanctification.
Grow in knowledge. You will not find grow in sanctification.

Valencia
Jun 15th 2013, 09:56 PM
So the word of truth fails?

You would be the one failing!

awestruckchild
Jun 15th 2013, 09:57 PM
There are a few who desire or experience the community of the Spirit. But these are spread out over a large area. There is very little concentration in the body at this time.

"The trumpeter stayed with me to sound the alarm.
Then I explained to the nobles, and officials, and all the people,
The work is very spread out and we are widely separated from each other along the wall.
When you hear the blast of the trumpet, rush to wherever it is sounding.
Then our God will fight for us!"
Neh 4:18-20

We don't have the trumpets, but we have something better - His voice!!!

Valencia
Jun 15th 2013, 09:57 PM
Grow in knowledge. You will not find grow in sanctification.

I already provided scripture describing "sanctifying" and how one becomes sanctified, there is nothing more I can do to help you see.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 09:57 PM
You would be the one failing!
Just like I said, the doctrine of man -works

Valencia
Jun 15th 2013, 09:59 PM
Just like I said, the doctrine of man -works

You will know them by their fruit.

You will know them who love The Lord by their obedience.

Faith without works is dead.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 10:04 PM
I already provided scripture describing "sanctifying" and how one becomes sanctified, there is nothing more I can do to help you see.These?

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Romans 6:19 certainly does not. It says this though
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
...............
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.


1Pet 2 says;
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood.
IT DOES NOT SAY
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, for salvation.

Sanctified FOR obedience and sprinkling of the blood. See that?

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 10:05 PM
You will know them by their fruit.

You will know them who love The Lord by their obedience.

Faith without works is dead.
Who has disputed this?

Valencia
Jun 15th 2013, 10:06 PM
"The trumpeter stayed with me to sound the alarm.
Then I explained to the nobles, and officials, and all the people,
The work is very spread out and we are widely separated from each other along the wall.
When you hear the blast of the trumpet, rush to wherever it is sounding.
Then our God will fight for us!"
Neh 4:18-20

We don't have the trumpets, but we have something better - His voice!!!
We are very spread out, there is much work to do. There are not enough workers, where are all the workers?

We find them far and few between, scattered sparsely, but seemingly not enough!

Valencia
Jun 15th 2013, 10:07 PM
Who has disputed this?

You have! I gave you a verse that says we yield and obey and this is the way to sanctification, yet you still do not see!

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 10:09 PM
After over 20 years and I still haven't found them. Why would God put a process that doesn't matter in the end in the equation. For the fun of it? Again, don't confuse growing in the knowledge of Christ with sanctification. They are not the same thing.

2Pe_3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 10:09 PM
You have! I gave you a verse that says we yield and obey and this is the way to sanctification, yet you still do not see!Where have I said

You will NOT know them by their fruit.

You will NOT know them who love The Lord by their obedience.

Faith without works is ALIVE.

??? Show me where I said any of those.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 10:12 PM
2Pe_3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.You Got It!!!!

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 10:12 PM
"The trumpeter stayed with me to sound the alarm.
Then I explained to the nobles, and officials, and all the people,
The work is very spread out and we are widely separated from each other along the wall.
When you hear the blast of the trumpet, rush to wherever it is sounding.
Then our God will fight for us!"
Neh 4:18-20

We don't have the trumpets, but we have something better - His voice!!!

Wow! Great verse! I was just saying this the other day...our God will fight for us

But this is the statement of the week..

The work is very spread out and we are widely separated from each other along the wall.

So true!!! Thanks Awe!:)

I can't rep you......yet!!!

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 10:13 PM
You Got It!!!!

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


As we grow into holiness we come into a fuller knowledge of Christ...as in knowing HIM not just more about Him.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 10:14 PM
You have! I gave you a verse that says we yield and obey and this is the way to sanctification, yet you still do not see!Not one verse of scripture says we are sanctified because we yield and obey. That hole you are digging is getting deeper.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 10:21 PM
As we grow into holiness we come into a fuller knowledge of Christ...No way! You have it backwards!

1Pet 2 says;
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood.
IT DOES NOT SAY
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, for salvation.

Sanctified FOR obedience and sprinkling of the blood. See that?

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.



as in knowing HIM not just more about Him.The knowledge of Christ is not knowing more about him.

awestruckchild
Jun 15th 2013, 10:25 PM
Not one verse of scripture says we are sanctified because we yield and obey. That whole you are digging is getting deeper.

There were many instructions in the OT of how something holy to God could become tainted and then of no use in the temple service.

If God calls something holy, then.......by God, it's holy!
But care had to be taken to not....knock the holiness off sumpin'.
There were careful instructions, such as the preists who were made unholy by association with a dead body, etc.

If the blood made something holy, care had to be taken and God's instructions had to be carefully followed.

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 10:26 PM
No way! You have it backwards!

1Pet 2 says;
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood.
IT DOES NOT SAY
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, for salvation.

Sanctified FOR obedience and sprinkling of the blood. See that?

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


The knowledge of Christ is not knowing more about him.

When we are faithful in little we get more....that is the process of sanctification. We grow in grace this way.


Mat_13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.



Mar_4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

episkopos
Jun 15th 2013, 10:27 PM
There were many instructions in the OT of how something holy to God could become tainted and then of no use in the temple service.

If God calls something holy, then.......by God, it's holy!
But care had to be taken to not....knock the holiness off sumpin'.
There were careful instructions, such as the preists who were made unholy by association with a dead body, etc.

Yes! Dead works defile holiness...

awestruckchild
Jun 15th 2013, 10:35 PM
So then, if God calls something holy, it is truly holy.
But if it gets dirty, it is no longer holy and set aside to the Lord.
It has to be cleaned again.
So the things and the people in the temple service only REMAINED holy if they followed God's commands.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 10:39 PM
When we are faithful in little we get more....that is the process of sanctification. We grow in grace this way.


Mat_13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.



Mar_4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. and you inject sanctification into those verses where exactly?

Did you received the Spirit by works or faith?
Do we walk by faith as we receive Christ (Col 2:6), or by sight?

Again, growing in grace and knowledge is scriptural, but it's never called sanctification. Sanctification is by faith just as Justification is.

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 10:42 PM
So then, if God calls something holy, it is truly holy.
But if it gets dirty, it is no longer holy and set aside to the Lord.
It has to be cleaned again.
So the things and the people in the temple service only REMAINED holy if they followed God's commands.and so like I said earlier, here we are again! Every thread of yours and episkopos' ends at the same place.
works
nothing new to see here! :wave:

Noeb
Jun 15th 2013, 10:45 PM
Like I ended the last thread I was in about a process of sanctification........
When you are at the judgement seat of Christ, are you going to say, eh....Lord, can I use my sanctification instead of yours?

awestruckchild
Jun 15th 2013, 11:24 PM
and so like I said earlier, here we are again! Every thread of yours and episkopos' ends at the same place.
works
nothing new to see here! :wave:

I am quite fine with saying they are the good works GOD prepared for us.
It is obvious that the Holy Spirit is a complete and utter necessity.
But what I will never be willing to say is that we are walking in the Spirit and so doing those good works prepared for us by God.....even if we aren't doing them!!!
I will never agree that you can sin in Christ, and I can't go for any of the nonsense that says I can, because it is a lie.
I surely can sin, but I can't do so when I am abiding and walking in the Spirit.
The one son said I will and then he didn't.
The other son said I won't and then he did.
According to the leaven of men, the first son is holy and positionally obedient and the second son is evil!!

Matt25 Brother
Jun 15th 2013, 11:45 PM
These don't say anything about a process of sanctification. You're reading your definition and doctrine into them.You continue to ignore the original languages (as I've pointed out) and context. You are "kicking against the goads" and it is a shame.


LOL, well you can join episkopos then. Not one verse you put forth says anything about sanctification being a process ...Whatever. Obviously they do. Can't help it if you're the only one that can't see them.


Yet, I can post verses that actually say we are already sanctified.See, you don't even pay attention to what anyone else says! I stated it is a three-stage process -- instant, ongoing, future -- and explained what those all mean. Yet you continue to ignore the fact I've satisfied your viewpoint as well as showing you the correctness of ours.

:B

Done here. God bless.

(PS: Refrain from using that smiley when addressing me, please)

episkopos
Jun 16th 2013, 01:25 AM
and you inject sanctification into those verses where exactly?

Did you received the Spirit by works or faith?
Do we walk by faith as we receive Christ (Col 2:6), or by sight?

Again, growing in grace and knowledge is scriptural, but it's never called sanctification. Sanctification is by faith just as Justification is.

..and we grow in faith... from faith to faith

episkopos
Jun 16th 2013, 01:28 AM
and you inject sanctification into those verses where exactly?

Did you received the Spirit by works or faith?
Do we walk by faith as we receive Christ (Col 2:6), or by sight?

Again, growing in grace and knowledge is scriptural, but it's never called sanctification. Sanctification is by faith just as Justification is.



Rom_6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom_6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

LandShark
Jun 16th 2013, 02:19 AM
2 cor 5:5 is not a good choice for you to use in this case, that verse essentially is saying we have been given the Holy Spirit as a deposit or guarantee, depending on the version you use. You have chosen a version that can be manipulated into supporting your view.

The NT was not written in Hebrew although you used Hebrew to define a word which was most likely written in Greek.

Greetings Val. Both 2 Cor. 1:22 AND 5:5 speak of the giving of the Spirit as a down payment or earnest... which means, there is more to come. It means that in Greek too! :D The writing of Torah (God's instructions) on the heart is being done, but it is a process that does not end until his return. In fact, it is part of the perfecting process, when His instructions/directions are part of WHO and WHAT we are, we will no longer have the ability to sin, His "will" will be written IN US. So the Spirit is not "all we will get," it is a deposit toward perfection. He is in us guiding us, comforting us, teaching us, UNTIL the perfection process is complete. And it currently is NOT. We might not WANT to sin, we might desire holiness and righteousness, but we can still succumb to it because we are very emotional beings! Blessings!

awestruckchild
Jun 16th 2013, 02:33 AM
and so like I said earlier, here we are again! Every thread of yours and episkopos' ends at the same place.
works
nothing new to see here! :wave:

It is Epi's thread.
I am only here because I heard the trumpet blast and ran here. :)

episkopos
Jun 16th 2013, 03:36 AM
It is Epi's thread.
I am only here because I heard the trumpet blast and ran here. :)

LOL...Awe! Even your jokes are prophetic now!!! :)

Noeb
Jun 16th 2013, 05:28 AM
I am quite fine with saying they are the good works GOD prepared for us.So is everyone. Your point?


It is obvious that the Holy Spirit is a complete and utter necessity.No one has disputed that.


But what I will never be willing to say is that we are walking in the Spirit and so doing those good works prepared for us by God.....even if we aren't doing them!!!No one has disputed that.


I will never agree that you can sin in Christ, and I can't go for any of the nonsense that says I can, because it is a lie.You don't know what In Christ means.


I surely can sin, but I can't do so when I am abiding and walking in the Spirit.That is the goal
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

but this is said to those that have been sinning and yet are In Christ.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
You'll just have to work that into your theology.

Noeb
Jun 16th 2013, 05:34 AM
You continue to ignore the original languages (as I've pointed out) and context. You are "kicking against the goads" and it is a shame.

Whatever. Obviously they do. Can't help it if you're the only one that can't see them.

See, you don't even pay attention to what anyone else says! I stated it is a three-stage process -- instant, ongoing, future -- and explained what those all mean. Yet you continue to ignore the fact I've satisfied your viewpoint as well as showing you the correctness of ours. Really, then where is the process? I've seen where we are sanctified and can be sanctified in experience, but a process has not been shown. Oh, and I love how you throw the language thing in there, as if anyone has even attempted that, or you could, or know I couldn't. That's called grasping for straws.

When you realize that what is being put forth is perfectionism, and that w/o it we are not completely saved, you'll wish you had not promoted it.

Noeb
Jun 16th 2013, 05:35 AM
..and we grow in faith... from faith to faithThere's only one and it only takes the smallest of seeds to begin and finish.

Noeb
Jun 16th 2013, 05:49 AM
Rom_6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom_6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.Seriously? If they had it all figured out why does he write what he does?
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Or is that because they "became the servants of righteousness" they can "now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness"?
Which came first and made the other possible? Their sanctification in Christ, by God, or what they do in their experience?

awestruckchild
Jun 16th 2013, 05:55 AM
So is everyone. Your point?

No one has disputed that.

No one has disputed that.

You don't know what In Christ means.

That is the goal
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

but this is said to those that have been sinning and yet are In Christ.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
You'll just have to work that into your theology.

My point was that you asked if I would say: can I use my sanctification instead of Yours, to God.
But how is it MY sanctification, (as in I cleansed and made my OWN self holy), if the works were prepared BY GOD, and if it is only by abiding and walking in HIS SPIRIT that it is even possible to do them?
So He prepared the good works, He guides me to do them by His Spirit.
Without Him, nothing would be possible.

As to your last part, people can dirty their clothing. People can take their clothing off and walk naked.

Noeb
Jun 16th 2013, 06:04 AM
My point was that you asked if I would say: can I use my sanctification instead of Yours, to God.
But how is it MY sanctification, (as in I cleansed and made my OWN self holy), if the works were prepared BY GOD, and if it is only by abiding and walking in HIS SPIRIT that it is even possible to do them?
So He prepared the good works, He guides me to do them by His Spirit.
Without Him, nothing would be possible.

As to your last part, people can dirty their clothing. People can take their clothing off and walk naked.The level of sanctification you reach is no where near His and what He has given you. We strive for resurrection perfection -Php 3:11-12.

awestruckchild
Jun 16th 2013, 06:21 AM
The level of sanctification we reach here depends on many things, but your opinion is not one of them.
You may be striving for resurrection perfection. Good for you.
I am not to that striving yet, because I have enough to keep me busy just following the Holy Spirit, learning to listen to Him, and continuing to abide in Him.

episkopos
Jun 16th 2013, 12:44 PM
Seriously? If they had it all figured out why does he write what he does?
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Or is that because they "became the servants of righteousness" they can "now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness"?
Which came first and made the other possible? Their sanctification in Christ, by God, or what they do in their experience?


What is buried deep within us must come forth into our lives so that others can witness it. The holiness within must become holy conduct.


Php_3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.


2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

1Pe_1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; (conduct)
1Pe_1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Heb_12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb_12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

ProDeo
Jun 16th 2013, 02:18 PM
Heb_12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb_12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
When it's about Hebrew chapter 12 what about verse 4?

4 - Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. (KJV)
4 - In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. (ESV)

All a Christian needs to know.

Part of holiness, part of the race.

Noeb
Jun 16th 2013, 02:32 PM
The level of sanctification we reach here depends on many things, but your opinion is not one of them.Who said it was?


You may be striving for resurrection perfection. Good for you.
I am not to that striving yet, because I have enough to keep me busy just following the Holy Spirit, learning to listen to Him, and continuing to abide in Him.I knew I shouldn't use words most don't understand.

Noeb
Jun 16th 2013, 02:36 PM
What is buried deep within us must come forth into our lives so that others can witness it. The holiness within must become holy conduct.No one has disputed that but that's what the gospel does.

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Mar 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mar 4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
Mar 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

awestruckchild
Jun 16th 2013, 02:36 PM
When it's about Hebrew chapter 12 what about verse 4?

4 - Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. (KJV)
4 - In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. (ESV)

All a Christian needs to know.

Part of holiness, part of the race.


Hi prodeo
Will you expound a bit?
I couldn't catch the point you were trying to make.

LandShark
Jun 16th 2013, 02:42 PM
The level of sanctification you reach is no where near His and what He has given you. We strive for resurrection perfection -Php 3:11-12.

Personally, and no disrespect intended toward you at all Noeb, but I think the word "sanctification" has become a seminary word designed to write a thesis on and make some people look smarter than they are. The word means "to make holy" or "to make pure." The "sanctification process" is "the process of being made holy." That's it, God making us set apart for His purpose, that is sanctification. And since He is doing the work and we aren't, I wouldn't say we are less or more holy than anything else HE MADE HOLY. I wouldn't say anything, I would just be grateful! Blessings!

Noeb
Jun 16th 2013, 03:32 PM
Personally, and no disrespect intended toward you at all Noeb, but I think the word "sanctification" has become a seminary word designed to write a thesis on and make some people look smarter than they are. The word means "to make holy" or "to make pure." The "sanctification process" is "the process of being made holy." That's it, God making us set apart for His purpose, that is sanctification. And since He is doing the work and we aren't, I wouldn't say we are less or more holy than anything else HE MADE HOLY. I wouldn't say anything, I would just be grateful! Blessings!Someone gets it!!!!! :thumbsup:

(no disrespect taken. I didn't bring sanctification into the thread)

ProDeo
Jun 16th 2013, 03:50 PM
Hi prodeo
Will you expound a bit?
I couldn't catch the point you were trying to make.
I will give it a try.

Hebr 12:4 - In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. (ESV)

Go back in time to the moment of your conversion. What changed immediately there after? Your (sudden!) wish not to sin anymore. Do you still remember? I do :inlove: Where did that sudden wish come from? Of course we know that now, from the Holy Spirit Who now dwells in us believers, the new creature in Christ Paul talked about. The old creature who lived in sin or was fighting in his own strength against sin (Rom 6 & 7) is dead. Now there is the Holy Spirit Who gives us victory over sin (Rom 8) because He planted his live saving seed into us --> NOT to sin.

Hebrew 12:4 is a good reminder of our new calling, life is full of temptations and we should resist falling into them and our new life has given us victory over sin by the Holy Spirit, our Helper and Comforter as long as we don't quench the Spirit (1 Tess 5:19).

awestruckchild
Jun 16th 2013, 04:04 PM
I will give it a try.

Hebr 12:4 - In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. (ESV)

Go back in time to the moment of your conversion. What changed immediately there after? Your (sudden!) wish not to sin anymore. Do you still remember? I do :inlove: Where did that sudden wish come from? Of course we know that now, from the Holy Spirit Who now dwells in us believers, the new creature in Christ Paul talked about. The old creature who lived in sin or was fighting in his own strength against sin (Rom 6 & 7) is dead. Now there is the Holy Spirit Who gives us victory over sin (Rom 8) because He planted his live saving seed into us --> NOT to sin.

Hebrew 12:4 is a good reminder of our new calling, life is full of temptations and we should resist falling into them and our new life has given us victory over sin by the Holy Spirit, our Helper and Comforter as long as we don't quench the Spirit (1 Tess 5:19).

Oh! Well, you have spoken well!
Yes, I do remember that desire to not want to sin!
I remember how well He led me and showed me that all of the things I was worrying about were not the way He was going to work in me, but that He was concerned about what was in my heart - anger, excuses for myself, pride concerning how others treated me, etc.
You have taken me back almost 7 years! I don't know how that is, because it seems like yesterday!

Valencia
Jun 16th 2013, 04:20 PM
Personally, and no disrespect intended toward you at all Noeb, but I think the word "sanctification" has become a seminary word designed to write a thesis on and make some people look smarter than they are. The word means "to make holy" or "to make pure." The "sanctification process" is "the process of being made holy." That's it, God making us set apart for His purpose, that is sanctification. And since He is doing the work and we aren't, I wouldn't say we are less or more holy than anything else HE MADE HOLY. I wouldn't say anything, I would just be grateful! Blessings!

I agree LandShark, you are describing the first and foremost positional separation, we are Holy when we first believe. There is also progressive sanctification (some call the process of sanctification), Paul talked about this in 1 Thess 5:23, "may God sanctify you wholly", this is a more practical application to our lives as we transform to the image of Christ and finally when we go from "glory to glory" it is the ultimate separation from sin!

When something is set apart for God, it has to remain Holy, but we know in our lives we can and do sin, unless one of us has been completely cleaned of sin once and for all, the sanctification part is the cleaning out of that which is not Holy. Sin is not Holy. If we find ourselves sinning, can we claim we are sanctified completely?

LandShark
Jun 16th 2013, 04:34 PM
I agree LandShark, you are describing the first and foremost positional separation, we are Holy when we first believe.

Just throwing this in to consider.... many look at the Acts 15 letter to the gentiles to be the end all, a destination rather than seeing it for what it was, a starting point. The letter doesn't tell us not to kill, not to serve other gods, so it is NOT conclusive, it is not all that would ever be expected of us. What it was was enough, enough to set us apart (holy means "to set apart") from our ungodly or pagan now ex-brethren and we would then be expected to study and grow. What was commanded in that letter was enough to differentiate us from things "common" but not so much that we get choked off and can't function. So your right, when we first come in faith believing we are being set apart (made holy, the process of sanctification) from the world around us. Blessings.

ProDeo
Jun 16th 2013, 04:47 PM
You have taken me back almost 7 years! I don't know how that is, because it seems like yesterday!
Yes, that. Best thing in life that can happen to us ;)

awestruckchild
Jun 16th 2013, 05:14 PM
Yes!
What woman doesn't remember when she first met her Husband and began learning about Him and getting to know Him better!!!!