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atruthseeker
Jun 19th 2013, 03:25 PM
Do you need a man to teach you? This verse should be enough to answer that question. 1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

RabbiKnife
Jun 19th 2013, 03:32 PM
You really need to read that verse within the context of 1 John and the gnostic problem that John was addressing to the Church.

It may be just a bit more substantive that is seen at first blush. For instance, look a verse or two in advance, and you will see that John is specifically addressing the dangers of false teachers that were trying to lead them astray. We know that the gnostics claimed special hidden knowledge that only they could teach to the uninitiated.


This is what John is pointing out.

atruthseeker
Jun 19th 2013, 03:35 PM
Please use other thread. Not sure why but thread double posted.

Mod can you lock one and move posts?

clarkthompson
Jun 22nd 2013, 02:06 PM
We should be taught not by man but from the Word, if man using the Word for teaching we can learn and grow in Christ. If a man is up there teaching without the Spirit guiding him, he will not be able to teach truth.

divaD
Jun 22nd 2013, 04:04 PM
Do you need a man to teach you? This verse should be enough to answer that question. 1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.






Let's look at this from different perspectives. Before I joined this board I used to converse with Arnold Murray students. All of them were convinced Arnold Murray is the greatest Bible teacher to have graced this current age. Is it really a good thing then, that these students are being taught by man? I would say not.

OTOH, if one has good discernment to begin with, then I see nothing wrong with being taught of men, since a smart person would use discernment and check Scriptures to determine whether the teacher's teachings are lining up with Scripture. But not everyone has good discernment to begin with. Then we're back to the former, where these types could easily be led astray by the likes of Arnold Murray, etc.

The question is, what does that verse you provided mean in context?

ChangedByHim
Jun 22nd 2013, 05:04 PM
Sorry, wrong thread. Haha.

IMINXTC
Jun 22nd 2013, 05:14 PM
John states here that you have no need for a man to teach you who or where God is now that God dwells in you. He does not imply that teaching and learning, such as doctrine etc, is not a necessary element of the Christian life.

Valencia
Jun 22nd 2013, 05:37 PM
Wasn't there another thread on the same subject?

God gave teachers to edify and build up the Body until we all reach the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

We all need one another and the gifts each one of us receives is FOR the Body and not for ourselves - including those who are gifted to teach. I think it's prideful to indicate we do not need one part of the Body.

Can the eye say to the hand "I do not need you"?

I wrote this in the other thread as well.

divaD
Jun 22nd 2013, 05:46 PM
God gave teachers to edify and build up the Body until we all reach the knowledge of Jesus Christ.



With 'until' being the keyword, when would you conclude this knowledge of Jesus Christ is reached? Do you think this is meaning on an individual basis, or do you believe this is talking about the body of Christ as a whole?

ChangedByHim
Jun 22nd 2013, 05:50 PM
With 'until' being the keyword, when would you conclude this knowledge of Jesus Christ is reached? Do you think this is meaning on an individual basis, or do you believe this is talking about the body of Christ as a whole?

No! Emphatically No!!! We, nor any of us, have reached this stature. To think so is pride.

Valencia
Jun 22nd 2013, 05:51 PM
With 'until' being the keyword, when would you conclude this knowledge of Jesus Christ is reached? Do you think this is meaning on an individual basis, or do you believe this is talking about the body of Christ as a whole?

I think it's an on-going occurrence.

What are you thoughts on it? Do you believe as I? Or have we already attained?

divaD
Jun 22nd 2013, 06:17 PM
No! Emphatically No!!! We, nor any of us, have reached this stature. To think so is pride.



Logically, since this is tied in with teachers, and that when Christ returns teachers will no longer be needed in the same sense they are needed now, wouldn't that then mean this knowledge of Jesus Christ would have to happen before Jesus returns? BTW, I'm just thinking out loud and asking questions here. I have not formed an opinion one way or the other as of yet, in regards to when this should occur.

divaD
Jun 22nd 2013, 06:21 PM
I think it's an on-going occurrence.

What are you thoughts on it? Do you believe as I? Or have we already attained?

If it's an ongoing experience, wouldn't that mean no one ever comes to the knowledge of Jesus Christ? Not saying it isn't an ongoing experience, basically pondering by asking questions like this.

Valencia
Jun 22nd 2013, 06:24 PM
If it's an ongoing experience, wouldn't that mean no one ever comes to the knowledge of Jesus Christ? Not saying it isn't an ongoing experience, basically pondering by asking questions like this.

No, there will be a point in which we all reach it. If you continue on the verse it says we will attain to the full measure of Christ, so until that happens it will be ongoing.

divaD
Jun 22nd 2013, 06:42 PM
No, there will be a point in which we all reach it. If you continue on the verse it says we will attain to the full measure of Christ, so until that happens it will be ongoing.

Could you remind me which passage we are discussing so that I can look at it in context? I'm familiar with the passage, except I can't recall exactly which passage it is offhand. I tend to lose focus these days. Maybe from all the extra stress in my life?

Valencia
Jun 22nd 2013, 06:47 PM
Could you remind me which passage we are discussing so that I can look at it in context? I'm familiar with the passage, except I can't recall exactly which passage it is offhand. I tend to lose focus these days. Maybe from all the extra stress in my life?

I am sorry you are experiencing stress :(

Ephesians 4.

ChangedByHim
Jun 22nd 2013, 06:48 PM
Logically, since this is tied in with teachers, and that when Christ returns teachers will no longer be needed in the same sense they are needed now, wouldn't that then mean this knowledge of Jesus Christ would have to happen before Jesus returns? BTW, I'm just thinking out loud and asking questions here. I have not formed an opinion one way or the other as of yet, in regards to when this should occur.
IMO our knowledge of Christ - knowing Him (not about Him), will expand throughout eternity. What that means for teachers I don't know, but I must say that I wouldn't mind sitting down and listening to Paul teach :)

divaD
Jun 22nd 2013, 07:06 PM
Ephesians 4.

Thanks. It was right there in front of me the whole time. Duh!! on my part, lol.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


This pretty much looks like the majority of the context. Verse 11 tells us what God gave. Verse 12 tells us the reasons. Verse 13 tells until which point those in verse 11 are still needed.

Let's look at this from another perspective then, in regards to the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.


2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Verse 20 seems to indicate that the persons being described here have already attained the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, except that they are again entangled therein, and overcome.
Wouldn't this indicate then, that Ephesians 4:13 happens on an individual basis, and that those in Ephesians 4:11 are the means God uses to get one to that point? The question then is, are those in Ephesians 4:11 still needed for the ones that have already attained the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ?

divaD
Jun 22nd 2013, 07:10 PM
IMO our knowledge of Christ - knowing Him (not about Him), will expand throughout eternity.

No arguments there.