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ChangedByHim
Jun 20th 2013, 02:59 PM
I blogged this on my web site a while back. I thought I'd post it here for discussion (I realize that it's a little long-winded for a post).

Vindication of the Righteousness of God

Most sermons preached on the Cross focus on the substitutionary work of Christ; that is to say, He took our place and paid the price for our sin that we may be forgiven. However, there is another aspect of the Cross that is very important for our understanding of the finished work of the Cross in this great blood covenant. The centerpiece of this other aspect is found in Romans chapter three.

Romans 3:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The Law was given to condemn the world of sin (3:19). Under the Old Covenant, there was a system of animal sacrifices for the nation of Israel. The blood of innocent animals was used as a type of the blood of Jesus, until the perfect Lamb of God – Jesus – came. Hebrews 10:4 says that it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sin.

Once a year on the Day of Atonement, the high priest entered the Holy of Holies with the blood of animal sacrifice and placed it on the mercy seat covering the Ark of the Covenant. This was to provide atonement for sins of Israel for one year. However, the word atonement simply means “to cover.” Their sins were never removed, only covered or bypassed due to the forbearance of God.

Romans chapter 3, our text, speaks of the forbearance of God in relation to sins that are past. Verse 25 says, “To declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.” The word for “remission” here in the Greek (paresis) simply means “passing over, neglecting, disregarding.” In other words, God neglected the sin of His people in that He did not judge their sin. He instead allowed for the blood of bulls and of goats, which could not take away sin, to atone for sin. It is worth mentioning that this is the only time that this Greek word (paresis) appears in the Bible. This usage is not to be confused with the word translated “remission” elsewhere in the New Testament (aphesis). The word aphesis means to “release from bondage” and is used 17 times in the New Testament, including Matthew 26:28 when Jesus said, “This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for the remission (aphesis) of sins.”

Romans 3:25, Remission (paresis) = passing over, neglecting, disregarding
Matthew 26:28, Remission (aphesis) = release from bondage
For this reason, because God had passed over sin, God needed to “declare His righteousness” (v. 26). A holy and righteous Judge had allowed sin to go unpunished based on the promissory note of Christ’s work on the Cross – based on the blood that would be spilled.

The word forbearance in verse 25 is the Greek word anocha and means “self-restraint, tolerance.” God had tolerated the sins of His people, allowing for the animal sacrifices under the Mosaic Law to cover over the sins of Israel. In his preaching, the Apostle Paul actually said that during that time period that God had “winked at sin,” meaning He had excused it for the time-being (Acts 17:30). But now, in the fullness of times, God sent forth His Son to declare His righteousness.

God, the Righteous Judge, had allowed sin to “pile up,” if you will. But now through the offering of His Son, true justification was provided to all who believe in the finished work of Jesus on the Cross. As verse 26 points out, this is the only way that God could be just (holy and righteous) AND the justifier of sinful men. It can only happen through the blood of Jesus. To be justified means to be rendered righteous in the eyes of God.

Oh what a price that was paid to secure our redemption and justification! Jesus, in His Own body, bore the wrath of God against sin – all sin, past, present and future – on the Cross. In Matthew 27, Jesus cried out on the Cross in this state of abandonment:

Matthew 27:
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

In order for Jesus to pay the full penalty for the sin of all mankind, the Father had to pour out His judgment on the Cross and forsake His only Son, who was in the bosom of the Father for al eternity past. Oh what love did Jesus display as He hung on that Cross in our place.

The price has been pain in full! The blood of Jesus has ransomed us from the prison house of sin! We don’t have to bear the judgment of God for our sin when we come to the Cross and place our faith in Jesus.

The righteousness and holiness of God had been vindicated on the Cross. We are now made to be the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus through the shedding of His blood.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

episkopos
Jun 20th 2013, 07:23 PM
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


Here Peter is pointing out the example of Jesus Christ on the cross....that we should follow Him through this with Him in order to become dead to sins...and thereby be able to present the righteousness of God through our example.


The actual wording of ....

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

...is not entirely accurate to the whole tenor of the NT.

A closer to the wording translation would be...

For He has purged sin from us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

So the cross of Christ not only purges the penalty from sin but also the sin itself....the cross kills the sin nature....in order that we might be raised in newness of life with Him and walk in the very righteousness of God.

Valencia
Jun 20th 2013, 07:57 PM
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


Here Peter is pointing out the example of Jesus Christ on the cross....that we should follow Him through this with Him in order to become dead to sins...and thereby be able to present the righteousness of God through our example.


The actual wording of ....

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

...is not entirely accurate to the whole tenor of the NT.

A closer to the wording translation would be...

For He has purged sin from us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

So the cross of Christ not only purges the penalty from sin but also the sin itself....the cross kills the sin nature....in order that we might be raised in newness of life with Him and walk in the very righteousness of God.

Do you mean when we become a Christian we should not sin anymore because all sin is purged once and for all from us?

episkopos
Jun 20th 2013, 08:04 PM
Do you mean when we become a Christian we should not sin anymore because all sin is purged once and for all from us?

Sin is always possible...but not advisable. It is possible to not sin anymore...but then we would have to be IN an environment where this is both practiced and encouraged.

But John says...IF we sin we have an Advocate before the Father.

If we understood the purpose of God in regards the cross of Christ I believe we would live far differently than we do. Our lifestyle reflects what we make of the gospel...or what we don't make of it.

If we truly are crucified with Christ then we are also raised with Him in newness of life. Then, anything is possible for us. The more we lose the more we gain. :)

The fire and the sword that Jesus hoped for will only reveal more of the life implanted within us. This is the will of God that this life be a light to the world. But there are few who will be willing to lose the amount it takes to be such a carrier of life.

Grace to you

ChangedByHim
Jun 20th 2013, 08:28 PM
It is possible to not sin anymore...but then we would have to be IN an environment where this is both practiced and encouraged.

1 John 1:8 says that if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I'm gonna take the Holy Scripture's word for it. :)

episkopos
Jun 20th 2013, 08:38 PM
1 John 1:8 says that if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I'm gonna take the Holy Scripture's word for it. :)

If you only knew how many times we've done this... ;)

John also says...

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I'll take the word as truth as well...

RabbiKnife
Jun 20th 2013, 08:52 PM
So, we need to track a step further.

We have two believers that are expressing interpretations, based on verses from the Bible, that appear to express directly contradictory statements.

By what mechanism shall we resolve the apparent inconsistency?

RabbiKnife
Jun 20th 2013, 09:05 PM
Can one of you Greek scholars take a look at the construction?

1 John 1 looks at sin as a noun, and the verb is related to having or possessing? Anyone want to parse the tense?

1 John 3:7 looks at sin as a verb as in "is sinning not"? Anyone care to pare that one.

1 JOhn 3:8 goes back to sin as a noun, with something being made or done. Verb tense on that one?

Valencia
Jun 20th 2013, 09:06 PM
So, we need to track a step further.

We have two believers that are expressing interpretations, based on verses from the Bible, that appear to express directly contradictory statements.

By what mechanism shall we resolve the apparent inconsistency?
We can all rest assured the lesson we've learned: a pig on roller skates would not be the way to go. ;) :)

RabbiKnife
Jun 20th 2013, 09:07 PM
We can all rest assured the lesson we've learned: a pig on roller skates would not be the way to go. ;) :)

Correct. Highly ineffective mode of transport for our porcine pals...


Sort of like grabbing singular verses from their context....

Valencia
Jun 20th 2013, 09:14 PM
Sin is always possible...but not advisable. It is possible to not sin anymore...but then we would have to be IN an environment where this is both practiced and encouraged.

But John says...IF we sin we have an Advocate before the Father.

If we understood the purpose of God in regards the cross of Christ I believe we would live far differently than we do. Our lifestyle reflects what we make of the gospel...or what we don't make of it.

If we truly are crucified with Christ then we are also raised with Him in newness of life. Then, anything is possible for us. The more we lose the more we gain. :)

The fire and the sword that Jesus hoped for will only reveal more of the life implanted within us. This is the will of God that this life be a light to the world. But there are few who will be willing to lose the amount it takes to be such a carrier of life.

Grace to you

For a young believer to not sin would be a miracle, yet all things are possible with God, I have never witnessed it, it is those who are practicing, learning to abide who fall more frequently. As we mature, sin becomes less frequent, some people call this the process of sanctification. We are sanctified at the same time we are being sanctified. This is how I see it.

Is sinless possible? With God all things are possible!

Grace to you. :)

episkopos
Jun 20th 2013, 09:15 PM
So, we need to track a step further.

We have two believers that are expressing interpretations, based on verses from the Bible, that appear to express directly contradictory statements.

By what mechanism shall we resolve the apparent inconsistency?

We look at the whole counsel of God on the matter with an honest appreciation for the message whether it be beneficial to our present stance or not.

The word interprets the word to a large extent.

Valencia
Jun 20th 2013, 09:16 PM
Correct. Highly ineffective mode of transport for our porcine pals...
.
Absolutely! There must be a better way.....

Pray for starters! Abide in Christ! Seek His Kingdom and His righteousness first.....

The Holy Spirit will lead us into all Truth. :)

episkopos
Jun 20th 2013, 09:17 PM
For a young believer to not sin would be a miracle, yet all things are possible with God, I have never witnessed it, it is those who are practicing, learning to abide who fall more frequently. As we mature, sin becomes less frequent, some people call this the process of sanctification. We are sanctified at the same time we are being sanctified. This is how I see it.

Is sinless possible? With God all things are possible!

Grace to you. :)

This is the only possible stance one can take from a balanced view of the scriptures. I commend you for this! :)

RabbiKnife
Jun 20th 2013, 09:22 PM
This still doesn't deal with the supposed contradiction found in 1 John.

John says, "If we say we have no sin, we are a liar."

John also says, "If we sin, we have an advocate"

John also says, "If we are born of God we cannot sin."

So clearly, John was confused, right?

Just kidding. Seriously. What does the Greek verb forms say about the various approaches John uses to sin.

And I won't by the "mature believer/ baby believer line."

John clearly knew how to address babies, young men, and mature believers when we wanted to express different things to each group.

episkopos
Jun 20th 2013, 09:33 PM
This still doesn't deal with the supposed contradiction found in 1 John.

John says, "If we say we have no sin, we are a liar."

John also says, "If we sin, we have an advocate"

John also says, "If we are born of God we cannot sin."

So clearly, John was confused, right?

Just kidding. Seriously. What does the Greek verb forms say about the various approaches John uses to sin.

And I won't by the "mature believer/ baby believer line."

John clearly knew how to address babies, young men, and mature believers when we wanted to express different things to each group.



John is saying this...

We all need to come to Christ
All have sinned
We need to turn from sin asking forgiveness
He is telling us this so we don't sin anymore

We need to abide in Christ
We need to walk in love

If we have never stopped sinning then we don't yet know the Lord
Jesus came to break the bondage to sin



Pretty consistent with every other book in the NT.

ChangedByHim
Jun 20th 2013, 10:41 PM
If you only knew how many times we've done this... ;)

John also says...

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I'll take the word as truth as well...

If you are born of God, you do not practice sin. It is not God's will to sin. But to say that in practice you are capable of being sinless until death is not truth. Really doesnt matter how many times you've "done this."

ChangedByHim
Jun 20th 2013, 10:42 PM
John is saying this...

We all need to come to Christ
All have sinned
We need to turn from sin asking forgiveness
He is telling us this so we don't sin anymore

We need to abide in Christ
We need to walk in love

If we have never stopped sinning then we don't yet know the Lord
Jesus came to break the bondage to sin



Pretty consistent with every other book in the NT.

When was the last time you sinned?

ChangedByHim
Jun 20th 2013, 10:57 PM
If we have never stopped sinning then we don't yet know the Lord




Apparently the Apostle Paul didn't know the Lord.

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. (I Timothy 1:15 NKJV)

"I am" present tense.

episkopos
Jun 21st 2013, 12:13 AM
If you are born of God, you do not practice sin. It is not God's will to sin. But to say that in practice you are capable of being sinless until death is not truth. Really doesnt matter how many times you've "done this."

Do you think that Christianity is just one more religion of the world that has no real connection to God? Are we really left destitute and powerless? Is the flesh stronger than God?

episkopos
Jun 21st 2013, 12:17 AM
Apparently the Apostle Paul didn't know the Lord.

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. (I Timothy 1:15 NKJV)

"I am" present tense.

You can take that to mean He was a big carouser if you wish. I think he meant that he was a persecutor of the brethren...and he remembered that always.

We must all realize the blindness we are capable of. In that way we are able to progress from there. Paul also said he was dead in Christ...and that he no longer lived but Christ in Him was his life.

Again one can use the entirety of the word to understand the context...or pick certain verses here and there that seem to say something contradictory to the whole tenor of the bible.

episkopos
Jun 21st 2013, 12:20 AM
When was the last time you sinned?

LOL...again the very same reasoning over and over...

I sin when I don't abide in Christ. This is our human condition. Christ is our only perfection. So we seek always to walk in His power. Be filled with the Spirit and sin not.

Valencia
Jun 21st 2013, 01:11 AM
LOL...again the very same reasoning over and over...

I sin when I don't abide in Christ. This is our human condition. Christ is our only perfection. So we seek always to walk in His power. Be filled with the Spirit and sin not.

This is a good answer.

In similar discussions I've noticed the attention gets put onto the poster, eg. question such as "do you sin?", etc, instead of the attention going to the One who can help us overcome our sin. There is hope to overcome sin, nothing is too big for our God.

ChangedByHim
Jun 21st 2013, 03:27 AM
Are you Christianity is just one more religion of the world that has no real connection to God? Are we really left destitute and powerless? Is the flesh stronger than God?
Are you judging my Christianity?

You can take that to mean He was a big carouser if you wish. I think he meant that he was a persecutor of the brethren...and he remembered that always.

We must all realize the blindness we are capable of. In that way we are able to progress from there. Paul also said he was dead in Christ...and that he no longer lived but Christ in Him was his life.

Again one can use the entirety of the word to understand the context...or pick certain verses here and there that seem to say something contradictory to the whole tenor of the bible.

Big carouser? Really? Did I say that Paul was a big carouser. My friend, the closer you get to God, the more you see in yourself that needs changed. That's called walking in the light as He is in the light and the blood of Jesus Christ cleansing us for all sin.

As for picking certain verses, there are plenty more. Is that how you defend your position when you have no real answer?

Here's a challenge for you: find me one person in the Bible other than Christ who was without sin. I will be waiting for you to post their name *crickets*


LOL...again the very same reasoning over and over...

I sin when I don't abide in Christ. This is our human condition. Christ is our only perfection. So we seek always to walk in His power. Be filled with the Spirit and sin not.

Yes you dismiss me because you have explained your position to the uneducated in the past. You are the one making the claim that we can live our life without ever sinning in thought, word or deed. I think it's a valid question to ask about your sins, or the absence thereof.

Btw, you may want to consider the area of pride as it relates to this subject.

ChangedByHim
Jun 21st 2013, 03:32 AM
Btw, I wonder if anyone has any comments on the actual subject of the thread - vindication of the righteousness of God?

ProDeo
Jun 21st 2013, 10:17 AM
Btw, I wonder if anyone has any comments on the actual subject of the thread - vindication of the righteousness of God?
Oki doki, a poor allegory.

A man in a drunken state of mind drives his car into a building causing severe damage. In court the judge declares him guilty as charged and sentences him to pay for all damage, a penalty of 1 million dollar. The man pleads guilty but he is also desperate since he can never pay all back.

Then in the courtroom a stranger stands up and says, "Judge, I will pay the 1 million dollar, is that okay with you?" And the judge says, "Sure, your ransom is accepted because Justice needs to done and apparently YOU ARE ABLE to provide justice", then the judge turns to the convicted and says, "You are free to go".

episkopos
Jun 21st 2013, 11:22 AM
Btw, I wonder if anyone has any comments on the actual subject of the thread - vindication of the righteousness of God?

The vindication really is that we have the example of Christ-like character.

episkopos
Jun 21st 2013, 11:35 AM
Are you judging my Christianity?


Big carouser? Really? Did I say that Paul was a big carouser. My friend, the closer you get to God, the more you see in yourself that needs changed. That's called walking in the light as He is in the light and the blood of Jesus Christ cleansing us for all sin.

As for picking certain verses, there are plenty more. Is that how you defend your position when you have no real answer?

Here's a challenge for you: find me one person in the Bible other than Christ who was without sin. I will be waiting for you to post their name *crickets*



Yes you dismiss me because you have explained your position to the uneducated in the past. You are the one making the claim that we can live our life without ever sinning in thought, word or deed. I think it's a valid question to ask about your sins, or the absence thereof.

Btw, you may want to consider the area of pride as it relates to this subject.

The important thing us that we see what the calling of God is...and that we are able to believe that all things are possible. Being dead to sin means the shackles are broken and we are free to serve God unhindered.

Does this walk without sin exist? Certainly!! We are all in this race to attain the full measure of Christ. Better to run thinking it possible we can win rather than already setting our sights on what is merely feasible in human strength.

ChangedByHim
Jun 21st 2013, 11:55 AM
Certainly, we are no longer servants of sin (Rom. 6).

The mature Christian's battle is not against the outward sins of the flesh, but against attitudes, thoughts, omission, etc.

Scooby_Snacks
Jun 21st 2013, 12:31 PM
Oki doki, a poor allegory.

A man in a drunken state of mind drives his car into a building causing severe damage. In court the judge declares him guilty as charged and sentences him to pay for all damage, a penalty of 1 million dollar. The man pleads guilty but he is also desperate since he can never pay all back.

Then in the courtroom a stranger stands up and says, "Judge, I will pay the 1 million dollar, is that okay with you?" And the judge says, "Sure, your ransom is accepted because Justice needs to done and apparently YOU ARE ABLE to provide justice", then the judge turns to the convicted and says, "You are free to go".

I like your example ProDeo---I might add that the One who paid the debt also suffered being ostracized in the guilty parties place, felt the shame and misrey even though he had done nothing to be ashamed of, and in giving the million dollars, gave everything that he had.

Noeb
Jun 22nd 2013, 03:19 AM
I blogged this on my web site a while back. I thought I'd post it here for discussion (I realize that it's a little long-winded for a post).

Vindication of the Righteousness of God

Most sermons preached on the Cross focus on the substitutionary work of Christ; that is to say, He took our place and paid the price for our sin that we may be forgiven. However, there is another aspect of the Cross that is very important for our understanding of the finished work of the Cross in this great blood covenant. The centerpiece of this other aspect is found in Romans chapter three.

Romans 3:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The Law was given to condemn the world of sin (3:19). Under the Old Covenant, there was a system of animal sacrifices for the nation of Israel. The blood of innocent animals was used as a type of the blood of Jesus, until the perfect Lamb of God – Jesus – came. Hebrews 10:4 says that it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sin.

Once a year on the Day of Atonement, the high priest entered the Holy of Holies with the blood of animal sacrifice and placed it on the mercy seat covering the Ark of the Covenant. This was to provide atonement for sins of Israel for one year. However, the word atonement simply means “to cover.” Their sins were never removed, only covered or bypassed due to the forbearance of God.

Romans chapter 3, our text, speaks of the forbearance of God in relation to sins that are past. Verse 25 says, “To declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.” The word for “remission” here in the Greek (paresis) simply means “passing over, neglecting, disregarding.” In other words, God neglected the sin of His people in that He did not judge their sin. He instead allowed for the blood of bulls and of goats, which could not take away sin, to atone for sin. It is worth mentioning that this is the only time that this Greek word (paresis) appears in the Bible. This usage is not to be confused with the word translated “remission” elsewhere in the New Testament (aphesis). The word aphesis means to “release from bondage” and is used 17 times in the New Testament, including Matthew 26:28 when Jesus said, “This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for the remission (aphesis) of sins.”

Romans 3:25, Remission (paresis) = passing over, neglecting, disregarding
Matthew 26:28, Remission (aphesis) = release from bondage
For this reason, because God had passed over sin, God needed to “declare His righteousness” (v. 26). A holy and righteous Judge had allowed sin to go unpunished based on the promissory note of Christ’s work on the Cross – based on the blood that would be spilled.

The word forbearance in verse 25 is the Greek word anocha and means “self-restraint, tolerance.” God had tolerated the sins of His people, allowing for the animal sacrifices under the Mosaic Law to cover over the sins of Israel. In his preaching, the Apostle Paul actually said that during that time period that God had “winked at sin,” meaning He had excused it for the time-being (Acts 17:30). But now, in the fullness of times, God sent forth His Son to declare His righteousness.

God, the Righteous Judge, had allowed sin to “pile up,” if you will. But now through the offering of His Son, true justification was provided to all who believe in the finished work of Jesus on the Cross. As verse 26 points out, this is the only way that God could be just (holy and righteous) AND the justifier of sinful men. It can only happen through the blood of Jesus. To be justified means to be rendered righteous in the eyes of God.

Oh what a price that was paid to secure our redemption and justification! Jesus, in His Own body, bore the wrath of God against sin – all sin, past, present and future – on the Cross. In Matthew 27, Jesus cried out on the Cross in this state of abandonment:

Matthew 27:
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

In order for Jesus to pay the full penalty for the sin of all mankind, the Father had to pour out His judgment on the Cross and forsake His only Son, who was in the bosom of the Father for al eternity past. Oh what love did Jesus display as He hung on that Cross in our place.

The price has been pain in full! The blood of Jesus has ransomed us from the prison house of sin! We don’t have to bear the judgment of God for our sin when we come to the Cross and place our faith in Jesus.

The righteousness and holiness of God had been vindicated on the Cross. We are now made to be the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus through the shedding of His blood.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.



Btw, I wonder if anyone has any comments on the actual subject of the thread - vindication of the righteousness of God?So what does this mean?

Rom 3:25 ........to declare his righteousness.................
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness..........

ChangedByHim
Jun 22nd 2013, 04:12 AM
So what does this mean?

Rom 3:25 ........to declare his righteousness.................
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness..........

Are you asking why it's stated twice? They are the same words in the original. Verse 25 is speaking directly to sins that are past - under the old covenant. Verse 26 reiterates in the context of being both Just and the Justifier.

Noeb
Jun 22nd 2013, 05:51 AM
Are you asking why it's stated twice?No. Verse 25-26 is saying it was righteous for God to pass over sins and forbear to punish, and put forth Christ as a propitiation to be received by faith. Am I missing something?

Hepzibah
Jun 22nd 2013, 09:18 AM
Romans chapter 3, our text, speaks of the forbearance of God in relation to sins that are past. Verse 25 says, “To declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.” The word for “remission” here in the Greek (paresis) simply means “passing over, neglecting, disregarding.” In other words, God neglected the sin of His people in that He did not judge their sin. He instead allowed for the blood of bulls and of goats, which could not take away sin, to atone for sin. It is worth mentioning that this is the only time that this Greek word (paresis) appears in the Bible. This usage is not to be confused with the word translated “remission” elsewhere in the New Testament (aphesis). The word aphesis means to “release from bondage” and is used 17 times in the New Testament, including Matthew 26:28 when Jesus said, “This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for the remission (aphesis) of sins.”


There is no mention of sins in the future that are forgiven. It is past sins and from henceforth, we are expected to walk in newness of life. Life in the Spirit, that John talks about as one where a man sins not.

But what about him saying that if we say we are without sin, we lie?

We need to take it in context in order to avoid saying that he contradicted himself. He was referring to the Gnostics, who taught that man could be righteous in spirit and still sin in the flesh, (which is nowadays recognised by 'imputed righteousness'. John devotes the greatest part of his epistle to the confirmation and enforcement of his doctrine.

We can see that John is comparing walking in the light to walking in darkness ie walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit. He is describing two different opposing states which corresponds perfectly with the teaching of the Apostle Paul when he talks about 'carnal' or fleshy believers against those who were walking in the Spirit.. In verses 7 and 9, John says that the benefit of walking in the light are:-

1)We have fellowship with one another in the unity of the Spirit (agreement)
2)By confessing our sins we will be forgiven
3)We will then be cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all unrighteousness and sin.

Whereas if we walk in the flesh:-

1)We are deceived and remain in our sin
2)There is no truth in us
3)We make God a liar by denying our need for forgiveness for walking in the flesh.

So John is saying that it is only when we are walking in the darkness that is, still walking in the flesh, that we are blind to our need of coming to Christ for His cleansing from ALL sin. The letter is to believers and not un-believers as stated previously. And believers can fall into the error of walking in the flesh as Paul demonstrated to the Galatians who thought that they could go on to maturity or perfection through the works of the law and not through faith.

Those who were being misled by the Gnosticism and today by the preachers of 'positional righteousness' were walking in darkness because they were still sinning and did not see their need of the cleansing which was provided on the cross. So they thought that they were acceptable as they were, but John says that they walk in darkness. But if we see our need for cleansing from ALL sin and come to Christ (again) for forgiveness, then He will be able to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness (not just the sin in question please note) So it is these ones who are saying wrongly that they have no sin not the ones who have come to Christ and HAVE been cleansed fromALL unrighteousness.

John goes on in the rest of his epistle to show that those who do carry on in sin (but say they have no further need of cleansing) are NOT in CHRIST. He stresses his point against the Gnostic heresy Little children let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous 3:7 and this is the test i.e. as He is righteous so must we be not just in position or as a hope for the future but as a present reality that we must be as Christ, without sin if we are walking in the light.

But whoso keepth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected 2:5

My little children these things I write unto you that ye sin not 2:1

Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not whosoever sinneth not hath not seen Him neither known Him 3:6

He that commiteth sin is of the devil 3:8

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin 3:9

Noeb
Jun 22nd 2013, 01:00 PM
There is no mention of sins in the future that are forgiven. It is past sins and from henceforth, we are expected to walk in newness of life."sins that are past" are sins before the Cross (under the old economy). Future sins are indeed mentioned. Christ is our "propitiation through faith". All sin is dealt with "by the law of faith" and we are therefore Justified entirely.
"a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law"

As you can see, we are going from a time past under the law, to NOW. A theme through the book. Law to Grace.
"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law"

Rom 3:2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.
.............
......
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since God is one--who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Now, we can then argue what it means to be justified, what Grace is, and how Abraham was justified by works, etc.... but Paul hasn't gotten there. Here, we are simply and completely Justified by faith, just as Abraham was before he did work.

ChangedByHim
Jun 22nd 2013, 01:41 PM
No. Verse 25-26 is saying it was righteous for God to pass over sins and forbear to punish, and put forth Christ as a propitiation to be received by faith. Am I missing something?

No that's not what he's saying. He is saying that BECAUSE God had overlooked sin in the past (OT sacrificial system), that God's righteousness needed to be vindicated. This was done on the cross when God fully judged ever sin ever committed. This is the reason that God is both just and the justifier.

Noeb
Jun 22nd 2013, 01:44 PM
No that's not what he's saying. He is saying that BECAUSE God had overlooked sin in the past (OT sacrificial system), that God's righteousness needed to be vindicated. This was done on the cross when God fully judged ever sin ever committed. This is the reason that God is both just and the justifier.Right. :thumbsup: That's what I said, though I guess from the opposite direction? .....Or something? God was not considered righteous for passing over sin. Get it? Maybe this will help......

JFB Commentary
Rom 3:25-26
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation — or “propitiatory sacrifice.”

through faith in his blood — Some of the best interpreters, observing that “faith upon” is the usual phrase in Greek, not “faith in” Christ, would place a “comma” after “faith,” and understand the words as if written thus: “to be a propitiation, in His blood, through faith.” But “faith in Christ” is used in Gal_3:26 and Eph_1:15; and “faith in His blood” is the natural and appropriate meaning here.

to declare his righteousness for the remission — rather, “pretermission” or “passing by.”

of sins — “the sins.”

that are past — not the sins committed by the believer before he embraces Christ, but the sins committed under the old economy, before Christ came to “put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”

through the forbearance of God — God not remitting but only forbearing to punish them, or passing them by, until an adequate atonement for them should be made. In thus not imputing them, God was righteous, but He was not seen to be so; there was no “manifestation of His righteousness” in doing so under the ancient economy. But now that God can “set forth” Christ as a “propitiation for sin through faith in His blood,” the righteousness of His procedure in passing by the sins of believers before, and in now remitting them, is “manifested,” declared, brought fully out to the view of the whole world. (Our translators have unfortunately missed this glorious truth, taking “the sins that are past” to mean the past sins of believers - committed before faith - and rendering, by the word “remission,” what means only a “passing by”; thus making it appear that “remission of sins” is “through the forbearance of God,” which it certainly is not).

Gadgeteer
Jun 24th 2013, 07:15 PM
And we are to BE righteous, even as HE is righteous.

"Righteousness" is not just a whitewash applied over our sins; we are to walk in Him and overcome sin in the world.


1 John 1:8 says that if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I'm gonna take the Holy Scripture's word for it. :)

Amen. Yet we are no longer in Paul's struggle of Rom7; we have matured to chapter 8, and understand that as we walk in the Spirit, the Spirit empowers us to defeat sin.

If we walk in the flesh we must die; but if by the Spirit we put to death the flesh, we live. No waivers, no exceptions, no excuses.

That's why topics like "OSAS" are so critically important; Paul said in Col2:6-8 "as you have received Christ SO WALK IN Him, guarding against deceivers".

We abide in Christ, constantly; daily we lay aside the old sinful man and put on the new godly man and be renewed in the spirit of our minds, Eph4:22-24.

Abide in Him; KEEP ourselves in His love. Jude20-21!

Draw near to Him, and He will draw near to us! (Anybody know where that is?)

Aviyah
Jun 24th 2013, 09:05 PM
Something that has bugged me is...

Why are people still condemned if the judgment has already been passed? Since Jesus took the punishment for the sin of EVERYONE, why isn't everyone saved?

RabbiKnife
Jun 24th 2013, 09:12 PM
Something that has bugged me is...

Why are people still condemned if the judgment has already been passed? Since Jesus took the punishment for the sin of EVERYONE, why isn't everyone saved?

Because hell is not about payment for sin.

Hell is about people choosing not to be with God.

Aviyah
Jun 24th 2013, 09:16 PM
Because hell is not about payment for sin.

Then explain The Great Day of Judgment, for "the wages of sin is death."

Rev 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

RabbiKnife
Jun 24th 2013, 09:18 PM
Easy:

Did you did or did you did not believe in Jesus Christ for salvation and for eternal relationship with God.


Only one question asked of every unbeliever.

They all answer "no."

God then honors their free will choice to not spend eternity with him.

Aviyah
Jun 24th 2013, 09:51 PM
God then honors their free will choice to not spend eternity with him.

That doesn't answer the question...

Gadgeteer
Jun 24th 2013, 11:57 PM
Something that has bugged me is...

Why are people still condemned if the judgment has already been passed? Since Jesus took the punishment for the sin of EVERYONE, why isn't everyone saved?

Hi, Aviyah! :wave:

Jesus is the propitiation for sins of the whole world --- no way to make "holos kosmos" into anything but the entire world. 1Jn2:2.

But it's provision. Please see Rom5:17-19, with reference to 12. In exactly the same way as condemnation came to all men, justification also came to all men. Same way, and same measure. ("SO THEN condemnation to all men, EVEN SO justification to all men").

But note that condemnation came conditionally --- to BE condemned, men must sin --- and Rom5:12 asserts that all men sinned (met the condition).

Likewise, justification came to all men, but it came conditionally --- to BE justified, verse 17 says men have to RECEIVE the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.

Make sense?


Look at 2Pet2:1 --- the following verses in that chapter describe just how rotten those "false teachers" were; but verse one states Jesus-the-Master BOUGHT them. It's in many other verses --- 1Tim4:10, God is the Savior of ALL MEN (provision!), malista/specially/above-all believers (conditioned on belief!).


Then explain The Great Day of Judgment, for "the wages of sin is death."

Rev 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.And yet, "By grace through faith have you been saved, NOT as a result of works!" (Eph2:8)

So is it by works, or not?

Not.

Jesus said in Matt7:16-18 (as I remember), "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good; therefore you will KNOW them by their fruit (works!)."

The rest of that Eph2:8-10 passage states "We are His workmanship, created to walk in good works which God prepared beforehand that we might walk IN them."

It's the same in Philip2:12-13 --- though we "work out our salvation with fear and trembling", the next breath says that it's GOD who works THROUGH us, both to will and work according to His good purpose.

God works through us, by means of our faith. Our faith, His good works THROUGH us.


Thus, in places like Rev20:13, and Rom2:6-8, the works do not actually SAVE us, but good works reveal a heart that WAS saved and indwelt by Jesus and the Spirit!

Make sense???

(And note that no verse states "evil works condemn"; in places like Jn3:18 & 1Jn5:10 it's UNBELIEF that condemns; unbelief, which will result in bad works...)

:-)

Aviyah
Jun 25th 2013, 12:29 AM
Okay, I think I understand.

But, this sounds like Christ really didn't die in place of all sinners, instead for sinners who would later accept redemption. Maybe I am confused as to why the punishment on the cross was for everyone, yet the punishment must be repeated for people who do not believe.

For instance, if someone commits a crime and they are pardoned, isn't that pardoning permanent? Why would they later be put in jail for the same crime? This makes it sound as if the original pardoning was a farce. Or, is a "pardoning" required after every sin? If so, wouldn't Christ have to die every day? And if the whole world is included in this pardoning, why is it still judged for the sins it committed?

I guess my main concern is that "dying for all sins" sounds, to me, like "taking the punishment for all sins." So, I don't see why further punishment is necessary. It makes the first judgment irrelevant.



And yet, "By grace through faith have you been saved, NOT as a result of works!" (Eph2:8)

Oh, I didn't mean that we could be saved through works - I was just proving that hell is judgment for sin/evil works for the lost who "refuse" redemption.

Gadgeteer
Jun 25th 2013, 06:03 AM
Okay, I think I understand.

But, this sounds like Christ really didn't die in place of all sinners, instead for sinners who would later accept redemption. Maybe I am confused as to why the punishment on the cross was for everyone,Hi again. :-)

It's for everyone --- "abundance of grace" as Paul calls it in Rom5:17. But it still must be received.


yet the punishment must be repeated for people who do not believe.Not sure I understand you; "repeated"? In Heb6:4-6 those who are blatantly unrepentant, "crucify Christ anew to themselves" --- it is as if His death must be repeated because of their continual sin.


For instance, if someone commits a crime and they are pardoned, isn't that pardoning permanent?Ahhh, now you're discussing "OSAS" (Once Saved Always Saved). Consider the man in Heb10:29; WAS he once sanctified by Jesus' blood? But now DOES he scorn the very blood that once sanctified him, trample Jesus who once saved him, and insult the Spirit who once indwelt him?

It's the same with the guy in 2Pet1:7 --- how was he "purified from sins", and how could he now be "immoral/ungodly/unloving/unkind"?


Why would they later be put in jail for the same crime? This makes it sound as if the original pardoning was a farce. Or, is a "pardoning" required after every sin? If so, wouldn't Christ have to die every day? And if the whole world is included in this pardoning, why is it still judged for the sins it committed?It's all a question of what it means to be saved. We are not saved by lack of sins, nor are we condemned FOR sins. We are saved by Christ-in-us; but that position can be measured BY our fruits --- if we can become "again entangled in former defilements and be overcome by them" (2Pet2:20-22), then we would have turned away from Jesus, wouldn't we?

Thus, passages like Jude20-21: "Building yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in His love".

Abide in Him, and in His teachings; as we do we save ourselves. (1Tim4:16).


I guess my main concern is that "dying for all sins" sounds, to me, like "taking the punishment for all sins." So, I don't see why further punishment is necessary. It makes the first judgment irrelevant.There are only two "real-estates" in the Universe; in Christ, and in sin. The entire letter of Hebrews is chapter after chapter warning against apostasy; but see especially 3:8-14, warning us to be careful lest deceitful sin harden our hearts to falling away from God.

You see, sin is always a choice for us. In 1Cor10:1-13 (especially 12-13) we're admonished not to crave evil things, not to be immoral or idolaters; and we're told that God graciously gives us an escape from temptation, but permits us to sin or to take his escape.

If we sin do we forfeit salvation? Of course not; it's not SINS that condemn us!

But after we sin we have the exact same choice before us --- to sin AGAIN, or to throw ourselves in shameful remorse at His feet begging His forgivenss (1Jn1:8-9), and for his help to overcome sin the next time.

You see it's never the SIN that condemns us, but the "again".


Oh, I didn't mean that we could be saved through works - I was just proving that hell is judgment for sin/evil works for the lost who "refuse" redemption.

Agreed; and our works exhibit a heart that IS saved, or is not. Matt7:16-18!

:-)

ProDeo
Jun 25th 2013, 09:42 AM
For instance, if someone commits a crime and they are pardoned, isn't that pardoning permanent? Why would they later be put in jail for the same crime? This makes it sound as if the original pardoning was a farce. Or, is a "pardoning" required after every sin? If so, wouldn't Christ have to die every day? And if the whole world is included in this pardoning, why is it still judged for the sins it committed?
You can look at it from a different point of view. The man in jail is pardoned. He is free to go. And yet he decides to stay in jail. Isn't that what really happens?