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Bnjmn
Jun 21st 2013, 09:09 PM
Forgive me if this is in the wrong forum (feel free to move it to the proper one)

Recently I had a discussion with a friend about Jesus Christ, and how believing in him, accepting him as your personal savior is the only way to be saved and to reach heaven. He replied with "Well, aren't you lucky to be born in the perfect time, and the perfect place for that to happen"

That got me thinking. When in biblical history did this take effect? When did belief in Christ become the only way to get your salvation? Was it with the birth of Christ? With his death and Resurrection? Or does it go all the way back to the beginning of creation, when it was prophesied that there would be a savior sent to the earth?

The world is huge, even back in the time of Christ. How far spread was life across the globe, and is it truly fair to punish those who may never have heard the good news, or learned of the prophesied coming of Christ perhaps due in part to the message not being passed down along the generations or not being aware of the birth, death and Resurrection of Christ?

Just curious, and would love to hear others thoughts

Jade99
Jun 21st 2013, 09:58 PM
I believe it goes all the way back to creation.

We needed a savior, because of Adam's sin. I would think that Adam and Eve had to have told someone what God said in Gen 3:15; which was passed on until Christ revealed himself. (The only time in life the telephone game was accurate and correct...cool beans)

Anyhoo, people in the OT time believed in the promised Messiah, probably with only word of mouth as evidence, but it was still enough to know that he exist and he's coming to save us. Now at that time, they by faith looked towards the Cross and they were also under the law, so it was by faith and their works. When Jesus died on the cross, and paid for the present, past, and future sins of all of mankind, his blood was the atonement for our sins. Heb 9:22 (sumarizing) without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. When something is atone, is means to forgive. So after Christ burial and resurrection, we were now under grace. So just like probably, Adam and Eve spread the word that a messiah was coming, it was written that Jesus told his disciples to spread his gospel, which was to let all men know that he is our Lord and Savior. So, now we look back to the cross, because we believe through faith that it happened. We believe through faith that fact that Jesus died on the cross and was buried and rose again on the 3rd day. This also meant that because Christ shedded his own blood to cover the atonement, we don't have to do anything but believe that through faith. That's why when people add that we still must be good and do this or do that or we'll lose our salvation, I correct them because that's not what the bible says and that's adding works to the grace. Our sins are already nailed to the cross. So, when we confessed that we were sinners and that we needed Jesus and we believed that he died for our sins, along with believe that he was buried and is a risen savior, in that moment we were no longer apart of his world and we no longer had that born given connection with Satan; but we were bought into the family of God through Christ and we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truths.

The trinity of God (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit) has always been at work from creation til the present time and onward. So, the plan of Salvation was always planned and in effect, even in the OT time. We are just lucky to have been born into this time period to be able to tell people about what Christ did for us and to be the bride of Christ. When Revelation 20:6 says Blessed and holy is he who takes part in the first resurrection.

I remember my Pastor long ago said that no matter what or where we are or were, Christ gospel is being preached and taught. And it's being taught and preached through the body of Christ.

Walley10
Jun 21st 2013, 10:06 PM
The Bible says Jesus was "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world".

Bnjmn
Jun 21st 2013, 10:16 PM
I believe it goes all the way back to creation.

We needed a savior, because of Adam's sin. I would think that Adam and Eve had to have told someone what God said in Gen 3:15; which was passed on until Christ revealed himself. (The only time in life the telephone game was accurate and correct...cool beans)

Anyhoo, people in the OT time believed in the promised Messiah, probably with only word of mouth as evidence, but it was still enough to know that he exist and he's coming to save us. Now at that time, they by faith looked towards the Cross and they were also under the law, so it was by faith and their works. When Jesus died on the cross, and paid for the present, past, and future sins of all of mankind, his blood was the atonement for our sins. Heb 9:22 (sumarizing) without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. When something is atone, is means to forgive. So after Christ burial and resurrection, we were now under grace. So just like probably, Adam and Eve spread the word that a messiah was coming, it was written that Jesus told his disciples to spread his gospel, which was to let all men know that he is our Lord and Savior. So, now we look back to the cross, because we believe through faith that it happened. We believe through faith that fact that Jesus died on the cross and was buried and rose again on the 3rd day. This also meant that because Christ shedded his own blood to cover the atonement, we don't have to do anything but believe that through faith. That's why when people add that we still must be good and do this or do that or we'll lose our salvation, I correct them because that's not what the bible says and that's adding works to the grace. Our sins are already nailed to the cross. So, when we confessed that we were sinners and that we needed Jesus and we believed that he died for our sins, along with believe that he was buried and is a risen savior, in that moment we were no longer apart of his world and we no longer had that born given connection with Satan; but we were bought into the family of God through Christ and we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truths.

The trinity of God (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit) has always been at work from creation til the present time and onward. So, the plan of Salvation was always planned and in effect, even in the OT time. We are just lucky to have been born into this time period to be able to tell people about what Christ did for us and to be the bride of Christ. When Revelation 20:6 says Blessed and holy is he who takes part in the first resurrection.

I remember my Pastor long ago said that no matter what or where we are or were, Christ gospel is being preached and taught. And it's being taught and preached through the body of Christ.

Yes, but, in the hundreds of years, there have been those that had turned their backs on the promised coming, and thus not passed on those teachings. So, perhaps, there were those that never learned of the promised coming, and those who did believe in the promised coming that never knew or heard that he came. Not everyone lived in that surrounding area so the possibility of those who were not aware of his coming that had died. Are their souls lost because the message was never delivered to them back in the early first century or two?

Now a days, with evangelists traveling the world spreading the good news, chances are everyone has at least heard of Jesus Christ. But what about back when Christ first walked on the planet and died. His message was "whoever believes in me will have eternal life" and that he was "the only way to God". So, I guess my point was, what happened to those in the remote places around the world who never heard of his coming after he came? Were they given a pass on that because they had not heard, thus not having a chance to believe and accept?

Walls
Jun 22nd 2013, 03:34 AM
Forgive me if this is in the wrong forum (feel free to move it to the proper one)

Recently I had a discussion with a friend about Jesus Christ, and how believing in him, accepting him as your personal savior is the only way to be saved and to reach heaven. He replied with "Well, aren't you lucky to be born in the perfect time, and the perfect place for that to happen"

That got me thinking. When in biblical history did this take effect? When did belief in Christ become the only way to get your salvation? Was it with the birth of Christ? With his death and Resurrection? Or does it go all the way back to the beginning of creation, when it was prophesied that there would be a savior sent to the earth?

The world is huge, even back in the time of Christ. How far spread was life across the globe, and is it truly fair to punish those who may never have heard the good news, or learned of the prophesied coming of Christ perhaps due in part to the message not being passed down along the generations or not being aware of the birth, death and Resurrection of Christ?

Just curious, and would love to hear others thoughts

You are correct. By far NOT everybody will hear the gospel. But the problem is not with the bible. The problem is that since Constantine married the Church and State in about 313 AD, the prevailing doctrine, a Roman one, is that if one is good one goes to a "Celestial Lodge" of bliss, and if one is evil, one goes to "hell", a place undefined because they also teach that the earth will be annihilated. After the reformation, except for few voices, the reformed Churches embraced this age old doctrine but modified it to be what it is today. That is; "believe in Jesus and go to heaven, or if you don't you go to hell."

Despite the fact that of the approximate 290 mentions of the words "heaven", "heavens" and "heavenlies" in the New Testament, and the fact that not one single verse containing these words says this, Christians worldwide hold to this cherished fable. But if the bible is taken literally, accurately and word-true, the story is quite different.

The end of the bible should be the best clue. It ends with a heavenly City, which is made of Jews (the gates), Christians (the foundations and walls), has Christ and the glory of God, is for ruling the earth and is the same shape as the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle and Temple where God lived, ON EARTH. It comes from heaven to earth, showing its nature and origin, but also showing its final resting place. And this City is the dwelling place of God, Christ, Jew and Christian, and CERTAIN of the nations can visit it. By Revelation Chapter 20, after Christ has reigned on earth for 1'000 years, ALL men are resurrected. That is, they have a body and live on a renewed earth (lit. Greek) on which this City abides.

When God chose Abraham and his seed to "bless all the families of the earth", it entailed three things.

A new government on earth that would be righteous and profit all men (2nd Pet.3:13)
A restored creation that would not be subject to corruption anymore (Romans Chapter 8)
The giving of the Holy Spirit to them who wanted it, that is, men could partake of the divine nature (2nd Pet.1:4)


Nowhere is the promise given that all men would hear the gospel. But nowhere does it say that all men go to "hell". Only those men who actively oppose God, and/or overthrow their consciences to do evil, go to the Lake of Fire (Isa.66:22-24; Rom.2:14-16). Notice that all judgements in the bible are based on works (Matt.25:31-43; Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10; Rev.20:13), not the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

If you are able to overthrow the fable of men going to heaven for believing in Jesus Christ, the rest is a matter of reading the bible. If you desperately need a future in heaven, and wish to embrace this hope, even a book on this will not help. If you have the time, and energy to research, this matter was thrashed out about 6 months ago on this Forum with quite some energetic debate. But to date, despite multiple challenges, no one has yet come up with a verse, or two, that shows men's destiny is heaven. Much more, God made man for the earth (Gen.1:26-28) and He hasn't changed His mind (Psalm 8.4-9; Hebrews 2:5-8). Our Lord Jesus and His overcoming saints will rule this earth forever (Rev.22:5).

Noeb
Jun 22nd 2013, 01:20 PM
You are correct. By far NOT everybody will hear the gospel. But the problem is not with the bible. The problem is that since Constantine married the Church and State in about 313 AD, the prevailing doctrine, a Roman one, is that if one is good one goes to a "Celestial Lodge" of bliss, and if one is evil, one goes to "hell", a place undefined because they also teach that the earth will be annihilated. After the reformation, except for few voices, the reformed Churches embraced this age old doctrine but modified it to be what it is today. That is; "believe in Jesus and go to heaven, or if you don't you go to hell."

Despite the fact that of the approximate 290 mentions of the words "heaven", "heavens" and "heavenlies" in the New Testament, and the fact that not one single verse containing these words says this, Christians worldwide hold to this cherished fable. But if the bible is taken literally, accurately and word-true, the story is quite different.

The end of the bible should be the best clue. It ends with a heavenly City, which is made of Jews (the gates), Christians (the foundations and walls), has Christ and the glory of God, is for ruling the earth and is the same shape as the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle and Temple where God lived, ON EARTH. It comes from heaven to earth, showing its nature and origin, but also showing its final resting place. And this City is the dwelling place of God, Christ, Jew and Christian, and CERTAIN of the nations can visit it. By Revelation Chapter 20, after Christ has reigned on earth for 1'000 years, ALL men are resurrected. That is, they have a body and live on a renewed earth (lit. Greek) on which this City abides.

When God chose Abraham and his seed to "bless all the families of the earth", it entailed three things.

A new government on earth that would be righteous and profit all men (2nd Pet.3:13)
A restored creation that would not be subject to corruption anymore (Romans Chapter 8)
The giving of the Holy Spirit to them who wanted it, that is, men could partake of the divine nature (2nd Pet.1:4)


Nowhere is the promise given that all men would hear the gospel. But nowhere does it say that all men go to "hell". Only those men who actively oppose God, and/or overthrow their consciences to do evil, go to the Lake of Fire (Isa.66:22-24; Rom.2:14-16). Notice that all judgements in the bible are based on works (Matt.25:31-43; Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10; Rev.20:13), not the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

If you are able to overthrow the fable of men going to heaven for believing in Jesus Christ, the rest is a matter of reading the bible. If you desperately need a future in heaven, and wish to embrace this hope, even a book on this will not help. If you have the time, and energy to research, this matter was thrashed out about 6 months ago on this Forum with quite some energetic debate. But to date, despite multiple challenges, no one has yet come up with a verse, or two, that shows men's destiny is heaven. Much more, God made man for the earth (Gen.1:26-28) and He hasn't changed His mind (Psalm 8.4-9; Hebrews 2:5-8). Our Lord Jesus and His overcoming saints will rule this earth forever (Rev.22:5).and there it is! :thumbsup:

clarkthompson
Jun 22nd 2013, 01:45 PM
Putting faith in the Word has always lead to man's righteousness. Word became flesh, this is Jesus after His birth. All salvation is by faith in the Word but salvations was thru the Word dieing on the cross because, those were righteous had faith in the Word as Christ died they were saved.

Boo
Jun 23rd 2013, 09:22 AM
You are correct. By far NOT everybody will hear the gospel. But the problem is not with the bible. The problem is that since Constantine married the Church and State in about 313 AD, the prevailing doctrine, a Roman one, is that if one is good one goes to a "Celestial Lodge" of bliss, and if one is evil, one goes to "hell", a place undefined because they also teach that the earth will be annihilated. After the reformation, except for few voices, the reformed Churches embraced this age old doctrine but modified it to be what it is today. That is; "believe in Jesus and go to heaven, or if you don't you go to hell."

Despite the fact that of the approximate 290 mentions of the words "heaven", "heavens" and "heavenlies" in the New Testament, and the fact that not one single verse containing these words says this, Christians worldwide hold to this cherished fable. But if the bible is taken literally, accurately and word-true, the story is quite different.

The end of the bible should be the best clue. It ends with a heavenly City, which is made of Jews (the gates), Christians (the foundations and walls), has Christ and the glory of God, is for ruling the earth and is the same shape as the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle and Temple where God lived, ON EARTH. It comes from heaven to earth, showing its nature and origin, but also showing its final resting place. And this City is the dwelling place of God, Christ, Jew and Christian, and CERTAIN of the nations can visit it. By Revelation Chapter 20, after Christ has reigned on earth for 1'000 years, ALL men are resurrected. That is, they have a body and live on a renewed earth (lit. Greek) on which this City abides.

When God chose Abraham and his seed to "bless all the families of the earth", it entailed three things.

A new government on earth that would be righteous and profit all men (2nd Pet.3:13)
A restored creation that would not be subject to corruption anymore (Romans Chapter 8)
The giving of the Holy Spirit to them who wanted it, that is, men could partake of the divine nature (2nd Pet.1:4)


Nowhere is the promise given that all men would hear the gospel. But nowhere does it say that all men go to "hell". Only those men who actively oppose God, and/or overthrow their consciences to do evil, go to the Lake of Fire (Isa.66:22-24; Rom.2:14-16). Notice that all judgements in the bible are based on works (Matt.25:31-43; Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10; Rev.20:13), not the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

If you are able to overthrow the fable of men going to heaven for believing in Jesus Christ, the rest is a matter of reading the bible. If you desperately need a future in heaven, and wish to embrace this hope, even a book on this will not help. If you have the time, and energy to research, this matter was thrashed out about 6 months ago on this Forum with quite some energetic debate. But to date, despite multiple challenges, no one has yet come up with a verse, or two, that shows men's destiny is heaven. Much more, God made man for the earth (Gen.1:26-28) and He hasn't changed His mind (Psalm 8.4-9; Hebrews 2:5-8). Our Lord Jesus and His overcoming saints will rule this earth forever (Rev.22:5).

It is not unusual for people to latch on to the idea of spending eternity in Heaven. We fail to think of much beyond tomorrow most of the time anyway. We learn about being with Christ when we are absent from the body, and then we stop reading. That is all that some need to know. Everything will be good after that point, so we stop reading.

Then someone mentions the New Jerusalem and we are lost. I think we stop listening as well.

However, your words:
Notice that all judgements in the bible are based on works (Matt.25:31-43; Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10; Rev.20:13), not the knowledge of Jesus Christ. can be seen as saying that commitment to Jesus Christ has nothing to do with salvation. It seems that you are saying that it is all about how good we are while on Earth.

Is that what you are saying?

claybevan
Jun 23rd 2013, 10:44 AM
You are correct. By far NOT everybody will hear the gospel. But the problem is not with the bible. The problem is that since Constantine married the Church and State in about 313 AD, the prevailing doctrine, a Roman one, is that if one is good one goes to a "Celestial Lodge" of bliss, and if one is evil, one goes to "hell", a place undefined because they also teach that the earth will be annihilated. After the reformation, except for few voices, the reformed Churches embraced this age old doctrine but modified it to be what it is today. That is; "believe in Jesus and go to heaven, or if you don't you go to hell."

Despite the fact that of the approximate 290 mentions of the words "heaven", "heavens" and "heavenlies" in the New Testament, and the fact that not one single verse containing these words says this, Christians worldwide hold to this cherished fable. But if the bible is taken literally, accurately and word-true, the story is quite different.

The end of the bible should be the best clue. It ends with a heavenly City, which is made of Jews (the gates), Christians (the foundations and walls), has Christ and the glory of God, is for ruling the earth and is the same shape as the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle and Temple where God lived, ON EARTH. It comes from heaven to earth, showing its nature and origin, but also showing its final resting place. And this City is the dwelling place of God, Christ, Jew and Christian, and CERTAIN of the nations can visit it. By Revelation Chapter 20, after Christ has reigned on earth for 1'000 years, ALL men are resurrected. That is, they have a body and live on a renewed earth (lit. Greek) on which this City abides.

When God chose Abraham and his seed to "bless all the families of the earth", it entailed three things.

A new government on earth that would be righteous and profit all men (2nd Pet.3:13)
A restored creation that would not be subject to corruption anymore (Romans Chapter 8)
The giving of the Holy Spirit to them who wanted it, that is, men could partake of the divine nature (2nd Pet.1:4)


Nowhere is the promise given that all men would hear the gospel. But nowhere does it say that all men go to "hell". Only those men who actively oppose God, and/or overthrow their consciences to do evil, go to the Lake of Fire (Isa.66:22-24; Rom.2:14-16). Notice that all judgements in the bible are based on works (Matt.25:31-43; Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10; Rev.20:13), not the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

If you are able to overthrow the fable of men going to heaven for believing in Jesus Christ, the rest is a matter of reading the bible. If you desperately need a future in heaven, and wish to embrace this hope, even a book on this will not help. If you have the time, and energy to research, this matter was thrashed out about 6 months ago on this Forum with quite some energetic debate. But to date, despite multiple challenges, no one has yet come up with a verse, or two, that shows men's destiny is heaven. Much more, God made man for the earth (Gen.1:26-28) and He hasn't changed His mind (Psalm 8.4-9; Hebrews 2:5-8). Our Lord Jesus and His overcoming saints will rule this earth forever (Rev.22:5).

Another :thumbsup: from me too.

Bnjmn
Jun 23rd 2013, 12:21 PM
However, your words: can be seen as saying that commitment to Jesus Christ has nothing to do with salvation. It seems that you are saying that it is all about how good we are while on Earth.

Is that what you are saying?

I have always been taught that it was commitment to Christ that leads to salvation, and not your works.

Ephesians 2:8-9
New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I have always taken that as you cannot earn your way into heaven

Walls
Jun 23rd 2013, 08:25 PM
However, your words: can be seen as saying that commitment to Jesus Christ has nothing to do with salvation. It seems that you are saying that it is all about how good we are while on Earth.

Is that what you are saying?

In a recent (maybe last year) thread on "who was written in the Lamb's book of life", debate raged energetically on this Forum. There is much in this thread to answer you. But for newcomers, here is a short summary.

But first, it was encouraging that readers read those verses on the judgment seat of Christ for Jew, Christian and the nations, and realize that at each judgement (which starts with the Christians - 1st Pet.4:17), works are judged. So what does the believer escape from compared to the Jew and the nations - both unbelievers?

The answer lies in what man was made for. Man was made a vessel to contain God, His life and His power so as to;

Display God (be in His image and likeness)
Be Christ's Bride (a help "meet" or "up to the standard of" Christ)
Subdue and Rule the earth (a matter of authority and power)
Fence about and Bring to Order a Garden of fellowship between God and man (a matter of building with divine attributes)


If any man attains to these four things he enters a state of enjoyment known only to the divine nature of God. If any man does not attain to these things he suffers the loss of this high standard of bliss. If any man does not attain to these things AND incurs God's wrath, he experiences a desperate lack of well-being called "perdition" or "destruction" in scripture (lit. Greek).

The condition for reaching the peak of bliss, or "well-being", is to partake of God's divine nature AND be found in His presence and approval. It is called ENTERING "the joy of the Lord" (Matt.25:21-23), or the supreme and eternal pleasure an man can enjoy of God's presence (Ps.16:11, 36:8). The condition for reaching the lowest degraded state of perdition is to be a fallen, unregenerate man who went against God actively (Isa.66:22-24) and who is driven away from God into active and eternal pain ("depart...ye cursed... everlasting fire" - Matt.25:41).

To reach the first mentioned complete bliss is to be fully saved. Full salvation is when the spirit of man is regenerated in rebirth by faith in the completed works of Christ (Jn.3:6), the soul of man is transformed into the image of Christ by a cooperation of man denying himself and the working of the Holy Spirit (Matt.10:39, 16:25 etc + 2nd Cor.3:18), and the body of this man partake of the "first resurrection." The Greek word for "first" does not mean first in time, but "first" in importance, and it is to be gained by effort (Phil.3:11; Rev.20:6).

The Jew and members of the nations can reach bliss, but at the human level. When Israel is restored at our Lord Jesus Christ's return, they will enjoy all that a man can enjoy. That is, the produce of their Land, no wars, no death, peace, blessings, big harvests, prosperity and the knowledge that they are the leading and favored nation on earth with Christ dwelling in their midst. Likewise, when men of the nation are all finally resurrected, they live on a renewed (or pristine) earth with no more curse (work and childbearing pains), no more war, righteous and incorruptible government, no more death, and they may visit God in the New Jerusalem (Rev.21:26) on this pristine earth.

Those who were judged by the One Who has all the facts, our Lord Jesus, and found to be enemies of God and His purposes, will be consigned to a state of eternal "lack of well-being", that is, physical and psychological suffering. Their "worm" (which eats the insides) and their "fire" (which causes excruciating pain on the outside) will never be quenched throughout eternity future (Isa.66:24). In their case God makes good His promise of Matthew 10:28. Both the body and soul suffer in Gehenna (rendered "hell" in some translations).

Finally, it stands to reason that a Christian can believe and be born again in his spirit. But he can thereafter lead a life of fleshliness, ill discipline, worldliness, sinfulness and sloth. Most of the warnings of the New Testament are directed at these Christians. They are children of God, have God's divine life (2nd Pet.1:3-4), BUT.... at the Judgement Seat of Christ (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10), their works are found wanting (Gal.5:16, 19-21; Eph.5:5). Because they did not overcome, they are "hurt" of the second death (Rev.2:11). To be "hurt" means that you do not go to the second death - which is "perdition", but you temporarily suffer it's effects.

I hope this very brief summary of salvation, as it is revealed in the bible, will start the Christian on his/her way to fully give him/herself to Christ, deny the soul, carry a cross daily (a cross kills the flesh), build a loving relationship with our beloved Savior Jesus Christ, and strive to be righteous in his/her actions and obedient to the Holy Spirit which dwells in us.

Tony Cross
Jun 24th 2013, 02:34 AM
I have always been taught that it was commitment to Christ that leads to salvation, and not your works.

Ephesians 2:8-9
New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I have always taken that as you cannot earn your way into heaven

You are correct in saying that we cannot earn our salvation by works, and this is exactly what Eph. 2:8-9 teaches us. But this is not the same as doing works of obedience commanded by Christ. Consider these verses: Rom. 2:6; Rev.20:12; Jas . 2:14-26; as well as the parable of the talents. Again, no matter how hard we work or how many works we do, we cannot earn our salvation but that doesn't mean we can ignore his commands and
still be acceptable to Christ.

Jade99
Jun 24th 2013, 04:15 PM
Yes, but, in the hundreds of years, there have been those that had turned their backs on the promised coming, and thus not passed on those teachings. So, perhaps, there were those that never learned of the promised coming, and those who did believe in the promised coming that never knew or heard that he came. Not everyone lived in that surrounding area so the possibility of those who were not aware of his coming that had died. Are their souls lost because the message was never delivered to them back in the early first century or two?

Now a days, with evangelists traveling the world spreading the good news, chances are everyone has at least heard of Jesus Christ. But what about back when Christ first walked on the planet and died. His message was "whoever believes in me will have eternal life" and that he was "the only way to God". So, I guess my point was, what happened to those in the remote places around the world who never heard of his coming after he came? Were they given a pass on that because they had not heard, thus not having a chance to believe and accept?

I see what you're saying. I think this kind of explain it a little better. I got it from gotquestions.org

Question: "How were people saved before Jesus died for our sins?"

Answer: Since the fall of man, the basis of salvation has always been the death of Christ. No one, either prior to the cross or since the cross, would ever be saved without that one pivotal event in the history of the world. Christ's death paid the penalty for past sins of Old Testament saints and future sins of New Testament saints.

The requirement for salvation has always been faith. The object of one's faith for salvation has always been God. The psalmist wrote, “Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (Psalm 2:12). Genesis 15:6 tells us that Abraham believed God and that was enough for God to credit it to him for righteousness (see also Romans 4:3-8). The Old Testament sacrificial system did not take away sin, as Hebrews 10:1-10 clearly teaches. It did, however, point to the day when the Son of God would shed His blood for the sinful human race.

What has changed through the ages is the content of a believer's faith. God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time. This is called progressive revelation. Adam believed the promise God gave in Genesis 3:15 that the Seed of the woman would conquer Satan. Adam believed Him, demonstrated by the name he gave Eve (v. 20) and the Lord indicated His acceptance immediately by covering them with coats of skin (v. 21). At that point that is all Adam knew, but he believed it.

Abraham believed God according to the promises and new revelation God gave him in Genesis 12 and 15. Prior to Moses, no Scripture was written, but mankind was responsible for what God had revealed. Throughout the Old Testament, believers came to salvation because they believed that God would someday take care of their sin problem. Today, we look back, believing that He has already taken care of our sins on the cross (John 3:16; Hebrews 9:28).

What about believers in Christ's day, prior to the cross and resurrection? What did they believe? Did they understand the full picture of Christ dying on a cross for their sins? Late in His ministry, “Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life” (Matthew 16:21-22). What was the reaction of His disciples to this message? “Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. ‘Never, Lord!’ he said. ‘This shall never happen to you!’” Peter and the other disciples did not know the full truth, yet they were saved because they believed that God would take care of their sin problem. They didn't exactly know how He would accomplish that, any more than Adam, Abraham, Moses, or David knew how, but they believed God.

Today, we have more revelation than the people living before the resurrection of Christ; we know the full picture. “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe” (Hebrews 1:1-2). Our salvation is still based on the death of Christ, our faith is still the requirement for salvation, and the object of our faith is still God. Today, for us, the content of our faith is that Jesus Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He rose the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).



Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/before-Jesus.html#ixzz2X9QG0rPV

Jade99
Jun 24th 2013, 04:15 PM
Here is another explaination


Question: "What happens to those who have never heard about Jesus?"

Answer: All people are accountable to God whether or not they have “heard about Him.” The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans%201.20)) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Ecclesiastes%203.11)). The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans%201.21-23)). If it were not for God's grace, we would be given over to the sinful desires of our hearts, allowing us to discover how useless and miserable life is apart from Him. He does this for those who continually reject Him (Romans 1:24-32 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans%201.24-32)).

In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about God. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in nature. Deuteronomy 4:29 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Deuteronomy%204.29) proclaims, “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” This verse teaches an important principle—everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.

The problem is “there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God” (Romans 3:11 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans%203.11)). People reject the knowledge of God that is present in nature and in their own hearts, and instead decide to worship a “god” of their own creation. It is foolish to debate the fairness of God sending someone to hell who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ. People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them. The Bible says that people reject this knowledge, and therefore God is just in condemning them to hell.

Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we, as Christians, should be doing our best to make sure they do hear. We are called to spread the gospel throughout the nations (Matthew 28:19-20 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matthew%2028.19-20); Acts 1:8 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts%201.8)). We know people reject the knowledge of God revealed in nature, and that must motivate us to proclaim the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. Only by accepting God’s grace through the Lord Jesus Christ can people be saved from their sins and rescued from an eternity apart from God.

If we assume that those who never hear the gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the gospel are saved, it is logical that we should make sure no one ever hears the gospel. The worst thing we could do would be to share the gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motivation for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the gospel and condemning themselves when they were previously saved because they had never heard the gospel?



Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html#ixzz2X9QO2qtb

Boo
Jun 25th 2013, 08:48 AM
In a recent (maybe last year) thread on "who was written in the Lamb's book of life", debate raged energetically on this Forum. There is much in this thread to answer you. But for newcomers, here is a short summary.

But first, it was encouraging that readers read those verses on the judgment seat of Christ for Jew, Christian and the nations, and realize that at each judgement (which starts with the Christians - 1st Pet.4:17), works are judged. So what does the believer escape from compared to the Jew and the nations - both unbelievers?

The answer lies in what man was made for. Man was made a vessel to contain God, His life and His power so as to;

Display God (be in His image and likeness)
Be Christ's Bride (a help "meet" or "up to the standard of" Christ)
Subdue and Rule the earth (a matter of authority and power)
Fence about and Bring to Order a Garden of fellowship between God and man (a matter of building with divine attributes)


If any man attains to these four things he enters a state of enjoyment known only to the divine nature of God. If any man does not attain to these things he suffers the loss of this high standard of bliss. If any man does not attain to these things AND incurs God's wrath, he experiences a desperate lack of well-being called "perdition" or "destruction" in scripture (lit. Greek).

The condition for reaching the peak of bliss, or "well-being", is to partake of God's divine nature AND be found in His presence and approval. It is called ENTERING "the joy of the Lord" (Matt.25:21-23), or the supreme and eternal pleasure an man can enjoy of God's presence (Ps.16:11, 36:8). The condition for reaching the lowest degraded state of perdition is to be a fallen, unregenerate man who went against God actively (Isa.66:22-24) and who is driven away from God into active and eternal pain ("depart...ye cursed... everlasting fire" - Matt.25:41).

To reach the first mentioned complete bliss is to be fully saved. Full salvation is when the spirit of man is regenerated in rebirth by faith in the completed works of Christ (Jn.3:6), the soul of man is transformed into the image of Christ by a cooperation of man denying himself and the working of the Holy Spirit (Matt.10:39, 16:25 etc + 2nd Cor.3:18), and the body of this man partake of the "first resurrection." The Greek word for "first" does not mean first in time, but "first" in importance, and it is to be gained by effort (Phil.3:11; Rev.20:6).

The Jew and members of the nations can reach bliss, but at the human level. When Israel is restored at our Lord Jesus Christ's return, they will enjoy all that a man can enjoy. That is, the produce of their Land, no wars, no death, peace, blessings, big harvests, prosperity and the knowledge that they are the leading and favored nation on earth with Christ dwelling in their midst. Likewise, when men of the nation are all finally resurrected, they live on a renewed (or pristine) earth with no more curse (work and childbearing pains), no more war, righteous and incorruptible government, no more death, and they may visit God in the New Jerusalem (Rev.21:26) on this pristine earth.

Those who were judged by the One Who has all the facts, our Lord Jesus, and found to be enemies of God and His purposes, will be consigned to a state of eternal "lack of well-being", that is, physical and psychological suffering. Their "worm" (which eats the insides) and their "fire" (which causes excruciating pain on the outside) will never be quenched throughout eternity future (Isa.66:24). In their case God makes good His promise of Matthew 10:28. Both the body and soul suffer in Gehenna (rendered "hell" in some translations).

Finally, it stands to reason that a Christian can believe and be born again in his spirit. But he can thereafter lead a life of fleshliness, ill discipline, worldliness, sinfulness and sloth. Most of the warnings of the New Testament are directed at these Christians. They are children of God, have God's divine life (2nd Pet.1:3-4), BUT.... at the Judgement Seat of Christ (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10), their works are found wanting (Gal.5:16, 19-21; Eph.5:5). Because they did not overcome, they are "hurt" of the second death (Rev.2:11). To be "hurt" means that you do not go to the second death - which is "perdition", but you temporarily suffer it's effects.

I hope this very brief summary of salvation, as it is revealed in the bible, will start the Christian on his/her way to fully give him/herself to Christ, deny the soul, carry a cross daily (a cross kills the flesh), build a loving relationship with our beloved Savior Jesus Christ, and strive to be righteous in his/her actions and obedient to the Holy Spirit which dwells in us.

I think I see what you are saying - once saved, always saved. Live the way you want to, and you'll still be saved. Those warnings of being removed from the vine didn't mean what I thought they mean, then. Enduring to the end really didn't mean what I thought, either. We are not, then, required to love Jesus. Even though He told us "If you love me, you will obey my commandments," we can ignore Him and still be His. Is all of this in agreement with what you posted?

Thanks.

Walls
Jun 25th 2013, 01:07 PM
I think I see what you are saying - once saved, always saved. Live the way you want to, and you'll still be saved. Those warnings of being removed from the vine didn't mean what I thought they mean, then. Enduring to the end really didn't mean what I thought, either. We are not, then, required to love Jesus. Even though He told us "If you love me, you will obey my commandments," we can ignore Him and still be His. Is all of this in agreement with what you posted?

Thanks.

Hi Boo

I realize that in a long posting some things get lost in the woodwork, so may I post my posting with some things underlined. Then, if I may, will you read my posts on the new thread about "Outer Darkness", numbers 4 and 6. Thanks. If you still have the same questions after that, I'll gladly answer in detail.


In a recent (maybe last year) thread on "who was written in the Lamb's book of life", debate raged energetically on this Forum. There is much in this thread to answer you. But for newcomers, here is a short summary.

But first, it was encouraging that readers read those verses on the judgment seat of Christ for Jew, Christian and the nations, and realize that at each judgement (which starts with the Christians - 1st Pet.4:17), works are judged. So what does the believer escape from compared to the Jew and the nations - both unbelievers?

The answer lies in what man was made for. Man was made a vessel to contain God, His life and His power so as to;


Display God (be in His image and likeness)
Be Christ's Bride (a help "meet" or "up to the standard of" Christ)
Subdue and Rule the earth (a matter of authority and power)
Fence about and Bring to Order a Garden of fellowship between God and man (a matter of building with divine attributes)



If any man attains to these four things he enters a state of enjoyment known only to the divine nature of God. If any man does not attain to these things he suffers the loss of this high standard of bliss. If any man does not attain to these things AND incurs God's wrath, he experiences a desperate lack of well-being called "perdition" or "destruction" in scripture (lit. Greek).

The condition for reaching the peak of bliss, or "well-being", is to partake of God's divine nature AND be found in His presence and approval. It is called ENTERING "the joy of the Lord" (Matt.25:21-23), or the supreme and eternal pleasure an man can enjoy of God's presence (Ps.16:11, 36:8). The condition for reaching the lowest degraded state of perdition is to be a fallen, unregenerate man who went against God actively (Isa.66:22-24) and who is driven away from God into active and eternal pain ("depart...ye cursed... everlasting fire" - Matt.25:41).

To reach the first mentioned complete bliss is to be fully saved. Full salvation is when the spirit of man is regenerated in rebirth by faith in the completed works of Christ (Jn.3:6), the soul of man is transformed into the image of Christ by a cooperation of man denying himself and the working of the Holy Spirit (Matt.10:39, 16:25 etc + 2nd Cor.3:18), and the body of this man partake of the "first resurrection." The Greek word for "first" does not mean first in time, but "first" in importance, and it is to be gained by effort (Phil.3:11; Rev.20:6).

The Jew and members of the nations can reach bliss, but at the human level. When Israel is restored at our Lord Jesus Christ's return, they will enjoy all that a man can enjoy. That is, the produce of their Land, no wars, no death, peace, blessings, big harvests, prosperity and the knowledge that they are the leading and favored nation on earth with Christ dwelling in their midst. Likewise, when men of the nation are all finally resurrected, they live on a renewed (or pristine) earth with no more curse (work and childbearing pains), no more war, righteous and incorruptible government, no more death, and they may visit God in the New Jerusalem (Rev.21:26) on this pristine earth.

Those who were judged by the One Who has all the facts, our Lord Jesus, and found to be enemies of God and His purposes, will be consigned to a state of eternal "lack of well-being", that is, physical and psychological suffering. Their "worm" (which eats the insides) and their "fire" (which causes excruciating pain on the outside) will never be quenched throughout eternity future (Isa.66:24). In their case God makes good His promise of Matthew 10:28. Both the body and soul suffer in Gehenna (rendered "hell" in some translations).

Finally, it stands to reason that a Christian can believe and be born again in his spirit. But he can thereafter lead a life of fleshliness, ill discipline, worldliness, sinfulness and sloth. Most of the warnings of the New Testament are directed at these Christians. They are children of God, have God's divine life (2nd Pet.1:3-4), BUT.... at the Judgement Seat of Christ (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10), their works are found wanting (Gal.5:16, 19-21; Eph.5:5). Because they did not overcome, they are "hurt" of the second death (Rev.2:11). To be "hurt" means that you do not go to the second death - which is "perdition", but you temporarily suffer it's effects.

I hope this very brief summary of salvation, as it is revealed in the bible, will start the Christian on his/her way to fully give him/herself to Christ, deny the soul, carry a cross daily (a cross kills the flesh), build a loving relationship with our beloved Savior Jesus Christ, and strive to be righteous in his/her actions and obedient to the Holy Spirit which dwells in us.

Boo
Jun 26th 2013, 09:51 AM
Hi Boo

I realize that in a long posting some things get lost in the woodwork, so may I post my posting with some things underlined. Then, if I may, will you read my posts on the new thread about "Outer Darkness", numbers 4 and 6. Thanks. If you still have the same questions after that, I'll gladly answer in detail.

My brother, here is the line that distinguishes the difference between your and my understanding:


Full salvation is when the spirit of man is regenerated in rebirth by faith in the completed works of Christ

A person who has had his spirit regenerated - born again - will not do as you describe unless he gives up his faith. He would have to turn against God in order to return to his worldly ways.

While nobody can snatch us from the hand of God, we can bail out of Him.

You believe that this person is still destined for life with God for eternity. I don't.

Walls
Jun 26th 2013, 11:53 AM
My brother, here is the line that distinguishes the difference between your and my understanding:


Full salvation is when the spirit of man is regenerated in rebirth by faith in the completed works of Christ

A person who has had his spirit regenerated - born again - will not do as you describe unless he gives up his faith. He would have to turn against God in order to return to his worldly ways.

I appreciate your firm stand. Now, having established that in concrete, you will have to show the meaning of;


1 Peter 1:9. "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls", in context of trials and tribulations.
Philippians 2:12. "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling", in context of DOING God's good pleasure (v.13) and DOING all things... " (v.14).
Romans 8:23. "... even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body", in the context of being "saved by hope..." (v.24).



While nobody can snatch us from the hand of God, we can bail out of Him.

I'm afraid that this is a contradiction. "Bail out" means you have "snatched" yourself out of His hand, whereas you, and scripture say that NOBODY can. Added to this, you have just stated that we are saved by faith - born again - in the completed works of Christ. How does one "bail out" of being born? Can a baby child, or adult man "unbirth" itself? Romans 1:20. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse...." The birth of a child belongs to the creation. If the creation shows the invisible rebirth of the human spirit by the birth of a child, where in creation is the "unbirthing" of a child (by its own power, or own "snatching")?


You believe that this person is still destined for life with God for eternity. I don't.

Well... the Holy Spirit thinks so. 1 Corinthians 3:15. "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Boo
Jun 29th 2013, 10:56 AM
I appreciate your firm stand. Now, having established that in concrete, you will have to show the meaning of;


1 Peter 1:9. "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls", in context of trials and tribulations.
Philippians 2:12. "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling", in context of DOING God's good pleasure (v.13) and DOING all things... " (v.14).
Romans 8:23. "... even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body", in the context of being "saved by hope..." (v.24).




I'm afraid that this is a contradiction. "Bail out" means you have "snatched" yourself out of His hand, whereas you, and scripture say that NOBODY can. Added to this, you have just stated that we are saved by faith - born again - in the completed works of Christ. How does one "bail out" of being born? Can a baby child, or adult man "unbirth" itself? Romans 1:20. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse...." The birth of a child belongs to the creation. If the creation shows the invisible rebirth of the human spirit by the birth of a child, where in creation is the "unbirthing" of a child (by its own power, or own "snatching")?



Well... the Holy Spirit thinks so. 1 Corinthians 3:15. "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

I do not see any contradiction between my understanding and the verses you presented.

We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We surely don't need to do that if we are going to rest on our rear ends thinking that our three minutes spent in repentance and confession is all there is to our future with God.

Each day, I must endeavor to live for Christ Jesus and keep my mind on Him. Each day I must endure - to the end - in obedience to God. I do this because I am a new creature in Christ. I cannot see how I would ever give up my faith and go back to being part of this world.

But - people have. People like Charles Templeton have. ( http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/cm/v22/n3/slippery-slide-unbelief ) Men who are seminary trained and have PhDs like Bart Ehrman ( http://ehrmanblog.org/am-i-an-agnostic-or-an-atheist-2/ ) have given up their faith. Now Dr. Ehrman teaches a different message from what he was taught as he is now an Agnostic.

If you maintain your work for Christ and live in Obedience to Him, even if you stumble (not surrender to Satan - stumble) your bad works will be burned up but you are still His. If you give yourself up - as these two man have done - nobody snatched you from God's hand. The choice you made to be His is withdrawn by you.

It has been done before. Surely there are countless others. My parents, for example.

They gave up on God.

Gadgeteer
Jul 6th 2013, 06:03 AM
I believe it goes all the way back to creation.

We needed a savior, because of Adam's sin. I would think that Adam and Eve had to have told someone what God said in Gen 3:15; which was passed on until Christ revealed himself. (The only time in life the telephone game was accurate and correct...cool beans)

Anyhoo, people in the OT time believed in the promised Messiah, probably with only word of mouth as evidence, but it was still enough to know that he exist and he's coming to save us. Now at that time, they by faith looked towards the Cross and they were also under the law, so it was by faith and their works. When Jesus died on the cross, and paid for the present, past, and future sins of all of mankind, his blood was the atonement for our sins. Heb 9:22 (summarizing) without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. When something is atone, is means to forgive. So after Christ burial and resurrection, we were now under grace. So just like probably, Adam and Eve spread the word that a messiah was coming, it was written that Jesus told his disciples to spread his gospel, which was to let all men know that he is our Lord and Savior. So, now we look back to the cross, because we believe through faith that it happened. We believe through faith that fact that Jesus died on the cross and was buried and rose again on the 3rd day. This also meant that because Christ shed his own blood to cover the atonement, we don't have to do anything but believe that through faith. That's why when people add that we still must be good and do this or do that or we'll lose our salvation, I correct them because that's not what the bible says and that's adding works to the grace. Our sins are already nailed to the cross. So, when we confessed that we were sinners and that we needed Jesus and we believed that he died for our sins, along with belief that he was buried and is a risen savior, in that moment we were no longer apart of his world and we no longer had that born given connection with Satan; but we were bought into the family of God through Christ and we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truths.

The trinity of God (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit) has always been at work from creation til the present time and onward. So, the plan of Salvation was always planned and in effect, even in the OT time. We are just lucky to have been born into this time period to be able to tell people about what Christ did for us and to be the bride of Christ. When Revelation 20:6 says Blessed and holy is he who takes part in the first resurrection. True points; there has ALWAYS been "only one Savior" (Isaiah 43:11); Jesus. Acts4:12 ("there is salvation in no one else, there is no other name under Heaven by which men must be saved") is not new dictate. Well said that they looked for the coming Messiah, and we look back to the came Messiah.

...yet...

Regarding what I bolded of your post --- we do not do good works to BE saved, but our works are the measure OF our salvation. We are to examine ourselves by our works; see 2Pet1:5-11, 2Cor13:5, etcetera.


I remember my Pastor long ago said that no matter what or where we are or were, Christ's gospel is being preached and taught. And it's being taught and preached through the body of Christ.

Exactly what is that "Gospel"? Easy believe-ism? That one just "recites the Sinner's Prayer", and presto he/she has the "magic ticket"?

James states in 2:19 that "mere mental assent" doesn't save anyone. Some misunderstand the rest of James2; it's not teaching "salvation because of works" --- but rather, judging our salvation BY our works.

The heart of James' letter has to be chapter 4; draw near to God and He will draw near to us --- and the works will take care of themselves.


You are correct in saying that we cannot earn our salvation by works, and this is exactly what Eph. 2:8-9 teaches us. But this is not the same as doing works of obedience commanded by Christ. Consider these verses: Rom. 2:6; Rev.20:12; Jas . 2:14-26; as well as the parable of the talents. Again, no matter how hard we work or how many works we do, we cannot earn our salvation but that doesn't mean we can ignore his commands and
still be acceptable to Christ. There is truth in this. Yet --- we don't do good works to be acceptable to Christ; no, the essence of salvation is Christ-in-us --- therefore HE does our good works THROUGH us, works are the measure of where we are!


I think I see what you are saying - once saved, always saved. Live the way you want to, and you'll still be saved. Those warnings of being removed from the vine didn't mean what I thought they mean, then. Enduring to the end really didn't mean what I thought, either. We are not, then, required to love Jesus. Even though He told us "If you love me, you will obey my commandments," we can ignore Him and still be His.
A person who has had his spirit regenerated - born again - will not do as you describe unless he gives up his faith. He would have to turn against God in order to return to his worldly ways.

While nobody can snatch us from the hand of God, we can bail out of Him.

You believe that this person is still destined for life with God for eternity. I don't. Boo, these are really, really excellent posts. There are three views of "OSAS" --- what I quoted first from you reflects "Antinomianism" (Gnosticism); sinning/corrupt flesh but saved spirit. Such a view violates many passages --- not the least of which are 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and 1John3:5-10.

The essence of salvation is communion between Creator, and creature. It is KNOWING the Father and Jesus (John17:3), being in intimate fellowship (1Jn1:3). The veil tore (the moment Jesus died) for a reason; each of us is invited behind the veil. Washed clean by Jesus' blood, we're asked into the very presence of Almighty God. Why? He delights in us, enjoys our company, celebrates our fellowship; His thoughts of us outnumber the grains of sand. Can we begin to grasp the depths of love that placed the only begotten Son (fully God Himself) under incredible torture and suffering, that we might live?

"Born-again" --- what does that mean? Born, begotten, regenerated; yet we are to walk in Him (Col2:6-8) guarding ourselves against deceivers; we are to daily lay aside the old sinful man and put on the new righteous creation, to be renewed in the spirit of our minds (Eph4:22-24). To abide in regeneration continually, by abiding in Jesus and the Spirit. 1Pet5:18, 1Jn4:16!

"BUILD OURSELVES in holy faith, KEEP OURSELVES in the love of God" as Jude said in 1:20-21!

We do not do good works to be saved; salvation is only by believing and RECEIVING Jesus (Jn1:12), and our position IN Christ is measured by our deeds. Jesus said "no good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good; you will KNOW them by their fruit (deeds)".

We will know them, and we will know ourselves. For the closer we are to Jesus, the more His heart becomes ours, and the more He does good deeds THROUGH us. "It is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me --- and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me." Gal2:20!!!

:-)

Jade99
Jul 8th 2013, 07:31 PM
The gospel of Christ is one of the easiest (I can't spell today, lol) definitions of the bible and yet it is one of the most complicated and it's only complicated, because mankind wants to twist it and add to it. The gospel of Christ is the death, burial, resurrection of Christ. There is no such thing as a sinner's prayer. That's definitely a man-made concept.

Story time:

When I was saved, I was like "Hey I believe and I accept and want you Lord Jesus to come into my life" I believed his gospel once it was broken down in plain terms. There was no sinner's prayer and I didn't verbally say from my mouth anything. I ask Christ to save me from what my heart. The only thing that I said out of my mouth, (because I went in front of the church) was that (I can't remember directly, but it was along the lines of) "The Lord told me to go and I know that when he says go, Go." When I first heard the gospel given that day, I believed and accepted the truth and I walked up there after the plan of salvation from given by the Pastor. I was just coming back from living in California and I geninuing thought I was saved, but I wasn't. I knew that Jesus died for my sins and I knew he was buried and rose again, but no one at any church I went to said why, except that day on December 16, 2011. Why did it take until age 20 to hear it from a bible teaching Pastor? I don't know. But thanks be to the Almighty God for making a way for me to learn the truth.

There were times that Satan planted seeds of doubt because of the fact that I didn't verbally say "Dear Lord please save me and be my Lord and Savior) and then I learned just how tricky Satan was. I am a born again Christian. I do have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in me. I felt the change of becoming a new creature and here I am almost 12 years later, God is not through with me yet. There is still a lot of growing to do. I'm just glad that I am able to proudly and boldly proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord and my God and Savior.

What I learned later on was that my sister also gave her life to Christ the same exact month at age 16. My little sister got to live part of her teenage years knowing Christ and I started my adulthood knowing Christ.

This was probably not the right place to say my testamony but I thought it was relevant to salvation, because like most on this forum, I have the wonderful experience.

Ok, I have to get back to work. I'll catch yall later. :hug:

David Taylor
Jul 8th 2013, 08:03 PM
Yes, but, in the hundreds of years, there have been those that had turned their backs on the promised coming, and thus not passed on those teachings. So, perhaps, there were those that never learned of the promised coming, and those who did believe in the promised coming that never knew or heard that he came. Not everyone lived in that surrounding area so the possibility of those who were not aware of his coming that had died. Are their souls lost because the message was never delivered to them back in the early first century or two?

Now a days, with evangelists traveling the world spreading the good news, chances are everyone has at least heard of Jesus Christ. But what about back when Christ first walked on the planet and died. His message was "whoever believes in me will have eternal life" and that he was "the only way to God". So, I guess my point was, what happened to those in the remote places around the world who never heard of his coming after he came? Were they given a pass on that because they had not heard, thus not having a chance to believe and accept?

Scripture tells us that God is in control of His creation, and that He wants all to repent and follow Him.
He has many tools at His disposal to use so that all men, living in any age, can come to salvation.

Just because we may not know the specific opportunities other people had living in far lands in ages gone by, doesn't mean God abandoned them and didn't prove a way for their forgiveness and salvation.

Some good verses:

Acts 17:26 "God And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us"

Another great example of this, is Abraham.

Born in Ur, in the region of Sumer, 1400 years before Christ.
No churches.
No written bibles.
No Christian preachers.

A 100%ish pagan land with pagan gods and religions.

Yet God revealed Himself to Abraham and Abraham responded accordingly, and much is written in the scripture telling us about his faithfulness as a child of the true God Almighty.

If God can find Abraham in the mist of a pagan, unchurched, un-missionaried land 2400 years ago; surely God as He says in the Acts 17 verse, can do the same for all humankind.

Romans chapter 1 also addresses this:

Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."

So it's not that God has slighted people in far off lands in olden times; is that most of those people have slighted God Himself; and rejected Him in favor of their own sinful desires.

That Christ came at the time He did, didn't cause anyone to miss-out; and of the faithful of OT times who trusted and followed the Lord in faith, had the promise of Christ's salvation for their sins; no different than we who live 2000 years after Christ's sacrifice looking back.

There is no situation of someone who 'has never heard' or 'has been missed or overlooked by God' to not be able to participate in the saving grace of Jesus Christ. That's a common myth perpetuated from hard-hearted people who want to discredit the salvation they themselves willfully choose to reject.

Gadgeteer
Jul 9th 2013, 01:54 AM
The gospel of Christ is one of the easiest (I can't spell today, lol) definitions of the bible and yet it is one of the most complicated and it's only complicated, because mankind wants to twist it and add to it. The gospel of Christ is the death, burial, resurrection of Christ. There is no such thing as a sinner's prayer. That's definitely a man-made concept. Hi, Jade. :wave:

Romans6 teaches that we are "united" (united, died, buried, immersed, crucified) with Christ --- we truly die to sin; and as He was raised from the dead so too shall we walk in newness of life (we are raised too, new creations in Him).

But what does that mean? How are we "died", and how are we "made new"?


Story time:

When I was saved, I was like "Hey I believe and I accept and want you Lord Jesus to come into my life" I believed his gospel once it was broken down in plain terms. There was no sinner's prayer and I didn't verbally say from my mouth anything. I ask Christ to save me from what my heart. The only thing that I said out of my mouth, (because I went in front of the church) was that (I can't remember directly, but it was along the lines of) "The Lord told me to go and I know that when he says go, Go." When I first heard the gospel given that day, I believed and accepted the truth and I walked up there after the plan of salvation from given by the Pastor. I was just coming back from living in California and I genuinely thought I was saved, but I wasn't. I knew that Jesus died for my sins and I knew he was buried and rose again, but no one at any church I went to said why, except that day on December 16, 2011. Why did it take until age 20 to hear it from a bible teaching Pastor? I don't know. But thanks be to the Almighty God for making a way for me to learn the truth. I grew up with a really wonderful amusement park; sadly it was killed by politics. But they had this "ride" with old cars, real gas engines, they could go a couple miles per hour. There were steel rails along the road to limit where the cars could go; but you could have great fun driving around the track.

I sometimes think people view salvation this way; driving around their "tracks", picking up things (and people) along the way. "Saved" to them means picking up Jesus and putting Him on the seat next to them. The problem is they never realize what it means to embody verses like Galatians2:20:


"I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me."

So --- who is in the driver's seat? There is a bumper sticker that says, "God is my copilot". It breaks my heart; if God is our copilot, we're in the wrong seat!


There were times that satan planted seeds of doubt because of the fact that I didn't verbally say "Dear Lord please save me and be my Lord and Savior) and then I learned just how tricky satan was. I am a born again Christian. I do have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in me. I felt the change of becoming a new creature and here I am almost 12 years later, God is not through with me yet. There is still a lot of growing to do. I'm just glad that I am able to proudly and boldly proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord and my God and Savior. satan is tricky, and we are at just as much risk from his wiles as Eve was (2Cor11:3); but it's just as wrong to give him too much credit, as to not guard ourselves against him at all. I've heard preachers like Joyce Meyer preach on Luke10:17-19:


The seventy returned with joy, saying "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name!"
Jesus said, "I saw satan fall from heaven like lightning; behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

Joyce said, "Isn't that great that we have power over the devil? We should tell the devil "GET THEE BEHIND ME, sATAN!"

Usually when I yell back to the radio it doesn't do any good; I was yelling, "No, Joyce! It isn't great at all, it is NOTHING! Read the next verse!"


Luke10:20 "Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you; rejoice instead that your names are written in Heaven."

That's our focus; fill our hearts so full of Jesus and the Spirit, that there is no room for satan. Don't talk to him at all; he's not worth giving the time of day. But rejoice in God's presence, worship Jesus in spirit and in truth, and pursue the Holy Spirit intensely. James says resist the devil and he will flee; but then James continues stating that by drawing near to God He will draw near to us --- and we are to submit ourselves to Him.

...that means, "get out of the driver's seat, and truly submit"...


What I learned later on was that my sister also gave her life to Christ the same exact month at age 16. My little sister got to live part of her teenage years knowing Christ and I started my adulthood knowing Christ.

This was probably not the right place to say my testimony but I thought it was relevant to salvation, because like most on this forum, I have the wonderful experience.

Ok, I have to get back to work. I'll catch y'all later. :hug:May your wonderful experience last forever, and may you grow into Him in all ways; may He fill you completely and truly be your Lord and Master. May His love overflow through you onto the world, that those He is able to touch THROUGH you be vast in number.

And may each of us enjoy that saved-fellowship with the Creator as well.

Keith Green asked why people wait for DEATH to complete our relationship with Jesus. Excellent question --- why can't we be fully with Him NOW, in spirit, as much as when He returns physically? Why does His physical return have to be a great change for those who claim to belong to Him?

No reason, Keith; no reason at all.

:-)

Gadgeteer
Jul 9th 2013, 02:14 AM
Scripture tells us that God is in control of His creation, and that He wants all to repent and follow Him.
He has many tools at His disposal to use so that all men, living in any age, can come to salvation.

Just because we may not know the specific opportunities other people had living in far lands in ages gone by, doesn't mean God abandoned them and didn't prove a way for their forgiveness and salvation.

Some good verses:

Acts 17:26 "God And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us"

Another great example of this, is Abraham.

Born in Ur, in the region of Sumer, 1400 years before Christ.
No churches.
No written bibles.
No Christian preachers.

A 100%ish pagan land with pagan gods and religions.

Yet God revealed Himself to Abraham and Abraham responded accordingly, and much is written in the scripture telling us about his faithfulness as a child of the true God Almighty.

If God can find Abraham in the mist of a pagan, unchurched, un-missionaried land 2400 years ago; surely God as He says in the Acts 17 verse, can do the same for all humankind.

Romans chapter 1 also addresses this:

Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."

So it's not that God has slighted people in far off lands in olden times; is that most of those people have slighted God Himself; and rejected Him in favor of their own sinful desires.

That Christ came at the time He did, didn't cause anyone to miss-out; and of the faithful of OT times who trusted and followed the Lord in faith, had the promise of Christ's salvation for their sins; no different than we who live 2000 years after Christ's sacrifice looking back.

There is no situation of someone who 'has never heard' or 'has been missed or overlooked by God' to not be able to participate in the saving grace of Jesus Christ. That's a common myth perpetuated from hard-hearted people who want to discredit the salvation they themselves willfully choose to reject.

Excellent post. Romans2:14-16 also adds to this --- Gentiles who do not have the Law (Jesus is now the Law!) can nevertheless have the Law written on their hearts.

Jesus is real. He is conscious and reachable; He is not a mute clay or metal idol. I tell people if they want to find out if He's real, ASK Him --- but mean it when they do. If they want to know, He will answer.

I asked that question once, and He answered me clearly --- "Yes I'm real, yes I want you."

:-)

Jade99
Jul 9th 2013, 12:21 PM
Hi, Jade. :wave:

Romans6 teaches that we are "united" (united, died, buried, immersed, crucified) with Christ --- we truly die to sin; and as He was raised from the dead so too shall we walk in newness of life (we are raised too, new creations in Him).

But what does that mean? How are we "died", and how are we "made new"?

I grew up with a really wonderful amusement park; sadly it was killed by politics. But they had this "ride" with old cars, real gas engines, they could go a couple miles per hour. There were steel rails along the road to limit where the cars could go; but you could have great fun driving around the track.

I sometimes think people view salvation this way; driving around their "tracks", picking up things (and people) along the way. "Saved" to them means picking up Jesus and putting Him on the seat next to them. The problem is they never realize what it means to embody verses like Galatians2:20:


"I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me."

So --- who is in the driver's seat? There is a bumper sticker that says, "God is my copilot". It breaks my heart; if God is our copilot, we're in the wrong seat!

satan is tricky, and we are at just as much risk from his wiles as Eve was (2Cor11:3); but it's just as wrong to give him too much credit, as to not guard ourselves against him at all. I've heard preachers like Joyce Meyer preach on Luke10:17-19:


The seventy returned with joy, saying "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name!"
Jesus said, "I saw satan fall from heaven like lightning; behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you."[/color]

Joyce said, "Isn't that great that we have power over the devil? We should tell the devil "GET THEE BEHIND ME, sATAN!"

Usually when I yell back to the radio it doesn't do any good; I was yelling, "No, Joyce! It isn't great at all, it is NOTHING! Read the next verse!"

[indent]Luke10:20 "Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you; rejoice instead that your names are written in Heaven."

That's our focus; fill our hearts so full of Jesus and the Spirit, that there is no room for satan. Don't talk to him at all; he's not worth giving the time of day. But rejoice in God's presence, worship Jesus in spirit and in truth, and pursue the Holy Spirit intensely. James says resist the devil and he will flee; but then James continues stating that by drawing near to God He will draw near to us --- and we are to submit ourselves to Him.

...that means, "get out of the driver's seat, and truly submit"...

May your wonderful experience last forever, and may you grow into Him in all ways; may He fill you completely and truly be your Lord and Master. May His love overflow through you onto the world, that those He is able to touch THROUGH you be vast in number.

And may each of us enjoy that saved-fellowship with the Creator as well.

Keith Green asked why people wait for DEATH to complete our relationship with Jesus. Excellent question --- why can't we be fully with Him NOW, in spirit, as much as when He returns physically? Why does His physical return have to be a great change for those who claim to belong to Him?

No reason, Keith; no reason at all.

:-)

I love your food for thought questions. It really makes you think and get futhermore into praising and glorifying God, because even know we don't have direct answers to the questions we may have, we trust God enough to know that he knows what he's doing and that he knows what we think, feel, and the questions that we as humans will ask. I can picture him up in heaven saying "Just trust me. I got this." And he does got this and he knew that we would need the comforter to lead and guide us into all truths.