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ChangedByHim
Jun 25th 2013, 04:01 PM
Two questions:

1. What do you believe Evangelism is, according to the New Testament?
2. Based on your answer to number 1, what do you believe your requirement is individually?

LandShark
Jun 25th 2013, 04:17 PM
Two questions:

1. What do you believe Evangelism is, according to the New Testament?
2. Based on your answer to number 1, what do you believe your requirement is individually?

I think SOME people are called to "go out" and take the good news to places it has not been heard. But individually, I don't think that is the case. The Great Commission is not all in command form... "GO" is not a command, it is more like "as you go." What is in command form is "make disciples." So the essence of our walk and witness is like this, as I see it:

We are to live in a manner that allows the world around us to see God in us. His attributes like love, peace and joy, patience, long suffering, a willingness to extend mercy to those we might not even think are worthy of such... is what others should see in us because THAT is what we saw in HIM... we reflect Him. When we do, people will notice, we are as a city on a hill that cannot be hid. People will ask, and when they do, we are to teach. Not before, because when somebody is not seeking they will not find. When somebody is not asking questions, they will not hear answers. But when they see and then ask, teach. That is our responsibility as individuals. IMHO

mikebr
Jun 25th 2013, 04:42 PM
Two questions:

1. What do you believe Evangelism is, according to the New Testament?
2. Based on your answer to number 1, what do you believe your requirement is individually?

Love em till they ask you why. Covers both! Christ in Me will do the work. I don't produce the fruit, I simply bear it. I am the branch that others will pick the fruit from that the Vine has produced.

Valencia
Jun 25th 2013, 05:49 PM
There is a lot of wisdom in the last two posts!!

I wrote this in another thread recently, the "spreading of the gospel" in western Christendom is not how it looks like in the Bible. I think LandShark's post above really points to this. The churches have not done a good job at teaching discipleship, so we have a bunch of "mini evangelists" going around "spreading the gospel" without a good foundation of what that means.

In the NT, evangelism taught people how to be disciples, it was taught that people "pick up their cross daily and follow me", "loss is gain in Christ", "to lose your life is to save it".
Being a disciple costs us everything.

The requirement is what nimbleswillgrace said above, to Love the Lord and love others, being Christ in the world. If someone asks, I tell, otherwise we are servants, showing the world what Christ looks like.

mikebr
Jun 25th 2013, 05:54 PM
There is a lot of wisdom in the last two posts!!

I wrote this in another thread recently, the "spreading of the gospel" in western Christendom is not how it looks like in the Bible. I think LandShark's post above really points to this. The churches have not done a good job at teaching discipleship, so we have a bunch of "mini evangelists" going around "spreading the gospel" without a good foundation of what that means.

In the NT, evangelism taught people how to be disciples, it was taught that people "pick up their cross daily and follow me", "loss is gain in Christ", "to lose your life is to save it".
Being a disciple costs us everything.

The requirement is what nimbleswillgrace said above, to Love the Lord and love others, being Christ in the world. If someone asks, I tell, otherwise we are servants, showing the world what Christ looks like.

We have put the Great Commission before the Great Commandment.

Valencia
Jun 25th 2013, 05:56 PM
We have put the Great Commission before the Great Commandment.

Oh, wow, that is good....it's very applicable. Thanks.

LandShark
Jun 25th 2013, 06:56 PM
We have put the Great Commission before the Great Commandment.

I very much disagree. All we do in word or deed is to be done in the name (authority) of Jesus. We can't do his work unless we love him first. First we love, then we work... or our relationship is works based. IMHO anyway! :) I do get your point and appreciate it, but if ANYTHING we do doesn't come FIRST from a position of love, it is vain. 1 Cor. 13 is making this point... as Paul says, you can do X, Y, and Z for the needy, poor and destitute, but if not from a position of love, it will be of no value. Blessings!

Valencia
Jun 25th 2013, 07:16 PM
I very much disagree. All we do in word or deed is to be done in the name (authority) of Jesus. We can't do his work unless we love him first. First we love, then we work... or our relationship is works based. IMHO anyway! :) I do get your point and appreciate it, but if ANYTHING we do doesn't come FIRST from a position of love, it is vain. 1 Cor. 13 is making this point... as Paul says, you can do X, Y, and Z for the needy, poor and destitute, but if not from a position of love, it will be of no value. Blessings!

Hi LandShark,

Isn't this what nimblewillsgrace said? Or am I miss something? Which could very well be the case.......it's almost what I do best! ;)

LandShark
Jun 25th 2013, 07:22 PM
Hi LandShark,

Isn't this what nimblewillsgrace said? Or am I miss something? Which could very well be the case.......it's almost what I do best! ;)

If he (?) did, I apologize to you both. I read it as the Great Commission was to be placed BEFORE the Great Commandment, which is to love God. The Great Commandment isn't love God and neighbor, the first Great Command is love God, the SECOND is love neighbor. He wrote:

"We have put the Great Commission before the Great Commandment."

This is why I said we have to "love" before we "do." :) Blessings.

ChangedByHim
Jun 25th 2013, 07:29 PM
If he (?) did, I apologize to you both. I read it as the Great Commission was to be placed BEFORE the Great Commandment, which is to love God. The Great Commandment isn't love God and neighbor, the first Great Command is love God, the SECOND is love neighbor. He wrote:

"We have put the Great Commission before the Great Commandment."

This is why I said we have to "love" before we "do." :) Blessings.
Everything flows from loving God. Otherwise they are just dead religious works.

Athanasius
Jun 25th 2013, 08:25 PM
Oh, wow, that is good....it's very applicable. Thanks.

It's fairly bad, actually. There is a reason why 'Love the Lord' is prior to 'Love thy neighbour...' (one flows from the other, as 'ChangedByHim' mentions), and for this reason you cannot place the 'Great Commission' prior to the 'Great Commandment'. The 'Great Commission' ceases to make sense without a prior and existing love for God and neighbor. If you don't love God and your neighbor, why would you preach the 'good news' to them?

LandShark
Jun 25th 2013, 08:28 PM
It's fairly bad, actually. There is a reason why 'Love the Lord' is prior to 'Love thy neighbour...' (one flows from the other, as 'ChangedByHim' mentions), and for this reason you cannot place the 'Great Commission' prior to the 'Great Commandment'. The 'Great Commission' ceases to make sense without a prior and existing love for God and neighbor. If you don't love God and your neighbor, why would you preach the 'good news' to them?

Well said... and as I stated before, if the work comes before love, then our relationship is works based, not love based! We do because we love, we don't love because we do!

Valencia
Jun 25th 2013, 08:31 PM
It's fairly bad, actually. There is a reason why 'Love the Lord' is prior to 'Love thy neighbour...' (one flows from the other, as 'ChangedByHim' mentions), and for this reason you cannot place the 'Great Commission' prior to the 'Great Commandment'. The 'Great Commission' ceases to make sense without a prior and existing love for God and neighbor. If you don't love God and your neighbor, why would you preach the 'good news' to them?

But that isn't what nimble said - the way I read it was we have made the mistake of putting the great commission BEFORE the great commandment.

It's a mistake on our part.

But let me ask, is it possible for us to love the Lord with all of our hearts, mind and soul and be lukewarm to our neighbor?

I admit, when I see Great Commandment, I throw "love neighbor" in there, too, but now I see I was in error for doing that.

Valencia
Jun 25th 2013, 08:33 PM
Well said... and as I stated before, if the work comes before love, then our relationship is works based, not love based! We do because we love, we don't love because we do!

Again, isn't nimble referring to the mistake we have made (or could make) within evangelism?

We run out and "spread the gospel" without the love for God - this is in error on the evangelistic world?

Maybe I completely read his quote wrong and that's not what he meant. Now I'm confused. :(

ChangedByHim
Jun 25th 2013, 08:34 PM
But let me ask, is it possible for us to love the Lord with all of our hearts, mind and soul and be lukewarm to our neighbor?


I don't think so. To love Him with all our being is also to love as He loves. If we are lukewarm to our neighbor, repeat step 1 :)

Athanasius
Jun 25th 2013, 08:34 PM
But that isn't what nimble said - the way I read it was we have made the mistake of putting the great commission BEFORE the great commandment.

It's a mistake on our part.

Ah, yes it looks like I misread him. In that case, the point expands on what he said.


But let me ask, is it possible for us to love the Lord with all of our hearts, mind and soul and be lukewarm to our neighbor?

I don't see how.


I admit, when I see Great Commandment, I throw "love neighbor" in there, too, but now I see I was in error for doing that.

Not following?

Valencia
Jun 25th 2013, 08:39 PM
Not following?
The Great Commandment is love the Lord with all of your heart mind and soul, correct?

On top of that I would have said the Great Commandment included "loving your neighbor", but maybe this is not right because Jesus did emphasis two.

mikebr
Jun 25th 2013, 08:44 PM
Again, isn't nimble referring to the mistake we have made (or could make) within evangelism?

We run out and "spread the gospel" without the love for God - this is in error on the evangelistic world?

Maybe I completely read his quote wrong and that's not what he meant. Now I'm confused. :(


Great Commission -Go ye into all the World.............................
Great Commandment - Love the Lord your God...........................and your neighbor as yourself.

You read me right, Trying to spread the Gospel to people we don't love is insane!

Athanasius
Jun 25th 2013, 08:44 PM
The Great Commandment is love the Lord with all of your heart mind and soul, correct?

On top of that I would have said the Great Commandment included "loving your neighbor", but maybe this is not right because Jesus did emphasis two.

The first is 'Love the Lord', the second is 'Love your neighbour'.

ChangedByHim
Jun 25th 2013, 08:45 PM
I said this in another thread, but it bears repeating here:

If loving the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength is the GREATEST COMMANDMENT, then by consequence, failure to do so would be the GREATEST SIN.

How many Christians think this way though? To some, He is little more than an acquaintance. He wants our first love. If we are passionately in love with Jesus, we won't have to stop and think about telling others about Him; it will flow out of us.

To that end, I do not study the Bible to know the Bible. I study and Bible to know God. When I teach the Bible, I want others to KNOW GOD, not think "wow, he knows a lot about the Bible." If my teaching does not lead one to know God better, I have failed, or they have rejected knowing Him.

LandShark
Jun 25th 2013, 08:47 PM
Great Commission -Go ye into all the World.............................
Great Commandment - Love the Lord your God...........................and your neighbor as yourself.

You read me right, Trying to spread the Gospel to people we don't love is insane!

The gospel is for "everyone," not just those we love. The Great Commission is to make disciples, that is the part that is in command form Nimble. But the love of God is WE do His commands, and number 1 is "love God." You can't do the Father's work unless we FIRST love the Father.

ChangedByHim
Jun 25th 2013, 08:52 PM
Based on results of American evangelism, we have failed miserably at loving God. :(

Pbminimum
Jun 25th 2013, 09:11 PM
Two questions:

1. What do you believe Evangelism is, according to the New Testament?
2. Based on your answer to number 1, what do you believe your requirement is individually?

1. To share the Gospel.
2. To share the Gospel.

Pbminimum
Jun 25th 2013, 09:15 PM
We have put the Great Commission before the Great Commandment.

How can we say we love God, and not our neighbor.....How can we say we love our neighbor and not share the most important thing ever with them ?

Example: If your neighbor were standing in front of a speeding train would we try with everthing we have to get him out of harms way, or just tell him how much we love him from the side of the tracks until he was dead ?

WSGAC
Jun 25th 2013, 09:52 PM
There is no "first" about it. Love for God is demonstrated in love for neighbor.

"Our love for God is only as great as our love for those whom we love the least!"

ChangedByHim
Jun 26th 2013, 12:30 AM
There is a lot of wisdom in the last two posts!!

I wrote this in another thread recently, the "spreading of the gospel" in western Christendom is not how it looks like in the Bible. I think LandShark's post above really points to this. The churches have not done a good job at teaching discipleship, so we have a bunch of "mini evangelists" going around "spreading the gospel" without a good foundation of what that means.

In the NT, evangelism taught people how to be disciples, it was taught that people "pick up their cross daily and follow me", "loss is gain in Christ", "to lose your life is to save it".
Being a disciple costs us everything.

The requirement is what nimbleswillgrace said above, to Love the Lord and love others, being Christ in the world. If someone asks, I tell, otherwise we are servants, showing the world what Christ looks like.
Val, do you believe that there is no place for the western style of evangelism - e.g., Billy Graham crusades? Or are you saying that more needs to happen afterwards in terms of discipleship?

Do you feel that an "altar call" for salvation should be given in a church meeting where there are unsaved people attending?

Valencia
Jun 26th 2013, 12:56 AM
Val, do you believe that there is no place for the western style of evangelism - e.g., Billy Graham crusades? Or are you saying that more needs to happen afterwards in terms of discipleship?
I think western evangelism needs to change - saying a sinner's prayer is not salvation, either is an alter call - we need to carry through with people and teach them how to be and what it means to be a disciple of Christ. It's too lax, we worry more about the sound system then we do teaching discipleship (and I am in no way saying every church is like this), but there are plenty who do.

I think American Christendom is proof of this. We can not tell a Christian from the world in many cases - why? Because they are not disciples. This is my opinion and other's may disagree and it's ok. ;)


Do you feel that an "altar call" for salvation should be given in a church meeting where there are unsaved people attending?
Do you think an altar call is going to "save" a person?

I don't think we are "saved", we are working out our salvation with fear and trembling, it's an on-going process. People claim Christ and they claim salvation, but we will know them by their fruit, right?

What do you think needs to be done, CBH? Or are you satisfied with how the Church is represented in the west?

ChangedByHim
Jun 26th 2013, 01:06 AM
I think western evangelism needs to change - saying a sinner's prayer is not salvation, either is an alter call - we need to carry through with people and teach them how to be and what it means to be a disciple of Christ. It's too lax, we worry more about the sound system then we do teaching discipleship (and I am in no way saying every church is like this), but there are plenty who do.

I think American Christendom is proof of this. We can not tell a Christian from the world in many cases - why? Because they are not disciples. This is my opinion and other's may disagree and it's ok. ;)

Do you think an altar call is going to "save" a person?

I don't think we are "saved", we are working out our salvation with fear and trembling, it's an on-going process. People claim Christ and they claim salvation, but we will know them by their fruit, right?

What do you think needs to be done, CBH? Or are you satisfied with how the Church is represented in the west?

Your answers are troublesome. Discipleship is not salvation but comes after. Were the 3,000 saved on the day of Pentecost after Peter preached?

You do not think we are saved? We are only working towards salvation? I have strong feelings about that but I will tame the tongue. I AM SAVED! Washed in the blood... I had my own version of a sinner's prayer on May 10, 1983 on a street corner by myself. I asked Jesus to save me and He instantly delivered me from drug addiction and severe depression. I give an altar call almost every time I preach. And yes people are saved. As a church we then disciple them. I lead people to Jesus on the street, at church, everywhere I go. I then set out to mentor and disciple them.

I am lost on your thinking. The need for discipleship does not negate the call for sinners to repent and come to Jesus. How do you propose that we carry this out?


EDIT: Please forgive me if I seem shocked by your response. I mean no offense. I guess I'm a little naive on what other people believe.

Valencia
Jun 26th 2013, 01:09 AM
Your answers are troublesome. Discipleship is not salvation but comes after. Were the 3,000 saved on the day of Pentecost after Peter preached?

You do not think we are saved? We are only working towards salvation? I have strong feelings about that but I will tame the tongue. I AM SAVED! Washed in the blood... I had my own version of a sinner's prayer on May 10, 1983 on a street corner by myself. I asked Jesus to save me and He instantly delivered me from drug addiction and severe depression. I give an altar call almost every time I preach. And yes people are saved. As a church we then disciple them. I lead people to Jesus on the street, at church, everywhere I go. I then set out to mentor and disciple them.

I am lost on your thinking. The need for discipleship does not negate the call for sinners to repent and come to Jesus. How do you propose that we carry this out?

I think alot of people who claim they are "saved" and have no fruit might not be saved. There are many who are called, but few are chosen. The way is narrow and few find it. Those should be disturbing for all of us.

ChangedByHim
Jun 26th 2013, 01:12 AM
I think alot of people who claim they are "saved" and have no fruit might not be saved. There are many who are called, but few are chosen. The way is narrow and few find it. Those should be disturbing for all of us.

Is my calling to examine one's fruit for salvation and let them know when they pass the exam? Or is it my job share the gospel and disciple them?

You didn't address my other concerns. If that's by choice then I'm fine with that.

mikebr
Jun 26th 2013, 01:19 AM
Based on results of American evangelism, we have failed miserably at loving God. :(


We have been taught and told that God loves you if...............? We can only love God to the degree that we believe He loves us. The sin may be not believing that God loves us when scripture plainly teaches us that He does and always has.

Valencia
Jun 26th 2013, 01:24 AM
Is my calling to examine one's fruit for salvation and let them know when they pass the exam?"

I was only quoting the Bible in response to you: Matthew 7 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.


Or is it my job share the gospel and disciple them?
Do you not make a judgement of those who are bearing bad fruit? What if they are teaching the fold assigned to you something other than what you call Biblical?
Would it be judging on your part if you went to that person and spoke to them about "their bad fruit"


You didn't address my other concerns. If that's by choice then I'm fine with that.

There is more to "salvation" then what the western evangelical movement has taught, unless one doesn't believe what the Bible says about it.

ChangedByHim
Jun 26th 2013, 03:44 AM
First off Val, I have really enjoyed your posts and thoughts on here.


I was only quoting the Bible in response to you: Matthew 7 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Of course I am familiar with these verses. Is this the great commission? Or the greatest commandment? Or is it a way for me to know who still needs reached? The latter, obviously.



Do you not make a judgement of those who are bearing bad fruit? What if they are teaching the fold assigned to you something other than what you call Biblical?
Would it be judging on your part if you went to that person and spoke to them about "their bad fruit"
I have no problem judging. But the subject is evangelism. See above for how I think it relates.




There is more to "salvation" then what the western evangelical movement has taught, unless one doesn't believe what the Bible says about it.
More. MORE. Yes, that is the operative word. Not instead of, but more.

Let me present my case with the Word:

PREACHING v. 40
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

SALVATION v. 41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

DISCIPLESHIP v. 42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

(Acts 2:40-42 KJV)

Please tell me what I've said different than what is presented here in Acts 2:40-42. Let's be teachable and not dig in.

I love you in The Lord :)

Nick
Jun 26th 2013, 04:12 AM
Two questions:

1. What do you believe Evangelism is, according to the New Testament?
2. Based on your answer to number 1, what do you believe your requirement is individually?

Making disciples of all nations. Evangelism should lead into discipleship.

Valencia
Jun 26th 2013, 12:45 PM
First off Val, I have really enjoyed your posts and thoughts on here.
Thanks CBH, I have enjoyed your posts, too!



Of course I am familiar with these verses. Is this the great commission? Or the greatest commandment? Or is it a way for me to know who still needs reached? The latter, obviously.
This was stated to indicate how we could know a believer from a non-believer. Good point, a person could take take it as a "sign" this person needed "witnessing to".



I have no problem judging. But the subject is evangelism. See above for how I think it relates.
Yes and you just stated you judge a person by their good/bad fruit in order to "know who still needs to be reached", so this does relate to evangelism.





Let me present my case with the Word:

PREACHING v. 40
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

SALVATION v. 41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

DISCIPLESHIP v. 42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

(Acts 2:40-42 KJV)

Please tell me what I've said different than what is presented here in Acts 2:40-42. Let's be teachable and not dig in.
I don't think you have said anything differently.

If you take the verse in 41 above, these people have now just entered the race, it is the beginning for them, and gives no indication their race is done and over with.

Verse 42 - this is way the church began, but it's far removed from this now.



I love you in The Lord :)
:hug:

I will try to answer you when I can, CBH, the next two weeks are going to be really busy for me. Please be patient if I don't respond right away. :)

episkopos
Jun 26th 2013, 01:15 PM
Making disciples of all nations. Evangelism should lead into discipleship.

Discipleship is every hour of every day...this requires full time churches...not just Sunday "services". We have been shown the model of discipleship in the NT. But who wants to change their lives to THAT extent? Is there really ANY discipleship today?

ChangedByHim
Jun 26th 2013, 02:47 PM
Thanks for the responses Val. As people, we tend to end up in a ditch on the side of the road. In other words, we get out of balance and emphasize one thing at the expense of all others. In this case, it's evangelism as currently presented (preach gospel and give invitation). However, often in our attempts to correct the problem of being out of balance, we end up in the ditch on the other side of the road. We emphasize discipleship at the expense of casting out the net. Paul said in Romans 10, how shall they hear without a preacher? My point is simply that we need to do both. Preach the gospel and then disciple those who respond.

I hope your busy two weeks go better than expected :)

Nick
Jun 26th 2013, 03:11 PM
Discipleship is every hour of every day...this requires full time churches...not just Sunday "services". We have been shown the model of discipleship in the NT. But who wants to change their lives to THAT extent? Is there really ANY discipleship today?

Then the bible should be rewritten. What does Jesus say about it? "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” You preach to the masses to disciple the few. Jesus also said, "many are called but few are chosen."

RabbiKnife
Jun 26th 2013, 03:14 PM
Discipleship is every hour of every day...this requires full time churches...not just Sunday "services". We have been shown the model of discipleship in the NT. But who wants to change their lives to THAT extent? Is there really ANY discipleship today?

Which model of discipleship is that, and where is it found in the NT?

Specifically I mean by that, what discipleship model is used by the apostles?

mikebr
Jun 26th 2013, 06:37 PM
The gospel is for "everyone," not just those we love. The Great Commission is to make disciples, that is the part that is in command form Nimble. But the love of God is WE do His commands, and number 1 is "love God." You can't do the Father's work unless we FIRST love the Father.

Aren't we supposed to love everyone? I'm saying that we are trying to make disciples out of people we don't love. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

mikebr
Jun 26th 2013, 06:39 PM
Val, do you believe that there is no place for the western style of evangelism - e.g., Billy Graham crusades? Or are you saying that more needs to happen afterwards in terms of discipleship?

Do you feel that an "altar call" for salvation should be given in a church meeting where there are unsaved people attending?
Altar calls are fairly new in the grand scheme things, 2nd Great Awakening type stuff. Did people evangelize before altar calls?

ChangedByHim
Jun 26th 2013, 07:49 PM
Altar calls are fairly new in the grand scheme things, 2nd Great Awakening type stuff. Did people evangelize before altar calls?

Altar call is just a term. I generally despise all religious terms not found in the Bible (pulpit, altar call, worship service, etc.), but sometimes I just can't think of anything better to call them that people will understand. I mean, "service?" Who is getting served?

Anyway, it would see, that Peter and the early disciples beckoned people to respond after preaching. That's really no different.

episkopos
Jun 26th 2013, 07:57 PM
Which model of discipleship is that, and where is it found in the NT?

Specifically I mean by that, what discipleship model is used by the apostles?

The kingdom model exemplified by Jesus Himself. Since the disciples were few in number a lot of time could be taken to know each one thoroughly. A shared life, daily prayer and team ministering.
A leader is one whom God has dealt with and "inspected". As the younger brothers see the brokenness of the example that the older brother shows...they learn. Christ-like character begets Christ-like character.

It's about learning to give. A leader who has given all for His Master, will be able to give a godly example to the younger ones.

episkopos
Jun 26th 2013, 08:02 PM
Altar call is just a term. I generally despise all religious terms not found in the Bible (pulpit, altar call, worship service, etc.), but sometimes I just can't think of anything better to call them that people will understand. I mean, "service?" Who is getting served?

Anyway, it would see, that Peter and the early disciples beckoned people to respond after preaching. That's really no different.

If it's beckoned then it where is the Spirit? Are we to try pumping up the volume for God. Or allow the Spirit to move as He wills?

A soft word can break a bone... so to speak. When we speak from God..things happen. All the sales type hoopla we see in church "services" are a shame and a poor imitation of an actual move of God.

ChangedByHim
Jun 26th 2013, 08:08 PM
The kingdom model exemplified by Jesus Himself. Since the disciples were few in number a lot of time could be taken to know each one thoroughly. A shared life, daily prayer and team ministering.
A leader is one whom God has dealt with and "inspected". As the younger brothers see the brokenness of the example that the older brother shows...they learn. Christ-like character begets Christ-like character.

It's about learning to give. A leader who has given all for His Master, will be able to give a godly example to the younger ones.

Good post......

ChangedByHim
Jun 26th 2013, 08:10 PM
If it's beckoned then it where is the Spirit? Are we to try pumping up the volume for God. Or allow the Spirit to move as He wills?

A soft word can break a bone... so to speak. When we speak from God..things happen. All the sales type hoopla we see in church "services" are a shame and a poor imitation of an actual move of God.

Beckon has nothing to do with volume. We are the preacher and the Holy Spirit is the One who convicts ( John 16:7).

And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. (Mark 16:20 KJV)

episkopos
Jun 26th 2013, 08:28 PM
Beckon has nothing to do with volume. We are the preacher and the Holy Spirit is the One who convicts ( John 16:7).

And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. (Mark 16:20 KJV)


Agreed! But the Spirit moves in gentleness not by a man's determination and will. There is a big difference between preaching to the lost and teaching in the church.

Preaching allows for an impassioned plea since it is normally given in an oratorical style.

But teaching should always be done gently and with ample room for questions. The NT model for teaching is the Greek dialogos which means a back and forth conversational style. This is what is to be used in the church. The preaching is for outside.

RabbiKnife
Jun 26th 2013, 08:49 PM
The kingdom model exemplified by Jesus Himself. Since the disciples were few in number a lot of time could be taken to know each one thoroughly. A shared life, daily prayer and team ministering.
A leader is one whom God has dealt with and "inspected". As the younger brothers see the brokenness of the example that the older brother shows...they learn. Christ-like character begets Christ-like character.

It's about learning to give. A leader who has given all for His Master, will be able to give a godly example to the younger ones.

Did the apostles follow this "kingdom model"?

episkopos
Jun 26th 2013, 09:07 PM
Did the apostles follow this "kingdom model"?

It is believed that the apostles followed the same Spirit as their Master did.

RabbiKnife
Jun 26th 2013, 09:18 PM
It is believed that the apostles followed the same Spirit as their Master did.

Please answer my question. I'm not talking about what Spirit was followed.

You previously cited Jesus' example of (a) small number of disciples, (b) a shared life (not sure what that means), (c) daily prayer and (d) team ministering. You also stated that "a lot of time could be taken to know each [disciple] thoroughly", the inference being that this "lot of time" is an essential part of the model.

My question is, did the apostles follow that model.

ChangedByHim
Jun 26th 2013, 09:19 PM
Please answer my question. I'm not talking about what Spirit was followed.

You previously cited Jesus' example of (a) small number of disciples, (b) a shared life (not sure what that means), (c) daily prayer and (d) team ministering. You also stated that "a lot of time could be taken to know each [disciple] thoroughly", the inference being that this "lot of time" is an essential part of the model.

My question is, did the apostles follow that model.
RK, may I ask you if you see anything wrong with that model?

RabbiKnife
Jun 26th 2013, 09:25 PM
RK, may I ask you if you see anything wrong with that model?

There is nothing with it as a model. But the inference that it is the only model is not correct.

And I don't see substantive evidence in the NT that the apostles following that model exclusively, or that they made it a demand.

episkopos
Jun 26th 2013, 10:27 PM
Please answer my question. I'm not talking about what Spirit was followed.

You previously cited Jesus' example of (a) small number of disciples, (b) a shared life (not sure what that means), (c) daily prayer and (d) team ministering. You also stated that "a lot of time could be taken to know each [disciple] thoroughly", the inference being that this "lot of time" is an essential part of the model.

My question is, did the apostles follow that model.

Of course they did. We know of Polycarp and possibly Ignatius that were disciples of John. Peter took John Mark under his wing so to speak. Paul took Timothy and Titus...Other than that we know very little.

With the influx of many people later on the original model was watered down...as well as persecutions taking the more spiritual among the brethren. By the time Christianity became the state religion of Rome...the transition from a careful daily spiritual discipleship to a religious Sunday service was complete. The mainstream from there on was an ecclesiastical organization called Christianity.

episkopos
Jun 26th 2013, 10:30 PM
There is nothing with it as a model. But the inference that it is the only model is not correct.

And I don't see substantive evidence in the NT that the apostles following that model exclusively, or that they made it a demand.



But that is both the strength and the weakness of the faith in Christ. Jesus Christ is not a taskmaster that demands things. He says "Follow Me" then He walks away. If we don't follow...then He won't beg us to.

So the model is there for all to see...if they can see.

What other model did you have in mind?