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ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 02:54 AM
What happens when a leader falls into sin? Should there be immediate restoration? Should there be complete removal? Does the Bible tell us how the church should respond? Much debate has centered on these and other questions. The solution of some has been to just ignore the problem and hope it goes away on its own. It doesn't.

The Bible specifically tells us how to respond to a leader that falls into sin. The passage is found in 1 Timothy 5:19-22.

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality. Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure. (I Timothy 5:19-22 NKJV)

mikebr
Jul 3rd 2013, 03:18 AM
What happens when a leader falls into sin? Should there be immediate restoration? Should there be complete removal? Does the Bible tell us how the church should respond? Much debate has centered on these and other questions. The solution of some has been to just ignore the problem and hope it goes away on its own. It doesn't.

The Bible specifically tells us how to respond to a leader that falls into sin. The passage is found in 1 Timothy 5:19-22.

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality. Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure. (I Timothy 5:19-22 NKJV)

Maybe, make sure our own noses are clean too.

Noeb
Jul 3rd 2013, 04:56 AM
Fall? or finally found out?

1Tim 5:19 just requires two or three witnesses for an accusation to be accepted as possibly legit against an elder. Not required for everyone else.
All (elder or not) were to be rebuked before all 1Tim 5:20.
To be done w/o partiality 1Tim 5:21.

Oh how different churches would be. It would first clean up leadership and solve a lot.

Dani H
Jul 3rd 2013, 05:12 AM
I haven't ever yet met anybody who "fell" into sin ... "those who are sinning" implies active, continuing behavior, not an "oopsie, I tripped" situation.

Paul plainly laid out the requirements for leadership to begin with. If those are no longer met, then your qualifications for leadership are voided, and you will have to step down, re-qualify and prove yourself all over again. It takes time to produce good fruit, and it takes time to restore faith in one's leadership abilities. God is a lot harder on leaders than He is on non-leaders, so why should the Church not be? There should absolutely not be immediate restoration to leadership. Fellowship, sure. But leadership? That's a different story.

ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 05:14 AM
Fall? or finally found out?
.
It's usually the latter... even in the Bible... "Thou art the man."

ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 05:26 AM
[COLOR="#800080"][FONT=Comic Sans MS]I haven't ever yet met anybody who "fell" into sin


Perhaps you should read through your New Testament again...

Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.” (Matthew 15:14 NKJV)

I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. (Romans 11:11 NKJV)

Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way. (Romans 14:13 NKJV)

You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4 NKJV)

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, (II Thessalonians 2:3 NKJV)

not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. (I Timothy 3:6, 7 NKJV)

But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. (I Timothy 6:9 NKJV)

Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. (Hebrews 4:11 NKJV)

if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:6 NKJV)

Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; (II Peter 1:10 NKJV)

You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; (II Peter 3:17 NKJV)

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, (Jude 1:24 NKJV)

Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. (Revelation 2:5 NKJV)

Dani H
Jul 3rd 2013, 05:50 AM
None of these verses, far as I can tell, have to do with "falling into sin" but rather "falling away from faith" and forsaking Christ and becoming estranged from Him to the point of destruction and perdition. This isn't talking about a pastor who got tempted and slept with the church secretary or the lady who came to see him for a counseling session or two. Most of these people described are in a severe crisis of faith that are either in danger of turning their backs on Jesus Himself (such as the would-be law-keepers in Galatians 5) or missed the boat altogether (such as Israel in Romans 11).

And by that point ... qualifying for any sort of church leadership is going to be the least of your problem. These are people whose very foundation of their faith is on shaky grounds. Paul's gravest warnings usually had to do with "quit looking to or at something that's a cheap substitute of simple faith in Christ Himself", because once you head down that road, everything else follows, and you will become that person who has to do their "first works" all over again and start from scratch, basically by rebuilding everything on that foundation of the Lord Himself. Paul's most diligent efforts were always focused on lifting up nothing but Jesus and never causing anybody under his care to become so blinded or distracted by anything other people were doing (including Paul) that they lost their attention and faith in the Savior Himself.

Apples and oranges?

ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 05:53 AM
You don't think these verses refer to falling into sin?

Not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. (I Timothy 3:6, 7 NKJV)

But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. (I Timothy 6:9 NKJV)

episkopos
Jul 3rd 2013, 12:11 PM
What happens when a leader falls into sin? Should there be immediate restoration? Should there be complete removal? Does the Bible tell us how the church should respond? Much debate has centered on these and other questions. The solution of some has been to just ignore the problem and hope it goes away on its own. It doesn't.

The Bible specifically tells us how to respond to a leader that falls into sin. The passage is found in 1 Timothy 5:19-22.

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality. Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure. (I Timothy 5:19-22 NKJV)


The enemy lays elaborate traps for leaders in the church. If he can spoil the shepherd...the flock will scatter. The enemy will wait his time.

To be sure the dangers are greater for a leader than for one who "keeps his head down". The very exultation (in the Spirit not the flesh) of the flag of Christ makes the enemy's anger boil.


I fully see the role of an overseer of the church as a planted flag. God plants the fellowship of the saints around a man. His flag! The spiritual ground that this represents is an open challenge to the devil himself. God is the one raising this flag through the man whom he has anointed for that purpose.

The overseer is like a man chained to a wall. He is there to die well and be an example to the flock. He is spiritual bait, as it were, for attacks from all sides...from within the body and without.


They know not what they do.

The problem arises when the overseer thinks somehow he is not the bait...but the leader and benefactor of the anointing of God. He can forget that God's Son was here to suffer....not to enjoy dominion over others.

It is here that the devil will find a weakness and exploit it. Pride comes before a fall. And success in ministry pretty well leads to pride...until that leader is broken completely.

God will allow that leader to fail and fall in order to teach the vital lesson of brokenness.

The body will invariably feel both shame and sympathy for the fallen one. But the breaking is meant as a lesson for all...not just a judgment for one man who was exalted then laid low. All who raise their heads over the trench wall are going to be a target for snipers.

But a man who fails at this level should be removed for the time necessary to heal the effects that the lesson caused both in the man himself AND in the flock. A man should not be allowed back in the saddle again until all the fallout is fully dealt with and then some.

The question is....what has the body learned?

We are all human and to take on the full weight of attacks from the devil has not entered into the minds of those who so easily criticize their leaders.

So a leader has to be able to "take it" from all sides. He is especially responsible for a good conduct both from within the church and without. He must become a living sacrifice...a man chained to the wall. And He must rejoice in these chains. Victory over the enemy is in those chains. God works around the flags HE plants. The battle is the Lord's. But the overseer is the target!!!

Only the Holy Spirit can prepare a man for this.

ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 12:18 PM
Following the instruction of the text listed in the OP:

Step #1: (v. 19) Due to the honor of the position, a leaders must not be accused without two or three reliable witnesses. The church is told to not receive any accusations which are unconfirmed. This is difficult for some, as many want to believe the worst about a leader on the basis of hearsay.

Upon the evidence of two or three reliable witnesses, a leader is to be confronted about his sin. He should be given the facts of the witnesses and given an opportunity to either confirm or deny them. When it becomes established that the elder has fallen into sin, the church leadership should proceed with step #2.

Step #2: (v. 20) The sinning leader should be publicly rebuked. There are certain situations where this would not apply. However, we must not change the instructions of the Holy Word of God! The purpose of this rebuke is not to humiliate the offender but to cause the congregation to fear God. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. When sin is tolerated among the leadership, it will run rampant in the congregation.

What type of sin would require this extreme measure? The list in 1
Corinthians 5:11 and 6:9-10 serves well:

a. Fornicator
b. Covetous man
c. Idolater
d. Reviler
e. Drunkard
f. Extortioner
g. Adulterer
h. Homosexual
i. Sodomite
j. Thief

These types of offenders have no place in the Kingdom of God (I Cor. 6:9-10). The Church is forbidden to fellowship with them (I Cor. 5:11). Certainly they have no place in leadership.

Step #3: (v. 21) These instructions are to be followed without prejudice and partiality. Regardless of how well-liked an individual is, there can be no partiality in administering divine correction.

Step #4: Verse 22 says: "Do not lay hands on anyone hastily.” This is making reference to the appointment of leaders. Keeping with the context of the passage, it refers to the reinstatement of leaders. The counterpoint of this admonition is: "Nor share in other people's sins" (v. 22b). By laying hands on an offending leader too hastily to reinstate him, the leadership team is sharing in the sin of the former leader.

If reinstatement is not to be done hastily, the conclusion is that it is to be done patiently and progressively. Some believe that it should not be done at all, but this isn't what Paul is saying. There are certain instances of failure where restoration to leadership is not capable. However, this does not preclude one from restoration to God and the family of God.

In most cases the patient and progressive route is available. This would be considered a probationary period. How long should this be? It is dependent on the individual progress of the person, as well as the level of failure from which one is overcoming. The family of the leader being restored is also of primary consideration. Rushing back into ministry can result in further damage.

Obviously, there can be other types of personal failures that do not require such a lengthy process. Further, any timeframe followed should not be approached in a legalistic way; there will always be exceptions. On the flip side, there are some who will not respond to correction whether it’s two years or twenty years. The bottom line is that Biblical restoration can be successfully completed. The process may seem slow, but it is well worth the effort and time spent.

carboy
Jul 3rd 2013, 01:02 PM
Your list from a to j is why we need to be tested. Some calculations have Paul approx. being called into what he was called for to be nine years from conversion, and he was still listed as Barnabas and Paul. He was still under the discipleship of Barnabas. Moses was in the wilderness for 30 years.

Beyond reproach is beyond reproach. We can be restored to fellowship and still be used of God in the capacity of His calling but to be in "visible" leadership is simply a bad witness. What integrity is there in a leader who leaves his wife and children, goes off with the secretary, divorces and marries the secretary and six months later is being "restored" into ministry? It's a joke, not love.

Take it as a blessing when being restored to fellowship, leadership is difficult and serious. Serve God and love His people. We throw leadership around today like everyone should be doing it.

And we do sin. When a leader is caught in a fault it should be between the one or two who know. Fruits of repentance should be immediate and accountable to the one or two that know but if word gets out it can destroy a ministry. Gossip can be worse than the sin. We need to let leaders know when we believe there is a fault and keep silent to others. This helps leaders to be accountable.

How many people just went along with a **Pastors not here to defend themselves** in the early years because things were going well yet they knew stuff was starting to happen. We need to keep leaders accountable. How many leaders and ministries could have been more if leaders weren't lifted into some platform of office. It's good for everyone for leadership to be among the people. Linear and functional, not a level above and then the people.

Dani H
Jul 3rd 2013, 01:04 PM
You don't think these verses refer to falling into sin?

Not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. (I Timothy 3:6, 7 NKJV)

But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. (I Timothy 6:9 NKJV)

Alright, maybe we're hung up on semantics.

What does "falling into sin" mean to you?

Because the times I've sinned and know that others have sinned, happens through decisions we make. Everything in life hangs on decisions. We choose to do anything, before we ever do it. There's a process involved. That process may happen very quickly, or it may take a while. Still a process, either way. And, God holds us all accountable for our own decisions, because the fruit of the Spirit includes self-control.

If we can both agree that "falling into sin" never happens subconsciously or accidentally, then maybe we can get somewhere. Sinning is a conscious, active thing that we knowingly participate in. There's no victim in sin other than those who have been sinned against; and even then, they're expected to choose forgiveness, and we're to pray for our enemies, and so forth. Because the only people who lack the ability to make true, conscious decisions for themselves are very small children and the truly disabled. Anybody else who is out there living and breathing has exactly zero excuse.

I would never restore anybody to anything, and especially not a leadership position, unless there's a full acknowledgement of one's own responsibility, without holding anything back, being fully truthful about one's own contribution rather than a blaming of others, ever. Because blaming others is something a fallen person does. It's the game Adam and Eve played after they ate that fruit, and one that God isn't a fan of. I personally wonder if they hadn't played that game, would God have let them stay in the garden?

Taking full responsibility for one's own behavior 100% of the time is what God expects from us as believers, and what we ought to expect from one another, before we go any further in any sort of restoration process regarding any trespass. Anybody in leadership ought to be the first person to humble themselves and confess their shortcomings and take full responsibility for them. Because humility is the #1 qualification for anything, if I read my Bible properly. Because the world plays the blame game, and it's of course never the leader who accepts responsibility, and that's how corruption happens and governmental authority ends up perverted and a mockery of itself. We're not to be walking in the ways of the world. We're to be walking in humility before God and other people. And if you lack that, then you don't get to wear a leadership hat because you still have a lot of learning and growing to do. You can only lead others to the place where you, yourself, in fact are. And if that place is something other than humility and transparency, then why would anybody follow you? The point of spiritual leadership is to lead a person to maturity in Christ, and Jesus displayed humility perfectly by always being submitted to the Father 100% of the time, without question.

So then Jesus is the standard, always, and that's what we have to apply, every time.

RabbiKnife
Jul 3rd 2013, 01:09 PM
Upon discovery of sin that is of the type referenced and public rebuke, the leader:

a. Should immediately remove himself/herself from any leadership position... (if they don't, that means they aren't qualified for the position to start with)
b. A group of mature believers should immediately join with the leader in honest discussion of the path that lead to the sin
c. The leader needs to spend a significant period of time in prayer and fasting and honest evaluation of spiritual condition
d. The group of mature believers and the leader should work out a plan for renewal, growth, safeguards, and accountability
e. When the group and the leader are satisfied that the root cause of the original sin has been dealt with, the leader should be recommissioned to full public leadership

And to Carboy, please be careful. Chuck Swindoll is as squeaky clean as you can get. Perhaps you meant "Swaggart."

ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 01:40 PM
Dani, lets not get hung up on a word. To me, you are either standing or falling. To sin after the knowledge of the truth is to fall into Satan's trap. It makes one no less accountable. I think you can see from my post on this matter that I believe in accountability. "Fall" is a biblical term and does not imply that one has not chosen to sin.

ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 01:40 PM
And to Carboy, please be careful. **Pastors not here to defend themselves**"
Yeah that took me off guard too....

Lyndie
Jul 3rd 2013, 02:04 PM
Following the instruction of the text listed in the OP:

Step #1: (v. 19) Due to the honor of the position, a leaders must not be accused without two or three reliable witnesses. The church is told to not receive any accusations which are unconfirmed. This is difficult for some, as many want to believe the worst about a leader on the basis of hearsay.

Upon the evidence of two or three reliable witnesses, a leader is to be confronted about his sin. He should be given the facts of the witnesses and given an opportunity to either confirm or deny them. When it becomes established that the elder has fallen into sin, the church leadership should proceed with step #2.

Step #2: (v. 20) The sinning leader should be publicly rebuked. There are certain situations where this would not apply. However, we must not change the instructions of the Holy Word of God! The purpose of this rebuke is not to humiliate the offender but to cause the congregation to fear God. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. When sin is tolerated among the leadership, it will run rampant in the congregation.

What type of sin would require this extreme measure? The list in 1
Corinthians 5:11 and 6:9-10 serves well:

a. Fornicator
b. Covetous man
c. Idolater
d. Reviler
e. Drunkard
f. Extortioner
g. Adulterer
h. Homosexual
i. Sodomite
j. Thief

These types of offenders have no place in the Kingdom of God (I Cor. 6:9-10). The Church is forbidden to fellowship with them (I Cor. 5:11). Certainly they have no place in leadership.

Step #3: (v. 21) These instructions are to be followed without prejudice and partiality. Regardless of how well-liked an individual is, there can be no partiality in administering divine correction.

Step #4: Verse 22 says: "Do not lay hands on anyone hastily.” This is making reference to the appointment of leaders. Keeping with the context of the passage, it refers to the reinstatement of leaders. The counterpoint of this admonition is: "Nor share in other people's sins" (v. 22b). By laying hands on an offending leader too hastily to reinstate him, the leadership team is sharing in the sin of the former leader.

If reinstatement is not to be done hastily, the conclusion is that it is to be done patiently and progressively. Some believe that it should not be done at all, but this isn't what Paul is saying. There are certain instances of failure where restoration to leadership is not capable. However, this does not preclude one from restoration to God and the family of God.

In most cases the patient and progressive route is available. This would be considered a probationary period. How long should this be? It is dependent on the individual progress of the person, as well as the level of failure from which one is overcoming. The family of the leader being restored is also of primary consideration. Rushing back into ministry can result in further damage.

Obviously, there can be other types of personal failures that do not require such a lengthy process. Further, any timeframe followed should not be approached in a legalistic way; there will always be exceptions. On the flip side, there are some who will not respond to correction whether it’s two years or twenty years. The bottom line is that Biblical restoration can be successfully completed. The process may seem slow, but it is well worth the effort and time spent.
A big problem is some churches don't follow this model. The whole 'don't touch God's anointed thing.' Trust me when I tell you I have seen and experienced it first hand.

ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 02:08 PM
A big problem is some churches don't follow this model. The whole 'don't touch God's anointed thing.' Trust me when I tell you I have seen and experienced it first hand.

I think that the "two or three witnesses" covers that Lyndie. We shouldn't touch God's anointed with gossip, slander and accusations.

ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 02:31 PM
Admin edit: Pastors not here to defend themselves
There are more than enough examples. I would request from everyone that we leave names out of this thread. Once you go there then the emphasis is misplaced.

divaD
Jul 3rd 2013, 02:41 PM
I think that the "two or three witnesses" covers that Lyndie. We shouldn't touch God's anointed with gossip, slander and accusations.

Just because someone claims to be God's anointed, that hardly makes it so. I've heard **Pastors not here to defend themselves** use that line numerous times. So the point would be this. Rather than assuming one is God's anointed simply because they say so, maybe you should have said we shouldn't touch any leaders with gossip, slander and accusations. And I would say the same thing about leaders. Just because they are leaders doesn't mean God put every single one of them there. We're already told that the enemy plants tares. And we're already told said satan can masquerade as light. Plus we're told to be on the lookout for wolves in sheep's clothing, and false prophets and false teachers. How can there not be any of these in the leadership behind pulpits? If we don't find any of them there, where do we find them then, so that we can be on guard against them?

RabbiKnife
Jul 3rd 2013, 02:44 PM
Just because someone claims to be God's anointed, that hardly makes it so. I've heard **Pastors not here to defend themselves** use that line numerous times. So the point would be this. Rather than assuming one is God's anointed simply because they say so, maybe you should have said we shouldn't touch any leaders with gossip, slander and accusations. And I would say the same thing about leaders. Just because they are leaders doesn't mean God put every single one of them there. We're already told that the enemy plants tares. And we're already told said satan can masquerade as light. Plus we're told to be on the lookout for wolves in sheep's clothing, and false prophets and false teachers. How can there not be any of these in the leadership behind pulpits? If we don't find any of them there, where do we find them then, so that we can be on guard against them?

How about we do something really radical, like say, maybe not slander, gossip, or accuse anyone without proof?

Lyndie
Jul 3rd 2013, 02:46 PM
I think that the "two or three witnesses" covers that Lyndie. We shouldn't touch God's anointed with gossip, slander and accusations.
We had witnesses but it didn't matter. As far as gossip, slander, and accusations, that depends on someone's definition. Without an accusation of sin, how can we have proper restoration? Isn't that exactly what accusation is? Speaking out against someone who is sinning? As far as gossip, don't get me started on that one.

carboy
Jul 3rd 2013, 02:46 PM
Upon discovery of sin that is of the type referenced and public rebuke, the leader:

a. Should immediately remove himself/herself from any leadership position... (if they don't, that means they aren't qualified for the position to start with)
b. A group of mature believers should immediately join with the leader in honest discussion of the path that lead to the sin
c. The leader needs to spend a significant period of time in prayer and fasting and honest evaluation of spiritual condition
d. The group of mature believers and the leader should work out a plan for renewal, growth, safeguards, and accountability
e. When the group and the leader are satisfied that the root cause of the original sin has been dealt with, the leader should be recommissioned to full public leadership

And to Carboy, please be careful. Chuck Swindoll is as squeaky clean as you can get. Perhaps you meant "Swaggart."

Thanks for the correction

divaD
Jul 3rd 2013, 02:48 PM
There are more than enough examples. I would request from everyone that we leave names out of this thread. Once you go there then the emphasis is misplaced.

It wasn't my intention to bash any of these. I only said this thread brought these names to mind.

divaD
Jul 3rd 2013, 02:52 PM
How about we do something really radical, like say, maybe not slander, gossip, or accuse anyone without proof?

Jesus said one can be known by their fruit. What more proof would be needed than that? That doesn't mean we should slander them I guess, but it does mean we should avoid them unless they truly repent and change their ways. We for sure shouldn't be following any of them.

RabbiKnife
Jul 3rd 2013, 02:56 PM
Agreed, but that's a bit far afield of the OP.

I thought we were talking about what we should do when our leaders fall into sin in terms of process, restoration, etc.


How we should deal with pop religious stars and false prophets is perhaps a whole 'nuther country.

divaD
Jul 3rd 2013, 03:02 PM
Without an accusation of sin, how can we have proper restoration?.

And that should be the main goal, in order that they're properly restored. That should be the motivation behind accusing someone, so that they can be restored if possible, and not to destroy them. But on the other end of that spectrum, the ones the devil has planted, how do you restore them, when it wasn't even God who put them there to begin with?

Scooby_Snacks
Jul 3rd 2013, 03:03 PM
Upon discovery of sin that is of the type referenced and public rebuke, the leader:

a. Should immediately remove himself/herself from any leadership position... (if they don't, that means they aren't qualified for the position to start with)
b. A group of mature believers should immediately join with the leader in honest discussion of the path that lead to the sin
c. The leader needs to spend a significant period of time in prayer and fasting and honest evaluation of spiritual condition
d. The group of mature believers and the leader should work out a plan for renewal, growth, safeguards, and accountability
e. When the group and the leader are satisfied that the root cause of the original sin has been dealt with, the leader should be recommissioned to full public leadership



(That is if they are not currently spending time in prison for the crimes they committed while sinning)I said this because the church dealing with punishable crime within their own walls, is not appropriate for crimes punishable by the laws of the land)

divaD
Jul 3rd 2013, 03:10 PM
How we should deal with pop religious stars and false prophets is perhaps a whole 'nuther country.

Good point then. Maybe for the sake of argument as per this thread, maybe we should all assume the leaders needing restored are the one's that God put there, and what needs to be done if they fall into sin some way.

RabbiKnife
Jul 3rd 2013, 03:13 PM
(That is if they are not currently spending time in prison for the crimes they committed while sinning)I said this because the church dealing with punishable crime within their own walls, is not appropriate for crimes punishable by the laws of the land)

I concur............although a criminal conviction should not be an automatic lifetime ban from public ministry, under the right conditions.

Scooby_Snacks
Jul 3rd 2013, 03:17 PM
I concur............although a criminal conviction should not be an automatic lifetime ban from public ministry, under the right conditions.

Agreed....I have a personal exception though. I do not believe sexual crimes against the flock should ever be allowed to be ministers over others again.

amazzin
Jul 3rd 2013, 07:07 PM
Admin Note:

Naming pastors who cannot be here to defend themselves is not allowed in this forum. Please do not name pastors or their ministries. Your posts will be either deleted or edited.

ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 07:17 PM
Admin Note:

Naming pastors who cannot be here to defend themselves is not allowed in this forum. Please do not name pastors or their ministries. Your posts will be either deleted or edited.

Agree and said the same thing here:


There are more than enough examples. I would request from everyone that we leave names out of this thread. Once you go there then the emphasis is misplaced.

Dani H
Jul 3rd 2013, 07:18 PM
Dani, lets not get hung up on a word.

Beg pardon, but I'm a linguistic nerd, and getting hung up on wording is how I roll. :lol:

ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 07:20 PM
Beg pardon, but I'm a linguistic nerd, and getting hung up on wording is how I roll. :lol:
I guess I "fell" right into that :lol:

Dani H
Jul 3rd 2013, 07:26 PM
I guess I "fell" right into that :lol:

Sha-zaaaaam!

I'm actually on the same page on this with you on this. Accountability in leadership has to happen, and the biblical model is group/co-leadership, not single-person leadership. Because we're all equally human and nobody is immune to weaknesses, shortcomings and failure. We all live in the same war zone with the same enemy prowling about seeking to devour people. And that's just the enemy without. Then there's the one staring at us in the mirror every day ...

At the end of the day, Jesus is more than able to keep anybody from falling away, and keeping Him front and center at all times is absolute key.

ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 07:33 PM
About 18 months ago, I was trying to help a church that lost their pastor due to adultery, which he confessed from the pulpit. The people on the "deacon board" went into total self-preservation mode. Out of fear of doing the wrong thing and getting hurt again, they re-wrote all the bylaws so that the next pastor would have no authority in any decision and would have to have their approval on all matters. They have also taken to liking the platform, taking turns "teaching." They are now almost two years without a shepherd and the flock has all but scattered except this board and their families. It breaks my heart.

What you have there are two errors: 1) the pastor's failure (obvious), but 2) and perhaps more crippling, the body's refusal to go forward.

It's important to follow Biblical pattern and not go from one extreme to the other. And most importantly, keep your eyes on Jesus!

Ultimately, I could not help these people :(

I started this thread to discuss ways to follow the Bible when these things occur and how to heal up properly.

Lyndie
Jul 3rd 2013, 07:41 PM
I don't think a pastor should have sole authority. Isn't that why we have deacons and elders? I don't think that was a proper way to handle that. Because who then hold them accountable?

ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 07:48 PM
I don't think a pastor should have sole authority. Isn't that why we have deacons and elders? I don't think that was a proper way to handle that. Because who then hold them accountable?
Elders help govern. Deacons in the NT served in the physical areas of ministry. There are no "deacon boards" in the NT. There must be checks and balances to prevent abuse and agreement in spirit to move forward.

Dani H
Jul 3rd 2013, 07:49 PM
About 18 months ago, I was trying to help a church that lost their pastor due to adultery, which he confessed from the pulpit. The people on the "deacon board" went into total self-preservation mode. Out of fear of doing the wrong thing and getting hurt again, they re-wrote all the bylaws so that the next pastor would have no authority in any decision and would have to have their approval on all matters. They have also taken to liking the platform, taking turns "teaching." They are now almost two years without a shepherd and the flock has all but scattered except this board and their families. It breaks my heart.

What you have there are two errors: 1) the pastor's failure (obvious), but 2) and perhaps more crippling, the body's refusal to go forward.

It's important to follow Biblical pattern and not go from one extreme to the other. And most importantly, keep your eyes on Jesus!

Ultimately, I could not help these people :(

I started this thread to discuss ways to follow the Bible when these things occur and how to heal up properly.

I wonder how much praying they did over rewriting all these bylaws and how much of that decision happened on the basis of fear, rather than faith.

Of course you couldn't help these people. They were looking to their own rules for protection, rather than God's ways. That always works. Not. :rolleyes:

ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 07:52 PM
I wonder how much praying they did over rewriting all these bylaws and how much of that decision happened on the basis of fear, rather than faith.
I know the answer to that question but it may sound judgmental if I said.


Of course you couldn't help these people. They were looking to their own rules for protection, rather than God's ways. That always works. Not. :rolleyes:It seems that everyone has been affected by this at some point. :(

amazzin
Jul 3rd 2013, 07:54 PM
The biggest error I see is a lack of ecclesiastical oversight either by an eldership or denomination. If one is a non-demo church an eldership/overseers made up of other pastors can be extremely helpful.


About 18 months ago, I was trying to help a church that lost their pastor due to adultery, which he confessed from the pulpit. The people on the "deacon board" went into total self-preservation mode. Out of fear of doing the wrong thing and getting hurt again, they re-wrote all the bylaws so that the next pastor would have no authority in any decision and would have to have their approval on all matters. They have also taken to liking the platform, taking turns "teaching." They are now almost two years without a shepherd and the flock has all but scattered except this board and their families. It breaks my heart.

What you have there are two errors: 1) the pastor's failure (obvious), but 2) and perhaps more crippling, the body's refusal to go forward.

It's important to follow Biblical pattern and not go from one extreme to the other. And most importantly, keep your eyes on Jesus!

Ultimately, I could not help these people :(

I started this thread to discuss ways to follow the Bible when these things occur and how to heal up properly.

ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 08:03 PM
The biggest error I see is a lack of ecclesiastical oversight either by an eldership or denomination. If one is a non-demo church an eldership/overseers made up of other pastors can be extremely helpful.
Unfortunately, the board was aware of the affair 6 months before the resignation, and it was still ongoing. There was a complete lack of oversight. I tried to help them establish this but they resisted and I eventually had to move on. I still stay in contact with them and to my knowledge nothing has changed. They are non-denom.

RabbiKnife
Jul 3rd 2013, 08:05 PM
The biggest error I see is a lack of ecclesiastical oversight either by an eldership or denomination. If one is a non-demo church an eldership/overseers made up of other pastors can be extremely helpful.

Or, just ax me.

I can't tell you how much time I spend giving churches advice on governance from both a biblical and legal perspective.

ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 08:06 PM
Or, just ax me.

I can't tell you how much time I spend giving churches advice on governance from both a biblical and legal perspective.
Is this another ambulance chase? ;)

RabbiKnife
Jul 3rd 2013, 08:09 PM
Is this another ambulance chase? ;)

Nah. Notice it said "giving churches advice"...

I have represented a couple of churches, but not generally with these issues. Although I did work on behalf of a church once that was trying to get out of a $14,000 a month lease that the pastor/"apostle" signed and tried to make the church liable for, even though he signed the lease under a separate legal entity that the church. He would finish one service, run out an hop in the helicopter that he had the church pay for, and fly to the next service at the "new" outpost.

That didn't take too long...

ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 08:12 PM
Nah. Notice it said "giving churches advice"...

I have represented a couple of churches, but not generally with these issues. Although I did work on behalf of a church once that was trying to get out of a $14,000 a month lease that the pastor/"apostle" signed and tried to make the church liable for, even though he signed the lease under a separate legal entity that the church. He would finish one service, run out an hop in the helicopter that he had the church pay for, and fly to the next service at the "new" outpost.

That didn't take too long...
I guess this stuff really happens.... *facepalm*

RabbiKnife
Jul 3rd 2013, 08:20 PM
I guess this stuff really happens.... *facepalm*

Although, you do look a bit like that guy, Bishop , um,,,, um..

Yeah. It really happened. Tore the church apart. I was asked to come in the week after he departed and accused all the elders of being "Sons of Satan" to preach and try to keep the lid from blowing off.

The elders announced his departure that morning to a crowd of about 600, to stunned silence, and then said, "Our lawyer, Bro. RabbiKnife, who is a man of God and a great preacher, has word from God for us."

Then walked out of the pulpit, leaving me in the spotlight.

I preached on Lazarus, and it was a blast.

Although right in the middle of reading the text, a guy jumped up, headed for the exit, and started spouting profanity.

So I stopped, and prayed for peace in the congregation. I actually said in the prayer, "And Lord, please heal the hurt in our brother's heart that just ran out of here screaming "This is bulls***" -- except I didn't use the asterisk, I actually quoted him! Firefighter has that on a recording somewhere.... he'll never let me forget it...


Oh well. Just talking it straight with God....


Oh, yeah, bro... this stuff does happen.

:D

ChangedByHim
Jul 3rd 2013, 08:25 PM
Lol. I'll keep you on speed dial for when I get my helicopter!

That's some crazy stuff :eek:

mikebr
Jul 3rd 2013, 08:43 PM
Lol. I'll keep you on speed dial for when I get my helicopter!

That's some crazy stuff :eek:

There's one here who flies to California every Sunday to preach at his church out there. Although I assume he's on the up and up. Never heard anything negative about him.

amazzin
Jul 3rd 2013, 10:43 PM
Same here. I speak about this all the time. Perhaps you caught my workshop in Tulsa? ;)

Seriously, this is how churches get themselves in a pickle


Or, just ax me.

I can't tell you how much time I spend giving churches advice on governance from both a biblical and legal perspective.

amazzin
Jul 3rd 2013, 10:45 PM
Helicopter crashed right? ;)

:D
Nah. Notice it said "giving churches advice"...

I have represented a couple of churches, but not generally with these issues. Although I did work on behalf of a church once that was trying to get out of a $14,000 a month lease that the pastor/"apostle" signed and tried to make the church liable for, even though he signed the lease under a separate legal entity that the church. He would finish one service, run out an hop in the helicopter that he had the church pay for, and fly to the next service at the "new" outpost.

That didn't take too long...

amazzin
Jul 3rd 2013, 10:46 PM
Don't even get started..............


There's one here who flies to California every Sunday to preach at his church out there. Although I assume he's on the up and up. Never heard anything negative about him.