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Nick
Sep 7th 2013, 05:10 AM
If you don't agree with 100% of a doctrine or a certain theology does that make it all false teaching? For example, there are certain tenets of the reformed theology I believe and other aspects that I'm not so sure. I don't see why that would make the entire doctrine false but some believe that.

fewarechosen
Sep 7th 2013, 05:22 AM
It not being true makes it false doctrine, and also it has nothing to do with what you believe only what is true.

and false doctrine can be mixed with true doctrine, In which case the false parts are false and the true parts are true.

It not being true makes it false doctrine, and also it has nothing to do with what you believe only what is true.

and false doctrine can be mixed with true doctrine, In which case the false parts are false and the true parts are true.

Boo
Sep 7th 2013, 09:43 AM
Satan gets his way in leading us astray by giving us 90% truth mixed with 10% lie.

Our lives are better when we are willing to throw that 10% out and keep the 90%.

We know that 10% to throw out by reading our bibles. Those who don't read their bibles accept also the 10%.

It is possible, also, that we read our bibles but don't believe it because man has taught us that the meaning is something other than what it says. That happens fairly easily when we read only part of the scriptures and not all of it.

God will separate the wheat from the chaff. In our way, in what man teaches, we must do the same.

Slug1
Sep 7th 2013, 09:59 AM
If you don't agree with 100% of a doctrine or a certain theology does that make it all false teaching? For example, there are certain tenets of the reformed theology I believe and other aspects that I'm not so sure. I don't see why that would make the entire doctrine false but some believe that.Nick, do you know how many reformist and how many calvinists don't accepts parts of the respective doctrine of each?

Do they call themselves 1/2 reformist or 1/2 calvinists?

Nope. They call themselves a "Reformist" or a "Calvinist" and they secretly deny portions of their faith because if they admitted this denial to other Reformists or Calvinists, then they would be put out or an effort would be made to indoctrinate them fully.

It is expected that there will be misunderstanding concerning scriptures as a person of faith in God matures from a babe in Christ. However, when a person can take scripture and point out specific errors in a doctrine, as you can with the reformed position... then why accept the position? Just because "some" of it does align with scripture?

No... align yourself with ONLY the scriptures and call yourself a "Christian."

This reminds me... wait, gotta go check the smoker, the pork has been on since 5am and it's almost the first hour... BRB.

When I was getting ready to deploy to Iraq in 2003, I was given new sets of dog-tags. When they asked me my religion, I answered "Christian". The person looked at me and asked me to specify what type of Christian and gave me a list of all the many religions. I handed them back the paper and said... "The type that believes in Jesus Christ". So... I was the only one to have "Christian" stamped on the dog-tags that day.

Stand up for what is 100% scriptural Nick! If a portion is not scriptural, then it's FALSE as a whole! That portion that is false, the Bible defines and has a name for the false parts and the term is "leaven".

Teaching anything that is of the reformist position is "leaven" because of those portions that are not aligned with the Bible.

episkopos
Sep 7th 2013, 12:32 PM
False doctrines leads to death. Sound doctrine leads to life. A bad doctrine reassures a person that if they just believe the doctrine...all will be ok. There is no need them to seek further for the Lord...

But God hates a false claim and a false standard that makes the sufferings of Christ to no account. God goe to a LOT of trouble to bring us to His presence. Woe to those who take away (or add to) the Lord's work.

False doctrines leads to death. Sound doctrine leads to life. A bad doctrine reassures a person that if they just believe the doctrine...all will be ok. There is no need them to seek further for the Lord...

But God hates a false claim and a false standard that makes the sufferings of Christ to no account. God goe to a LOT of trouble to bring us to His presence. Woe to those who take away (or add to) the Lord's work.

Scooby_Snacks
Sep 7th 2013, 02:37 PM
If you don't agree with 100% of a doctrine or a certain theology does that make it all false teaching? For example, there are certain tenets of the reformed theology I believe and other aspects that I'm not so sure. I don't see why that would make the entire doctrine false but some believe that.

I noticed that the argument has started up strongly again (although it is often running in the background) on the forum concerning OSAS NOSAS.

I say when the doctrine is taking center place in a persons life (such as either one of the two mentioned arguments) then the purpose of the enemy is being afforded, and the stronghold takes over.

I know this isn't really an answer to your question, I am however opening up a window of thought.

Amos_with_goats
Sep 7th 2013, 02:45 PM
My (current) understanding is eclectic. Like many here, I have examined my prior positions and after prayer and seeking The Lord I have found some of my prior beliefs wanting.

One of the primary causes of discord in the body, and on this forum is the strong desire for one to share with another what they believe about this or that. We are to do this, and we are commanded to be "firmly persuaded about what we believe"....

... That said, I think it is important to recognize that we all "see through the glass dimly" and none of us have the complete picture (yet). I am thankful that The Lord is faithful to teach me, by His Holy Spirit, and I look forward to what He will show me next.... Even if I have to eat a little crow. :)

Blessings,

Amos_with_goats
Sep 7th 2013, 02:45 PM
My (current) understanding is eclectic. Like many here, I have examined my prior positions and after prayer and seeking The Lord I have found some of my prior beliefs wanting.

One of the primary causes of discord in the body, and on this forum is the strong desire for one to share with another what they believe about this or that. We are to do this, and we are commanded to be "firmly persuaded about what we believe"....

... That said, I think it is important to recognize that we all "see through the glass dimly" and none of us have the complete picture (yet). I am thankful that The Lord is faithful to teach me, by His Holy Spirit, and I look forward to what He will show me next.... Even if I have to eat a little crow. :)

Blessings,

Slug1
Sep 7th 2013, 02:53 PM
I am thankful that The Lord is faithful to teach me, by His Holy Spirit, and I look forward to what He will show me next.... Even if I have to eat a little crow. :)
The Lord has had me eat so much crow since He began to tear down all the bondage's and indoctrination to "doctrines" that churches followed, thus "I" followed, instead of following God... at least now when its happening, He first hands me wood, spices, and I then I know... crow is about to be cooked and ate :)

ChangedByHim
Sep 7th 2013, 03:23 PM
If you don't agree with 100% of a doctrine or a certain theology does that make it all false teaching? For example, there are certain tenets of the reformed theology I believe and other aspects that I'm not so sure. I don't see why that would make the entire doctrine false but some believe that.

Why must man pick and choose from man's theology? Everything must have a label for some reason. Just study the Word and believe what it says. Some things are clearly revealed (every thing which is MAJOR is clearly revealed), while other areas of Scripture are more open for interpretation (many end-time prophecies fit this description). The problem lies when teachers try to be dogmatic about the latter.

Vakeros
Sep 7th 2013, 03:29 PM
Why must man pick and choose from man's theology? Everything must have a label for some reason. Just study the Word and believe what it says. Some things are clearly revealed (every thing which is MAJOR is clearly revealed), while other areas of Scripture are more open for interpretation (many end-time prophecies fit this description). The problem lies when teachers try to be dogmatic about the latter.
Hmm, but not every one agrees what is MAJOR. Is it major if you accept a Calvinistic position?

Slug1
Sep 7th 2013, 03:32 PM
Is it major if you accept a Calvinistic position?Per the OP's topic, here is a question: Do you support the Calvinistic position 100%?

Berean11
Sep 7th 2013, 04:16 PM
Per the OP's topic, here is a question: Do you support the Calvinistic position 100%?

Go back a bit further....to the progenitor of the Protestant churches....

Do you support what Luther taught?

I go to the church/denomination that comes closest to what I believe the scripture teaches.

Peace, Berean11

Boo
Sep 7th 2013, 04:49 PM
Go back a bit further....to the progenitor of the Protestant churches....

Do you support what Luther taught?

I go to the church/denomination that comes closest to what I believe the scripture teaches.

Peace, Berean11

I'd nearly bet that you have not found a denomination that teaches everything that you have come to believe, right?

People hold up Luther as some sort of major player in straightening theology out, yet most here would call him a heretic if he posted in this forum. Is it because the truth changed or is it because our doctrines have changed?

Boo
Sep 7th 2013, 04:51 PM
I have noticed that it is common for people say "just read the bible and believe it."

Then, those same people prove through their doctrines that they don't follow their own advice.

Must not be as simple as the statement claims.

Weird, huh?

ChangedByHim
Sep 7th 2013, 05:01 PM
I have noticed that it is common for people say "just read the bible and believe it."

Then, those same people prove through their doctrines that they don't follow their own advice.

Must not be as simple as the statement claims.

Weird, huh?

Is that so? And who makes the determination that they are wrong? Either the Holy Spirit is our Teacher or He is not.

Boo
Sep 7th 2013, 05:08 PM
Is that so? And who makes the determination that they are wrong? Either the Holy Spirit is our Teacher or He is not.

If the Holy Spirit is actually our teacher, would we not all agree then? Apparently, not all of us get our truth from the Holy Spirit. We must be getting it somewhere else.

Perhaps not all of us really submit to the teachings but hold to that which man has taught us?

Berean11
Sep 7th 2013, 05:22 PM
I'd nearly bet that you have not found a denomination that teaches everything that you have come to believe, right?

People hold up Luther as some sort of major player in straightening theology out, yet most here would call him a heretic if he posted in this forum. Is it because the truth changed or is it because our doctrines have changed?

I did say 'comes closest'. So....no I have not.

And he was a major player since he is the one who was excommunicated eventually for posting his 95 thesis on the unbiblical practice of indulgences. He most certainly did challenge the RCC on several of their unbiblical/non-scriptural 'traditions' and 'teachings' and 'doctrines'. And because he did we now have the 'protestant' denomination in all it's varying forms. He gave people the courage to question what they had been taught....like the scriptures only for the priesthood (and usually only the bishops on up had full access to scripture, even the monks had little access) and not for the common folk. They believed it was too hard for them to understand (and for political issues too. If the people had access to the scripture they would soon find out they were being lied to and led astray. Hence the first bible published for the common use was the German translation, published on the Gutenberg press which in and of itself was pretty astounding....new technology. It was a big threat to the RCC at the time. It was also illegal for the common folk to have a bible).

And, I do not believe most here would call him a heretic if he posted in this forum. For certain many doctrines have changed....but the Word has not. I don't consider him a heretic. I am grateful God raised him up. Did he teach anything that was contrary to scripture. Yep. He did. But for core doctrine....he was as right on that as any man could be. But that is for another thread. If anyone wanted to discuss it.

Are you familiar with what Luther said/wrote/taught? That is a straight question. I have no idea what most folks here are familiar with or studied in.

I would venture to say that some here are not familiar with what John Calvin actually wrote/taught/thought. Instead they are more familiar with this 'hypercalvinism' that grew up and base their dislike on that rather than on what the man himself wrote/taught. I can see why folks would hate the 'calvinism' that they excoriate so vehemently (and those who practice it, not knowing if they are of the 'hypercalvins' or not. They all get lumped into together. Like Charismatics/Pentecostals....The Assemblies of God are far more conservative in their teachings/doctrines in the Pentecostal traditions, but I am sure they are lumped in with the folks who take it too far).

As a matte of fact, Luther is why you have access to a bible today. And history did not did not take any other course. So...a what if argument would be pointless. This is how it happened. I would not minimize his impact on todays churches/teachings.

And if Luther had not done what he did then John Calvin would not have done what he did.

Peace, Berean11

ChangedByHim
Sep 7th 2013, 05:37 PM
If the Holy Spirit is actually our teacher, would we not all agree then? Apparently, not all of us get our truth from the Holy Spirit. We must be getting it somewhere else.

Perhaps not all of us really submit to the teachings but hold to that which man has taught us?

And once more, I ask you, who makes that determination?

*****

Personally, if I'm going to "know someone" it will be by their fruit. If they say the study/believe the Bible, do they go to church? Do they give? Do they help the poor and needy? Do they have a strong prayer life? Do they love their wife like Christ loves the church? Are they a good parent? Do they have the fruit of the Spirit? Are they faithful? Etc.

Maybe some people make this judgment based on one's eschatological beliefs... But if you aren't doing the above, then it makes no difference if your pre and post beliefs are accurate.

Berean11
Sep 7th 2013, 05:59 PM
If you don't agree with 100% of a doctrine or a certain theology does that make it all false teaching? For example, there are certain tenets of the reformed theology I believe and other aspects that I'm not so sure. I don't see why that would make the entire doctrine false but some believe that.

Each church has a 'set' of doctrines/teachings. So, no you don't have to agree 100% and it does not make it all false teaching. Unless, of course, they deny Jesus' deity or the triune nature of the Godhead. Then, you got something to worry about.

Peace, Berean11

episkopos
Sep 7th 2013, 06:22 PM
I have noticed that it is common for people say "just read the bible and believe it."

Then, those same people prove through their doctrines that they don't follow their own advice.

Must not be as simple as the statement claims.

Weird, huh?

Ah! The subtlety of false doctrines is also in what is NOT said. But people don't readily discern that..!

Berean11
Sep 7th 2013, 06:24 PM
Ah! The subtlety of false doctrines is also in what is NOT said. But people don't readily discern that..!

Good point. Hadn't thought of that.


Ah! The subtlety of false doctrines is also in what is NOT said. But people don't readily discern that..!

Good point. Hadn't thought of that.

episkopos
Sep 7th 2013, 06:27 PM
Good point. Hadn't thought of that.



Good point. Hadn't thought of that.

It is not enough to just love what God loves...we must also hate what He hates.

Obfuscate
Sep 7th 2013, 06:51 PM
And if Luther had not done what he did then John Calvin would not have done what he did.


Luther believed the Pope was the Anti-Christ and Calvin and the other counter reformers were Heretics. If he was on this site he would be rebuking most of us. Also, as someone who is part of the Lutheran church it is not about following Martin Luther. It was a movement where he was a vocal leader and one of many intellectual leaders along with the likes of William Tyndall and Philip Melanchthon. The reformers put out a statement of faith (Augsburg Confession) to correct the abuses of Rome:

"This is about the Sum of our Doctrine, in which, as can be seen, there is nothing that varies from the Scriptures, or from the Church Catholic, or from the Church of Rome as known from its writers. This being the case, they judge harshly who insist that our teachers be regarded as heretics. There is, however, disagreement on certain abuses, which have crept into the Church without rightful authority."

http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php

"For all his bulls and books are extant, in which he roars like a lion (as the angel in Rev. 12 depicts him, [crying out] that no Christian can be saved unless he obeys him and is subject to him in all things that he wishes, that he says, and that he does. All of which amounts to nothing less than saying: Although you believe in Christ, and have in Him [alone] everything that is necessary to salvation, yet it is nothing and all in vain unless you regard [have and worship] me as your god, and be subject and obedient to me. And yet it is manifest that the holy Church has been without the Pope for at least more than five hundred years, and that even to the present day the churches of the Greeks and of many other languages neither have been nor are yet under the Pope."

Martin Luther

Berean11
Sep 7th 2013, 09:28 PM
Luther believed the Pope was the Anti-Christ and Calvin and the other counter reformers were Heretics. If he was on this site he would be rebuking most of us. Also, as someone who is part of the Lutheran church it is not about following Martin Luther. It was a movement where he was a vocal leader and one of many intellectual leaders along with the likes of William Tyndall and Philip Melanchthon. The reformers put out a statement of faith (Augsburg Confession) to correct the abuses of Rome:

"This is about the Sum of our Doctrine, in which, as can be seen, there is nothing that varies from the Scriptures, or from the Church Catholic, or from the Church of Rome as known from its writers. This being the case, they judge harshly who insist that our teachers be regarded as heretics. There is, however, disagreement on certain abuses, which have crept into the Church without rightful authority."

http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php

"For all his bulls and books are extant, in which he roars like a lion (as the angel in Rev. 12 depicts him, [crying out] that no Christian can be saved unless he obeys him and is subject to him in all things that he wishes, that he says, and that he does. All of which amounts to nothing less than saying: Although you believe in Christ, and have in Him [alone] everything that is necessary to salvation, yet it is nothing and all in vain unless you regard [have and worship] me as your god, and be subject and obedient to me. And yet it is manifest that the holy Church has been without the Pope for at least more than five hundred years, and that even to the present day the churches of the Greeks and of many other languages neither have been nor are yet under the Pope."

Martin Luther

I was only attempting to show that because one thing occurred another thing occured in consequence. And none of it occured without God permitting or causing it to occur to fulfill His plans and purposes.

I was not advocating or suggesting anyone follow a particular man. Or even that Lutherans do. My apologies if I was really that unclear. Or offensive. That was not my intention at all. Just a progression of events.

And I am familiar with the Augsburg Confession and the other documents (and in fact favor them over Calvins writings) and what Luther thought about the Pope and his vocal opponents. Just attempting to point out that none of that could have occured the way it did without Luther having done what he did. I would also like to say that I believe that it was in God's plans/purposes for that to happen. That is all.



Peace, Berean11

Obfuscate
Sep 7th 2013, 09:32 PM
I was not advocating or suggesting anyone follow a particular man. Or even that Lutherans do. My apologies if I was really that unclear. Or offensive. That was not my intention at all. Just a progression of events.


No offense taken at all :) :hug:

I was just adding to the conversation since Luther, the Pope and Calvin were being discussed.

Berean11
Sep 7th 2013, 09:39 PM
No offense taken at all :) :hug:

I was just adding to the conversation since Luther, the Pope and Calvin were being discussed.

Oh wonderful! We don't get many Lutherans posting much on these issues. Especially the one about....well, I won't go there. At least I don't know they are Lutheran if they are posting.

But I still think we miss much by addressing Luther, Melanchthon and others and only and constantly referring to Calvin. Or Aminius. It just makes us look narrow (in many ways). Church history and teaching/doctrine is very rich and we don't give it much post time here.

Glad to meet you!

Peace, Berean11


No offense taken at all :) :hug:

I was just adding to the conversation since Luther, the Pope and Calvin were being discussed.

Oh wonderful! We don't get many Lutherans posting much on these issues. Especially the one about....well, I won't go there. At least I don't know they are Lutheran if they are posting.

But I still think we miss much by addressing Luther, Melanchthon and others and only and constantly referring to Calvin. Or Aminius. It just makes us look narrow (in many ways). Church history and teaching/doctrine is very rich and we don't give it much post time here.

Glad to meet you!

Peace, Berean11

chad
Sep 7th 2013, 10:30 PM
It would depend on the doctrine that your talking about. You can’t use a ‘blanket statement’ to say that just because you disagree with a certain theology it makes it false.
You have to look at that particular doctrine and say, why do I believe this to be false. What does the bible say about the topic. Am I understanding this in the right context?
Clearly, there are false doctrines, which are contray to what the bible teachers.

Then there is misinterpretation of the use of scripture, using it out of context. For example when Satan tested Jesus in the desert before he began his ministry. He quoted scripture, but used it out of the context it was meant to be used. Jesus countered by quoting scripture in the right context.

And then there are scripture which people cannot accept, because they are not mature enough in Christ to yet accept them or they are not at a level to understand what the scripture is really teaching and saying.

Then there are those who will reject scripture, because it does not line up with their sinful lifestyle they want to justify. For example, homosexuality and gay marriage is ok.



If you don't agree with 100% of a doctrine or a certain theology does that make it all false teaching? For example, there are certain tenets of the reformed theology I believe and other aspects that I'm not so sure. I don't see why that would make the entire doctrine false but some believe that.

Slug1
Sep 7th 2013, 10:47 PM
Go back a bit further....to the progenitor of the Protestant churches....

Do you support what Luther taught?

I go to the church/denomination that comes closest to what I believe the scripture teaches.

Peace, Berean11I don't even know what Luther taught. I grew up in a Calvin following church and was thus, effectively a calvinist when I arrived on this site back in 2005. As I began to be freed of this doctrine I've learned to not follow what others teach, I've learned to follow what God teaches through scriptures.

ChangedByHim
Sep 7th 2013, 11:22 PM
I don't even know what Luther taught. I grew up in a Calvin following church and was thus, effectively a calvinist when I arrived on this site back in 2005. As I began to be freed of this doctrine I've learned to not follow what others teach, I've learned to follow what God teaches through scriptures.
According to some, that can be dangerous :D

Slug1
Sep 8th 2013, 01:38 AM
According to some, that can be dangerous :DHa!

Dangerous to those who are religious or still bound in and following doctrines that people made up to fit what they want to believe and lead others into believing.

Nick
Sep 8th 2013, 02:55 AM
Nick, do you know how many reformist and how many calvinists don't accepts parts of the respective doctrine of each?

Do they call themselves 1/2 reformist or 1/2 calvinists?

Nope. They call themselves a "Reformist" or a "Calvinist" and they secretly deny portions of their faith because if they admitted this denial to other Reformists or Calvinists, then they would be put out or an effort would be made to indoctrinate them fully.

It is expected that there will be misunderstanding concerning scriptures as a person of faith in God matures from a babe in Christ. However, when a person can take scripture and point out specific errors in a doctrine, as you can with the reformed position... then why accept the position? Just because "some" of it does align with scripture?

No... align yourself with ONLY the scriptures and call yourself a "Christian."

This reminds me... wait, gotta go check the smoker, the pork has been on since 5am and it's almost the first hour... BRB.

When I was getting ready to deploy to Iraq in 2003, I was given new sets of dog-tags. When they asked me my religion, I answered "Christian". The person looked at me and asked me to specify what type of Christian and gave me a list of all the many religions. I handed them back the paper and said... "The type that believes in Jesus Christ". So... I was the only one to have "Christian" stamped on the dog-tags that day.

Stand up for what is 100% scriptural Nick! If a portion is not scriptural, then it's FALSE as a whole! That portion that is false, the Bible defines and has a name for the false parts and the term is "leaven".

Teaching anything that is of the reformist position is "leaven" because of those portions that are not aligned with the Bible.

This is the fundamental issue with such a myopic view. If some aspect of one's theology doesn't line up with another's then the entire doctrine is erroneous and considered false teaching. That's an extremist view. Do you disagree with everything about the Reformed position, and by "everything" I mean everything? It reminds me of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Nick
Sep 8th 2013, 03:06 AM
My (current) understanding is eclectic. Like many here, I have examined my prior positions and after prayer and seeking The Lord I have found some of my prior beliefs wanting.

One of the primary causes of discord in the body, and on this forum is the strong desire for one to share with another what they believe about this or that. We are to do this, and we are commanded to be "firmly persuaded about what we believe"....

... That said, I think it is important to recognize that we all "see through the glass dimly" and none of us have the complete picture (yet). I am thankful that The Lord is faithful to teach me, by His Holy Spirit, and I look forward to what He will show me next.... Even if I have to eat a little crow. :)

Blessings,

Well put. Eating crow is by far the best way to learn and grow in wisdom.

Slug1
Sep 8th 2013, 03:06 AM
This is the fundamental issue with such a myopic view. If some aspect of one's theology doesn't line up with another's then the entire doctrine is erroneous and considered false teaching. That's an extremist view. Do you disagree with everything about the Reformed position, and by "everything" I mean everything? It reminds me of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.Reread what I wrote... I said what doesn't align with "SCRIPTURE", not any personal theology a person may have.

I don't have to disagree with any of the reformed position, all I have to do is find any part that is not aligned with the Bible and this "leaven" in that doctrine causes ALL of the doctrine to be RUINED.

1 Cor 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

Nick... you said you renounced the reformed position, to be free... you have to do what this verse tells you to do. PURGE out the old leaven.

Also, concerning leaven and how this equates to what you say... that you find parts of the reformed position not aligning with scripture. Those parts that don't align with scripture is the leaven and according to scripture, these bad parts cause ALL of the doctrine to be bad:

Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

I can post other leaven related verses to help you if you want.

Slug1
Sep 8th 2013, 03:09 AM
Well put. Eating crow is by far the best way to learn and grow in wisdom.Amen... but smoking it in the smoker makes it taste a little better :lol:

Nick
Sep 8th 2013, 03:14 AM
Reread what I wrote... I said what doesn't align with "SCRIPTURE", not any personal theology a person may have.

I don't have to disagree with any of the reformed position, all I have to do is find any part that is not aligned with the Bible and this "leaven" in that doctrine causes ALL of the doctrine to be RUINED.

1 Cor 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

Nick... you said you renounced the reformed position, to be free... you have to do what this verse tells you to do. PURGE out the old leaven.

Also, concerning leaven and how this equates to what you say... that you find parts of the reformed position not aligning with scripture. Those parts that don't align with scripture is the leaven and according to scripture, these bad parts cause ALL of the doctrine to be bad:

Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

I can post other leaven related verses to help you if you want.

Why would I be labelled a reformist if some of their beliefs resonate with me? Why can't we learn from differing points of view, take what we want, and leave the rest? Why are there so many different translations of the Bible? If all the translators agreed with one another then there would be one universal English translation from the Greek and Hebrew but obviously that isn't the case.

Berean11
Sep 8th 2013, 03:47 AM
I don't even know what Luther taught. I grew up in a Calvin following church and was thus, effectively a calvinist when I arrived on this site back in 2005. As I began to be freed of this doctrine I've learned to not follow what others teach, I've learned to follow what God teaches through scriptures.

Well, it surely can't hurt to know the other doctrines taught and who taught them. So when stuff comes up you know what they're talking about and can answer with what you have come to know. John Calvin didn't pop out of nowhere. Luther is considered the founder of the protestant church (as Obfuscation pointed out though there were others, and some that preceeded him). John Calvin disagreed with Luther. But Calvin appeared on the scene after Luther did what he did. Not long after but.... Knowing church history is always a good thing.

I love church history, bible archaeology....oh, anything that will widen my understanding. It's all fascinating and sometimes downright uplifting or it makes me ask more questions.

With that said....it is still sola scriptura (well all 5 sola's) that is the ultimate test and guide to my life and belief.

And I'm not asking or saying you should follow Luther but study his teaching, his life, what he did that changed so much. And some of it for our benefit. Then you will know something of what and where some of us are coming from. I am particularly Calvinist. I most certainly lean heavily toward the present day Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. But I included with the Calvinists. Which isn't really correct. On several issues there is a great difference, including the one we most argue about here.

Peace, Berean11

Slug1
Sep 8th 2013, 03:50 AM
Why would I be labelled a reformist if some of their beliefs resonate with me? Why can't we learn from differing points of view, take what we want, and leave the rest? Why are there so many different translations of the Bible? If all the translators agreed with one another then there would be one universal English translation from the Greek and Hebrew but obviously that isn't the case.Follow the Bible Nick... not any portion of any false doctrine that resonates with you. ALL the Bible will resonate with your spirit... follow the doctrines of the Bible only.

Berean11
Sep 8th 2013, 03:53 AM
Well, it surely can't hurt to know the other doctrines taught and who taught them. So when stuff comes up you know what they're talking about and can answer with what you have come to know. John Calvin didn't pop out of nowhere. Luther is considered the founder of the protestant church (as Obfuscation pointed out though there were others, and some that preceeded him). John Calvin disagreed with Luther. But Calvin appeared on the scene after Luther did what he did. Not long after but.... Knowing church history is always a good thing.

I love church history, bible archaeology....oh, anything that will widen my understanding. It's all fascinating and sometimes downright uplifting or it makes me ask more questions.

With that said....it is still sola scriptura (well all 5 sola's) that is the ultimate test and guide to my life and belief.

And I'm not asking or saying you should follow Luther but study his teaching, his life, what he did that changed so much. And some of it for our benefit. Then you will know something of what and where some of us are coming from. I am particularly Calvinist. I most certainly lean heavily toward the present day Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. But I included with the Calvinists. Which isn't really correct. On several issues there is a great difference, including the one we most argue about here.

Peace, Berean11


That bolded line was supposed to read, "I am NOT particularly Calvinist". And while I am at it....I am not a cessationist either. So, I too am eclectic in my belief system.

Peace, Berean11

Berean11
Sep 8th 2013, 03:59 AM
Also, I started a thread on what the core doctrines of Christianity are. What we have to agree on to be considered a believer/follower of Jesus. Instead of always arguing the differences what is it we hold commonly?

It's not meant to be a debate, but a coming together and agreeing on the most essential doctrines to Christianity. Not the how but the what.

Peace, Berean11

Also, I started a thread on what the core doctrines of Christianity are. What we have to agree on to be considered a believer/follower of Jesus. Instead of always arguing the differences what is it we hold commonly?

It's not meant to be a debate, but a coming together and agreeing on the most essential doctrines to Christianity. Not the how but the what.

Peace, Berean11

Nick
Sep 8th 2013, 04:05 AM
Follow the Bible Nick... not any portion of any false doctrine that resonates with you. ALL the Bible will resonate with your spirit... follow the doctrines of the Bible only.

Following the Bible is how these differing christian theologies emerge. The only thing that make a theology false is someone's differing interpretation.

Slug1
Sep 8th 2013, 04:08 AM
Following the Bible is how these differing christian theologies emerge. The only thing that make a theology false is someone's differing interpretation.Question... didn't you say that you find portions of the reformed position not aligning with scripture? If so, it's not about theology and/or interpretation.

Nick
Sep 8th 2013, 04:10 AM
And once more, I ask you, who makes that determination?

*****

Personally, if I'm going to "know someone" it will be by their fruit. If they say the study/believe the Bible, do they go to church? Do they give? Do they help the poor and needy? Do they have a strong prayer life? Do they love their wife like Christ loves the church? Are they a good parent? Do they have the fruit of the Spirit? Are they faithful? Etc.

Maybe some people make this judgment based on one's eschatological beliefs... But if you aren't doing the above, then it makes no difference if your pre and post beliefs are accurate.

They can appear do all the things mentioned above and still be a phony out for the approval of men and not God.


Question... didn't you say that you find portions of the reformed position not aligning with scripture? If so, it's not about theology and/or interpretation.

Yes, I find their view on free will difficult to digest.

Slug1
Sep 8th 2013, 04:26 AM
Yes, I find their view on free will difficult to digest.Until your personal experience concerning free will, how was your acceptance of scripture blinded? Considering, all the scriptures before your experience were aligned with the reformed position, in that mankind has no free will, but these scriptures do not align any longer... why not?

Nick
Sep 8th 2013, 04:59 AM
For starters, I didn't I believe I could apostatize. My recent experience showed me that was possible, which means one of two things: a) I didn't so I need not worry or b) the risk of falling away is because my house might not be built on the rock just yet. I believe that why Paul and Peter teach is for us to be sure of our election and work out our salvation with fear and trembling. In other words, make sure the house is built on the rock. Once there, we're sealed and under God's protection.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

God electing those who will be saved isn’t controversial. What is controversial is how and in what manner God chooses those who will be saved.

"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

For starters, I didn't I believe I could apostatize. My recent experience showed me that was possible, which means one of two things: a) I didn't so I need not worry or b) the risk of falling away is because my house might not be built on the rock just yet. I believe that is why Paul and Peter teach is for us to be sure of our election and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. In other words, make sure the house is built on the rock. Once there, we're sealed and under God's protection.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

God electing those who will be saved isn’t controversial. What is controversial is how and in what manner God chooses those who will be saved.

"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

For starters, I didn't I believe I could apostatize. My recent experience showed me that was possible, which means one of two things: a) I didn't so I need not worry or b) the risk of falling away is because my house might not be built on the rock just yet. I believe that is why Paul and Peter teach is for us to be sure of our election and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. In other words, make sure the house is built on the rock. Once there, we're sealed and under God's protection.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

God electing those who will be saved isn’t controversial. What is controversial is how and in what manner God chooses those who will be saved.

"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

Boo
Sep 8th 2013, 12:20 PM
And once more, I ask you, who makes that determination?

God does. Our job is to really know what God has given us. It depends on the degree that we are willing to read, willing to listen, willing to study and understand.

In the years that I have been a student of the bible and observing the fruit of the spirit in others, I have learned a few things.

I have learned:

1. Many who claim to study the bible do not.
2. Many who claim to believe anything the bible says do not.
3. Many who claim to love their neighbors do not.
4. Many who claim to have an open spiritual mind do not.
5. Many who have claimed to overcome pride have not.

However, when observing these people, they seem to act just like everyone else while in church.

If my beliefs in what the bible actually says conflicts with what you have determined to be the truth, God knows who is correct. My responsibility is to God. If I refuse to study and think and believe, it is all on me. If I determine a thing to be true and teach it, I had better be correct. If I do not know something for sure, I don't teach it as a truth. I may discuss it as a possible truth, but if I see contradictions anywhere else in scripture, I admit that I have not yet reached "the truth."

I would suppose that all of us here have reached some of the same truths. That is why we are Christians. Can we allow each other to still be seeking the final truth?

Scooby_Snacks
Sep 8th 2013, 12:28 PM
Personally, if I'm going to "know someone" it will be by their fruit. If they say the study/believe the Bible, do they go to church? Do they give? Do they help the poor and needy? Do they have a strong prayer life? Do they love their wife like Christ loves the church? Are they a good parent? Do they have the fruit of the Spirit? Are they faithful? Etc.

Maybe some people make this judgment based on one's eschatological beliefs... But if you aren't doing the above, then it makes no difference if your pre and post beliefs are accurate.


They can appear do all the things mentioned above and still be a phony out for the approval of men and not God.



I was thinking something similar Nick.
A person can build their life on appearances so that no one (even themselves?) will know just how far away from God their heart is.
People give too much credit to appearances-- rather than what comes from the heart.
Now if the inside is clean, the outside will be made clean. Sometimes this outer appearance takes time to translate from the inside.
The outside being clean does not automatically denote the inside being clean.

Galatians 5:22-23.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Here's a test: Observe a person with these character traits, and THEN ask them what their theology is and what doctrine they observe.

episkopos
Sep 8th 2013, 12:34 PM
I was thinking something similar Nick.
A person can build their life on appearances so that no one (even themselves?) will know just how far away from God their heart is.
People give too much credit to appearances-- rather than what comes from the heart.
Now if the inside is clean, the outside will be made clean. Sometimes this outer appearance takes time to translate from the inside.
The outside being clean does not automatically denote the inside being clean.

Galatians 5:22-23.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Here's a test: Observe a person with these character traits, and THEN ask them what their theology is and what doctrine they observe.


Very good! What is our doctrine doing for us?

Scooby_Snacks
Sep 8th 2013, 12:40 PM
Very good! What is our doctrine doing for us?

Yes...IS my relationship with God growing deeper,...or waxing cold.

episkopos
Sep 8th 2013, 12:47 PM
Yes...IS my relationship with God growing deeper,...or waxing cold.

A bad doctrine is like going down the wrong road. After awhile you start to feel you are getting further from the truth..not closer. That's the time to repent (turn around) and get back on track!

Boo
Sep 8th 2013, 12:48 PM
Very good! What is our doctrine doing for us?

Is this like the chicken or the egg?

The doctrines I land on help me to draw closer to God. As I draw closer to God, my life changes. As my life changes, I am able to live more as He wants me to live - not because I am acting like a child of God but because I am a child of God. God changes me.

Our doctrines are simply the truths we cling to. If I have a doctrine that does not serve to draw me closer to being like Jesus , that doctrine needs repair.

Scooby_Snacks
Sep 8th 2013, 01:51 PM
Is this like the chicken or the egg?

The doctrines I land on help me to draw closer to God. As I draw closer to God, my life changes. As my life changes, I am able to live more as He wants me to live - not because I am acting like a child of God but because I am a child of God. God changes me.


Our doctrines are simply the truths we cling to. If I have a doctrine that does not serve to draw me closer to being like Jesus , that doctrine needs repair.

It might be both the chicken and the egg. http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t23/cmyfirepole/Smilies/smiley_chicken.gif (http://media.photobucket.com/user/cmyfirepole/media/Smilies/smiley_chicken.gif.html)http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb187/Musashi102/Smiley.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/Musashi102/media/Smiley.jpg.html)

Neither exist without the other.

Curtis
Sep 8th 2013, 02:01 PM
Like one other posted stated, we are all at different levels of understanding. Our spiritual walk with the Lord is based on our understanding (Wisdom) of scriptures. Every body starts out looking through a glass darkly. Some see more clearly that others. Love always wants to share what it has, so others can enjoy it to. Obviously if you don't understand something in the Bible, and someone else does, there will a time of weighing weather or not it is true to you. But this can only be discerned by the anointing that dwells in each of us. It is a time of "work". It takes work to believe the Bible, because revelation from the Spirit of God will always sound foolish to the natural man. Overcoming this is sometimes is difficult, and sometimes on this forum seems dangerous. Like the Apostle Paul he tells to walk according to the level we are at, if we are wrong on some points God will reveal this to you.

Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.
Php 3:16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

Scooby_Snacks
Sep 8th 2013, 02:17 PM
Like one other posted stated, we are all at different levels of understanding. Our spiritual walk with the Lord is based on our understanding (Wisdom) of scriptures. Every body starts out looking through a glass darkly. Some see more clearly that others. Love always wants to share what it has, so others can enjoy it to. Obviously if you don't understand something in the Bible, and someone else does, there will a time of weighing weather or not it is true to you. But this can only be discerned by the anointing that dwells in each of us. It is a time of "work". It takes work to believe the Bible, because revelation from the Spirit of God will always sound foolish to the natural man. Overcoming this is sometimes is difficult, and sometimes on this forum seems dangerous. Like the Apostle Paul he tells to walk according to the level we are at, if we are wrong on some points God will reveal this to you.

Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.
Php 3:16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

Im not sure I agree with you Curtis on this point:

If a person is born again, they DO have spiritual insight to Gods Word.
Even the youngest in the faith has some of the most profound things to say coming from a pure, un-muddy by different teachings heart-
God's way of ever reminding for the tried and true longstanding believers! I love babies in Christ. :)

If there is something that sounds foolish to me, being born again, Why could it not be spiritual discernment at work seeing it's foolishness, rather than having to "work" or push understanding into place by means of the flesh?

Curtis
Sep 8th 2013, 02:42 PM
Im not sure I agree with you Curtis on this point:

If a person is born again, they DO have spiritual insight to Gods Word.
Even the youngest in the faith has some of the most profound things to say coming from a pure, un-muddy by different teachings heart-
God's way of ever reminding for the tried and true longstanding believers! I love babies in Christ. :)

If there is something that sounds foolish to me, being born again, Why could it not be spiritual discernment at work seeing it's foolishness, rather than having to "work" or push understanding into place by means of the flesh?

It all depends on what you are using as the standard in judging something weather is right or wrong. If it is your mind you are using to determine truth or error then you will get it wrong.
The human mind is the easiest thing to deceive. Christ (anointing) can not be deceived it knows all things. We are to trust in the Lord with all our hearts, and lean not upon our own understanding.
This is part of overcoming the flesh. The flesh never gives up, it wants to control everything.

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh.
2Co 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.
2Co 10:5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,

Nick
Sep 8th 2013, 03:51 PM
I was thinking something similar Nick.
A person can build their life on appearances so that no one (even themselves?) will know just how far away from God their heart is.
People give too much credit to appearances-- rather than what comes from the heart.
Now if the inside is clean, the outside will be made clean. Sometimes this outer appearance takes time to translate from the inside.
The outside being clean does not automatically denote the inside being clean.

Galatians 5:22-23.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Here's a test: Observe a person with these character traits, and THEN ask them what their theology is and what doctrine they observe.

That's the point I've been getting at. We can all fake Gal 5:22-23. I know I have before when I was seeking the approval of others and I still catch myself doing it today if I'm honest with myself. If I'm steadfastly opposed to someone else's doctrine that disagrees with mine am I exhibiting Gal 5:22-23 or am I hiding behind 2 Tim 3:16, which is really a reference to the OT than it is the NT? Am I trying to help the person "see the light" or am I set out to wrong him? There is a fine line between the two, the latter coming from pride and the former coming from love and humility.

Scooby_Snacks
Sep 8th 2013, 04:01 PM
It all depends on what you are using as the standard in judging something weather is right or wrong. If it is your mind you are using to determine truth or error then you will get it wrong.
The human mind is the easiest thing to deceive. Christ (anointing) can not be deceived it knows all things. We are to trust in the Lord with all our hearts, and lean not upon our own understanding.
This is part of overcoming the flesh. The flesh never gives up, it wants to control everything.

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh.
2Co 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.
2Co 10:5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,

By the manifestation of the discernment of spirits 1 Corinthians 12:9 A gift of the Spirit from God, developed over time.

Jade99
Sep 8th 2013, 06:51 PM
If you don't agree with 100% of a doctrine or a certain theology does that make it all false teaching? For example, there are certain tenets of the reformed theology I believe and other aspects that I'm not so sure. I don't see why that would make the entire doctrine false but some believe that.

What makes a doctrine false is when it goes against the word of God. Anytime scriptures are twisted for man's own perceptions, that's the creating a false doctrine. Like saying that one can lose their salvation, that's a false doctrine, because how can God put in his spirit into believers, if they can lose their salvation? A lot of people make up stuff and twist scripture, so that it sounds great to them, so it takes away from what the scripture said, the very warning that the end of Revelation was clear about.

Slug1
Sep 8th 2013, 08:50 PM
That's the point I've been getting at. We can all fake Gal 5:22-23. I agree and disagree with you on this Nick. While life is good to go, this fruit can be faked (this I DO agree with) but even then, discerning Christians will see or sense the fake actions and discern the false fruit. The Holy Spirit WILL let them know. Another reason why I don't agree, while these example of fruit of the Holy Spirit can be faked while life is good to go, they are not easily faked when the fakER is put into a storm and/or trial. The REAL character emerges when a person is placed in the pressure cooker and causes the faults and impurities to be pressed out and they rise to the surface. However, when a person is TRUE in the bearing of such fruit... this same fruit CONTINUES to be manifest even in the WORSE of storms/trials.

Ever meet a Christian who lost their job, car... house over the last 6 months and radiate the JOY of Christ upon others, speaks of faith as one who hasn't lost anything, worships without ceasing, and freely discusses with others about the trial they are in and how God is so close to them during the worse times?

Fake is discernible and those walking in the spirit will discern a faker. The faker may never know because because God allowed the discernment for a purpose and it is usually to intercede for the faker. You see, scripture tells us that God, HATES a liar and a person who fakes things, is lying. Lying is listed in scriptures as an action that prevents people from entering heaven, based on the teaching(s) of the Bible. So, those who are lying and faking it... when a person in church discerns this lying and faking from someone, they are most likely going to go into prayer for that person because those who walk in the Spirit KNOW reasons for God allowing such discernment and in my personal experience, it is to intercede for such a person so that person will listen to the Holy Spirit for themselves and be CONVICTED of their sin of lying (faking).

You speak of faking (lying) about the fruits of the Spirit... while lying immediately killed Ananias and Sapphire, lying will kill any who do it and at the end of the race when they are judged as liars and as the Bible states... they don't get into heaven... who were they really faking out the whole time?

Thus is the deception of the enemy upon such a person and making them believe their faking is not discerned by other Christians who move in the Spirit.

Nick
Sep 8th 2013, 09:44 PM
I agree and disagree with you on this Nick. While life is good to go, this fruit can be faked (this I DO agree with) but even then, discerning Christians will see or sense the fake actions and discern the false fruit. The Holy Spirit WILL let them know. Another reason why I don't agree, while these example of fruit of the Holy Spirit can be faked while life is good to go, they are not easily faked when the fakER is put into a storm and/or trial. The REAL character emerges when a person is placed in the pressure cooker and causes the faults and impurities to be pressed out and they rise to the surface. However, when a person is TRUE in the bearing of such fruit... this same fruit CONTINUES to be manifest even in the WORSE of storms/trials.

Ever meet a Christian who lost their job, car... house over the last 6 months and radiate the JOY of Christ upon others, speaks of faith as one who hasn't lost anything, worships without ceasing, and freely discusses with others about the trial they are in and how God is so close to them during the worse times?

Fake is discernible and those walking in the spirit will discern a faker. The faker may never know because because God allowed the discernment for a purpose and it is usually to intercede for the faker. You see, scripture tells us that God, HATES a liar and a person who fakes things, is lying. Lying is listed in scriptures as an action that prevents people from entering heaven, based on the teaching(s) of the Bible. So, those who are lying and faking it... when a person in church discerns this lying and faking from someone, they are most likely going to go into prayer for that person because those who walk in the Spirit KNOW reasons for God allowing such discernment and in my personal experience, it is to intercede for such a person so that person will listen to the Holy Spirit for themselves and be CONVICTED of their sin of lying (faking).

You speak of faking (lying) about the fruits of the Spirit... while lying immediately killed Ananias and Sapphire, lying will kill any who do it and at the end of the race when they are judged as liars and as the Bible states... they don't get into heaven... who were they really faking out the whole time?

Thus is the deception of the enemy upon such a person and making them believe their faking is not discerned by other Christians who move in the Spirit.

Lying may have immediately killed Ananias and Sapphire for the all the same reasons people lie today. However, lying doesn't result in such consequences. People not are dropping dead for lying to the Spirit. In our society, some people are so dependent on the approval of others that they will take a 30 week counseling class for 3hrs per week just for the prestige of being known on campus as a church counselor. They bear no fruit other than a name badge that says they do.

Unless you're intimately involved in the believer's life this type of "faking" can go unnoticed for a very long time not matter how discerning one thinks they are. And then when the trials comes the faking just continues, because again, it's more about the approval of men than it is glorifying God. I have been guilty of this, and I know for a fact I'm not alone. Then again, maybe faking it until you make it has some merit. Perhaps it's important to go through the motions of Christian living until it becomes routine and more natural. Like anything, practice strengthens the spiritual muscle just like exercise.

Diggindeeper
Sep 8th 2013, 10:18 PM
I think Timothy is a good example to see this, Nick. Here are 2 scripture on what I mean:

1 Timothy 1:5
Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

2 Timothy 1:5
When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

Unfeigned means not pretended! There are those who deceive their own selves. But that's really the only one they can fool. Those who are real, unpretended, can see through this. Other people might not see the pretense. But the one 'pretending' knows what he's doing. But thinks he's getting away with it.

This though, is not 'false doctrine'. False doctrine goes against scripture or twists it to fit what they want it to say. Or they twist it by plucking out verses to build a 'doctrine' on.

I just had an Article put on here and its about one such group that totally changes the meaning of certain scriptures to fit their 'cult' indoctrination'. It is literally a 'cult' and it is dangerous because people can be brought into it, thinking they are getting into just another 'Christian' group! Much of what they teach is Biblically based. That is the most dangerous kind of cult, in my opinion. Because they can 'look' and 'talk' so Christian like!

Just having a different view may not spell 'cult', but one needs to know sound doctrine from unsound doctrine, and for most people, that's very difficult to know the difference.

Slug1
Sep 8th 2013, 10:34 PM
Lying may have immediately killed Ananias and Sapphire for the all the same reasons people lie today. However, lying doesn't result in such consequences. People not are dropping dead for lying to the Spirit. In our society, some people are so dependent on the approval of others that they will take a 30 week counseling class for 3hrs per week just for the prestige of being known on campus as a church counselor. They bear no fruit other than a name badge that says they do.

Unless you're intimately involved in the believer's life this type of "faking" can go unnoticed for a very long time not matter how discerning one thinks they are. And then when the trials comes the faking just continues, because again, it's more about the approval of men than it is glorifying God. I have been guilty of this, and I know for a fact I'm not alone. Then again, maybe faking it until you make it has some merit. Perhaps it's important to go through the motions of Christian living until it becomes routine and more natural. Like anything, practice strengthens the spiritual muscle just like exercise.To reply in relation to the topic: I look at it this way... false doctrine turns people into false Christians.

Now, to reply to this specific post you made:

Faking and going through the motions don't strengthen anything that is spiritual or of God. All it does is put the mask on tighter and tighter and it's hard to take off and expose oneself for who one really is. Cept, when a person DOES take the mask of, they begin to be honest and the healing and true changing, strengthening and maturing can begin.

Back to what you are saying concerning Christians faking it to be accepted or found worthy, all this means is that there is an underlying problem that is deep within them. I am a counselor and reading your words spells out a lot. Nick, going through the motions is what the "devil" wants any Christian to do and the main reason is, going through the motions produces NOTHING of God and what a faker may think is fruit of the Spirit... really ISN'T.

Practicing faking and going through the motions does not strengthen any spiritual muscle and truth be told, only pushes a person away from God. Honestly, humbleness and surrender to God draws a person in close and discipleship will assist in the strengthening of a brother or sister in Christ.

Nick
Sep 9th 2013, 03:09 AM
To reply in relation to the topic: I look at it this way... false doctrine turns people into false Christians.

Now, to reply to this specific post you made:

Faking and going through the motions don't strengthen anything that is spiritual or of God. All it does is put the mask on tighter and tighter and it's hard to take off and expose oneself for who one really is. Cept, when a person DOES take the mask of, they begin to be honest and the healing and true changing, strengthening and maturing can begin.

Back to what you are saying concerning Christians faking it to be accepted or found worthy, all this means is that there is an underlying problem that is deep within them. I am a counselor and reading your words spells out a lot. Nick, going through the motions is what the "devil" wants any Christian to do and the main reason is, going through the motions produces NOTHING of God and what a faker may think is fruit of the Spirit... really ISN'T.

Practicing faking and going through the motions does not strengthen any spiritual muscle and truth be told, only pushes a person away from God. Honestly, humbleness and surrender to God draws a person in close and discipleship will assist in the strengthening of a brother or sister in Christ.

Who determines whether it's false, you? There are passages within the Bible can be interpreted many different ways. Do the Protestants agree with the Catholics? No. That's how the movement started. Most Christians believe in a triune God but might not all believe in the Trinity. And going through the motions has worked for many people. They may have went in with the wrong motive and ended up with the right one along the way. There is no hard and fast rule to that. And we're all phony, hypocrites and liars to a degree.

Slug1
Sep 9th 2013, 03:31 AM
Who determines whether it's false, you? I did not say anything about myself... I stated that the Holy Spirit will allow discernment.


There are passages within the Bible can be interpreted many different ways. Is there? I will agree that different doctrine followers will have different interpretations of verses because each different doctrine will bend the meaning to fit their doctrine.

Can you give me an example of a scripture that can be interpreted in different ways?


Do the Protestants agree with the Catholics? No. That's how the movement started. Which one follows scripture and which one follows a religion?


Most Christians believe in a triune God but might not all believe in the Trinity. Is this your opinion? Or is this based on something?


And going through the motions has worked for many people. Has it? Most I know who were going through the motions reached a point they had enough and sought help.

I'm one.


They may have went in with the wrong motive and ended up with the right one along the way. There is no hard and fast rule to that. I can agree.


And we're all phony, hypocrites and liars to a degree.I definitely agree.

This is why I've been so open about my testimony and I stand transparent... when I hurt or struggling, I am not shamed by reaching out to my church, even from my position and asking for prayer and help. Struggles and hurt brings out the love that is in all in the congregation... it is not uncommon for people to come to the altar during service and ball their guts out and they are ministered to by the ministers, elders, pastors, etc.

Two weeks ago, I was struggling and one of the associate pastors were preaching that Sunday. As the altar call was about to end and I was "about" to ask for prayer myself after I was done praying for a person, the pastor who gave the message pointed at me and waved me over to him. He told me what God put upon his spirit and it was exactly that I'm dealing with... he called out specific people who the Lord prompted him to also pray over me and for the next 20 minutes, they prayed over me. When the ministering prayer was completed, not one person had budged because when the Holy Spirit is working, the church supports and even though not all were called forward to pray, hands were held out toward those at the altar who were praying over me which laying on of hands and they were also praying and interceding in support of what God was doing.

When a person isn't phony, or a hypocrite, or a liar intentionally and they are honest, open, in surrender to God... MIGHTY work and MIGHTY moves of the Holy Spirit happen and healing is done.

Nick
Sep 10th 2013, 04:16 AM
Can you give me an example of a scripture that can be interpreted in different ways?

There are many that have multiple interpretations. Rom 8:28-30 tops the list for sure. That aside one less obvious is I Cor 1:10 "I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment."

Are we listening to Paul or are we more divided than united on our differing viewpoints, theologies, and doctrines? Paul is emphasizing the unity of doctrine in the local assembly of believers. Does that exist today? Nope, not even close and we are ALL guilty of this.

Curtis
Sep 10th 2013, 04:32 AM
Man sticking his fingers into places they should not be. Flesh attempting to understand spiritual things.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?



Does not this sound like the Church today?

Slug1
Sep 10th 2013, 12:54 PM
There are many that have multiple interpretations. Rom 8:28-30 tops the list for sure. That aside one less obvious is I Cor 1:10 "I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment."

Are we listening to Paul or are we more divided than united on our differing viewpoints, theologies, and doctrines? Paul is emphasizing the unity of doctrine in the local assembly of believers. Does that exist today? Nope, not even close and we are ALL guilty of this.OK... what you explained for the 1 Cor 1:10, doesn't mean the verse is interpreted in different ways. It means groups cannot be obeident to the verse... they all know what it means, they just choose to follow their doctrine instead.

I will look at the other verse later... how is the Romans verse interpreted in different ways?

Can you raise a verse that when brought forth through the context of the scriptures, has different meanings? I know there are a TON of scriptures that are exhorted differently due to a churches "doctrine" and HOW THEY want the verse to have meaning how they will follow the verse in accordance OF their personal doctrine of their church/denomination/religion.

I want to look at verses that have diffrent meanings based on the Bible and the context of the Bible.

Nick... look, this is a trick question, OK...

Do you see what I'm getting at? Scripture has ONLY one meaning, but people choose not to accept the meaning but do chose to follow church doctrine(s) instead.

So you want to know what makes a false doctrine... when ANY portion (even 1%) of the doctrine fails to align with the context of the Bible... than the ENTIRE doctrine is a false doctrine.

There ARE NO multiple meaning(s) of any verses. There can be a deeper meaning for an individual when they read a scripture but this is a Rhema of the Word of God, not the Logos of the Word of God when the Holy Spirit quickens a specific scripture into the spirit of an individual and the scripture tears down a stronghold they may have, or fully answer a question they have. This does not mean the verse has a different meaning, all this means is that the verse has been made personal into the spirit of the individual as God "SPEAKS" to them through His Word.

Boo
Sep 11th 2013, 09:19 AM
It is interesting, and maybe not really funny, that when someone holds a doctrine to be true and you don't agree; you are the one who is accused of not understanding. It is very seldom the person with the pet doctrine who admits error.

Perhaps is we all went back to actually reading and comparing all of the scriptures together, we'd get a different understanding. That doesn't happen, though. Many doctrines are launch off of only one or two incomplete references. They have been taught for so long that people just cannot accept that there may be error in them.

Scooby_Snacks
Sep 11th 2013, 09:28 AM
I did not say anything about myself... I stated that the Holy Spirit will allow discernment.

Is there? I will agree that different doctrine followers will have different interpretations of verses because each different doctrine will bend the meaning to fit their doctrine.

Can you give me an example of a scripture that can be interpreted in different ways?

Which one follows scripture and which one follows a religion?

Is this your opinion? Or is this based on something?

Has it? Most I know who were going through the motions reached a point they had enough and sought help.

I'm one.

I can agree.

I definitely agree.

This is why I've been so open about my testimony and I stand transparent... when I hurt or struggling, I am not shamed by reaching out to my church, even from my position and asking for prayer and help. Struggles and hurt brings out the love that is in all in the congregation... it is not uncommon for people to come to the altar during service and ball their guts out and they are ministered to by the ministers, elders, pastors, etc.

Two weeks ago, I was struggling and one of the associate pastors were preaching that Sunday. As the altar call was about to end and I was "about" to ask for prayer myself after I was done praying for a person, the pastor who gave the message pointed at me and waved me over to him. He told me what God put upon his spirit and it was exactly that I'm dealing with... he called out specific people who the Lord prompted him to also pray over me and for the next 20 minutes, they prayed over me. When the ministering prayer was completed, not one person had budged because when the Holy Spirit is working, the church supports and even though not all were called forward to pray, hands were held out toward those at the altar who were praying over me which laying on of hands and they were also praying and interceding in support of what God was doing.

When a person isn't phony, or a hypocrite, or a liar intentionally and they are honest, open, in surrender to God... MIGHTY work and MIGHTY moves of the Holy Spirit happen and healing is done.

Reminds me of that dream..but anyway, carry on.

Slug1
Sep 11th 2013, 12:22 PM
Reminds me of that dream..but anyway, carry on.Which one? :hmm:

episkopos
Sep 11th 2013, 12:54 PM
How many doctrines are just cop outs and excuses to not have to enter the race of faith...yet promise the same reward to a slacker as a true runner? These doctrines short-circuit the zeal for the Lord and His kingdom that should be bubbling out of a true athlete for God.

Amos_with_goats
Sep 11th 2013, 03:17 PM
How many doctrines are just cop outs and excuses to not have to enter the race of faith...yet promise the same reward to a slacker as a true runner? These doctrines short-circuit the zeal for the Lord and His kingdom that should be bubbling out of a true athlete for God.

I think you are on to something here. Whatever the politics of adhearance to various doctrinal camps are, the real damage comes in where we allow excuses for our sloth.

I LOVED the feeling that I might be caught unaware and whisked away from responsibility to witness, I have been attracted to the concept that no one is going to come to Christ unless they are destined to... And that I need not concern myself with if. Many doctrines of men placate the believer, and leave us content to be slothful.... My flesh loves these doctrines, but the truth is that we are all called to witness... And that our race is not run until we are present with The Lord.

Blessings,

Nick
Sep 11th 2013, 03:37 PM
How many doctrines are just cop outs and excuses to not have to enter the race of faith...yet promise the same reward to a slacker as a true runner? These doctrines short-circuit the zeal for the Lord and His kingdom that should be bubbling out of a true athlete for God.

Makes sense to me.


How many doctrines are just cop outs and excuses to not have to enter the race of faith...yet promise the same reward to a slacker as a true runner? These doctrines short-circuit the zeal for the Lord and His kingdom that should be bubbling out of a true athlete for God.

Makes sense to me.

Scooby_Snacks
Sep 11th 2013, 03:59 PM
How many doctrines are just cop outs and excuses to not have to enter the race of faith...yet promise the same reward to a slacker as a true runner? These doctrines short-circuit the zeal for the Lord and His kingdom that should be bubbling out of a true athlete for God.

Perhaps if there are doctrines of this manner, they would be clearly defined.

fewarechosen
Sep 11th 2013, 04:08 PM
I view it much as math, the truth decides what is true not man at all, it doesnt matter what people believe or a majority of people or anything, only what is true.

long before anyone understood e=mc2 it was true that e=mc2

if someone says 2+2 = 3 its false, doesnt matter the reason, if they were ignorant of it or if they lied or any other reason, false is false, everyone in world could shout 2=+2=3 and they would all be wrong so has nothing to do with who believes it only what is true. God decides what is true.

so if any understanding/explination of doctrine is untrue, it is false doctrine.

episkopos
Sep 11th 2013, 04:17 PM
Perhaps if there are doctrines of this manner, they would be clearly defined.

That's just it. Our flesh likes these doctrines. So most people don't look closer to see what is actually being edified (built up) by these doctrines. Chances are..if it sounds too easy...then it is!

Scooby_Snacks
Sep 11th 2013, 04:34 PM
That's just it. Our flesh likes these doctrines. So most people don't look closer to see what is actually being edified (built up) by these doctrines. Chances are..if it sounds too easy...then it is!

If you say you cannot say just say so. :)




I LOVED the feeling that I might be caught unaware and whisked away from responsibility to witness, I have been attracted to the concept that no one is going to come to Christ unless they are destined to... And that I need not concern myself with if. Many doctrines of men placate the believer, and leave us content to be slothful.... My flesh loves these doctrines, but the truth is that we are all called to witness... And that our race is not run until we are present with The Lord.

Blessings,

When I read this I understood what you were saying Amos, and for whatever reason, a second thought came to mind.

Hope you don't mind me taking a little part of your thought. :)

To be whisked away to minister to others, when that is a distraction to letting God work within oneself.
Is it not an easier fix and more enjoyable to "help" others clean up their yard, all the while avoiding ones own to ruin.

Slug1
Sep 11th 2013, 05:37 PM
To be whisked away to minister to others, when that is a distraction to letting God work within oneself.
Is it not an easier fix and more enjoyable to "help" others clean up their yard, all the while avoiding ones own to ruin.If I dont' have the reports crossed, I once read that David Wilkerson was set down my God for about 2 years from his ministry due to what you are raising. He was putting the church and all the ministry first. God set him down to reestablish a personal relationship between them and once God was number ONE again, David resumed ministry work until his passing.

Scooby_Snacks
Sep 12th 2013, 12:23 AM
If I dont' have the reports crossed, I once read that David Wilkerson was set down my God for about 2 years from his ministry due to what you are raising. He was putting the church and all the ministry first. God set him down to reestablish a personal relationship between them and once God was number ONE again, David resumed ministry work until his passing.

I don't think it is unusual at all.

That's why I think testimony as you share is important Slug1.
Once a person is in leadership of a ministry, it doesn't mean that they no longer have any upkeep needs or time needed for themselves to rest and regenerate from giving of themselves. No one can serve if their cup runs empty.

Nick
Sep 12th 2013, 02:07 AM
That's just it. Our flesh likes these doctrines. So most people don't look closer to see what is actually being edified (built up) by these doctrines. Chances are..if it sounds too easy...then it is!

I take it you're not a proponent of the Romans Road approach?

CaptKirk1
Sep 12th 2013, 06:04 PM
If you don't agree with 100% of a doctrine or a certain theology does that make it all false teaching? For example, there are certain tenets of the reformed theology I believe and other aspects that I'm not so sure. I don't see why that would make the entire doctrine false but some believe that.

The important thing to remember is that there is theology/doctrines that historically the church proper have declared are essentials to the faith, and have recognized as being orthodox.

They would include
The Bible as inspired word/revelation of God
Trinity
Salvation by grace alone/faith alone
Second Coming
Jesus as ONLY way to have salvation
water baptism

And others...

Within those orthodox doctrines, there is differences of opinions, like second coming has A Mil/pre/post etc
Baptism has believers only, infant
There are calvinists/arminians etc

ALL of that is allowed, but CANNOT have positions such as NO second coming, Bible just partially true and accurate, jesus not God, MUST be batized etc, as those positions are outside what is seen as orthodox and correct doctrine!

And about reformed theology...


I also see s distinction on what they hold to, as believe with them on doctrines of grace, on theircalvinistic approach to salvation, but disagree with their Covenant theology other views, being Dispy myself in those other areas...

Hope this helps!

episkopos
Sep 12th 2013, 07:53 PM
I take it you're not a proponent of the Romans Road approach?

I've heard of the Damascus road experience...even rocky road ice cream....but Roman Road?

Berean11
Sep 12th 2013, 09:57 PM
I've heard of the Damascus road experience...even rocky road ice cream....but Roman Road?


Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Rom 10:18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."
Rom 10:19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, "I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry."
Rom 10:20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me."
Rom 10:21 But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

Nick
Sep 13th 2013, 03:55 AM
Doesn't it look more like this?

Romans 3:23 - "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 5:8 - "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Romans 10:9-10 - "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."
Romans 10:13 - for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Boo
Sep 14th 2013, 09:41 AM
The important thing to remember is that there is theology/doctrines that historically the church proper have declared are essentials to the faith, and have recognized as being orthodox.

They would include
The Bible as inspired word/revelation of God
Trinity
Salvation by grace alone/faith alone
Second Coming
Jesus as ONLY way to have salvation
water baptism

And others...

Within those orthodox doctrines, there is differences of opinions, like second coming has A Mil/pre/post etc
Baptism has believers only, infant
There are calvinists/arminians etc

ALL of that is allowed, but CANNOT have positions such as NO second coming, Bible just partially true and accurate, jesus not God, MUST be batized etc, as those positions are outside what is seen as orthodox and correct doctrine!

And about reformed theology...


I also see s distinction on what they hold to, as believe with them on doctrines of grace, on theircalvinistic approach to salvation, but disagree with their Covenant theology other views, being Dispy myself in those other areas...

Hope this helps!

When you say "the church proper," whom are you speaking of?

When you say "orthodox," which one are you speaking of?

Boo
Sep 14th 2013, 09:56 AM
Perhaps if there are doctrines of this manner, they would be clearly defined.

They are clearly defined.

Then, man gets into the picture and changes them for publication. Another man takes them and puts them in a book and preaches them.

Then we debate them endlessly using the texts that the man who changed them used.

If anyone brings us the clear definitions that are in existence, that is when the fight starts.

Then again, some things that are apparently unclear were probably never meant by God to be written as doctrine. Perhaps some of the ideas that we wrestle with were never meant to be cornerstones for our faith. Perhaps Calvinism was never meant by God to be a doctrine? Perhaps Arminianism was not either?

I'm sure that he idea of OSAS have never helped anyone become a better follower of Jesus. Those against OSAS have never caused anyone to fall away either. The argument has no purpose if we'd just follow scriptures.

Has anyone ever considered that churches teach doctrine so that people don't have to read the scriptures? Perhaps they exist in order to be "Cliff Notes" for the congregation. Maybe they were established in order to tell the world what "kind of people" are allowed to come to this church?

Paul had no New Testament, nor did Peter, John, James, etc, etc. When they spoke God's truth, it was called their "doctrine." Now, doctrine is different. We have the New Testament, but we use doctrine to replace it with man's interpretation.

I have a good friend - a man who helped me find Jesus - who has a "bible study" with his kids. He is not using a bible, though. He is using a book of doctrines. I suggested that he go back to using the bible.

sheina maidle
Sep 14th 2013, 10:14 AM
A false doctrine is a doctrine which is contrary to that taught in the Word of God.

The Lord Jesus Christ said that a believer can know when a doctrine is false or when it is sound doctrine. (John 7:17)

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

If one is open to the truth and willing to obey God, the Lord will give that person wisdom so that he will know sound doctrine from false doctrine.

Boo
Sep 14th 2013, 10:18 AM
A false doctrine is a doctrine which is contrary to that taught in the Word of God.

The Lord Jesus Christ said that a believer can know when a doctrine is false or when it is sound doctrine. (John 7:17)


John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.


If one is open to the truth and willing to obey God, the Lord will give that person wisdom so that he will know sound doctrine from false doctrine.

IF ONE IS OPEN TO THE TRUTH AND WILLING TO OBEY GOD.........

Many are not open to the truth.

Nick
Sep 14th 2013, 10:02 PM
A false doctrine is a doctrine which is contrary to that taught in the Word of God. If one is open to the truth and willing to obey God, the Lord will give that person wisdom so that he will know sound doctrine from false doctrine.

And who determines that? That has been the crux of the thread. Man interprets what is and what is not the inspired Word of God. And we have many interpretations because man can't agree. The overarching message here is division that is caused over one's interpretation is certainly not God's will for us, but that is exactly what we all do with our desire to be right. Who is to say the wisdom given to you is any different than the wisdom given to me? That's where pride and arrogance bolster egotism and the Word of God is relegated to something we debate to prove our point or get others to see our view as the only right one.

sheina maidle
Sep 15th 2013, 12:18 AM
And who determines that? That has been the crux of the thread. Man interprets what is and what is not the inspired Word of God. And we have many interpretations because man can't agree. The overarching message here is division that is caused over one's interpretation is certainly not God's will for us, but that is exactly what we all do with our desire to be right. Who is to say the wisdom given to you is any different than the wisdom given to me? That's where pride and arrogance bolster egotism and the Word of God is relegated to something we debate to prove our point or get others to see our view as the only right one.
The Holy Spirit determines what is sound doctrine. Aren't born again Christians indwelt with the Holy Spirit? What about Paul's admonition in 2 Timothy 2:15:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Do we all just sit in church pews on Sunday morning and never question the teaching of the preacher? Just because he is a preacher, does not make him "correct" in what he preaches. We need to be as those "Bereans" in Acts 17:11 and "search the Scriptures". God does give His children spiritual discernment....and that discernment comes as we "study and search the Scriptures".

Pride and egotism come when we don't submit to the leading of the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:9-14 describes God's method of revealing truth to man. The Bible is a spiritual book and cannot be understood by man's own intellect and knowledge.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Boo
Sep 15th 2013, 10:43 AM
Here is a bit of food for thought: We read the words of Jesus as the Apostles. They taught what they had be taught. Jesus gave us knowledge that he received from His Father. The Apostles gave us knowledge that they had received from Jesus as the Holy Spirit. Those teachings came to us as their doctrines.

We have their teachings that came from God. We also have their histories, their preferences, and a record of the instructions that they gave to others. It is written down for us.

How is it, now that we know what they told others, that we find that we must devise doctrines that do no coincide with what God told them? We create different doctrines than what these people told us that God told them! Jesus, we take as an authority because He was also God, yet even He said:

John 7:14-18(NASB)

But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and began to teach. The Jews then were astonished, saying, “How has this man become learned, having never been educated?”

So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself. He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him."

A doctrine can be from God and a doctrine can be from man.

Anytime our doctrine does not match that which came from God, guess whose it is?

If God didn't give it to us, it certainly is not worth arguing about.

I read the scriptures and ascertain which statements match what God has said and which statements come from the man. I accept only those that I know are from God, regardless of any sound reasoning that the man may have had. God's statements apply to the universe for eternity until God changes them. Man's statements apply to his time and his place.

There is a difference.

Scooby_Snacks
Sep 15th 2013, 11:08 PM
They are clearly defined.

Pardon me Boo, do you know why I said what I quoted?

I was asking for alluded to teachings to be defined by someone else, but they were not.

Peace to you...just confused me why my quote was used here.

chad
Sep 16th 2013, 06:12 AM
Agreed. The early church had to deal with False teachers and apostles. Paul writes to the Corinthians, regarding the gospel and false apostles.

2 Corinthians 11New International Version (NIV)

Paul and the False Apostles11 I hope you will put up with me in a little foolishness. Yes, please put up with me! 2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
5 I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.”[a (http://bibleforums.org/#fen-NIV-28995a)] 6 I may indeed be untrained as a speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way. 7 Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8 I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. 9 And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so. 10 As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do!
12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.





Here is a bit of food for thought: We read the words of Jesus as the Apostles. They taught what they had be taught. Jesus gave us knowledge that he received from His Father. The Apostles gave us knowledge that they had received from Jesus as the Holy Spirit. Those teachings came to us as their doctrines.

We have their teachings that came from God. We also have their histories, their preferences, and a record of the instructions that they gave to others. It is written down for us.

How is it, now that we know what they told others, that we find that we must devise doctrines that do no coincide with what God told them? We create different doctrines than what these people told us that God told them! Jesus, we take as an authority because He was also God, yet even He said:

John 7:14-18(NASB)


A doctrine can be from God and a doctrine can be from man.

Anytime our doctrine does not match that which came from God, guess whose it is?

If God didn't give it to us, it certainly is not worth arguing about.

I read the scriptures and ascertain which statements match what God has said and which statements come from the man. I accept only those that I know are from God, regardless of any sound reasoning that the man may have had. God's statements apply to the universe for eternity until God changes them. Man's statements apply to his time and his place.

There is a difference.