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Aviyah
Sep 12th 2013, 08:16 PM
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. (Ro. 5:12)

I hear many people say that there was no death period until Adam sinned.

Was not death a necessary part of nature even before sin? I don't mean that death was a part of human life, but in the animal and plant kingdoms, death is necessary for many species - for example, carnivores. If that's the case, what did God intend for many carnivorous mammals, reptiles, fish, and insects to eat without resulting in the death of another animal? Even plants must have died from omnivores - root vegetables such as carrot must be killed to be eaten. Plus, certain plants such as the tumbleweed rely on death to reproduce.

I think there is a misunderstanding when people think of the Fall. When Adam sinned, I do not believe the laws of nature were changed except for humans.

glad4mercy
Sep 12th 2013, 08:28 PM
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. (Ro. 5:12)

I hear many people say that there was no death period until Adam sinned.

Was not death a necessary part of nature even before sin? I don't mean that death was a part of human life, but in the animal and plant kingdoms, death is necessary for many species - for example, carnivores. If that's the case, what did God intend for many carnivorous mammals, reptiles, fish, and insects to eat without resulting in the death of another animal? Even plants must have died from omnivores - root vegetables such as carrot must be killed to be eaten. Plus, certain plants such as the tumbleweed rely on death to reproduce.

I think there is a misunderstanding when people think of the Fall. When Adam sinned, I do not believe the laws of nature were changed except for humans.




Can't argue with you about the vegetation point.

No mention of Carnivores before the fall. (see Genesis 1:30)

No mention of man eating meat until after the flood. (see Genesis 9:3)

I love meat!!

Probably the first animal deaths were the ones God used to clothe Adam and Eve. (typology of Christ's sacrifice?)

Not only did man fall, but the whole creation fell with him. (Romans 8:19-22)

Blessings

Old man
Sep 12th 2013, 08:35 PM
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. (Ro. 5:12)

I hear many people say that there was no death period until Adam sinned.

Was not death a necessary part of nature even before sin? I don't mean that death was a part of human life, but in the animal and plant kingdoms, death is necessary for many species - for example, carnivores. If that's the case, what did God intend for many carnivorous mammals, reptiles, fish, and insects to eat without resulting in the death of another animal? Even plants must have died from omnivores - root vegetables such as carrot must be killed to be eaten. Plus, certain plants such as the tumbleweed rely on death to reproduce.

I think there is a misunderstanding when people think of the Fall. When Adam sinned, I do not believe the laws of nature were changed except for humans.



There are many that believe that along with the curse and death God also made at that time adjustment in the digestive systems in animals to enable them to survive the changes to the environment.

Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;”

Prior to the fall man’s digestive system worked with fruits now it has to work with the plants of the field as well.

Prior to the curse the animals were all herbivores

Gen 1:30 “and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.”

So the change in the animals digestive system after the fall from all herbivores to herbivores, carnivores and omnivores is not inconceivable.

Aviyah
Sep 12th 2013, 08:37 PM
No mention of Carnivores before the fall. (see Genesis 1:30)

I wonder if this means all animals were herbivores until the Fall, or if God created the carnivores after the Fall (I think the first one). I still think though that this means death was necessary in at least plants.


No mention of man eating meat until after the flood. (see Genesis 9:3)

Yeah, I remember reading that before. It's what I cite when people ask why I don't eat a lot of meat :D


Not only did man fall, but the whole creation fell with him. (Romans 8:19-22)

Okay didn't know this part!

glad4mercy
Sep 12th 2013, 08:58 PM
There are many that believe that along with the curse and death God also made at that time adjustment in the digestive systems in animals to enable them to survive the changes to the environment.

Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;”

Prior to the fall man’s digestive system worked with fruits now it has to work with the plants of the field as well.

Prior to the curse the animals were all herbivores

Gen 1:30 “and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.”

So the change in the animals digestive system after the fall from all herbivores to herbivores, carnivores and omnivores is not inconceivable.

Great post, brother!!


There are many that believe that along with the curse and death God also made at that time adjustment in the digestive systems in animals to enable them to survive the changes to the environment.

Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;”

Prior to the fall man’s digestive system worked with fruits now it has to work with the plants of the field as well.

Prior to the curse the animals were all herbivores

Gen 1:30 “and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.”

So the change in the animals digestive system after the fall from all herbivores to herbivores, carnivores and omnivores is not inconceivable.

Great post, brother!!

teddyv
Sep 12th 2013, 09:01 PM
http://thecanadasite.com/images/oac/Dinosaur/dinalbertoskull.jpg

Those teeth are not for eating plants.

glad4mercy
Sep 12th 2013, 09:06 PM
I wonder if this means all animals were herbivores until the Fall, or if God created the carnivores after the Fall (I think the first one).

I think the animals were all herbivores until the fall as well. I agree with you.


Yeah, I remember reading that before. It's what I cite when people ask why I don't eat a lot of meat


I'm pretty much a ravening, meat eating carnivore, so we balance each other out. ;)


Okay didn't know this part!

Yes, not only did the Fall bring death it also brought disease, sickness, birth defects, and the cataclysms of nature as we know them to both man and beast.

When Christ returns, not only will we have new bodies, but there will be a new heavens and a new earth. I may be wrong, but I see some similarities between the resurrection of our bodies and the destruction of the present Kosmos followed by a new creation, where all things are new. We can only imagine how beautiful and awesome it will be. No more sin, death, disease, decay, war, famine, or any other thing caused by the Fall. Jesus said "Behold, I make all things new"

Aviyah
Sep 12th 2013, 09:07 PM
Those teeth are not for eating plants.

What about man-eating monster plants?? :eek:

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTgzMjQwNTk4NF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwOTMwODEzMQ@@._ V1._SX341_SY475_.jpg

teddyv
Sep 12th 2013, 09:10 PM
What about man-eating monster plants??

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTgzMjQwNTk4NF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwOTMwODEzMQ@@._ V1._SX341_SY475_.jpg

Not sure about those. Never saw the movie. Was it radiation? Certainly post-Flood. :)

glad4mercy
Sep 12th 2013, 09:18 PM
http://thecanadasite.com/images/oac/Dinosaur/dinalbertoskull.jpg

Those teeth are not for eating plants.

See post 3. I believe that things changed radically after the fall.

glad4mercy
Sep 12th 2013, 09:27 PM
Another thought regarding Teddyv's post...

We have an immune system, but yet there was no sickness or disease that we know of before the fall. Either the immune system developed later, or God made us with it (and Dinosaurs with sharp teeth), knowing as He did that the Fall was going to take place.

Old man
Sep 12th 2013, 09:43 PM
http://thecanadasite.com/images/oac/Dinosaur/dinalbertoskull.jpg

Those teeth are not for eating plants.

Physiological changes also took place at that time:

Gen 3:14 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life;”

The serpent was reduced to crawling on its belly where before it did not (otherwise why mention the crawling).

Gen 3:16 “To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

Prior to the fall childbirth would have been painless this indicates a change in physiology not just the chemical processes of a dietary change.

Many of the changes had to take place for survival in a (basically) new world and not as part of the curse. The resulting curse required that things change in order for God’s creation to operate with some degree of temporary success.

teddyv
Sep 12th 2013, 09:55 PM
Another thought regarding Teddyv's post...

We have an immune system, but yet there was no sickness or disease that we know of before the fall. Either the immune system developed later, or God made us with it (and Dinosaurs with sharp teeth), knowing as He did that the Fall was going to take place.
It really depends where you stand on origins.

Those dinosaurs lived and died so long before humans that it could be considered a poor example. That's where the Gapper's come in to try and square up these issues. (I don't hold to Gap Theory).

Noeb
Sep 12th 2013, 10:03 PM
Of course there was sickness and disease before the fall.

glad4mercy
Sep 12th 2013, 10:32 PM
Of course there was sickness and disease before the fall.

If you believe this, then you believe that sickness and disease is good, for He looked at all that He made and it was good.

If sickness and disease is so good, do you think that there will be sickness and disease in heaven?

What was the purpose of sickness and disease in the prefall Kosmos?

They that trust the Lord will not lack any good thing. Therefore, if sickness and disease is good, those who trust the Lord will not be lacking in sickness and disease. See what your assertion leads to when it is followed to it's conclusion?

Noeb
Sep 13th 2013, 01:04 AM
Well life cycle is throughout Genesis 1 and God said it was good. How do you disagree? The seed dies to bring forth life, you know? The fruit rots etc.... The earth and all things in it were created and/or made temporal and God said it is good. What's the problem? Did God create sickness and disease later? No. It was part of, inside, included, in the natural life cycle that he said was good, then he rested.

There's no need for sickness and disease in heaven but heaven is not our future so I don't know why you'd say this. The tree of life returns with Christ for righteous mortals to eat for the millennium.

Your last statement blows me away. Understand. Psalms 34:10. We don't lack because God can't, but because he won't, because he has good reason. It's more in line with what I've said than you.

BTW; nice to see you again!:)

fewarechosen
Sep 13th 2013, 04:03 AM
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. (Ro. 5:12)


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

this is one of those passages i see that are often used to support something the words do not

the first version was quoted from first poster the second one is kjv, i just included both since i use kjv, but they are both saying same thing, the two words below are "and so"

G2532
καί
kai
kahee
Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet.

G3779
οὕτω
houtō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

so what that scripture is saying is , as by one man sin entered and death by sin, in the same way does death come to all men, for all have sinned

that same way is sin, not some one time event that contaminated all other men, thats misreading the words, its saying in the same way adam died, by sinning, that will all die also, and even goes on to say because all have sinned and places the reason it happened to all of em.

so its letting you know all have sinned and thats why they died, same manner same way.

its speaking to the process through which we die being the same through all men, by sin, since we all sin we all die from that sin, its not speaking to some sort of spiritual infection that tainted everyone in that scripture at all


"therefor in this way"

"in same fashion"

"and death through poison, and in this way death came to all people, because all drank poison"

"in the same way death came to adam death comes to every man, through sin"

the above is the essence of the meaning in modern terms

that is the essence of what its saying in modern terms

Balabusha
Sep 13th 2013, 04:33 AM
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. (Ro. 5:12)

I hear many people say that there was no death period until Adam sinned.

Was not death a necessary part of nature even before sin? I don't mean that death was a part of human life, but in the animal and plant kingdoms, death is necessary for many species - for example, carnivores. If that's the case, what did God intend for many carnivorous mammals, reptiles, fish, and insects to eat without resulting in the death of another animal? Even plants must have died from omnivores - root vegetables such as carrot must be killed to be eaten. Plus, certain plants such as the tumbleweed rely on death to reproduce.

I think there is a misunderstanding when people think of the Fall. When Adam sinned, I do not believe the laws of nature were changed except for humans.




This is something to think of Aviyah, all sin entered the world thru one man-Adam,could have God being all knowing have created the earth with the foreknowledge of Adam's sin? Revelation states that Jesus's atonement was in effect to the beginning of creation.

ProDeo
Sep 13th 2013, 06:22 AM
Gen 3:21 - And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.

Seems to imply there was animal death before the Fall.

glad4mercy
Sep 13th 2013, 01:28 PM
Gen 3:21 - And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.

Seems to imply there was animal death before the Fall.

The passage you quoted happened after the fall


Gen 3:21 - And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.

Seems to imply there was animal death before the Fall.

The passage you quoted happened after the fall

glad4mercy
Sep 13th 2013, 01:32 PM
Well life cycle is throughout Genesis 1 and God said it was good. How do you disagree? The seed dies to bring forth life, you know? The fruit rots etc.... The earth and all things in it were created and/or made temporal and God said it is good. What's the problem? Did God create sickness and disease later? No. It was part of, inside, included, in the natural life cycle that he said was good, then he rested.

There's no need for sickness and disease in heaven but heaven is not our future so I don't know why you'd say this. The tree of life returns with Christ for righteous mortals to eat for the millennium.

Your last statement blows me away. Understand. Psalms 34:10. We don't lack because God can't, but because he won't, because he has good reason. It's more in line with what I've said than you.

BTW; nice to see you again!:)

Vegetation death is not the same as disease

When I mentioned the immune system and disease it was in reference to man. Do you hold that sickness and disease existed in man before the Fall?

The last comment was a little tongue in cheek


Well life cycle is throughout Genesis 1 and God said it was good. How do you disagree? The seed dies to bring forth life, you know? The fruit rots etc.... The earth and all things in it were created and/or made temporal and God said it is good. What's the problem? Did God create sickness and disease later? No. It was part of, inside, included, in the natural life cycle that he said was good, then he rested.

There's no need for sickness and disease in heaven but heaven is not our future so I don't know why you'd say this. The tree of life returns with Christ for righteous mortals to eat for the millennium.

Your last statement blows me away. Understand. Psalms 34:10. We don't lack because God can't, but because he won't, because he has good reason. It's more in line with what I've said than you.

BTW; nice to see you again!:)

Vegetation death is not the same as disease

When I mentioned the immune system and disease it was in reference to man. Do you hold that sickness and disease existed in man before the Fall?

The last comment was a little tongue in cheek

Good to chat with you again. GREETINGS BACK AT YOU

Noeb
Sep 13th 2013, 01:38 PM
The capability in mans constitution was the same both before and after the sin. Before, man had the three of life for healing.

glad4mercy
Sep 13th 2013, 02:05 PM
The capability in mans constitution was the same both before and after the sin. Before, man had the three of life for healing.

I do not see sickness, disease, or death in man or animal even hinted at prefall in the scriptures

Begetation death? Ok, yet as far as I know vegetation don't have souls, so it is a different category alti gether.


The capability in mans constitution was the same both before and after the sin. Before, man had the three of life for healing.

I do not see sickness, disease, or death in man or animal even hinted at prefall in the scriptures

Begetation death? Ok, yet as far as I know vegetation don't have souls, so it is a different category alti gether.

Noeb
Sep 13th 2013, 03:04 PM
The first man was natural and of the earth. How do you say he was made of earth and was not mortal? There was only one tree of life in the garden. How did animals far from the garden not die?

percho
Sep 13th 2013, 03:32 PM
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. (Ro. 5:12)

I hear many people say that there was no death period until Adam sinned.

Was not death a necessary part of nature even before sin? I don't mean that death was a part of human life, but in the animal and plant kingdoms, death is necessary for many species - for example, carnivores. If that's the case, what did God intend for many carnivorous mammals, reptiles, fish, and insects to eat without resulting in the death of another animal? Even plants must have died from omnivores - root vegetables such as carrot must be killed to be eaten. Plus, certain plants such as the tumbleweed rely on death to reproduce.

I think there is a misunderstanding when people think of the Fall. When Adam sinned, I do not believe the laws of nature were changed except for humans.



Did death exist before the fall of Adam? Good question.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:26
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:19,20
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev 13:8
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb. 2:14

Why was the first man Adam created in the image of God, created subject to death and corruption, except for the above stated concerning the last Adam, the lamb of God the Christ, known of Spirit the God his Father that he would die before anything else was created?

Did this death the power of which belonged with: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him; exist before man was created??????????

glad4mercy
Sep 13th 2013, 03:50 PM
The first man was natural and of the earth. How do you say he was made of earth and was not mortal? There was only one tree of life in the garden. How did animals far from the garden not die?

If man had reproduced and populated and filled the earth without falling, how could the men and women far far from the garden not die?

glad4mercy
Sep 13th 2013, 04:01 PM
Did death exist before the fall of Adam? Good question.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:26
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:19,20
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev 13:8
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb. 2:14

Why was the first man Adam created in the image of God, created subject to death and corruption, except for the above stated concerning the last Adam, the lamb of God the Christ, known of Spirit the God his Father that he would die before anything else was created?

Did this death the power of which belonged with: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him; exist before man was created??????????

a. God knew that man would fall.
b. Christ was foreordained in eternity to die for fallen man.
c. God's foreknowledge of sin does not make Him the author or causer of sin, nor does He tempt any man with evil.
d. God knows all things from beginning to end, all knowledge is present with Him.


Did death exist before the fall of Adam? Good question.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:26
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:19,20
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev 13:8
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb. 2:14

Why was the first man Adam created in the image of God, created subject to death and corruption, except for the above stated concerning the last Adam, the lamb of God the Christ, known of Spirit the God his Father that he would die before anything else was created?

Did this death the power of which belonged with: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him; exist before man was created??????????

a. God knew that man would fall.
b. Christ was foreordained in eternity to die for fallen man.
c. God's foreknowledge of sin does not make Him the author or causer of sin, nor does He tempt any man with evil.
d. God knows all things from beginning to end, all knowledge is present with Him.

Noeb
Sep 13th 2013, 04:21 PM
How will it happen in the millennium?

glad4mercy
Sep 13th 2013, 04:25 PM
How will it happen in the millennium?

You don't believe people will die in the Millenium?

a. Resurrected saints will not die because they will have their new bodies already.

b. Those who are still mortal and enter the Millenium are no different from us, they will still die because they still live in fallen bodies.

c. This is why the Great Rebellion of satan will be possible at the end of the Millenium, because while the earth will be renewed in some ways, man will basically have the same constitution, albeit a longer life span.

Noeb
Sep 13th 2013, 04:28 PM
Sure I do. The righteous can enter the city and access the tree of life.

glad4mercy
Sep 13th 2013, 04:31 PM
Sure I do. The righteous can enter the city and access the tree of life.

Your confusing Revelation 21-22, which is talking about eternity, with the Millenium.

In what Millenial passage is the tree of life mentioned?

Revelation 21-22 is not talking about the Millenium

Noeb
Sep 13th 2013, 04:37 PM
I'm not confusing anything, it's just your opinion. See Ezekiel 47:12.

Noeb
Sep 13th 2013, 04:50 PM
Tell me again what all this has to do with Adam being mortal?

glad4mercy
Sep 13th 2013, 04:55 PM
I'm not confusing anything, it's just your opinion. See Ezekiel 47:12.

Nice cross reference! :)

Yet there is no reference of the tree of life in Ez 47:12. Secondly, it cannot be talking about the same thing as Revelation 22 for in the Millenium there will be a temple and in Ezekiel 42-47 there is a temple, yet in Revelation chapters 21- 22, there is no temple. (Rev 21:22)

Also in Ezekiel 47 there is mention of a sea (Ezekiel 47:20), whereas in Revelation 21-22 there is no more sea. (Revelation 21:1)

glad4mercy
Sep 13th 2013, 05:24 PM
Tell me again what all this has to do with Adam being mortal?

You asked me how animals far from the tree, (before the fall) could keep from dying, and I asked you the same about people who would have eventually lived far from the tree, (even if man had not fallen).

You're the one who brought up "distance from the garden" and the the Millenium, so you should already know what this has to do with Adam, since you're the one who has been leading this dance. ;)

There is not one mention in scriptures of Adam being mortal pre fall.

Babies die, not only because of seperation from the tree of life, but because of the fallen condition Adam put us in.

There is not one mention of sickness or disease in man before the fall.

If you believe that the reference to the tree of life proves that Adam was mortal in his unfallen state, then the same would equally be true for those in eternity (Revelation 21-22) for the tree is there as well. The tree of life is present in New Jerusalem, just as it was in the garden. Therefore, by your logic, man will be mortal in New Jerusalem just as well as he was in the garden. It doesnt fly, it ammounts to the fact that your conclusion does not of necessity follow from your premises.

If in New Jerusalem we have our spiritual bodies, what need of the tree of life in New Jerusalem to keep us alive? Your conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premises.

In the resurrection, we put on immortality. Yet the tree of life is there for us, even in our immortality. Therefore, having access to and partaking of the tree of life does not mean that one is mortal for those who have been made immortal and incorruptible will have access to the tree of life as well, just as Adam did. Therefore, the assumption that Adam was mortal cannot be proven by referencing the tree of life.

Noeb
Sep 13th 2013, 06:52 PM
It says he was made of the earth in Genesis and 1Corinthians g4m.

glad4mercy
Sep 13th 2013, 07:02 PM
It says he was made of the earth in Genesis and 1Corinthians g4m.

Yes, and God did not say that Adam would return to the dirt from whence he was taken until after the Fall.

Genesis 3:19- In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

Death was part of the curse.

Also, remember this...

1 Corinthians 15: 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

Before sin, death had no sting, my friend.


If the sting of death is sin, then sin is the means whereby death slays us. Pretty clear language, IMO.

...and Christ has suceeded in removing the sting of death once again for us...

1 Corinthians 15: 55 “O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[i]


It says he was made of the earth in Genesis and 1Corinthians g4m.

Yes, and God did not say that Adam would return to the dirt from whence he was taken until after the Fall.

Genesis 3:19- In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

Death was part of the curse.

Also, remember this...

1 Corinthians 15: 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

Before sin, death had no sting, my friend.


If the sting of death is sin, then sin is the means whereby death slays us. Pretty clear language, IMO.

...and Christ has suceeded in removing the sting of death once again for us...

1 Corinthians 15: 55 “O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[i]

Noeb
Sep 13th 2013, 07:22 PM
Um...yeah! He had the tree of life!
When you are prepared to show how mortal man was not, let us know.

glad4mercy
Sep 13th 2013, 07:32 PM
Um...yeah! He had the tree of life!
When you are prepared to show how mortal man was not, let us know.

The sting of death is sin, not lack of the tree of life.


Does Jesus need to eat from the tree of life to stay alive? Of course not, and neither will we when we are resurrected. Yet the tree of life will be there for us. (Revelation 22:2) Evidence that eating the fruit of the tree of life does not necessarily mean mortality. We will have put on immortality, yet the tree of life will still be present with us in eternity...

When He appears, we will be like Him for we will see Him just as He is...If we need to eat the tree of life to stay alive in our glorified bodies, so does Christ. I don't need to say how absurd and blasphemous this thought would be.

The tree of life will be in heaven, but we will not be mortal/perishable, just as the tree of life was in Eden, yet Adam was not perishable, until the fall.

I don't need to prove that Adam was not mortal. You are the one that is saying that he was, so the burden of proof is on you. Remember, you're leading this dance. Where is the proof that Adam was mortal? Lay out exhibit A, B, C etc. and we will look at them one by one.

Why would the burden of proof lie with me. This whole thing began with your assertion that sickness and disease existed in the world of man before the Fall. This assertion cannot be supported by scripture. If you think it can, present the basis of your claim.

So when you're prepared to support your claim that Adam was mortal and subject to death before the Fall, let me know.;)

Now perhaps we should define our terms...how do you define "mortality"

If by mortality, you mean nothing more than possessing a physical material body, then I agree. But if you mean that Adam was perishable and subject to sickness, disease, and death before the Fall, you've got some proving to do.

Adam was a physical, composed of matter man, but that does not mean he was perishable and subject to disease before the Fall any more than the earth being composed of matter means that it was cursed before the Fall.

Human death is part of the curse...Before sin, there was no curse.

percho
Sep 13th 2013, 10:44 PM
Yes, and God did not say that Adam would return to the dirt from whence he was taken until after the Fall.

Genesis 3:19- In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

Death was part of the curse.

Also, remember this...

1 Corinthians 15: 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

Before sin, death had no sting, my friend.


If the sting of death is sin, then sin is the means whereby death slays us. Pretty clear language, IMO.

...and Christ has suceeded in removing the sting of death once again for us...

1 Corinthians 15: 55 “O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[i]



Yes, and God did not say that Adam would return to the dirt from whence he was taken until after the Fall.

Genesis 3:19- In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

Death was part of the curse.

Also, remember this...

1 Corinthians 15: 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

Before sin, death had no sting, my friend.


If the sting of death is sin, then sin is the means whereby death slays us. Pretty clear language, IMO.

...and Christ has suceeded in removing the sting of death once again for us...

1 Corinthians 15: 55 “O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[i]

The law shows us we are sinners. Where does the power of death come from which the devil has? Does it not come from his ability to deceive which produces lust in the man of flesh. Did through deceit, the devil, the serpent bring out lust of the flesh, in the woman taken from the man, for the fruit of the tree?


Yes, and God did not say that Adam would return to the dirt from whence he was taken until after the Fall.

Genesis 3:19- In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

Death was part of the curse.

Also, remember this...

1 Corinthians 15: 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

Before sin, death had no sting, my friend.


If the sting of death is sin, then sin is the means whereby death slays us. Pretty clear language, IMO.

...and Christ has suceeded in removing the sting of death once again for us...

1 Corinthians 15: 55 “O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[i]



Yes, and God did not say that Adam would return to the dirt from whence he was taken until after the Fall.

Genesis 3:19- In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

Death was part of the curse.

Also, remember this...

1 Corinthians 15: 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

Before sin, death had no sting, my friend.


If the sting of death is sin, then sin is the means whereby death slays us. Pretty clear language, IMO.

...and Christ has suceeded in removing the sting of death once again for us...

1 Corinthians 15: 55 “O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[i]

The law shows us we are sinners. Where does the power of death come from which the devil has? Does it not come from his ability to deceive which produces lust in the man of flesh. Did through deceit, the devil, the serpent bring out lust of the flesh, in the woman taken from the man, for the fruit of the tree?

Noeb
Sep 14th 2013, 12:05 AM
The sting of death is sin, not lack of the tree of life.This doesn't make any sense. Adam sinned and the way he died was separation from the tree of life. That's what it says.



Does Jesus need to eat from the tree of life to stay alive? Of course not, and neither will we when we are resurrected. Yet the tree of life will be there for us. (Revelation 22:2)The resurrected don't need the tree of life, and what does this have to do with your ignoring Genesis and 1 Corinthians that says the natural came first?



I don't need to prove that Adam was not mortal. You are the one that is saying that he was, so the burden of proof is on you. Remember, you're leading this dance. Where is the proof that Adam was mortal? Lay out exhibit A, B, C etc. and we will look at them one by one.

Why would the burden of proof lie with me. This whole thing began with your assertion that sickness and disease existed in the world of man before the Fall. This assertion cannot be supported by scripture. If you think it can, present the basis of your claim.

So when you're prepared to support your claim that Adam was mortal and subject to death before the Fall, let me know.;)Have. Answer the scriptures. Genesis and 1 Corinthians that says the natural came first. Adam sinned and the way he died was separation from the tree of life. That's what it says.



Now perhaps we should define our terms...how do you define "mortality"

If by mortality, you mean nothing more than possessing a physical material body, then I agree.Why would anyone define mortality this way?



But if you mean that Adam was perishable and subject to sickness, disease, and death before the Fall, you've got some proving to do.Done. Answer the scriptures. Genesis and 1 Corinthians that says the natural came first. Adam sinned and the way he died was separation from the tree of life. He could escape corruption with the tree of life. That's what it says.



Adam was a physical, composed of matter man, but that does not mean he was perishable and subject to disease before the FallThat would be true if the spiritual came first, but it didn't.



Human death is part of the curse...separation from the tree of life

Balabusha
Sep 14th 2013, 12:49 AM
Did death exist before the fall of Adam? Good question.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:26
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:19,20
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev 13:8
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb. 2:14

Why was the first man Adam created in the image of God, created subject to death and corruption, except for the above stated concerning the last Adam, the lamb of God the Christ, known of Spirit the God his Father that he would die before anything else was created?

Did this death the power of which belonged with: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him; exist before man was created??????????

This is a good point, did God create the earth with the foreknowledge of the fall? Did the sun not burn fuel before the fall? Did spiders have webs to collect falling leaves before the fall? I thinnk we have to trust God and not look to deep other than the message of redemption, and trust God with the parts we can't explain.

glad4mercy
Sep 14th 2013, 12:52 PM
This doesn't make any sense. Adam sinned and the way he died was separation from the tree of life. That's what it says.


The resurrected don't need the tree of life, and what does this have to do with your ignoring Genesis and 1 Corinthians that says the natural came first?


Have. Answer the scriptures. Genesis and 1 Corinthians that says the natural came first. Adam sinned and the way he died was separation from the tree of life. That's what it says.


Why would anyone define mortality this way?


Done. Answer the scriptures. Genesis and 1 Corinthians that says the natural came first. Adam sinned and the way he died was separation from the tree of life. He could escape corruption with the tree of life. That's what it says.


That would be true if the spiritual came first, but it didn't.


separation from the tree of life

Let's make it simple. What scripture says that Adam was perishable/mortal before the fall?

Where does it say that disease was in the world nefore the fall

Where dies it say that the fact that man was composed of mattee, that he was of necessity perishable and subject to disease.

As far as the alternate definition of mortality, and why anyone would define it differently than perishable, check your dictionary


This doesn't make any sense. Adam sinned and the way he died was separation from the tree of life. That's what it says.


The resurrected don't need the tree of life, and what does this have to do with your ignoring Genesis and 1 Corinthians that says the natural came first?


Have. Answer the scriptures. Genesis and 1 Corinthians that says the natural came first. Adam sinned and the way he died was separation from the tree of life. That's what it says.


Why would anyone define mortality this way?


Done. Answer the scriptures. Genesis and 1 Corinthians that says the natural came first. Adam sinned and the way he died was separation from the tree of life. He could escape corruption with the tree of life. That's what it says.


That would be true if the spiritual came first, but it didn't.


separation from the tree of life

I am not ignoring Genesis 1 or 1Cor 15. The truth is neither passage says that disease was in the world before the fall, or that man was perishable before the fall

Let's make it simple. What scripture says that Adam was perisable/mortal before the fall?

Where does it say that disease was in the world beore the fall

Where dies it say that the fact that man was composed of mattee, that he was of necessity perishable and subject to disease.

As far as the alternate definition of mortality, and why anyone would define it differently than perishable, check your dictionary

You are correct. The resurrected don't need to eat from a tree of life, yet the tree of life is part of the new creation in Rev 21-22. Therefore the presence of the tree of life in a place does not mean that the inhabitants of that place are perishable without it. Can we agree on that much?. Please give a simple yes or no

ContractKeeper
Sep 14th 2013, 01:17 PM
The word "fall" is used in the first or original post on this thread and is still being used.
Folks, our bibles make it clear that 'all' flesh was or is corrupted. "fall" is just the English word used to interpret that word "corrupted"

Studying the cultural anthropology of the Hebrews, and also studying the etymology of the (original) archaic Hebrew words used in the OT will help anyone inquiring on this subject of the "fall"

I still do not understand as much as I am seeking to understand on the subject that is being inquired of here on this thread.
But until I prayed and studied and inquired and prayed and studied and inquired over an over again persistently as to what God means when He reveals to us that 'all' flesh was or is 'corrupted'.

Man's disobedience caused not just man's flesh to be corrupted/fall but caused all flesh to be corrupted/fall.
Man is not the means or apparatus of all of this corruption, but man is the one who initiated all of this corruption.

Aviyah, God bless your soul for your inquiry on this subject, but no man will be able to totally or finally answer this question or these questions for you.
But I will tell you this: That the book of Genesis holds all of the answers to those questions, it is just a matter of seeking them out by persistent prayer, persistent study and persistent inquiry.

God answered most of these questions for me when I finally asked for no selfish reasons.
(but I still do not recognize what some of those my selfish reasons were)

And after most of those questions were answered for me, I found out that all of those answers were all already given to us in the book of Genesis. We or I or most of us just cannot or could not see those answers because of the traditions that have been passed down to us.

Not saying that the other books in our bibles do not answer some or all of them also, but they only compliment or affirm and reinforce what the book of Genesis already has revealed.

Aviyah, I could not see this back when I was praying, studying and inquiring on this subject. But what I see now is that the term "all" flesh was or is "corrupted" is the key to the answers that you are seeking.

Realizing the difference between "fall" and "corrupted" or the etymological differences between those two words is the key.



God bless and have mercy on us.

Noeb
Sep 14th 2013, 01:46 PM
Let's make it simple.Already have.



What scripture says that Adam was perishable/mortal before the fall?I said, and you have repeated them.



Where does it say that disease was in the world nefore the fallWhere does it say it was not?



Where dies it say that the fact that man was composed of mattee, that he was of necessity perishable and subject to disease.no one has claimed this



As far as the alternate definition of mortality, and why anyone would define it differently than perishable, check your dictionaryk.
"If by mortality, you mean nothing more than possessing a physical material body, then I agree."
Not there. Not the definition in anyway.



I am not ignoring Genesis 1 or 1Cor 15. The truth is neither passage says that disease was in the world before the fall, or that man was perishable before the fallLOL Man made of dust needed the tree of life and was natural, needing to be spiritual. They do indeed, just read.

percho
Sep 14th 2013, 04:15 PM
This is a good point, did God create the earth with the foreknowledge of the fall? Did the sun not burn fuel before the fall? Did spiders have webs to collect falling leaves before the fall? I thinnk we have to trust God and not look to deep other than the message of redemption, and trust God with the parts we can't explain.

I see death present when God said let there be light. Death was in the darkness that covered the face of the deep.


This is a good point, did God create the earth with the foreknowledge of the fall? Did the sun not burn fuel before the fall? Did spiders have webs to collect falling leaves before the fall? I thinnk we have to trust God and not look to deep other than the message of redemption, and trust God with the parts we can't explain.

I see death present when God said let there be light. Death was in the darkness that covered the face of the deep.

Noeb
Sep 14th 2013, 04:21 PM
I see death present when God said let there be light.This is correct......

glad4mercy
Sep 15th 2013, 12:18 AM
This is correct......

Gap theory? 15 chars


This is correct......

Gap theory? 15 chars

glad4mercy
Sep 15th 2013, 12:22 AM
You provided no scripture showing man was perishable before the fall, and even less to support disease in man before the fall. If you suppose you have, at least provide post number, because none of the verses you provided say what you are saying

I will continue Monday, and provide the dictionary references for mortal that you appear to have missed.

Genesis 1-3 and 1Cor 15 say nothing of perishability of or disease in man before the fall. You are reading into the text/eisegesis

sooninzion
Sep 15th 2013, 05:01 AM
Of course there was sickness and disease before the fall.

Did u actually write this Noeb?

Why do we ever argue on anything? I had given up on the other thread. But when I saw this I was shocked

God bless!!!

Noeb
Sep 15th 2013, 01:01 PM
Did u actually write this Noeb?

Why do we ever argue on anything? I had given up on the other thread. But when I saw this I was shocked

God bless!!!Hi! Yeah, I wrote it. An old earth pov is not new. So let me ask you.....

"cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread"

Does that mean there were no thorns and thistles up until that point?

percho
Sep 15th 2013, 06:46 PM
You provided no scripture showing man was perishable before the fall, and even less to support disease in man before the fall. If you suppose you have, at least provide post number, because none of the verses you provided say what you are saying

I will continue Monday, and provide the dictionary references for mortal that you appear to have missed.

Genesis 1-3 and 1Cor 15 say nothing of perishability of or disease in man before the fall. You are reading into the text/eisegesis

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:19,20

Before the foundation of the world was there going to be perishability of and or disease? After all the blood of the Christ was locked in. The lamb was going to die. That death was determined before anything of this present system of order had been laid down, before man in the image of his creator had been created. At this moment in, (I hate to use the word time here but for the lack of another,) time, before the foundation of the world, what was the Christ going to be? Some Eternal God Son that it is impossible to see death, a concept non existent, or was the Spirit God going to create a system inclusive of a man created in his image place, him before Satan and then in the fullness of time the Spirit God would bring forth through a virgin woman which was taken from the man created in his image, His only begotten Son, for the purpose of death in order to destroy him who had the power of death, by the giving of life again to his only begotten Son, his heir and so doing redeem those ho had succumbed to the power of Satan, death?

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Why is the very first thing that takes place on the earth, is the separation of light and darkness creating what we call the first twenty four hour period called the first day?

Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him. John 11:9,10

Is that not descriptive of that first day and night, that separated the light of the world God, with the Son in his loins before the foundation of the world from the darkness of this present world Satan?

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Acts 26:18 This is what that Son of God who had been born of woman, died and was the firstborn from the dead told Paul.

The very, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and God said, let there be light, spoken of in Gen. 1 before man was created in the image of God????

glad4mercy
Sep 17th 2013, 10:52 PM
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:19,20

Before the foundation of the world was there going to be perishability of and or disease? After all the blood of the Christ was locked in. The lamb was going to die. That death was determined before anything of this present system of order had been laid down, before man in the image of his creator had been created. At this moment in, (I hate to use the word time here but for the lack of another,) time, before the foundation of the world, what was the Christ going to be? Some Eternal God Son that it is impossible to see death, a concept non existent, or was the Spirit God going to create a system inclusive of a man created in his image place, him before Satan and then in the fullness of time the Spirit God would bring forth through a virgin woman which was taken from the man created in his image, His only begotten Son, for the purpose of death in order to destroy him who had the power of death, by the giving of life again to his only begotten Son, his heir and so doing redeem those ho had succumbed to the power of Satan, death?

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Why is the very first thing that takes place on the earth, is the separation of light and darkness creating what we call the first twenty four hour period called the first day?

Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him. John 11:9,10

Is that not descriptive of that first day and night, that separated the light of the world God, with the Son in his loins before the foundation of the world from the darkness of this present world Satan?

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Acts 26:18 This is what that Son of God who had been born of woman, died and was the firstborn from the dead told Paul.

The very, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and God said, let there be light, spoken of in Gen. 1 before man was created in the image of God????

God's foreknowledge of the Fall and of redemption does not prove that man was mortal or subject to disease before the Fall.

God knew all that would happen before it actually happened. That does not mean that the effects of those events preceded the events themselves

Darkness in Genesis 1:3 does not mean "mortal man" or man subject to disease. It does not even mean death or disease. The darkness He called night. We have night every night where I live, how about you?;)

percho
Sep 18th 2013, 02:05 AM
God's foreknowledge of the Fall and of redemption does not prove that man was mortal or subject to disease before the Fall.

God knew all that would happen before it actually happened. That does not mean that the effects of those events preceded the events themselves

Darkness in Genesis 1:3 does not mean "mortal man" or man subject to disease. It does not even mean death or disease. The darkness He called night. We have night every night where I live, how about you?;)

If Adam who was created in the image of God had not sinned and brought death to mankind from whence ever death came; Would not the sinless Adam have been the Christ, as of a lamb without spot and without blemish?

Was not Adam created so that the Christ could come in his, Adam's image for the purpose of death? Was that not foreordained before the foundation of the world? Before the foundation of the world, was the lamb of God, the Christ, going to be a man child? Was this man child son of God going go be the heir of all things? Heb. 1:2

Hebrews 2:6,7 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Adam was made for death. So the Son of God, the man child could also suffer death.

Was Satan already present on the earth at the time of Genesis 1:2? If not where was he? Did God create the earth without form and void with darkness upon the face of the deep and then bring the light and in six days add the beauty to the earth?

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, Acts 26:18

The power of Satan by the way is death See Heb 2:14. Was darkness upon the face of the deep in Gen 1:2 because Satan had caused the earth to become dead. Had God already cast Satan out of heaven to the earth and removed his, God's presence from the earth leaving with Satan and darkness. The earth that all the sons of God had shouted with joy over when God laid the foundations of the earth?

Just some thoughts.

glad4mercy
Sep 18th 2013, 05:59 PM
If Adam who was created in the image of God had not sinned and brought death to mankind from whence ever death came;

Sin entered the world through one man and death by sin. (Romans 5:12) There is no indication in the Bible that animals got sick or died, or that man got sick or died before the Fall. Seeds falling into the ground is not death in the sense that Romans 5 is speaking of. Vegation and fruit do not have souls. Only someone with a extra biblical agenda would try to say that fruit having seed in itself proves that death existed in the world of man before the Fall. It is pure eisegesis.


Would not the sinless Adam have been the Christ, as of a lamb without spot and without blemish?


Heavens no. Do you not believe that the LOGOS was eternally preexistent with God and that He was the one who was ordained to be the Saviour

You are way off track with the rest of your post. The presence of physical darkness ( Gen 1:3), satan, or even if the Gap theory is a valid way of interpreting Genesis 1:1-2, (you seem to hold to this view), it does not mean that death and disease existed in the world of men before the fall.

As far as Adam being made to die, Adam died because he sinned. God did not cause Adam to sin, but foreknew it, and He also foreknew redemption. This has nothing to do with when death entered the world. All you have proven is that God has perfect and eternal foreknowledge, which I also believe.

glad4mercy
Sep 18th 2013, 06:21 PM
Noeb

The reason why humans are called "mortals" is because sin made them subject to death. All humans die, (unless the Lord tarries.) This is because all have sinned.

Romans 5:12- Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death passed to all men, for all have sinned. Yet infants and innocents who are guilty of no personal sin also die, so how can it be said that they sinned? Because we all sinned in Adam. Just as Levi payed tithes to Melchizadik before he was born (while he was yet in Abraham's loins), in the same way we sinned in Adam.

I have been crucified, buried, and raised in Christ, yet I was not physically present in the Christ event. How then can it be said that I was united with Him in His death, burial, and resurrection? Because I am now in Christ.

In Adam, everyone died.

In Christ, we are made alive.

By the sin of Adam, many were made sinners. By the obedience of Christ, many were made righteous.
Yet this adamic sin sends no one to hell. It only produces a fallen humanity and physical death.

If you do not believe that all die because of the fact that all have sinned, then you have issues with Paul, not me.

Adam was not mortal, for mortal means subject to death, and Adam was not subject to death until he sinned.

Noeb
Sep 18th 2013, 07:02 PM
Still ignoring the ToL, the commandment, and the judgement God passed. For you, Romans 5 is the first book of the Bible. Look up seed

percho
Sep 18th 2013, 07:26 PM
Sin entered the world through one man and death by sin. (Romans 5:12) There is no indication in the Bible that animals got sick or died, or that man got sick or died before the Fall. Seeds falling into the ground is not death in the sense that Romans 5 is speaking of. Vegation and fruit do not have souls. Only someone with a extra biblical agenda would try to say that fruit having seed in itself proves that death existed in the world of man before the Fall. It is pure eisegesis.



Heavens no. Do you not believe that the LOGOS was eternally preexistent with God and that He was the one who was ordained to be the Saviour

You are way off track with the rest of your post. The presence of physical darkness ( Gen 1:3), satan, or even if the Gap theory is a valid way of interpreting Genesis 1:1-2, (you seem to hold to this view), it does not mean that death and disease existed in the world of men before the fall.

As far as Adam being made to die, Adam died because he sinned. God did not cause Adam to sin, but foreknew it, and He also foreknew redemption. This has nothing to do with when death entered the world. All you have proven is that God has perfect and eternal foreknowledge, which I also believe.

What is the only promise we have that God, who cannot lie, made before the world begin or if you like before time begin or before times ages? Is every other promise made by God after that relative to and subject to that promise?

If death isn't existent and a present known why is this promise being made? Who is this promise being made for? Who is the seed for whom the promise was made? At this time, before times ages, before the world begin, there is no man in the image of God, yet at that ?time? for lack of a better word, the Christ, sinless, without blemish and without spot is going to die.

What is death? I would guess your answer to that would be, separated from God, of which I have no problem. At this ?time? why was the Christ going to be separated from God, die?

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14

Is that why the Christ the just one, sinless is going to die, to destroy him who has the power of death, the devil, Satan thus destroying the last enemy death?

Will that enemy be destroyed by death or will it be destroyed because the sinless one who died receives the promise of God?

Why is it the promise of hope of eternal life? Is it cut and dried, chiseled in stone? Did the Christ, born of woman, learn obedience by the things he suffered, Heb 5:8? Did he become obedient unto death even the death of the cross, Phil 2:8? Did he resist unto blood striving against sin, Striving against not being obedient and endured the cross, despising the shame thereof and by being resurrected to the right hand of the throne of God became the author and finisher of the faith.

Can one not see that Jesus the Christ striving against sin, became obedient unto death and was given the promise of God. That Jesus became the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Faith. Eternal life. Prophetically he said I am the resurrection and the life.

It is Jesus the Son of God, born of woman who is the heir of God, the heir of eternal life, Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,

Every thing was made for him and has been given him and we can be joint heirs with him? What is man? We see Jesus, the only begotten of the Father.

Was he begotten? How?

exitludos
Sep 18th 2013, 08:38 PM
The book of Job is important to this question.

In the final chapters, when God speaks to Job, he uses his status as creator of the earth to make the point that his ways are beyond Job's knowing.

God describes the world, showing how his intimate knowledge with the world's inner-workings as he created it to be is beyond Job's understanding. God first surveys inanimate things, the world as he created it to be. This includes the earth, the sea, time, light and darkness, weather, the stars, and so on.

God second surveys animate things, the animals as he created them to be. This includes lions which hunt, ravens which hunt, the dangerous wild ox, the accidental crushing of an ostrich's eggs, eagles which hunt, and the dangerous river behemoth (hippopotamus?) and sea leviathan (crocodile?).

Finally, death as inherent to God's creation can be found even in Genesis 2. God permitted Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of life, which would make them 'live forever'. If humans were created as already able to live forever, this tree would not be needed. God took away their right to the tree of life, which is equivalent to the curse of death which God sentenced them to.

glad4mercy
Sep 18th 2013, 11:09 PM
Still ignoring the ToL, the commandment, and the judgement God passed. For you, Romans 5 is the first book of the Bible. Look up seed

I don't know what ToL means

An unbroken commandment does not bring death. So no death before the Fall still.

No judgement was passed until after the Fall. No death before the Fall.

Vegetables and fruits don't have souls, and the box you opened was the question "did death and disease exist in men before the fall.

You are backtracking now.


Still ignoring the ToL, the commandment, and the judgement God passed. For you, Romans 5 is the first book of the Bible. Look up seed

I don't know what ToL means

An unbroken commandment does not bring death. So now death before the Fall still.

No judgement was passed until after the Fall. No death before the Fall.

Vegetables and fruits don't have souls, and the box you opened was the question "did death and disease exist in men before the fall.

You are backtracking now.

glad4mercy
Sep 18th 2013, 11:16 PM
If death isn't existent and a present known why is this promise being made?

Divine Foreknowledge.


At this time, before times ages, before the world begin, there is no man in the image of God, yet at that ?time? for lack of a better word, the Christ, sinless, without blemish and without spot is going to die.


Foreknowledge


Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14

Is that why the Christ the just one, sinless is going to die, to destroy him who has the power of death, the devil, Satan thus destroying the last enemy death?


Does this prove death existed in man before the Fall? No it does not. It proves that God foreknew that man would fall.

God is not the author of sin.


What is death? I would guess your answer to that would be, separated from God, of which I have no problem. At this ?time? why was the Christ going to be separated from God, die?


Physical death- seperation of the soul/spirit from the body

Spiritual death- Seperation of the soul/spirit from God

second death- eternal seperation from God.

No man died physically, spiritually, or eternally until after the Fall.


Will that enemy be destroyed by death or will it be destroyed because the sinless one who died receives the promise of God?



Man did not die until after the Fall. The day you eat of the tree you will die. Not before.


Why is it the promise of hope of eternal life? Is it cut and dried, chiseled in stone? Did the Christ, born of woman, learn obedience by the things he suffered, Heb 5:8? Did he become obedient unto death even the death of the cross, Phil 2:8? Did he resist unto blood striving against sin, Striving against not being obedient and endured the cross, despising the shame thereof and by being resurrected to the right hand of the throne of God became the author and finisher of the faith.


Agree with all this, but still the Bible says that no man was subject to death until after the fall.

Conclusion- Man was never subject to disease and death until after the Fall.

Simple


If death isn't existent and a present known why is this promise being made?

Divine Foreknowledge.


At this time, before times ages, before the world begin, there is no man in the image of God, yet at that ?time? for lack of a better word, the Christ, sinless, without blemish and without spot is going to die.


Foreknowledge


Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14

Is that why the Christ the just one, sinless is going to die, to destroy him who has the power of death, the devil, Satan thus destroying the last enemy death?


Does this prove death existed in man before the Fall? No it does not. It proves that God foreknew that man would fall.

God is not the author of sin.


What is death? I would guess your answer to that would be, separated from God, of which I have no problem. At this ?time? why was the Christ going to be separated from God, die?


Physical death- seperation of the soul/spirit from the body

Spiritual death- Seperation of the soul/spirit from God

second death- eternal seperation from God.

No man died physically, spiritually, or eternally until after the Fall.


Will that enemy be destroyed by death or will it be destroyed because the sinless one who died receives the promise of God?



Man did not die until after the Fall. The day you eat of the tree you will die. Not before.


Why is it the promise of hope of eternal life? Is it cut and dried, chiseled in stone? Did the Christ, born of woman, learn obedience by the things he suffered, Heb 5:8? Did he become obedient unto death even the death of the cross, Phil 2:8? Did he resist unto blood striving against sin, Striving against not being obedient and endured the cross, despising the shame thereof and by being resurrected to the right hand of the throne of God became the author and finisher of the faith.


Agree with all this, but still the Bible says that no man was subject to death until after the fall.

Conclusion- There was no disease or death in man until after the Fall. No mention of death in animals until after the fall, if you want to say there was, you are doing so without any scriptural support. Vegetation dying dont bother me none, because vegetation does not have a soul. If you hold to "gap theory", gap theory does not teach that death or disease existed in man or animal created on days 5 and 6, and no mention of disease anywhere. If God judged the earth between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 as you seem to think, that does not mean that the Kosmos he created in days 1-6 of Genesis 1 had sin, disease, or death in them, other than perhaps soulless seeds falling into the ground producing soulless plants. If all you have is the fact that God created trees and herbs with seed to reproduce, then you have a weak argument for disease and death in man before the Fall.

There definitely was no death in man until after the Fall. "the day you eat of it you will die"

Simple

Noeb
Sep 18th 2013, 11:26 PM
I don't know what ToL meanstree of life



An unbroken commandment does not bring death. So now death before the Fall still.because they had the ToL



No judgement was passed until after the Fall. No death before the Fall.because they had the ToL



Vegetables and fruits don't have souls, and the box you opened was the question "did death and disease exist in men before the fall.man needed the ToL for a reason



You are backtracking now.lol....you know me a lot better than to say something so silly

glad4mercy
Sep 18th 2013, 11:30 PM
I don't know what ToL means

An unbroken commandment does not bring death. So now death before the Fall still.

No judgement was passed until after the Fall. No death before the Fall.

Vegetables and fruits don't have souls, and the box you opened was the question "did death and disease exist in men before the fall.

You are backtracking now.



I don't know what ToL means

An unbroken commandment does not bring death. So now death before the Fall still.

No judgement was passed until after the Fall. No death before the Fall.

Vegetables and fruits don't have souls, and the box you opened was the question "did death and disease exist in men before the fall.

You are backtracking now.

I just realized what ToL meant. The existence of the tree of life does not prove that death was in man before the fall. You are reading that into the text.

If you think that the only reason we die is because of exclusion from the tree of life, you are completely ignoring what Paul said in Romans 5:12 and the rest of the chapter.

Yes, my Bible begins in Genesis just like yours. Except you do not rightly understand what happened in the Fall. If you do not see that the effects of sin began before the expulsion from the tree of life, you are not reading carefully. Look at the responses, reactions, and actions of Adam and Eve after they ate the fruit and before they were expelled from the garden. They were already spiritually dead before they were kicked out of the garden and from the tree.

God kicked them out so they would not be like satan and eat the fruit and live forever as evil sinners.

God sent a Saviour to redeem man.

It is God who cursed man and said that he would return to the dust.

Genesis 3: 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Death is part of the curse. God cursed the ground for Adam's sake. God laid judgement on Adam, Eve, and the Serpent. The judgement is laid out in Genesis 3

The ground was not cursed until after the fall

Man did not become subject to death until after the fall.

We are mortal because of the curse. Jesus came to remove the curse.

We are mortal because of the curse. There was no curse until after the Fall.

Death entered because of the curse. Before the Fall there was no curse. Very simple.



This is what the bible teaches.

glad4mercy
Sep 18th 2013, 11:41 PM
.


tree of life


because they had the ToL


because they had the ToL


man needed the ToL for a reason


lol....you know me a lot better than to say something so silly

The Bible says death passed to all men because all sinned. It does not say "because we do not have the tree of life".

The Bible shows man as fallen before he was expelled from the garden, hiding from God, trying to cover himself, passing the buck for his sin, etc. This shows that spiritual death occurred before expulsion from the garden.

Do you have the knowledge of good and evil? How so, seeing you never ate from that other tree in the midst of the garden?

If the knowledge of good and evil can be possessed without eating from that tree, could it be that the trees were not the actual cause of life and death, but that obedience and disobedience were the cause of life and death. That seems to be what Romans 5 teaches.

Blessings.

Noeb
Sep 18th 2013, 11:58 PM
I just realized what ToL meant. The existence of the tree of life does not prove that death was in man before the fall. You are reading that into the text. No, actually, that's what it says.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Hebrew is [dying, you will die]

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Gen 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Gen 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.



If you think that the only reason we die is because of exclusion from the tree of life, you are completely ignoring what Paul said in Romans 5:12 and the rest of the chapter.How so? It says Adam sinned so we all die because of the judgement. I guess you have a weird version that doesn't say this or something?



If you do not see that the effects of sin began before the expulsion from the tree of life, you are not reading carefully. Look at the responses, reactions, and actions of Adam and Eve after they ate the fruit and before they were expelled from the garden. They were already spiritually dead before they were kicked out of the garden and from the tree.You made this up!



God kicked them out so they would not be like satandoesn't say or even imply such a thing. This is your belief, not scripture.



It is God who cursed man and said that he would return to the dust.by removal from the ToL



The ground was not cursed until after the falldoesn't mean there was no death already as many have shown



Man did not become subject to death until after the fall.because of no ToL



We are mortal because of the curse.man was earthy first according to scripture



Jesus came to remove the curse.Jesus restored what Adam lost, yet we still die.



Death entered because of the curse.because of no ToL

percho
Sep 19th 2013, 01:45 AM
No, actually, that's what it says.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Hebrew is [dying, you will die]

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Gen 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Gen 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


How so? It says Adam sinned so we all die because of the judgement. I guess you have a weird version that doesn't say this or something?


You made this up!


doesn't say or even imply such a thing. This is your belief, not scripture.


by removal from the ToL


doesn't mean there was no death already as many have shown


because of no ToL


man was earthy first according to scripture


Jesus restored what Adam lost, yet we still die.


because of no ToL


Correct Noeb. We still all die, however because Jesus the Christ by grace of God his Father in raising Jesus from the dead and renewing the Holy Spirit to Jesus the Holy Spirit can now be shed on us by which we now can be heirs (not yet inheritors) of the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:6,7 Acts 2:32,33

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

If Jesus does not die and if the dead Jesus is not raised from the dead there is no renewal of the promise of the Holy Spirit and it would not be shed on anyone.

Then man still would be in the state of, Dying thou shall surly die.

percho
Sep 19th 2013, 02:02 AM
Why do we qualify death as physical/spiritual? physical/spiritual death of life can not be found together anywhere in the original languages of the OT or NT.

Prior to the three day and three night period, the death or Christ to the resurrection of Christ which revealed faith; Man upon dying in the flesh had no hope of life.

Jesus Christ sinless in being obedient unto death and in being raised from death by God, his Father brought to light life (eternal) and incorruptibility.
Jesus became the substance of things hoped for (the promise of God) the evidence of things not seen. The Faith.
That is the faith that Abraham died in. That is his seed, Christ, the Son of God all the nations of the earth would be blessed. In his seed, Christ the Son of God being raised from the dead. That is what he saw when God told him to kill his only son, Isaac. That was the day of Christ Abraham saw spoken of in John.

To this very moment he and only he is the only one born of woman who has inherited, life and incorruptibility. We have been given the earnest of the Spirit of we also inheriting that life and incorruptibility.

Noeb
Sep 19th 2013, 04:26 AM
The Bible says death passed to all men because all sinned. It does not say "because we do not have the tree of life".death passed to all because the sin of one was "condemnation" (judgement) to all. That's what it says. No? Separation from the ToL and God. If any man could live and not sin, there would be no death for that individual! The only reason Jesus died was because he laid down his life for the rest who did sin.



The Bible shows man as fallen before he was expelled from the garden, hiding from God, trying to cover himself, passing the buck for his sin, etc. This shows that spiritual death occurred before expulsion from the garden.Nonsense. They sinned, and knew they sinned, before the were kicked out. It's more than evident they were not separated from God, and there's no evidence their constitution changed.



Do you have the knowledge of good and evil?All who have reached accountability do. I was about 5 years old when I first knew I sinned against God.



If the knowledge of good and evil can be possessed without eating from that tree, could it be that the trees were not the actual cause of life and death, but that obedience and disobedience were the cause of life and death. That seems to be what Romans 5 teaches.Really? What does Romans 5 say about the ToL and ToKoGaE?



Blessings.Bless you!

Noeb
Sep 19th 2013, 04:29 AM
Correct Noeb. We still all die, however because Jesus the Christ by grace of God his Father in raising Jesus from the dead and renewing the Holy Spirit to Jesus the Holy Spirit can now be shed on us by which we now can be heirs (not yet inheritors) of the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:6,7 Acts 2:32,33

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

If Jesus does not die and if the dead Jesus is not raised from the dead there is no renewal of the promise of the Holy Spirit and it would not be shed on anyone.

Then man still would be in the state of, Dying thou shall surly die.:thumbsup:
.

glad4mercy
Sep 19th 2013, 04:46 PM
If any man could live and not sin, there would be no death for that individual!

Without the tree of life?

Thank you for agreeing with me that Adam was not mortal before he fell, for if you think that a man can live without sin and not die without the tree of life, then the same was true of Adam.

...and by your statement, then a man is not mortal until he sins. See what a fine corner you've painted yourself into?

So if you think that if a person could live and not sin and therefore not die, then that person is not mortal until he sins, a statement that both scriptures and experience show to be false, ( experience because innocents, infants, and unborn babies die)

So do we die because we sinned in Adam, because of our own sins, because of expulsion from the tree of life, or all three...and if all three where did this contradictory statement come from that says if man could live and not sin there would be no death for him? If such an impossible, ( other than Christ) person existed, would God plant a tree of life in their back yard?

This one simple sentence just undid and contradicted everything you argued for previously.

glad4mercy
Sep 19th 2013, 05:09 PM
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Hebrew is [dying, you will die]


Yes, Adam became spiritually dead, ( as in the death in Ephesians 2) the day he ate the forbidden fruit. He died physically hundreds of years later.

1 Corinthians was written long after the Fall. I don't know how this proves man was mortal before the fall. All it proves is that man became mortal after the Fall.


How so? It says Adam sinned so we all die because of the judgement. I guess you have a weird version that doesn't say this or something?



Yes, including unborn who have no personal sin. They die because they died in Adam back in Genesis. Just the same way as the fact that we live because our sins were put on Jesus about 2,000 years ago.


You made this up!


No, I'm just repeating what Moses described and Paul later explained.

You don't think that Adam was already seperated from God and at emnity with God before he was expelled from the garden? You don't believe that sin seperates us from God? Adam was already seperated from God before he was expelled from the garden. If you do not believe this, your view of sin is lighter than mine.




Man did not become subject to death until after the fall.
because of no ToL


You still do not understand that when Adam and Eve sinned, they fell. Before they were expelled from the garden, they were already fallen, seperated from God the source of life.

Who is the source of life, God or the tree of life. Did God breathe in their nostrils so that they could become alive, or did He stuff fruit from the ToL down their throat?

I suppose you still think that Adam and Eve were not yet sinners, because they only committed one sin. Yet I only have to commit one sin to be a sinner and in need of a Saviour.


man was earthy first according to scripture


So was the transgression. The transgression brought mortality, disease, and death, not the reverse.




Jesus came to remove the curse.
Jesus restored what Adam lost, yet we still die.


The curse will be fully removed in New Jerusalem.




Death entered because of the curse.
because of no ToL

But you said if a man could live without sin, he would not die, yet there is no tol available


Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Hebrew is [dying, you will die]


Yes, Adam became spiritually dead, ( as in the death in Ephesians 2) the day he ate the forbidden fruit. He died physically hundreds of years later.

1 Corinthians was written long after the Fall. I don't know how this proves man was mortal before the fall. All it proves is that man became mortal after the Fall.


How so? It says Adam sinned so we all die because of the judgement. I guess you have a weird version that doesn't say this or something?



Yes, including unborn who have no personal sin. They die because they died in Adam back in Genesis. Just the same way as the fact that we live because our sins were put on Jesus about 2,000 years ago.


You made this up!


No, I'm just repeating what Moses described and Paul later explained.

You don't think that Adam was already seperated from God and at emnity with God before he was expelled from the garden? You don't believe that sin seperates us from God? Adam was already seperated from God before he was expelled from the garden. If you do not believe this, your view of sin is lighter than mine.




Man did not become subject to death until after the fall.
because of no ToL


You still do not understand that when Adam and Eve sinned, they fell. Before they were expelled from the garden, they were already fallen, seperated from God the source of life.

Who is the source of life, God or the tree of life. Did God breathe in their nostrils so that they could become alive, or did He stuff fruit from the ToL down their throat?

I suppose you still think that Adam and Eve were not yet sinners, because they only committed one sin. Yet I only have to commit one sin to be a sinner and in need of a Saviour.


man was earthy first according to scripture


So was the transgression. The transgression brought mortality, disease, and death, not the reverse.


Are you trying to say that the curse came before the transgression?

Death is part of the curse...(Gen 3:19)
The curse came after the Fall.
Therefore death came after the Fall..

Simple



Jesus came to remove the curse.
Jesus restored what Adam lost, yet we still die.


The curse will be fully removed in New Jerusalem.




Death entered because of the curse.
because of no ToL

But you said if a man could live without sin, he would not die, yet there is no tol available. Your views are not consistent.

glad4mercy
Sep 19th 2013, 05:26 PM
Why do we qualify death as physical/spiritual? physical/spiritual death of life can not be found together anywhere in the original languages of the OT or NT.

Prior to the three day and three night period, the death or Christ to the resurrection of Christ which revealed faith; Man upon dying in the flesh had no hope of life.

Jesus Christ sinless in being obedient unto death and in being raised from death by God, his Father brought to light life (eternal) and incorruptibility.
Jesus became the substance of things hoped for (the promise of God) the evidence of things not seen. The Faith.
That is the faith that Abraham died in. That is his seed, Christ, the Son of God all the nations of the earth would be blessed. In his seed, Christ the Son of God being raised from the dead. That is what he saw when God told him to kill his only son, Isaac. That was the day of Christ Abraham saw spoken of in John.

To this very moment he and only he is the only one born of woman who has inherited, life and incorruptibility. We have been given the earnest of the Spirit of we also inheriting that life and incorruptibility.

Physical death is found in numerous places in the Bible. Spiritual death is found in...

Matthew 8:22- But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Romans 7:9- For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Romans 7:11- For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Ephesians 2:1- And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5- Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Col. 2:13- And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1 Timothy 5:6- But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

The rest of your post is true, but it does not show that Adam had death in him before the Fall. Do you hold that death was in Adam, and that the only thing keeping him alive was the tree of life?

glad4mercy
Sep 19th 2013, 05:34 PM
Noeb and Percho...

Do you believe that "death" was already in Adam, and the only thing that was keeping him alive was the tree of life?

What if Adam would not have fallen, and his descendants filled the earth? How would they have stayed alive? Would they have planted trees of life all over the earth?

Of course we know that all of this is moot, because man did fall and die. Do you think that God ordained the Fall or that He merely foreknew it and allowed it to happen?

Was it God's will for Adam to sin, or was it His will to allow Adam to choose obedience or disobedience, life or death?

An answer to these questions would go a long way in clearing up this discussion.

Was God's foreknowledge a simple knowing ahead what would happen or did He foreknow all things because he decreed and caused all things to happen?

If you answer a certain way, your answer will be consistent with the views you presented here. If you answer the other way, then your argument of dust man first/spiritual man second is very true in itself, but does not prove mortality in man before the fall.

Did God decree and cause men to fall so that He could send the Saviour, or did He decree the sending of the Saviour, and send Him because He chose to give man a choice between life and death, obedience and disobedience and foreknew that man would fall.

I look forward to your answers

glad4mercy
Sep 19th 2013, 05:47 PM
Correct Noeb. We still all die, however because Jesus the Christ by grace of God his Father in raising Jesus from the dead and renewing the Holy Spirit to Jesus the Holy Spirit can now be shed on us by which we now can be heirs (not yet inheritors) of the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:6,7 Acts 2:32,33

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

If Jesus does not die and if the dead Jesus is not raised from the dead there is no renewal of the promise of the Holy Spirit and it would not be shed on anyone.

Then man still would be in the state of, Dying thou shall surly die.

Yes, but man was not in the state of "dying thou shalt surely die until after the Fall.


Correct Noeb. We still all die, however because Jesus the Christ by grace of God his Father in raising Jesus from the dead and renewing the Holy Spirit to Jesus the Holy Spirit can now be shed on us by which we now can be heirs (not yet inheritors) of the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:6,7 Acts 2:32,33

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

If Jesus does not die and if the dead Jesus is not raised from the dead there is no renewal of the promise of the Holy Spirit and it would not be shed on anyone.

Then man still would be in the state of, Dying thou shall surly die.

Yes, but man was not in the state of "dying thou shalt surely die until after the Fall.

glad4mercy
Sep 19th 2013, 10:33 PM
Nonsense. They sinned, and knew they sinned, before the were kicked out. It's more than evident they were not separated from God, and there's no evidence their constitution changed.



In this post I will ask too many questions for you to be able to answer, just think about it, and answer the one question on the bottom.


Adam was not seperated from God when he sinned? You do not believe that sin seperates from God?

How much sin does it take to seperate from God? 1? 2? 100? 1,000,000?

You do not believe that Adam died spiritually the day he ate the forbidden fruit? Did he ever die spiritually? When did he die spiritually?

Did he die spiritually because he was expelled from the tree?

Then according to you, sin does not kill us spiritually, it just makes God mad enough to seperate Himself from us by sending us away. No emnity on our part, no hostility towards God, we are not such that we are taken captive by the devil at his will before salvation. I guess you think we are neutral towards God as unsaved sinners, I guess Adam hit the point of neutrality when he broke God's commandment regarding the forbidden fruit. Yet the Bible does not teach spiritual neutrality. You are either alive or dead.

So you think that Adam was still spiritually alive after he sinned. You do not think that Adam needed to be saved from his one sin? You do not think that one sin had to be remitted somehow, or else Adam would not only die physically, but perish eternally? Do you hold that one sin is not enough to seperate from God, which is spiritual death? Then you need to tell me how many sins do you have to commit to be killed by sin. Do all of my sins need to be covered by the blood, or only enough to tip the scales in my favor?

The fallenness of man is not merely a matter of something lacking (like the tree of life), it is a matter of something real in us called sin that keeps us in bondage until we are set free by grace. See Romans 7:5, Romans 7:17; Romans 7:20; Romans 7:23

Christ came to reconcile us to God, yes amen. But HE also came to set us free from the power of sin, which power you seem to deny. You can have a glass of pure water and put one drop of poison in it and it now becomes poison. Sin is the same way. One sin is just as deadly as a million, unless they are covered by the Blood of the Lamb.

In Christ, sin is destroyed. Yet we may still commit acts of sin. This is because it is the body of sin that is destroyed, and we become free from sin more and more as we reckon it to be dead and destroyed. Sin once had power over us, but no more, or else only as much power as we allow it to have. In Christ, sin has no more dominion over us. If it no more has dominion, it follows that at one time it did.

You do not have to answer the 1001 questions in this post? Just tell me...

a. Did Adam's sin create a seperation (not a physical but a spiritual seperation, an alienation of heart) from God?

I have strayed a bit from the topic, so I will withdraw from this thread, and perhaps continue in another.

Consuelo Tamayo
Sep 19th 2013, 11:16 PM
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. (Ro. 5:12)

I hear many people say that there was no death period until Adam sinned.

Was not death a necessary part of nature even before sin? I don't mean that death was a part of human life, but in the animal and plant kingdoms, death is necessary for many species - for example, carnivores. If that's the case, what did God intend for many carnivorous mammals, reptiles, fish, and insects to eat without resulting in the death of another animal? Even plants must have died from omnivores - root vegetables such as carrot must be killed to be eaten. Plus, certain plants such as the tumbleweed rely on death to reproduce.

I think there is a misunderstanding when people think of the Fall. When Adam sinned, I do not believe the laws of nature were changed except for humans.



That is right, the first reference to death in the Scriptures occurs at Genesis 2:16, 17 in God’s command to the first man concerning the eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, violation of which command would result in death. However, death among animals as a natural process was evidently already in effect, since they are passed over completely in the Biblical presentation of the introduction of death into the human family. (Compare 2Pe 2:12.) The gravity of God’s warning about the death penalty for disobedience would therefore be understandable to his human son, Adam. Adam’s disobedience to his Creator brought death to him. (Ge 3:19; Jas 1:14, 15) Thereafter, Adam’s sin and its consequence, death, spread to all. I hope this helps



Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. (Ro. 5:12)

I hear many people say that there was no death period until Adam sinned.

Was not death a necessary part of nature even before sin? I don't mean that death was a part of human life, but in the animal and plant kingdoms, death is necessary for many species - for example, carnivores. If that's the case, what did God intend for many carnivorous mammals, reptiles, fish, and insects to eat without resulting in the death of another animal? Even plants must have died from omnivores - root vegetables such as carrot must be killed to be eaten. Plus, certain plants such as the tumbleweed rely on death to reproduce.

I think there is a misunderstanding when people think of the Fall. When Adam sinned, I do not believe the laws of nature were changed except for humans.



That is right, the first reference to death in the Scriptures occurs at Genesis 2:16, 17 in God’s command to the first man concerning the eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, violation of which command would result in death. However, death among animals as a natural process was evidently already in effect, since they are passed over completely in the Biblical presentation of the introduction of death into the human family. (Compare 2Pe 2:12.) The gravity of God’s warning about the death penalty for disobedience would therefore be understandable to his human son, Adam. Adam’s disobedience to his Creator brought death to him. (Ge 3:19; Jas 1:14, 15) Thereafter, Adam’s sin and its consequence, death, spread to all. I hope this helps

percho
Sep 20th 2013, 12:14 AM
Physical death is found in numerous places in the Bible. Spiritual death is found in...

Matthew 8:22- But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Romans 7:9- For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Romans 7:11- For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Ephesians 2:1- And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5- Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Col. 2:13- And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1 Timothy 5:6- But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

The rest of your post is true, but it does not show that Adam had death in him before the Fall. Do you hold that death was in Adam, and that the only thing keeping him alive was the tree of life?

I am saying that death existed before Adam sinned and brought death to man. Adam was created of the elements, corruptible, needing an outside source for life. He was not created with life in himself as his creator has in himself.

It was foreordained upon obedience for the Son of God to be given life in himself as his Father has life in himself. John 5:26

Jesus the Son of God was born of woman of corruptible flesh. He learned obedience from the things he suffered and was made perfect and incorruptible by being raised from the dead by Spirit the God.
Romans 6:9 Acts 13:34 Hebrews 5:7-9

Noeb
Sep 20th 2013, 04:36 AM
Without the tree of life?Yes. Read. Jesus died because he laid down his life.



Thank you for agreeing with me that Adam was not mortal before he fellI didn't.

Noeb
Sep 20th 2013, 04:46 AM
An answer to these questions would go a long way in clearing up this discussion.

I look forward to your answers
In this post I will ask too many questions for you to be able to answer, just think about it, and answer the one question on the bottom.I believe we've been through ALL this in other threads and nothing was 'cleared up'. Use them as a reference if you wish.

glad4mercy
Sep 20th 2013, 05:22 PM
Yes. Read. Jesus died because he laid down his life.


I didn't.

Of course we know that the above is true of Jesus for He is God incarnate, right?

But you did not say Jesus, you said a hypothetical person, ie if someone could live and not sin, there would be no death for Him. Of course we know that Jesus laid down a sinless life. But you said that if a person could live and not sin, he would not die. Yet we do not have the tree of life. Your hypothetical person, (sinless), is impossible except for Jesus, but I will go along with you to show that your statement here is not consistent with everything else you've been saying.

a. If a person could live and not sin, there would be no death for him. ( your statement.)
b. Yet there is no tree of life available for us.
c. Those by your own statement, a person could escape death without the tree of life if they did not sin.

I do not agree that it is possible for a person to escape death in any way but to be here when the Lord translates us. Yet your statement indicates that you think a person can live a sinless life and not die, or at least theoretically if they did, they would not die, even without the tree of life.

So if this is true, ( according to you and not me), then why is it not true of the prefall Adam.


Yes. Read. Jesus died because he laid down his life.


I didn't.

Of course we know that the above is true of Jesus for He is God incarnate, right?

But you did not say Jesus, you said a hypothetical person, ie if someone could live and not sin, there would be no death for Him. Of course we know that Jesus laid down a sinless life. But you said that if a person could live and not sin, he would not die. Yet we do not have the tree of life. Your hypothetical person, (sinless), is impossible except for Jesus, but I will go along with you to show that your statement here is not consistent with everything else you've been saying.

a. If a person could live and not sin, there would be no death for him. ( your statement.)
b. Yet there is no tree of life available for us.
c. Those by your own statement, a person could escape death without the tree of life if they did not sin.

I do not agree that it is possible for a person to escape death in any way but to be here when the Lord translates us. Yet your statement indicates that you think a person can live a sinless life and not die, or at least theoretically if they did, they would not die, even without the tree of life.

So if this is true, ( according to you and not me), then why is it not true of the prefall Adam.

glad4mercy
Sep 20th 2013, 05:27 PM
I am saying that death existed before Adam sinned and brought death to man. Adam was created of the elements, corruptible, needing an outside source for life. He was not created with life in himself as his creator has in himself.

It was foreordained upon obedience for the Son of God to be given life in himself as his Father has life in himself. John 5:26

Jesus the Son of God was born of woman of corruptible flesh. He learned obedience from the things he suffered and was made perfect and incorruptible by being raised from the dead by Spirit the God.
Romans 6:9 Acts 13:34 Hebrews 5:7-9

So you hold that Adam had death in himself? So then God created death? How is it then that death is called the "last enemy", when you think death was created by God and put in man by God.

God gave man a free will to choose life or death. If life was not in man, then neither was death. You can't say that life was not in him but death was. Death came from the tree of knowledge, or rather disobedience to God's one command.

Did God give man a commandment and then not enable him to keep it.


I am saying that death existed before Adam sinned and brought death to man. Adam was created of the elements, corruptible, needing an outside source for life. He was not created with life in himself as his creator has in himself.

It was foreordained upon obedience for the Son of God to be given life in himself as his Father has life in himself. John 5:26

Jesus the Son of God was born of woman of corruptible flesh. He learned obedience from the things he suffered and was made perfect and incorruptible by being raised from the dead by Spirit the God.
Romans 6:9 Acts 13:34 Hebrews 5:7-9

So you hold that Adam had death in himself? So then God created death? How is it then that death is called the "last enemy", when you think death was created by God and put in man by God.

God gave man a free will to choose life or death. If life was not in man, then neither was death. You can't say that life was not in him but death was. Death came from the tree of knowledge, or rather disobedience to God's one command.

Did God give man a commandment and then not enable him to keep it.


I believe we've been through ALL this in other threads and nothing was 'cleared up'. Use them as a reference if you wish.

90 percent of what was mentioned in the thread was not covered in our earlier chats. Therefore, you either cannot or will not answer the questions.


I believe we've been through ALL this in other threads and nothing was 'cleared up'. Use them as a reference if you wish.

90 percent of what was mentioned in the thread was not covered in our earlier chats. Therefore, you either cannot or will not answer the questions.

glad4mercy
Sep 20th 2013, 05:39 PM
I believe we've been through ALL this in other threads and nothing was 'cleared up'. Use them as a reference if you wish.

Never, never did you answer these...


What if Adam would not have fallen, and his descendants filled the earth? How would they have stayed alive? Would they have planted trees of life all over the earth?

Of course we know that all of this is moot, because man did fall and die. Do you think that God ordained the Fall or that He merely foreknew it and allowed it to happen?

Was it God's will for Adam to sin, or was it His will to allow Adam to choose obedience or disobedience, life or death?

or

You do not believe that sin seperates from God?

So you think that Adam was still spiritually alive after he sinned.

You do not think that Adam needed to be saved from his one sin?

You do not think that one sin had to be remitted somehow, or else Adam would not only die physically, but perish eternally?

Then you need to tell me how many sins do you have to commit to be killed by sin.

Did Adam's sin create a seperation (not a physical but a spiritual seperation, an alienation of heart) from God?


Since you either cannot or will not answer these questions, I will let you off the hook and ask you one question that I asked you in this thread for the very first time...


Why don't you at least answer this, since it is a very relevant question towards your position. Can you answer one question? You cannot say you have already answered it, for I have never asked you this before..

Choose a or b

a. Did God ordain and predestine man to sin and fall so that He could send His Son,

or

b. did He ordain to send His Son because of the fact that He ordained giving Adam a choice between life and death, and knew in His perfect foreknowledge that Adam would choose death and he and his descendants would need a Saviour.

Many of the answers you have given in this thread seem to indicate that you would hold to the former position (premise a), while I hold to the latter (premise b). So which is it, do you hold to b, even though many of the things you have said in this thread rather support A, or do you hold to premise a,. as your argument seems to indicate

This is what I see you saying in your arguments

"Adam was mortal before the Fall because sin and death was a necessity for him and us to receive spiritual bodies"


This is the logical conclusion that the arguments that you and Percho lead us to if we follow them

percho
Sep 20th 2013, 08:56 PM
I do not believe God created death.

It is the devil, Satan who has the power of death.

When and how could Satan have acquired this power. I am not sure we are directly told that, in the word of God. I will give my guess and yes it is a guess. BTW yes, I believe there is a, "gap," between Genesis 1 and 2.

Let me ask a question concerning a verse or two.

For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. Hebrews 2:5 Would you agree that it is implied in that verse that the world to come, (the earth inhabited, I believe this means) will be different from this present world, with the implication being either presently and or at some point in past this world is in subjection to angelic beings? Is Eph. 6:12 relative to this? For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Eph 6:12 Do we not see the same in passages as in Daniel 10:10-13

When were these once angelic beings now demons given rule of the earth? It was God who, laid the foundations of the earth, and fastened them. Was the earth, Eden, the garden of God? Who shouted with joy when it was created? Who was the cherub that covered the throne, who was put in charge? Was it Lucifer, the son of the morning star? Do you think the omnipresent Spirit the God by choice was also present in his glory here on the earth with them.

When Lucifer sinned, tried to ascend to the throne of God in heaven and was cast back to the earth, do you think maybe God removed his glory and presence from the earth, leaving Satan with the power of death and darkness. Sheol maybe?


What plan will God come up with to destroy him who has the power of death, that is the devil? And reconcile all things unto himself?

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Col. 1:20

Noeb
Sep 20th 2013, 11:20 PM
Of course we know that the above is true of Jesus for He is God incarnate, right?What's that got to do with it?



But you did not say Jesus, you said a hypothetical person, ie if someone could live and not sin, there would be no death for Him.If Jesus had not (necessarily) laid down his life he would have been glorified, no? And Adam?

decrumpit
Sep 20th 2013, 11:23 PM
b. did He ordain to send His Son because of the fact that He ordained giving Adam a choice between life and death, and knew in His perfect foreknowledge that Adam would choose death and he and his descendants would need a Saviour.

Many of the answers you have given in this thread seem to indicate that you would hold to the former position (premise a), while I hold to the latter (premise b). So which is it, do you hold to b, even though many of the things you have said in this thread rather support A, or do you hold to premise a,. as your argument seems to indicate

It seems like you hold B, and that view doesn't conflict with Adam's pre-fall state.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are Supralapsarian, correct?

You believe that God knew that the fall would happen, and knew from eternity that he would have to send his son?

or do you believe that Adam was God's "Plan A" so to speak, and once Adam sinned God initiated "Plan B - Jesus". In other words, could Adam have continued indefinitely had he not sinned?


Never, never did you answer these...

I will answer them.

All can be answered by noting that Adam's sin caused a spiritual separation from God as well as physical death.

Noeb
Sep 20th 2013, 11:37 PM
Never, never did you answer these...We've been round and round all this in the sin nature threads.



Since you either cannot or will not answer these questions, I will let you off the hookNot on the hook



Why don't you at least answer this, since it is a very relevant question towards your position. Can you answer one question? You cannot say you have already answered it, for I have never asked you this before..

Choose a or b

a. Did God ordain and predestine man to sin and fall so that He could send His Son,

or

b. did He ordain to send His Son because of the fact that He ordained giving Adam a choice between life and death, and knew in His perfect foreknowledge that Adam would choose death and he and his descendants would need a Saviour. b



This is what I see you saying in your arguments

"Adam was mortal before the Fall because sin and death was a necessity for him and us to receive spiritual bodies"


This is the logical conclusion that the arguments that you and Percho lead us to if we follow themNot at all (for me - I can't speak for percho). Adam was made mortal because it pleased God to make him so, as scripture says. He would have been in a pickle if he made man eternal/spiritual/perfect first, contrary to scripture. He would not have been wise and all knowing, and would have shown himself to be some little g god at best. Adam was not re-tooled when he sinned. We've been through this. He didn't have the power. Satan doesn't have the power. The only one capable is God and not one verse indicates Adam was perfect then downgraded.

Noeb
Sep 20th 2013, 11:42 PM
I do not believe God created death.God created all. There is only one creator.



It is the devil, Satan who has the power of death.the ability to tempt is not the ability to create. Satan cannot create.

glad4mercy
Sep 20th 2013, 11:59 PM
God created all. There is only one creator.


the ability to tempt is not the ability to create. Satan cannot create.

When did God create death?

glad4mercy
Sep 21st 2013, 12:01 AM
We've been round and round all this in the sin nature threads.


Not on the hook


b


Not at all (for me - I can't speak for percho). Adam was made mortal because it pleased God to make him so, as scripture says. He would have been in a pickle if he made man eternal/spiritual/perfect first, contrary to scripture. He would not have been wise and all knowing, and would have shown himself to be some little g god at best. Adam was not re-tooled when he sinned. We've been through this. He didn't have the power. Satan doesn't have the power. The only one capable is God and not one verse indicates Adam was perfect then downgraded.


I'm glad we agree on b. We are in a good place here.

I still don't think Adam was mortal before the fall, because that would mean that he already had death in his members. Yet we can agree to disagree on this.

Have a good weekend.


We've been round and round all this in the sin nature threads.


Not on the hook


b


Not at all (for me - I can't speak for percho). Adam was made mortal because it pleased God to make him so, as scripture says. He would have been in a pickle if he made man eternal/spiritual/perfect first, contrary to scripture. He would not have been wise and all knowing, and would have shown himself to be some little g god at best. Adam was not re-tooled when he sinned. We've been through this. He didn't have the power. Satan doesn't have the power. The only one capable is God and not one verse indicates Adam was perfect then downgraded.


I'm glad we agree on b. We are in a good place here.

I still don't think Adam was mortal before the fall, because that would mean that he already had death in his members before he sinned. Yet we can agree to disagree on this.

Have a good weekend.

Noeb
Sep 21st 2013, 12:03 AM
When did God create death?Genesis 1:1
.

Noeb
Sep 21st 2013, 12:05 AM
I'm glad we agree on b. We are in a good place here.

I still don't think Adam was mortal before the fall, because that would mean that he already had death in his members. Yet we can agree to disagree on this.

Have a good weekend.
earthy corruptible man needed the tree of life

have a good one!

percho
Sep 21st 2013, 02:31 AM
God created all. There is only one creator.


the ability to tempt is not the ability to create. Satan cannot create.

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Ezek 28:15
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:15

When iniquity was found in him, he became separated from God and the power of death was with him through his ability to deceive unto lust and bring fourth sin. NO?

And Jehovah God planteth a garden in Eden, at the east, and He setteth there the man whom He hath formed; And Jehovah God taketh the man, and causeth him to rest in the garden of Eden, to serve it, and to keep it. And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat; and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' YLT Gen. 2:8,15-17

Was the deceiver, the one with the power of death already, "In The Garden"? Seeking whom he could destroy?

percho
Sep 21st 2013, 02:56 AM
earthy corruptible man needed the tree of life

have a good one!


I'm glad we agree on b. We are in a good place here.

I still don't think Adam was mortal before the fall, because that would mean that he already had death in his members. Yet we can agree to disagree on this.

Have a good weekend.




I'm glad we agree on b. We are in a good place here.

I still don't think Adam was mortal before the fall, because that would mean that he already had death in his members before he sinned. Yet we can agree to disagree on this.

Have a good weekend.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man (that which had been formed of the dust of the ground) became a living soul. Gen 2:7
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11 ---What do you think is in the blood that makes the flesh a living soul?
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; First part of John 3:6
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor. 15:50
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecc 12:7

Would for Adam to have eaten of the tree of life, have been construed as being born again?

Was he created of the earth, flesh and blood, mortal and corruptible needing to eat of the tree of life for immortality and being incorruptible?

Did the resurrection from the dead of Jesus bring to light, eternal life and incorruptibility, abolishing dying thou dost die appointed to man?

glad4mercy
Sep 21st 2013, 03:31 AM
Genesis 1:1
.

Did God create death before He created life, or do you believe in the gap theory. These are the only two possibilities that fit your paradigm

glad4mercy
Sep 21st 2013, 03:39 AM
earthy corruptible man needed the tree of life

have a good one!

The Bible does not say that man was created corruptible, Romans 8:21 says that corruption is bondage, and I do not think man or nature was in bondage before the fall. I guess we just disagree on this.

glad4mercy
Sep 21st 2013, 03:54 AM
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man (that which had been formed of the dust of the ground) became a living soul. Gen 2:7
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11 ---What do you think is in the blood that makes the flesh a living soul?
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; First part of John 3:6
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor. 15:50
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecc 12:7

Would for Adam to have eaten of the tree of life, have been construed as being born again?

Was he created of the earth, flesh and blood, mortal and corruptible needing to eat of the tree of life for immortality and being incorruptible?

Did the resurrection from the dead of Jesus bring to light, eternal life and incorruptibility, abolishing dying thou dost die appointed to man?

Read Romans 8:21. Was both man and nature in bondage before the fall.

Everything you are quoting refers to the corruption that entered the Kosmos after the fall, and God's grace that undoes the effects of the Fall, even bettering us in the end. This does not mean that man was in bondage to corruption and disease before sin brought the fall


And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man (that which had been formed of the dust of the ground) became a living soul. Gen 2:7
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11 ---What do you think is in the blood that makes the flesh a living soul?
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; First part of John 3:6
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor. 15:50
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecc 12:7

Would for Adam to have eaten of the tree of life, have been construed as being born again?

Was he created of the earth, flesh and blood, mortal and corruptible needing to eat of the tree of life for immortality and being incorruptible?

Did the resurrection from the dead of Jesus bring to light, eternal life and incorruptibility, abolishing dying thou dost die appointed to man?

Read Romans 8:21. Was both man and nature in bondage before the fall?

Everything you are quoting refers to the corruption that entered the Kosmos after the fall, and God's grace that undoes the effects of the Fall, even bettering us in the end. This does not mean that man was in bondage to corruption and disease before sin brought the fall

glad4mercy
Sep 21st 2013, 04:04 AM
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Ezek 28:15
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringebyth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:15

When iniquity was found in him, he became separated from God and the power of death was with him through his ability to deceive unto lust and bring fourth sin. NO?

And Jehovah God planteth a garden in Eden, at the east, and He setteth there the man whom He hath formed; And Jehovah God taketh the man, and causeth him to rest in the garden of Eden, to serve it, and to keep it. And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden eating though dost eat; and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' YLT Gen. 2:8,15-17

Was the deceiver, the one with the power of death already, "In The Garden"? Seeking whom he could destroy?

Satan had no power over man before the fall. ADAM willfully yielded his God given authority. Satan had no authority in the garden, just as he has no authority or power over believers except what we give him. Yet it is written that those who are still in Adam are taken captive by him at his will. This is one of the obvious effects of the fall that Christ has redeemed us from

glad4mercy
Sep 21st 2013, 04:13 AM
Noeb and Percho, the potential to disobey does not constitute death, just as the potential to believe does not constitute salvation. Adam had not yet sinned, so there was no death in him.

The sting of death is sin. Without sin, death is powerless, tree of life or no tree of life.

percho
Sep 21st 2013, 05:00 AM
earthy corruptible man needed the tree of life

have a good one!


Noeb and Percho, the potential to disobey does not constitute death, just as the potential to believe does not constitute salvation. Adam had not yet sinned, so there was no death in him.

The sting of death is sin. Without sin, death is powerless, tree of life or no tree of life.

Adam did exactly what God foreknew Adam would do therefore God Created Adam subject to death and corruption because God foreknew Adam was going to sin and bring death, both of which were already present on the earth in Satan, and was present prior to God saying let there be light, for it would be by God bringing forth a Son in the likeness of Adam to die the death, that God would destroy death and him who has the power of death by giving eternal life to that sinless Son who had been obedient unto the death.

The plan for the Christ to shed his blood, foreordained before it was said let there be light, required the death of Adam.

Free will is where lust comes from. With free will comes lust which brings forth sin which results in death. Satan had the power to deceive the will unto lust.

Noeb
Sep 21st 2013, 01:22 PM
Did God create death before He created life, or do you believe in the gap theory. These are the only two possibilities that fit your paradigmHardly. Why would death have to be created before life? Death is not 'some thing' to be created. He created all. Some 'gap' has nothing to do with the beginning. This is why it's nearly impossible for us to have a discussion. Our views are so different, what's the only two possibilities to you don't even exist to me.

Noeb
Sep 21st 2013, 01:30 PM
The Bible does not say that man was created corruptible, Romans 8:21 says that corruption is bondage, and I do not think man or nature was in bondage before the fall. I guess we just disagree on this.It says "bondage of corruption", it does not say corruption is bondage (God said it is very good). You can read and understand that right? It's so simple. Before 'separation' from God, creation had Grace to answer corruption. Corruption was not bondage with God. It's the same with why man sins. The exclusion of God, lack of relationship and fellowship, the lack of restraint, is why we sin so, not because of some fantasy sci-fi view of some thing being created to live inside us. Look at Ezekiel.....the tree of life and river heals the people and the land. Take those away and.....?

glad4mercy
Sep 22nd 2013, 02:36 AM
It says "bondage of corruption", it does not say corruption is bondage (God said it is very good). You can read and understand that right? It's so simple. Before 'separation' from God, creation had Grace to answer corruption. Corruption was not bondage with God. It's the same with why man sins. The exclusion of God, lack of relationship and fellowship, the lack of restraint, is why we sin so, not because of some fantasy sci-fi view of some thing being created to live inside us. Look at Ezekiel.....the tree of life and river heals the people and the land. Take those away and.....?


So which part of corruption is not bondage?

Romans 7 7 says that the creaetion will be delivered from the bondage of corruption. Will the new creation be fully incorruptible, or only partially incorruptible? Will there be death and mortality there,? But wait, there are trees in the new creation as well, so much for the presence of trees proving that there was disease and death in the prefall garden. There is no scriptural warrant for the existence of disease and death in the garden whatsiever.
Paul was not writing sci fi when he wrote Romans 7. You ignore or dont understand what Paul talks about in romans 7:17, (it is no longer I who do it but sin that dwells in me), Romans 7:21 " evil is present with me), Romans 7: 23 (I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind), Romans 7:24 ( who will deliver me from the body of this death) apparently you think the body of death existed before the fall. ROMANS 8:3- Jesus by His death condemned sin in the flesh. ROMANS 7:14 sold under sin, Romans 7:14 the law of sin in my members,sin produces evil desire (Romans 7:8), etc.

1John 1:8 says that if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. This is not talking about acts of sin, which are addresses in verse 10, tthis is talking about the law of sin in our members that needs to be condemned and put to death by the work of Christ. (Romans 8:3) you are actually bold enough to deny the very existence of sin, you agree that acts of disobedience are sinful and in the existence of acts of sin, but you deny the existence of what the Bible calls sin.

We've been through this before. If there is no presence of sin in the heart, what need of heart purification and heart cleansing? Purifying their hearts by faith, crete in me a clean heart, blessed are the pure in heart, etc. Before we were saved, we were brought into captivity by the law of sin and the lusts that war in our members, but God sets us free by purifying and cleansing our hearts

Now you will say that Adam fell through lust as well, but he was not created with evil concupiscence in his heart, nor was his heart unclean until he entertained the temptation of the devil. Yet you will say that the same is true of all men, but this is a denial of the fact that as soon as the commandment comes, sin revives and we died ( romans 7:9). It does not say that sin began to exist in Paul when the commandment came, it says it revived, meaning it was already present in a latent state. Yet this was not true of Adam, for if sin had already been present in him, just in an inactive state, being revived by the commandment, if you say this, you make God the author of sin, and this is not good theology

As it is written, in Jesus there is no sin, not only no acts of sin, but no corruption of heart whatsoever. As it is written out of the heart proceed murders, fornications, etc,

glad4mercy
Sep 22nd 2013, 02:59 AM
Hardly. Why would death have to be created before life? Death is not 'some thing' to be created. He created all. Some 'gap' has nothing to do with the beginning. This is why it's nearly impossible for us to have a discussion. Our views are so different, what's the only two possibilities to you don't even exist to me.

You insinuated that God creared death, and I asked you when He created death, you said in Gen 1:1, which made my jaw drop. The reason why it is hard for us to have a discussion is that you say things like that that lead you to dead ends, and then when you get to the ded end, you completely change horses in mid stream. In on post you claimed that God created death, (post90) and now you say the exact opposite. You are contradicting yourself, that is the problem. The reason you keep contradicting youself is because you have bought into an unsound theology, (Pelagianism), but the fact that you either do not fully understand the ramifications of that system, or because you have not fully bought in causes you to contradict yourseves, as the faulty system cracks under the weight of inspection. The fault is with the presuppositions that color your interpretations of the Bible. We all have them to some degree, but our presuppositions must be ruthlessly examined by God's Word, or else we will be led captive by them (our presuppostions)

Now that you deny the silly premise that death existed before life, ( a clear truth) and the gap theory, how is it that God created death in Genesis 1:1, when He did not create physical life until the third day. This can only be true if the gap theory is true, which I do not hold to

Noeb
Sep 22nd 2013, 05:10 AM
So which part of corruption is not bondage?when man had relationship and fellowship with God.



Paul was not writing sci fi when he wrote Romans 7.Sin as a Noun here is a concept or idea, not a thing.



As it is written, in Jesus there is no sin, not only no acts of sin, but no corruption of heart whatsoever.He could find nothing in Jesus because Jesus never sinned. Sin is not a thing. Until you get this we have very little we can discuss. I'm not into sci-fi. Sorry.

Noeb
Sep 22nd 2013, 05:21 AM
You insinuated that God creared death, and I asked you when He created death, you said in Gen 1:1, which made my jaw drop. The reason why it is hard for us to have a discussion is that you say things like that that lead you to dead ends, and then when you get to the ded end, you completely change horses in mid stream.No, you just have no idea what I am talking about.



Now that you deny the silly premise that death existed before life, ( a clear truth) and the gap theory,I did not deny a gap but I do not subscribe to any specific theory. I merely pointed out it doesn't matter here in our discussion. You want it too because you think it can discredit me, but it cannot. Young earthers are a dying breed.



how is it that God created death in Genesis 1:1, when He did not create physical life until the third day.He created the universe in verse one.



This can only be true if the gap theory is true, which I do not hold toA gap exist for many reasons. Since you are a young earther I won't hold it against you but we won't find much agreement here, if any.

eyes2c
Sep 22nd 2013, 10:03 AM
As I understand it...death came into the world through disobedience toward God's command. That does not mean that death did not exist beforehand when you consider the serpent in the garden and his craftiness. It is obvious that this serpent had already fallen otherwise he would not be tempting Eve. This temptation clearly showed the serpents disobedience toward God by the way he twisted God's command suggesting to Eve that they would not really die but rather be more like God knowing good from evil.

Noeb
Sep 22nd 2013, 04:15 PM
As I understand it...death came into the world through disobedience toward God's command. That does not mean that death did not exist beforehand when you consider the serpent in the garden and his craftiness. It is obvious that this serpent had already fallen otherwise he would not be tempting Eve. This temptation clearly showed the serpents disobedience toward God by the way he twisted God's command suggesting to Eve that they would not really die but rather be more like God knowing good from evil.Correct. If "sin entered into the world, and death by sin" meant what people think then it would be because of the serpent. Since scripture says it was because of man these people need to renew their mind to the truth scripture is teaching.

glad4mercy
Sep 22nd 2013, 11:47 PM
Correct. If "sin entered into the world, and death by sin" meant what people think then it would be because of the serpent. Since scripture says it was because of man these people need to renew their mind to the truth scripture is teaching.

So an animal brought sin and death into the world?

Dominion was given to man, not animals

We die because of adam's sin, not because of the serpents.

The scripture says " by one man sin entered the world and death by sin, (Romans 5:12)
not by one serpent.

For by one man's offence, death reigned through the one (Romans 5:17


The earth would have not fallen to the curse because of a serpents sin, for it was man who was given dominion over the earth, not beasts or creeping things

Man was the one created in the image of God, not beasts or creeping things

Sin entered the garden through satan, yes. But satan's transgression did not bring the curse. It was man's sin alone that brought the curse


You should consider these elementary truths, before you insinuate that people who disagree with you have unrenewed minds.

Romans 5 makes it very clear how sin and death entered the world

Satan entered the garden, but was a trespasser who Adam should have cast out. Instead, Adam gave satan the keys, and sold himself and his descendants into slavery. Thanks be to God that Jesus came to redeem us from that slavery and bonfage to sin, death, and fallen spirits.

This is what tje Bible teaches...

glad4mercy
Sep 23rd 2013, 12:16 AM
Genesis 1:1
.

[QUOTE=Noeb;3050830]when man had relationship and fellowship with God.


Sin as a Noun here is a concept or idea, not a thing.


He could find nothing in Jesus because Jesus never sinned. Sin is not a thing. Until you get this we have very little we can discuss. I'm not into sci-fi. Sorry.[/QUOT

The question was what kind of corruption that man and the Kosmos experiece in the present is not bondage. The bondage of corruption in Romans 8 is referring to this present age.

There is no scriptural evidence that corruption existed in the kosmos before the fall. You come to that conclusion probably because you want to try to reconcile the Bible with the appearance of things, yet the Bible needs no such reconciliation

glad4mercy
Sep 23rd 2013, 12:33 AM
Genesis 1:1
.


No, you just have no idea what I am talking about.


I did not deny a gap but I do not subscribe to any specific theory. I merely pointed out it doesn't matter here in our discussion. You want it too because you think it can discredit me, but it cannot. Young earthers are a dying breed.


He created the universe in verse one.


A gap exist for many reasons. Since you are a young earther I won't hold it against you but we won't find much agreement here, if any.

You said that God created death in Gen 1:1 in post 90. Nothing to misunderstand there

I never promoted young earth in this thread, I asked you a question, because you said God created death in Gen 1:1, which is before the third day when He created vegetation, it is before the fifth day when he created birds and sea creatures, and before the sixth day when He created land animals and man. So if God created death before He created physical life, what was dying?

Unless you hold to the gap theory, extraterestrial physical life that existed before the earth, or the mortality of angel

You said in post 90 that God created death. Is this what you hold, or did you err in typing

You said God created death in Gen 1:1. Do you still wish to assert that?

You said if a person could live and not sin, there would be no death for him, yet you also said that death is a result of being seperated from the tree of life. These two statements clearly contradict, seeing there is no tree of life for this theoretical person to eat from. How can there be no death for your theoretical man if there is no tree of life?


You are making statements haphazardly and willy nilly. Could this be because you have adopted a position without really thinking through and understanding it's ramifications

I am neither old earth or young earth. The Bible does not give a definitive answer on this question. Both positions s require extapolation and speculation, and I am not dogmatic about anything except the clear teachins of scripture

So do you think God created death in Genesis 1:1 or not? You said you did earlier. Yet you said that if no sin, no death (you said if a man lived and did not sin, there would be no death in him). Does it not follow that if you hold these propositions, and then say God created death before He created life on eart, that the only way this is possible is for there to have been an earlier earth age. I do not say I hold to this, I asked if you do.

Perhaps you are passing on doctrine that was promoted by gap theory holders, and do not realize it. Maybe you should get a little deeper into whatever sources you get your doctrine from. It clearly is not the Bible that says death already existed in Gen 1:1. The first occasion of death recorded in the Bible is much later. Same is true of disease

Jade99
Sep 23rd 2013, 08:12 PM
I think the animals were all herbivores until the fall as well. I agree with you.



I'm pretty much a ravening, meat eating carnivore, so we balance each other out. ;)



Yes, not only did the Fall bring death it also brought disease, sickness, birth defects, and the cataclysms of nature as we know them to both man and beast.

When Christ returns, not only will we have new bodies, but there will be a new heavens and a new earth. I may be wrong, but I see some similarities between the resurrection of our bodies and the destruction of the present Kosmos followed by a new creation, where all things are new. We can only imagine how beautiful and awesome it will be. No more sin, death, disease, decay, war, famine, or any other thing caused by the Fall. Jesus said "Behold, I make all things new"

I can't wait. I look forward to my new body, especially now that I got this annoying leg cramp and this is allergy season and no more periods. Yay!!!!!!

Jade99
Sep 23rd 2013, 08:26 PM
It says "bondage of corruption", it does not say corruption is bondage (God said it is very good). You can read and understand that right? It's so simple. Before 'separation' from God, creation had Grace to answer corruption. Corruption was not bondage with God. It's the same with why man sins. The exclusion of God, lack of relationship and fellowship, the lack of restraint, is why we sin so, not because of some fantasy sci-fi view of some thing being created to live inside us. Look at Ezekiel.....the tree of life and river heals the people and the land. Take those away and.....?

Actually, we sin because we were born from a sinful nature that was inherited from Adam's sin. If people don't have a relationship or fellowship with God, that's because they chose not to.

Oh and corruption came into the world, the same time that sin did.

Jade99
Sep 23rd 2013, 08:37 PM
I am saying that death existed before Adam sinned and brought death to man. Adam was created of the elements, corruptible, needing an outside source for life. He was not created with life in himself as his creator has in himself.

It was foreordained upon obedience for the Son of God to be given life in himself as his Father has life in himself. John 5:26

Jesus the Son of God was born of woman of corruptible flesh. He learned obedience from the things he suffered and was made perfect and incorruptible by being raised from the dead by Spirit the God.
Romans 6:9 Acts 13:34 Hebrews 5:7-9

Yeah death did exist, but not in the way you think. The warning in Genesis 2, was that they will surely die if they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The death here meant spiritual death, which meant they were spiritually separated from God, hence the reason why we are born spiritually separated from God. We all got punished as a result.

I think you went way over the rainbow when it comes to Adam. Adam was made in the image of God, just like all humans are. He was the prototype, so to speak. Adam and Eve didn't need to be born, because God breathe life into Adam and he became a living soul; then Eve was created from Adam's rib. That does not equate that they were born corruptable, quite the contrary, they were born perfect. Adam was giving dominion over the earth and they were free as a bird, they just could not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and when that happened, that showed that they were disobedient to God and their eyes became opened; because they were aware they had disobeyed God which is a sin. So once Adam took that bite, that's when sin and disease and corruption came in but the main common denominator is sin. The wages of sin is death. When sin entered into the world, then humans died a physical death.

glad4mercy
Sep 23rd 2013, 10:59 PM
Actually, we sin because we were born from a sinful nature that was inherited from Adam's sin. If people don't have a relationship or fellowship with God, that's because they chose not to.

Oh and corruption came into the world, the same time that sin did.

I agree, but Noeb will not because he has bought into much of what Pelagianism teaches and he thinks that everyone who is not a Pelagian is a full fledged Augustinian.

Noeb is probably going to tell you what he tried to tell me, that there is not such thing as a sin nature, but we know better having read and understood Romans 5-8, (especially chapter 7) among other passages.

Some wrongly think that when we say that we have a sin nature, it is making excuses for our sins, but nothing could be further from the truth. The statement that our nature is fallen and sinful is important for one reason...because we realize we are in need of radical grace to be set free. Pelagianism believes man is already free without radical grace.

By radical, I means that the grace goes to the root or source of the sin. Pelagianism denies that there is a root or source of sin, and thinks that sin is nothing more than an idea or concept, denying the concept of indwelling sin, which Paul spoke of so clearly in Romans 7.

It was not an idea or concept that had us in bondage, ( described in Romans 7), nor was it an idea or concept that Christ came to cleanse us from or set us free from.

Noeb, The root or source of sin is the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2), which operates in our members and takes us captive (Romans 7:23), until the Law of the Spirit of life sets us free from the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2). Very simple.

...and no, the Law of sin and death is not the Mosaic Law...

Noeb
Sep 24th 2013, 12:23 AM
So an animal brought sin and death into the world?lol



Dominion was given to man, not animals

We die because of adam's sin, not because of the serpents.that's what I said and was my point

sin is not 'a thing' running around because if it were it would have come from satan not man.

Stan53
Sep 24th 2013, 01:41 AM
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. (Ro. 5:12)

I hear many people say that there was no death period until Adam sinned.

Was not death a necessary part of nature even before sin? I don't mean that death was a part of human life, but in the animal and plant kingdoms, death is necessary for many species - for example, carnivores. If that's the case, what did God intend for many carnivorous mammals, reptiles, fish, and insects to eat without resulting in the death of another animal? Even plants must have died from omnivores - root vegetables such as carrot must be killed to be eaten. Plus, certain plants such as the tumbleweed rely on death to reproduce.

I think there is a misunderstanding when people think of the Fall. When Adam sinned, I do not believe the laws of nature were changed except for humans.




There were no carnivores or omnivores before original sin. Every creature was a vegetarian/herbivore.

Gen 1:29-30
Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

Humans were to eat from what God provided as per verse 29 and animals were to eat as per verse 30. Only man ate from the Tree of Life, so plants and animals went through the life and death cycle.

There are no Laws of Nature. ALL laws in the universe, are of God.

glad4mercy
Sep 24th 2013, 06:05 PM
lol


that's what I said and was my point

sin is not 'a thing' running around because if it were it would have come from satan not man.

Why are you laughing? Look at post 107 and read what you agreed with.

You agreed with this...


death came into the world through disobedience toward God's command. That does not mean that death did not exist beforehand when you consider the serpent in the garden and his craftiness. It is obvious that this serpent had already fallen otherwise he would not be tempting Eve.

The statement above assumes that death existed before the Fall of man, and assumes the presence of the serpent proves this. You agreed, but I disagree for the reasons outlined below.

There is no mention of human or animal death before the Fall. The presence of the serpent in the garden does not prove that physical death existed, it just proves that spiritual death existed. The devil is not physically dead, I dont' think that he is even a physical being, but he is spiritually dead as a hammer. The serpent was not physically dead either. Sp the presence of the serpent does not prove physical death. BTW, physical death was passed on to the animal kingdom by man's sin, not the serpents. Adam was given dominion over the earth, and when he fell the whole earth fell with him, including his descendants. This is where corruption, disease, and death came from

First the fallen angels disobeyed, then man

angels brought sin into the angelic realm, man brought sin into the earth.

As far as indwelling sin that needs to be destroyed and cleansed by the work of God, consider the following verses...

Romans 7:20- Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romams 7:21- 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Romans 7:23- But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members

Romans 8:3- For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 6:6- 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

(ote: The body of sin does not refer to the physical body, for our physical bodies are not destroyed until we die, and it says that the destruction of the body of sin has the effect that we "henceforth do not serve sin". The body of sin has already been destroyed, (katargeo- to deprive of force or power), in Christians, but we need to reckon it so. The body of sin in Romans 6:6 is speaking of the indwelling sin that you claim does not exist.

More later

glad4mercy
Sep 24th 2013, 09:06 PM
Adam did exactly what God foreknew Adam would do therefore God Created Adam subject to death and corruption because God foreknew Adam was going to sin and bring death,

Agreed. God foreknew but did not cause sin and death. God gave man a choice, even knowing what it would lead to, and foreordained the great salvation in Christ.


both of which were already present on the earth in Satan,

Sin was not present in man, and death was not present in man either. NO mention of death in animals before the fall either. Like I said, if you assume there was, you are doing so on an extra biblical assumption.


and was present prior to God saying let there be light,

So you do believe in the gap theory. Otherwise, there was no physical life to die before God said "let there be light" since the Bible says God began to create physical life on the third day, animal life on the fifth, and man was made on the sixth. How can you say there was physical death before the First day?


The plan for the Christ to shed his blood, foreordained before it was said let there be light, required the death of Adam.


If you believe that the death of Adam was required, then you believe God willed and caused the fall. You seem to think that God caused man to fall so He could send His Son as a Saviour. I believe that God gave man a choice, knew that man would choose death, and at the same time lovingly foreordained Jesus to be the Lamb of God sacrificed for the sins of the world. All of this was present in the mind of God from all eternity, for God does not learn or change, but His knowledge and decrees are unchanging.


Free will is where lust comes from.

Absolutely not. God gave man free will, and at the same time God does not tempt any man. If you want to know where lust and sin came from, it came from unbelief. Eve did not lust for the fruit until she believed the lie, "you shall not surely die."

The most direct cause of the fall of man was unbelief.


With free will comes lust

Free will did not produce lust. Believing the lie did.

God does not tempt any man.

God's will is absolutely free, and He is not tempted by any sinful lust.


Satan had the power to deceive the will unto lust.

Satan had no power over Adam and Eve except what they themselves gave him. Adam had dominion over the earth, and should have kicked the devil out, but he didnt because of unbelief.

Noeb
Sep 25th 2013, 03:28 AM
Why are you laughing?That anyone would think anyone would think "an animal brought sin and death into the world?" is very funny.



Look at post 107 and read what you agreed with.

You agreed with this...
death came into the world through disobedience toward God's command. That does not mean that death did not exist beforehand when you consider the serpent in the garden and his craftiness. It is obvious that this serpent had already fallen otherwise he would not be tempting Eve.

The statement above assumes that death existed before the Fall of man,Of course. Man needed the tree of life to escape corruption and man and animals had blood. I suggest you step back and think this all the way through.



You agreed, but I disagree for the reasons outlined below.

There is no mention of human or animal death before the Fall.Dude! 'You are corruptible and will die without the tree of life.' Not saying it again.



The presence of the serpent in the garden does not prove that physical death existed, it just proves that spiritual death existed.Separation from God is not a thing that it can exist.



The devil is not physically dead, I dont' think that he is even a physical beingHow can we have a real conversation if things aren't real?



The body of sin does not refer to the physical body,.....
The body of sin in Romans 6:6 is speaking of the indwelling sin that you claim does not exist.How can we have a real conversation if things aren't real? This gets crazier with every post. I would say stop while you are ahead but you're not. You just counted the work of The Cross null.

Noeb
Sep 25th 2013, 03:40 AM
How can you say there was physical death before the First day?What lived under water in the dark? NOTHING!!!!!:idea:

Stan53
Sep 25th 2013, 03:44 AM
Man needed the tree of life to escape corruption and man and animals had blood.
'You are corruptible and will die without the tree of life.'



The TOL was to maintain LIFE, not to escape corruption. The TOKOGAE is what caused man to become corrupt, which is why God told him NOT to eat from it.

Paul tells us we will be made incorruptible when Christ returns, but notice the TOL is is the New Jerusalem in Rev 22:2 and the leaves will be for the healing of the nations. Seems God's way never changes. He started with the TOL and it continues for Eternity.

Stan53
Sep 25th 2013, 03:59 AM
What lived under water in the dark? NOTHING!!!!!:idea:

The OP is not about the gap theory or YEC people.

Noeb
Sep 25th 2013, 04:04 AM
The TOL was to maintain LIFE, not to escape corruption.Same difference.



Paul tells us we will be made incorruptible when Christ returns, but notice the TOL is is the New Jerusalem in Rev 22:2 and the leaves will be for the healing of the nations. Seems God's way never changes. He started with the TOL and it continues for Eternity.glorified individuals without blood do not need the tree of life.


The OP is not about the gap theory or YEC people.k.....it's about "Pre-Fall Death". So....

"What lived under water in the dark? NOTHING!!!!!?

Stan53
Sep 25th 2013, 05:00 AM
Same difference.

Only in your mind.



glorified individuals without blood do not need the tree of life.

So? Do you have a point?



k.....it's about "Pre-Fall Death". So....


So stick to the OP.

glad4mercy
Sep 25th 2013, 05:43 AM
What lived under water in the dark? NOTHING!!!!!:idea:

If nothing lived, then nothing died. How does this reply show that death was in the world before physical life was created? Nonexistence does not mean death. You do know what death means, right?

Dead as an adjective can mean absence of life, but death Is a noun, and means the cessation of life. A non existent thing does not die, except in fiction

You know that death did not exist in the physical world in Gen 1:1. The only way that is possible is if you hold to the gap theory. So did you speak amiss in post 90, or do you believe in the gap theory, or are you just doing the tap dance of compartmentalization.

glad4mercy
Sep 25th 2013, 06:09 AM
That anyone would think anyone would think "an animal brought sin and death into the world?" is very funny.


Of course. Man needed the tree of life to escape corruption and man and animals had blood. I suggest you step back and think this all the way through.


Dude! 'You are corruptible and will die without the tree of life.' Not saying it again.


Separation from God is not a thing that it can exist.


How can we have a real conversation if things aren't real?


How can we have a real conversation if things aren't real? This gets crazier with every post. I would say stop while you are ahead but you're not. You just counted the work of The Cross null.


If spiritual death/seperation from God is not real, than neither is physical death which is nothing more than the seperation of the spirit from the body. Death , whether physical or spiritual is a thing because it is an event, and iy is also a state.

!Paul said "sin revived and I died

Your denial of sin and death as existences comes from your Pelagian influences, Pelagianism which says in effect " we were never in bondage, how sayest thou you shall be made free"

Now you think satan has a physical body and i composed of matter. Ok

I nullified the cross of Christ by quoting Paul, and saying that the death of Christ
Destroys the dominion and power of sin in those who believe? I' m sorry you disagree with this essential Christian doctrine. So what do you think? We're still in bondage to the body of sin, or that deliverence did not come via the cross?

I will not die if Christ comes first. Also, mortality after the fall does not prove mortality before the fall, especially when the Bible clearly teaches that mortality is a result from the fall.

How does my mortality prove man was mortal in his original state? I also have bad eyes, bad feet, and bad breath. Does that prove Adam did as well before the fall

Noeb
Sep 25th 2013, 04:31 PM
If nothing lived, then nothing died.exactly! What was in the beginning died. The grass was brought forth -made, not created. It was created in the beginning then died under water and darkness.



If spiritual death/seperation from God is not realnot real? How is an incident and state real? Where is it? Where would I find these things?



Death , whether physical or spiritual is a thing because it is an eventit's no wonder you are so confused, holding private definitions



Your denial of sin and death as existences comes from your Pelagian influenceslol, what would those be? The bible. It's called language. An incident is not a thing. Sorry. You can't change language and invent your own definitions. Well, you can and have but we don't believe you.



Pelagianism which says in effect " we were never in bondage, how sayest thou you shall be made free"another absurdity that proves you don't know what pelagianism is.



Now you think satan has a physical body and i composed of matter. Okmost do yes of course



I nullified the cross of Christ by quoting Paulpeople quote Paul as saying he died daily to sin, but he said no such thing. He also did not say the body of sin is a principle. You made that up in an attempt to justify your strange beliefs.



and saying that the death of Christ
Destroys the dominion and power of sin in those who believe? I' m sorry you disagree with this essential Christian doctrine. who said i disagree? you? You have not comprehended one post I have made, and how could you, having your private definitions?



Also, mortality after the fall does not prove mortality before the fallthe natural came first



How does my mortality prove man was mortal in his original state?the natural came first, oh I think I said I wasn't going to say this again.



I also have bad eyes, bad feet, and bad breath. Does that prove Adam did as well before the fallhe had the ToL, oh, I said I wasn't saying that again.

We're done.

glad4mercy
Sep 25th 2013, 07:12 PM
Noeb, regarding the natural first...

I gave you the definitions for "real" and "thing".

You should look up the word "natural" in the dictionary, then we can discuss whether death is actually natural.

nat·u·ral
ˈnaCHərəl/
adjective
adjective: natural


1.
existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind

Now we would say that that which is natural is not caused by nature, but rather by God. Natural is the way things were created to be.

Question: Was death caused by God or man? Hint: Read Romans 5:12

If death was caused by man's sin, as Romans 5:12 states, then death was not a part of the natural order before the Fall, but only entered after the Fall.

glad4mercy
Sep 25th 2013, 07:32 PM
Private definitions. LOL

Some definitions for Noeb...

Definitions for Noeb

re·al1


/ˈrē(ə)l/


adjective

adjective: real; comparative adjective: realer; superlative adjective: realest



1. actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed.



1re·al
adjective \ˈrē(-ə)l\

: actually existing or happening : not imaginary: not fake, false, or artificial

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/real (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/real)



Syllabification: (re·al)

Pronunciation: /ˈrē(ə)l/


1actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed: Oxford dictionary.

So now you think sin and death is imaginary. Been reading Mary Baker Eddy lately?

glad4mercy
Sep 25th 2013, 07:39 PM
people quote Paul as saying he died daily to sin, but he said no such thing. He also did not say the body of sin is a principle. You made that up in an attempt to justify your strange beliefs.



What is the body of sin Paul refers to in Romans 6:6, Noeb?


people quote Paul as saying he died daily to sin, but he said no such thing. He also did not say the body of sin is a principle. You made that up in an attempt to justify your strange beliefs.



What is the body of sin Paul refers to in Romans 6:6, Noeb?

percho
Sep 25th 2013, 08:31 PM
I will try one more time and then I will cry, U N C L E.

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Romans 5:14

What is man, ( The first man, Adam) that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. Hebrews 2:6,7,8 And the last part of 8: But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Adam was the figure of the one to come. I assume that one was Jesus???

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death. Foreordained I might add before the first man Adam was created.

Adam was created for death and corruption and did exactly what he was created for, lusted for, sinned, and brought death.

Adam per say wasn't created to inherit all things but through him and the woman taken from him a man would be born, the Son of the living God through whom and for whom all things were created. That is the Son, Man who God made heir of all things.

Has that Man the Son of God inherited all things. If your answer is no, then when will he inherit all things? If your answer is yes, when did he inherit all things? In Hebrews 1 we are told that by inheritance he has obtained a name more excellent than the angels. When did he obtain by inheritance that name and what is that name?

BTW I believe these answers are directly related to the OP.

What was already present on the earth for witch all things were brought forth for the purpose of destroying that witch was already present?

glad4mercy
Sep 25th 2013, 09:20 PM
Adam was created for death and corruption and did exactly what he was created for, lusted for, sinned, and brought death.


Don't cry uncle yet. Do you realize that in saying this, you are making God the author of sin, and saying that the Fall was not only permitted by God it was caused and decreed by God

You seem to say that God caused Adam to sin so He could send a Saviour.

I do not hold to this view. Here is what I believe, and even Noeb agreed with me on this. (at least most of it.)

a. God gave Adam a choice between life and death
b. God knew that Adam would sin.
c. Yet God's foreknowledge of sin and the fall did not cause sin and the Fall.
d. God permitted the Fall, not caused it.
e. God, knowing that man would sin and die, predestinated His Son to be the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

Do you not agree with points a-e.

IF you don't agree with these points, we will never agree because this is foundational.

percho
Sep 26th 2013, 04:25 AM
Don't cry uncle yet. Do you realize that in saying this, you are making God the author of sin, and saying that the Fall was not only permitted by God it was caused and decreed by God

You seem to say that God caused Adam to sin so He could send a Saviour.

I do not hold to this view. Here is what I believe, and even Noeb agreed with me on this. (at least most of it.)

a. God gave Adam a choice between life and death
b. God knew that Adam would sin.
c. Yet God's foreknowledge of sin and the fall did not cause sin and the Fall.
d. God permitted the Fall, not caused it.
e. God, knowing that man would sin and die, predestinated His Son to be the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

Do you not agree with points a-e.

IF you don't agree with these points, we will never agree because this is foundational.

I am saying before it was said, "let there be light," Satan, sin and death were already on the earth, it was already foreordained for God to send his Son, for death, the promise of hope of eternal life was already made for that Son. John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; Romans 6:9, Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. He has been quickened with incorruptible eternal life. --Speaking of Christ, Son resurrected -- 1 Cor. 15:45,46 the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 2 Tim 10 Darby translation but has been made manifest now by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who has annulled death, (by being resurrected from the dead with eternal life) and brought to light life and incorruptibility by the glad tidings;

Choice? How many men have been born since Adam was created. How many by their choice have been righteous before God, that is without sin? Why do all choose to sin and fall short of the glory of God.

Satan was here waiting on Adam when he arrived. God had a plan for destroying him who had the power of death.

glad4mercy
Sep 26th 2013, 06:20 PM
I am saying before it was said, "let there be light," Satan, sin and death were already on the earth,.

Let there be light is in Genesis 1:3, satan is not mentioned until chapter 3 and death is not mentioned until day six when man is created. Your Chronology is out of whack. ( unless you believe in the gap theory, ie a gap between Gen 1:1 and 1:2)

Do you?


it was already foreordained for God to send his Son, for death,

Yes, because God foreknew that man would fall, not because He made him already fallen.


Choice? How many men have been born since Adam was created. How many by their choice have been righteous before God, that is without sin? Why do all choose to sin and fall short of the glory of God.


Because of the Fall. Adam had a choice before he fell. If you believe that Adam did not have a choice before the fall, then you believe that God created man already fallen and sinful, but this is not the case. God is not the author of sin, fallen angels and man are, and it is sin that brought death into the world according to Romans 5:12.


Satan was here waiting on Adam when he arrived. God had a plan for destroying him who had the power of death.

You actually think God needed man to destroy satan? God needs no one to fulfill His purposes. If he does use us, it is out of Grace, not need or necessity.

God created man and gave him a choice.

God knew that man would choose death

God's foreknowledge of sin did not cause sin.

God did not allow man to sin so He could send His Son to be crucified, He sent His Son to be crucified because He already knew, ( from all eternity) that man would sin.


I am saying before it was said, "let there be light," Satan, sin and death were already on the earth,.

Let there be light is in Genesis 1:3, satan is not mentioned until chapter 3 and death is not mentioned until day six when man is created. Your Chronology is out of whack. ( unless you believe in the gap theory, ie a gap between Gen 1:1 and 1:2)

Do you?


it was already foreordained for God to send his Son, for death,

Yes, because God foreknew that man would fall, not because He made him already fallen.


Choice? How many men have been born since Adam was created. How many by their choice have been righteous before God, that is without sin? Why do all choose to sin and fall short of the glory of God.


Because of the Fall. Adam had a choice before he fell. If you believe that Adam did not have a choice before the fall, then you believe that God created man already fallen and sinful, but this is not the case. God is not the author of sin, fallen angels and man are, and it is sin that brought death into the world according to Romans 5:12.


Satan was here waiting on Adam when he arrived. God had a plan for destroying him who had the power of death.

You actually think God needed man to destroy satan? God needs no one to fulfill His purposes. If he does use us, it is out of Grace, not need or necessity.

God created man and gave him a choice.

God knew that man would choose death

God's foreknowledge of sin did not cause sin.

God did not allow man to sin so He could send His Son to be crucified, He sent His Son to be crucified because He already knew, ( from all eternity) that man would sin.

glad4mercy
Sep 26th 2013, 06:54 PM
. Separation from God is not a thing that it can exist
.


Seperation from God does not exist? You say that death, sin, and seperationfrom God do not exist/are not real because (you claim) they are not thingsApparently you don't know what the verb "exist" means, as well as notknowing what the adjective "real" means.




Definition of existence.
a:to have real being whether material or spiritual <did unicornsexist><the largest galaxy known to exist>

b: to have being in a specified place or with respect to understood limitationsor conditions <strange ideas existed in his mind>

2: to continue to be <racism still exists insociety>

3a: to have life or the functions of vitality <we cannot exist withoutoxygen>

b: to live at an inferior level or under adverse circumstances <the hungryexisting from day to day You say sin and death do not exist becausethey are not things. Yet the dictionary above uses the word "racism"(racism exists today), and also ideas exist. (see definition 1b)
ex·ist (g-zst)
intr.v.ex·ist·ed, ex·ist·ing, ex·ists



1. To have actual being; be real.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exist?show=0&t=1380225478

5.To be present under certain circumstances or in a specified place; occur: "
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/exist (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/exist)definition 5


So to exist is to be real. see below also
How do we define real?
Real- Being or occurring in fact oractuality; having verifiable existence:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/real
Also, not only do things exist, but so dothings that occur in the present. (definition 5 above)

5. Exjst- To be presentunder certain circumstances or in a specified place; occur: "
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/exist (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/exist)definition 5



Existence can also be defined as reality as opposed to appearance
(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/existence)

Is Sin, death, and seperation from God a reality, Noeb?
Existence continued...

3actual or present occurrence <existence of a stateof war> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/existence
You said that occurances do not exist. Themeaning of the word exist disagrees with you.

Notice the words actual or present occurance. Existence can also be a present occurrance. Does sin and deathpresently occur in our world? If so, by definition they exist.

IFyou do not believe sin and death exist, then you do not believe that theyactuallyoccur,according to definition 3 above.
Existence- the fact or state of living or having objective reality http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/def...lish/existence (http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/existence)

Can an event be a reality? Let's see...


an event[/FONT], that is actual:"the weight of history and political realities" (Benno C. Schmidt,Jr.)http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reality (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reality)

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/

] 3. The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence.http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reality (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reality)

Is sin an actuality?

Actuality-ac·tu·al·i·ty (kch-l-t)
n. pl.ac·tu·al·i·ties
1. The state or fact of being actual; Reality. See Synonyms atexistence.
2. Actual conditions or facts. Often used in theplural.http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reality (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reality)
Actuality can be defined as conditions andfacts. HMMMMM


Actual- ac·tu·al (kch-l)
adj.
1. Existing and not merely potential or possible


Thingsthat are actual are things that actually exist, not merely having potential orpossible existence.

Is sin, death, and seperation from God actual or merely potential?

Is death real? Is it a reality? Is it a fact of life? Does it occur? If it isreal, a reality, a fact of life, and it occurs, then it exists

Does death exist in our world?

If you do not believe death exists, you do not believe it is real...or thatit occurs
ex·ist (g-zst)
intr.v.ex·ist·ed, ex·ist·ing, ex·ists
1. To have actual being; be real.2. To have life; live:one of the worst actors that ever existed.

3. To live at a minimal level; subsist: barely enough income on which to exist.

4. To continue to be; persist: old customs that still exist in rural areas.

5. To be present under certain circumstances or in a specified place; occur: "
If something occurs in the present, itexists according to the definition above.

[QUOTEIf you do not believe it is real, you do not believe that it occurs...
re·al 1 (rl, rl)
adj.1.
a. Being or occurring in fact or actuality;having verifiable existence:


a. that which happens in fact is real.
b. That which is real exists
ex·ist (g-zst)
intr.v.ex·ist·ed, ex·ist·ing, ex·ists actual or present occurrence <existence of a stateof war>
The same is true of sin. Sin and deathoccur, therefore they are real (occurring in fact and actuality) and they exist(arepresent)in the world.
pres·ent 1 (prznt)

adj.
1. Existing or happening now; current


That which is real is that which is oroccurs in fact.

That which occurs in the present is present in the world..

That which is present in the world exists.

Does sin and death occur, Noeb?

Is sin present in the world Noeb?


That which presently occurs or happens in the world is present in the world,and therefore exists.

Does sin happen, Noeb?
hap·pen·ing (hp-nng)
n.
1. Something that takes place



If it is an occurance that takes place at the present time, then it exists.

ex·ist (g-zst)
intr.v.ex·ist·ed, ex·ist·ing, ex·ists
1. To have actual being; bereal.

2. To have life; live: one of the worst actors that everexisted.

3. To live at a minimal level; subsist: barely enough income on which to exist.

4. To continue to be; persist: old customs that still exist in rural areas.

5. To be present under certain circumstances or in a specified place; occur:"



If it exists, then it is real.

re·al 1 (rl, rl)
adj.
1.
a. Being or occurring infact


So realities, facts, existences, are not only things, they are also occurancesand happenings. If the occurrence or happening is happening or occuring rightnow, then it is present, and if it is present, then it exists..

Noeb
Sep 27th 2013, 12:43 AM
You actually think God needed man to destroy satan? God needs no one to fulfill His purposes. If he does use us, it is out of Grace, not need or necessity.If you are a Christian you believe this, yes.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Psa 8:6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

glad4mercy
Sep 27th 2013, 02:41 AM
when man had relationship and fellowship with God.


Sin as a Noun here is a concept or idea, not a thing.


He could find nothing in Jesus because Jesus never sinned. Sin is not a thing. Until you get this we have very little we can discuss. I'm not into sci-fi. Sorry.

For those who are interested...

Page 148 "kingdom of the cults" by Walter Martin, 2003 edition

Quick facts about Christian Science..."(believes that) sin, death and evil do not exist"

Noeb, if sin does not exist how is it put away (Heb 9:26), taken away by Christ ( John 1:29) how is one a slave of sin (John 8:34), how did sin enter the world (Romans 5:12), how does sin dwell in man (Romans 7:17) how can it be that we are cleansed from sin (1John 1:7), etc

If death does not exist, why dies Rev 21:4 say that there will be no more death. If death does not exist, how is it said that it will cease to exist?

If there is no such thing as death, hon it be said that the second death is deprived of power over those who take part in the first resurrection (Rev 20:6?

If death does not exist, how can it be said that "sin brings death" (James 1:15)

How does wordly sorrow produce death, (2Corinthians 7:10

You still have not answered the questiin " what is the body of sin in Romans 6:6), ,

glad4mercy
Sep 27th 2013, 02:50 AM
If you are a Christian you believe this, yes.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Psa 8:6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
I'm
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The omnipotent, omnipresent, self existent, soveriegn God needs nothing

He does not need us, we need Him.

We did not fall because God needed an excuse or means to destroy satan. GOD was able and would have been justified in destroying satan before He created man.

Jesus was manifest to destroy the works of the devil in man, which includes sin, death, and satan's dominion over man

The death of Jesus was not meant to secure the devil's future perdition in hell, which was already in place when the devil himself fell. Jesus fied to set man free from the kingdom and dominion of darkness, and translate us into the Kingdom of life., which


If you are a Christian you believe this, yes.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Psa 8:6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
I'm
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The omnipotent, omnipresent, self existent, soveriegn God needs nothing

He does not need us, we need Him.

We did not fall because God needed an excuse or means to destroy satan. GOD was able and would have been justified in destroying satan before He created man.

Jesus was manifest to destroy the works of the devil in man, which includes sin, death, and satan's dominion over man

The death of Jesus was not meant to secure the devil's future perdition in hell, which was already in place when the devil himself fell. Jesus fied to set man free from the kingdom and dominion of darkness, and translate us into the Kingdom of life., which

Noeb
Sep 27th 2013, 04:13 AM
For those who are interested...

Page 148 "kingdom of the cults" by Walter Martin, 2003 edition

Quick facts about Christian Science..."(believes that) sin, death and evil do not exist"LOL What does Christian Science have to do with the discussion? and why not post the other quick facts? Like
-God is a divine principle. ....Wha? What does that even mean, LOL? A principle is divine as opposed to what? That's silly.
-Jesus is not God. The incarnation and bodily resurrection did not happen.
-scripture is not inerrant
-there is no literal, physical existence of the material universe. ......cookoo, cookoo, cookoo

Christian Science doesn't believe in the literal/physical. I do so I don't know what you think you are proving. I asked you where I might find sin? If it is literal/physical where is it? You could not answer, and of course I knew you couldn't. Scripture describes Sin as a concept/idea (noun) and that is what most Christians believe. Some Christians think it is a literal/physical thing like a disease, but we're not in the dark ages anymore. The masses have scripture in native languages and Greek lexicons and such so most understand what scripture means, using Sin as a noun. Others? Well, they're still blinded by Augustinian Theology.



Noeb, if sin does not exist how is it put away (Heb 9:26), taken away by Christ ( John 1:29) how is one a slave of sin (John 8:34), how did sin enter the world (Romans 5:12), how does sin dwell in man (Romans 7:17) how can it be that we are cleansed from sin (1John 1:7), etcLiteral/physical sin is not put away/taken away because the concept is nonsense. These verses speak of the power of sin being put away/taken away. That is, the lack of faith (Sin) for fallen man is restore.



If death does not exist,Who said that? You aren't really going to discuss Christian Science with yourself are you? Cuz I won't be wasting my time reading it.



You still have not answered the questiin " what is the body of sin in Romans 6:6), ,I answered this explicitly, and no I'm not going to show you where. Go find it.

percho
Sep 27th 2013, 04:41 AM
gladformercy

I have stated I am a gap er.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

That underlined required that embolden which required for the life (nephesh soul living) of the flesh to be in the blood. Adam was created flesh and blood, mortal and corruptible. The penalty for sin wasn't death of the flesh , it was that when death came to/in the flesh that death would be forever. Dying thou dost die.

The created Adam whether he sinned or not would have had to be born again to enter/see the kingdom of God and or would have had to be changed to inherit the kingdom of God.

I worked up the following tonight for another forum but did not use it. I believe it is relative to this. Let me know what you think.

Thanks in advance.

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Romans 8:17
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Hebrews 1:2

And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. Luke 19:11,12

Would it be fair to say this nobleman inherited the kingdom?

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: 1 John 4:3 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. 1 John 5:7 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Heb. 4:15 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, Acts 13:34

Was Jesus Christ the heir of God flesh and blood, sinless?

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption

Was it necessary for the nobleman, Jesus to be changed in order to inherit the kingdom of God?

To inherit the kingdom of God was it necessary for him to be given the sure mercies of David?

Noeb
Sep 27th 2013, 04:42 AM
The omnipotent, omnipresent, self existent, soveriegn God needs nothingOf course he doesn't need anything. He did however decide to rule and reign in righteousness through man and that is what he is doing.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.



We did not fall because God needed an excuse or means to destroy satan.Agreed. I'm not percho.



GOD was able and would have been justified in destroying satan before He created man.Really? Then why didn't he? If you think this, I don't think you understand what justified means.

Luk 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

If God just destroyed satan, what would that have proven? How would God have been justified?



Jesus was manifest to destroy the works of the devil in man, which includes sin, death, and satan's dominion over man.....which destroys satan through righteousness. The only way God is justified. :idea:



The death of Jesus was not meant to secure the devil's future perdition in hell, which was already in place when the devil himself fell.You totally ignore the scriptures.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

It was already in place but not secure until man was restored and able to live in righteousness. Man living in righteousness judges satan and justifies God. Scripture shows this very clearly.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Noeb
Sep 27th 2013, 05:01 AM
Noeb, if sin does not exist Almost forgot.....where is righteousness? Holiness? Are they things? Where might I find them?

Stan53
Sep 27th 2013, 05:17 AM
Almost forgot.....where is righteousness? Holiness? Are they things? Where might I find them?

ONLY in Jesus. They are NOT things, they are WHO Christ is and He is the only way we can have those attributes.

Jade99
Sep 27th 2013, 04:42 PM
That anyone would think anyone would think "an animal brought sin and death into the world?" is very funny.


Of course. Man needed the tree of life to escape corruption and man and animals had blood. I suggest you step back and think this all the way through.


Dude! 'You are corruptible and will die without the tree of life.' Not saying it again.


Separation from God is not a thing that it can exist.


How can we have a real conversation if things aren't real?


How can we have a real conversation if things aren't real? This gets crazier with every post. I would say stop while you are ahead but you're not. You just counted the work of The Cross null.

Noeb, seriously, your posts are getting confusing by the minute. Why do you keep putting emphasis on the tree of life? Do you actually know what the tree of life is? The tree of life is basically in a nutshell, the symbol of God's provision for immortality in the garden of Eden.

I say this with much love, but I think you need to consider attending a bible teaching church or a regular bible study class; because your answers are borderline fiction, if any. It's alright to say you don't know the answer to something or that you don't get it, especially when it comes to scriptures, but please stop letting Satan confusing you. When someone starts to ramble on, nothing makes sense and the only outcome is confusion and that's what I'm sensing here.

Noeb
Sep 27th 2013, 05:53 PM
Stop letting your senses rule you, the ToL is not a symbol

Jade99
Sep 27th 2013, 06:07 PM
Stop letting your senses rule you, the ToL is not a symbol

Well, stop drinking that kool-aid of whatever it is that is ruling you, because you're answers makes no sense and more importantly, it aint biblical dude.

And it could be that you're too invested in what you believe in to understand that.

glad4mercy
Sep 27th 2013, 06:14 PM
We're talking about sin and death, so let's stick with that for now...

Where is sin?

IN the world-

Romans 5:12- Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

In the human heart-

Romans 7:17- Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:20-Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Jesus came to take remove the power of sin...

Romans 6:6- Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The word destroyed is katargeo which means to deprive of force, influence, and power.

Before Christ, we were without strength (Romans 5:6) and dominated by the sin that dwelt (lived) in us ( Romans 7:17-24). Christ came to set us free from that power by destroying the sin that dwells in us. (Romans 6:6)

glad4mercy
Sep 27th 2013, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by glad4mercy

If death does not exist,
Who said that? You aren't really going to discuss Christian Science with yourself are you? Cuz I won't be wasting my time reading it.

.

You deny the existence of spiritual death.


Noeb- from post 119- Separation from God is not a thing that it can exist.


Logically if you hold that seperation from God does not exist because it is not a thing, then that means that physical death does not either, because Physical death is no more a thing than seperation from God is.

They are both realities. Therefore they both exist. Existence does not only refer to concrete things that you can find, ( you keep saying "where do I find it in a silly manner), existence also refers to realities, like poverty exists in the world, racism exists, etc.

Put another way, if seperation of the sinner from God is not a thing that it can exist, how is seperation of the spirit from the body a thing that it can exist? SO inadvertantly, when you denied that seperation from God existed, you also denied that seperation of the spirit from the body existed.

If seperation of the spirit from the body qualifies as an existence, so does the seperation of the sinner from God. One is just as real as the other.

Physical death is death as it pertains to the body. Spiritual death is death as it pertains to the spirit...

Here you said that seperation from God is not a thing, and it therefore does not exist. So only "things" exist. Yet I gave multiple dictionary definitions that showed that to exist is not only that which is, but it is also that which occurs, as well.

You also inadvertantly, in your argument, said that physical death does not exist. You do not realize it, but in your confusion and sloppiness you are repeatedly contradicting yourself. Now you're saying death exists, but earlier that was not your position. Notice the words from your own mouth

First of all, you contradicted yourself by saying that God did not create death, and then later you said that He did create death, (twice)

In response to Percho in post 87


Percho- I do not believe God created death.
Noeb- God created all. There is only one creator.



In response to me, post 90


Glad4Mercy- When did God create death?
Noeb- Genesis 1:1


Yet in post 100, you said...


Hardly. Why would death have to be created before life? Death is not 'some thing' to be created.

So you do not believe that death was created, in post 100, but you do believe it was created in post 87 and 90. Obviously, you change your position whenever it suits you.

Notice these two quotes from you. They are rather interesting when put together.

Also, according to you in order for something to be real it must be a "thing" that can be found


Post 127- Glad4mercy- If spiritual death/seperation from God is not real
Noeb- not real? How is an incident and state real? Where is it? Where would I find these things?



Physical death is no more a thing running around then sin and spiritual death is. Rememeber when you said this?

Physical death is a state, just like spiritual death is. It is no more a thing than spiritual death is. Both physical and spiritual death exist, because they occur, and I've shown from dictionaries numerous times that to exist does not always refer to the being of things, it also refers to the things that occur.


sin is not 'a thing' running around because if it were it would have come from satan not man.

Physical death is not a thing running around any more than sin is. Physical death did not come into the world through satan either. Both sin and death entered the world through man.



Originally Posted by glad4mercy

If death does not exist,
Who said that? You aren't really going to discuss Christian Science with yourself are you? Cuz I won't be wasting my time reading it.

.

You did, more than once...

You said spiritual death does not exist. Here is the statement in context.


Glad 4 Mercy- There is no mention of human or animal death before the Fall. The presence of the serpent in the garden does not prove that physical death existed, it just proves that spiritual death existed. The devil is not physically dead, I dont' think that he is even a physical being, but he is spiritually


Noeb- from post 119- Separation from God is not a thing that it can exist.



So if Spiritual death, (which is seperation from God) is not a thing, then how is physical death, which is the seperation of the spirit from the body a thing?)

Here you said that seperation from God is not a thing, and it therefore does not exist. So only "things" exist. Yet I gave multiple dictionary definitions that showed that to exist is not only that which is, but it is also that which occurs, as well.

You also inadvertantly, in your argument, said that physical death does not exist. You do not realize it, but in your confusion and sloppiness you are repeatedly contradicting yourself. Now you're saying death exists, but earlier that was not your position. Notice the words from your own mouth

First of all, you contradicted yourself by saying that God did not create death, and then later you said that He did create death, (twice)

In response to Percho in post 87


Percho- I do not believe God created death.
Noeb- God created all. There is only one creator.



In response to me, post 90


Glad4Mercy- When did God create death?
Noeb- Genesis 1:1


Yet in post 100, you said...


Hardly. Why would death have to be created before life? Death is not 'some thing' to be created.

So you do not believe that death was created, in post 100, but you do believe it was created in post 87 and 90. Obviously, you change your position whenever it suits you.

Also notice these two statements that are rather revealing when put side by side...


Separation from God is not a thing that it can exist. Noeb post 119
Death is not some thing to be created.



So if something is not a thing it does not exist, according to the first quote, yet you also said that death is not some thing to be created. Did you mean "something" or "some thing". The fact that "some" and "thing" indicates that you are saying that death is not a thing, and by your other statements this would mean it does not exist (for you argue that sin and seperation from God do not exist for, says you, they are not a thing. Or if you meant something, then you may hold that it is a thing, but not a created thing. Please clarify.

I do agree with the part about death not being created, yet I do not hold that "thingness" is a necessary requirement for existence, if by thing you mean a material object, which seem to be the case, seeing you repeatedly ask me where you can find sin, death, etc.

Also, according to you in order for something to be real it must be a "thing" that can be found


Post 127- Glad4mercy- If spiritual death/seperation from God is not real
Noeb- not real? How is an incident and state real? Where is it? Where would I find these things?



Physical death is no more a thing running around then sin and spiritual death is. Rememeber when you said this?


sin is not 'a thing' running around because if it were it would have come from satan not man.

Physical death is not a thing running around any more than sin is. Physical death did not come into the world through satan either. Both sin and death entered the world through man.

Sin exists. It has power over fallen man just as much as physical death does. You do not make sense when you say that physical death is a thing, but sin is not.

IF you do not hold that Physical death is a thing, then all your statements about sin not being a thing are pointless.

Noeb
Sep 28th 2013, 12:10 AM
Well, stop drinking that kool-aid of whatever it is that is ruling you, because you're answers makes no sense and more importantly, it aint biblical dude. Talk about drinking......
What I have stated is a very common interpretation and always has been. For you to come on here and act otherwise in the name of love and suggest this common belief is fiction and so many don't attend bible teaching churches, study their bible, ramble on, and are under the influence of satan is at best laughable not to mention disingenuous and to prove it ---->


And it could be that you're too invested in what you believe in to understand that.look at this nonsensical statement.

Noeb
Sep 28th 2013, 12:15 AM
You deny the existence of spiritual death.
Noeb- from post 119- Separation from God is not a thing that it can exist.This is why no one can have a discussion with you. I gave my very short and simple definition of spiritual death, which could be greatly expanded, and you say I deny spiritual death. You have comprehension issues my friend.

Noeb
Sep 28th 2013, 12:40 AM
You also inadvertantly, in your argument, said that physical death does not exist. You do not realize it, but in your confusion and sloppiness you are repeatedly contradicting yourself. Now you're saying death exists, but earlier that was not your position. Notice the words from your own mouth

First of all, you contradicted yourself by saying that God did not create death, and then later you said that He did create death, (twice)

So you do not believe that death was created, in post 100, but you do believe it was created in post 87 and 90. Obviously, you change your position whenever it suits you.

Notice these two quotes from you. They are rather interesting when put together.No contradiction, confusion, or sloppiness, you just aren't reading and comprehending as usual. I did not say physical death does not exist. God created and made things to die, as undeniably shown in scripture. He also created and made creatures to be able to sin. He did not create a thing called death just like he did not create a thing called sin. Why is that so hard for you?

Stan53
Sep 28th 2013, 12:48 AM
Death in scriptures has to do with the animation of the body ceasing to exist. It is either actual or effectual. Our spirit NEVER dies.

When scriptures talk about being spiritually dead it mean a spiritual position that will eventually cause permanent physical death. Heb 9:27 shows we all die at least ONCE. If we die in Christ we will live forever, if we die without Christ we will exist in our spirit forever, separated from God.

As the inspired Word of God, the Bible looks at the big picture in relation to this issue, and time is not really considered. Our effective state is just that.

glad4mercy
Sep 28th 2013, 07:10 PM
He did not create a thing called death just like he did not create a thing called sin. Why is that so hard for you?

No one said God created sin. Please show me the post where I said God created sin.

You're the only one who is saying that God created death.

Look at post 87

http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=3050411#post3050411)
Percho- I do not believe God created death
Noeb- God created all. There is only one creator



By the word "all" in the sentence "God created all", I assume you mean that God created all that exists. Secondly, I assume by your acknowledgement that death exists but it is not a thing, that you believe that there are both things and non things that exist. Yet whether an existence is a thing or a non thing, ( for you said that death exists, but it is not a thing), the fact remains that it is real, and the fact remains that you hold that everything that exists was created by God. Is this not what the quote above says?

So you say that death is not a thing, but God created it, because He created all.
You also say that sin is not a thing. So you are putting sin and death in the same category as "non things" that exist, is that correct? Or does death exist and sin does not in your mind?

You say that death exists, that it is part of the all, but sin does not exist and it is not part of all that is, (if only things that are created by God are part of the "all that exists", then of course sin does not exist, because it was not created by God).

You say that death is not a thing, but yet it necessarily had to be created by God, for God created all. By the word "all", I assume you mean "all that exists". You put a difference between existence and thingness, for some of the "all that exists" are not things, but yet were made by God. You put death in this category. So in your paradigm, all that exists has been made by God. Yet it is evident that God did not make sin, therefore in this way you are denying the "existence of sin"

Your logic falls short. If I follow your logic, I end up with this.

The theology of sin according to Noeb

a. God created everything that exists.
b. God did not create sin.
c. Therefore sin does not exist.

So I either have to recognize that God did not create everything that exists, or that God created sin. I cannot hold to the latter, so then it is clear that not everything that exists came from God's hands. God created all things good, but that which is not good is not a creation of God but a perversion of that which He created.

Therefore, just because something exists, it does not mean that God made it. Sin, disease, and death entered the world because man corrupted himself.




So you say that death is not a thing, but God created it, because He created all.
You also say that sin is not a thing. So you are putting sin and death in the same category as "non things" that exist, is that correct? Or does death exist and sin does not in your mind?

You say that death exists, that it is part of the all, but sin does not exist and it is not part of all that is, (if only things that are created by God are part of the "all that exists", then of course sin does not exist, because it was not created by God).

You say that death is not a thing, but yet it necessarily had to be created by God, for God created all. By the word "all", I assume you mean "all that exists". You put a difference between existence and thingness, for some of the "all that exists" are not things, but yet were made by God. You put death in this category. So in your paradigm, all that exists has been made by God. Yet it is evident that God did not make sin, therefore in this way you are denying the "existence of sin"

Your logic falls short. If I follow your logic, I end up with this.

The theology of sin according to Noeb

a. God created everything that exists.
b. God did not create sin.
c. Therefore sin does not exist.

So I either have to recognize that God did not create everything that exists, or that God created sin. I cannot hold to the latter, so then it is clear that not everything that exists came from God's hands. God created all things good, but that which is not good is not a creation of God but a perversion of that which He created.

Therefore, just because something exists, it does not mean that God made it. Sin, disease, and death entered the world because man corrupted himself.

This is orthodoxy 101, Noeb

Noeb
Sep 28th 2013, 08:22 PM
I said
"God created all. There is only one creator."

You asked when. My answer was Genesis 1:1. Is that not what it says?

then I just said
"God created and made things to die........He did not create a thing called death"

There is no contradiction. He did not create a thing called death but death in his creation. He did not create a thing called sin but his creation sins. He created everything. Not man, not satan, if it exists or happens it was created by Him a possibility, to happen, or to exist. Period. If sin and death are things then he created them. They are not. You say they are. That man and or satan created sin and death. There are beliefs systems that represent this view (http://classic.net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=gnosticism) but Christianity is not one of them. You have a theological dilemma.

[EDIT]As usual you have changed your post greatly......went from a few lines to your confused monstrosity.... wait until you are mostly done in the future please.

glad4mercy
Sep 28th 2013, 08:33 PM
I said
"God created all. There is only one creator."

You asked when. My answer was Genesis 1:1. Is that not what it says?

then I just said
"God created and made things to die........He did not create a thing called death"

There is no contradiction. He did not create a thing called death but death in his creation. He did not create a thing called sin but his creation sins. He created everything. Not man, not satan, if it exists or happens it was created by Him a possibility, to happen, or to exist. Period. If sin and death are things then he created them. They are not. You say they are. That man and or satan created sin and death. There are beliefs systems that represent this view (http://classic.net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=gnosticism) but Christianity is not one of them. You have a theological dilemma.

[EDIT]As usual you have changed your post greatly......went from a few lines to your confused monstrosity.... wait until you are mostly done in the future please.

Noeb, when you posted this I was in the process of adding to and editing post 153. Please read the revision.

I have every right to add to my post and edit it after the original is posted, since I have lost many posts due to computer freezes, and website problems.

You say God created the potential to sin. A better way to put this is to say that God created freedom in Adam, and Adam used that freedom to bring sin into the world. God did not create evil, He did not create sin, He did not create death, He did not create idolatry, or racism, or covetousness, etc. yet all of these things exist in the world as well as in the heart of man. This is why the death of Christ was needed in order to destroy (deprive of force and power) the body of sin (Romans 6:6), condemn sin in the flesh (Romans 8:3), and the blood was needed to cleanse us from all sin (1 John 1:7)

glad4mercy
Sep 28th 2013, 08:39 PM
I said
"God created all. There is only one creat

By the word "all", do you mean "all that exists" or something else.

Because if God created all that exists, then either...

a. He created sin or
b. sin does not exist.

Both are false

Perhaps I need to define the verb "exist" or the noun "existence" again.


You asked when. My answer was Genesis 1:1. Is that not what it says?



When you answered Gen 1:1, the question was not when God created all, the question was when God created death. Go back and read the post.

So you hold

a. That God created all.
b. God created death.
c. Death is not a thing..
d. therefore God created all, whether things or non things
e. God deed not create sin.
f. Therefore sin is not part of the all

I agree that God did not create sin. It's the "sin does not exist" or "sin is not part of the 'all that exists' paradigm that is illogical and contrary to fact.

Noeb
Sep 28th 2013, 08:44 PM
God did not create evil, He did not create sin, He did not create death, He did not create idolatry, or racism, or covetousness, etc. yet all of these things exist in the world as well as in the heart of man.Then who did glad4mercy? :idea:

glad4mercy
Sep 28th 2013, 08:45 PM
This is all that one needs to know about what you are saying, Noeb

Your logic falls short. If I follow your logic, I end up with this.


The theology of sin according to Noeb

a. God created everything that exists.
b. God did not create sin.
c. Therefore sin does not exist.

Noeb
Sep 28th 2013, 08:48 PM
By the word "all", do you mean "all that exists" or something else.

Because if God created all that exists, then either...

a. He created sin or
b. sin does not exist.

Both are falsewhere is the thing sin? Where might I find it?



When you answered Gen 1:1, the question was not when God created all,Yes it was. Life cycle is in creation.

Noeb
Sep 28th 2013, 08:50 PM
This is all that one needs to know about what you are saying, Noeb

Your logic falls short. If I follow your logic, I end up with this.
The theology of sin according to Noeb

a. God created everything that exists.
b. God did not create sin.
c. Therefore sin does not exist.You are not following logic. You are the only one disagreeing with this.

Jade99
Sep 29th 2013, 09:57 PM
This is all that one needs to know about what you are saying, Noeb

Your logic falls short. If I follow your logic, I end up with this.

Don't, don't waste your breath with Noeb, because he's too deep in whatever it is he's believing in to listen to reason and when I say reason I mean the word of God.


This is all that one needs to know about what you are saying, Noeb

Your logic falls short. If I follow your logic, I end up with this.

Don't, don't waste your breath with Noeb, because he's too deep in whatever it is he's believing in to listen to reason and when I say reason I mean the word of God.

Jade99
Sep 29th 2013, 10:00 PM
Talk about drinking......
What I have stated is a very common interpretation and always has been. For you to come on here and act otherwise in the name of love and suggest this common belief is fiction and so many don't attend bible teaching churches, study their bible, ramble on, and are under the influence of satan is at best laughable not to mention disingenuous and to prove it ---->

look at this nonsensical statement.

Yeah, ok. You missed the point (like always) but that's just your pride talking, so good luck with that and then come back and visit when you've let that go; ok lolipop.

Noeb
Sep 29th 2013, 11:53 PM
Don't, don't waste your breath with Noeb, because he's too deep in whatever it is he's believing in to listen to reason and when I say reason I mean the word of God.

So which one do you not agree with?
a. God created everything that exists.
b. God did not create sin.
c. Therefore sin does not exist.

If sin exists, where do I find it? See, you have not provided even a verse of scripture in the entire thread, and you cannot talk about reason/the word of God until you have.

Sojourner
Sep 30th 2013, 12:16 AM
Please keep unsaintly, personal remarks out of your exchanges. It's not only carnal and unseemly, but also a violation of forum rules:

III. Conduct
As this is a Christian message board, conduct becoming a Christian is what is expected. We all come from different backgrounds and convictions and each member has their own different personalities and style of communicating through the written word. Remember first and foremost that we come together because of Christ and stand under Him and are accountable in all you say and do. We do not have to agree but allow anothers disagreement to drive you into the Word for answers. Nobody has all the answers, and even in debates with gusto and passion remember that we cannot find the bottom of the knowledge of God in the flesh. We are called into fellowship in order to share, uplift and grow in our shared faith. Name calling, belittling, cutting down another's beliefs, sour attitude or general conduct not becoming a brother or sister in the faith will not be tolerated. Keep your words well salted, in love and centered in the Light.

glad4mercy
Sep 30th 2013, 02:23 AM
In response to post 163 i already answered you more than once,, but since you might have missed it, I will answer you again, ( a courtesy that you have refused me more than once, I might add) Noeb, I already answered your question. Sin exists in the human heart. If you do not acknowledge thepresence of sin in an unregenerate heart, and the need for radical heart cleansing, I fear for yiu. Psalm 51:10, 51:6; 1John 1:8 etc

Not one scripture? I gave a multitude of passages showing the existence of sin.


Here's some repeats and some new ones

Rom. 7:17 and 20; Romans 7:23; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Romans 6:6; 1 John 1:7; 1John1:8; 1 John 3:4; Matthew 12:35-36; Matthew 15:19

If you still insist on denying the existence of indwelling sin, it will be evident to all that you are doing so in the face of clear scriptural refutation.


Noeb, does freedom exist? If so, where do I find it?

In God

If faith exists, where is it? In the human heart.

If love exists where do I find it. It exists in God hearts, and is seen by the actions it produces.

Same with faith, it exists in the heart and is seen by the actions it produces.

Same with sin, it exists in the heart, and is seen by the actions it produces

Same with hate, same with unbelief, same with lust, same with covetousness, same with idolatry, same with evil thoughts, and blasphemies and fornications and adulteries

Where is the filthiness of the spirit found spoken of in 2Cor 7:1? In the human heart.

Same with pride, it exists in the human heart.

God did not create pride, unbelief, filthiness of the flesh and spirit, or sin
Yet they exist in the human heart and bring man into captivity. They need to be dealt with radically.

Sin is not just an action, nor is it merely a concept or idea, as you sais earlier. Sin is a condition of the heart, just as death and disease are a condition of the body

Sin is not only what a person does, it is a heart condition. It is like a cancer that only the grace of God can remove, and trust me, He can and will

Noeb
Sep 30th 2013, 03:37 AM
In response to post 163 i already answered you more than once,Nope.



Sin exists in the human heart.Science has never found a thing in the heart one would call sin. Strange belief you have there.



If you do not acknowledge thepresence of sin in an unregenerate heart,So science would not find this thing in a believer (I guess the thing that pumps blood?) and would find this thing in a non believer? Weird.



and the need for radical heart cleansing, I fear for yiu. Psalm 51:10, 51:6; 1John 1:8 etcThese do not say there is a thing in our 'heart' that pumps blood.



Not one scripture? I gave a multitude of passages showing the existence of sin.Nope.



Here's some repeats and some new ones

Rom. 7:17 and 20; Romans 7:23; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Romans 6:6; 1 John 1:7; 1John1:8; 1 John 3:4; Matthew 12:35-36; Matthew 15:19Again, Sin as a noun is a concept or idea not a thing.



If you still insist on denying the existence of indwelling sin,The law of sin is a noun that is a concept or idea not an indwelling thing. A principle is not a thing.



it will be evident to all that you are doing so in the face of clear scriptural refutation.no it will be evident I agree with almost all that Sin as a noun is a concept or idea not a thing. That the law of sin is a noun that is a concept or idea not an indwelling thing. A principle is not a thing.



Noeb, does freedom exist?No


If faith existsdoesn't


If love existsdoesn't



God did not create pride, unbelief, filthiness of the flesh and spirit, or sinWho did? Why will you not answer this?



Sin is not just an action, nor is it merely a concept or idea, as you sais earlier. Sin is a condition of the heartA condition is not a thing. What you call a condition is the law of sin which is the principle/concept/idea scripture calls Sin. You have sin being both a concept/idea and a condition and that makes no sense at all. These are one.

Jade99
Sep 30th 2013, 02:00 PM
So which one do you not agree with?
a. God created everything that exists.
b. God did not create sin.
c. Therefore sin does not exist.

If sin exists, where do I find it? See, you have not provided even a verse of scripture in the entire thread, and you cannot talk about reason/the word of God until you have.

I disagree with c - sin does not exist.

Sin does exist, because anything that is against the word of God is sin. Lets think back to when God told Adam to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam disobeyed God when he ate from the tree. He can't really blame Eve or Satan tempting Eve at all, because it was ultimately Adam's decision to eat the fruit. Lucifer's attraction to rebellion against God is what caused his fall. So, how does sin exist and where to find it, simple - disobedience against God.

Even something as snipping and arguing with each other on here to the point where our pride takes over, whether it's with intent or not, is disobedience to God. (BTW...I'm sorry for getting snippy the other day. it's no excuse, but I am in PMS mode, at least I was last week...again I'm sorry)

But Any scripture in the bible that speaks against sin and disobedience is evidence enough that sin does indeed exist. And if we say that sin does not exist, they we make God to be a liar. If sin didn't exist, then why did Paul say that the wages of sin is death? Why did Jesus had to come to pay the ransom for the sins of mankind?

Romans 5:13 says "for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law."

then the next verse 14: "Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come."

So, sin does exist brother. I wish it didn't and I wish that I or any of us still have the sinful nature in us, but we should take comfort in the fact that it's not forever. The important thing to do is to own it, when you do sin and confess that to yourself and more importantly to God.

Again I'm sorry for going snippy.

glad4mercy
Sep 30th 2013, 03:18 PM
Then who did glad4mercy? http://bibleforums.org/images/smilies/eureka.gif
[God did not create pride, unbelief, filthiness of the flesh and spirit, or sin
Who did? Why will you not answer this?
/QUOTE]

These things were not created. That is the fallacy in your reasoning. You think that the only existences are "created things"


Let's look at the definition of "exist" again...

[QUOTE]ex·ist (http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifg-zhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifsthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif)intr.v.ex·ist·ed, ex·ist·ing, ex·ists 1. To have actual being; be real.
2. To have life; live: one of the worst actors that ever existed.
3. To live at a minimal level; subsist: barely enough income on which to exist.
4. To continue to be; persist: old customs that still exist in rural areas.
5. To be present under certain circumstances or in a specified place; occur: "Wealth and poverty exist in every demographic category" (Thomas G. Exter).[

In saying that sin does not exist, you are saying that sin is not real. You also said that freedom does not exist, which is false. Freedom exists, if nowhere else we know that freedom exists with God. Saying that sin is not real opens up a multitude of error.[QUOTE]

Because of this fallacy of yours, "if it was not created by God, it does not exist", you hold that God created disease, sickness, and death. Yet I hold that God did not create sickness, disease, or death, rather I hold that sickness, disease, and death are a result of the fall. There are many things that are real and that occur that God was not the author of. (see definition of "exist" again if you need to.

For example, moral evil exists but it was not created by God.

God did not create moral evil. God did not create iniquity, yet iniquity was found in the heart of the one spoken of in Ezekiel 28:15- 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee

You asked where sin can be found? Look no further...

God did not put iniquity in the heart, yet it is found in the heart of both fallen angels and men. Therefore iniquity is present, but it was not created by God. It is not a created thing. You are correct in saying that sin is not a created thing, but you are incorrect in saying that it does not exist.

a. Sin exists
b. sin was not created by God
c. therefore, sin exists without being a creation of God.

God did not create sin nor was it made ex nihilo. Sin is the result of man taking the freedom that God gave him and perverting it, and in so doing coming into bondage to the very thing that he thought would bring him freedom/autonomy from God.

The fact that there is indwelling sin, (which you deny), is clearly shown in the passages I have given you repeatedly.

Romans 7:17- Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Does this create an excuse for sin? Certainly not, for God has provided a remedy and salvation not only from the guilt of sin, but also from the power and presence of sin.

Romans 6:6- 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin

Romans 6:14- For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

1 John 3:5- 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So Paul says that indwelling sin wars in our members and brings us into captivity, until the work of Christ is applied, and at that time man is set free from the power and dominion of sin, yet he must reckon himself dead to sin and alive to Christ for this freedom to come to complete fruition in day to day experience .

Romans 6:11- Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ....

You can talk about death in animals and plants, but the fact remains, there is no evidence that there was death in man or sickness or disease in any part of the Kosmos before the Fall. The only evidence you have is a theoretical, speculative theology called the Gap Theory, which the Bible neither teaches for or against. Therefore, your assumptions are extra biblical. Anyways, God did not create death according to the Gap theory either. Death and destruction of the first age, (a gap theory assumption) was a result of the sin of Lucifer. (Note: I am not promoting this doctrine, only stating what it says)

glad4mercy
Sep 30th 2013, 03:41 PM
Note to readers...

I do not hold to the gap theory, because I have found no explicit biblical teaching on it. Yet, it is a valid part of this discussion, for gap theorists hold that death existed pre fall. Yet I think the whole system is extremely speculative, and not solid enough to build an entire creation theology around. I prefer a literal, non embellished interpretation of Genesis 1-3, though I do not categorically deny the gap theory, I just do not teach or promote it.

Mark me down as skeptical of the "gap theory", but fully persuaded of everything that is clearly taught in the Bible.

glad4mercy
Sep 30th 2013, 04:06 PM
Sin exists in the human heart.
Science has never found a thing in the heart one would call sin. Strange belief you have there.



Oh, Noeb...are you resorting to hyper-empiricism now?

Science has never found soul or spirit, life after death, heaven, hell, faith, or many other things that exist.


Again, Sin as a noun is a concept or idea not a thing.


SO you interpret the following passages thusly?

Romans 7:17- 7 Now then it is no more I that do it, but (the idea or concept of) sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:19-20- 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but (the idea or concept of) sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 6:6- Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of (the idea or concept of) sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7- For he that is dead is freed from (the idea or concept of sin.)

Romans 6:10 For in that he (Christ) died, he died unto (the idea or concept of) sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

John 8:34- Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of (the idea or concept of) sin.

Romans 7:25- I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of (the idea or concept of) sin.

Romans 8:2- 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of (the idea or concept of) sin and death.

1 Corinthians 15:56- The sting of death is (the idea or concept of) sin; and the strength of (the idea or concept of) sin is the law..


You do not understand the cardinal truth that sin is both outward acts and also an inner state. In fact, it is the inner state that produces the outward acts. This is why we understand true repentance as not only a reformation of the actions, but also the change of the heart. Jesus said "you cleanse the outside of the cup, but inside it is full of extortion and excesses...cleanse first the inside of the cup that the outside may be clean also.

Hence we have the promises of sin cleansing in 1 John 1:7; 1 John 1:9, heart purification Acts 15:9; Psalm 51:10; etc.

Is moral evil an idea or a concept too? How about iniquity? Or on the other side, is faith nothing more than an idea or a concept?

glad4mercy
Sep 30th 2013, 04:31 PM
I disagree with c - sin does not exist.

Sin does exist, because anything that is against the word of God is sin. Lets think back to when God told Adam to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam disobeyed God when he ate from the tree. He can't really blame Eve or Satan tempting Eve at all, because it was ultimately Adam's decision to eat the fruit. Lucifer's attraction to rebellion against God is what caused his fall. So, how does sin exist and where to find it, simple - disobedience against God.

Even something as snipping and arguing with each other on here to the point where our pride takes over, whether it's with intent or not, is disobedience to God. (BTW...I'm sorry for getting snippy the other day. it's no excuse, but I am in PMS mode, at least I was last week...again I'm sorry)

But Any scripture in the bible that speaks against sin and disobedience is evidence enough that sin does indeed exist. And if we say that sin does not exist, they we make God to be a liar. If sin didn't exist, then why did Paul say that the wages of sin is death? Why did Jesus had to come to pay the ransom for the sins of mankind?

Romans 5:13 says "for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law."

then the next verse 14: "Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come."

So, sin does exist brother. I wish it didn't and I wish that I or any of us still have the sinful nature in us, but we should take comfort in the fact that it's not forever. The important thing to do is to own it, when you do sin and confess that to yourself and more importantly to God.

Again I'm sorry for going snippy.

Wonderful post for it's soundness and honesty.

None of us rejoices over the existence of sin or evil, but it is very real. When we understand that the source of the actions of sin are the indwelling sin (the sin that dwells in us Romans 7:17 and Romans 7:20), we understand that the only way to be free from the dominion of sin is to give God our heart of stone so that he can exchange it for a soft heart, and then after we are His, so that He can cleanse our hearts from sin on a continual basis (1 John 1:7). Then we rejoice in God, because we know that all of our righteousness comes from Him, from His Grace alone. Otherwise, we have a theology of "I stopped sinning and that's why God accepted me or God accepted me on the merit of my faith," as if anything we can do can merit grace. :no:

ON the contrary, repentance is recognizing our sinfulness and coming to God so that He can make us clean. As the Leper said "Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean". Then Jesus said "I am willing, be clean" and the leper was immedietely cleansed.

Leprosy is a physical condition and sin is a spiritual one, but both are cleansed by the touch of Jesus.

Blessings Jade.

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 12:38 AM
I disagree with c - sin does not exist.

Sin does exist, because anything that is against the word of God is sin.Sin happens yes, but is not a thing that exists. It's not some thing in our constitution, is the point. Or, do you believe it is?



Lets think back to when God told Adam to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam disobeyed God when he ate from the tree. He can't really blame Eve or Satan tempting Eve at all, because it was ultimately Adam's decision to eat the fruit. Lucifer's attraction to rebellion against God is what caused his fall. So, how does sin exist and where to find it, simple - disobedience against God.Well, again, I fail to see that as a thing in our constitution.



Even something as snipping and arguing with each other on here to the point where our pride takes over, whether it's with intent or not, is disobedience to God. (BTW...I'm sorry for getting snippy the other day. it's no excuse, but I am in PMS mode, at least I was last week...again I'm sorry)No problem sis and I am sorry I snapped back.



But Any scripture in the bible that speaks against sin and disobedience is evidence enough that sin does indeed exist.No. Sin happens. There are reasons it happens. We have a body, spirit, and soul and a principle and process that takes place in those members, but a principle and process is not a thing in our constitution.

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 12:50 AM
Because of this fallacy of yours, "if it was not created by God, it does not exist", you hold that God created disease, sickness, and death.You will stop saying this or I will cease communications. Let me know what it's gonna be. The rest of your post agrees with what I have said and I will explain if you stop the above slander.

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 04:52 AM
You will stop saying this or I will cease communications. Let me know what it's gonna be. The rest of your post agrees with what I have said and I will explain if you stop the above slander.

So you do not believe that God created sin, disease, and death. Are you excluding sickness and disease only, becsuse earlier you said God created death. OK, you asked if God did notb create sin, who did. Since you asked that about sin and death, to be consistent, you have to ask who created sickness and disease, if not God. The answer is the same. Death, disease, and sickness were not created, they are the result of the fall.

As far as slander, you are the one who asked me where you could find sin merely because I said it existed, you are the one who said that God created death in Gen 1:1, and that sickness and disease existed before the fall. I am not slandering you, nor am I misunderstanding you because I am thick in the head, it is a matter of the fact that I am taking your statements at face value, and followinfmg what you say to its logical conclusion

I have no idea where you stand now. Do you believe sin exists? Do you believe God created death? Do you believe disease is a natural part of God's creation? Earlier your answers seemed to indicate, in order, no, yes,, yes. But now that I basically repeat what I heard you say, you accuse me of slander.

You said God created death

You said sickness and disease and death existed before the fall, (and that the hypothetical gap theory had nothing to do with it) well if sin, death, and disease were not a result of Adams fall, nor Lucifer', ( which I would not agree that disease and death originated with him anyways as he is not a physical being subject to physical disease, and death anyways), then where? I still hold the same answer, sin, sickness, disease and death, were the result of the fall.When I said sin exists, you said "where can I find it?", etc. So what is in the quote you quoted that slanders or misrepresents what you say?

Like you said, it is impossible to have a conversation with me, because my beliefs are far out and sci fi. If after all I've said, you still hold that position, particularly the posts I've posted earlier today, if you think I' m still "way out there", we will never reach agreement, for there is nothing sci fi or far out about what I've defended, and I have presented clear scripture. Which scripture have I wrested? Show me the error of my exegesis. This you have not done. All you have done is ask me questions like "if sin exists, where do I find it?" Etc

To which I replied "in the human heart, needing to be slain and cleansed away by the blood of Jesus.

Unless you have something to say that will shed new light on our discussion, I've said all that I care to say. The way things stand right now, we're just repeating ourselves over and over again.

It's always good to chat with you. Someti.es we learn more from talking with people who disagree with us. Have a good week

percho
Oct 1st 2013, 05:42 AM
Note to readers...

I do not hold to the gap theory, because I have found no explicit biblical teaching on it. Yet, it is a valid part of this discussion, for gap theorists hold that death existed pre fall. Yet I think the whole system is extremely speculative, and not solid enough to build an entire creation theology around. I prefer a literal, non embellished interpretation of Genesis 1-3, though I do not categorically deny the gap theory, I just do not teach or promote it.

Mark me down as skeptical of the "gap theory", but fully persuaded of everything that is clearly taught in the Bible.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev. 12:9
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb. 2:14
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:1,2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. Gen 2:1 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. Gen 2:7,8


But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:17 Die? YLT: dying thou dost die.
Scripture4all.org Hebrew interlinear: to die, you shall die. Death will come to man in the world. At the moment in time A&E ate; Who had the power of death? Where was he and what is he doing at this point in time? How did he acquire this power?

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Gen 2:23-25

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Who is this serpent? What is he about to exercise? How long had he been around? ---To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, Acts 26:18

Now before the sun, moon and stars begin to be for; Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: (This took place.) And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Gen 1:4,5

God divided himself, the light see Acts 26:18 from the darkness, Satan and his power see Acts 26:18 that was already present on the earth in verse 2.


I feel like, "The man from _ _ _ _ _."

Jade99
Oct 1st 2013, 01:20 PM
Sin happens yes, but is not a thing that exists. It's not some thing in our constitution, is the point. Or, do you believe it is?


Well, again, I fail to see that as a thing in our constitution.


No problem sis and I am sorry I snapped back.


No. Sin happens. There are reasons it happens. We have a body, spirit, and soul and a principle and process that takes place in those members, but a principle and process is not a thing in our constitution.

Hey, how you doin?

Do you mean like the constitution of the United States? or something else? I'm confused.

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 01:41 PM
Great Jade99, how are you?

"the composition of something"

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 01:54 PM
Glad4mercy, in post 151 I said God did not create these things. You continue to accuse me of saying he did. Are you going to stop or not? It's very simple.

Jade99
Oct 1st 2013, 01:55 PM
Sin happens yes, but is not a thing that exists. It's not some thing in our constitution, is the point. Or, do you believe it is?


Well, again, I fail to see that as a thing in our constitution.


No problem sis and I am sorry I snapped back.


No. Sin happens. There are reasons it happens. We have a body, spirit, and soul and a principle and process that takes place in those members, but a principle and process is not a thing in our constitution.

Hey, how you doin?

Do you mean like the constitution of the United States? or something else? I'm confused.

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 03:17 PM
Glad4mercy, in post 151 I said God did not create these things. You continue to accuse me of saying he did. Are you going to stop or not? It's very simple.

In post 90, you said God created death. It is there for everyone to see, but I will show it here.


Glad4mercy, in post 151 I said God did not create these things. You continue to accuse me of saying he did. Are you going to stop or not? It's very simple.

In post 90, you said God created death. It is there for everyone to see, but I will show it here.

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 03:20 PM
Noeb, in post 88 I asked you when God created death. This was your answer in post 90.



Genesis 1:1
.

The reason I asked the question in post 88 is because of what you said to Percho. Do you remember this exchange you had with Percho and I?


Percho- I do not believe God created death. (post 83)



Noeb- (in response to Percho) God created all. There is only one creator. (post 87)




Glad4Mercy (in response to the statement "God created all")- When did God create death? (post 88)


Noeb (in response to my question) Genesis 1:1


Also, I never claimed that you said God created sin. I am saying that you use the statement "God did not create sin"
and "sin is not a thing" to bolster your argument that sin does not exist. My response is that God did not create sin, yet it exists.

Documentation on my statements and your statements on sin to follow...

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 03:25 PM
Hello? I explained this in 151 and 154. If you don't accept it fine but you will stop falsely accusing me or face the consequences. Do you understand?

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 03:29 PM
Hey, how you doin?

Do you mean like the constitution of the United States? or something else? I'm confused.why are you double posting? Do you not understand the definition? Did you not see my reply? What's up sis?

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 03:35 PM
Genesis 1:1

[QUOTE=Noeb;3050448]Genesis 1:1
.


Hello? Are you there? Anyone in there? I explained this in 151. If you don't accept it fine but you will stop falsely accusing me or face the consequences. Do you understand?

You are engaging in silly semantical dances. First you say God created death, then you say God did not create a thing called death. So are you saying that God created death, or are you saying that God did not create death as a "thing"?

Does death exist? Yes or no? Is death a thing or a non thing? Is death a reality or a concept/idea (like you claim that sin is.)?


You said God did not create a thing called death, and you said death is not a thing to be created, and you said sin is not a thing that it should exist. I agree that death was not created, but I do believe sin exists, (and not just as a verb and/or a concept or idea, and I do not believe that sin was created, but came as a result of the fall, (first of Lucifer and the fallen angels, then by man) and that death did as well.

Through one man sin entered the world, and death by sin.(Romans 5:12)

What consequences will I face? I did not mock your beliefs as sci fi. You have been the one who has been using derisive language towards me throughout this thread. Do you want me to provide a documented list of that as well?

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 03:51 PM
So your answer is no. Done. You want out. It's the only explanation for your ramblings. You go ahead and hold you Augustinian nonsense. You are alone here.

Old man
Oct 1st 2013, 03:56 PM
You are alone here.

No he's not..................

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 04:08 PM
So you also believe sin is a disease like thing in our constitution? Wonder how many actually still believe this? I find it interesting that no one is willing to post about it, having no scripture.

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 04:19 PM
Noeb and Glad4Mercy on spiritual death and sin


Post 119- Glad4Mercy The presence of the serpent in the garden does not prove that physical death existed, it just proves that spiritual death existed

Noeb- Separation from God is not a thing that it can exist.



Here you clearly state that seperation from God is not a thing, and because it is not a thing, it does not exist. The meaning of your words are clear. Only things exist, conditions do not exist, states do not exist, etc. You continue in this vein in this later post...


How is an incident and state real? Where is it? Where would I find these things?



So to you, states are not real.

Yet both physical death and spiritual death are states. Physical death is the state of the spirit being seperated from the body, and spiritual death is the state of the sinner being seperated from God. Yet you say that states are not real. What does this ammount to except that the state of death, (physical and spiritual) do not exist.

Later in the same post...

In post 142, you insinuated that sin does not exist, because it is not a thing that can be found...


Glad4Mercy- Noeb, if sin does not exist
Noeb- Almost forgot.....where is righteousness? Holiness? Are they things? Where might I find them?



Here you are equating existence with concrete thingness again, asking "where can I find these things" as if the fact that they are unseen makes them non existent. Faith is evidence of things not seen, Noeb.


This is why no one can have a discussion with you. I gave my very short and simple definition of spiritual death, which could be greatly expanded, and you say I deny spiritual death.

Your definition of spiritual death was seperation from God, which I agree with. Yet you also said that "seperation from God is not a thing that it can exist." (post 119)


Noeb- from post 119- Separation from God is not a thing that it can exist.

So you said that seperation from God does not exist because it is not a thing. What else can your words above mean?

Yet I correctly said that you denied the existence of spiritual death, which is exactly what you said, for you said...


Separation from God is not a thing that it can exist

And you said...


I gave my very short and simple definition of spiritual death, which could be greatly expanded, and you say I deny spiritual death. You have comprehension issues my friend.

I did not say you deny spiritual death, I said you deny it's existence, which is exactly what you said for you said...


Noeb- from post 119- Separation from God is not a thing that it can exist.


I do not have comprehension issues, Noeb. I am just repeating what you clearly said. What does "seperation from God is not a thing that it can exist" mean except that you are saying it does not "exist". Please look the word "exist" up in the dictionary.


said
"God created all. There is only one creator."

You asked when. My answer was Genesis 1:1. Is that not what it says?


This statement was patently untrue. When you answered "Gen 1:1, the question was not "when did God create all", it was "when did God create death". Go back and read post 90 again...


Post 157- Glad4Mercy- God did not create evil, He did not create sin, He did not create death, He did not create idolatry, or racism, or covetousness, etc. yet all of these things exist in the world as well as in the heart of man

Noeb- Then who did glad4mercy?


You still did not comprehend my point that these things were not created by God, but where results of rebellion among God's creatures, (fallen angels and man), and you showed that lack of comprehension of the truth by asking "then who did (create) them.

In post 159, in response to me calling "sin does not exist" a false statement, you answered...


]where is the thing sin? Where might I find it?
[/COLOR]
.


So when I stated in essence that sin existed, you basically asked me to prove it by telling you where it is and where you can find it. As if everything that exists can be found by us in this life or seen by us.


You continued this trend in post 160


In response to the paradigm that you present, which is

The theology of sin according to Noeb


a. God created everything that exists.
b. God did not create sin.
c. Therefore sin does not exist.

I said that you were not following sound logic in asserting this, and you replied...


You are not following logic. You are the only one disagreeing with this.

In post 163, you said


If sin exists, where do I find it? See, you have not provided even a verse of scripture in the entire thread, and you cannot talk about reason/the word of God until you have.

When I said that sin exists in the human heart, (post 166) you replied...





Science has never found a thing in the heart one wouldcall sin. Strange belief you have there.



You completely changed the biblical definition of heart.


Glad4Mercy- and the need for radical heart cleansing, I fear for yiu. Psalm 51:10, 51:6; 1John 1:8 etc

Noeb- These do not say there is a thing in our 'heart' that pumps blood.





You denied the existence of indwelling sin, (taught clearly by Paul in Romans 7:17 and 7:20 when you said


]The law of sin is a noun that is a concept or idea not an indwelling[/COLOR] thing. A principle is not a thing.



So exactly in what way have I misrepresented your words or slandered you?

You have engaged in double talk throughout this thread, yet you accuse people who do not understand your highly unorthodox, contradictory, theology of being thick, lacking comprehension, etc

Either you are authoring confusion with your theology, or you are not communicating your concepts in a consistent manner. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but that does not mean I have a comprehension problem, it could mean that you need to more carefully expound your views. You chided me for my much editing, but the thing is, if I read a post of mine and see something that is stated that is not stated clearly, I tend to restate it in a way that it will not be ambiguous to those who read it. Yet we should not accuse one another of slander, based on misunderstandings of what one apparently seems to be saying. My interpretation of your words, as shown above, is not unreasonable. I am interpreting your words in the general and usual meaning.

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 04:22 PM
So your answer is no. Done. You want out. It's the only explanation for your ramblings. You go ahead and hold you Augustinian nonsense. You are alone here.

I am not Augustinian, and I am far from alone in my position. The funny thing is that you think that everyone who is not Pelagian is Augustinian, which is untrue. There are many positions that are neither fully Augustinian nor fully Pelagian. Others have agreed with me here. Only one person has agreed with you, as far as I can see.

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 04:54 PM
Since it appears there may be a few confused individuals here, ll explain a few things for your sakes.



Science has never found soul or spirit, life after death, heaven, hell, faith, or many other things that exist.Science studies the soul (result of body and spirit) at length but it is not a separate thing that exists. I as have many have seen spirits. They exists. Heaven is place and of course exists. Faith is trust and does not.




SO you interpret the following passages thusly?

Romans 7:17- 7 Now then it is no more I that do it, but (the idea or concept of) sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:19-20- 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but (the idea or concept of) sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 6:6- Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of (the idea or concept of) sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7- For he that is dead is freed from (the idea or concept of sin.)

Romans 6:10 For in that he (Christ) died, he died unto (the idea or concept of) sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

John 8:34- Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of (the idea or concept of) sin.

Romans 7:25- I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of (the idea or concept of) sin.

Romans 8:2- 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of (the idea or concept of) sin and death.

1 Corinthians 15:56- The sting of death is (the idea or concept of) sin; and the strength of (the idea or concept of) sin is the law.Replace "the idea or concept of" with "law of" and you have the proper meaning.



You do not understand the cardinal truth that sin is both outward acts and also an inner state. In fact, it is the inner state that produces the outward acts.Sin, the law of sin, is not an inner state. An occurring principle is not a state or a thing. Sin is inner and outer and not a thing. The born again believer of Romans 6-8 does not have a thing called sin in their constitution. That's simply not scriptural.

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 05:06 PM
Noeb, I am not trying to slander you, misrepresent you, or disrespect you in any way. I just want to ask where you get this idea that there is no such thing as indwelling sin? What scripture passages led you to deny sin as a real existence dwelling in the heart?

If I may use an analogy, we know that there is a thing called "sickness". Sickness manifests itself in symptoms. If I have the flu, I may have a fever, cough, congestion, etc. Yet only masking the symptoms does not treat the sickness. Sickness is a underlying physical condition producing symptoms.

Now I do not at all hold that sin is a sickness, so do not make this analogy stand on all fours, but sinfulness is an underlying spiritual condition that is internal, that produces external and internal actions of breaking God's Laws. We sin because our hearts are unclean. The blood of Jesus cleanses and purifies our hearts, gives us a new nature, destroys/deprives of force the power of sin, and sets us free from the dominion of sin, etc so we can live unto God.

By heart, I do not mean the blood pumping organ, but the inner man. The Bible presents the inner man not only seperated from God by sin, but also defiled and enslaved by sin, and Roman 7 clearly says that the motions of sin operate in us producing bondage and death, until Jesus comes in and deals with it radically throught the Holy Spirit

There are no scriptures that deny this truth, so I assume that your denial of this is a result of a system of theology. In the past, I have held many beliefs that were a result of a theological system parts of which I discarded because a careful study of God's Word showed them to be faulty. I spent many years tearing down things that I was taught by some teachers, commentaries, etc. by reading nothing but the Word of God alone. Many of my beliefs were the same as they are now, and I was orthodox in all of the essential doctrines, but in some areas I held to things because I had heard many pastors say them, and I accepted them at face value. Some things were a result of a superficial reading of God's Word on my own part. I am always putting my beliefs to the test, and anytime the Bible corrects me, I am not afraid to discard a "doctrine", (if I find it to be contrary to scripture.)

I think our views differ largely due to the meaning we each attach to the word "exist". It seems that you think that something has to have physical substance to exist, or that it has to be a created thing "to be". I do not limit the words in this manner, nor does any good dictionary. Evil exists, yet is uncreated. Death exists but is uncreated. Seperation from God exists, but it is not God's doing, but ours, etc.

I don't like to discuss in the manner that I have been doing in the last few posts, but I had to post the last few posts to show the things you said that caused me to come to the conclusion that I did regarding your views. If I misunderstood you, I apologize, but I generally interpret what people say by the meanings of the words they use.

Blessings

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 05:25 PM
G, the majority don't believe in original sin and sin nature so most agree with me. You believe sin is a sickness or disease of sorts (spiritually) that changed/effected A&E's constitution and through generation, their descendants.

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 05:45 PM
Science studies the soul (result of body and spirit) at length but it is not a separate thing that exists. I as have many have seen spirits. They exists. Heaven is place and of course exists. Faith is trust and does not.




The spirit is seperate from the body at death, so there is an existence of seperate spirits, in heaven and hell, awaiting resurrection.


Heaven is place and of course exists

A place that cannot be found until death or translation.

Did you not earlier say that physical death exists? Physical death is a state, just as spiritual death is a state. Seperation from God is a state, and sinfulness is a state. Physical death requires physical resurrection. Spiritual death requires spiritual resurrection, seperation from God requires reconciliation, and sin requires cleansing and imputed/imparted righteousness.


Sin, the law of sin, is not an inner state.

Sin is a law much as gravity is a law. Gravity is a physical law, the law of sin is a spiritual law. The law of the Spirit of life is also a spiritual law. They are not merely concepts or ideas, they actually effect us.


Sin is inner and outer and not a thing

Here defining sin as a verb. Yet the verb "sinning" is a result of a condition (indwelling sin, (Romans 7:17 and 7:20)


The born again believer of Romans 6-8 does not have a thing called sin in their constitution.

If a person is trying to serve God in their own strength, they will come into captivity to the sin that operates in their hearts.

IN Romans 6-8, Paul is contrasting those who try to obey God in the power of the flesh without being born of the Spirit and/or depending on the Spirit, and the one who tries to obey God in the power of the Spirit. If we try to obey God in the power of the flesh, the following things will become real for us

Romans 7:8-10- 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Romans 7:11- For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Romans 7:13-Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Romans 7:23- But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members

Why do all these things come to pass?

Romans 7:14- 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Yet these things do not have to be true of believers, for if as believers we walk in the Spirit, this is what will take place.

Romans 8:2-2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 6:4- Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:6- 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

In Romans 7, sin has dominion over the person (7:14). Yet for the one who is under grace, sin has no dominion.

In Romans 7, the person has been slain by sin. (7:11). Under Grace, the person is raised up to walk in newness of life.

In Romans 7, sin was working in our members, producing death (7:5) Under grace, the body of sin has been destroyed (deprived of power and force) (6:6) and sin has been condemned (8:3)

In Romans 7, there is bondage and captivity to sin (7:23) IN Grace, we are freed from sin (6:7)

Two very different conditions in Romans 7 and Romans 6 and 8. The apostle is telling us that sin has a power over us that needs to be broken by Grace


Science studies the soul (result of body and spirit) at length but it is not a separate thing that exists. I as have many have seen spirits. They exists. Heaven is place and of course exists. Faith is trust and does not.




The spirit is seperate from the body at death, so there is an existence of seperate spirits, in heaven and hell, awaiting resurrection.


Heaven is place and of course exists

A place that cannot be found until death or translation.

Did you not earlier say that physical death exists? Physical death is a state, just as spiritual death is a state. Seperation from God is a state, and sinfulness is a state. Physical death requires physical resurrection. Spiritual death requires spiritual resurrection, seperation from God requires reconciliation, and sin requires cleansing and imputed/imparted righteousness.


Sin, the law of sin, is not an inner state.

Sin is a law much as gravity is a law. Gravity is a physical law, the law of sin is a spiritual law. The law of the Spirit of life is also a spiritual law. They are not merely concepts or ideas, they actually effect us.


Sin is inner and outer and not a thing

Here defining sin as a verb. Yet the verb "sinning" is a result of a condition (indwelling sin, (Romans 7:17 and 7:20)


The born again believer of Romans 6-8 does not have a thing called sin in their constitution.

If a person is trying to serve God in their own strength, they will come into captivity to the sin that operates in their hearts.

IN Romans 6-8, Paul is contrasting those who try to obey God in the power of the flesh without being born of the Spirit and/or depending on the Spirit, and the one who tries to obey God in the power of the Spirit. If we try to obey God in the power of the flesh, the following things will become real for us

Romans 7:8-10- 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Romans 7:11- For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Romans 7:13-Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Romans 7:23- But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members

Why do all these things come to pass?

Romans 7:14- 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Yet these things do not have to be true of believers, for if as believers we walk in the Spirit, this is what will take place.

Romans 8:2-2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 6:4- Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:6- 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

In Romans 7, sin has dominion over the person (7:14). Yet for the one who is under grace, sin has no dominion.

In Romans 7, the person has been slain by sin. (7:11). Under Grace, the person is raised up to walk in newness of life.

In Romans 7, sin was working in our members, producing death (7:5) Under grace, the body of sin has been destroyed (deprived of power and force) (6:6) and sin has been condemned (8:3)

In Romans 7, there is bondage and captivity to sin (7:23) IN Grace, we are freed from sin (6:7)

Two very different conditions in Romans 7 and Romans 6 and 8. The apostle is telling us that sin has a power over us that needs to be broken by Grace

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 05:51 PM
What scripture passages led you to deny sin as a real existence dwelling in the heart?

There are no scriptures that deny this truthscripture speaks of false doctrine and doesn't go into most of them explicitly, saying x,y, and z that will be invented by man is false.

it's on you to show it exists in scripture

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 05:57 PM
G, the majority don't believe in original sin and sin nature so most agree with me. You believe sin is a sickness or disease of sorts (spiritually) that changed/effected A&E's constitution and through generation, their descendants.

I told you that the disease thing was an analogy. You do not interpret analogies rightly.

Most people believe in indwelling sin. The vast majority of Christians hold to this doctrine. Not that that makes it right. What makes it right is that the Bible teaches it.

I never used the word constitution.

The question of what Adam's sin did to His descendants is a topic for another thread. Yet it is clear that we did inherit some things from Adam by birth, even you admit that seperation from God and the tree of life is a result of Adam's sin, and that seperation produces sinfullness.

I have never said that sin was passed down through the genes, nor did I deny it. Yet it is clear that death itself is passed down from Adam, for the scriptures say...


Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

and


Romans 5: 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Whether or not the passing down is through genetics or some other way does not change the fact itself. I do not concern myself with such questions.


G, the majority don't believe in original sin and sin nature so most agree with me. You believe sin is a sickness or disease of sorts (spiritually) that changed/effected A&E's constitution and through generation, their descendants.

I told you that the disease thing was an analogy. You do not interpret analogies rightly.

Most people believe in indwelling sin. The vast majority of Christians hold to this doctrine. Not that that makes it right. What makes it right is that the Bible teaches it.

I never used the word constitution.

The question of what Adam's sin did to His descendants is a topic for another thread. Yet it is clear that we did inherit some things from Adam by birth, even you admit that seperation from God and the tree of life is a result of Adam's sin, and that seperation produces sinfullness.

I have never said that sin was passed down through the genes, nor did I deny it. Yet it is clear that death itself is passed down from Adam, for the scriptures say...


Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

and


Romans 5: 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Whether or not the passing down is through genetics or some other way does not change the fact itself. I do not concern myself with such questions.

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 06:00 PM
scripture speaks of false doctrine and doesn't go into most of them explicitly, saying x,y, and z that will be invented by man is false.


it's on you to show it exists in scripture

I already did. Romans 6:7, 7:8; 7:17; 7:20; etc.


scripture speaks of false doctrine and doesn't go into most of them explicitly, saying x,y, and z that will be invented by man is false.


it's on you to show it exists in scripture

I already did. Romans 6:7, 7:8; 7:17; 7:20; etc.

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 06:34 PM
There is no scripture that implies sin is a thing. It says it is a principle/law/concept/idea. It is your belief in original sin and sin nature that has filtered this truth and caused you to come to the wrong conclusion.

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 07:03 PM
There is no scripture that implies sin is a thing. It says it is a principle/law/concept/idea. It is your belief in original sin and sin nature that has filtered this truth and caused you to come to the wrong conclusion.

Semantical tap dancing still.

You hold that physical death is not a thing, but it exists, while at the same time saying that sin does not exist for the very reason that it is not a thing.

If you hold that sin exists, (you've been wavering between yea and nay throughtout this thread), then why is it that every time I say it exists, you say "no, no, no, no, it is not a thing, not a thing, not a thing" as if the fact that you say the same thing over again makes the statment, (whether true or not), prove something that it does not prove.

I will say it again. Existence does not only apply to material, physical things.

You say sin does not exist because it is not a thing, yet death which is not a thing does exist. That these statements contradict is obvious. How about seperation from God? You said it is not a thing, does it exist?

The only reason for sin's non existence you have offered is that it is not a thing. Yet you also said "seperation from God" is not a thing either, so you must hold, (if you are consistent), that seperation from God does not exist.

You want to have your cake and eat it too, but I don't think you are fooling anyone.


I never said "sin is a thing". I said sin exists. Obviously, even though I have posted the definition of "exist" numerous times, you still do not know what it means. Your argument is nothing more than semantical games.

According to Romans 7:17 and 20, what is said to "dwell within" man?

Go ahead and wrest and change the meaning of these verses, I have presented my case well, and you have brought nothing but confusion of terms, double talk, and straw man arguments in your replies to me.

"sin is not a thing" is a silly straw man argument. You ignore what I say about indwelling sin, and construct a "sin is a thing" straw man and beat on it and think "I have proved my case". The only thing you have proven is that you are expert at building straw men and then beating on them like a dead horse.

"where is sin that I may find it" is a very shallow and weak counter to the existence of sin. It's like the cosmonaut who went up in space and who supposedly said "I don't see God up here". This was probably not said, but your argument of "no discovery" is about as substantial as his statement would have been.

You have provided no scripture, none whatsoever, to refute the view of sin I have presented. All you have presented is invalid and impotent rhetocal questions, suspect definition of terms, and a and superimposing your own straw men into the conversation instead of actually refuting what I am saying.

This is my final post on the subject. You are debunking propositions that have not even come into the conversation, because you are completely incapable of debunking what I have actually said.

I am probably wrong in staying in this thread with you so long. There's good reason why everyone else stopped talking. Why throw gasoline on a fire? What you are saying is not good, and the best thing to do is to not respond.

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 07:24 PM
I have consistently said it does not exist and I'm only interested in a biblical perspective. It's not semantics its your choosing of definition that fits the theological lens you hold and filter everything through. That's not how to understand scripture. People don't speak because its absurd.

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 07:28 PM
I have consistently said it does not exist and I'm only interested in a biblical perspective. It's not semantics its your choosing of definition that fits the theological lens you hold. That's not how to understand scripture. People don't speak because its absurd.

Then I was not slandering you when I quoted you as saying that sin, death, and seperation from God do not exist.

a. You said sin is not a thing and therefore it does not exist.
b. You also said that seperation from God was not a thing either.
c. Therefore, by your logic, neither sin nor seperation from God does not exist

Noeb, do you hold that physical death is a thing?

I have documented fully what you have said step by step earlier. You cannot deny that this is what you believe. SO don't accuse me of slander for calling you on it, but just acknowledge and confess it without the accusations.

I sincerely hope you do not flip flop again, and accuse me of slander in quoting you as saying "sin does not exist", because you just said it clearly in your last post. I doubt if anyone agrees with you, I will be amazed if someone does.

Nice chatting with you.

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 07:33 PM
Oh, and I haven't and don't ignore indwelling sin, we just approach the nature of man and the fall from opposite ends. Sin as a noun is a principle from within -indwelling. We must learn how it works using the whole counsel of God and we are on opposite ends. So stop saying I ignore something and flip flop because I understand and define it differently than you. That's very dishonest and should not exist in your dealings. You're not fooling anyone. The majority doesn't hold original sin/sin nature so the majority agrees with me.

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 07:40 PM
Oh, and I haven't and don't ignore indwelling sin, we just approach the nature of man and the fall from opposite ends. Sin as a noun is a principle from within -indwelling. We must learn how it works using the whole counsel of God and we are on opposite ends. So stop saying I ignore something because I understand and define it differently that you. That's very dishonest and should not exist in our dealings.

If you believe in indwelling sin, why did you oppose me every time I said it.


Since you now have switched from defining sin as an idea/concept to a principle, which definition of principle do you mean, (seeing that there is more than one possible meaning of principle.)


prin·ci·ple (prns-pl)
n.
1. A basic truth, law, or assumption: the principles of democracy.

2.
a. A rule or standard, especially of good behavior: a man of principle.

b. The collectivity of moral or ethical standards or judgments: a decision based on principle rather than expediency.

3. A fixed or predetermined policy or mode of action.

4. A basic or essential quality or element determining intrinsic nature or characteristic behavior: the principle of self-preservation.

5. A rule or law concerning the functioning of natural phenomena or mechanical processes: the principle of jet propulsion.

6. Chemistry One of the elements that compose a substance, especially one that gives some special quality or effect.

7. A basic source. See Usage Note at principal.
Idioms:

I would agree with number 4, at least in regards to an unsaved person.

Regarding the Law of sin, here are definitions.


. A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority.

2.
a. The body of rules and principles governing the affairs of a community and enforced by a political authority; a legal system: international law.

b. The condition of social order and justice created by adherence to such a system: a breakdown of law and civilized behavior.

3. A set of rules or principles dealing with a specific area of a legal system: tax law; criminal law.

4. A piece of enacted legislation.

5.
a. The system of judicial administration giving effect to the laws of a community: All citizens are equal before the law.

b. Legal action or proceedings; litigation: submit a dispute to law.

c. An impromptu or extralegal system of justice substituted for established judicial procedure: frontier law.

6.
a. An agency or agent responsible for enforcing the law. Often used with the: "The law . . . stormed out of the woods as the vessel was being relieved of her cargo" (Sid Moody).

b. Informal A police officer. Often used with the.

7.
a. The science and study of law; jurisprudence.

b. Knowledge of law.

c. The profession of an attorney.

8. Something, such as an order or a dictum, having absolute or unquestioned authority: The commander's word was law.

9. Law
a. The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible.

b. The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.

10. A code of principles based on morality, conscience, or nature.

11.
a. A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain: the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship.

b. A way of life: the law of the jungle.

12.
a. A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.

b. A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.

13. Mathematics A general principle or rule that is assumed or that has been proven to hold between expressions.

14. A principle of organization, procedure, or technique: the laws of grammar; the laws of visual perspective.

I would go with 12a. How about you?


Oh, and I haven't and don't ignore indwelling sin, we just approach the nature of man and the fall from opposite ends. Sin as a noun is a principle from within -indwelling. We must learn how it works using the whole counsel of God and we are on opposite ends. So stop saying I ignore something because I understand and define it differently that you. That's very dishonest and should not exist in our dealings.

If you believe in indwelling sin, why did you oppose me every time I said it.


Since you now have switched from defining sin as an idea/concept to a principle, which definition of principle do you mean, (seeing that there is more than one possible meaning of principle.)


prin·ci·ple (prns-pl)
n.
1. A basic truth, law, or assumption: the principles of democracy.

2.
a. A rule or standard, especially of good behavior: a man of principle.

b. The collectivity of moral or ethical standards or judgments: a decision based on principle rather than expediency.

3. A fixed or predetermined policy or mode of action.

4. A basic or essential quality or element determining intrinsic nature or characteristic behavior: the principle of self-preservation.

5. A rule or law concerning the functioning of natural phenomena or mechanical processes: the principle of jet propulsion.

6. Chemistry One of the elements that compose a substance, especially one that gives some special quality or effect.

7. A basic source. See Usage Note at principal.
Idioms:

I would agree with number 4, at least in regards to an unsaved person.

Regarding the Law of sin, here are definitions.


. A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority.

2.
a. The body of rules and principles governing the affairs of a community and enforced by a political authority; a legal system: international law.

b. The condition of social order and justice created by adherence to such a system: a breakdown of law and civilized behavior.

3. A set of rules or principles dealing with a specific area of a legal system: tax law; criminal law.

4. A piece of enacted legislation.

5.
a. The system of judicial administration giving effect to the laws of a community: All citizens are equal before the law.

b. Legal action or proceedings; litigation: submit a dispute to law.

c. An impromptu or extralegal system of justice substituted for established judicial procedure: frontier law.

6.
a. An agency or agent responsible for enforcing the law. Often used with the: "The law . . . stormed out of the woods as the vessel was being relieved of her cargo" (Sid Moody).

b. Informal A police officer. Often used with the.

7.
a. The science and study of law; jurisprudence.

b. Knowledge of law.

c. The profession of an attorney.

8. Something, such as an order or a dictum, having absolute or unquestioned authority: The commander's word was law.

9. Law
a. The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible.

b. The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.

10. A code of principles based on morality, conscience, or nature.

11.
a. A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain: the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship.

b. A way of life: the law of the jungle.

12.
a. A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.

b. A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.

13. Mathematics A general principle or rule that is assumed or that has been proven to hold between expressions.

14. A principle of organization, procedure, or technique: the laws of grammar; the laws of visual perspective.

I would go with 12a. How about you?

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 07:46 PM
I oppose your understanding and didn't switch anything :rolleyes:

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 07:59 PM
Law, nomos- as it is used in Romans 7:23,25 etc- From Thayers3


Law of sin- The impulse to sin inherant in human nature emanating from the power of death, contrasted with the Law of the Spirit, Ie the impulse to right action emanating from the Spirit.


"Emanating from the power of death"... This can only refer to spiritual death. Spiritual death creates an impulse in us to sin, not only enticing us, but literally impelling us. This is the Law of sin. This law is only overcome by the greater law, the Law of the Spirit.

So the Law of sin is the impulse to sin, the influence of sin (just as the Law of Gravity is the influence of Gravity). The definition describes a kind of force that can only be overcome by a greater force, which is the Law of the Spirit. Simple

From Vines expository dictionary


Vine's expository- b) of a force or influence impelling to action, Rom 7:21, 23 (1st part), "a different law," RV;


So the Law of sin is the impulse to sin, the influence of sin, a kind of force that can only be overcome by a greater force, which is the Law of the Spirit. Simple

Definition of Sin from Vines


Sin (Noun and Verb):
is, lit., "a missing of the mark," but this etymological meaning is largely lost sight of in the NT. It is the most comprehensive term for moral obliquity. It is used of "sin" as (a) a principle or source of action,
or an inward element producing acts, e.g., Rom 3:9 (http://bibleforums.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=3&v=9#s=1049009); 5:12 (http://bibleforums.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=5&v=12#s=1051012), 13 (http://bibleforums.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=5&v=13#s=1051013), 20 (http://bibleforums.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=5&v=20#s=1051020); 6:1 (http://bibleforums.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=6&v=1#s=1052001), 2 (http://bibleforums.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=6&v=2#s=1052002); 7:7 (http://bibleforums.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=7&v=7#s=1053007) (abstract for concrete); Rom 7:8 (http://bibleforums.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=7&v=8#s=1053008) (twice), Rom 7:9 (http://bibleforums.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=7&v=9#s=1053009), 11 (http://bibleforums.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=7&v=11#s=1053011), 13 (http://bibleforums.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=7&v=13#s=1053013), "sin, that it might be shown to be sin," i.e., "sin became death to me, that it might be exposed in its heinous character:" in the clause, "sin might become exceeding sinful," i.e., through the holiness of the Law, the true nature of sin was designed to be manifested to the conscience;
(b) a governing principle or power, e.g., Rom 6:6 (http://bibleforums.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=6&v=6#s=1052006); "(the body) of sin," here "sin" is spoken of as an organized power, acting through the members of the body, though the seat of "sin" is in the will (the body is the organic instrument); in the next clause, and in other passages, as follows, this governing

So which of the earlier definitions of principle would apply to something that is a governing principle or power that acts through the members of the body?

That's all that needs to be said, folks.

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 08:25 PM
And all of that is mans definitions without one verse to support any of it. LOL, dude I said that's your proplem. The lens of original sin/sin nature is throughout this entire post. No scripture. No reason or logic. Just man. What is the impulse? Then you proceed to original sin/sin nature. These would first need to be established as truth before you could use them to explain the impulse/law of sin. We don't sin because we have it, that ridiculous, Adam didn't have it. But there is a reason, what is it?

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 09:19 PM
And all of that is mans definitions without one verse to support any of it. LOL, dude I said that's your proplem. The lens of original sin/sin nature is throughout this entire post. No scripture. No reason or logic. Just man. What is the impulse? Then you proceed to original sin/sin nature. These would first need to be established as truth before you could use them to explain the impulse/law of sin. We don't sin because we have it, that ridiculous, Adam didn't have it. But there is a reason, what is it?

Your definitions are your own personal definitions. The definitions that I posted are from men that are experts in Greek, and have studied the words as they are used in various contexts.

No one said "original sin" or "sin nature". Straw man argument. We already discussed these topics, and I did not intend to discuss them here.

You said nobody, oh nobody agrees with me, and when I posted to experts who did, you cried "those are man's definitions". Too bad God didnt inspire a Bible dictionary, huh Noeb? All we can do is examine the words as they were used in various contexts, and examine what they meant in their historical and textual context. You do not do that. You give no thought to how the Biblical writers and their readers understood the passages, no consideration of the way that the words were used in various places of the Bible, nothing but Noeb's concise dictionary to refer to. If you have considered the historical and textual context of the passages, you have not done so here. Nothing but invalid rhetorical questions, confusion of terms, and inadequete definitions/semantics.

Which recognized Bible translator or scholar recognized sin as nothing more than an idea or concept? Name them, and provide references for me to see. Or is this all in the mind of Noeb.

The definitions I posted actually agreed in some points to your stated definitions earlier. Why, one even used the word "principle". I was expecting you to say "see, I told you so, these definitions are exactly what I have been saying". But you instead fought against the definitions of Vine and Thayer who actually gave a little bit of agreement to what you were saying, though not fully. It has to be exactly what you say, word for word verbatim, or else it is unacceptable.

I almost think that if I were to repeat you verbatim, you would oppose me just as much as you do now.

percho
Oct 1st 2013, 09:53 PM
glad4mercy

Post 175 are my reasons from scripture for my believing who, what, when, where I believe Satan and death were in the picture.



Post 175 are my reasons from scripture for my believing who, what, when, where I believe Satan and death were in the picture.

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 09:59 PM
glad4mercy

Post 175 are my reasons from scripture for my believing who, what, when, where I believe Satan and death were in the picture.



Post 175 are my reasons from scripture for my believing who, what, when, where I believe Satan and death were in the picture.-

Thank you Percho. To begin with, Revelation 12:9, if you look at it in context, was fulfilled after Jesus' ascension. I'll take this post one point at a time with you, but I have to sign out soon, so I may not reply again until tommorow.

Blessings


glad4mercy

Post 175 are my reasons from scripture for my believing who, what, when, where I believe Satan and death were in the picture.



Post 175 are my reasons from scripture for my believing who, what, when, where I believe Satan and death were in the picture.-

Thank you Percho. To begin with, Revelation 12:9, if you look at it in context, was fulfilled after Jesus' ascension. I'll take this post one point at a time with you, but I have to sign out soon, so I may not reply again until tommorow.

Blessings

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 10:10 PM
Hate to bust your bubble G but knowing Greek has nothing to do with it. People don't believe or not believe in original sin/sin nature/spiritual death because of their level of Greek. You're not even grasping for straw or beating a bush anymore, you're beating the air. My definitions are scripture. I'm not pushing spiritual death like you are. I don't have and agenda. I've have yet to find a bible scholar that doesn't think sin as a noun in those verses is a concept/idea/principle. Why would there be one? Everyone knows that's what they mean. Why do you make it something else, injecting mans definition of spiritual death is the question. I don't have that filter clouding my vision.

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 10:14 PM
:sleeping:
Hate to bust your bubble G but knowing Greek has nothing to do with it. People don't believe or not believe in original sin/sin nature/spiritual death because of their level of Greek. You're not even grasping for straw or beating a bush anymore, you're beating the air. My definitions are based on scripture. I'm not pushing spiritual death like you are. I don't have and agenda. I've have yet to find a bible scholar that doesn't think sin as a noun in those verses is a concept/idea/principle. Why would there be? Everyone knows it. Why do you make it something else injecting mans definition of spiritual death is the question.

I thought you agreed with me that spiritual death is seperation from God? :confusion:


I am quite done with this. Goodbye. Thanks for the discussion.

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 10:33 PM
I do agree with that but you said, " This can only refer to spiritual death. Spiritual death creates an impulse in us to sin,not only enticing us,but literally impelling us." And you know I believe scripture shows it in A&E before they sinned but they had God. Man was created with it else where's the temptation and test and sin?

So here we are having gone full circle to where we ended up in the last thread. Did you expect otherwise? I didn't.

Jade99
Oct 1st 2013, 11:16 PM
why are you double posting? Do you not understand the definition? Did you not see my reply? What's up sis?

I have no idea what happened, I just noticed it too. Must be another glitch in the system. I thought I was losing it, lol. But I saw the definition and thank you for the explaination.

glad4mercy
Oct 1st 2013, 11:44 PM
I do agree with that but you said, " This can only refer to spiritual death. Spiritual death creates an impulse in us to sin,not only enticing us,but literally impelling us." And you know I believe scripture shows it in A&E before they sinned but they had God. Man was created with it else where's the temptation and test and sin?

So here we are having gone full circle to where we ended up in the last thread. Did you expect otherwise? I didn't.

Spiritual death did not exist in adam and eve before the fall.

Potential to sin and die does not equate to existing spiritual death.

Spiritual death is the result of sin

Adam was spiritually alive until he sinned.

Potential to sin is not death. Enslavement to sin is what the fall produced

Potentiality and enslavement are two different thinhs

Just like now when we are Christians. We are set free by grace, but we can foolishly put ourselves back into bondage.

Yet even so, Adam had freedom that we cannot fully understand before the fall, having never known sin previously


I do agree with that but you said, " This can only refer to spiritual death. Spiritual death creates an impulse in us to sin,not only enticing us,but literally impelling us." And you know I believe scripture shows it in A&E before they sinned but they had God. Man was created with it else where's the temptation and test and sin?

So here we are having gone full circle to where we ended up in the last thread. Did you expect otherwise? I didn't.

Spiritual death dib not exist in adam and eve before the fall.

Potential to sin and die does not equate to existing spiritual death.

Spiritual death is the result of sin

Adam was spiritually alive until he sinned.

Potential to sin is not death. Enslavement to sin is what the fall produced

Potentiality and enslavement are two different thinhs

Just like now when we are Christians. We are set free by grace, but we can foolishly put ourselves back into bondage.

Yet even so, Adam had freedom that we cannot fully understand before the fall, having never known sin previously

A good analogy would be that a young person may have a curious desire to try drugs or porn, but the force of the temptation is not as strong as it is with an addict. That's one way to describe the difference between potential to sin and bondage

Noeb
Oct 1st 2013, 11:53 PM
Spiritual death dib not exist in adam and eve before the fall.

Potential to sin and die does not equate to existing spiritual death.

Spiritual death is the result of sin

Adam was spiritually alive until he sinned.

Potential to sin is not death. Enslavement to sin is what the fall produced

Potentiality and enslavement are two different thinhs

Just like now when we are Christians. We are set free by grace, but we can foolishly put ourselves back into bondage.
I agree. Did you think I said otherwise?

Noeb
Oct 2nd 2013, 02:50 AM
A good analogy would be that a young person may have a curious desire to try drugs or porn, but the force of the temptation is not as strong as it is with an addict. That's one way to describe the difference between potential to sin and bondageYou added this. If you are trying to say this is the difference between us and Adam, you are in another world and another book. The addict becomes so by first giving into temptation time and again. No one is born an addict, unless you believe in sin through generation, but you said you did not ;)

percho
Oct 2nd 2013, 03:42 AM
Glad



I only used that verse to show the dragon, the serpent, the devil and Satan appear to all refer to one.

Post with you later. Thanks for your input.

glad4mercy
Oct 2nd 2013, 03:45 PM
Glad



I only used that verse to show the dragon, the serpent, the devil and Satan appear to all refer to one.

Post with you later. Thanks for your input.

I agree with you on this point.


Glad



I only used that verse to show the dragon, the serpent, the devil and Satan appear to all refer to one.

Post with you later. Thanks for your input.

I agree with you on this point.

glad4mercy
Oct 2nd 2013, 03:48 PM
I agree. Did you think I said otherwise?

Here is what you said..



Spiritual death creates an impulse in us to sin,not only enticing us,but literally impelling us." And you know I believe scripture shows it in A&E before they sinned but they had God

I figured the subject of the second sentence was "spiritual death" as that was the subject of the first sentence. And you said scripture shows it in A&E before the Fall.

If you meant impulse to sin, you were not clear in your writing. Additionally, there is no mention of Adam and Eve having an impulse to sin until they were tempted and believed the lie.

Lastly, if you meant that the impulse to sin was in Adam and Eve before the fall, then what put that impulse there? Not God. God tempts no man. Not spiritual death. Man was not spiritually dead until after the fall.

So where did "the impulse to sin" come from? It certainly didnt come from God. Therefore either way your statement is invalid

glad4mercy
Oct 2nd 2013, 04:56 PM
You added this. If you are trying to say this is the difference between us and Adam, you are in another world and another book. The addict becomes so by first giving into temptation time and again. No one is born an addict, unless you believe in sin through generation, but you said you did not ;)


The analogy flew right over your head.

the point was Adam and Eve had no previous inclination or impulse to sin, just as a young person may not have an inclination or impulse to use drugs or do something else until it is presented to them as an enticement. Yet you have already admitted that the impulse to sin exists in man (post 211). Yet it was not put there by God, so that impulse was not there before the temptation/fall. God did not create the impulse to sin, right?

Either the impulse was put there by God or it happened as a result of the fall. I choose the latter. I certainly hope you do not hold to the former.

There was no impulse in man that used the law to produce the motions of sin, nor was man carnal and sold under sin under the Law. Nor did sin revive in Adam when the commandment came, for to revive, something needs to have preexisted in a latent state. Yet the Bible shows that for natural man when the commandment enters, sin revives and death occurs. (Romans 7:9) This could not have been true for Adam, because for something to revive, it must already exist, and sin did not exist in man before the fall. Simple.

glad4mercy
Oct 2nd 2013, 05:19 PM
IN response to Percho, post 175 is in reference to the gap theory.

(for those who think this is off topic, it actually is not. For if the gap theory is true, then there was the existence of Physical death before Genesis 1:2-3, which I do not hold, but it needs to be addressed and is relevant to the discussion.


Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb. 2:14


Please explain what this has to do with the "Gap theory"


In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:1,2

This does not necessarily mean that there was a previous earth age that was destroyed and that the world was remade. It could just mean that God when God originally created the matter that composed the earth, he had not yet spoken physical light into existence, nor had he formed the dry ground. IN Genesis 1:1, God created the earth yet there was no physical light yet, there was no dry ground, no plants, etc. It was covered in water and darkness. Then God spoke light into existence, created the firmament, created dry grounds and seas, etc. God created then formed the earth.

As far as the rest of it, you fail to realize that light and darkness in Genesis 1:3 is referring to physical light and darkness and the passage in Acts is referring to spiritual light and darkness.

I believe in the hermeneutical rule that a passage needs to be interpreted literally, unless the context determines otherwise. If the literal sense makes sense, seek no other sense. Allegorically interpreting passages willy nilly produces a lot of fanciful speculation, and puts the Bible at the mercy of the imagination of the reader. If the passage is meant to be allegorical or symbolic, it will be clear that that is the case, at least with the Bible. Otherwise, sound exegisis is the historical/grammatical method of Bible interpretation.

percho
Oct 2nd 2013, 05:42 PM
IN response to Percho, post 175 is in reference to the gap theory.

(for those who think this is off topic, it actually is not. For if the gap theory is true, then there was the existence of Physical death before Genesis 1:2-3, which I do not hold, but it needs to be addressed and is relevant to the discussion.



Please explain what this has to do with the "Gap theory"



This does not necessarily mean that there was a previous earth age that was destroyed and that the world was remade. It could just mean that God when God originally created the matter that composed the earth, he had not yet spoken physical light into existence, nor had he formed the dry ground. IN Genesis 1:1, God created the earth yet there was no physical light yet, there was no dry ground, no plants, etc. It was covered in water and darkness. Then God spoke light into existence, created the firmament, created dry grounds and seas, etc. God created then formed the earth.

As far as the rest of it, you fail to realize that light and darkness in Genesis 1:3 is referring to physical light and darkness and the passage in Acts is referring to spiritual light and darkness.

I believe in the hermeneutical rule that a passage needs to be interpreted literally, unless the context determines otherwise. If the literal sense makes sense, seek no other sense. Allegorically interpreting passages willy nilly produces a lot of fanciful speculation, and puts the Bible at the mercy of the imagination of the reader. If the passage is meant to be allegorical or symbolic, it will be clear that that is the case, at least with the Bible. Otherwise, sound exegisis is the historical/grammatical method of Bible interpretation.

Hebrews 2:14 proves because the devil, Satan, had the power of death, which is darkness according to Acts 26:18 Man Adam was created flesh and blood subject to that power so that, the Christ who was to be slain and or shed his blood and or be subject to the power of Satan, was determined for that death even before the man in whose image he would come to accomplish that was created.

Everything that is done from Gen 1:3 to Gen 1:31 is done so to bring about the Christ to destroy something that already exist. Darkness that is upon the face of the deep on the earth. The power of Death.

Man is going to be created so the Son of God the Christ can come as the Son of Man and destroy (abolish) this power. See 2 Tim 1:10 That is accomplished by God giving to his sinless Son who gave his life, the only life in him, to abolish this power when his Father by grace, for he had our sin laid on him, washed away that sin from his Son by regeneration.

glad4mercy
Oct 2nd 2013, 05:50 PM
Hebrews 2:14 proves because the devil, Satan, had the power of death, which is darkness according to Acts 26:18 Man Adam was created flesh and blood subject to that power

We can stop there, for the statement that Adam was created subject to the power of satan, death, and darkness is incorrect and unbiblical.

Percho, as I stated before, man was not subject to sin, satan, or death, nor did this triumvate have any power or authority over man until after the fall.

Man was given dominion over the earth, not satan. Satan was an intruder, who Adam had the authority to boot out, but he failed to do so.

percho
Oct 2nd 2013, 10:04 PM
We can stop there, for the statement that Adam was created subject to the power of satan, death, and darkness is incorrect and unbiblical.

Percho, as I stated before, man was not subject to sin, satan, or death, nor did this triumvate have any power or authority over man until after the fall.

Man was given dominion over the earth, not satan. Satan was an intruder, who Adam had the authority to boot out, but he failed to do so.

Was man created lower than the angels or was he made lower than the angels after he sinned? Why was Jesus made lower than the angels? Do you not negate the purpose for the death of the Christ to be foreordained?

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Luke 20:36 Is that speaking of these? For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:29

Are these brethren born in the image of the resurrected Christ making him the firstborn of many, less than, equal to or greater than the man Created on the sixth day of the week of creation?

For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. Hebrews 2:5

Assuming the world to come is the age spoken of above in Luke 20:35,36 that it will not be subject to angels as either this present or some world in the past was? BTW I believe from scripture that it is this present world that is subject to angelic beings both good and bad?

glad4mercy
Oct 2nd 2013, 10:27 PM
Was man created lower than the angels or was he made lower than the angels after he sinned?

Created that way, but that if you think that means that man was mortal in the original prestate fall, you are making assumptions, not stating facts. The Bible does not explicitely state that man was mortal before the fall, your conclusion, imo, is a non sequitur, (if I am reading your statement correctly)


Why was Jesus made lower than the angels?

For the suffering of death. The phrase "Jesus was made a little lower than the angels" is another way of saying Jesus, the incarnate LOGOS of God was made human in the incarnation.


Do you not negate the purpose for the death of the Christ to be foreordained?


Of course not. God did not create man to sin so that He could send His Son to save them, God created man knowing that he would sin, and sent His Son because of that fact. God did not allow man to sin in order to send His Son, He sent His Son because He knew man would sin. Otherwise, you have God orchestrating the Fall in order instead of merely giving man freedom, even while knowing that man would choose death.

God did not make man defective without the ability to be obedient, and then command him to be obedient for the very purpose of causing him to fall. God made man free (in his original state before the fall), knew man would sin, and then sent the Saviour to save fallen man.

Think about Joseph. Did God send the famine so that he could have a reason for the brothers to sell Joseph into slavery, or did God foreknow the famine and allow it (even though He could have prevented it), and allow the brothers to sell Joseph into slavery (even though He could have prevented that too), but bring good out of even the brothers wickedness in order to bring glory unto himself.

the question is not is such and such the will of God. God's will shall be done. The question is "is God the one that creates moral evil and sin in man's (and satan's heart)" is God the one who orchestrates the committing of sins, or does God in His perfect Soveriegnty allow it without causing it, and then bringing good out of it for His own purposes and glory.

The betrayal of Judas Iscariot and the actions of the wicked men who crucified Christ fell right into God's determinate councel and foreknowledge, but God did not cause Judas or the religious leaders who crucified Jesus to sin, nor did He plant the evil intentions in their heart. He knew that it would happen, He could have prevented it, but He allowed it to happen, yet He did not cause it, which is why even though it fulfilled God's purpose, there was guilt involved in what Judas and the men who crucified Christ did. Acts 2:23 says God handed him over to them, but at the same time says that the hands that slew Jesus were wicked. We know that God is not the author of sin, even if it may be allowed and used by God to fulfill His purposes. This is true because God is absolutely Soveriegn, and His purposes cannot be defeated, not because He is the author or planner of sin.

...and Adam was in no way subject to satan before the fall. God would not have created man in a state of slavery to a fallen being.

Noeb
Oct 2nd 2013, 11:19 PM
Here is what you said..
you know I believe scripture shows it in A&E before they sinned but they had God


I figured the subject of the second sentence was "spiritual death" as that was the subject of the first sentence. And you said scripture shows it in A&E before the Fall.

If you meant impulse to sin, you were not clear in your writing.Not clear? Since we agree spiritual death is separation I could not have been talking about spiritual death.



Additionally, there is no mention of Adam and Eve having an impulse to sin until they were tempted and believed the lie.Completely false. This of course is the foundational error of your systematic theology. They were created with (impulse) instinct, drives, desire, compulsion, inspiration, stimulation, stimulus, incitement, motivation. They were not robots. They were told to have dominion and guard and protect the kingdom. They were to grow in grace and knowledge to behave like God, like beautiful things, and have a need for food and enjoy the food. What made these temptations was gaining them without and against God -sin. There was nothing wrong with the impulses.



Lastly, if you meant that the impulse to sin was in Adam and Eve before the fall, then what put that impulse there?God of course. He created man.



God tempts no man.The natural impulses of man are not temptations.



So where did "the impulse to sin" come from?I said they had impulses. To fulfill them improperly is sin and that is a choice.



Therefore either way your statement is invalidNo, your systematic theology is invalid.

Noeb
Oct 2nd 2013, 11:22 PM
The analogy flew right over your head.How so? I nailed it. No one is born an addict as you have admitted.

percho
Oct 3rd 2013, 01:14 AM
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20 Before God said, "Let there be light," it was foreordained for the blood of the Christ to redeem man from death, the power of Satan, the devil. Death is the works of the devil.

that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14 The power of death was not with Adam. For the blood of the Christ to be able to redeem from death, the power of the devil, the ones to be redeem would of necessity need to be subject to death as would the sinless one that was to redeem them.

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8


Man created in the image of God was the means by which God was going to destroy something present before the man was created. God's Son was going to come in the image of the man created in the image of God for the purpose of death.


I cry, U N C L E

glad4mercy
Oct 3rd 2013, 04:29 PM
How so? I nailed it. No one is born an addict as you have admitted.

Well not that it is going to establish "born in sin", ( I recognize this right off the bat), but you are incorrect here.


Babies can also be born addicted to heroin and can suffer from withdrawal symptoms. Withdrawal symptoms include irritability, convulsions, diarrhea, fever, sleep abnormalities, and joint stiffness. Mothers who inject narcotics are more susceptible to HIV, which can be passed to their unborn children.

Secondly, you missed the analogy because you missed the intent of the analogy. The intent of the analogy was not to show that babies are born addicts, the intent of the analogy is that Adam and Eve were created without an inclination to sin, just as many young people have no inclination towards drugs until the drug is presented as an enticement. This is what happened with Adam. Adam and Eve had no inclination to sin, until the serpent entered.

Adam had no inclination or predisposition towards sin when he was created. Just like Jesus (John 14:30), satan had nothing in Adam, ie there was nothing existing in Adam in an active or a inactive state that would be defined by the following...

a. There was nothing in Adam to take the commandment of God and actually use it to put Adam into bondage as there is in fallen man ( Romans 7:8),


7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

b. there was no sin in Adam before the fall that is revived by the entrance of the commandment, as there is in fallen man (Romans 7:9),


7: 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

there was no law in Adam's members warring against the Law of his mind and bringing him into captivity as there is in fallen man (Romans 7:23),


Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members

etc. Adam and Eve's sin was willful and committed in complete freedom. Now sometimes we commit sin willfully as well, and that sin is committed freely, but we see a principle in fallen man where even when a man does not want to sin, he sins anyways. This was not so with Adam. There was nothing working death in him before the Fall as there is in fallen man (Romans 7:23)


Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members

God did not create Adam with sin in him, sin was not in Adam in the beginning, but sin dwells in fallen man.



7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:20- Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.-

You say that sin is not a thing but is an idea or concept. There is another word that could be used to describe what sin is besides thing/principle/idea. The word I would choose is quality.

So now we have expelled you "sin is not a thing" argument which goes thusly.

a. sin is not a thing
b. Therefore it is only a idea or concept.

This is a non-sequitur, for point b does not of necessity follow point A. Like many wrong belief systems, your arguments contain many non-sequiturs such as this.

.

glad4mercy
Oct 3rd 2013, 04:32 PM
The natural impulses of man are not temptations.



Do you hold that the impulse to sin is natural, Noeb?

Is it natural because man was created with it, or did it come later?


Not clear? Since we agree spiritual death is separation I could not have been talking about spiritual death

SO you think that the impulse to sin existed before the Temptation and fall. So how did it get there? Remember, you said the impulse not only entices us but also impels us.


Noeb- Spiritual death creates an impulse in us to sin,not only enticing us,but literally impelling us." And you know I believe scripture shows it in A&E before they sinned but they had God


im·pel (http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifm-phttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ebreve.giflhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif)tr.v.im·pelled, im·pel·ling, im·pels 1. To urge to action through moral pressure; drive: I was impelled by events to take a stand.
2. To drive forward; propel

What impelled Adam and Eve to sin?

What impelled Paul to sin, according to Romans 7:8?

What impelled Paul to sin according to Romans 7:23?

Did the things mentioned in Romans 7:8 and 7:23 exist in Adam before the fall? IF so, how did they get there?

glad4mercy
Oct 3rd 2013, 05:01 PM
Addition to last post...

God also did not create the impulse to sin in Adam.

So Adam was not created with an impulse to sin. It came later. If you believe that he was created with an impulse to sin, then that means that God put it there, and that is blasphemous and unscriptural.

glad4mercy
Oct 3rd 2013, 05:19 PM
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20

Amen!! God knew that man would fall before He made man, allowed it for His own purposes, and also determined to send His Son to save man from the Fall. Man did not sin because God wanted His Son to be crucified, God sent His Son to be crucified on account of man's sin. The desire of God to send His Son was not the cause of sin, sin is the cause or reason that God sent His Son. You have it backwards...

You say "man sinned so that God could send His Son.

I say "God sent His Son because man sinned."

both events (The sending of Jesus to die and rise and the Fall) were foreknown by God, but the Fall was not caused by God, nor was God's desire to send His Son the reason man fell. It is the opposite, man's fall was the reason why God sent His Son.


Before God said, "Let there be light," it was foreordained for the blood of the Christ to redeem man from death, the power of Satan, the devil. Death is the works of the devil.


The fact that God foreordained the death of Christ does not mean that sin existed from eternity. This is dualism. Sin did not exist in man until after the Fall. Satan was not created sinful, but also fell. The fact that God ordained to send His Son before the foundation of the world does not mean that sin was already present in man, it means that God foreknew it. Again, sin does not exist so that Christ could come and shed His blood, as if the Fall is God's way and means of accomplishing this great work, Christ came to shed His blood because of man's fall and sin.


that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14 The power of death was not with Adam

God did not use Adam as a pawn, causing him to sin and then punishing him for it, to get satan. God created man to have fellowship with Him, that He might love man and be loved by man. God gave Adam freedom, so that love could be free and not forced, and He knew that Adam would fall, but He allowed it so that He could send His Son to redeem man back into a relationship with Him. In other words, God did not create all things as a means to destroy the devil, He could have done that without creating the earth, man, etc. God created all things for His pleasure, and all things were created and made for God's good pleasure.

Signing off for today. Blessings to all.

glad4mercy
Oct 3rd 2013, 08:34 PM
I know that you don't think much about the definitions of men, (though we are supposed to accept your definitions uncritically), but here is what Biblical, orthodox Christianity teaches about sin


Bakers Evangelical dictionary

Sin is a riddle, a mystery, a reality that eludes definition and comprehension. Perhaps we most often think of sin as wrongdoing or transgression of God's law. Sin includes a failure to do what is right. But sin also offends people; it is violence and lovelessness toward other people, and ultimately, rebellion against God. Further, the Bible teaches that sin involves a condition in which the heart is corrupted and inclined toward evil.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/sin.html


Holman Bible Dictionary.

The New Testament view of sin is somewhat more subjective than objective. Jesus taught quite forcefully that sin is a condition of the heart. He traced sin directly to inner motives stating that the sinful thought leading to the overt act is the real sin. The outward deed is actually the fruit of sin. Anger in the heart is the same as murder (Matthew 5:21-22 ). The impure look is tantamount to adultery (Matthew 5:27-28 ). The real defilement in a person stems from the inner person (heart) which is sinful (Matthew 15:18-20 ). Sin, therefore, is understood as involving the essential being of a person, that is, the essential essence of human nature.

http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T5909

Meriam Webster

Definition of SIN


1

a: an offense against religious or moral law

b: an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food>

c: an often serious shortcoming : fault

2

a: transgression of the law of God

b: a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God

Webster's 1913 dictionary defines sin as not only a transgression of the moral law, but also a moral deficiency in the character.

I know you'll probably reject these, but don't forget that I told you that...

Jesus described sin as "that which proceeds out of the heart of man."

Paul spoke of indwelling sin that deceives, takes into captivity, and kills the man in whom it dwells.

glad4mercy
Oct 3rd 2013, 09:53 PM
Note to Noeb

When I post resources and sources like I did in post 232, I want you to understand that I am not saying that I came to my conclusions because I read these sources, and they influenced what I believe. The way I study the Bible is I read it on my own first, ask God to reveal to me what it means, study dilligently, and come to conclusions from the Bible alone as I am led by the Spirit. Then when a question arises regarding the accuracy of my conclusions, then and only then do I consult other sources to see if I am the only one that believes what I believe. You know what? When I check other sources, after I come to my own conclusions, they say the same thing that I do, just as above.

Just so you don't say that I am basing my beliefs on the teachings or definitions of men. I am not basing anything on anything other than what I read in the Bible. It's just that a lot, a tremendous ammount of good scholars, including people who are experts in Christian history and the original languages tend to share the same views that I promote here.

percho
Oct 3rd 2013, 10:48 PM
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5 God is Light.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. Genesis 1:2

Understand this. It would have been impossible for God to have been present upon the earth and it to have been in darkness and without form and void. Spirit the God moving upon the face of the waters and speaking , Let there be light, was God coming/returning in his presence and dividing himself from the darkness that was already present.

Noeb
Oct 3rd 2013, 11:11 PM
The intent of the analogy was not to show that babies are born addicts, the intent of the analogy is that Adam and Eve were created without an inclination to sinRight, because they had God.



You say that sin is not a thing but is an idea or concept.No. Scripture does (noun).

Noeb
Oct 3rd 2013, 11:32 PM
Do you hold that the impulse to sin is natural, Noeb?I stated it very clearly (post 225).



Is it natural because man was created with it, or did it come later?I stated very clearly we were created with it (post 225).



SO you think that the impulse to sin existed before the Temptation and fall.Why do you keep asking me to repeat myself (post 225)? Impulse. Not impulse to sin.



So how did it get there?I stated very clearly we were created with it (post 225).



Remember, you said the impulse not only entices us but also impels us.No you said that. Here it is
Spiritual death creates an impulse in us to sin, not only enticing us, but literally impelling us.I said they had impulses and God so they didn't have to sin. Here it is
I do agree with that but you said, "This can only refer to spiritual death. Spiritual death creates an impulse in us to sin,not only enticing us,but literally impelling us." And you know I believe scripture shows it in A&E before they sinned but they had God.

Can you address post 225 please? you totally ignored the main point that gets to the root of the problem with your theology (because it snowballs from here). Like when the T in TULIP falls, ULIP falls. Here it is again.

"They were created with (impulse) instinct, drives, desire, compulsion, inspiration, stimulation, stimulus, incitement, motivation. They were not robots. They were told to have dominion and guard and protect the kingdom. They were to grow in grace and knowledge to behave like God, like beautiful things, and have a need for food and enjoy the food. What made these temptations was gaining them without and against God -sin. There was nothing wrong with the impulses."

All sin because of what was taken away (God) not because 'some' 'thing' (sin) was added.

ewq1938
Oct 3rd 2013, 11:45 PM
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. (Ro. 5:12)

I hear many people say that there was no death period until Adam sinned.

Was not death a necessary part of nature even before sin? I don't mean that death was a part of human life, but in the animal and plant kingdoms, death is necessary for many species - for example, carnivores. If that's the case, what did God intend for many carnivorous mammals, reptiles, fish, and insects to eat without resulting in the death of another animal? Even plants must have died from omnivores - root vegetables such as carrot must be killed to be eaten. Plus, certain plants such as the tumbleweed rely on death to reproduce.

I think there is a misunderstanding when people think of the Fall. When Adam sinned, I do not believe the laws of nature were changed except for humans.






Consider this:

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Do you know what it means to have dominion over fish? It means to hunt and catch them to eat. It does not mean man captured fish and use them in farming or kept them for pets. A different type of dominion can be had over birds and land animals but in the matter of fish it is easier to understand that it was for hunting and killing for food. It was in the case of the other animals as well but not exclusively as it was for the fish.

ewq1938
Oct 3rd 2013, 11:48 PM
See post 3. I believe that things changed radically after the fall.

Is there scripture to support this belief? That God changed animals desire for meat? That man was unable and did not eat prior to the fall? All I can see is the fall having affected the quality of life for humans not their food source etc.

ewq1938
Oct 4th 2013, 12:16 AM
Gen 3:16 “To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

Prior to the fall childbirth would have been painless this indicates a change in physiology not just the chemical processes of a dietary change.

No it wouldn't have been "painless" there is no evidence at all for such a theory. It says pain was multiplied proving there was pain in childbirth that was going to get worse as a punishment.

ewq1938
Oct 4th 2013, 12:21 AM
If you believe this, then you believe that sickness and disease is good, for He looked at all that He made and it was good.


That is not a reference to every single possible outcome that could occur. God made feces as part of our bodies way or prrocessing food but yet if you are uncareful and contaminate our food then we will have disease.


If sickness and disease is so good, do you think that there will be sickness and disease in heaven?

There will be medicine to be used to heal people so there is something that will need healing at that time.

ewq1938
Oct 4th 2013, 12:45 AM
Nice cross reference! :)

Yet there is no reference of the tree of life in Ez 47:12. Secondly, it cannot be talking about the same thing as Revelation 22 for in the Millenium there will be a temple and in Ezekiel 42-47 there is a temple, yet in Revelation chapters 21- 22, there is no temple. (Rev 21:22)

Also in Ezekiel 47 there is mention of a sea (Ezekiel 47:20), whereas in Revelation 21-22 there is no more sea. (Revelation 21:1)

Quite correct! Those Eze. chapters do not speak of the coming eternity. They are a fictional blueprint for a perfect Godly society under the first covenant. After the second covenant this old blueprint was no longer applicable and would not come to pass. (it isn't prophecy)

ewq1938
Oct 4th 2013, 01:15 AM
Noeb

The reason why humans are called "mortals" is because sin made them subject to death.

Wrong. All humans including Adam was created mortal out of earthly elements designed from the start to return back to thee Earth. Spiritual death known as the second death was the only death related result of the "fall".

ewq1938
Oct 4th 2013, 01:49 AM
All it proves is that man became mortal after the Fall.

You are confusing physical immortality/mortality with spiritual immortality/mortality.

All humans including Adam are created/born as physically mortal bodies. We are also created/born with "immortal" (for lack of a better word) souls and spirits. That changes only when we sin, then we are spiritually mortal and may suffer the second death which is a spiritual death of spirit and soul. If we repent and accept Christ he can wash sin from us and through salvation have immortality.

percho
Oct 4th 2013, 02:35 AM
1 Cor. 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;

(Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,) There is your first man yet without life. At this point there was not life in him. Inanimate. (and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. ) What was in the breath, נְשָׁמָה nĕshamah God breathed into that formed from the ground that gave life that made it living soul? See Genesis 7:22 all which breath of spirit of lives in nostrils of him.

The spirit life of the soul was in the breath of God.

When that spirit/life from God departs the man and returns to God who gave it the flesh and the soul become dead, without life, inanimate. The spirit that is in man see Job 32:8 is not the man it is what give life to the man. It is life through breath from Spirit God. The living God. Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. See also 1 Cor 2:11 YLT for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that is in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.

When Jesus commended his spirit, the spirit of man that is in him, that which gives life, into the hands of his Father, Jesus died.

His inanimate soul lay in Hades, his flesh body that was subject to corruption was put in a borrowed tomb.

glad4mercy took exception with me saying his flesh was subject to corruption. It was subject to corruption yet it did not see corruption for it was raised in three days and three nights. See Acts 13:34
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Scripture can be no clearer than that. His flesh did not see corruption.

Now concerning Samuel. Being the spirit of the man that is in him returns to God who gave it when the man dies See Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

You would not ask the demon woman to bring up the spirit. The spirit that had given life to Samuel had returned to God who gave it.

God told Adam
KJV thou shall surly die.
YLT dying thou dost die
Scripture4all Hebrew interlinear to die you shall die

Die is in that passage twice. What did Adam know about death and dying? Were the bugs immortal? Had he stepped on a bug and squashed it and saw it was dead? The first death to mortals which had been appointed included Adam. However there was the tree of life. When Adam sinned he cut himself off and all after him from the tree of life. Sin brought to man upon the first death, the second death also. He would die cutoff from God. Dead forever. He would need to be redeemed from the second death.

ewq1938
Oct 4th 2013, 05:20 AM
There were no carnivores or omnivores before original sin. Every creature was a vegetarian/herbivore.

That is fundamentally incorrect. God created carnivores and omnivores from the beginning. There is nothing to suggest all living things were vegetarians, in fact all evidence proves the opposite.

ewq1938
Oct 4th 2013, 05:24 AM
Sin brought to man upon the first death

Incorrect. The first death is a natural part of this life and this world:

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Adam was created with death of body body as a natural part of God's plan for him and all humans.



1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:


Adam's human body was NOT the "body that shall be" which means the body he would have to inherit to receive eternal life ie: the spiritual body. This proves even Adam's original flesh body was designed and meant to die.



1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


And the natural body is designed by God to age and die. It is weak and frail and can only last a certain amount of time. Adam and Eve's bodies were NO EXCEPTION to this basic fact about the human body.



1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


Neither Adam not Eve had physical immortality. They were designed by God to live and die, regardless of sin or no sin. Sin only affected the mortality or immortality of the soul. The death Adam's sin brought to us all is spiritual death not physical death of the human body.





the second death also.

That's the only death sin brought us.


Sin brought to man upon the first death

Incorrect. The first death is a natural part of this life and this world:

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Adam was created with death of body body as a natural part of God's plan for him and all humans.



1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:


Adam's human body was NOT the "body that shall be" which means the body he would have to inherit to receive eternal life ie: the spiritual body. This proves even Adam's original flesh body was designed and meant to die.



1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


And the natural body is designed by God to age and die. It is weak and frail and can only last a certain amount of time. Adam and Eve's bodies were NO EXCEPTION to this basic fact about the human body.



1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


Neither Adam not Eve had physical immortality. They were designed by God to live and die, regardless of sin or no sin. Sin only affected the mortality or immortality of the soul. The death Adam's sin brought to us all is spiritual death not physical death of the human body.





the second death also.

That's the only death sin brought us.

Noeb
Oct 4th 2013, 05:36 AM
Adam's human body was NOT the "body that shall be" which means the body he would have to inherit to receive eternal life ie: the spiritual body. This proves even Adam's original flesh body was designed and meant to die.There you are. How've you been? :wave: Now that a bigger nut (joke) has shown up maybe g4m will leave me alone. :spin:

glad4mercy
Oct 4th 2013, 03:51 PM
Right, because they had God.


No. Scripture does (noun).

Where?

(15 characters)

glad4mercy
Oct 4th 2013, 04:06 PM
There you are. How've you been? :wave: Now that a bigger nut (joke) has shown up maybe g4m will leave me alone. :spin:

I tried to leave you alone a long time ago, but you kept using non sequiturs, confusion of terms, invalid rhetorical questions, and straw men arguments to try to debunk the sound Biblical doctrine (not systematic theology as you wrongly said) that I have presented here. I felt if I left them unchallenged it would ammount to agreeing with you, so I had to respond. If you want me to shut up, let's just agree to disagree. As long as you keep misrepresenting my position, I feel inclined ;)to respond.

I have shown that...

a. The statement "sin is not a thing" is nothing more than a straw man argument, because I never said sin was a thing as in a tangible object. You keep attacking a concept (straw man) that I never presented in order to avoid what I'm really saying. Even if the "sin is not a thing" statement is true, it doesnt affect anything that I've said here, so this statement has no substance and adds nothing to the discussion whatsoever.

b. I have shown contradiction in your statements, where in one place you said that God created death, and in another you said that "death is not a thing that it should be created". Well I never said death was a tangible thing, but it does exist as seperation from the body, just as spiritual death exists as seperation from God.

c. I have shown the utter folly in your statement that God created man with "an impulse to sin". You said that impulse existed before the fall, and I said who put it there, and you said God did. This is obviously absolutely fallacious, and it shows that your systematic theology is causing you to make such statements such as "man was created with an impulse to sin."

d. You have presented very few scriptures to prove your point. All of your refutations consist rhetorical questions, such as "if sin exists, where is it that I may find it", non sequiturs that border on the obscene (science has found no thing called sin in man", as if science is infallible proof that something does not exist), confusion of terms (death is not a thing, that it should exist, as if only "things" that are tangible exist), etc.

e. Where does it say in the Bible that sin as a noun is nothing more than an idea or concept. Show me a scripture that explicitely states this

glad4mercy
Oct 4th 2013, 04:14 PM
You are confusing physical immortality/mortality with spiritual immortality/mortality.

All humans including Adam are created/born as physically mortal bodies. We are also created/born with "immortal" (for lack of a better word) souls and spirits. That changes only when we sin, then we are spiritually mortal and may suffer the second death which is a spiritual death of spirit and soul. If we repent and accept Christ he can wash sin from us and through salvation have immortality.

So you agree with Noeb that Adam was created with a mortal body, and only the tree of life was keeping him alive.

DO you then hold that the death that Paul speaks of in Romans 5:12 is spiritual death, not physical death? Your answer to this would be much appreciated.

I am not so troubled about this "physical mortality before the fall position, (if that was the only area of disagreement, I would have agreed to disagree with Noeb long ago, and not continued nearly this long.) I can easily agree to disagree with you and Noeb on this, and trust that if I am wrong, God will show me as I continue to study the scriptures. What really troubles me about what Noeb is saying is the denial of sin as anything more than an idea or concept. How do you understand the "indwelling sin" that Paul is speaking of in Romans 7?

The question of "when did man of become physically mortal?" is not an essential doctrine IMO. But a correct understanding of sin, and the redemption from it is absolutely vital and essential IMO. That is why I am so persistent in posting here. I would not be this persistent about a non essential doctrine. To me, Noeb's definition of sin throws a lot of other Biblical concepts into confusion, ( as evidenced his apparent statement that man had an impulse to sin before the fall, and that God was the one who put it there)