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Brother Paul
Sep 21st 2013, 05:53 AM
What is ordination

A recent thread has led me to ask what others think…don’t answer until you read all five questions and think about it a bit…thanks!

If a person graduates Bible School or attends a Seminary are they somehow more qualified in God’s eyes to minister to the flock or to the unsaved?

Does approval by an institution or denominational organization actually constitute qualifications for actual ordination?

Because a person graduates Bible School or Seminary are they automatically born of God?

What constitutes being “ordained” in God’s word?

Who ordains and what is required?

Take your time but please weigh in…

In His love
Brother Paul

Walls
Sep 21st 2013, 12:13 PM
The advantage of a Bible School education is that in the better, or more renowned schools, one gets the benefit of a structured education with inputs from a vast array of sources.

The disadvantage of a Bible School education is that every single bible school in the world subscribes to a certain doctrine, and this is taught as truth, stunting the education of the scholar. If he/she does not agree with a certain doctrine he/she will fail the exams set forth for the qualification. Thus, no Bible School student is truly qualified by the Lord, but by men.

The Bible has only one indication of any type of schooling outside the Local Church. That is, Paul's classrooms in Acts 28:23-31. Otherwise the Local Church, with its gifted ones, especially the teachers, are responsible for this education. It is, in 1 Timothy 3:15, "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

I think the best education would be an accredited Bible College followed by another 4-8 years of personal study independent of any learning institute. But I fear that the Bible College will forever cement its questionable doctrines in the mind of the student, and leave him/her closed to radical change, should it be required.

The short answer is that Bible Colleges are unknown to scripture. The Church is responsible. But it would seem, based on history, starting with Paul, that the Lord used men who had some form of formal education for discovering or recovering the greater truths, even if they had to overthrow most of what they learned formally. E.g. the Plymouth Brethren with its array of scholars each challenging everything everybody else said.

There is also no authority but the Holy Spirit Who can give a man or woman any ministry. Ordination by men after the last of the Apostles is unknown to scripture.

episkopos
Sep 21st 2013, 12:35 PM
Ordination is by the choice of God by the Spirit.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


Men can also be moved by the Spirit to confirm a man in ordination. But we don't see this very much because of the rarity of apostles and that level of ministry.

God Personally anoints and prepares His workers to do His will with or without an intermediary.

Boo
Sep 21st 2013, 01:14 PM
Take for example Dwight L. Moody had only a fifth grade education, no bible college, and no ordination. He became one of the leading evangelists of the 19th century.

Charles Finny never went to seminary (it is said that the church prepared him) but he was ordained by the church to teach for them.

Beware of any institution that teaches you their doctrine. Learn what the bible says, fully, before you decide that you land on the truth.

Let God put you to work. Sadly, people now believe that it takes some kind of certificate to qualify a preacher. It does not - it takes the Holy Spirit. People won't wish to believe that.

The Pastor of the Brooklyn Tabernacle, Jim Cymbala, never went to seminary. Yet, that church has spawned several other churches and shepherds thousands every week.

I think one of our forum members can tell you about the Blacksmith Preacher - famous throughout Tennessee and Kentucky. She is kin to him and he was never at seminary either.

It is sad to see those who can do God's work ignored today for the lack of a certificate. We are supposed to know our bibles to determine is a preacher is true or not. I guess we don't want to; we'll use their diploma instead.

Redeemed by Grace
Sep 21st 2013, 01:36 PM
What is ordination

A recent thread has led me to ask what others think…don’t answer until you read all five questions and think about it a bit…thanks!

If a person graduates Bible School or attends a Seminary are they somehow more qualified in God’s eyes to minister to the flock or to the unsaved?

Does approval by an institution or denominational organization actually constitute qualifications for actual ordination?

Because a person graduates Bible School or Seminary are they automatically born of God?

What constitutes being “ordained” in God’s word?

Who ordains and what is required?

Take your time but please weigh in…

In His love
Brother Paul

In simple terms, I've seen it used by a local group of believers [the local church] to recognize the gift of preaching and teaching of the gospel, so as to be under the protection and authority of the local church body. ie, He represents the understandings of the local body and can speak/represent with the local church's endorsement as well as train and teach the local body.


What is ordination

A recent thread has led me to ask what others think…don’t answer until you read all five questions and think about it a bit…thanks!

If a person graduates Bible School or attends a Seminary are they somehow more qualified in God’s eyes to minister to the flock or to the unsaved?

Does approval by an institution or denominational organization actually constitute qualifications for actual ordination?

Because a person graduates Bible School or Seminary are they automatically born of God?

What constitutes being “ordained” in God’s word?

Who ordains and what is required?

Take your time but please weigh in…

In His love
Brother Paul

In simple terms, I've seen it used by a local group of believers [the local church] to recognize the gift of preaching and teaching of the gospel, so as to be under the protection and authority of the local church body. ie, He represents the understandings of the local body and can speak/represent with the local church's endorsement as well as train and teach the local body.

episkopos
Sep 21st 2013, 01:50 PM
In simple terms, I've seen it used by a local group of believers [the local church] to recognize the gift of preaching and teaching of the gospel, so as to be under the protection and authority of the local church body. ie, He represents the understandings of the local body and can speak/represent with the local church's endorsement as well as train and teach the local body.



In simple terms, I've seen it used by a local group of believers [the local church] to recognize the gift of preaching and teaching of the gospel, so as to be under the protection and authority of the local church body. ie, He represents the understandings of the local body and can speak/represent with the local church's endorsement as well as train and teach the local body.

How does one guard against "heaping up teachers for ourselves?"

LandShark
Sep 21st 2013, 02:29 PM
What is ordination

A recent thread has led me to ask what others think…don’t answer until you read all five questions and think about it a bit…thanks!

If a person graduates Bible School or attends a Seminary are they somehow more qualified in God’s eyes to minister to the flock or to the unsaved?

Does approval by an institution or denominational organization actually constitute qualifications for actual ordination?

Because a person graduates Bible School or Seminary are they automatically born of God?

What constitutes being “ordained” in God’s word?

Who ordains and what is required?

Take your time but please weigh in…

In His love
Brother Paul

I believe it is God and God alone who ordains a man (or woman) to do a certain work. At our congregation, myself and the other 2 elders will simply watch the congregation and see who begins to act in a certain capacity. For example, we had an elder move to another state and needed to replace him. We waited many months until we were sure that God had raised another individual for that work. We didn't have to discuss anything with anyone, by observation (and then by verifying through prayer) we installed the man who was already performing the role of a shepherd... it was clear he was already doing the work of an elder. Our "ordination service" was a formality, God had already called him.


What is ordination

A recent thread has led me to ask what others think…don’t answer until you read all five questions and think about it a bit…thanks!

If a person graduates Bible School or attends a Seminary are they somehow more qualified in God’s eyes to minister to the flock or to the unsaved?

Does approval by an institution or denominational organization actually constitute qualifications for actual ordination?

Because a person graduates Bible School or Seminary are they automatically born of God?

What constitutes being “ordained” in God’s word?

Who ordains and what is required?

Take your time but please weigh in…

In His love
Brother Paul

I believe it is God and God alone who ordains a man (or woman) to do a certain work. At our congregation, myself and the other 2 elders will simply watch the congregation and see who begins to act in a certain capacity. For example, we had an elder move to another state and needed to replace him. We waited many months until we were sure that God had raised another individual for that work. We didn't have to discuss anything with anyone, by observation (and then by verifying through prayer) we installed the man who was already performing the role of a shepherd... it was clear he was already doing the work of an elder. Our "ordination service" was a formality, God had already called him.

Brother Paul
Sep 22nd 2013, 12:26 AM
Walls...you said

"I think the best education would be an accredited Bible College followed by another 4-8 years of personal study independent of any learning institute."

I would reverse the order....after 4-8 years of sincere personal study and hearing the word preached in various churches then a Bible School education can be useful but if the other way around the student can too easily be persuaded through the dialectic and rhetorical technique applied to cut and paste Bible quotes which ignore or re-interpret those passages which appear to refute their position.

I would reverse the order...but in truth, only God ordains and only His ordination counts as far as I can tell in scripture. If God calls you to preach or teach do it in whatever capacity He opens for you and if some denomination refuses to recognize your divine appointment it is their loss.

In His love

Brother Paul

Walls...you said

"I think the best education would be an accredited Bible College followed by another 4-8 years of personal study independent of any learning institute."

I would reverse the order....after 4-8 years of sincere personal study and hearing the word preached in various churches then a Bible School education can be useful but if the other way around the student can too easily be persuaded through the dialectic and rhetorical technique applied to cut and paste Bible quotes which ignore or re-interpret those passages which appear to refute their position.

I would reverse the order...but in truth, only God ordains and only His ordination counts as far as I can tell in scripture. If God calls you to preach or teach do it in whatever capacity He opens for you and if some denomination refuses to recognize your divine appointment it is their loss.

In His love

Brother Paul

Reynolds357
Sep 22nd 2013, 01:35 AM
The best pastors and evangelists I know were not seminary educated. Some of the most worthless ones I know hold Doctorate degrees. Not a universal statement, but just observation of what I have personally experienced.

watchinginawe
Sep 22nd 2013, 04:21 AM
If a person graduates Bible School or attends a Seminary are they somehow more qualified in God’s eyes to minister to the flock or to the unsaved? Maybe, probably. We can't "look through God's eyes" to really know what God feels makes one more qualified. The question seems to state an opinion in the way it is worded though. Would it be less valid to ask: Does Bible School or Seminary help to prepare one for ministry? If ministry consists of some certain teachable aspects, then disciplines of learning in that regard should prove to make one more qualified.

Does approval by an institution or denominational organization actually constitute qualifications for actual ordination? I like Redeemed By Grace's answer to this question. I am not opposed to a method of granting ministerial credentials by institutions or organizations. To the extent that the method of credentialing ministers consists of examination and/or possession of qualifications, then yes. Also, if there are abuses performed by a minister, then accountability to an institution or organization is also valuable.

Because a person graduates Bible School or Seminary are they automatically born of God? Of course not. I was shocked as a young Christian a few (few) years back when I read a poll about how many in the "professional clergy" didn't believe in God. Huh? So yes, there is prevalent in the world the thought that ministry is a chosen and trained profession, but that doesn't mean there can't be those who are called into the ministry and prepare and/or are credentialed through institutions and organizations.

What constitutes being “ordained” in God’s word? Who ordains and what is required? Perhaps something like 1 Timothy 4, with emphasis on verse 14. Ultimately God ordains.

I also wanted to offer this passage, which I think would be an example of how training can help us in ministry. This is the kind of training we all need:

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

ChangedByHim
Sep 22nd 2013, 03:05 PM
Seminary or Bible college is in no way a prerequisite or requirement for entrance into fivefold ministry. It is God who calls, not man. However, these are simply tools that God uses with many individuals. Personally, I spent five years studying the word of God from 5 to 8 hours a day before I went to Bible College. I believe that my true education came during those times, not at Bible College. Yet, the experience at school was something that God used to help further my development.

If God calls, there is nothing that man can do to take away from it. If God does not call, there is nothing man can do to add to it.

Walls
Sep 24th 2013, 08:52 AM
Walls...you said

"I think the best education would be an accredited Bible College followed by another 4-8 years of personal study independent of any learning institute."

I would reverse the order....after 4-8 years of sincere personal study and hearing the word preached in various churches then a Bible School education can be useful but if the other way around the student can too easily be persuaded through the dialectic and rhetorical technique applied to cut and paste Bible quotes which ignore or re-interpret those passages which appear to refute their position.

I would reverse the order...but in truth, only God ordains and only His ordination counts as far as I can tell in scripture. If God calls you to preach or teach do it in whatever capacity He opens for you and if some denomination refuses to recognize your divine appointment it is their loss.

In His love

Brother Paul



I would agree with you.

Boo
Sep 24th 2013, 09:19 AM
Seminary doesn't teach me what to think. Seminary teaches me how to collect thoughts and put them onto paper. It teaches me how to deal with people as Jesus did. It causes me to open my eyes by asking tough questions.

It teaches me about laws that govern tax-exempt organizations and details of operating a church within the law.

It teaches recommendations for dealing with alcoholics and drug addicts.

The bible teaches me what to think when I prayerfully examine what all the scriptures collectively say.

There is much danger is obtaining doctrines from a seminary. They can teach one only what a denomination holds true which is not necessarily what God says.

Seminary is useful, but God can let us bypass it if He chooses to. There is a lot to be learned there, but we can do God's work without it.

It is state law that uses an ordination to establish a person's position in regard to their laws. A group can accept a person as a spiritual leader without one.

luigi
Sep 24th 2013, 11:53 AM
Seminary doesn't teach me what to think. Seminary teaches me how to collect thoughts and put them onto paper. It teaches me how to deal with people as Jesus did. It causes me to open my eyes by asking tough questions.

It teaches me about laws that govern tax-exempt organizations and details of operating a church within the law.

It teaches recommendations for dealing with alcoholics and drug addicts.

The bible teaches me what to think when I prayerfully examine what all the scriptures collectively say.

There is much danger is obtaining doctrines from a seminary. They can teach one only what a denomination holds true which is not necessarily what God says.

Seminary is useful, but God can let us bypass it if He chooses to. There is a lot to be learned there, but we can do God's work without it.

It is state law that uses an ordination to establish a person's position in regard to their laws. A group can accept a person as a spiritual leader without one.

There will also come a time when those things created (ordained) by man, will be shaken, so that those things which cannot be shaken (ordained by God) remain...(Heb 12:27).

Reynolds357
Sep 24th 2013, 01:38 PM
Brother Paul, why an accredited Bible College? Some of the better Bible colleges I know are not accredited. Accredidation is important in a secular degree. Bible College is a bit different. You do not need to study 2 years of liberal arts, math, sciences, etc. before beginning seminary training. You can go to a 4 year Bible college that teaches Bible and Biblical studies for 4 years and come out with much more knowledge than wasting 2+ on liberal arts. In hindsight, I definitely consider the liberal arts part of my education as a waste of time.

Boo
Sep 25th 2013, 11:54 AM
Accredited = judged by possibly non-believers as appropriately teaching the subject matter. It is a matter of state perspective.

Of course, to some that might be "known," "popular," or perhaps just a big school with large classrooms.

A school of just two people - with the teacher a devoted person of God - is sufficient for teaching if the student really wants to learn. However, nobody will recognize his diploma.

Anyone know of a church who will hire a preacher without a diploma?

ChangedByHim
Sep 25th 2013, 04:32 PM
Accredited = judged by possibly non-believers as appropriately teaching the subject matter. It is a matter of state perspective.

Of course, to some that might be "known," "popular," or perhaps just a big school with large classrooms.

A school of just two people - with the teacher a devoted person of God - is sufficient for teaching if the student really wants to learn. However, nobody will recognize his diploma.

Anyone know of a church who will hire a preacher without a diploma?

A preacher doesn't need to be hired by anyone. Hiring is for hirelings. If God has called someone... they preach. If they are anointed... people come...

In this country, the number of churches per capita has dropped 60% over the past 100 years. There are 200 million unchurched people in America.

If someone is called, start a church in the area of need, where the burden of the Holy Spirit has called them.

No Diploma Required.

Boo
Sep 25th 2013, 11:27 PM
A preacher doesn't need to be hired by anyone. Hiring is for hirelings. If God has called someone... they preach. If they are anointed... people come...

In this country, the number of churches per capita has dropped 60% over the past 100 years. There are 200 million unchurched people in America.

If someone is called, start a church in the area of need, where the burden of the Holy Spirit has called them.

No Diploma Required.

Great, then the preacher doesn't need to be paid. He wasn't hired in the first place. So why are people arguing over the tithe?

Full time professional clergy is not a God ordained effort. It is entirely man made.

ChangedByHim
Sep 25th 2013, 11:39 PM
L
Great, then the preacher doesn't need to be paid. He wasn't hired in the first place. So why are people arguing over the tithe?

Full time professional clergy is not a God ordained effort. It is entirely man made.

Your post directly conflicts with the New Testament. Would you like for me to list off the scriptures?

Basically, I think that you just disagree with every post I make because I call you out on the fact that you think half the books of the NT are not inspired by the Holy Spirit. So be it.

Boo
Sep 25th 2013, 11:59 PM
L

Your post directly conflicts with the New Testament. Would you like for me to list off the scriptures?

Basically, I think that you just disagree with every post I make because I call you out on the fact that you think half the books of the NT are not inspired by the Holy Spirit. So be it.

No, actually it doesn't. If you are referring to the scriptures about how a teacher should enjoy the fruits of his labor, I am already aware of that. However, being housed and fed by those you teach is a bit different than getting a paycheck, health insurance, and a 401K. Paul would not accept their money for employment. We find him working at his trade to support himself so that he would not economically burden those to whom he preached. How many evangelists do that today?

The church was supposed to be run by the Elders, not a Pastor. A Pastor is only a Shepherd. He doesn't even necessarily require the gifts of teaching and preaching. Until the office state church was set up in the fourth century, paid clergy was not the standard.

You are not calling anyone out. You are merely making insinuations. Just because you don't understand things the same way I do does not indicate that I am wrong.

Tell me why you say that preachers aren't hired. Why do you think churches write pay checks and deposit money with health insurance companies, withhold taxes, and put money into a retirement fund for their preachers.

No, I disagree with you a lot because I don't agree with you a lot. I can't help that.

ChangedByHim
Sep 26th 2013, 12:09 AM
I wouldn't know boo, I don't get either health insurance or a 401k, and I live week to week.

And yes, I will probably never see eye to eye either with someone who doesn't believe that the entire Bible is inspired.

Boo
Sep 26th 2013, 12:15 AM
I wouldn't know boo, I don't get either health insurance or a 401k, and I live week to week.

And yes, I will probably never see eye to eye either with someone who doesn't believe that the entire Bible is inspired.

There is a difference (even if you don't want to admit it) between "the bible is inspired" and "every word in the bible came form God."

Those two do not mean the same thing. Your arguments have proved that you don't believe that every word came from God either.

If you did, you and I would agree on Baptism.

ChangedByHim
Sep 26th 2013, 12:19 AM
There is a difference (even if you don't want to admit it) between "the bible is inspired" and "every word in the bible came form God."

Those two do not mean the same thing. Your arguments have proved that you don't believe that every word came from God either.

If you did, you and I would agree on Baptism.

Every single word is inspired by God.

I have read you state that some of what Paul wrote in the NT is just his opinion and not the Holy Spirit's inspiration. I have also read where you have said that Paul contradicted Jesus on more than one passage.

To me, this is blasphemy. Total blasphemy.

ChangedByHim
Sep 26th 2013, 12:32 AM
Every single word is inspired by God.

I have read you state that some of what Paul wrote in the NT is just his opinion and not the Holy Spirit's inspiration. I have also read where you have said that Paul contradicted Jesus on more than one passage.

To me, this is blasphemy. Total blasphemy.

And just because someone may be incorrect in a belief, including myself, does not mean that they believe that the Bible is in error, like you do. It's not the the same thing by any stretch.

Reynolds357
Sep 26th 2013, 02:00 AM
Accredited = judged by possibly non-believers as appropriately teaching the subject matter. It is a matter of state perspective.

Of course, to some that might be "known," "popular," or perhaps just a big school with large classrooms.

A school of just two people - with the teacher a devoted person of God - is sufficient for teaching if the student really wants to learn. However, nobody will recognize his diploma.

Anyone know of a church who will hire a preacher without a diploma?

I know a lot of churches who hire pastors who have not attended seminaries or have attended non-accredited seminaries and Bible colleges.


Accredited = judged by possibly non-believers as appropriately teaching the subject matter. It is a matter of state perspective.

Of course, to some that might be "known," "popular," or perhaps just a big school with large classrooms.

A school of just two people - with the teacher a devoted person of God - is sufficient for teaching if the student really wants to learn. However, nobody will recognize his diploma.

Anyone know of a church who will hire a preacher without a diploma?

I know a lot of churches who hire pastors who have not attended seminaries or have attended non-accredited seminaries and Bible colleges.

Reynolds357
Sep 26th 2013, 02:02 AM
There is a difference (even if you don't want to admit it) between "the bible is inspired" and "every word in the bible came form God."

Those two do not mean the same thing. Your arguments have proved that you don't believe that every word came from God either.

If you did, you and I would agree on Baptism.
What parts are inspired? The red words?
I fail to see how anyone would not Believe Pauls writing to be inspired and inerrant.


There is a difference (even if you don't want to admit it) between "the bible is inspired" and "every word in the bible came form God."

Those two do not mean the same thing. Your arguments have proved that you don't believe that every word came from God either.

If you did, you and I would agree on Baptism.
What parts are inspired? The red words?
I fail to see how anyone would not Believe Pauls writing to be inspired and inerrant.

Ceegen
Sep 26th 2013, 02:14 AM
What is ordination

A recent thread has led me to ask what others think…don’t answer until you read all five questions and think about it a bit…thanks!

If a person graduates Bible School or attends a Seminary are they somehow more qualified in God’s eyes to minister to the flock or to the unsaved?

Does approval by an institution or denominational organization actually constitute qualifications for actual ordination?

Because a person graduates Bible School or Seminary are they automatically born of God?

What constitutes being “ordained” in God’s word?

Who ordains and what is required?

Take your time but please weigh in…

In His love
Brother Paul

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness." - 1st Corinthians ch3 v19.

Titles and degrees, licenses and ordination? What good do they do? Unless they are done in good faith for the benefit of God with all glory to Him, they are nothing more than pieces of paper that comfort us in a false sense of accomplishment. Plus, we are warned of wolves in sheep's clothing, and the hireling who flees in times of trouble because he does not care for the sheep. As a result, I for one do not trust in titles and pieces of paper.

Boo
Sep 26th 2013, 09:37 AM
Every single word is inspired by God.

I have read you state that some of what Paul wrote in the NT is just his opinion and not the Holy Spirit's inspiration. I have also read where you have said that Paul contradicted Jesus on more than one passage.

To me, this is blasphemy. Total blasphemy.

Then I would say that you don't understand something that is very important.

Boo
Sep 26th 2013, 09:45 AM
What parts are inspired? The red words?
I fail to see how anyone would not Believe Pauls writing to be inspired and inerrant.


What parts are inspired? The red words?
I fail to see how anyone would not Believe Pauls writing to be inspired and inerrant.

Much of what Paul said came from God.

Everything Paul said was true.

Not everything Paul said was meant for us.

This is what I am saying. Paul was capable of being wrong (when compared to what God had previously said or done), but he always told the truth. Paul was not divine. Not everything he said came from God. Some of the things Paul said came only from Paul.

The context and the rest of scripture will illustrate those times.

ChangedByHim
Sep 26th 2013, 11:45 AM
Paul was not divine
Moses was not divine
Daniel was not divine
John was not divine
Jonah was not divine
David was not divine
Peter was not divine
Luke was not divine
Et al

But everything - EVERY WORD - recorded in their writings, which is included in the canon of Scripture is 100% divinely inspired.

You say that everything Paul said was true but you claim that he contradicted Jesus. How can this be?

Curtis
Sep 26th 2013, 12:06 PM
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Paul or any of the Apostles never wrote anything. It all came by the Holy Spirit. If there is something we don't understand its not the fault of the scriptures, its because we need clarification from God the Father, he's the one who spoke it. Ask him, he will tell you.

watchinginawe
Sep 26th 2013, 02:00 PM
Paul or any of the Apostles never wrote anything. It all came by the Holy Spirit. If there is something we don't understand its not the fault of the scriptures, its because we need clarification from God the Father, he's the one who spoke it. Ask him, he will tell you. Curtis, when Paul expresses his feelings in his writings, are they genuine?

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

Or Paul's requests, were they genuine or do they have some kind of hidden future meaning that can be unlocked with further clarification from God?

Philemon 1:18 If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account; 19 I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides.

Don't get me wrong, these are Scripture. But we have to understand that Paul was the author. Else why would we even care who the author was of any Scripture?

Scripture is not always God's conversation with us. Sometimes Scripture is a narrative retelling of events which aren't spoken by God, but rather is a presentation by witnesses, even to the point that the trustworthiness of the witness is to be considered with the narrative. What value does the following have if it isn't the truth spoken by John?

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

There is process in the above that is extremely important. John is explaining the process of inspiration by which he says that Jesus was speaking of His body and not the physical temple.


Paul or any of the Apostles never wrote anything. I think that is too wooden a statement, that is my point here. The issue is whether if Paul's or John's (or any other Biblical author's) writings could be considered Scripture if anywhere they contained words formed by their thoughts and processes and weren't word for word thoughts and processes of God merely transmitted by the authors. Personally, I don't think a maturing viewpoint in this area is a doubting viewpoint. To me, I can see Paul travailing in birth of the Galatian believers as he writes, that is Paul. Why would I depersonalize that by a wooden dogma? (that last part is not meant to be malicious, but rather descriptive in process of reading, enjoying, interpreting, teaching, etc. of Scripture; please don't read into it sharp disagreement)

shepherdsword
Sep 26th 2013, 04:00 PM
Great, then the preacher doesn't need to be paid. He wasn't hired in the first place. So why are people arguing over the tithe?

Full time professional clergy is not a God ordained effort. It is entirely man made.

Brother,full time minsters are not a man made tradition. While the Lord has yet to call me into this type of service I am under the impression that such a call will one day come. Paul made it clear that there are people who the church is required to support.

Here we see the church supports some who are not even in ministry at all:

1Ti 5:16 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.


Here we see elders that labor in studying and finding out God's will in the word:

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Here we see that such men are worthy of support and they,like the Ox,should not be excluded from partaking of the fruits that come from their labor:

1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

I readily admit that there are cases where ministers should be self-supporting. Paul himself made tents to relieve the church from supporting him. However,he also mentions that both he and Barnabas had the authority to forbear working and receive support. Your blanket statement that full time ministers are a man made creation is very judgmental. I personally know men that have given up very successful careers to go into full time ministry by the Lord's call. My mentor could have had a six figure salary( in the 1960s) if he refused the Lord's call to go full time. Granted,there are men who are self called(or called by other men) and not by the Lord. This does not mean that all full time ministers are self called.

About the OP,

I think the only qualification necessary is to be called by Jesus into this type of service. There is no harm(and much benefit) by formal accredited bible training but it is not required. The anointing of the Holy Spirit is.

Slug1
Sep 26th 2013, 04:12 PM
Great, then the preacher doesn't need to be paid. He wasn't hired in the first place. So why are people arguing over the tithe?

Full time professional clergy is not a God ordained effort. It is entirely man made.Boo, God called me into fulltime ministry since about 2009. I was an elder, then an associate pastor and now the lead pastor of a church while the Bishops above me in the organization figure out what they are gonna do since our senior pastor resigned a couple months ago. I have never received a penny for what God has me do. Once, as a guest speaker, I did receive a $50 "love" offering. All I do is what God tells me to do and here I am in the position in the Body of Christ I find myself. All I do, to include the work I do for this message board is only because God TELLS me what I am to do and... I am obedient. God provides for my needs in another way as employment... but since 2009, I am fully working in the church God placed me to serve Him.

ChangedByHim
Sep 26th 2013, 04:26 PM
I'm not really sure how any verse in the Bible could be any clearer than this one:

1 Cor 9:14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.

Boo
Sep 26th 2013, 11:32 PM
Paul was not divine
Moses was not divine
Daniel was not divine
John was not divine
Jonah was not divine
David was not divine
Peter was not divine
Luke was not divine
Et al

But everything - EVERY WORD - recorded in their writings, which is included in the canon of Scripture is 100% divinely inspired.

You say that everything Paul said was true but you claim that he contradicted Jesus. How can this be?

True means that he was not lying. He told the truth. He wasn't always speaking for God.

You do know that even Paul told us that truth comes only when we have at least two witnesses.

That is even further confirmed by Jesus.

No doctrine should ever be established without the words being given in at least two places.

We fight over doctrines. How many of them were derived from the writing of only one person and never confirmed by a second one? If a second person does not make a supporting statement to confirm a thing that is said, then it does not meet the requirement of having a second witness. Therefore, the thing that was said was for only a few people and not for everyone.

Our mistake is taking everything said as if it were presented as God's truth for everyone when in reality, it was never confirmed by a second witness as being so.

Paul knew that as well as anyone.

Matt 18:16 (ESV)

But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

John 8:17-18 (ESV)

In your Law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me."

2 Cor 13:1 (ESV)

This is the third time I am coming to you. Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

1 Tim 5:19 (ESV)

Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

Now, give some thought to this -

The doctrines you hold - are they all confirmed by at least two witnesses? I'd bet that many of them are.

How many of them are issues with great dispute? How many of them come from only one author in the bible and are never confirmed by a second author or speaker? How many ideas that are turned into divisive doctrines are spoken of in only one book of the bible? Ever consider that it is in only one because it is only for one group? If it is found in two books, are they both from only one writer - no second witness? That is because it is an instruction for someone else from only one person. It is not from God for everyone.

Seriously, think about it.

Part of determining context and reason start with deciding is there is more than one witness. If there are, chances are that it is a serious issue from God. If there aren't, look at the possible reasons that it is being said and to whom.