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View Full Version : Discussion Whose goings forth are from of old.... Pre incarnation existence....



MaryFreeman
Sep 30th 2013, 12:08 AM
John 1:1


John 1


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


2 The same was in the beginning with God.


3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


I aim in this thread to prove on pain of.... Uh.... I don't know....


I first want to ask that guidelines be agreed on for this thread that include the basic forum rules.... And such guidlines as the following:


1: Always back up assertions with scripture.... 2: Strive for peace and edification.... 3: Put others first.... Please don't assault integrity.... Please don't condescend.... Please don't insult intelligence.... Please don't.... Please don't.... Please don't....


Nuff said.... Onward and upward....


I wish to present the case for Christ's pre existence as best I can.... I am not a theologian.... I am not a bible scholar.... I am an avid lover of Christ and have sought Him for the past 28 years (wow I am dating myself there.... Remember parachute pants? I do)....


I wish to make some points I feel are relevant here starting with the OT and moving on to the NT....


1: THE GENESIS "US":


26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


I am going to look at two words that explain the "Us" in verse 26 as best as I think it can be explained....


H430


Original: אלהים Transliteration: 'ĕlhı ym Phonetic: el-o-heem' BDB Definition:


1. (plural) a. rulers, judges b. divine ones c. angels d. gods 2. (plural intensive - singular meaning) a. god, goddess b. godlike one c. works or special possessions of God d. the (true) God e. God.


Usually the most often used tense is the first tense in a definition.... So we can safely and logically conclude there were more than one of the Trinity present.... As Elohiym is plural.... The second tense does not fit quite as well.... This word is the plural of another word....


H433


הּלא הּולא


Original:


Transliteration: 'ĕlahh 'ĕlahh Phonetic: el-o'-ah rarely (shortened) 'eloahh el-o'-ah BDB Definition:


1. God 2. false god


Origin: probably prolonged (emphat.) from H410 TWOT entry: 93b Part(s) of speech: Noun Masculine


An interesting note:


The prophet Isaiah uses this word:


H3069


Original: יהוה Transliteration: yehvih Phonetic: yeh-ho-vee' BDB Definition:


1. Jehovah - used primarily in the combination 'Lord Jehovah'


Origin: a variation of (H3068)


All are the same for God yet in the sense of the Genesis "Us" the plural is used.... Denoting at least two persons of the Trinity.... Not One speaking and answering Himself.... Two people (I hope you understand my meaning when I say people)....


So which One was speaking?


In John 1:1-3 we see John proclaiming that Jesus was the one by whose hand this big blue marble was created.... Jesus made the third rock from the sun and all the other rocks.... Was he called Jesus?


No.... No he was not....


Does it matter?


Nope.... Because He is singled out by the fact that His hands created everything.... So His mouth spoke the Genesis "Us".... And because those two things are true.... We can come to the logical conclusion that He was talking to the other Person present....


Or should I say.... The other two?


Go back to the beginning of beginnings....


Genesis 1 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


You could say that these two persons are the two present at creation and thus are the Genesis "Us".... But I don't think creation was an event God the Father would miss out on.... Do you?


Safe to assume the Father was present with His Son and His Spirit.... Regardless of their name or what One would be called later....


2: THE ANGEL OF GOD:


Interestingly enough.... Elohyim also means angels (ref. def. 1c).... But there is a special "Angel" seen throughout the old testament.... Let me show you....


Judges 13: 18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?


Michael and Gabriel gave their names.... Of all the heirarchy of Heaven above only Gods names are secret.... We do not know all of them.... I will post NT scripture that shows this after we finish this story....


19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the LORD: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.


20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.


21 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.


22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die,[u] because we have seen God.


Same word.... Elohyim.... This is when they saw that they weren't looking at just an angel.... But that they had seen the second person of the Trinity....


23 But his wife said unto him, If the LORD were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these things, nor would as at this time have told us such things as these.


This is but one instance where the Angel (not merely an angel but THE Angel) of the Lord shows up.... And He accepts tribute and sacrifices.... Unto Himself.... And does exactly the same thing Jesus does in the NT.... Will not say who He is or reveal that he is more than just an angel.... Not where Jesus says things like "Why do ye call me good? No one is good but the Father".... "See ye tell no one".... Yet when Menoah and his wife insisted the Angel received the offerings....


It really hits home for me when I review a passage in Revelation....


Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.


Sounds like a secret name to me....


3: GOINGS FORTH:


Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.


H4163


Original: מוצאה Transliteration: mts'h Phonetic: mo-tsaw-aw' BDB Definition:


1. origin, place of going out from a. origin b. places of going out to or from


A very recognizable Messianic prophecy.... This is one of the key prophecies used for centuries by Israelites to be able to recognize their Messiah....


Mts'h is translated goings forth but notice.... The definition is [origin].... So not only can we say the Messiah has been moving about on this earth since before His earthly incarnation.... Or from antiquity [time out of mind].... But that His origin is set in antiquity too.... Meaning as with Melchizadec.... He has no beginning and will have no end....


He existed before the world began.... Not in an earthly body.... Not called Jesus.... But He did exist....

NOTE: I wanted to get this ball rolling so here is the OT part.... Please allow time for the NT....

TrustGzus
Sep 30th 2013, 01:03 AM
following 15 characters

Diggindeeper
Sep 30th 2013, 01:38 AM
Mary, I offer that he was the 4th man in the fiery furnace too. That old king asked his advisers,"Didn't we throw 3 men into the fire?"

And the men answered him, "Yes, King, we threw 3 men in there."

Then, that old king, who probably thought he was loosing his marbles, said, "Lo, I see 4 men in that furnace, loose and walking around." Then, he added, "And the 4th man looks like the son of God."

Jesus was walking in that fiery furnace with those 3 Hebrew boys.

jayne
Sep 30th 2013, 01:53 AM
Revelation 19 says that one of the names of Jesus is the Word of God (not to be confused with the word of God).

"......[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords."

Brother Paul
Sep 30th 2013, 02:10 AM
Jesus tells us in John 5:37 "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." and elsewhere tells us "No man has seen the Father, the only begotten Son has declared HIm" (that is, unfolded Him, recounted Him, made Him manifest as in, you who have seen me have seen the Father).

So now go back...all those times YHVH was seen (on various forms) and heard (like to Abraham, Hagar, Jacob, Manoah and His wife or like as the Angel of YHVH from the burning bush, or the Man with whom Joshua had an encounter...or the YHVH sent from YHVH K'vod with His Spirit in Isaiah 48:16)...if not the Father than who? Selah!

Brother Paul

MaryFreeman
Sep 30th 2013, 02:54 AM
John 8:58


I coldn't even think of starting the NT portion of this thread without starting here.... Because even if we had no other scripture to back up the assertion that Jesus existed equally as the third member of the Trinity before His earthly incarnation.... This one wee small verse knocks all assertions to the contrary out of the water.... Because it contains a HUGE declaration....


58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.


John 10 has them wanting to stone Jesus again.... Because He said "I and My Father are One".... Why? Because Jesus claimed to be God.... But we can take this one step further.... He also said. "BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM".... He dated Himself.... He is saying that He existed before Abraham did....


I would like to point out how the NT makes this fact clearer.... Starting where you might expect me to start....


John 1


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


2 The same was in the beginning with God.


3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


As I stated in the first post.... He is singled out by the fact that His hands created everything.... So His mouth spoke the Genesis "Us".... And because those two things are true.... We can come to the logical conclusion that He was talking to the other Person present.... This description of Jesus by John demands the pre existence of Jesus.... John calls Him "the Word".... We call Him the Son.... When He came to this earth to be born of the virgin Mary.... She called His name Jesus....


Regardless.... He always was.... Always is.... And always will be God.... The Son.... He was in the beginning with God the Father and He is the person in the Trinity by whose hand all things were created.... The addition of a body and another name will never change this.... Nor did those additions remove from Him the knowledge of who He was before He was given a body....


John 17 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.


7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.


8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.


Jesus knew He existed before He was sent to earth to die for mankind.... Jesus claimed to exist before His earthly incarnation.... Jesus's prayer exhibited the fact that He existed before His incarnation....


And so do Pauls letters....


Phil. 2:


6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Being in the form of God means being the same substance as God.... The Nicene creed says "Begotten and not made, God from God".... Just as two humans beget another human.... Or two cows beget another cow.... Or four cats beget ten more cats.... Unlike mice who need only two to beget twelve....


God begat God.... As the Father is.... So is the Son.... Jesus was a Spirit.... Just as the Father is a Spirit.... At the incarnation something happened that has never been done before.... Nor will it ever be done again.... The Son came down from heaven and contained Himself in a human body.... The Son.... Being a Spirit just as The Father is a Spirit.... took up residence inside a human body....


We are spirits.... We live in a body.... We possess a soul(mind.... Will.... And emotions).... Jesus had two of the three of these attributes before He came here to interrupt the nasty now and later.... To turn the world upside down.... If Jesus had not had a body prepared for Him.... If He did not become fully Man as well as already being fully God.... Then He would not have been able to redeem mankind.... Because there had to be a pure sacrifice for our sin.... And not one of us is sinless.... So Jesus had to do It....


I would like to take a few seconds to address Hebrews 5:5.... The KJV says this (I am starting in verse 1 for context)....


Hebrews 5


1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:


2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. note


3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.


4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.


5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.


6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


The NIV says "But God said to Him".... This is an egregious error (and one of many) on the part of the NIV translators.... This passage speaks of prieathoods.... How they are obtained.... And how Jesus obtained His eternal priesthood (after the order of Melchizadec).... He obtained it through His Father.... The verse says Jesus didn't glorify Himself.... His father did....


Can you remember in the NT the passage where God says to an incarnate Jesus.... "Thou art My Son, to day have I begotten thee"?

No?


That is because it is found in the second Psalm.... And not seen again until Acts.... The bible never does say WHEN God says this to His Son.... To day could have been the point in eternity where God begat God.... We don't really know when that phrase comes into play for God the Son.... The bible doesn't qualify the word today....


I could list verse after verse confirming the pre incarnation existence of Christ.... But I don't want to hog....

Curtis
Sep 30th 2013, 02:30 PM
Mary, I rarely ever read Christian books, but there are few that I trust. One of them is a guy named Ron Rhodes He is a Hebrew / Greek scholar, and He has written a book called, "Christ before the Manger" He goes through the old and new testament showing where Christ appeared, but he (Jesus) used a few different description about himself. One of them was "the Angel of the Lord" Angel simply means "messengerr" I would highly recommend this Book to everyone seeking this information. It goes into great detail about this subject. I have it on my Kindle fire, I just might start reading it again.

Mic 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.

TrustGzus
Sep 30th 2013, 05:52 PM
Ron Rhodes (http://ronrhodes.org/meet-ron.html) is very good and I would recommend his books on nearly every subject. He is a careful thinker. I don't think Ron would call himself a Hebrew scholar. I'm not even sure that he'd call himself a Greek scholar. However, he has had seven semester of Greek last I knew and so he is much sharper on Greek than most people.

MaryFreeman
Oct 1st 2013, 03:40 AM
Does anyone know how to tag someone in a thread?