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Bro Berryl
Oct 2nd 2013, 01:24 AM
When our Lord died on the cross he not only provided a way for salvation (through faith in his blood) but he also in the process defeated Satan as was prophesied by Moses in Genesis 3:15.

Satan bruised the heel of our Savior, but he crushed the head of Satan, and this he did openly and in front of all when he hung on the cross. That is what meant by the scripture that says he made a show of principalities and powers openly.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

The apostle Paul quotes David's Psalm in Ephesians 4,


Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.


Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Regarding the possibility of Jesus clearing Abraham bosom, I don't think it's possible to make these verses fit that application.

MaryFreeman
Oct 2nd 2013, 01:46 AM
When our Lord died on the cross he not only provided a way for salvation (through faith in his blood) but he also in the process defeated Satan as was prophesied by Moses in Genesis 3:15.

Satan bruised the heel of our Savior, but he crushed the head of Satan, and this he did openly and in front of all when he hung on the cross. That is what meant by the scripture that says he made a show of principalities and powers openly.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

The apostle Paul quotes David's Psalm in Ephesians 4,


Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.


Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Regarding the possibility of Jesus clearing Abraham bosom, I don't think it's possible to make these verses fit that application.
Before I start I need clarification.... Do you believe Jesus emptied Abrahams Bosom?

Bro Berryl
Oct 2nd 2013, 03:37 AM
Before I start I need clarification.... Do you believe Jesus emptied Abrahams Bosom?

I believe that when a person dies their spirit goes to be with the Lord

2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with Jesus.

I also believe that the Lord is in the presence of God

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

From these verses I must conclude that Abraham's bosom is another way of saying some one is in the presence of God. So to answer your question, no Jesus did not remove anyone from the presence of the Lord (Abraham's bosom)

MaryFreeman
Oct 2nd 2013, 04:36 AM
I believe that when a person dies their spirit goes to be with the Lord

2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with Jesus.

I also believe that the Lord is in the presence of God

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

From these verses I must conclude that Abraham's bosom is another way of saying some one is in the presence of God. So to answer your question, no Jesus did not remove anyone from the presence of the Lord (Abraham's bosom)
Ok.... So what do you think of OT passages that have the righteous dead (ref. Saul and Samuel) in sheol?

ChangedByHim
Oct 2nd 2013, 05:04 AM
What's this thread about, Abraham's Bosom or disarming satan?

Curtis
Oct 2nd 2013, 06:40 AM
I believe that when a person dies their spirit goes to be with the Lord

2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with Jesus.

I also believe that the Lord is in the presence of God

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

From these verses I must conclude that Abraham's bosom is another way of saying some one is in the presence of God. So to answer your question, no Jesus did not remove anyone from the presence of the Lord (Abraham's bosom)

I don't think the people who were in Abraham's bosom has anything to do with them being in God's presence as Jesus said, "no man can come unto the Father except by me" Abraham did not have that ability to bring anybody into God's presence.

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

I find it interesting that the old testament saints when they died wound up in Abraham's bosom, but when Jesus came to earth he was filled with his Church in his bosom...
Salvation was impossible without his Church being in Christ at the time of his birth, death, and resurrection. We became righteous in the same way we became sinners, being in Adam we died, and now being in Christ we live.

Isa 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

It is also interesting that after Jesus was put to death in the flesh, and then made alive in the Spirit, he went and preached to the spirits in prison.....

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

I don;t know if these people were in Abraham's bosom or not, maybe.

Right now at this moment I believe that Abraham's bosom was cleared after he (Jesus) had led captivity captive after his resurrection.
Just my opinion.

Bro Berryl
Oct 2nd 2013, 12:15 PM
Ok.... So what do you think of OT passages that have the righteous dead (ref. Saul and Samuel) in sheol?

Mmmm...........you know, now that I think it through considering your point here it is likely that Abraham' bosom and heaven are two different places.

If we read Hebrews it was the blood of Christ that freed a person from the bondage of sin and the grave. Before the cross the Old Testament faithful would have gone to that place in hell where Lazarus was, but after Jesus died on the cross and ascended into heaven things changed. It was no longer Abraham's bosom it was called paradise.

Just a thought here to consider. Is it possible that when the graves were opened at the death of Christ that it was the Old Testament saints going into paradise with Jesus? If that is true then clearing Abraham's bosom is true and I stand corrected.

MaryFreeman
Oct 2nd 2013, 01:28 PM
Mmmm...........you know, now that I think it through considering your point here it is likely that Abraham' bosom and heaven are two different places.

If we read Hebrews it was the blood of Christ that freed a person from the bondage of sin and the grave. Before the cross the Old Testament faithful would have gone to that place in hell where Lazarus was, but after Jesus died on the cross and ascended into heaven things changed. It was no longer Abraham's bosom it was called paradise.

Just a thought here to consider. Is it possible that when the graves were opened at the death of Christ that it was the Old Testament saints going into paradise with Jesus? If that is true then clearing Abraham's bosom is true and I stand corrected.
I do believe all those old testament saints were walking about because they were released from sheol.... And sheol was Abrahams Bosom.... Also I think what backs this up is this passage:

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens,
that he might fill all things.)

And consider Revelation.... Where Jesus says he has the key to hell and to the grave(sheol)....

An ancient practice in warfare is for the victor to parade his captives through the streets.... They were usually stripped bare and their possessions were gifted to others.... So it is with "He made a show of them openly".... The captivity Jesus led captive was not the folks in the place known as Abrahams Bosom.... It was satan and his minions....

Bro Berryl
Oct 2nd 2013, 02:46 PM
I do believe all those old testament saints were walking about because they were released from sheol.... And sheol was Abrahams Bosom.... Also I think what backs this up is this passage:

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens,
that he might fill all things.)

And consider Revelation.... Where Jesus says he has the key to hell and to the grave(sheol)....

An ancient practice in warfare is for the victor to parade his captives through the streets.... They were usually stripped bare and their possessions were gifted to others.... So it is with "He made a show of them openly".... The captivity Jesus led captive was not the folks in the place known as Abrahams Bosom.... It was satan and his minions....

Thanks for the clearer understanding. This was a blessing


I do believe all those old testament saints were walking about because they were released from sheol.... And sheol was Abrahams Bosom.... Also I think what backs this up is this passage:

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens,
that he might fill all things.)

And consider Revelation.... Where Jesus says he has the key to hell and to the grave(sheol)....

An ancient practice in warfare is for the victor to parade his captives through the streets.... They were usually stripped bare and their possessions were gifted to others.... So it is with "He made a show of them openly".... The captivity Jesus led captive was not the folks in the place known as Abrahams Bosom.... It was satan and his minions....

Thanks for the clearer understanding. This was a blessing

MaryFreeman
Oct 2nd 2013, 03:21 PM
Thanks for the clearer understanding. This was a blessing.
Any time dear one....

percho
Oct 2nd 2013, 04:26 PM
I do believe all those old testament saints were walking about because they were released from sheol.... And sheol was Abrahams Bosom.... Also I think what backs this up is this passage:

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens,
that he might fill all things.)

And consider Revelation.... Where Jesus says he has the key to hell and to the grave(sheol)....

An ancient practice in warfare is for the victor to parade his captives through the streets.... They were usually stripped bare and their possessions were gifted to others.... So it is with "He made a show of them openly".... The captivity Jesus led captive was not the folks in the place known as Abrahams Bosom.... It was satan and his minions....

So let me ask you.

then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written. From 1 Cor 15:54 Death is swallowed up in victory.

O death, where is thy sting? O grave,(Hades) where is thy victory?

Does that take place at a very, very specific moment? When is that moment?

The captivity Jesus led captive was, "dying thou dost die," YLT of Genesis 2:17. That says dying is forever. What does the resurrection of the dead Jesus do? Darby translation of 2 Tim. 1:10 but has been made manifest now by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who has annulled death, (That is death that is forever, for men still die) and brought to light life (inherent, quickened) and incorruptibility by the glad tidings; He is the only one to have inherited it.

It was death that was forever that was led captive, not those who had succumbed to that death. God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Hebrews 11:40
Those who died in faith have not preceded us and neither will those alive unto the coming of the Lord precede those dead if faith nor those who died in Christ.

Those dead will rise from the dead and those alive will be changed and together with the dead will proceed, into the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God will be inherited by those dead and those alive together at once.

Just my humble understanding.

MaryFreeman
Oct 2nd 2013, 04:41 PM
So let me ask you.

then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written. From 1 Cor 15:54 Death is swallowed up in victory.

O death, where is thy sting? O grave,(Hades) where is thy victory?

Does that take place at a very, very specific moment? When is that moment?

What does the word "then" follow? See it here:

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? note

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.






The captivity Jesus led captive was, "dying thou dost die," YLT of Genesis 2:17. That says dying is forever. What does the resurrection of the dead Jesus do? Darby translation of 2 Tim. 1:10 but has been made manifest now by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who has annulled death, (That is death that is forever, for men still die) and brought to light life (inherent, quickened) and incorruptibility by the glad tidings; He is the only one to have inherited it.

It was death that was forever that was led captive, not those who had succumbed to that death. God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Hebrews 11:40
Those who died in faith have not preceded us and neither will those alive unto the coming of the Lord precede those dead if faith nor those who died in Christ.

Those dead will rise from the dead and those alive will be changed and together with the dead will proceed, into the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God will be inherited by those dead and those alive together at once.

Just my humble understanding.
Exactly.... Those who died in faith.... Be they OT or NT.... Are not who Jesus led captive.... When I said it was satan and his minions.... I lumped death in there....

percho
Oct 2nd 2013, 05:50 PM
What does the word "then" follow? See it here:

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? note

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.




Exactly.... Those who died in faith.... Be they OT or NT.... Are not who Jesus led captive.... When I said it was satan and his minions.... I lumped death in there....

I agree. I did not understand you at first like that but can see it now.

Walls
Oct 2nd 2013, 06:08 PM
Those who propose that Abraham's Bosom was emptied at Christ's resurrection have yet to offer a single word of the whole bible to this effect. Here are problems that they refuse to address.

The spirit returns to God at death, but not the soul. At our Lord's death His spirit went to the Father but He descended to the lowest parts of the earth.
The scriptures stating that we are with The Lord after death must be understood that a man is divorced from his body at death so that being with The Lord in death cannot mean heaven where The Lord is BODILY. The dead man's body corrupts on the earth's surface.
A man without a body is naked, so he could not have audience with God
If Hades is emptied where is everybody?
If Hades is empty why is David still there. His grave is still there 50 days after our Lord's resurrection
If Hades is empty, how do the dead RISE?
If Hades is empty why is death only defeated LAST?

There are more problems, but I propose that anybody advocating that Hades is emptied at Christ's resurrection is building a doctrine out of not one single indication in scripture AND ignoring insurmountable problems with multiple other scriptures. I cannot imagine why a serious student of the bible would start such a thought.

MaryFreeman
Oct 2nd 2013, 06:47 PM
Those who propose that Abraham's Bosom was emptied at Christ's resurrection have yet to offer a single word of the whole bible to this effect. Here are problems that they refuse to address.
Rather inflammatory....
Do you need a book of scripture? I only need pertinent scripture.... And I posted it....



The spirit returns to God at death, but not the soul. At our Lord's death His spirit went to the Father but He descended to the lowest parts of the earth.
The scriptures stating that we are with The Lord after death must be understood that a man is divorced from his body at death so that being with The Lord in death cannot mean heaven where The Lord is BODILY. The dead man's body corrupts on the earth's surface.
A man without a body is naked, so he could not have audience with God
If Hades is emptied where is everybody?
If Hades is empty why is David still there. His grave is still there 50 days after our Lord's resurrection
If Hades is empty, how do the dead RISE?
If Hades is empty why is death only defeated LAST?



I have never addressed you except in passing because you have said a number of disturbing things.... But I try not to play the who's right versus who's wrong game.... I refuse to believe either of us knows more than the other and I simply won't take too much time out of my day to try to check everything you say.... If I get a check in my spirit regarding your post I simply leave it be....


There are more problems, but I propose that anybody advocating that Hades is emptied at Christ's resurrection is building a doctrine out of not one single indication in scripture AND ignoring insurmountable problems with multiple other scriptures. I cannot imagine why a serious student of the bible would start such a thought.
People have gained understanding here Walls.... To then come along and use inflammatory language to assert your superiority in biblical studies.... It is not well done of you brother.... To take away peace because.... Well because why?

Sufficient evidence is in the scripture posted for the assertion that sheol was emptied of the spirits residing there.... There is nothing to indicate the OT saints who walked about after the resurrection were in their bodies when they did so.... And I am pretty sure you aren't the only serious student of the bible on this board.... I would appreciate any objective questions you have and any scripture you feel conflicts but please keep it objective and not subjective....

Jade99
Oct 2nd 2013, 07:52 PM
When our Lord died on the cross he not only provided a way for salvation (through faith in his blood) but he also in the process defeated Satan as was prophesied by Moses in Genesis 3:15.

Satan bruised the heel of our Savior, but he crushed the head of Satan, and this he did openly and in front of all when he hung on the cross. That is what meant by the scripture that says he made a show of principalities and powers openly.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

The apostle Paul quotes David's Psalm in Ephesians 4,


Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.


Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Regarding the possibility of Jesus clearing Abraham bosom, I don't think it's possible to make these verses fit that application.

I don't understand....can ya help a girl out, please?

Bro Berryl
Oct 2nd 2013, 08:49 PM
I don't understand....can ya help a girl out, please?

By reading posts #6-#9 you can gain a better understanding of what I should have said. Thanks to some nice people in this forum I understand my position much better.


I don't understand....can ya help a girl out, please?

By reading posts #6-#9 you can gain a better understanding of what I should have said. Thanks to some nice people in this forum I understand my position much better.

percho
Oct 2nd 2013, 09:33 PM
Rather inflammatory....
Do you need a book of scripture? I only need pertinent scripture.... And I posted it....


I have never addressed you except in passing because you have said a number of disturbing things.... But I try not to play the who's right versus who's wrong game.... I refuse to believe either of us knows more than the other and I simply won't take too much time out of my day to try to check everything you say.... If I get a check in my spirit regarding your post I simply leave it be....

People have gained understanding here Walls.... To then come along and use inflammatory language to assert your superiority in biblical studies.... It is not well done of you brother.... To take away peace because.... Well because why?

Sufficient evidence is in the scripture posted for the assertion that sheol was emptied of the spirits residing there.... There is nothing to indicate the OT saints who walked about after the resurrection were in their bodies when they did so.... And I am pretty sure you aren't the only serious student of the bible on this board.... I would appreciate any objective questions you have and any scripture you feel conflicts but please keep it objective and not subjective....

I do not think you can find in scripture where it is stated spirits go or ever went to Sheol or Hades.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, Genesis 2:7 (The man at this moment was a soul, however there wasn't any life in this soul. ) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; ( If you compare this with Genesis 7:22 ASV the breath of life is the breath of the spirit of life. ) and man became a living soul. -- What had been just soul with spirit life from God became living soul. Lev 17:11 tells us; The life of the flesh is in the blood for the atonement of the soul. Life, there is the word for soul nephesh therefore what is meant is, what makes soul, (living, with the breath of spirit of life from God,) of the flesh is in the blood.

Life is in the blood by spirit of breath of life from God who gave it. That is the spirit life Jesus commended into the hands of his Father. Jesus gave his life, and put his life into the hands of his Father.
The once living soul Jesus was dead. The soul of him in Hades. The body of him subject to corruption. The spirit that had made him a living soul with God who gave it, through Mary his mother.

Spirits were not released from anywhere when Jesus died and was raised.

MaryFreeman
Oct 2nd 2013, 10:30 PM
I do not think you can find in scripture where it is stated spirits go or ever went to Sheol or Hades.

But I can....

8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Where did Saul call Samuel up from?
Job tells us....

Job 17:
16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

The definition of pit:

H7585

Original: לאשׁ לואשׁ Transliteration: she'ôl she'ôl Phonetic: sheh-ole' BDB Definition:

1. sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit a. the underworld b. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead 1. place of no return 2. without praise of God 3. wicked sent there for punishment 4. righteous not abandoned to it 5. of the place of exile (figuratively) 6. of extreme degradation in sin

Notice where it says "righteous not abandoned to it".... But clearly Job said that is where their spirits go when their bodies rested in the dust.... So we can safely come to the conclusion that that is where Samuel was.... Couple that with verses I already posted.... And we see the righteous were not abandoned there.... They were set free....




And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, Genesis 2:7 (The man at this moment was a soul, however there wasn't any life in this soul. ) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; ( If you compare this with Genesis 7:22 ASV the breath of life is the breath of the spirit of life. ) and man became a living soul. -- What had been just soul with spirit life from God became living soul. Lev 17:11 tells us; The life of the flesh is in the blood for the atonement of the soul. Life, there is the word for soul nephesh therefore what is meant is, what makes soul, (living, with the breath of spirit of life from God,) of the flesh is in the blood.

Life is in the blood by spirit of breath of life from God who gave it. That is the spirit life Jesus commended into the hands of his Father. Jesus gave his life, and put his life into the hands of his Father.
The once living soul Jesus was dead. The soul of him in Hades. The body of him subject to corruption. The spirit that had made him a living soul with God who gave it, through Mary his mother.

Spirits were not released from anywhere when Jesus died and was raised.

Most of this I am scratching my head wondering where it fits the discussion....

And so I can only address one point....

Jesus body was NOT subject to corruption....
Psalms 16
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

That same word used for hell is defined above.... It is she'ôl.... And David prophesied that his own soul (nephesh.... Which could mean anything from the spirit to the mind) would not be left in hell.... Or She'ôl....

Curtis
Oct 2nd 2013, 10:40 PM
But I can....

8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Where did Saul call Samuel up from?
Job tells us....

Job 17:
16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

The definition of pit:

H7585

Original: לאשׁ לואשׁ Transliteration: she'ôl she'ôl Phonetic: sheh-ole' BDB Definition:

1. sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit a. the underworld b. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead 1. place of no return 2. without praise of God 3. wicked sent there for punishment 4. righteous not abandoned to it 5. of the place of exile (figuratively) 6. of extreme degradation in sin

Notice where it says "righteous not abandoned to it".... But clearly Job said that is where their spirits go when their bodies rested in the dust.... So we can safely come to the conclusion that that is where Samuel was.... Couple that with verses I already posted.... And we see the righteous were not abandoned there.... They were set free....




Most of this I am scratching my head wondering where it fits the discussion....

And so I can only address one point....

Jesus body was NOT subject to corruption....
Psalms 16
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

That same word used for hell is defined above.... It is she'ôl.... And David prophesied that his own soul (nephesh.... Which could mean anything from the spirit to the mind) would not be left in hell.... Or She'ôl....

Well, I'd say that settles that. :)

Walls
Oct 2nd 2013, 11:18 PM
Rather inflammatory....
Do you need a book of scripture? I only need pertinent scripture.... And I posted it....


I have never addressed you except in passing because you have said a number of disturbing things.... But I try not to play the who's right versus who's wrong game.... I refuse to believe either of us knows more than the other and I simply won't take too much time out of my day to try to check everything you say.... If I get a check in my spirit regarding your post I simply leave it be....

People have gained understanding here Walls.... To then come along and use inflammatory language to assert your superiority in biblical studies.... It is not well done of you brother.... To take away peace because.... Well because why?

Sufficient evidence is in the scripture posted for the assertion that sheol was emptied of the spirits residing there.... There is nothing to indicate the OT saints who walked about after the resurrection were in their bodies when they did so.... And I am pretty sure you aren't the only serious student of the bible on this board.... I would appreciate any objective questions you have and any scripture you feel conflicts but please keep it objective and not subjective....

I bow to your judgement of me. As you have not brought any "pertinent" scriptures, and this is "Bible Chat", what more can I say?

MaryFreeman
Oct 3rd 2013, 01:51 AM
I bow to your judgement of me. As you have not brought any "pertinent" scriptures, and this is "Bible Chat", what more can I say?
See? That's what I mean....


I bow to your judgement of me. As you have not brought any "pertinent" scriptures, and this is "Bible Chat", what more can I say?
See? That's what I mean....

percho
Oct 3rd 2013, 02:03 AM
But I can....

8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Where did Saul call Samuel up from?
Job tells us....

Job 17:
16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

The definition of pit:

H7585

Original: לאשׁ לואשׁ Transliteration: she'ôl she'ôl Phonetic: sheh-ole' BDB Definition:

1. sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit a. the underworld b. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead 1. place of no return 2. without praise of God 3. wicked sent there for punishment 4. righteous not abandoned to it 5. of the place of exile (figuratively) 6. of extreme degradation in sin

Notice where it says "righteous not abandoned to it".... But clearly Job said that is where their spirits go when their bodies rested in the dust.... So we can safely come to the conclusion that that is where Samuel was.... Couple that with verses I already posted.... And we see the righteous were not abandoned there.... They were set free....




Most of this I am scratching my head wondering where it fits the discussion....

And so I can only address one point....

Jesus body was NOT subject to corruption....
Psalms 16
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

That same word used for hell is defined above.... It is she'ôl.... And David prophesied that his own soul (nephesh.... Which could mean anything from the spirit to the mind) would not be left in hell.... Or She'ôl....

It was the woman who had a familiar spirit; how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land:

That says nothing of the spirit of Samuel. Saul wants to talk with Samuel who is dead in Sheol and there is no longer any spirit with him. The witch then in her familiar spirit brought him up.
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth. Did this witch raise up Samuel?


Following from the book of Job where the word spirit appears and not once is it related to Sheol. Men are not called spirits. As Job says there is a spirit in man.


Job 4:15
Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up:

Job 6:4
For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

Job 7:11
Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

Job 10:12
Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit.

Job 15:13
That thou turnest thy spirit against God, and lettest such words go out of thy mouth?

Job 20:3
I have heard the check of my reproach, and the spirit of my understanding causeth me to answer.

Job 21:4
As for me, is my complaint to man? and if it were so, why should not my spirit be troubled?

Job 26:4
To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?

Job 26:13
By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Job 27:3
All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Job 32:8
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Job 32:18
For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me.

Job 33:4
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Job 34:14
If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;






Job 4:15
Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up:

Job 6:4
For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

Job 7:11
Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

Job 10:12
Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit.

Job 15:13
That thou turnest thy spirit against God, and lettest such words go out of thy mouth?
Job 20:3
I have heard the check of my reproach, and the spirit of my understanding causeth me to answer.

Job 21:4
As for me, is my complaint to man? and if it were so, why should not my spirit be troubled?

Job 26:4
To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?

Job 26:13
By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Job 27:3
All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Job 32:8
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Job 32:18
For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me.

Job 33:4
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Job 34:14
If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;


But I can....

8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Where did Saul call Samuel up from?
Job tells us....

Job 17:
16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

The definition of pit:

H7585

Original: לאשׁ לואשׁ Transliteration: she'ôl she'ôl Phonetic: sheh-ole' BDB Definition:

1. sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit a. the underworld b. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead 1. place of no return 2. without praise of God 3. wicked sent there for punishment 4. righteous not abandoned to it 5. of the place of exile (figuratively) 6. of extreme degradation in sin

Notice where it says "righteous not abandoned to it".... But clearly Job said that is where their spirits go when their bodies rested in the dust.... So we can safely come to the conclusion that that is where Samuel was.... Couple that with verses I already posted.... And we see the righteous were not abandoned there.... They were set free....




Most of this I am scratching my head wondering where it fits the discussion....

And so I can only address one point....

Jesus body was NOT subject to corruption....
Psalms 16
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

That same word used for hell is defined above.... It is she'ôl.... And David prophesied that his own soul (nephesh.... Which could mean anything from the spirit to the mind) would not be left in hell.... Or She'ôl....

It was the woman who had a familiar spirit; how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land:

That says nothing of the spirit of Samuel. Saul wants to talk with Samuel who is dead in Sheol and there is no longer any spirit with him. The witch then in her familiar spirit brought him up.
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth. Did this witch raise up Samuel?


Following from the book of Job where the word spirit appears and not once is it related to Sheol. Men are not called spirits. As Job says there is a spirit in man.


Job 4:15
Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up:

Job 6:4
For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

Job 7:11
Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

Job 10:12
Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit.

Job 15:13
That thou turnest thy spirit against God, and lettest such words go out of thy mouth?

Job 20:3
I have heard the check of my reproach, and the spirit of my understanding causeth me to answer.

Job 21:4
As for me, is my complaint to man? and if it were so, why should not my spirit be troubled?

Job 26:4
To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?

Job 26:13
By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Job 27:3
All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Job 32:8
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Job 32:18
For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me.

Job 33:4
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Job 34:14
If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;






Job 4:15
Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up:

Job 6:4
For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

Job 7:11
Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

Job 10:12
Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit.

Job 15:13
That thou turnest thy spirit against God, and lettest such words go out of thy mouth?
Job 20:3
I have heard the check of my reproach, and the spirit of my understanding causeth me to answer.

Job 21:4
As for me, is my complaint to man? and if it were so, why should not my spirit be troubled?

Job 26:4
To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?

Job 26:13
By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Job 27:3
All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Job 32:8
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Job 32:18
For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me.

Job 33:4
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Job 34:14
If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

Walls
Oct 3rd 2013, 03:30 PM
When our Lord died on the cross he not only provided a way for salvation (through faith in his blood) but he also in the process defeated Satan as was prophesied by Moses in Genesis 3:15.

Satan bruised the heel of our Savior, but he crushed the head of Satan, and this he did openly and in front of all when he hung on the cross. That is what meant by the scripture that says he made a show of principalities and powers openly.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

The apostle Paul quotes David's Psalm in Ephesians 4,


Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.


Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Regarding the possibility of Jesus clearing Abraham bosom, I don't think it's possible to make these verses fit that application.

Yes. I agree. The verses (even their extended contexts) do not address Abraham's Bosom. Without writing a book, the context of Colossians 2 is the Kingdom of the Heavens. The lead-in is Baptism, which we know from John 3:5 to be the qualifier to ENTER the Kingdom. The Covenant with Abraham for gaining the earth (Rom.4:13) is circumcision. This covenant has never been annulled (Gal.3:15-18) so circumcision is still valid. But the circumcision given to Abraham was (1) made by hands, and (2) only for the male, as he alone was inheritor in Israel. The Church has now been made co-inheritor with Christ as seed of Abraham (Gal.3:29), and so a new and fitting circumcision replaces the previous one.

Circumcision was a display of cutting off of the flesh at the seat of human pleasure for the gaining of the Land - a symbol that flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of Israel, and that this Kingdom is only gained by the cutting off of the flesh. The flesh is the top hindrance to gaining the Kingdom. In Matthew 20:23, our Lord called His death a "Baptism." Our Lord's death is the total cutting off of the flesh, so in Romans 6:1-11 we see Christ's death is applied to us for a number of things. One of them is to cut off the old man of fleshly sin. So just as Israel joined the covenant by the cutting off of a piece of the flesh for the Land, the Christian, when he/she is baptised, symbolically enters Christ's death which cuts off the whole flesh. Thus, Baptism becomes the new circumcision for all inheritors who want to enter the Kingdom, which is nothing less than the gaining of the earth when Christ returns.

And the gaining of the earth is what we were made for (Gen.1:26-28), and saved for by Christ's death and resurrection (Gal.3:26-29). This is what Colossians deals with. The trouble was, for Gentiles to gain the Kingdom, two things stood in the way.
They were not circumcised
They were divided by the Law of Moses. It was a partition dividing Jew and Gentile as it forbad covenants with them, either for the land or for marriage.

(1)
So Colossians 2 shows that the Gentiles are now partakers of the promise to Abraham for the earth, AND that circumcision of the foreskin, that made with hands, is replaced by the circumcision of Christ's "Baptism", that is, His death by full immersion in water. It is saying that circumcision of males by the hand is replaced by circumcision of the whole flesh by Christ's death for both man and woman.

(2)
The Law as a means of gaining and keeping the Land is abolished as finally as Christ's death was. It is actually "killed" with Him, thus breaking down the "Partition" that prevented the Gentile partaking of what was Abraham's and Israel's - from inheriting the earth.

So, when this is all achieved, the principalities and powers that were rulers of the earth by Adam's failure and default, are now defeated. Their days are numbered. When the Church is complete after 2 days or 2 thousand years, the Church will replace the principalities and powers that now rule. Colossians Chapter 2 has nothing to do with emptying Abraham's Bosom.

Ephesians Chapter 4 is the same. Ephesians Chapter 4 concerns Christ's ascension to the throne and the giving of gifts to men to build the Church for spoiling the principalities that now rule the earth. "Captivity" is the captive rule of Satan's powers and principalities which presently rule the earth. As ruler of the earth he is accused of turning the earth into desolation and NOT letting his captives free (Isa.14:17). Satan and his principalities were the captivity of men, and our Lord's ascension to the Father's throne is the turning of this captivity. It is the "taking captive the captivity." The Amplified Bible alludes to this. It renders this verse as, "He led a train of vanquished foes... ."

MaryFreeman
Oct 3rd 2013, 09:27 PM
It was the woman who had a familiar spirit; how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land:

That says nothing of the spirit of Samuel. Saul wants to talk with Samuel who is dead in Sheol and there is no longer any spirit with him. The witch then in her familiar spirit .... I had to stop here.... Because I wonder if you read what you wrote?

Did you even read the passage? A familiar spirit is a demon.... And it is very obvious that Saul was talking to Samuel but only the demon possessed woman could see Samuel.... If she wasn't looking at Samuel the spirit then who was she looking at?

And Samuel spoke to Saul.... If it wasn't Samuel the spirit who was it? Samuels body was DEAD....

Bnjmn
Oct 3rd 2013, 09:44 PM
I had to stop here.... Because I wonder if you read what you wrote?

Did you even read the passage? A familiar spirit is a demon.... And it is very obvious that Saul was talking to Samuel but only the demon possessed woman could see Samuel.... If she wasn't looking at Samuel the spirit then who was she looking at?

And Samuel spoke to Saul.... If it wasn't Samuel the spirit who was it? Samuels body was DEAD....

I always took that as the woman had a spirit/demon who she frequently spoke with who was able to connect her to other roaming spirits. Saul knew this and went to her in order to be able to speak to Samuel('s spirit)


I had to stop here.... Because I wonder if you read what you wrote?

Did you even read the passage? A familiar spirit is a demon.... And it is very obvious that Saul was talking to Samuel but only the demon possessed woman could see Samuel.... If she wasn't looking at Samuel the spirit then who was she looking at?

And Samuel spoke to Saul.... If it wasn't Samuel the spirit who was it? Samuels body was DEAD....

I always took that as the woman had a spirit/demon who she frequently spoke with who was able to connect her to other roaming spirits. Saul knew this and went to her in order to be able to speak to Samuel('s spirit)

MaryFreeman
Oct 3rd 2013, 11:19 PM
I always took that as the woman had a spirit/demon who she frequently spoke with who was able to connect her to other roaming spirits. Saul knew this and went to her in order to be able to speak to Samuel('s spirit)



I always took that as the woman had a spirit/demon who she frequently spoke with who was able to connect her to other roaming spirits. Saul knew this and went to her in order to be able to speak to Samuel('s spirit)Yes! Thank you! That's exactly what happened....


I always took that as the woman had a spirit/demon who she frequently spoke with who was able to connect her to other roaming spirits. Saul knew this and went to her in order to be able to speak to Samuel('s spirit)



I always took that as the woman had a spirit/demon who she frequently spoke with who was able to connect her to other roaming spirits. Saul knew this and went to her in order to be able to speak to Samuel('s spirit)Yes! Thank you! That's exactly what happened....

MaryFreeman
Oct 3rd 2013, 11:23 PM
And on that note.... I feel I have given this thread all I have to give it.... PEACE OUT JESUS FREAKS!

Curtis
Oct 4th 2013, 01:38 AM
Just my opinion.

Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

When Jesus died and rose up from the dead, did he capture Satan and then take him with him up on high? I don't think so. Satan is still on the loose in this world...

1Jn 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.(NET)

So it could not have been Satan who he led captive. The old testament saints when they died went to Abraham's bosom. These people who were in Abraham's bosom were captive. They were not free to roam around were they wanted. I believe these were the people Jesus went to first to release from their captivity. It was these people who he led up on high to where his Father dwelt. Jesus led captivity captive. Jesus went to the captives and he captivated them by his Glory, and love. then he led them into his Father presence....

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

At the same time Jesus gave a gift to His Church which was the Holy Spirit which he promised them.

Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The Holy Spirit now being given, he is the one that distributes these gifts for ministry....

1Co 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
1Co 12:8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
1Co 12:10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

About spirits, Is there anyone you can think of that had fellowship with deceased people in the new testament? Jesus had fellowship with Moses, and Elijah on the mt of transfiguration. They were talking about what Jesus was about to do in Jerusalem. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Even we ourselves are told that if we would walk in the light as he is in the light we can have fellowship with one another. This is no strange thing, it should be a normal activity to the Church. Even Paul said that he was not with them in flesh, but in the spirit watching and beholding their steadfastness...

Col 2:4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.
Col 2:5 For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.

It was on the cross that Jesus destroyed the works of the Devil. This was there he humiliated them openly. The Devil fell right into the trap God had planned from the beginning.

Jade99
Oct 4th 2013, 06:04 PM
By reading posts #6-#9 you can gain a better understanding of what I should have said. Thanks to some nice people in this forum I understand my position much better.



By reading posts #6-#9 you can gain a better understanding of what I should have said. Thanks to some nice people in this forum I understand my position much better.

Thank you, I got it now. Very interesting :)

Curtis
Oct 6th 2013, 01:09 AM
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

I will take a stab at what this means to me. Satan operates using spiritual laws against God's saints. As it is written...

"1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Where does sin get it's strength, ability, and right to accuse us before God? It comes from the Word of God. Satan is called the accuser of the brethren.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

He accusers us before God using God's own Word. The case he has against us is based on the law of the land, which is God's commandments. Since man is a sinner, and the Word says that, " the soul that sinneth shall die" (Eze 18:20) There is no getting out of this death no matter what. The Devil knew this. God had a problem, because once his man dies, that's it, there is no coming back to life. God's Word can never be compromised, and the penalty for sin is death and that is final. What the Devil did not know was God's had already planted his Church in Christ before the world began. They were safely hidden from danger. Jesus carried us in his bosom. The law and it commands were only operable to a man that is alive. Once that man dies he is no longer under the law because the penalty for sin is death, and once death is carried out that man is no longer under the law. Satan can no longer accuse this man any longer because he is dead. We are dead to the law through the body of Christ, so we can br married unto another.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

When Jesus died on the cross so did his Church inside of him, when Jesus rose from the dead, so did his Church inside of him. We are free from the law because we died. Satan which used spiritual laws of God to accuse us has no law to hold up before God. The penalty for sin has been paid, we who were guilty of being sinners have died. Now we are living as those who are alive from the dead, and sin shall not have dominion over us because we are not under the law but under grace. If it was not for God placing his Church in Christ before the world began, this would not have been possible. The law, and all the things that were written against us have been nailed to his cross. Satan has been spoiled (disarmed) he does not have a leg to stand on anymore in God's court.