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ChangedByHim
Oct 6th 2013, 01:22 AM
We have all been gifted by God to serve within the Body. No one is more important than any other; the differences are in function only.

(Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4)

What at is your ministry? Are you currently functioning in your ministry?

Curtis
Oct 6th 2013, 01:50 AM
We have all been gifted by God to serve within the Body. No one is more important than any other; the differences are in function only.

(Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4)

What at is your ministry? Are you currently functioning in your ministry?

37 years ago the Lord came to me in a vision. I made the fatal mistake of asking him ,"what do you want me to do?" He said, "I want you to teach my Word" I was not happy about that. I am more of a usher type of guy. I refused to do it, because I did not know anything about the Bible, and I did not want to buy a bunch of Christian books and start teaching what some man said the Bible said. I made a deal with God. I said, "I will do it, but only if you teach me personally, and what you teach me that is exactly what I will say" The Lord agreed to that, but I was still unhappy. My wife and I use to play music at nursing homes, and then started playing music at different Churches around the area. We bought a motor home and then my Mother, Father in law would travel around finding small Churches to minister in music and the Word. It was fun. We ministered in one town that I think was near Arizona, a very small town. We preached the Word, played music, and when we were done the people wanted us to come back that evening. The only problem was all the people there did not have any gas money to came back, so we gave them gas money. When we were done they took up an offering and we got $3.50. We were so blessed, that was coolest thing ever. I think we bought a couple hamburgers with the offering. We never charged for anything ever. Everything we did was for free, because it did not cost us anything. Later we started a couple Church's in central Calif. We have always ministered no matter where we were. Right now my wife and I are helping take care of my Father, Mother in law as they are in there 80's. There is no such thing as retiring from the ministry. When you are dead that's when you can slow down.

PS: ministering is not in a Church building, but it is when you are out in the world every day.

ChangedByHim
Oct 6th 2013, 02:33 AM
God bless you Curtis.

I like how you weaved the big stuff and small stuff together. Like, "we started a couple churches" and "we bought a couple hamburgers." :D

Berean11
Oct 6th 2013, 02:50 AM
My ministry is wherever I am standing.

Peace, Berean11

ChangedByHim
Oct 6th 2013, 03:02 AM
In my local church I function as prophet and teacher, and to the homeless, I serve as pastor.

To be technical.

Dani
Oct 6th 2013, 03:45 AM
[size=2]If you have read any of my posts, you probably know I am 65, and disabled. I don't get out in the community. I live in an apartment complex in a very small, beautiful mountain touristy town.
Humbly said, God has given me so manty talents, I am sometimes boggled by them! That sounds so prideful, but please know it is not meant to be that way.

I love to sing. (Such a story of a Cindrella stepmother is behind that talent! )

I am an outsider artist.

I love to write- have a line of greeting cards, all original verse, all hand done.

When I had my store, up until about 3 years ago, it an outlet for many off my talents. A public place where I talked about God, and most of my talents were God oriented.

Several earth-shaking events have happened to me in the past 5 years. In the 3 years since closing the store, I have drifted away from EVERYTHING...God, trying to work 'talents' into my every day life. I just sat back and let the world go by.

A few months ago, I actually felt the Holy Spitit for the first time in a while. He was tired of me just existing.

I don't mean I didn't help people or be kind- but I only DID something if it presented itself to at my door. I didn't go out of the way to seek 'what could I do?'.
Possibly this happened because of a couple of losses in my life, in addition to that of my store.

Many wonderful changes have occured in my life in the past few months, except: what could I actively DO for anyone?

While praying 3 days ago, I was given the answer!

I sometimes make cards for new people moving into the apartments, and for other reasons too.

Who does not like to open the mail box and get a card? In this age of E-cards, many people just don't send cards, and if they do, it is normally for a specific day.

God showed me I have everything I need for a card ministry. Pens, paint, paper, the gife of verse, just everything.

Possibly not the a lot of the recipients, but I know He will supply them. In addition to individuals, we have one nursing home, and one hospital. (two traffic lights:spin:)

So, He has given me purpose anew, in Him and in a ministry for Him. I have drawn so much closer and rediscovered the JOY of the 'get closer to Him prayer', and, not just reading a few verses here and there, but back to studying the word!

I feel refreshed.

Prayers appreciated! :)

God Bless,
Dani





[/size=2]reciated.

ChangedByHim
Oct 6th 2013, 03:52 AM
Beautiful ministry Dani!

Balabusha
Oct 6th 2013, 04:31 AM
I don't think I have any special gifts, my only gift was constant reading and studying the Bible since I was little, and my trump card in life is not what I have-it is what I don't have-long standing tradition. So when I am at a synogogue or at the kingdom hall trying to convey the Gospel, I am not fighting an (apostate) tradition with another (Orthodox)tradition, I hit them from out of nowhere-so they have not developed an apologetic against it yet.
I am just a housewife so my day in the sun ended before it ever got going-but I now spread the Gospel to our kids.

Aviyah
Oct 6th 2013, 04:44 AM
I don't think I have any special gifts, my only gift was constant reading and studying the Bible since I was little, and my trump card in life is not what I have-it is what I don't have-long standing tradition.

Ditto ❤⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣

Dani
Oct 6th 2013, 04:56 AM
I don't think I have any special gifts, my only gift was constant reading and studying the Bible since I was little, and my trump card in life is not what I have-it is what I don't have-long standing tradition. So when I am at a synogogue or at the kingdom hall trying to convey the Gospel, I am not fighting an (apostate) tradition with another (Orthodox)tradition, I hit them from out of nowhere-so they have not developed an apologetic against it yet.
I am just a housewife so my day in the sun ended before it ever got going-but I now spread the Gospel to our kids.

I don't think I have any special gifts, my only gift was constant reading and studying the Bible since I was little, and my trump card in life is not what I have-it is what I don't have-long standing tradition. So when I am at a synogogue or at the kingdom hall trying to convey the Gospel, I am not fighting an (apostate) tradition with another (Orthodox)tradition, I hit them from out of nowhere-so they have not developed an apologetic against it yet.
I am just a housewife so my day in the sun ended before it ever got going-but I now spread the Gospel to our kids.

Your thread is FULL of your gifts and talents- you just don't see them because you live them!

I have a dog.
Sometimes, when she has gotten wet, she smells like a dog! I don't notice it because I live with it .

Your gifts shine like the stars at night....


Aviyah..were you to post, I think for sure I would see / say the same thing about you.

We somtetimes forget that the simple art of being a friend, someone who can be trusted with a person's secrets, to share their joys and their pain, is such a talelnt. Not every one possess it. If you take inventory, I think you wil see yourself in a different light, a light God sees you in! :)

Boo
Oct 6th 2013, 10:16 AM
My ministry starts when I wake up and continues as I go to work. Sometimes, I even use words. ;)

I have been given the opportunity to host a little gathering place for the poor and homeless to come to for coffee, water, juice, and snacks while waiting for the church food distribution center to open. I am working on making it a weekly thing with illustrative video and subsequent discussions about life's problems and the bible's answers for them.

Twice a week, I have been blessed to hold discipleship classes for the new Christians so that they are no longer dumped after they are dunked.

ristenk
Oct 6th 2013, 10:52 AM
We have all been gifted by God to serve within the Body. No one is more important than any other; the differences are in function only.

(Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4)

What at is your ministry? Are you currently functioning in your ministry?

Street evangelism... I hand out tracks in front of the mall during my lunch break... I've been out a handful of times and use the way of the master technique... I'm slowly getting better :)

Anyone around Anne Arundel Mills,Baltimore,Maryland and want to join me? The training is effective and fun :)

keck553
Oct 6th 2013, 02:50 PM
Our first and most important ministry is to our family. That is not an option, it is a requirement.

ChangedByHim
Oct 6th 2013, 03:32 PM
Our first and most important ministry is to our family. That is not an option, it is a requirement.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but how do you mesh that with this statement of Jesus?

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. (Luke 14:26 NKJV)

Balabusha
Oct 6th 2013, 05:49 PM
I hope no one minds if I butt in,
This one is easy, Jesus is stating that we need to put Him in a position of Prime importance, we can't let our family stop us from following Christ-so if our whole family denies and hates Jesus we should be prepared to follow Him and not our family. This was true for me, I still loved my family but I loved Jesus more-this is a metaphor with "teeth" if Jesus was literal in this instance-then He would be contradicting the Law of Moses-which He was the Author of.
On the flip side-our mission field starts at home, I can only speak from a perspective as a wife and Mother-as I made thee choice to become a wife and Mother-my role in life changed. I can't go out and spread the Gospel at the expense of my family-this did happen when I first became a Mother-i would study and pray before going out to evangelize, and my hubby came home to no food, and sometimes my baby would cry and I would keep going or be reesentful of spending time with them-dont take this to the extreme either-but it did happen. I am the glue of my home-this is actually embedded in the symbols of the ancient hebrew language of the bible to illustrate a woman/mother.
I can't spread the Gospeel at the expense of my family-or why bother having them if I cannt spend eternity with them.

Curtis
Oct 6th 2013, 06:31 PM
God bless you Curtis.

I like how you weaved the big stuff and small stuff together. Like, "we started a couple churches" and "we bought a couple hamburgers." :D

Yep. my command of the English language is pretty much non existent. I am all over the place. I try to keep it short and sweet.
Yes, I would like two Churches, and two hamburgers super sized with diet coke, no cheese on one of those hamburgers. :)

ChangedByHim
Oct 6th 2013, 09:44 PM
Yep. my command of the English language is pretty much non existent. I am all over the place. I try to keep it short and sweet.
Yes, I would like two Churches, and two hamburgers super sized with diet coke, no cheese on one of those hamburgers. :)

Haha. I found it a very interesting read :)

ChangedByHim
Oct 6th 2013, 09:51 PM
I hope no one minds if I butt in,
This one is easy, Jesus is stating that we need to put Him in a position of Prime importance, we can't let our family stop us from following Christ-so if our whole family denies and hates Jesus we should be prepared to follow Him and not our family. This was true for me, I still loved my family but I loved Jesus more-this is a metaphor with "teeth" if Jesus was literal in this instance-then He would be contradicting the Law of Moses-which He was the Author of.
On the flip side-our mission field starts at home, I can only speak from a perspective as a wife and Mother-as I made thee choice to become a wife and Mother-my role in life changed. I can't go out and spread the Gospel at the expense of my family-this did happen when I first became a Mother-i would study and pray before going out to evangelize, and my hubby came home to no food, and sometimes my baby would cry and I would keep going or be reesentful of spending time with them-dont take this to the extreme either-but it did happen. I am the glue of my home-this is actually embedded in the symbols of the ancient hebrew language of the bible to illustrate a woman/mother.
I can't spread the Gospeel at the expense of my family-or why bother having them if I cannt spend eternity with them.

It's easy when we put in into the context of preference. God comes first. That's easy to understand. How about when Jesus says this:

So He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.” (Luke 18:29, 30 NKJV)


Does leaving one's wife and children constitute making your family your first ministry?

Aviyah
Oct 6th 2013, 11:45 PM
Does leaving one's wife and children constitute making your family your first ministry?

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. (Eph. 5:22)
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. (Eph. 5:25)
Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord. (Eph. 6:4)

Sounds like a first ministry to me.

ChangedByHim
Oct 7th 2013, 04:50 AM
Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. (Eph. 5:22)
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. (Eph. 5:25)
Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord. (Eph. 6:4)

Sounds like a first ministry to me.
I'm not disagreeing, but you simply avoided the scripture I posted.

imreedemed
Oct 7th 2013, 01:13 PM
I don't serve in any particular ministry. i love to sing christian music, help the needy and gently tell people about the love of Christ. i stumble and even fall quit often, and at times get hit by the feeling of unworthiness but reading the Word gets me back on track. God bless fam

MaryFreeman
Oct 7th 2013, 01:29 PM
I have a twice a month bible study in my home for my community.... I function in my church as a teacher for toddlers.... I also prepare snacks.... Run errands for the childrens department.... Duplicate sermon cds.... Sing in the choir.... And I come in on tuesdays for prayer ministry....

I am a wife and mother.... Which is my most important work....

Eyelog
Oct 7th 2013, 02:49 PM
We have all been gifted by God to serve within the Body. No one is more important than any other; the differences are in function only.

(Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4)

What at is your ministry? Are you currently functioning in your ministry?

My ministry is a series of mini-series. : )

Eyelog
Oct 7th 2013, 03:08 PM
I hope no one minds if I butt in,
This one is easy, Jesus is stating that we need to put Him in a position of Prime importance, we can't let our family stop us from following Christ-so if our whole family denies and hates Jesus we should be prepared to follow Him and not our family. This was true for me, I still loved my family but I loved Jesus more-this is a metaphor with "teeth" if Jesus was literal in this instance-then He would be contradicting the Law of Moses-which He was the Author of.
On the flip side-our mission field starts at home, I can only speak from a perspective as a wife and Mother-as I made thee choice to become a wife and Mother-my role in life changed. I can't go out and spread the Gospel at the expense of my family-this did happen when I first became a Mother-i would study and pray before going out to evangelize, and my hubby came home to no food, and sometimes my baby would cry and I would keep going or be reesentful of spending time with them-dont take this to the extreme either-but it did happen. I am the glue of my home-this is actually embedded in the symbols of the ancient hebrew language of the bible to illustrate a woman/mother.
I can't spread the Gospeel at the expense of my family-or why bother having them if I cannt spend eternity with them.

Karite, is "Gospeel" a typo? I like it either way! : )

My problem is I went through some serious sifting from which I am still recovering, and I feel I lost control for a while. I don't mean self-control. I mean God-control over me. I still had all my faith, but I was experiencing what my colleague of the footlights, Lawrence Olivier, once called "true stage fright," and I think the peanut gallery noticed that my Shakespeare was not true to the text in some of my words.... I have damaged my witness among those I work with.

But I find it a privilege to watch Jesus overwhelm my past mistakes with His power and grace.

He is truly the God of infinite second chances when we seek Him with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. : )

Eyelog
Oct 7th 2013, 03:09 PM
Yep. my command of the English language is pretty much non existent. I am all over the place. I try to keep it short and sweet.
Yes, I would like two Churches, and two hamburgers super sized with diet coke, no cheese on one of those hamburgers. :)


Use short sentences, and short paragraphs.

Go to bullet or numbered points.

Works wonders, my brother. : )

Eyelog
Oct 7th 2013, 03:11 PM
It's easy when we put in into the context of preference. God comes first. That's easy to understand. How about when Jesus says this:

So He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.” (Luke 18:29, 30 NKJV)


Does leaving one's wife and children constitute making your family your first ministry?

Keep in step with the Spirit, right?

Eyelog
Oct 7th 2013, 03:12 PM
Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. (Eph. 5:22)
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. (Eph. 5:25)
Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord. (Eph. 6:4)

Sounds like a first ministry to me.

Can going on the road sometimes be such first ministry? Billy Graham and the prodigal, Franklin Graham, for starters.

Aviyah
Oct 7th 2013, 03:56 PM
Can going on the road sometimes be such first ministry? Billy Graham and the prodigal, Franklin Graham, for starters.

I don't know, it depends on the person really. I personally would never leave my family for more than a few days for anything work related.

keck553
Oct 7th 2013, 04:44 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you, but how do you mesh that with this statement of Jesus?

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. (Luke 14:26 NKJV)

Well, I won't avoid the Scripture. I'll just tell you that your interpretation is flat out wrong.

First, biblical "hate" is not an absolute, it is a "kal vahomer" (how much more) statement. This is why I stated in another thread it is very important to understand hebrew thought, as Greek thougth can betray the context.

Secondly, since God does not change, we have enburing commandments -

Deuteronomy 6 -

5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

Not to mention this -

(Ephesians 5:25)
"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her"

CBH, show me any hate Christ as for the church and you may have a valid point. But God does not contradict Himself, not does He break His own sacraments (marrage). The only controversy between these verses and the ones you laid out that are "irreconcileable" is your (implied) interepretation of them.

keck553
Oct 7th 2013, 05:07 PM
It's easy when we put in into the context of preference. God comes first. That's easy to understand. How about when Jesus says this:

So He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.” (Luke 18:29, 30 NKJV)


Does leaving one's wife and children constitute making your family your first ministry?

Let's read the Scripture passage again. First of all, Peter did not say he left hisfamily. He said he left all of his "stuff," which is in context with what Jesus told the rich man earlier. In fact we know Peter took his wife with him. Also, in Jesus' reply, the subject is the "Kingdom of God" not "your ministry." We shouldn't confuse these two and thereby cause God's Word to appear in conflict.

God's Word is clear that our first ministry is to our families, both in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

"Therefore what God has put together (echad - as one), let no man tear apart." Even a man who wants to abandon his family to pursue his own ways.

keck553
Oct 7th 2013, 05:11 PM
Keep in step with the Spirit, right?

If a "spriit" contradicts the Word of God, that spirit is not God's. There is nothing more satan lusts after than to destroy God's institution of marrage. It should be pretty obvious, especially these days. Christians are not exempt from that effort.

Again, if we "serve" God outside of His will and outside of His commandments, then we are not serving God

Eyelog
Oct 7th 2013, 05:23 PM
If a "spriit" contradicts the Word of God, that spirit is not God's. There is nothing more satan lusts after than to destroy God's institution of marrage. It should be pretty obvious, especially these days. Christians are not exempt from that effort.

Again, if we "serve" God outside of His will and outside of His commandments, then we are not serving God

This does not contradict my statement that we should stay in step with the Spirit regarding this issue. How many Chinese have left family to spread the Gospel, knowing they'd end up in prison, ... again. Was that wrong? Are you the judge or is the Spirit?

Obviously, every proviso of Scripture can be abused, and is, all the time. But that does not change the truth of the need to follow the Spirit even if it means leaving your family, or leaving anything for that matter. In the end times, this will become even more clear, ... and difficult!

keck553
Oct 7th 2013, 08:52 PM
This does not contradict my statement that we should stay in step with the Spirit regarding this issue. How many Chinese have left family to spread the Gospel, knowing they'd end up in prison, ... again. Was that wrong? Are you the judge or is the Spirit?

Obviously, every proviso of Scripture can be abused, and is, all the time. But that does not change the truth of the need to follow the Spirit even if it means leaving your family, or leaving anything for that matter. In the end times, this will become even more clear, ... and difficult!

The Chinese or anyone else are not spoken of in Scripture as abandoning their families for some other ministry, so your point is not based on sound theology. Just because someone takes an action they feel like taking doesn't mean its right or sanctioned by God.

God does not deny Himself. Nowhere in the Bible does God command anyone to abandon their family for another ministry. In fact the Bible tells us that a man who does so has a worse character than an infidel. Nowhere does the Bible teach us that any of the Apostles or any other believers abandoned their families, and it couldn't be much worse for anyone in the future than it was for them.

We need to obey the Word of God, not our own musings. Again, if some spirit says to disobey the revealed God of His Word it is not the spirit of God speaking.

ChangedByHim
Oct 7th 2013, 09:16 PM
The Chinese or anyone else are not spoken of in Scripture as abandoning their families for some other ministry, so your point is not based on sound theology. Just because someone takes an action they feel like taking doesn't mean its right or sanctioned by God.

God does not deny Himself. Nowhere in the Bible does God command anyone to abandon their family for another ministry. In fact the Bible tells us that a man who does so has a worse character than an infidel. Nowhere does the Bible teach us that any of the Apostles or any other believers abandoned their families, and it couldn't be much worse for anyone in the future than it was for them.

We need to obey the Word of God, not our own musings. Again, if some spirit says to disobey the revealed God of His Word it is not the spirit of God speaking.

It's hard to follow where you are coming from keck. You do realize that Jesus said that a man would be rewarded for leaving his family for the sake of the kingdom of God? This might be an exception, and by no means is it a commandment, but to say that it is against Scripture is incorrect. The example of the Chinese man spreading the gospel even though he knows it may result in imprisonment and consequently separation from family is EXACTLY what Jesus is talking about.

So He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.” (Luke 18:29, 30 NKJV)

keck553
Oct 7th 2013, 09:59 PM
It's hard to follow where you are coming from keck. You do realize that Jesus said that a man would be rewarded for leaving his family for the sake of the kingdom of God? This might be an exception, and by no means is it a commandment, but to say that it is against Scripture is incorrect. The example of the Chinese man spreading the gospel even though he knows it may result in imprisonment and consequently separation from family is EXACTLY what Jesus is talking about.


So He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.” (Luke 18:29, 30 NKJV)




You are reading human doctrine onto the text. Jesus said "kingdom of heaven" not "whatever ministry you want to abandon your family over." Why are you confusing the two terms?

Both Peter and Paul instruct us to love our wives as Christ loves the church. This is a clear and concise command. To abandon your bride for some other ministry would be like saying Christ would abandon his bride for some other ministry. Are you saying it is in the character of Christ to abandon His bride?

ChangedByHim
Oct 7th 2013, 10:10 PM
I'm reading the verse exactly as it is written. No human doctrine added. Are you saying that this statement has no practical application?

I stand behind my example as being scripturallly valid.

Aviyah
Oct 7th 2013, 10:25 PM
I'm reading the verse exactly as it is written. No human doctrine added. Are you saying that this statement has no practical application?

I stand behind my example as being scripturallly valid.

Does the kingdom of heaven also include the family unit?

keck553
Oct 7th 2013, 10:31 PM
I'm reading the verse exactly as it is written. No human doctrine added. Are you saying that this statement has no practical application?

I stand behind my example as being scripturallly valid.

If you are reading it exactly, then do so. It says "kingdom of God/heaven" not "ministry"

And please do not ignore the commandments about a husbands mandate that I posted. Explain why God would give such a command, and then hand out a reward for disobedience.

And yes, the statement does have practical application, but you need to understand that Jesus' audience were 1st century Jews and if you want to pull out the fullness of what He meant, you need to understand the worldview of a 1st century Jew. Unlike most westernized Americans, there were life changing consequences for people joining another religious sect; family consequences, societal consequences and commerce consequences. Everything a Jew did in and out of his home centered on Judaism. Everything. They didn't have anti-discrimination laws. Without that perspective you will not understand what Peter understood when Jesus told him this. This is a salvation centered issue, not a ministry centered issue.

MaryFreeman
Oct 7th 2013, 11:21 PM
If you are reading it exactly, then do so. It says "kingdom of God/heaven" not "ministry"

And please do not ignore the commandments about a husbands mandate that I posted. Explain why God would give such a command, and then hand out a reward for disobedience.

And yes, the statement does have practical application, but you need to understand that Jesus' audience were 1st century Jews and if you want to pull out the fullness of what He meant, you need to understand the worldview of a 1st century Jew. Unlike most westernized Americans, there were life changing consequences for people joining another religious sect; family consequences, societal consequences and commerce consequences. Everything a Jew did in and out of his home centered on Judaism. Everything. They didn't have anti-discrimination laws. Without that perspective you will not understand what Peter understood when Jesus told him this. This is a salvation centered issue, not a ministry centered issue.
This is exactly what I was thinking.... I think for us in the western world the practical application of that verse is the willingness to put ourselves out there for our Savior.... And sometimes.... Unfortunately.... There are new believers whose spouses and/or children do not wish to follow Jesus.... And we must make the commitment to follow Him "Though none go with me".…

ChangedByHim
Oct 7th 2013, 11:25 PM
If you are reading it exactly, then do so. It says "kingdom of God/heaven" not "ministry"

And please do not ignore the commandments about a husbands mandate that I posted. Explain why God would give such a command, and then hand out a reward for disobedience.

And yes, the statement does have practical application, but you need to understand that Jesus' audience were 1st century Jews and if you want to pull out the fullness of what He meant, you need to understand the worldview of a 1st century Jew. Unlike most westernized Americans, there were life changing consequences for people joining another religious sect; family consequences, societal consequences and commerce consequences. Everything a Jew did in and out of his home centered on Judaism. Everything. They didn't have anti-discrimination laws. Without that perspective you will not understand what Peter understood when Jesus told him this. This is a salvation centered issue, not a ministry centered issue.

Just give me an example of doing something for the "sake of the kingdom." Telling what it is not, does not tell me what it is.

So, someone obeying the great commission in a hostile religious environment, such as the Chinese example, is different than what you describe? How so?

You are saying that God would never ever ever tell a man to do anything for the sake of the kingdom that could potentially separate him from his family?

As a footnote, it seems that every positive thread around here has to turn into a debate. *sigh*

ChangedByHim
Oct 7th 2013, 11:29 PM
This is exactly what I was thinking.... I think for us in the western world the practical application of that verse is the willingness to put ourselves out there for our Savior.... And sometimes.... Unfortunately.... There are new believers whose spouses and/or children do not wish to follow Jesus.... And we must make the commitment to follow Him "Though none go with me".…
Two points on this: 1) should we interpret scripture based on western culture? And 2) does the scenarios of a man devoting himself to Jesus at the risk of his unbelieving wife walking away fall into the category of Luke 18?

ChangedByHim
Oct 7th 2013, 11:30 PM
Does the kingdom of heaven also include the family unit?

I really don't understand your question within the context of the passage. Jesus is contrasting them within His statement. Therefore, He was not indicating that they are the same.

Aviyah
Oct 7th 2013, 11:43 PM
I really don't understand your question within the context of the passage. Jesus is contrasting them within His statement. Therefore, He was not indicating that they are the same.

Well, I'm sure there are some situations where the kingdom is not with a family. I used to have a friend from east Africa who was forced to flee from home at age 7 after converting from Islam. That would be a situation where Jesus's words would apply - not intact Christian homes where we are specifically compared to the relationship between God and the Church.

I can't imagine a situation where God would leave the Church, so why would a husband ever leave a wife and children? I can't imagine a situation where the Church would leave God either, so why would a wife leave a husband and children?

Balabusha
Oct 7th 2013, 11:58 PM
Good work keck and Aviyah!
Context,context. Again this is taken as a proof text instead of reading the Bible as a whole-a person will have trouble interpreting the individual verses if they ignore or don't know the Bible as a whole. The funny thing is that this passage is a continuation of the rich young man-why not be honest with using proof texts and reading everything in a wooden literalism and declare that a person can't follow Jesus if they don't sell all their possessions. It literally says this. In context Jesus is flushing out this mans motives-he stated that he followed the law and loved God-Jesus showed him that he loved money more than God.
Jesus's words are in relation to the the people who heard the dialogue of Jesus and the rich man, and asked "who can be saved" Jesus responded that it is impossible for man to be saved, but it is God who makes it possible. For rich or poor salvation is the gift of God.
Peter tells Jesus that they left everything to follow Jesus, Jesus answers that Gods gifts are greater than anything we give up for Him.
I am bound by God to love, honor and respect my Father and Mother-i adore my parents,and the Gospel did get in between us-that did not change to hating my parents-i would be disobeying God if I did this.
As Christian women, we are not to leave an unbelieving husband-but to love them to pieces and hope our love transforms them. To abandon or neglect our family would be a disgrace to our Lord. If we are not to abandon an unbelieving husband-we surely are not to do any different to a believing husband and children.
The Apostle Paul states that a believing woman actually should put her time into producing a family and raising them properly as a priority over getting caught up in church politics-so family is a very important part in serving God-not to neglect or abandon them for heavenly treasure-our family is our heavenly treasure-and raising them with an eternal perspective, as we should focus on things that do not rust or decay-people are the only thing we will see in eternity
Some get disowned for accepting the Gospel-i left my family for Christ-it was stressfull living with my parents as a Christian-ever had an intervention to persuade you to stop the Jesus nonsense? It was a good platform to spread the good news-but I would have lost the show if I would have "hated my family" but I took the words of Jesus in the intended meaning-dont hold family above God, and this was a tool to persuade me.

ChangedByHim
Oct 8th 2013, 12:26 AM
Well, I'm sure there are some situations where the kingdom is not with a family. I used to have a friend from east Africa who was forced to flee from home at age 7 after converting from Islam. That would be a situation where Jesus's words would apply - not intact Christian homes where we are specifically compared to the relationship between God and the Church.

I can't imagine a situation where God would leave the Church, so why would a husband ever leave a wife and children? I can't imagine a situation where the Church would leave God either, so why would a wife leave a husband and children?

Yours is a good example.

The purpose would not be to leave ones wife and family. However, God may call someone to do something that results in either short term or long term separation. To think not would be saying that every martyr who was married was in disobedience to God. What about pastor Saeed Abedini? He is separated from his wife for the sake of the kingdom.

The gospel doesn't always end in happiness on this earth. I realize this conflicts with western Christianity.

Balabusha
Oct 8th 2013, 12:40 AM
Denying Christ for the sake of ones family is a different story than going to China and abandoning your family to do this. A person should not get married if they want to devote their lives away from taking care of their family. I would be in a bad situation if my hubby did that, and he would be in a bad situation if I did this.

ChangedByHim
Oct 8th 2013, 12:51 AM
This is an interesting topic and I would enjoy continuing to discuss. However, I don't think that this is the thread to do so. I will start a new thread on this later tonight. For the record, I have no personal situation related to this discussion. I'm just trying to rightly divide the word and avoid glossing over sayings that conflict with the norm.

keck553
Oct 8th 2013, 01:19 AM
Yours is a good example.

The purpose would not be to leave ones wife and family. However, God may call someone to do something that results in either short term or long term separation. To think not would be saying that every martyr who was married was in disobedience to God. What about pastor Saeed Abedini? He is separated from his wife for the sake of the kingdom.

The gospel doesn't always end in happiness on this earth. I realize this conflicts with western Christianity.

What Saeed did was wrong. There is no example in the Bible of such a thing. Peter traveled with his wife (according to Paul). Being killed for the sake of Christ is nowhere near someone abandoning their family to play evangelist. There are plenty of folks down every one of our streets who are lost. Married men can go witness to them without abandoning their wives and children, but only after they get their own house in order.

again, Scripture is explicit that a man who does not provide for his family (in context - spiritually and provisionally) is worse than an unbeliever. God's words, not mine.

The Bible is explicit as to a man's duty to his family.

ChangedByHim
Oct 8th 2013, 01:29 AM
So even though you didn't answer keck, I am assuming from your response that you think that Gif would never ever ever tell a man to do something that could potentially separate him from his family. Correct me if I'm wrong.

While I agree that your example is the norm, I do not agree that it is absolute. Otherwise Jesus would not say that a man would be rewarded for it.

And you keep wording things very sensationalistically when I am not proposing such. Example: "someone abandoning their family to play evangelist."

We will agree to disagree brother :).

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 8th 2013, 01:46 AM
The direction of this thread has taken a silly turn, for who here in wanting to be close to God will quote Luke 18:29,30 to his wife and leave her?

This is not what Jesus is saying here.

Balabusha
Oct 8th 2013, 02:00 AM
It would be so nice to hear other peoples ministry, not proof texts or making the bible walk on four legs-it would be nice to hear about faith in action!
Changedbyhim-is that you up at the pulpit in the picture?

ChangedByHim
Oct 8th 2013, 02:33 AM
The direction of this thread has taken a silly turn, for who here in wanting to be close to God will quote Luke 18:29,30 to his wife and leave her?

This is not what Jesus is saying here.
I don't believe anyone is saying that. And yes, the thread spins off into a debate as they all do.

Dani
Oct 8th 2013, 02:46 AM
I think the ministry parts were good, and I think, for the most part, the debate was elightening in some respects.

It is good to read differing opinions, and perspectives, especially when 'spoken' in kindness, which, again, for the most part, has been done.:)

God bless you all -
Dani

MaryFreeman
Oct 8th 2013, 03:49 AM
Two points on this: 1) should we interpret scripture based on western culture? And 2) does the scenarios of a man devoting himself to Jesus at the risk of his unbelieving wife walking away fall into the category of Luke 18?
1) Yes.... You aren't being ostracized by your family for following Christ are you? Some in the Middle East and other countries are even murdered by their families.... So they have a different take on that scripture than we do....

2) Yes.... But I agree that no married man or woman should ever walk away from their family.... I have never been led AWAY from my husband.... Even when he didn't believe.... Paul says we can lead our mates to the Lord by our conduct.... And God doesn't break up families in order to get the gospel out.... In fact.... Malachi tells us God makes two people one because He seeks a godly offspring.... It is our first and foremost ministry as "One flesh"....

Berean11
Oct 8th 2013, 03:52 AM
1) Yes.... You aren't being ostracized by your family for following Christ are you? Some in the Middle East and other countries are even murdered by their families.... So they have a different take on that scripture than we do....

2) Yes.... But I agree that no married man or woman should ever walk away from their family.... I have never been led AWAY from my husband.... Even when he didn't believe.... Paul says we can lead our mates to the Lord by our conduct.... And God doesn't break up families in order to get the gospel out.... In fact.... Malachi tells us God makes two people one because He seeks a godly offspring.... It is our first and foremost ministry as "One flesh"....

Beautiful Mary....just beautiful.

Peace, Berean11

Aviyah
Oct 8th 2013, 04:28 AM
Yours is a good example.

The purpose would not be to leave ones wife and family. However, God may call someone to do something that results in either short term or long term separation. To think not would be saying that every martyr who was married was in disobedience to God. What about pastor Saeed Abedini? He is separated from his wife for the sake of the kingdom.

The gospel doesn't always end in happiness on this earth. I realize this conflicts with western Christianity.

Many times I hear of missionaries bringing along their whole families. I actually can't recall very many people in my experience who have gone to other countries without their spouse - unless it was for something like building homes for the homeless, which only lasts about 2 weeks max per trip.

Generally, I notice that the people who are called to extreme missions are not simultaneously called to be married in the first place.

ChangedByHim
Oct 8th 2013, 04:40 AM
1) Yes.... You aren't being ostracized by your family for following Christ are you? Some in the Middle East and other countries are even murdered by their families.... So they have a different take on that scripture than we do....


That would actually be an application, not an interpretation. We should always ask what a particular verse or passage means to us and applies our situation, but that does not negate the fuller meaning within the original context.

And I'm pretty sure that I haven't seen anybody explain what Jesus was referring to in Luke 18. It's easy to say that it doesn't mean such and such, but what exactly is the practical application of a His saying, without completely changing the Master's words.

Balabusha
Oct 8th 2013, 07:10 AM
That would actually be an application, not an interpretation. We should always ask what a particular verse or passage means to us and applies our situation, but that does not negate the fuller meaning within the original context.


And I'm pretty sure that I haven't seen anybody explain what Jesus was referring to in Luke 18. It's easy to say that it doesn't mean such and such, but what exactly is the practical application of a His saying, without completely changing the Master's words.
-This is the problem CBH, you state context, but in reality interpret it in isolation..then you want to attach a double meaning to the passage.

1.The law of Moses promised wealth and security for following God, so the rich man was considered blessed by the standards of people, and he answered that he followed the Law in his response to Jesus..so he felt smug and justified in his own works, and in the works of others-this is why Jesus rebuked Him for calling Him good, he again looked to outward works for his direction.this is why Jesus took this to the next obvious step and asked him to follow Him by selling his possessions. He could not even consider it..so he walked away sad. His actions resembled the Pharisees of chapter 18. Jesus's directives to the man showed the state of His heart
1.He was not generous (love your neighbor)
2.He would not follow God (love the lord with all your heart)
3.So he did not really follow the law of Moses

The people could read the tension in the discussion and would have been shocked that such a righteous and blessed man could not be saved. Jesus made the point ,very clear
that it is impossible for us to save ourselves “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”
-Peter would have needed reassuring after this tension, and stated that they left everything to be with him, and Jesus reassures him that they will be blessed by following Him-contrasting the rich young ruler's decision. In simple terms, Jesus states that this world cant compare to what He has to offer, but this does not mean that we have to sacrifice in order to gain a reward-then this takes you back to the message of the rich young ruler. Jesus does not literally want every Christian to sell every possession in order to follow Him and gain salvation, and He does not want anyone to neglect your family to gain a greater reward. These are tools to drive the point home


That would actually be an application, not an interpretation. We should always ask what a particular verse or passage means to us and applies our situation, but that does not negate the fuller meaning within the original context.


And I'm pretty sure that I haven't seen anybody explain what Jesus was referring to in Luke 18. It's easy to say that it doesn't mean such and such, but what exactly is the practical application of a His saying, without completely changing the Master's words.
-This is the problem CBH, you state context, but in reality interpret it in isolation..then you want to attach a double meaning to the passage.

1.The law of Moses promised wealth and security for following God, so the rich man was considered blessed by the standards of people, and he answered that he followed the Law in his response to Jesus..so he felt smug and justified in his own works, and in the works of others-this is why Jesus rebuked Him for calling Him good, he again looked to outward works for his direction.this is why Jesus took this to the next obvious step and asked him to follow Him by selling his possessions. He could not even consider it..so he walked away sad. His actions resembled the Pharisees of chapter 18. Jesus's directives to the man showed the state of His heart
1.He was not generous (love your neighbor)
2.He would not follow God (love the lord with all your heart)
3.So he did not really follow the law of Moses

The people could read the tension in the discussion and would have been shocked that such a righteous and blessed man could not be saved. Jesus made the point ,very clear
that it is impossible for us to save ourselves “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”
-Peter would have needed reassuring after this tension, and stated that they left everything to be with him, and Jesus reassures him that they will be blessed by following Him-contrasting the rich young ruler's decision. In simple terms, Jesus states that this world cant compare to what He has to offer, but this does not mean that we have to sacrifice in order to gain a reward-then this takes you back to the message of the rich young ruler. Jesus does not literally want every Christian to sell every possession in order to follow Him and gain salvation, and He does not want anyone to neglect your family to gain a greater reward. These are tools to drive the point home

keck553
Oct 8th 2013, 04:02 PM
That would actually be an application, not an interpretation. We should always ask what a particular verse or passage means to us and applies our situation, but that does not negate the fuller meaning within the original context.



May I add that whatever a verse "means to us" also does not negate the full counsel of God including the principals established by His commandments; least we risk commiting the sin of Judges 21:25, which is idolatry and not pleasing at all to God.

ChangedByHim
Oct 8th 2013, 04:11 PM
May I add that whatever a verse "means to us" also does not negate the full counsel of God including the principals established by His commandments; least we risk commiting the sin of Judges 21:25, which is idolatry and not pleasing at all to God.

Of course......


May I add that whatever a verse "means to us" also does not negate the full counsel of God including the principals established by His commandments; least we risk commiting the sin of Judges 21:25, which is idolatry and not pleasing at all to God.

Of course......

keck553
Oct 8th 2013, 04:46 PM
Today is always a good day for men with families to remember the primary role they are called to as husbands, keeping in mind that "love" is a TO DO VERB, not a mental gymnastic:

Ephesians chapter 5 (emphasis mine below)

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church."

1 Corinthians Chapter 7

"The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

1 Timothy 5

"But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever"

Deuteronomy 6

"These words that I am giving you today are to be in your heart. Repeat them to your children. Talk about them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up."

Just to name a few. Abandoning one's family to "pursue a ministry" is breaking all the above commandments and principles. How could God be pleased with that kind of indifference to HIS LAWS? He can't, it is not in His revealed character!

As husbands, our foremost and most important ministry is to our wives and families. If we acknowedge our wives and children as gifts from God, then surely we are charged with being as good stewards of those gifts as we are charged to be good stewards of our spiritual gifts, His Word and of His Salvation. God has no use for someone who can not keep their charge. To whom much is given much is required. That is the joy of the Lord.

ChangedByHim
Oct 8th 2013, 04:55 PM
just to name a few. Abandoning one's family to "pursue a ministry" is breaking all the above commandments and principles. How could God be pleased with that kind of indifference to HIS LAWS? We both know He can't.


All of your scriptures are duly noted and none are disputed. I'm not sure if you feel that you must prove something to me; if so, there's no need. I take my role as seriously as you do.

However, you still haven't addressed the practical application of what Jesus said in Luke 18. Are you saying that there is no application outside of the 1st century? And I will ask you again, is it your position that God will never ever ever tell a man to do something that could potentially separate him from his family?

There's no need to keep beating the drum of the importance of family. I don't see anyone disagreeing with you. I'm simply seeking understanding on this verse. I'm certainly not going to ignore it. What does it mean in today's world?

keck553
Oct 8th 2013, 05:29 PM
My apologies for beating on this one and derailing your thread.

I think Karite answered the application of this verse accurately. There are modern day applications for Christians in families such as Karites' - or Mormons or Muslims.....but as Karite stated correctly, although she abandoned the religion of her family (no doubt they view that action as "hate") for the sake of Jesus, she still practices the commandments to love to her family and she still honors her parents, but the consequences come at great expense. This is a perfect example of "hating" your brother, mother, sister, etc. From their perspective (Judaism) she is an idol worshipper. It's not "hate" in the context of an absolute or an emotion; it is a verb like "love," in that it is based on the tensions her actions of not endulging in her families' religion causes.

She chose Jesus over her family's religion and tradition - in eastern culture, that is viewed as "hate."

Slug1
Oct 8th 2013, 05:36 PM
in eastern culture, that is viewed as "hate."How so?

Balabusha
Oct 8th 2013, 05:44 PM
Here lies the problem, you want an answer in a wooden literalism, or else you will charge us with altering God's words, but then you do a 360 in another passage (the good Samaritan) and create an allegory outside of context,meaning or any literary prompting to do so. Do you see the need for solid rules of interpretation?

In luke 18, both controversial statements are not absolutes-we don't have to sell everything we own to be saved-this was a occasional statement for purpose of teaching about mans effort and God making salvation possible-not people.
This carries on to peters question-and Jesus's reaction to Peter-jesus tells them they will have treasure in heaven for leaving everything for Him-and it was prophetic-many times Jesus states he will divide houses, family will turn you over to authorities-this happened then and it happens now..
To put unreasonable time away from my family,or walk away from my family for God only works if they kick me out for being a Christian.
God can not be divided against Himself, I can't give my vow before God and witnesses in marriage, and then state God calls me away from my vow of marriage-usually this is just my will talking, and no one witnesses this other calling except myself.

keck553
Oct 8th 2013, 05:53 PM
How so?

Because the Sh'ma is central to Judaism - that God is one- and worshipping Jesus is idolatry (from the worldview of Judaism) and idolatry is an expression of hate and rebellion towards God, and by extension - family.

This is not just an eastern expression - I've seen Mormons "divorce" their offspring for becoming Christians, and entire communities shunning them in all ways possible - socially, spiritually, in commerce and in charity. It's not that they choose to leave their family, it's that they choose Jesus and that choice can force excommunicaiton. The act of choosing Jesus over religion is commonly viewed as "hate" even in something as western as Mormonism, because it is seen as a personal insult to the "church" and the family. Though the act is not commonly referred to over here as "hate," the resent and bitterness that ensures takes on that character.

ChangedByHim
Oct 8th 2013, 07:07 PM
My apologies for beating on this one and derailing your thread.


No worries brother. I am guilty as well :)

I did start another thread on this, as I find the hard sayings of Jesus an interesting an topic.

Balabusha
Oct 8th 2013, 07:55 PM
Keck
You know how to explain it better than me-in ancient Hebrew their is no word for hate,love,grace etc. These are abstract and not concrete actions.
The modern Hebrew has changed to western thought, and translating these from abstract to concrete can be very hard. Youngs literal translation does attempt to do this but again it is very hard.

Slug1
Oct 8th 2013, 08:11 PM
Because the Sh'ma is central to Judaism - that God is one- and worshipping Jesus is idolatry (from the worldview of Judaism) and idolatry is an expression of hate and rebellion towards God, and by extension - family.

This is not just an eastern expression - I've seen Mormons "divorce" their offspring for becoming Christians, and entire communities shunning them in all ways possible - socially, spiritually, in commerce and in charity. It's not that they choose to leave their family, it's that they choose Jesus and that choice can force excommunicaiton. Well, the Bible warns us that "Jesus" in any Christian will be "hated" by the world. It's not that the world hates the person, they hate "Jesus" who is in them and since any cult is OF the world... what a Mormon does is not only expected, but for the Christian... enables them to understand that they are "blessed" by such persecution.


The act of choosing Jesus over religion is commonly viewed as "hate" even in something as western as Mormonism, because it is seen as a personal insult to the "church" and the family. Though the act is not commonly referred to over here as "hate," the resent and bitterness that ensures takes on that character.Don't get me talking about religion... I do agree with you. Religion does make people twice as much a son of hell as the leader who leads and given religious group (or cult) and a form of the fruit of this worldliness, is the hate you speak of.

MaryFreeman
Oct 8th 2013, 09:41 PM
That would actually be an application, not an interpretation. We should always ask what a particular verse or passage means to us and applies our situation, but that does not negate the fuller meaning within the original context.

And I'm pretty sure that I haven't seen anybody explain what Jesus was referring to in Luke 18. It's easy to say that it doesn't mean such and such, but what exactly is the practical application of a His saying, without completely changing the Master's words.
Application is the result of interpretation.... This is where God gets personal.... He can provide you with a specific application without taking away from the richness of the text.... There are so many things to be learned from this text.... A few issues to apply it to....

I feel the fullness of the scripture is to put God first in everything you do.... Nothing and no one is more important....

keck553
Oct 8th 2013, 10:16 PM
...... I find the hard sayings of Jesus an interesting an topic.

Amen to that. Therein lay revelation to the mysteries of God.

keck553
Oct 8th 2013, 10:37 PM
Well, the Bible warns us that "Jesus" in any Christian will be "hated" by the world. It's not that the world hates the person, they hate "Jesus" who is in them and since any cult is OF the world... what a Mormon does is not only expected, but for the Christian... enables them to understand that they are "blessed" by such persecution.

Indeed, indeed. Jesus exposes the world's sin, and chief among those sins are the two greatest comandments of the Lord - and that is the root of the "hate" you speak of. Jesus reveals to us that "our way" is a sure path to destruction, and no one with a hard heart wants to be told what to do, especially by a higher authority, and especially in America. What you speak of is simply rebellion. So in that light, when Jesus says the world will hate us for His sake, it is not our "righteousness" they are uncomfortable with; it's Who we represent they are uncomforable with. (assuming we are not self righteous ourselves).



Don't get me talking about religion... I do agree with you. Religion does make people twice as much a son of hell as the leader who leads and given religious group (or cult) and a form of the fruit of this worldliness, is the hate you speak of.

I tell you something. Just saying we're not "religious" is not good enough. After Bible study last Sunday, I felt a deep urgency to pray the closing prayer....and perhaps by no coincidence I was asked to pray the closing prayer. Psalm 51 was deep in my heart and I came to understand that our church will always struggle leading anyone to Christ, let alone discipling them unless we get our house (body of believers) in order. My prayer was one of repentence of my church's body of believers, as a congregation and as individuals - and specifically to let go of some of the tradtions and ways that have come to be cemented into the characters of our elders. Let go of our religion so that there is room for God to show us His ways. Only then can we bring sinners to repentence and convert them....not to our congregation, not to our programs, not to our style of worship, not to our traditions, ...but to the Lord's ways. Everything is about bringing glory to God and enjoying His presence. Nothing should ever smother that opportunity, including crabby elders stuck in their traditions. We all need to have God check our hearts and clean our clocks on a regular basis, least we stumble over our own comfort zones.

The question is this - If Jesus told us He would turn our lives upside down, would we still love Him? We need to be honest. When the mud hits the fan, we tend to fall back to what we were successful or good at. That's where Peter was headed before Jesus asked him three times whether he loved Him. Now I wasn't there to see the interaction, and perhaps I have an overactive imagination, but I imagine Jesus jestured towards Peter's boat and said "Peter, do you love me" (more than this)? "Yes." Jesus then jestured toward Peter's occupational profession and asked, "Peter, do you love me (more than your occupation)? "Yes" One last time, Jesus turns to Peter and asks him "Peter, do you love me" (more than your traditions)? Peter says "You know my heart Lord...." Each one of us must face this question, and search deep in our hearts for a real honest answer when our Lord asks us "do you love me this much?" And as sure as I write this, Jesus will ask this of each and every one of us. If so, then who is prepared to serve the Most High and say "Yes Lord." It's not about church, religion and busy work in ministries. It is about how we answer Jesus when he asks this of us.

This is the truth. Every body of believers must do regular and deep, convicting heart checks. We need to ask the Lord to clean our hearts and give us a right attitude, and then repent from those things He reveals to us to be in error.

Nothing pleases God more than a broken spirit and a contrite heart, and nothing prepares us to present the Good News of Jesus Christ than such a person as this.

Slug1
Oct 9th 2013, 01:51 AM
Indeed, indeed. Jesus exposes the world's sin, and chief among those sins are the two greatest comandments of the Lord - and that is the root of the "hate" you speak of. Jesus reveals to us that "our way" is a sure path to destruction, and no one with a hard heart wants to be told what to do, especially by a higher authority, and especially in America. What you speak of is simply rebellion. So in that light, when Jesus says the world will hate us for His sake, it is not our "righteousness" they are uncomfortable with; it's Who we represent they are uncomforable with. (assuming we are not self righteous ourselves).



I tell you something. Just saying we're not "religious" is not good enough. After Bible study last Sunday, I felt a deep urgency to pray the closing prayer....and perhaps by no coincidence I was asked to pray the closing prayer. Psalm 51 was deep in my heart and I came to understand that our church will always struggle leading anyone to Christ, let alone discipling them unless we get our house (body of believers) in order. My prayer was one of repentence of my church's body of believers, as a congregation and as individuals - and specifically to let go of some of the tradtions and ways that have come to be cemented into the characters of our elders. Let go of our religion so that there is room for God to show us His ways. Only then can we bring sinners to repentence and convert them....not to our congregation, not to our programs, not to our style of worship, not to our traditions, ...but to the Lord's ways. Everything is about bringing glory to God and enjoying His presence. Nothing should ever smother that opportunity, including crabby elders stuck in their traditions. We all need to have God check our hearts and clean our clocks on a regular basis, least we stumble over our own comfort zones.

The question is this - If Jesus told us He would turn our lives upside down, would we still love Him? We need to be honest. When the mud hits the fan, we tend to fall back to what we were successful or good at. That's where Peter was headed before Jesus asked him three times whether he loved Him. Now I wasn't there to see the interaction, and perhaps I have an overactive imagination, but I imagine Jesus jestured towards Peter's boat and said "Peter, do you love me" (more than this)? "Yes." Jesus then jestured toward Peter's occupational profession and asked, "Peter, do you love me (more than your occupation)? "Yes" One last time, Jesus turns to Peter and asks him "Peter, do you love me" (more than your traditions)? Peter says "You know my heart Lord...." Each one of us must face this question, and search deep in our hearts for a real honest answer when our Lord asks us "do you love me this much?" And as sure as I write this, Jesus will ask this of each and every one of us. If so, then who is prepared to serve the Most High and say "Yes Lord." It's not about church, religion and busy work in ministries. It is about how we answer Jesus when he asks this of us.

This is the truth. Every body of believers must do regular and deep, convicting heart checks. We need to ask the Lord to clean our hearts and give us a right attitude, and then repent from those things He reveals to us to be in error.

Nothing pleases God more than a broken spirit and a contrite heart, and nothing prepares us to present the Good News of Jesus Christ than such a person as this.Interesting... check this out: http://bibleforums.org/entry.php/3615-78-The-River

I actually was led to preach on the following Sunday concerning Psalms 51:17

keck553
Oct 10th 2013, 03:04 AM
Interesting... check this out: http://bibleforums.org/entry.php/3615-78-The-River

I actually was led to preach on the following Sunday concerning Psalms 51:17

I would be interested in reading your teaching...if you still have it.

Tony Cross
Oct 11th 2013, 03:20 PM
We have all been gifted by God to serve within the Body. No one is more important than any other; the differences are in function only.

(Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4)

What at is your ministry? Are you currently functioning in your ministry?

I enjoy leading singing (without an instrument of course, Ha, Ha), and I have done Sunday school teaching.. Basically, I'm just your average guy

Boo
Oct 11th 2013, 07:38 PM
I enjoy leading singing (without an instrument of course, Ha, Ha), and I have done Sunday school teaching.. Basically, I'm just your average guy

OW, without an instrument, people could tell how badly I sing!

I've missed you here, brother.

Tony Cross
Oct 11th 2013, 09:32 PM
Thanks Bro appreciate that. Bet you thought I got banned, huh? I just mentioned no instrument
because I might be called to task about it , lol

Thanks Bro appreciate that. Bet you thought I got banned, huh? I just mentioned no instrument
because I might be called to task about it , lol

Tony Cross
Oct 11th 2013, 09:42 PM
OW, without an instrument, people could tell how badly I sing!

I've missed you here, brother.
I don't have a really good soprano voice so I probably have
no business leading. By the way, I do use a tuning fork to make sure I have pitched it right . Singing bass is my favorite.

Ta-An
Oct 15th 2013, 11:12 AM
We have all been gifted by God to serve within the Body. No one is more important than any other; the differences are in function only.

(Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4)

What at is your ministry? Are you currently functioning in your ministry?
It is an awesome privilege to be able to join in God's work where He has placed me.
Just Saturday I realized that the way I worship Him, is not just for my benefit, but that He can use that to bless/heal others.
I use my body as an instrument of worship, thus I dance my worship to God.... and He can use that obedience to move/bless others.
Through the dancing it is not only I that experience fellowship with Him, and receive healing from Him, but by facilitating an opportunity for others to do the same, they too receive healing... see, we only need to be obedient and to "Go" to where God calls/guides us to go.
I also believe that because God knows the plan of our daily lives that He prepares us for it....eg. giving revelation of Scripture in our time spend with Him, that He knows we'll be able to use during the day to comfort/guide/instruct others.