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Oregongrown
Oct 12th 2013, 07:54 PM
this may have been another affirmation for me since I started reading the Word, page to page. I'm not saying I like this guy, don't even know him to be honest, but I did love his message, and I do agree with it 100%. I can't tell you how things are changing for me as I spend more and more time in the Word. denise, ysic PS Comments/stories/experiences/feedback welcome as always;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjtKZO8Nu3Y

TrustGzus
Oct 12th 2013, 08:05 PM
Hey Oregongrown, Francis Chan is a very sound teacher. Again, no teacher is infallible. All of us make mistakes. But this is a reliable man. And I am so glad you're talking about your journey reading through the Bible. I've been reading through the Bible very year since 1986. No teacher impacts us without the Word. The Word is the main thing. Teachers are good, but they are second.

claybevan
Oct 12th 2013, 08:10 PM
Great video, thanks Denise I've not heard him before. Loved the bit about God not answering everyone's prayers.

Oregongrown
Oct 12th 2013, 08:31 PM
Hey Oregongrown, Francis Chan is a very sound teacher. Again, no teacher is infallible. All of us make mistakes. But this is a reliable man. And I am so glad you're talking about your journey reading through the Bible. I've been reading through the Bible very year since 1986. No teacher impacts us without the Word. The Word is the main thing. Teachers are good, but they are second.

Well, I admit I share a lot about reading the Word now, in hopes that others won't wait as long as I did, if they aren't reading it. I wouldn't recommend it if it wasn't changing my life for the better, every day. I mean, I still "fall down" doubt God, etc. but for the most part, there is something very peaceful taking the place of quite a bit of depression, discouragement, and feeling useless. Not to mention feeling more secure everyday, and it sure isn't from money or people around me because I am alone except for the few I know in church, online, and some neighbors:) So I know it is God that is with me, always:) denise, ysic
PS Oh yeah, and I don't have a job yet either to rely on, LOL!!

Aviyah
Oct 12th 2013, 09:39 PM
There's a verse that says He won't listen if we doubt??

Oregongrown
Oct 12th 2013, 09:48 PM
There's a verse that says He won't listen if we doubt??

I don't know, let's check it out;) bbs, denise, ysic

Oregongrown
Oct 12th 2013, 09:54 PM
I don't know, let's check it out;) bbs, denise, ysic

I don't think there is a verse that says if we are not sure, or doubt, that God will NOT hear our prayers. I didn't find one anyway, good catch Aviyah, denise, ysic

Aviyah
Oct 12th 2013, 10:03 PM
I don't think there is a verse that says if we are not sure, or doubt, that God will NOT hear our prayers. I didn't find one anyway, good catch Aviyah, denise, ysic

Just wanted to double check! I haven't heard that before.

Oregongrown
Oct 12th 2013, 10:17 PM
Just wanted to double check! I haven't heard that before.

If I was paying more attention I would have wondered about it as well since I know for certain I have doubted God would answer my prayers, and He has answered them. I imagine there are some that insist that you must not doubt. Still a good catch because to be honest, I have had reservations about Chan's preaching before. I'm not saying he isn't good, there was something though I heard during a women's biblestudy, they showed a film of his (video that went with the study).

It's funny that this is just another good reason for reading the Word for ourselves hey;) God bless, ysic, denise

Curtis
Oct 12th 2013, 11:52 PM
Psa 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Oregongrown
Oct 13th 2013, 12:27 AM
Psa 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

I don't think iniquity is doubt though? Doesn't that mean like if we are harboring hatred for someone, we best make things right before we ask God to answer a prayer for us?

TrustGzus
Oct 13th 2013, 01:02 AM
God healed a man who had zero faith in John 5. God's not looking for excuses to not answer prayers.

Curtis
Oct 13th 2013, 01:06 AM
I don't think iniquity is doubt though? Doesn't that mean like if we are harboring hatred for someone, we best make things right before we ask God to answer a prayer for us?

The word, "iniquity" means ,"trouble, sorrow, evil", but it also has a mathematical meaning, "not equal"
For instance, if you treat one group of people one way, and another group a different way that would be called "iniquity" (not equal)

Aviyah
Oct 13th 2013, 01:19 AM
Psa 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Other translations replace the word "iniquity" with things like "wickedness", "cherished sin", and "evil thoughts." Seems much different than doubt - and also indicates to me it does not apply to those redeemed by Christ.

Curtis
Oct 13th 2013, 01:42 AM
Other translations replace the word "iniquity" with things like "wickedness", "cherished sin", and "evil thoughts." Seems much different than doubt - and also indicates to me it does not apply to those redeemed by Christ.

1Jn 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.
1Jn 5:15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.

Does this mean that if we don't ask according to his will he does not hear us?

Aviyah
Oct 13th 2013, 01:48 AM
Does this mean that if we don't ask according to his will he does not hear us?

I don't believe so, because it would makes this verse exclusive to any other prayer - meaning God only hears questions/requests ("ask").

ContractKeeper
Oct 13th 2013, 01:50 AM
What a blessing to watch that short video and read this thread Oregongrown, God bless you more and more, enabling you to bless us in return.

Curtis
Oct 13th 2013, 01:56 AM
I don't believe so, because it would makes this verse exclusive to any other prayer - meaning God only hears questions/requests ("ask").

How about this one....


Jas 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.
Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.
Jas 1:7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;

TrustGzus
Oct 13th 2013, 03:02 AM
It's interesting the turn this thread took on a side issue that Chan commented about. His point he was making was blindly following self-proclaimed authorities and here we're discussing what prayers God hears when Aviyah posted this . . .


There's a verse that says He won't listen if we doubt??

So, Chan made the comment because he quoted the James passage that Curtis posted. So, let's look at it again . . .


James 1:5–8 (ESV)
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.


So, what does James mean? Aviyah, what do you think?

BCV
Oct 13th 2013, 06:30 AM
If I could give my view – nobody is perfect (obviously) but I believe that God want us to be honest in our lives, if you take David – he sinned, he did everything wrong – murder, adultery etc. but still he is called a “God’s man”

Why, because he was honest, God know our hearts, he know when we are in doubt – as mentioned he doesn’t’ look for excuses not to answer our prayers, he is waiting for us to be honest….

To tell Him that we can’t, that we don’t believe and to hold him to his word

(Or at least I am holding on to this theory as a matter of live.)

ContractKeeper
Oct 13th 2013, 06:42 AM
If I could give my view – nobody is perfect (obviously) but I believe that God want us to be honest in our lives, if you take David – he sinned, he did everything wrong – murder, adultery etc. but still he is called a “God’s man”

Why, because he was honest, God know our hearts, he know when we are in doubt – as mentioned he doesn’t’ look for excuses not to answer our prayers, he is waiting for us to be honest….

To tell Him that we can’t, that we don’t believe and to hold him to his word

(Or at least I am holding on to this theory as a matter of live.)
Amen ! :pp :pp :pp

We cannot be obedient to the Law, but we sure can keep-it/regard-it by our confessions when we trespass/break it, and do not give up trying to repent of it !



God bless and have mercy on us.

Aviyah
Oct 13th 2013, 11:05 AM
So, what does James mean? Aviyah, what do you think?

It doesn't say that God doesn't hear the prayer, though.

EarlyCall
Oct 13th 2013, 12:00 PM
It doesn't say that God doesn't hear the prayer, though.

Could it be you are being too technical and missing the point? If we have some issue in our heart or life and that causes God to hear yet not answer our prayer, or we have some issue in our heart or life that causes God to neither hear nor answer our prayer, what is the difference? There is no difference - both result in unanswered prayer.

We can discuss all day long whether God hear's the one prayer but refuses to answer or whether He does not hear the one prayer and refuses to answer, but both lead us to the same place - unanswered prayer!

A man came to Jesus to be healed. He not only doubted but he also didn't really even believe. Jesus healed him anyway. How can that possibly be in light of the verses quoted in this thread? It can be because the man asked Jesus to help him with his unbelief. The man addressed that problem before he addressed his need for healing.

If we get too technical, we miss what we need most: an understanding of the heart and mind of God. Sometimes we see the words on the page and miss the author of those words.

TrustGzus
Oct 13th 2013, 01:41 PM
It doesn't say that God doesn't hear the prayer, though.

But what does it mean? In a sense, God obviously "hears" the prayer. He is omniscient. So he knows the content of every prayer ever offered up whether by a doubting or non-doubting person. He "hears" the prayer of an atheist in a foxhole. But James means something.

Was Francis Chan wrong in what he said? Did he misinterpret James? If he did (I'm not saying he did), what did James really mean?

Oregongrown
Oct 13th 2013, 02:32 PM
If I could give my view – nobody is perfect (obviously) but I believe that God want us to be honest in our lives, if you take David – he sinned, he did everything wrong – murder, adultery etc. but still he is called a “God’s man”

Why, because he was honest, God know our hearts, he know when we are in doubt – as mentioned he doesn’t’ look for excuses not to answer our prayers, he is waiting for us to be honest….

To tell Him that we can’t, that we don’t believe and to hold him to his word

(Or at least I am holding on to this theory as a matter of live.)

Yes, I am with you BCV, there is a verse where a fella even asks God to help his unbelief:
Mark 9:24
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”

I believe every verse shared on this thread, it is God's Word, and so I believe also, God does not contradict Himself, so I might be "not" understanding. That is how I am learning to study the bible. I believe that we are imperfect, therefore, I do NOT believe anyone can fully "not doubt". I just think that God is encouraging us not to, He loves us, so He is telling us "don't doubt me". I for one still do. Maybe I'll become a perfect "non-doubter", what do you all think;) When I go home to the Lord, maybe then?

Love to all, need to get ready for church soon, I really love getting to come here and share with you all :hug: thank You Lord for my friends, and bless each of them today Father, amen:pray:

Aviyah
Oct 13th 2013, 03:08 PM
Could it be you are being too technical and missing the point?

I'm always critical when reading Scripture, so I want the precise meaning of words. If God doesn't hear prayers if we doubt, then how can we pray that He removes our doubt? Seems like a paradox.

Aviyah
Oct 13th 2013, 03:13 PM
Was Francis Chan wrong in what he said? Did he misinterpret James? If he did (I'm not saying he did), what did James really mean?

I don't know what James meant, but I know that God still answers doubters. Ex, Gideon (Judges 6):

When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, “The Lord is with you, mighty warrior.”

“Pardon me, my lord,” Gideon replied, “but if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian.”

The Lord turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian’s hand. Am I not sending you?”

“Pardon me, my lord,” Gideon replied, “but how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family.”

The Lord answered, “I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites, leaving none alive.”

Gideon replied, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you.”

Gideon is known for his doubt, yet God used Him. So I don't understand why God would suddenly stop using people who doubt.

TrustGzus
Oct 13th 2013, 03:17 PM
I don't know what James meant, but I know that God still answers doubters. Ex, Gideon (Judges 6):

When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, “The Lord is with you, mighty warrior.”

“Pardon me, my lord,” Gideon replied, “but if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian.”

The Lord turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian’s hand. Am I not sending you?”

“Pardon me, my lord,” Gideon replied, “but how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family.”

The Lord answered, “I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites, leaving none alive.”

Gideon replied, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you.”

Gideon is known for his doubt, yet God used Him. So I don't understand why God would suddenly stop using people who doubt.

I think that's a great start. Find some examples to say what it can't mean. That helps get us closer to what he did mean by eliminating one or more options.

Aviyah
Oct 13th 2013, 03:38 PM
I think that's a great start. Find some examples to say what it can't mean. That helps get us closer to what he did mean by eliminating one or more options.

It seems to mean when you have the opposite of faith, when you expect God to do nothing. That's a different connotation to me than "doubt" which suggests we are unsure of the future. I don't know how one could get rid of uncertainty - but I can see how a half-hearted prayer expecting the opposite would be ignored.

EarlyCall
Oct 14th 2013, 11:07 AM
I'm always critical when reading Scripture, so I want the precise meaning of words. If God doesn't hear prayers if we doubt, then how can we pray that He removes our doubt? Seems like a paradox.

I used the word technical and not critical. I was trying to make the point that we can sometimes miss the point and thus understanding if we are too technical. I think you are and you miss any point I tried to make in my post.

I gave the example of the man that came to Jesus and asked Him to help him with his unbelief and to heal him.

Are you listening? Because you seem to have not been reading my post carefully before.

Jesus healed him. How was it then that Jesus heard this man's plea, and yes, his prayer to the Son of the Living God if he had unbelief in his heart?

The answer is that the man first addressed his greater need of unbelief before he addressed his need for healing. He understood and he asked for his greater need to be met first.

It is not a paradox nor a catch-22 situation for God. What is for us is a need to recognize the greater need in our life first and take that to God and get it resolved, then our prayers for OTHER matters are not hindered.

Boo
Oct 14th 2013, 11:32 AM
Amen, Brother Francis Chan!

He struck exactly on the infighting problems in the church today.

Most of us don't read. Most of the rest read only the parts that they are led to - but not the rest of it. We then establish our beliefs on only half of the story.

Then, for those who have not seen all that the bible actually says, they instead believe some man who claims to know the truth. (They prefer the Cliff Notes)

Why do we suppose that Paul praised those in Berea?

Oregongrown
Oct 14th 2013, 03:54 PM
I'm always critical when reading Scripture, so I want the precise meaning of words. If God doesn't hear prayers if we doubt, then how can we pray that He removes our doubt? Seems like a paradox.

Ok, anyone here want to argue with this, good luck, this is really sums it up for me, amen

thanks Aviyah, lol, I am only laughing because I just love God, He does not make the bible hard for believers, but believers can sometimes surely make it hard;) :hug: denise, ysic

Aviyah
Oct 14th 2013, 06:02 PM
Are you listening? Because you seem to have not been reading my post carefully before.

Yes I am, thank you.

Neither this nor your previous post address the problem that the man was doubting, yet was healed despite "doubtful prayers not being heard." If God does not hear the prayers of the doubtful, how can the doubtful pray to be less doubtful? You did not answer my question, you simply said "because he prayed for his unbelief/doubt - which is a paradox under your premise, because God would not hear those prayers to begin with.

It's obvious to me that God does hear doubtful prayers, but He does not hear empty prayers made out of obligation with no expectations at all. There is a difference. Gideon didn't even pray for his unbelief/doubt - he asked for physical proof multiple times, yet God still answered him. That whole portion of Judges deals with God being faithful despite our skepticism.

ContractKeeper
Oct 15th 2013, 12:30 AM
It's obvious to me that God does hear doubtful prayers, but He does not hear empty prayers made out of obligation with no expectations at all. There is a difference. Gideon didn't even pray for his unbelief/doubt - he asked for physical proof multiple times, yet God still answered him. That whole portion of Judges deals with God being faithful despite our skepticism.

Amen! :pp

God bless you Aviyah.

EarlyCall
Oct 15th 2013, 12:32 AM
Yes I am, thank you.

Neither this nor your previous post address the problem that the man was doubting, yet was healed despite "doubtful prayers not being heard." If God does not hear the prayers of the doubtful, how can the doubtful pray to be less doubtful? You did not answer my question, you simply said "because he prayed for his unbelief/doubt - which is a paradox under your premise, because God would not hear those prayers to begin with.

It's obvious to me that God does hear doubtful prayers, but He does not hear empty prayers made out of obligation with no expectations at all. There is a difference. Gideon didn't even pray for his unbelief/doubt - he asked for physical proof multiple times, yet God still answered him. That whole portion of Judges deals with God being faithful despite our skepticism.

Well, as for my previous posts not addressing the problem, that would be your opinion. I'll leave it go at that because I don't really care.

As for what you say here in your post in your last paragraph I can agree with. But I was never arguing that with you anyway. I probably didn't explain it well and that's why you didn't understand what I was trying to say. That's ok.

ISRAEL
Oct 15th 2013, 12:57 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XlhB6dKxSWE

ISRAEL
Oct 15th 2013, 01:26 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XlhB6dKxSWE

Ta-An
Oct 15th 2013, 11:49 AM
Reading God's Word has so many advantages :pp

To me, it fills up the "Library" in my mind, so that I can recall from there whenever I need Scripture for an applicable situation (Sword of the Spirit)

God's Word is there for me to read....I have NO Excuse if I do not know the truth written in the Bible, because it is there for me to read and to hear.
Once I am reading the Word, God's Spirit will give me guidance...
Then I can adjust my life and get it in line with God's Word/instruction.
.... become Obedient...
...and THEN.... God can use you by working through you to accomplish His purposes.

ContractKeeper
Oct 15th 2013, 12:39 PM
Reading God's Word has so many advantages :pp

To me, it fills up the "Library" in my mind, so that I can recall from there whenever I need Scripture for an applicable situation (Sword of the Spirit)

God's Word is there for me to read....I have NO Excuse if I do not know the truth written in the Bible, because it is there for me to read and to hear.
Once I am reading the Word, God's Spirit will give me guidance...
Then I can adjust my life and get it in line with God's Word/instruction.
.... become Obedient...
...and THEN.... God can use you by working through you to accomplish His purposes.Amen Ta-An !

We need God's word in us for His Holy Spirit to use those words to guide, teach and correct us.

All of His words in us, which requires reading and studying all of God's word from Genesis to Revelations not expecting to understand every word, but just getting those words inside of our minds so when the time comes His Holy Spirit that was sent down to us can use those words deposited in our minds to lead, teach and correct us, and by doing that allow us to bless our fellows and build His kingdom in return.

Reading all of His words: that sounds like a big chore, and it is a big chore, but we are and will remain lost until we read it for ourselves and do not take a man's opinion nor 'foot-notes' as His word, but read it for our selves.

If a man teaches us wrong(and they do), that will not be an excuse for us when we meet our Creator face to face. Especially when His word was sitting on a table or shelf near us our entire lives on earth.

It does take a long time folks, a very long time, but Jesus my Lord and Master says with His own words that if one of His sheep are lost, He will leave all the other who are not lost to go and find the one that is lost to bring that one back to Himself.
That to me:
Tells me that when we were or are lost but still trying to read His words for our selves, that He would even delay His return until we find Him/He finds us.

We find His and His Father's truth in His words, folks.

I always thought that was so cliche and just another way for men to get me to submit to them when they say to me "read your bible" ...it seemed to simple an answer to find God that way.
But that is the way ....the way, the way, the narrow way that leads to our Savior and through Him to His Father, covered by His Son to be restored eternally to fellowship with our Creator.

Still sounds cliche doesn't it, folks ?
...Well it is cliche until you actually begin doing it, doing it just to find Him in it.
Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all of these other things will be added unto you.
Seek Him through His word and not through other men's opinions or 'foot-notes'.
Read it folks, just read it, please, all of it.

Are you offended by reading the word "lost" so many times in this post ? ....If you are, then there is a reason that you are offended:
Our God and Creator is in warfare for your soul right now at this very moment He is in warfare for your soul, your soul !
And He wrote and then sent a letter to you !
...What manner of son or daughter would not even read the very letter that their Father who went off to war for them, what manner of son or daughter would not even read the very letter that He had written to them ?

I am in no way saying to ignore men's opinions or 'foot-notes' but do not trust and depend on those opinions and 'foot-notes' for truth, read His words/His-letter for yourself, and I promise you by His authority: I promise you He will use those words to guide, teach and correct you until He can use you to glorify His name to your fellows, blessing them in return.
...Some of your fellows will despise, reject, slander and hate you for it, and you will have no place to rest your head on earth.

But, He will love you and receive you for it and will give you an eternal place to rest in heaven with Him, amen !

If we have a bible near us and do not constantly read/feed on it for ourselves then we are not lost but we are in reality willfully choosing to live in darkness, or choosing to live as a man-pleasing-disciple of men's opinions and 'foot-notes' rather than choosing to be a disciple of our Lord, King and High-Priest.
Just try using: "well Lord: I was taught this" just try using that excuse when you are face to face with your Creator when your last day has come to you... and it comes !



God bless and have mercy on us.

Oregongrown
Oct 15th 2013, 03:36 PM
Reading God's Word has so many advantages :pp

To me, it fills up the "Library" in my mind, so that I can recall from there whenever I need Scripture for an applicable situation (Sword of the Spirit)

God's Word is there for me to read....I have NO Excuse if I do not know the truth written in the Bible, because it is there for me to read and to hear.
Once I am reading the Word, God's Spirit will give me guidance...
Then I can adjust my life and get it in line with God's Word/instruction.
.... become Obedient...
...and THEN.... God can use you by working through you to accomplish His purposes.

It's true, no wonder I wasn't winning any battles, I didn't have "My Sword"!! Now I won't be caught dead without it;) denise, ysic