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Eyelog
Oct 14th 2013, 03:10 AM
1 Corinthians 4:2-4

2 In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy. 3 But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined anakrínō by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine anakrínō myself. 4 For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines anakrínō me is the Lord.
anakrínō


to investigate, examine, enquire into, scrutinise, sift, question

specifically in a forensic sense of a judge to hold an investigation
to interrogate, examine the accused or witnesses


to judge of, estimate, determine (the excellence or defects of any person or thing






1 Corinthians 11:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+11:28&version=NASB)

But a man must examine dokimázō himself, (to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals; to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy, from dókimos, accepted, pleasing, acceptable) and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.


Well, which is it?

If we should examine ourselves, how does one do that? And what are we searching for?

Walls
Oct 14th 2013, 07:37 AM
Well, which is it?

If we should examine ourselves, how does one do that? And what are we searching for?

Because God has joined Himself to man to attain His goals, he institutes human government and requires that other men (and women) submit to it. So when the Church is founded on resurrection day and the command is given to go into all the world to make disciples of men, the question will always arise; "on whose authority do you do this?" To combat this, God always starts a new move by signs and wonders above the natural. It was so in Egypt. The question is; "Moses... on what authority do you make such demands?" And the answer in the plagues is, "God, who can devise wonders greater than your magicians!"

In the wilderness Moses is called into question by Korah and company. The signs from heaven are swift and deadly. As Israel advance into the Good Land, the enemies, among whom were Giants and Walled Cities, fell in super-natural defeats. When our Lord Jesus arrives He is accompanied by signs and wonder to confirm Him.

So when the Church is established, the natural opposition is; "who gave you this authority?" So God gave the Apostles signs and wonders to confirm them before men. So Paul, when his authority is called into question, says that he can forgo any "examination". He answers, especially in 2nd Corinthians, "look at yourselves (as converts) and look at my works!" This is the sense of 1st Corinthians 4. Paul's only judge in matters of authority is God. He cares NOT for the judgement of men whether they think he has authority or not.

But in 1st Corinthians 11 the matter is different. It is a dangerous thing to take the Lord's Table. Christians, God's New Testament People, were getting sick and even dying from taking this Table unworthily. Now, not many Christians know it, but just as the Passover of Israel was a compulsory Feast, so too is the Lord's Table. When our Lord instituted His Table, it was not a suggestion. It is a command to do "until He comes" a second time. Like the Passover, it is a "memorial", and the early Church under the Apostles who were taught by Christ, did it daily (Act.2:46). In the context of 1 Corinthians 11:23-32;
"23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."

..... note the following;

verse 23, 24 and 25 - It is a command to eat it, not a suggestion.
verse 28 does not say, "if a man examine himself and is found not worthy he shall not eat." It is "after he examines himself he must eat it in whatever condition he finds himself in." The wisdom of the Lord is seen in this. In Israel of old, a man, if found unclean at the time of the Passover, say by the unexpected death of his father, could eat the Passover a month later. But not the Christian because we Christians are fully clean except the feet (Jn.13:10) - that part that touches the world. So a Christian MUST eat the Lord's Table in whatever condition he/she is in. This is dangerous, so the Lord gives a Christian an out. He allows the Christian to examine him/herself and admit the wrong, and make a conscious decision to make it right, and then eat in safety. Conversely, the Christian can examine him/herself and, knowing they will continue in sin, decide to eat anyway. This of course will bring sickness and ultimately death.

Let's take an example. Joe Soap, a good Christian of ten years, suddenly succumbs and starts an adulterous affair with Mary (names and persons are totally fictitious). Next Sunday he faces the Lord's Table. He MUST eat, but he must examine himself first. He has three options;
Refuse to eat - in which case he transgresses a direct command of the Lord Jesus, and will face the consequences at the judgement seat of Christ at the latest - the loss of the Kingdom (Matt.7:21)
Examine himself, admit the sin and decide to put it right - in which case he eats safely with blessing
Examine himself, admit the sin but decide that Mary's delicacies are too nice and decides to continue - in which case he will get sick and ultimately die (as promised by the Holy Spirit)

You see, the Lord has laid forth blessing and threat. It is so clever. The Christians, if they Broke Bread on a daily basis like Christ commanded, and which the primitive Church did, would be faced with examining themselves EVERY DAY, and would be FORCED to live holy lives, OR ELSE!

claybevan
Oct 14th 2013, 10:15 AM
Because God has joined Himself to man to attain His goals, he institutes human government and requires that other men (and women) submit to it. So when the Church is founded on resurrection day and the command is given to go into all the world to make disciples of men, the question will always arise; "on whose authority do you do this?" To combat this, God always starts a new move by signs and wonders above the natural. It was so in Egypt. The question is; "Moses... on what authority do you make such demands?" And the answer in the plagues is, "God, who can devise wonders greater than your magicians!"

In the wilderness Moses is called into question by Korah and company. The signs from heaven are swift and deadly. As Israel advance into the Good Land, the enemies, among whom were Giants and Walled Cities, fell in super-natural defeats. When our Lord Jesus arrives He is accompanied by signs and wonder to confirm Him.

So when the Church is established, the natural opposition is; "who gave you this authority?" So God gave the Apostles signs and wonders to confirm them before men. So Paul, when his authority is called into question, says that he can forgo any "examination". He answers, especially in 2nd Corinthians, "look at yourselves (as converts) and look at my works!" This is the sense of 1st Corinthians 4. Paul's only judge in matters of authority is God. He cares NOT for the judgement of men whether they think he has authority or not.

But in 1st Corinthians 11 the matter is different. It is a dangerous thing to take the Lord's Table. Christians, God's New Testament People, were getting sick and even dying from taking this Table unworthily. Now, not many Christians know it, but just as the Passover of Israel was a compulsory Feast, so too is the Lord's Table. When our Lord instituted His Table, it was not a suggestion. It is a command to do "until He comes" a second time. Like the Passover, it is a "memorial", and the early Church under the Apostles who were taught by Christ, did it daily (Act.2:46). In the context of 1 Corinthians 11:23-32;
"23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."

..... note the following;

verse 23, 24 and 25 - It is a command to eat it, not a suggestion.
verse 28 does not say, "if a man examine himself and is found not worthy he shall not eat." It is "after he examines himself he must eat it in whatever condition he finds himself in." The wisdom of the Lord is seen in this. In Israel of old, a man, if found unclean at the time of the Passover, say by the unexpected death of his father, could eat the Passover a month later. But not the Christian because we Christians are fully clean except the feet (Jn.13:10) - that part that touches the world. So a Christian MUST eat the Lord's Table in whatever condition he/she is in. This is dangerous, so the Lord gives a Christian an out. He allows the Christian to examine him/herself and admit the wrong, and make a conscious decision to make it right, and then eat in safety. Conversely, the Christian can examine him/herself and, knowing they will continue in sin, decide to eat anyway. This of course will bring sickness and ultimately death.

Let's take an example. Joe Soap, a good Christian of ten years, suddenly succumbs and starts an adulterous affair with Mary (names and persons are totally fictitious). Next Sunday he faces the Lord's Table. He MUST eat, but he must examine himself first. He has three options;
Refuse to eat - in which case he transgresses a direct command of the Lord Jesus, and will face the consequences at the judgement seat of Christ at the latest - the loss of the Kingdom (Matt.7:21)
Examine himself, admit the sin and decide to put it right - in which case he eats safely with blessing
Examine himself, admit the sin but decide that Mary's delicacies are too nice and decides to continue - in which case he will get sick and ultimately die (as promised by the Holy Spirit)

You see, the Lord has laid forth blessing and threat. It is so clever. The Christians, if they Broke Bread on a daily basis like Christ commanded, and which the primitive Church did, would be faced with examining themselves EVERY DAY, and would be FORCED to live holy lives, OR ELSE!
Thank you for this explanation Walls, I needed a reminder!

LandShark
Oct 14th 2013, 11:04 AM
Well, which is it?

If we should examine ourselves, how does one do that? And what are we searching for?

They are not at odds Eyelog. The first is simply a statement about judgement, it is not dealing in the detail of examining or judging oneself for a specific thing, which is what chapter 11 is doing. There, it is speaking about what we would call communion, and the need to make sure you're right with the Lord before partaking. This is two entirely different things.

Boo
Oct 14th 2013, 11:09 AM
Examining ourselves is a good thing. Our ability to do so may be flawed.

I fear that most people who attempt to examine themselves pick a poor base of comparison. How many of us pick Jesus to compare ourselves to, and how many pick someone that they know and admire?

I think we end up, instead of examining ourselves, excusing ourselves with a "nobody is perfect" response.

That, I think, is a good reason to hold communion every week. Perhaps we all need a reason to give thought to our successes and failures frequently.

luigi
Oct 14th 2013, 11:31 AM
Examine yourself honestly, otherwise you will never know the truth.

Eyelog
Oct 14th 2013, 03:39 PM
Next Sunday he faces the Lord's Table. He MUST eat, but he must examine himself first. He has three options;

Refuse to eat - in which case he transgresses a direct command of the Lord Jesus, and will face the consequences at the judgement seat of Christ at the latest - the loss of the Kingdom (Matt.7:21)
Examine himself, admit the sin and decide to put it right - in which case he eats safely with blessing
Examine himself, admit the sin but decide that Mary's delicacies are too nice and decides to continue - in which case he will get sick and ultimately die (as promised by the Holy Spirit)


You see, the Lord has laid forth blessing and threat. It is so clever. The Christians, if they Broke Bread on a daily basis like Christ commanded, and which the primitive Church did, would be faced with examining themselves EVERY DAY, and would be FORCED to live holy lives, OR ELSE!


Hello, Walls.

1. Is there ever a way or time in which we should not examine ourselves? How about those who are too self-conscious?

2. What does it mean to examine oneself in preparation for the Lord's table? What does one do? What faculties of man are involved? How does it work.

3. You say, e.g., "Examine himself, admit the sin and decide to put it right - in which case he eats safely with blessing". I get the sense you are referring to a need to "repent". How does one examine themself in preparation to repent, what does it mean to repent, and how does that "put it right"? Just looking to see what you are thinking on this.

Thanks for the input. : )

Eyelog
Oct 14th 2013, 03:44 PM
This is two entirely different things.

Good point, LandShark. But I was wondering about the significance of Paul not judging himself, BECAUSE "I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines anakrínō me is the Lord."

Isn't this always the case? Why examine yourself if it is really the Lord's job? And the Lord examines us in a way that He gets the clear picture, whereas, we might have a very skewed view of ourself. Yet, Paul says he's okay, bc he is not conscious of anything against himself.

What does it mean to be conscious of something against self? Is this a reference to the conscience? How does that work? how do we become conscious of things against us? what does self-examination have to do with it, and how do you do ut?

As I asked Walls, what is the significance of "examining" oneself for communion? How do you do that, and what do you do with it once you examine? Etc.

Eyelog
Oct 14th 2013, 03:48 PM
Examining ourselves is a good thing. Our ability to do so may be flawed.

I fear that most people who attempt to examine themselves pick a poor base of comparison. How many of us pick Jesus to compare ourselves to, and how many pick someone that they know and admire?

I think we end up, instead of examining ourselves, excusing ourselves with a "nobody is perfect" response.

That, I think, is a good reason to hold communion every week. Perhaps we all need a reason to give thought to our successes and failures frequently.


Excellent points, Boo. I really like how you tie self-examination to judging ourselves by the standard of Christ, and how this obviates the "nobody's perfect" cop-out.

But I am very curious about this. Are there other passages which discuss and explain self-examination. Is it ever prohibited or considered futile in Scripture? E.g., who can know the heart?

Indeed, which faculties are involved in the process and how does it all work? Is repentance the purpose of self-exam? What is repentance in that sense?

LandShark
Oct 14th 2013, 03:53 PM
The main difference for me when reading the verses was one was talking about (and I am putting this in my own words) judgement in an eternal sense. Paul says he doesn't judge himself (anakrinō - judge, examine but in an investigative sense) because God is the one who judges us. Since we are CALLED to judge each other, (how can we correct if we can't judge error) than by bringing God into the picture, Paul is probably dealing with eternal judgement here in the earlier verse. Whereas chapter 11 uses the word dokimazō which means to examine or test, compare... "Am I reflecting God when I walk among the world?" It is just two different things. Blessings!

Eyelog
Oct 14th 2013, 03:56 PM
The main difference for me when reading the verses was one was talking about (and I am putting this in my own words) judgement in an eternal sense. Paul says he doesn't judge himself (anakrinō - judge, examine but in an investigative sense) because God is the one who judges us. Since we are CALLED to judge each other, (how can we correct if we can't judge error) than by bringing God into the picture, Paul is probably dealing with eternal judgement here in the earlier verse. Whereas chapter 11 uses the word dokimazō which means to examine or test, compare... "Am I reflecting God when I walk among the world?" It is just two different things. Blessings!

Thanks for your take on that, LandShark. I have run into folks in the world who feel we should never get involved in self-examination, and call it morbid or psychologism, or an endless black hole of self-analysis. Here Paul says self-exam is categorically inappropriate? maybe not, but I wanted to explore that view. Are there other Scriptures where we advised not to inquire into self, or it is considered futile?

Bro Berryl
Oct 14th 2013, 04:09 PM
A great explanation Wall's, you covered the use of the word examine in both of Paul's letters to the Corinthians very well. I would just like to make a comment about the context of 1 Corinthians 11.

As I read through Paul's letter it seems to me there was a problem with the believers coming together for worship and eating a common meal along with their observation of the Lord's supper.

1 Cor 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
1 Cor 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
1 Cor 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

Paul is clearly saying to them that they should eat their common meal at home. He then gives them a doctrinal explanation of the purpose, preparation, and punishment of what observing communion was all about. Paul is teaching them to examine their motives for taking the Lords supper

1 Cor 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1 Cor 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1 Cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

Paul's hope was that they would correctly observe the Lord's supper and avoid condemnation

1 Cor 11:33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
1 Cor 11:34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

LandShark
Oct 14th 2013, 05:30 PM
Thanks for your take on that, LandShark. I have run into folks in the world who feel we should never get involved in self-examination, and call it morbid or psychologism, or an endless black hole of self-analysis. Here Paul says self-exam is categorically inappropriate? maybe not, but I wanted to explore that view. Are there other Scriptures where we advised not to inquire into self, or it is considered futile?

Actually it would be the opposite. All throughout Scripture we are called to examine ourselves. How can we repent of a wrong doing unless we take inventory? This Eyelog, is like those who scream "DON'T JUDGE!" Well, it says to judge, it just says "no unto condemnation." It's like we get this great teaching but only apply it half way. Of course we examine not only ourselves but out community, our brethren. How can we correct or even rebuke when necessary (2 Tim 3:16) if we don't judge, don't examine? Blessings!

Gadgeteer
Oct 14th 2013, 07:57 PM
Well, which is it?

If we should examine ourselves, how does one do that? And what are we searching for?

We "examine ourselves, TEST ourselves, to see if Christ is in us" --- 2Cor13:5!

This is the same admonition as Peter makes in 2:1:5-11. We measure our position by our fruits; almost as though what Jesus said in Matt7:16-18 says the same (teasing, it is the same!).

Those in Christ have moral excellence; they have knowledge, not ignorance. They are self-controlled. They are persevering. They exhibit godliness. They treat others with kindness and brotherly love. But he who LACKS these qualities [b]has forgotten purification he once HAD --- therefore, against such a man, be diligent to make your salvation "firm/steadfast", judging yourself by your fruits, that the eisodos-gates of Heaven BE provided to you.

In all of this, our "closeness to Christ" is at issue; our deeds reveal where we are!

Speaking of "ignorance" --- see Eph4:17ff, "do not walk as the heathens do, darkened in their ignorance, excluded from the life of God"...

Walls
Oct 14th 2013, 07:58 PM
Hello, Walls.

1. Is there ever a way or time in which we should not examine ourselves? How about those who are too self-conscious?

2. What does it mean to examine oneself in preparation for the Lord's table? What does one do? What faculties of man are involved? How does it work.

3. You say, e.g., "Examine himself, admit the sin and decide to put it right - in which case he eats safely with blessing". I get the sense you are referring to a need to "repent". How does one examine themself in preparation to repent, what does it mean to repent, and how does that "put it right"? Just looking to see what you are thinking on this.

Thanks for the input. : )

1. We should examine ourselves hourly, for this is the time frame that our Lord could come (Rev.3:3). But above I answered specifically to the original posting which asked the difference between the two examinations. As to being self-conscious, the Lord does not want our nakedness exposed. Remember Noah and Ham. The sin is a matter between you and Him and must remain hidden. You need not, and even MUST not tell others, but you will know when you have offended, and/or are offending God.

2.Before the Lord instituted the Lord's Table (bread/body and cup/blood) He washed His disciples feet. Through the death of Christ we (Christians) are all made clean. But because we have been left in the world as a testimony, we cannot but touch the things of the world in our walk (our feet). So as we approach the solemn moment of partaking of the Bread and Cup, we should take a minute (it is quite long actually) to reflect on our activities of the past few days (or weeks or months if your assembly only does it in this takt) and ask the Lord to show us our defilements. It could range from lying in business dealings, or a lust of some sort, or indifference to the things of the Lord, or Lukewarmness, or even things like adultery and murder (Gal.5:21 is written to a Church). If there is a pressing matter, or recurring sin, the Lord will impress it upon your mind. At this moment you are faced with a decision. Are you prepared to put every effort into changing? Are you going to tap the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit and overcome? Or are you enjoying it too much to pay the price to your flesh and soul to walk away from it?

My experience is that we all stumble every day, in great and in small things. Mostly, if you are tuned to the Holy Spirit in your spirit, you will know when the Lord chides with you. It is awful, and produces a contrite heart. But if there is something in your walk that is offending the Holy Spirit (and/or other people) the Lord will shine in your heart and you will know. At this moment you must make a conscious decision to repent. Repent means turn 180º. An about-face.

3. Repent means to face the other way, that is, make a 180º turn. Let's say I was harsh with my wife over some weeks because our relationship is taking a dip (for whatever reason). It could be that I am right, but my wife is the weaker vessel. I am to cherish her like my own body, and cover for her failure. I am to take it as a time of pruning from the Lord and not get revenge. I am to swallow it, even if I am the offended party. All this the Lord will flash into my mind as I wait for the plate of bread to be passed around the Assembly. At this moment I must decide. Shall I dwell in my self-pity and resentment and remain harsh to my wife, or shall I forget my wife's weakness and love her unconditionally? Or, it could be that I mix too much with Gentile drinking buddies, and my testimony as a separate person is taking strain. All this can only come about if I take that minute to examine myself before the bread reaches me. What my reaction is to the prompt of the Lord is crucial.

I always just say to the Lord; "Lord, I take your Table seriously. I don't want to offend you because I love. I don't want to offend you because I fear you. Please impress upon me what needs dealing with in my life." Usually, if there is something, it will jump out at me. I do not force it. It is the Lord's time to speak. If something jumps up in my mind, I must confess at that moment for, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1st John 1:9). And so, even with the matter unresolved, I eat and drink worthily. Once I leave the Meeting, I must then set to work to resolve the matter. It usually involves denying the soul and/or crucifying the flesh.

I do not say that a Christian taking the Lord's Table unworthily will die on the spot like Ananias and Sapphira (Act.5). The Lord is very generous, long-suffering and patient with our weaknesses. What I do say is that your heart's attitude is what counts. If you are contrite and deal with the Lord through the Spirit to overcome the sin, He is behind you, and will give you lots of lee-way. But the minute you decide to continue in that sin and brush off the admonishment of the Holy Spirit, you will soon start the downward spiral to sickness and death.

Hope this helps.

Walls
Oct 14th 2013, 08:08 PM
A great explanation Wall's, you covered the use of the word examine in both of Paul's letters to the Corinthians very well. I would just like to make a comment about the context of 1 Corinthians 11.

As I read through Paul's letter it seems to me there was a problem with the believers coming together for worship and eating a common meal along with their observation of the Lord's supper.

1 Cor 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
1 Cor 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
1 Cor 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

Paul is clearly saying to them that they should eat their common meal at home. He then gives them a doctrinal explanation of the purpose, preparation, and punishment of what observing communion was all about. Paul is teaching them to examine their motives for taking the Lords supper

1 Cor 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1 Cor 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1 Cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

Paul's hope was that they would correctly observe the Lord's supper and avoid condemnation

1 Cor 11:33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
1 Cor 11:34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

I agree. There are many riches in this chapter. I'm sure we have not exhausted them yet. As I break bread regularly with my wife, and I was in an Assembly that broke bread together every Sunday, and I have visited many other Assemblies, I have seen most of these problems over the years. Among the Americans for instance, drunkenness is rare. They still have something of the prohibition mentality left maybe. But in Europe it is common to already have a beer or a glass of wine at morning tea-break. In some Assemblies the Lord's Table is taken on Sunday night, at the end of the day of eating and drinking. So most of all of this Chapter regulates how we approach the solemn matter of "Remembering" that great and awful day on Golgotha.

Curtis
Oct 14th 2013, 08:26 PM
Well, which is it?

If we should examine ourselves, how does one do that? And what are we searching for?

The thing I really dislike doing is my laundry. I's not fun, but needful. Confessing our sins is for sure examining your self. You don't need someone to tell you when you are doing or have done wrong.
The Holy Spirit is there to convict every time. Conffessing our sins is doing our laundry as it is written....

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There are two parts to confessing sin. One: when we confess our sin(s) God forgives us. This is very very important because you can not have fellowship when two people are at odds.
Second: Then God cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

This is what is required before anyone can enter into God's Holy City.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (KJV)
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

This is the King James version, but read how it is translated in all other Bibles.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

By the way, this can be done today if we really believe the truth.

Eyelog
Oct 14th 2013, 11:58 PM
1. We should examine ourselves hourly, for this is the time frame that our Lord could come (Rev.3:3). But above I answered specifically to the original posting which asked the difference between the two examinations. As to being self-conscious, the Lord does not want our nakedness exposed. Remember Noah and Ham. The sin is a matter between you and Him and must remain hidden. You need not, and even MUST not tell others, but you will know when you have offended, and/or are offending God.

2.Before the Lord instituted the Lord's Table (bread/body and cup/blood) He washed His disciples feet. Through the death of Christ we (Christians) are all made clean. But because we have been left in the world as a testimony, we cannot but touch the things of the world in our walk (our feet). So as we approach the solemn moment of partaking of the Bread and Cup, we should take a minute (it is quite long actually) to reflect on our activities of the past few days (or weeks or months if your assembly only does it in this takt) and ask the Lord to show us our defilements. It could range from lying in business dealings, or a lust of some sort, or indifference to the things of the Lord, or Lukewarmness, or even things like adultery and murder (Gal.5:21 is written to a Church). If there is a pressing matter, or recurring sin, the Lord will impress it upon your mind. At this moment you are faced with a decision. Are you prepared to put every effort into changing? Are you going to tap the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit and overcome? Or are you enjoying it too much to pay the price to your flesh and soul to walk away from it?

My experience is that we all stumble every day, in great and in small things. Mostly, if you are tuned to the Holy Spirit in your spirit, you will know when the Lord chides with you. It is awful, and produces a contrite heart. But if there is something in your walk that is offending the Holy Spirit (and/or other people) the Lord will shine in your heart and you will know. At this moment you must make a conscious decision to repent. Repent means turn 180º. An about-face.

3. Repent means to face the other way, that is, make a 180º turn. Let's say I was harsh with my wife over some weeks because our relationship is taking a dip (for whatever reason). It could be that I am right, but my wife is the weaker vessel. I am to cherish her like my own body, and cover for her failure. I am to take it as a time of pruning from the Lord and not get revenge. I am to swallow it, even if I am the offended party. All this the Lord will flash into my mind as I wait for the plate of bread to be passed around the Assembly. At this moment I must decide. Shall I dwell in my self-pity and resentment and remain harsh to my wife, or shall I forget my wife's weakness and love her unconditionally? Or, it could be that I mix too much with Gentile drinking buddies, and my testimony as a separate person is taking strain. All this can only come about if I take that minute to examine myself before the bread reaches me. What my reaction is to the prompt of the Lord is crucial.

I always just say to the Lord; "Lord, I take your Table seriously. I don't want to offend you because I love. I don't want to offend you because I fear you. Please impress upon me what needs dealing with in my life." Usually, if there is something, it will jump out at me. I do not force it. It is the Lord's time to speak. If something jumps up in my mind, I must confess at that moment for, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1st John 1:9). And so, even with the matter unresolved, I eat and drink worthily. Once I leave the Meeting, I must then set to work to resolve the matter. It usually involves denying the soul and/or crucifying the flesh.

I do not say that a Christian taking the Lord's Table unworthily will die on the spot like Ananias and Sapphira (Act.5). The Lord is very generous, long-suffering and patient with our weaknesses. What I do say is that your heart's attitude is what counts. If you are contrite and deal with the Lord through the Spirit to overcome the sin, He is behind you, and will give you lots of lee-way. But the minute you decide to continue in that sin and brush off the admonishment of the Holy Spirit, you will soon start the downward spiral to sickness and death.

Hope this helps.

Walls, you make some great points here. You see the examination as being done largely by God? It seems Gadgeteer sees it as largely done by us. Which is it? Is it both? How so?

And what faculties are being used? Conscience, heart, mind, soul, spirit?

Eyelog
Oct 15th 2013, 12:10 AM
The thing I really dislike doing is my laundry. I's not fun, but needful. Confessing our sins is for sure examining your self. You don't need someone to tell you when you are doing or have done wrong.
The Holy Spirit is there to convict every time. Conffessing our sins is doing our laundry as it is written....

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There are two parts to confessing sin. One: when we confess our sin(s) God forgives us. This is very very important because you can not have fellowship when two people are at odds.
Second: Then God cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

This is what is required before anyone can enter into God's Holy City.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (KJV)
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

This is the King James version, but read how it is translated in all other Bibles.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

By the way, this can be done today if we really believe the truth.

Okay, sir Curtis. What think you of these verses:


The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord,
Searching all the innermost parts of his being.
Proverbs 20:27.




Examine me, O Lord, and try me;
Test my mind and my heart. Psalm 26:2.



Let us examine and probe our ways,
And let us return to the LORD. Lamentations 3:40.

Curtis
Oct 15th 2013, 01:27 AM
Okay, sir Curtis. What think you of these verses:

Proverbs 20:27 is one of my favorite scriptures, you know what other scripture that goes good with it. Read them together like this.

Pro 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
Psa 18:28 For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness.

Of course when the Lord examines us it is not to find out what we would do, because he already knows what we are going to do before we do it. It is for our benefit. I don't know what I am going to do until it happens. So, My prayer is always, Lord do not let me do or say something really dumb or stupid, may what I do be done in the power and anointing of the Spirit of God. I have or put no confidence in my self for anything.

Gadgeteer
Oct 15th 2013, 01:56 AM
Walls, you make some great points here. You see the examination as being done largely by God? It seems Gadgeteer sees it as largely done by us. Which is it? Is it both? How so?

And what faculties are being used? Conscience, heart, mind, soul, spirit?


"Test yourselves, to see if you are in the faith, EXAMINE yourselves! Do you not recognize this, ...that Christ is in you, unless you FAIL THE TEST?" 2Cor13:5

"Fail-the-test", is adokimos --- be disqualified/unapproved (castaway!). To First Century people it conveyed an examination of money --- coins would be gathered and inspected to see if they still bore the image that had been impressed upon them; if the image had worn off, the coin would be "adokimos-disqualified".

It's the same word as in 1Cor9:25-27, we are to race so as to WIN the immortal crown, and Paul himself could be "adokimos-castaway"!

Walls
Oct 15th 2013, 04:13 AM
Walls, you make some great points here. You see the examination as being done largely by God? It seems Gadgeteer sees it as largely done by us. Which is it? Is it both? How so?

And what faculties are being used? Conscience, heart, mind, soul, spirit?

I would say both. The Christian, when he realizes that the Table is about to be celebrated, should turn inwardly to see if there is a matter, or matters, that could make the celebration of this Table vain. (I say "vain" because here we are celebrating the removal of sin and sins while we continue to bask in them) Then, as we approach this Table with our inward inquiry, God will impress upon the believer what hinders.

In 1 Corinthians 11:28, "But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup", it is the man who initiates the examination. And in Philippians 3:15, "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you", we see that even a mature Christian will have shortcomings revealed by God. The Passover lamb was to "examined" for four days for blemishes, but the human eye is fallible, so he can expect God to point to some hidden blemish. Both have a vested interest that the Lamb is without blemish.

The faculties used are the "whole" man, spirit, soul and body (1st Thess.5:23). Man is the "Tabernacle of God". The Tabernacle is made of three parts, (1) outer court (which speaks for the body), (2) the Holy Place (which speaks for the soul), and (3) the spirit (which speaks for the Holy of Holies). When I come to the Lord's Table, I come physically. I then turn my mind (the main part of the soul) to questioning myself. The Lord, Who is Light, and Who dwells in my spirit, responds from this inner sanctuary with an answer. The light - the comprehension, comes into my soul (because the Lampstand is in the Holy Place). I respond by judging the sin brought to light (1st Cor.11:31) with my will - the second par of the soul, because I am contrite in my emotions - the third part of my soul. A knowledge of the furniture of the Tabernacle helps to understand the theory of this, but in practice, even the dullest Christian has the Almighty dwelling in him/her, and He is well able to make Himself known in the inward man.

Of course, if I have spent the week having an affair with another woman, there will be no great revelation from the Lord at the Table. He would have been rebuking me in my spirit all week long and I would be approaching this Table with utter fear if I was clever. In matters like this Gadgeteer is 100% correct. There is no need for a prompt from the Lord if you have just embezzled $100'000.-! You know what you have done already. My reliance on the Lord's prompt is because the big things are behind me and now I seek perfection (maturity) before the Lord. It is the small things which defile me now, and I want then in the light - for small or great, sin defiles me.

Curtis
Oct 15th 2013, 01:21 PM
I would like to add one more thing about the Lords table.

1Co 11:27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
1Co 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
1Co 11:30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
1Co 11:31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged.

If we eat and drink from this table in a "unworthy" way then we will be judged (disciplined) by the Lord. But what is eating in a unworthy way?
Verse 29 tells us what it is, " anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body
First, we confess our sins before partaking, secondly, we must understand that Jesus's stripes that were laid upon his back was for our healing. He bore our sickness, and disease's. He was crushed for our iniquities. If we do not believe this and understand it, then we are eating and drinking from his table in a unworthy way, and this is why many are sick, and many have died.

Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

Eyelog
Oct 16th 2013, 09:10 PM
I would say both. The Christian, when he realizes that the Table is about to be celebrated, should turn inwardly to see if there is a matter, or matters, that could make the celebration of this Table vain. (I say "vain" because here we are celebrating the removal of sin and sins while we continue to bask in them) Then, as we approach this Table with our inward inquiry, God will impress upon the believer what hinders.

In 1 Corinthians 11:28, "But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup", it is the man who initiates the examination. And in Philippians 3:15, "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you", we see that even a mature Christian will have shortcomings revealed by God. The Passover lamb was to "examined" for four days for blemishes, but the human eye is fallible, so he can expect God to point to some hidden blemish. Both have a vested interest that the Lamb is without blemish.

The faculties used are the "whole" man, spirit, soul and body (1st Thess.5:23). Man is the "Tabernacle of God". The Tabernacle is made of three parts, (1) outer court (which speaks for the body), (2) the Holy Place (which speaks for the soul), and (3) the spirit (which speaks for the Holy of Holies). When I come to the Lord's Table, I come physically. I then turn my mind (the main part of the soul) to questioning myself. The Lord, Who is Light, and Who dwells in my spirit, responds from this inner sanctuary with an answer. The light - the comprehension, comes into my soul (because the Lampstand is in the Holy Place). I respond by judging the sin brought to light (1st Cor.11:31) with my will - the second par of the soul, because I am contrite in my emotions - the third part of my soul. A knowledge of the furniture of the Tabernacle helps to understand the theory of this, but in practice, even the dullest Christian has the Almighty dwelling in him/her, and He is well able to make Himself known in the inward man.

Of course, if I have spent the week having an affair with another woman, there will be no great revelation from the Lord at the Table. He would have been rebuking me in my spirit all week long and I would be approaching this Table with utter fear if I was clever. In matters like this Gadgeteer is 100% correct. There is no need for a prompt from the Lord if you have just embezzled $100'000.-! You know what you have done already. My reliance on the Lord's prompt is because the big things are behind me and now I seek perfection (maturity) before the Lord. It is the small things which defile me now, and I want then in the light - for small or great, sin defiles me.

Walls, this is really good stuff as pertains to the Lord's Table. I was wondering what you, Curtis and Gadgeteer might make of this one:


The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord,
Searching all the innermost parts of his being.
Proverbs 20:27.

In what way is our "spirit" the lamp of the Lord, and what are "all the innermost parts" of our "being"?

Curtis
Oct 16th 2013, 09:29 PM
Walls, this is really good stuff as pertains to the Lord's Table. I was wondering what you, Curtis and Gadgeteer might make of this one:



In what way is our "spirit" the lamp of the Lord, and what are "all the innermost parts" of our "being"?

The spirit of man is were God speaks to us. The flesh profits nothing. Revelation from God goes directly into mans re birthed spirit. This is were God illuminates the eyes of our heart so we can see our hope of Glory, which is Jesus Christ who is crowned with Glory and honor. The Lord shall light my candle the Lord shall illuminate my darkness. :)

Psa 18:28 For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness.

If there is any unholy way in you this will also show up. :(

Silvermist
Oct 16th 2013, 10:13 PM
The spirit of man is were God speaks to us. The flesh profits nothing. Revelation from God goes directly into mans re birthed spirit. This is were God illuminates the eyes of our heart so we can see our hope of Glory, which is Jesus Christ who is crowned with Glory and honor. The Lord shall light my candle the Lord shall illuminate my darkness. :)

Psa 18:28 For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness.

If there is any unholy way in you this will also show up. :(

I would rep you again for this if I could. This just happened to me the other day when I was tempted to do something I shouldn't. I was given information that was needed to help me understand and refrain.

Walls
Oct 17th 2013, 06:27 AM
Walls, this is really good stuff as pertains to the Lord's Table. I was wondering what you, Curtis and Gadgeteer might make of this one:


Proverbs 20:27
The spirit of a man is the lamp of the Lord,
Searching all the inner depths of his heart.

In what way is our "spirit" the lamp of the Lord, and what are "all the innermost parts" of our "being"?

An important question, for it gives us the correct interpretation of the 10 Virgins. Man is made a "Vessel" - not an instrument. A vessel is for holding something. Man was designed and made to hold God. But God revealed that His House has three compartments, Outer Court, Holy Place and Holy of Holies. Man too is made of three parts (Gen.2:7; 1st Thess.5:23) - Body, soul and spirit. John 3:3-6 shows that when a man is born again, God only enlivens the spirit of man. And as God dwells in the spirit, it is the PLACE where we worship Him in the New Testament (John 4:23; "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.") This was in context of the PLACE Mt. Gerizim (for the Samaritans) and the PLACE Jerusalem (for the Jews).

So although the physical body is the expression of an invisible soul, it is the spirit of a born-again man where God dwells, and thus, as God is light, it is God's Lamp. From it proceed God's commands and fellowship, and from it also proceeds God's speaking concerning our actions. Thus, Romans Chapter 8 says that we must be led by the Spirit in our spirit. It is both God's Light to light the man and make demands to provoke the man's actions, and it is the seat of inner judgement to light up the man's actions.

This understanding is vital in the parable of the Virgins because some claim that the 5 foolish virgins were unbelievers. But they ALL had their Lamps burning. It was the level of oil, not in the Lamp, but in the vessel, that was different, making them ALL Christians. The difference was not in the Lamps, but in the decision not to expand the quantity of oil in the vessel - the whole being. If the oil speaks of the Holy Spirit in Parable, then it means that the 5 foolish virgins were born again (lamps were burning, even after they fell asleep), but that their souls had not been saturated with the Holy Spirit as well by the transforming work of the Holy Spirit (2nd Cor.3:18).

Within the context of the thread the man turns inwardly to examine himself, and the indwelling God responds with "Light" from the man's spirit and shines on the man's deeds.

Ta-An
Oct 17th 2013, 07:47 AM
Ps 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.


The process has to start with me..... allowing God to search my heart..... I have to be willing to submit myself to the Holy Spirit of God to search my heart.... so when Scripture says that I have to search my heart.... I believe it is when I am submitting to God to search my heart.

Eyelog
Oct 17th 2013, 12:54 PM
Ps 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.


The process has to start with me..... allowing God to search my heart..... I have to be willing to submit myself to the Holy Spirit of God to search my heart.... so when Scripture says that I have to search my heart.... I believe it is when I am submitting to God to search my heart.

So, it is a cooperative effort with the Lord, in which a believer first proactively engages the Lord for insight into their own heart?

Eyelog
Oct 17th 2013, 01:12 PM
An important question, for it gives us the correct interpretation of the 10 Virgins. Man is made a "Vessel" - not an instrument. A vessel is for holding something. Man was designed and made to hold God. But God revealed that His House has three compartments, Outer Court, Holy Place and Holy of Holies. Man too is made of three parts (Gen.2:7; 1st Thess.5:23) - Body, soul and spirit. John 3:3-6 shows that when a man is born again, God only enlivens the spirit of man. And as God dwells in the spirit, it is the PLACE where we worship Him in the New Testament (John 4:23; "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.") This was in context of the PLACE Mt. Gerizim (for the Samaritans) and the PLACE Jerusalem (for the Jews).

So although the physical body is the expression of an invisible soul, it is the spirit of a born-again man where God dwells, and thus, as God is light, it is God's Lamp. From it proceed God's commands and fellowship, and from it also proceeds God's speaking concerning our actions. Thus, Romans Chapter 8 says that we must be led by the Spirit in our spirit. It is both God's Light to light the man and make demands to provoke the man's actions, and it is the seat of inner judgement to light up the man's actions.

This understanding is vital in the parable of the Virgins because some claim that the 5 foolish virgins were unbelievers. But they ALL had their Lamps burning. It was the level of oil, not in the Lamp, but in the vessel, that was different, making them ALL Christians. The difference was not in the Lamps, but in the decision not to expand the quantity of oil in the vessel - the whole being. If the oil speaks of the Holy Spirit in Parable, then it means that the 5 foolish virgins were born again (lamps were burning, even after they fell asleep), but that their souls had not been saturated with the Holy Spirit as well by the transforming work of the Holy Spirit (2nd Cor.3:18).

Within the context of the thread the man turns inwardly to examine himself, and the indwelling God responds with "Light" from the man's spirit and shines on the man's deeds.

So, Walls, you are saying that the believer's spirit is a lamp of the Lord, and this is so because of His indwelling by the Spirit.

Interestingly, the Proverb was written before the giving of the HS, but that's not to say that some did not have the Spirit that way in the OT, or that the OT writer did not, or that it was not prophetic.

Also, the verse goes out of its way to refer to the spirit of man (Adam). Isn't the lamp man's spirit, rather than the HS?

Is this lamp for the believer's benefit or the Lord's?

Is it the lamp which searches the innermost parts or it is the Lord via the lamp? Or, is it the man which searches?

Who is gaining information for their benefit here? the man, the Lord or both?

Ta-An
Oct 17th 2013, 01:42 PM
So, it is a cooperative effort with the Lord, in which a believer first proactively engages the Lord for insight into their own heart? Put it differently.... so I can be sure I understand what you are saying...please

Eyelog
Oct 17th 2013, 02:04 PM
Put it differently.... so I can be sure I understand what you are saying...please

"The process has to start with me" = proactive

"allowing God to search my heart" + "when I am submitting to God to search my heart" + "I have to search my heart" = cooperative.

Therefore, it is a cooperative effort with the Lord, in which a believer first proactively engages the Lord for insight into their own heart?

Ta-An
Oct 17th 2013, 02:09 PM
You know Eyelog....
God gave us His Word.,,,He gave it to me.... I have to pick that Word up to read it... once I read it, and hear it, His Spirit will bring to life His Word to me.
Are you asking me what came first,,, the chicken or the egg??

Ta-An
Oct 17th 2013, 02:12 PM
"The process has to start with me" = proactive

"allowing God to search my heart" + "when I am submitting to God to search my heart" + "I have to search my heart" = cooperative.

Therefore, it is a cooperative effort with the Lord, in which a believer first proactively engages the Lord for insight into their own heart? Like that......... :)

Neanias
Oct 17th 2013, 03:03 PM
To answer the OP... I think the context of both those verses reveals the meaning. :)

In one case, Paul speaks of making a final judgment one oneself and deciding what one's fate in eternity will be. We see that by what he says after: 'judge nothing before it's time'. We are not to judge ourselves as good and faithful servants. Rather when we arrive before the judgment, we are to say 'we are unprofitable servants'.

On the other hand, Paul exhorts us to examine our present state and see if truly we are in the faith. This is to see what is in us, are we presently submitted to God and following him, or is there still now rebellion in us? It is permissible, nay necessary, that we would examine ourselves and bring ourselves to the light so see what our current state is.

So one refers to our current state, in which case 'a spiritual man judges all things', and the other refers to one eternal destiny and the final result of our lives, in which case we are exhorted 'judge not lest you be judged'.

I would say that for the spiritual man this applies both inwardly and outwardly. In both these cases Paul is speaking inwardly, as to judging oneself. But Jesus lays out the same principle outwardly: 'you will know (judge) them by their fruits', that is you will be able to see what their current state is, whether they be in God or not, but 'judge not lest you be judged', that is, do not condemn, and decide ones fate when God might have mercy reserved for them.

Blessings! :)